Hebrew Christianity v. Messianic Judaism

[GerTzedek]

The Hebrew Christian Association of America was started in 1925. In 1975 it changed its name to the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America. Rabbi Mark Kinzer has noted, it was a shift from Christianity as the identity and Hebrew as the descriptor, to Judaism as the identity, and messianic as the descriptor. Do you agree with Mark Kinzer that this is a significant paradigm change?

The Hashivenu website contrasts Hebrew Christianity (that which was) with Messianic Judaism (that which is becoming). What do you think of this paragraph, a description of "Hebrew Chrsitianity"?
Too often the deep structure of Messianic Jewish religious life is indistinguishable from that of popular evangelicalism and bears little or no resemblance to any form of Judaism, past or present. When the world is easily divided into the classes of "saved" and "unsaved," when our speech is peppered with casual references to "what G-d just did" and "what G-d just said," when our exclusive mode of prayer is conversational and begins "Father G-d" and ends "in the precious name of Yeshua," when our kids go to Christian schools because the public schools are filled with "satanic influences," when speculation about the end-times is more natural to us than reciting a berachah -- then we know that the deep structure of our religious life is Hebrew Christian and has been untouched by the drastic changes in the surface structure of our movement.

As you all know, for me, there is a world of difference between Hebrew Christianity and Messianic Judaism. I'm utterly uninterested in Hebrew Christianity, and in fact find it offensive. But I'm more interested in hearing all your responses. This is a thread for you.

[ContraMundum]

Hebrew Christianity was merely Protestantised by the missionary movement, that's all.

I'd love to talk about this, but we'd get shouted down on this forum for daring to discuss it. Best to leave it.

[A_Pioneer]

Deception on a grand scale!
Really good for Lazy Hebrews.
Let Jesus "Do It." Jn 3:16
If he had stayed as a Hebrew Way of Life! Jn.5:24
Sounds like a forfit to me.

Shalom

[ContraMundum]

Deception on a grand scale!
Really good for Lazy Hebrews.
Let Jesus "Do It." Jn 3:16
If he had stayed as a Hebrew Way of Life! Jn.5:24
Sounds like a forfit to me.

Shalom

That's really insulting.

[baruch4]

this forum is not MJ, it is call messianic NOW. can be messianic judaism or messianic christianity both.

[GerTzedek]

this forum is not MJ, it is call messianic NOW. can be messianic judaism or messianic christianity both.
messianic christianity?????? LOL Is there a group called such? I thought all Christianity was messianic by nature, but I've never heard anyone call themself a messianic Christian.

Messianic gentiles are those who gentiles who attach themselves to messianic Jewish congregations.

I have no idea why the forum decided to have the name of "Messianic" rather than "Messianic Judaism." If it was a conscious and deliberate choice, then it sounds kind of miso-Judaism to me.

[Wags]

Hebrew Christians are those Jews that have become Christians. They are fully assimilated into a gentile church.

[GerTzedek]

Or, perhaps as Hashivenu proposes, Hebrew Chrsitians are also those Jewish believers in MJ congregations who are STILL assimilated and don't realize it.

Assimilation must be fought, I think, is the point, and its much, much more subtle than anyone realizes. It's easy to put on a kippah and talit and read from a siddur. What is hard is to change thinking patterns.

[christianmomof3]

Is there an actual religion called Hebrew Christianity? Like would someone go to a "Hebrew Christian" church?
I did a quick search on it and found this Jewish response to it http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/handbook/s_hebrew_christian.html

and this one
http://www.tfmc.us/html/document_library/howtoresp6.html

[GerTzedek]

Is there an actual religion called Hebrew Christianity? Like would someone go to a "Hebrew Christian" church?
I did a quick search on it and found this Jewish response to it http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/handbook/s_hebrew_christian.html

and this one
http://www.tfmc.us/html/document_library/howtoresp6.html
The old name for the MJAA was the Hebrew Christian Association of America, so YES. And there is STILL the Association of Hebrew-Catholics. (Please don't talk to me about them. We do NOT get along.)

IMHO, "Hebrew" denotes those Jews who are assimilated into Gentile Christian thinking, and have forgotten their primary identity as Jews. But that's just me.

Do you realize you posted links to anti-missionary sites? It's not like I'm a friend of J4J (ick!!!! barf!!!) but posting anti-missionary sites in this forum?????

[christianmomof3]

The old name for the MJAA was the Hebrew Christian Association of America, so YES. And there is STILL the Association of Hebrew-Catholics. (Please don't talk to me about them. We do NOT get along.)

IMHO, "Hebrew" denotes those Jews who are assimilated into Gentile Christian thinking, and have forgotten their primary identity as Jews. But that's just me.

Do you realize you posted links to anti-missionary sites? It's not like I'm a friend of J4J (ick!!!! barf!!!) but posting anti-missionary sites in this forum?????
That is why I asked if it was an actual name of a religion or simply a term that is used because on a quick search I did not find any links showing it as a religion, only these anti HC links where it seems to be used as a derrogatory term. The links can be removed if that is not allowed. I am not agreeing with them, but wondered about the term based on that.

[GerTzedek]

That is why I asked if it was an actual name of a religion or simply a term that is used because on a quick search I did not find any links showing it as a religion, only these anti HC links where it seems to be used as a derrogatory term. The links can be removed if that is not allowed. I am not agreeing with them, but wondered about the term based on that.
Hebrew-Christians, because they are still stuck in gentile-Chrsitian mentality, believe that Jews can only be "saved" if they convert to Christianity. They are therefore very strong on missionizing, and a real nuisance to Jews. What is REALLY irritating is their deceptive practices, such as their taking on Jewish traditions NOT because they want to perform mitzvoh, but ONLY as tools for evanglization.

Within UMJC, there is polarization on this. There is what I would call the Jewish wing, Hashivenu, which strongly identifies with Jewish community, and sees Jews as already knowing G-d, and not being needy. As you can see from my taglines below, I identify with Hashivenu. The other group is Dayenu, which is more of an evangelical protestant mindset. They ruin one of my favorite songs, taking that name! They are stuck in the past, still attached to Hebrew Christianity, IMHO.

[mpossoff]

Hebrew-Christians, because they are still stuck in gentile-Chrsitian mentality, believe that Jews can only be "saved" if they convert to Christianity. They are therefore very strong on missionizing, and a real nuisance to Jews. What is REALLY irritating is their deceptive practices, such as their taking on Jewish traditions NOT because they want to perform mitzvoh, but ONLY as tools for evanglization.

Within UMJC, there is polarization on this. There is what I would call the Jewish wing, Hashivenu, which strongly identifies with Jewish community, and sees Jews as already knowing G-d, and not being needy. As you can see from my taglines below, I identify with Hashivenu. The other group is Dayenu, which is more of an evangelical protestant mindset. They ruin one of my favorite songs, taking that name! They are stuck in the past, still attached to Hebrew Christianity, IMHO.

Ger my congregation is MJAA. Our Rabbi is a leader and pretty well known in Messianic circles, Rabbi David Chernoff.

Marc

[muffler dragon]

Do you realize you posted links to anti-missionary sites? It's not like I'm a friend of J4J (ick!!!! barf!!!) but posting anti-missionary sites in this forum?????

I realize this is tangential, but I'm really intrigued by your disdain for J4Judaism. Is there a problem with wanting to "keep Jews Jewish"?

[muffler dragon]

Hebrew-Christians, because they are still stuck in gentile-Chrsitian mentality, believe that Jews can only be "saved" if they convert to Christianity. They are therefore very strong on missionizing, and a real nuisance to Jews. What is REALLY irritating is their deceptive practices, such as their taking on Jewish traditions NOT because they want to perform mitzvoh, but ONLY as tools for evanglization.


Honest question: do you believe that Jews need to recognize Jesus as the Messiah?

[muffler dragon]

Ger my congregation is MJAA. Our Rabbi is a leader and pretty well known in Messianic circles, Rabbi David Chernoff.

Marc

Marc:

May I ask where he got his smicha?

[mpossoff]

Marc:

May I ask where he got his smicha?

Not sure but will find out. He's second generation.

Here is an 'about him'.

http://cby.org/dchernoff.html

Marc

[muffler dragon]

Not sure but will find out.

Thanks.

He's second generation.

Here is an 'about him'.

http://cby.org/dchernoff.html

Marc

I had actually googled his name before I asked the question. I already read the page. Thanks though. :)

[christianmomof3]

Hebrew-Christians, because they are still stuck in gentile-Chrsitian mentality, believe that Jews can only be "saved" if they convert to Christianity. They are therefore very strong on missionizing, and a real nuisance to Jews. What is REALLY irritating is their deceptive practices, such as their taking on Jewish traditions NOT because they want to perform mitzvoh, but ONLY as tools for evanglization.

Within UMJC, there is polarization on this. There is what I would call the Jewish wing, Hashivenu, which strongly identifies with Jewish community, and sees Jews as already knowing G-d, and not being needy. As you can see from my taglines below, I identify with Hashivenu. The other group is Dayenu, which is more of an evangelical protestant mindset. They ruin one of my favorite songs, taking that name! They are stuck in the past, still attached to Hebrew Christianity, IMHO.
So is there an official definition of "Hebrew Christian" anywhere? Because when I did a search all I came up with was those anti-missionary sites that use that particular term.
Honestly when I was Jewish, I thought all Messianic Jews were JFJ and that they all used the Jewish traditions and symbols only to try to deceive Jews and then convert them to Christianity.
Or is Hebrew Christian one of those terms that different people have different understandings of?

[visionary]

I like Messianic Judaism because they, even in name, have everything in the proper order. Messiah first then Judaism.

Hebrew Christian even sound like jewish costurme on roman christian....

[GerTzedek]

So is there an official definition of "Hebrew Christian" anywhere? Because when I did a search all I came up with was those anti-missionary sites that use that particular term.
Honestly when I was Jewish, I thought all Messianic Jews were JFJ and that they all used the Jewish traditions and symbols only to try to deceive Jews and then convert them to Christianity.
Or is Hebrew Christian one of those terms that different people have different understandings of?

What there is, is a HISTORY of the use of the term Hebrew Christianity. A little of it is on the web. A lot of it is not. People switched to the use of the word "Hebrew" in the 1800's because they wanted to be able to discuss Jew stuff without getting hit with all the anti-semitic overtones. In other words, in the 1800's, to be a Jew was bad bad bad, but it was sort of okay if you were "Hebrew" especially if you were a "Hebrew-Christian". As long as you weren't a "Jew."

And so one of the reasons I want to vomit when I hear the word "Hebrew Chrsitian" is that I recognize it as inately ashamed of being Jewish.

[ChazakEmunah]

I realize this is tangential, but I'm really intrigued by your disdain for J4Judaism. Is there a problem with wanting to "keep Jews Jewish"?
I think she meant Jews 4 Je*us. Though you can correct me if I'm wrong Ger.

[muffler dragon]

I think she meant Jews 4 Je*us. Though you can correct me if I'm wrong Ger.

J4Jesus aren't anti-missionary, and the link that christianmom linked to was J4Judaism. ;)

[ContraMundum]

Hebrew-Christians, because they are still stuck in gentile-Chrsitian mentality, believe that Jews can only be "saved" if they convert to Christianity. They are therefore very strong on missionizing, and a real nuisance to Jews. What is REALLY irritating is their deceptive practices, such as their taking on Jewish traditions NOT because they want to perform mitzvoh, but ONLY as tools for evanglization.

Within UMJC, there is polarization on this. There is what I would call the Jewish wing, Hashivenu, which strongly identifies with Jewish community, and sees Jews as already knowing G-d, and not being needy. As you can see from my taglines below, I identify with Hashivenu. The other group is Dayenu, which is more of an evangelical protestant mindset. They ruin one of my favorite songs, taking that name! They are stuck in the past, still attached to Hebrew Christianity, IMHO.


What a terrible mis-representation. This is disgusting.

This whole thread is repulsive.

This forum is stooping lower than I ever could have expected.

[GerTzedek]

What a terrible mis-representation. This is disgusting.

This whole thread is repulsive.

This forum is stooping lower than I ever could have expected.
You need to tell me what I'm misrepresenting.

[ContraMundum]

If you have no idea, I can't help you.

This whole thread is slagging off Jews who decide to become Christians yet reject the Protestant bapti-costalism of the MJ movement, and who have an actual doctrine in regards to what the Church is, has been and always will be, and who don't want to join themselves to a religion that's only been around a couple of decades.

This thread, by extension, is also slagging off the Jews who converted to Christianity prior to the Protestant missions to the Jews and the establishment of the modern-day MJ movement. It is, in fact, accusing them of something I wouldn't honor by mentioning it.

It is also, by inference, making the assumption that the modern-day movement of MJism is a) the true expression of the Christian faith for Jews and b) all others are mere assimilation centres. (What it fails to acknowledge is that MJism is primarily a Gentile movement, thus making that movement come under equal suspicion of being assimilation centres.)

Lastly, what really gets me is this: the only two people who have questioned the incredibly dubious tenet of this thread have been Jews. All the ones criticizing the Jews who do not join the MJ movement are Gentiles. This is so ironic it's disgusting. Again, Gentiles are deciding what's right for Jews.

The fact of the matter is this: Jews who don't join the MJ movement, for good reasons, like theological and historical ones, deserve respect, not derision. You can call them "Hebrew Christians" if you like, but the minute you ascribe that term a derogatory meaning, you merely smite the good name and character of Jewish believers who were around before the 20thC MJ phenomenon occured and also those who see it today as an unsure and unstable place in which to live and die.

Christianity is not a D-I-Y religion, it has a home base, called the Church.

Now, before you go off and get all "but they're not observant if they join the Church", I'll have you know that all of my Jewish friends, bar one, who are believers are not members of the MJ movement, and we are all *way* more observant than our *one* friend who has joined the nearest MJ congregation.

Just because we don't jump up and down in the marketplace with our tefillin on like some Gentiles I've met in the new religions doesn't mean we don't wear them daily. Our observance is not for show, but for our sanctification as people of the Covenant. This is the understanding of every "Hebrew Christian" I know. I think we're doing better than our counterparts in your neck of the woods, frankly.

[visionary]

Here here... it is not the place where the body is... it is the place where the heart is that counts.

[ContraMundum]

Here here... it is not the place where the body is... it is the place where the heart is that counts.

Quick- get the calendar and write this down! I've just agreed with vis again! :thumbsup:

[GerTzedek]

Contra:

You know me better than that, because we've discussed that. I know those in Protestant churches, Anglican Churches, Orthodox Churches, and Catholic Churches, who are Jewish and truly seek to observe all 613 mitzvoh. I absolutely respect that. THAT is NOT what I would call a "Hebrew-Christian," although they certainly aren't MJ either.

A while back I spent some time in the forum for the Association for Hebrew Catholics. I didn't do so hot there, LOL. But it was interesting. Let me contrast two individuals I met there. There was one who, in addition to Mass, also prayed from the Siddur with teffilin, wore talit and kippah 24/7, and responded to the question, "What commandments are we as Jewish believers obligated to" answered "all 613 mitzvot." That is not a Hebrew Catholic, that is a Catholic Jew.

Contrast that with another who essentially did nothing at all, not even light shabbat candles. Her answer was "The new covenant releases believers from the Law." When I asked her what being a Hebrew Catholic meant to her, she replied, "Well, I tell people about it; it gives me a chance to talk about history." THAT is Hebrew Christian. And THAT is the sort of thing that makes me just cry.

[ContraMundum]

Contra:

You know me better than that, because we've discussed that. I know those in Protestant churches, Anglican Churches, Orthodox Churches, and Catholic Churches, who are Jewish and truly seek to observe all 613 mitzvoh. I absolutely respect that. THAT is NOT what I would call a "Hebrew-Christian," although they certainly aren't MJ either.

A while back I spent some time in the forum for the Association for Hebrew Catholics. I didn't do so hot there, LOL. But it was interesting. Let me contrast two individuals I met there. There was one who, in addition to Mass, also prayed from the Siddur with teffilin, wore talit and kippah 24/7, and responded to the question, "What commandments are we as Jewish believers obligated to" answered "all 613 mitzvot." That is not a Hebrew Catholic, that is a Catholic Jew.

Contrast that with another who essentially did nothing at all, not even light shabbat candles. Her answer was "The new covenant releases believers from the Law." When I asked her what being a Hebrew Catholic meant to her, she replied, "Well, I tell people about it; it gives me a chance to talk about history." THAT is Hebrew Christian. And THAT is the sort of thing that makes me just cry.

So, this is about semantics now?

Anyway- ironically the second person sounds like a lot of modern-day Jews I know. Kinda like some of my relatives, actually, who think being Jewish is about having a Jewish doctor and lawyer but leaving all that "religious stuff" for others to do. They pass judgements on the religious members of the family but know deep down that they can always rely on them.

OK, I'm rambling now. I'll shut up. :sorry:

[GerTzedek]

So, this is about semantics now?

Anyway- ironically the second person sounds like a lot of modern-day Jews I know. Kinda like some of my relatives, actually, who think being Jewish is about having a Jewish doctor and lawyer but leaving all that "religious stuff" for others to do. They pass judgements on the religious members of the family but know deep down that they can always rely on them.

OK, I'm rambling now. I'll shut up. :sorry:
No, I think you have a point. Even among Jews who are not believers there are SO MANY who are not observant, who have "forgotten" who they are. It is tragic.

I think its more than just semantics. The first person I described had no problems saying "I am a Jew." The second person was uncomfortable with that. She definitely was a "Hebrew Catholic." I am convinced that "Hebrew" is a substitute when a person is avoiding the reality of what being Jewish really is, consciously or unconsciously.

So in that sense, Hashivenu is appropriately using "Hebrew Chrsitian" to denote those in Messianic Judaism who are avoiding the reality of Jewish life, even if they take on the name of Messianic Jew.

[stone]

Quick- get the calendar and write this down! I've just agreed with vis again! :thumbsup:


*note to self*

:P

[christianmomof3]

Anyway- ironically the second person sounds like a lot of modern-day Jews I know. Kinda like some of my relatives, actually, who think being Jewish is about having a Jewish doctor and lawyer but leaving all that "religious stuff" for others to do.

I also think that many Jews today are similar to nominal Christians.
I am an example of that.
I was raised in Reform Judaism.
I was fully immersed in the Jewish community which consists of Reform, Conservative and Orthodox Jews and as I have stated on here before, I never saw any judging by the Orthodox and Conservative of the Reform and no one ever told me I was not Jewish enough or that I was pitiful or anything like that.

I think actually that the Jewish religion - at least in the community I was raised in, has not done a very good job of educating it's people.

However, that does not make those of us who were raised in it "bad Jews", merely uneducated ones.
Just as Christians who have been raised in nominal Chrisitanity are not "bad" for celebrating Christmas and Easter - they are simply uneducated in regards to them.

As Christians, we are commanded to love one another. That is not just a suggestion. It is a command and it is the highest command of the Lord.
Sadly, I have not seen much of that love here on the Messianic Forum.

I came looking for ways to share my Jewish heritage with my children in a proper way.
Instead I have been repeatedly blasted for not following certain observances and told I am not being Jewish enough and for not meeting with a MJ synagogue.

I have received much more love and acceptance here from the other Jews.

I just spoke to a man who works at the Chabad near my house and I will be taking my children to their High Holiday Fun Day this weekend where they will learn about the high holidays and make crafts. It sounds like it will be fun and will be what I am looking for. I explained to the man from the Chabad that my children had not been raised Jewish,and told him what synagogue I used to attend and that we are Christian but I want my children to learn about the holidays and he said that is great, and that is what they are there for. I am very glad about that.

[ContraMundum]

Thank you for sharing "mom of three", as usual, it is great to hear. :)

[visionary]

Quick- get the calendar and write this down! I've just agreed with vis again! :thumbsup:That is only because I agreed with you...:P

[GerTzedek]

I just spoke to a man who works at the Chabad near my house and I will be taking my children to their High Holiday Fun Day this weekend where they will learn about the high holidays and make crafts. It sounds like it will be fun and will be what I am looking for. I explained to the man from the Chabad that my children had not been raised Jewish,and told him what synagogue I used to attend and that we are Christian but I want my children to learn about the holidays and he said that is great, and that is what they are there for. I am very glad about that.That is just so cool in every way.

One of my girlfriends is a chabad family. I arranged with her that my son could come over to her house after school. He has a lot of freedom as a 16 year old, but he still needs to do his homework first, and someone needs to know where he's going, and a phone number where he can be reached. Well, her husband has made friends with my son -- will miracles never cease? My son has decided that he is "coo'", even with the black hat and payos.

[christianmomof3]

That is just so cool in every way.

One of my girlfriends is a chabad family. I arranged with her that my son could come over to her house after school. He has a lot of freedom as a 16 year old, but he still needs to do his homework first, and someone needs to know where he's going, and a phone number where he can be reached. Well, her husband has made friends with my son -- will miracles never cease? My son has decided that he is "coo'", even with the black hat and payos.
That is great! I am glad you found a place for your son to go after school. I am still trying to work out the logistics of getting a job and what to do about my oldest daughter before school.
I would like to substitute teach in the elementary schools, but they start at 7:45 and the High School starts at 9:00. There is a school bus, but it picks up several blocks from my house and I would have to leave well before my daughter is up and ready and I would not be around to make sure she gets out the door and to the bus stop on time. I am not sure that she is responsible enough to do that and I worry about having her walk the few blocks to the bus stop because one of my husband's co-worker's daughters was attacked after getting of of her bus after school a few years ago (not in my neighborhood, but I imagine it could happen anywhere), and I worry about if it is raining or bad weather etc...

[ChavaK]

I think actually that the Jewish religion - at least in the community I was raised in, has not done a very good job of educating it's people.
Unfortunately this is common throughout the Jewish
world..but thank G-d Chabad is around- they do a
great job. I also see a resurgence among Jews for
the Jewish education they did not receive as children.


However, that does not make those of us who were raised in it "bad Jews", merely uneducated ones.
Agreed- actually a Jew who is uneducated is likened
to a child who was kidnapped and not held liable
for the mitzvot they do not observe due to this
ignorance.


As Christians, we are commanded to love one another.
Jews too....

Sadly, I have not seen much of that love here on the Messianic Forum.
Agreed

Instead I have been repeatedly blasted for not following certain observances and told I am not being Jewish enough and for not meeting with a MJ synagogue.
You are a Christian, not a MJ, and for others here
to expect that you follow what they deem proper
is inexcusable.


I have received much more love and acceptance here from the other Jews.

I just spoke to a man who works at the Chabad near my house and I will be taking my children to their High Holiday Fun Day this weekend where they will learn about the high holidays and make crafts. It sounds like it will be fun and will be what I am looking for. I explained to the man from the Chabad that my children had not been raised Jewish,and told him what synagogue I used to attend and that we are Christian but I want my children to learn about the holidays and he said that is great, and that is what they are there for. I am very glad about that.



Neato! Let us know how your kids do...they will have
a ball and learn much- an excellent combination.
Chabad is very much all about education-that is
most definitely what they are there for and are
an excellent resource.
:wave:

[ChavaK]

Quick- get the calendar and write this down!
Hebrew or Gregorian?

I've just agreed with vis again! :thumbsup:

:swoon: Twice is too much to bear.......:)

[visionary]

Hebrew or Gregorian?


:swoon: Twice is too much to bear.......:)He gets so excited when I agree with him...;)

[ContraMundum]

He gets so excited when I agree with him...;)

True. :wave:

[GerTzedek]

christianmomof3

I don't know if you got the idea that I think you "need" to attend an MJ synagogue, but I don't. I don't care if you attend and Orthodox synagogue, MJ synagogue, church, or move to the remote corners of siberia where you have only polar bears for neighbors. Um, I wouldn't try having a church service with them though; polar bears are not known for being patient with long sermons. :D

With regards to covenant oberserence, it's not me telling you what to do, but G-d's word. You may have Christian beliefs, but you are still a daughter of Israel. In Deuteronomy 29, it clearly states "and those NOT standing here" are included in the Covenant. That's you. If it bothers you, please, I'm not the one to rail at, so please don't go calling me unloving. Take it up with the man upstairs.

If Torah observance is truly offensive for you to hear about, then this is the wrong forum for you to be on. I do hope you stay... I just hope that somehow, it will not remain "offensive." I hope you can come to see each mitzvah as a diamond of opportunity to show love for HaShem. If we love him, we keep his commandments.

[visionary]

My hubby told me a story of camping up in the mountains of Canada. It was dusk and he had gone just outside the campsite to sit on a log and play his guitar while watching the sunset. He was into the moment and heard some noise behind him but was so caught up in the moment he did not realise it was a black bear. Out of the corner of his eye, it dawned on him it was not his buddy who had come to join him but a bear. He kept on playing, and the bear seemed to be enjoying the music. He brought the music to a slow halt, and the bear got up and ambled off. Now how is that for the start of a wonderful weekend.

[christianmomof3]

christianmomof3

I don't know if you got the idea that I think you "need" to attend an MJ synagogue, but I don't. I don't care if you attend and Orthodox synagogue, MJ synagogue, church, or move to the remote corners of siberia where you have only polar bears for neighbors. Um, I wouldn't try having a church service with them though; polar bears are not known for being patient with long sermons. :D

That's you. If it bothers you, please, I'm not the one to rail at, so please don't go calling me unloving. Take it up with the man upstairs.


:hug: No Ger, it was not you who have told me those things. But, others on this forum at different times have said those things.

[ContraMundum]

My hubby told me a story of camping up in the mountains of Canada. It was dusk and he had gone just outside the campsite to sit on a log and play his guitar while watching the sunset. He was into the moment and heard some noise behind him but was so caught up in the moment he did not realise it was a black bear. Out of the corner of his eye, it dawned on him it was not his buddy who had come to join him but a bear. He kept on playing, and the bear seemed to be enjoying the music. He brought the music to a slow halt, and the bear got up and ambled off. Now how is that for the start of a wonderful weekend.


Lucky he wasn't playing a Black Sabbath tune.

[visionary]

Historian David Rausch emphatically believes that

at one end of the spectrum is Hebrew Christianity with a completely assimilated and church-acculturated Jewish convert to Christianity and on the other end of the spectrum is Messianic Judaism with the Jewish Christian maintaining traditional practice and either attending a Messianic congregation and/or a regular synagogue. To make this even more complex, there are Jewish believers in Jesus at various points along this spectrum who are using both terms ("H ebrew Christian" and "Messianic Jew") to describe themselves! David A. Rausch, Messianic Judaism: Its History, Theology, and Polity (Lewiston, NY: Edwin Mellen, 1982), p. 88.

[ContraMundum]

Rausch has missed another option.

He said "To make this even more complex, there are Jewish believers in Jesus at various points along this spectrum who are using both terms ("Hebrew Christian" and "Messianic Jew") to describe themselves"

Which is true

However, there are some (many, actually) Jews who become believers that use both terms but for theological and historical reasons do not consider some MJ congregations to be fitting places of worship for Jews and Gentiles alike. Many of these Jews think that Yeshua's church can be seen by its identifying marks and that some congregations do not have these marks, and thus, attend mainstream or Apostolic churches which are already ingrafted into Israel, all the while maintaining a strict personal halacha consistant with their Jewish birthright.

[GerTzedek]

Rausch has missed another option.

He said "To make this even more complex, there are Jewish believers in Jesus at various points along this spectrum who are using both terms ("Hebrew Christian" and "Messianic Jew") to describe themselves"

Which is true

However, there are some (many, actually) Jews who become believers that use both terms but for theological and historical reasons do not consider some MJ congregations to be fitting places of worship for Jews and Gentiles alike. Many of these Jews think that Yeshua's church can be seen by its identifying marks and that some congregations do not have these marks, and thus, attend mainstream or Apostolic churches which are already ingrafted into Israel, all the while maintaining a strict personal halacha consistant with their Jewish birthright.
CM:

I would agree. Some MJ congregations are NOT appropriate for gentiles -- mine makes it clear that gentiles that are married to Jews, undergoing conversion, or have a special charism to the Jewish people are welcome. Meaning, if you are not in those three categories, perhaps you should consider why you are here. We are a JEWISH community. We have an enormous concern for passing down Jewish identity to the next generation. That is not likely to happen if children are surrounded by a gentile community.

So CM, what is your personal opinion? Are congregations such as mine to be avoided as not being "true churches" because of our tendency to exclude gentiles?

It's okay to be honest. Remember, we don't claim to be a church. We claim to be a synagogue.

[ContraMundum]

CM:

I would agree. Some MJ congregations are NOT appropriate for gentiles -- mine makes it clear that gentiles that are married to Jews, undergoing conversion, or have a special charism to the Jewish people are welcome. Meaning, if you are not in those three categories, perhaps you should consider why you are here. We are a JEWISH community. We have an enormous concern for passing down Jewish identity to the next generation. That is not likely to happen if children are surrounded by a gentile community.

So CM, what is your personal opinion? Are congregations such as mine to be avoided as not being "true churches" because of our tendency to exclude gentiles?

I have no idea about your church/congregation. I would not pass judgement on it.

It's okay to be honest.

It's right to be honest but it's usually (on this forum) wiser to use prudence and remain silent, keeping one's thoughts to oneself. One is often shouted down.

Remember, we don't claim to be a church. We claim to be a synagogue.

That's up to you guys. :)