The Case for Conversion

[Henaynei]

I earnestly encourage any Messianic Gentile for whom the desire to convert has been abiding but who have forestalled it because it meant denying Messiah to read this article with a very humble, prayerful and meek heart.

I encourage all Messianic Jews to read it as well.
It is a very lengthy article but a most necessary read for those mentioned above.

A Case for Conversion (http://www.ourrabbis.org/main/content/view/18/32/) <-full article found here

This article is written with my deepest respect to my Messianic Jewish colleagues who, with heart and soul, are seeking to build something beautiful - modern Messianic Judaism. I also hope these thoughts will be a blessing for many in our synagogues who wonder about the many issues raised in this piece.

The passing of time often change a person's perspective. Several years ago I was privileged to be asked to draft a proposal for the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations Theology Committee on the subject of the conversion of Gentiles to Messianic Judaism. At that time I took a strong position against the practice. Since then I have reevaluated the issues. This essay will detail why I and a growing number of Messianic Jewish leaders have come to believe that offering a formal conversion is essential for the future health and vitality of our movement, the spiritual and emotional well-being of the people in our care, and the good of the Jewish people.

Has the MJ movement matured to this point? Are we ready to stand up and BE a Judaism?

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[GerTzedek]

Thank you, Henaynei.

I'm glad you visited the site. It's really quite something, isn't it? It changes everything. It is an incredible thing they have done. Someday I'll be standing in front of three of those men... I don't know which three, except that my own rabbi will not be one of them, although he is part of the Council.

[Bananna]

Yep there is a problem with the practice of no conversion same as the causion from manditory conversion. Neither fits all.
bananna

[ChavaK]

I disagree with everything in the article. It sets forth a
false premise: "What exactly do we mean by conversion? Conversion is the means where by a
non-Jew moves fully into the status of a Jew amongst the community of Israel with all the privileges and responsiblilities accompanying such a
fundamental change of religious identity".
This will be acceptable only to the messianic community
and not the community of Israel. I think by doing these
"conversions" messianics are going to be driving a wedge between themselves and the Jewish community they
are so anxious to join. The Jewish community will not
accept these conversions, yet these "converts" will
be calling themselves Jews, claiming Judaism as their
religion, when the religion they claim to be part of
rejects them. I can see them claiming themselves to
be Jews (which from their eyes they are) to integrate
into the Jewish society, causing all kinds of problems,
both culturaly and halachicaly, and bringing dishonesty
upon the messianic movement.
I really hope messianics rethink this issue...reading
between the lines, to me the article was saying
"because there are so few Jews in the messianic
congregations, let's make the gentiles "Jews".
I believe they will be making a huge mistake...
and cause pain not only to these "converts" but
to Jews who are going to have to scrutinize even
closer those who claim to be Jews...

[GerTzedek]

Yep there is a problem with the practice of no conversion same as the causion from manditory conversion. Neither fits all.
bananna
I agree.

[GerTzedek]

ChavaK:

The way I look at it is this:

There are zero gentiles involved in this conversion process except the convert. It very much IS those from a Jewish community deciding whether a gentile should or should not be welcome.

Do those Jews have the authority to do so?

You say no.

And you say the same about the Reform community.

And the Conservative community.

So its par for the course to hear you say no. For you, only an orthodox conversion will do.

To say that this has ANYTHING to do with trying to "get more Jews" is just laughable. My dear, really. They turn most away. They make it incredibly difficult. The Orthodox didn't make it this hard.

It is the opposite. They are worried that by allowing conversions that other gentiles will feel they are second class. This was not a unanimous decision. Many were very vocally opposed.

They have begun allowing conversions only because converts have come into their midst they they cannot in good conscience deny are different. Is it not written, "The convert who comes to convert" rather than "the gentile who comes to convert"???

[baruch4]

"The convert who comes to convert" rather than "the gentile who comes to convert"???

true.

[ChavaK]

So its par for the course to hear you say no. For you, only an orthodox conversion will do.




There isn't a lot Orthodox/Conservative/Reform
agree on.....but I can guarantee you there is
one thing they will agree on: that these conversions
are bogus and they will not be acceptable to any
of the branches of Judaism...these people will not
be accepted by the Jewish community as Jews
should it be known that they had this type of
"conversion". This is one of the problems I see
with it- these people will, with good conscience,
state they are Jews and unless someone knows
their background, none will be the wiser...and
know that they are not.
I have already seen this in my own shul- messianics who haven't had a messianic "conversion" coming
in and claiming to be Jews. It was only because
someone was aware of the status of these people
that they were prevented from causing our shul
problems. And when people start having these
"conversions"-the problem is only going to be
magnified.

[baruch4]

And when people start having these
"conversions"-the problem is only going to be
magnified.

understandable.

[ChavaK]

Is it not written, "The convert who comes to convert" rather than "the gentile who comes to convert"???

Who else is going to convert to Judaism, but a gentile?
;)
And what does this have to do with people having
bogus "conversions" to Judaism?

[GerTzedek]

There isn't a lot Orthodox/Conservative/Reform
agree on.....but I can guarantee you there is
one thing they will agree on: that these conversions
are bogus and they will not be acceptable to any
of the branches of Judaism...these people will not
be accepted by the Jewish community as Jews
should it be known that they had this type of
"conversion". This is one of the problems I see
with it- these people will, with good conscience,
state they are Jews and unless someone knows
their background, none will be the wiser...and
know that they are not.
I have already seen this in my own shul- messianics who haven't had a messianic "conversion" coming
in and claiming to be Jews. It was only because
someone was aware of the status of these people
that they were prevented from causing our shul
problems. And when people start having these
"conversions"-the problem is only going to be
magnified.
Ah, we've been through this. :D We will agree to disagree.

[GerTzedek]

Who else is going to convert to Judaism, but a gentile?

Obviously, someone not quite a gentile!

You know, I hear stuff about this "Jewish soul," and my rational brain says, "I've never heard such a bunch of horseradish in my life!" But my heart's intuition says, "That explains everything." I really don't know what to think.

But I can tell you this. If a convert (rather than a gentile) comes to them to convert, it would be wrong for them to send them away.

[Bananna]

I disagree with everything in the article. It sets forth a
false premise: "What exactly do we mean by conversion? Conversion is the means where by a
non-Jew moves fully into the status of a Jew amongst the community of Israel with all the privileges and responsiblilities accompanying such a
fundamental change of religious identity".
This will be acceptable only to the messianic community
and not the community of Israel. I think by doing these
"conversions" messianics are going to be driving a wedge between themselves and the Jewish community they
are so anxious to join. The Jewish community will not
accept these conversions, yet these "converts" will
be calling themselves Jews, claiming Judaism as their
religion, when the religion they claim to be part of
rejects them. I can see them claiming themselves to
be Jews (which from their eyes they are) to integrate
into the Jewish society, causing all kinds of problems,
both culturaly and halachicaly, and bringing dishonesty
upon the messianic movement.
I really hope messianics rethink this issue...reading
between the lines, to me the article was saying
"because there are so few Jews in the messianic
congregations, let's make the gentiles "Jews".
I believe they will be making a huge mistake...
and cause pain not only to these "converts" but
to Jews who are going to have to scrutinize even
closer those who claim to be Jews...

On the contrary. If Reform Jews will convert gentiles who believe in Messiah then some Jews will accept Messianic Jews Converting gentiles also to Judaism.

Jews refusing to recognize the coversions of other Jewish communities would be like a Harvard business Graduate stating that Bill Gates is not a Businessman because he did not get a degree from Harvard.

Messianic Jews are fully Jewish and therefore their sect has the right to determin the Halacha of their community. Refusing to recognize MJ Convert as Messianic Jew would be like the refusal of some Jews to recognize anything but Orthodox converstions and would appear to me to be slanderous. One cannot base such statments that affect a persons standing in the community upon their own Halacha.

bananna

[mpossoff]

I don't agree with this conversion process per say. It denegrates the Messianic movement.

Circumcision is a Torah command, I'm sure we can all agree?

Circumcision should be an act of obedience, for the right reasons. It's not about a gentile becoming a Jew. It's about the eternal sign of the Abrahamic covenant.

Circumcision should be an issue of maturity as Believers are called to “continue” in the faith (1 Corinthians 7:20).

We got to stop referring to conversion as changing your ethnicity, not good for the Messianic community.

Marc

[visionary]

:thumbsup: I don't agree with this conversion process per say. It denegrates the Messianic movement.

Circumcision is a Torah command, I'm sure we can all agree?

Circumcision should be an act of obedience, for the right reasons. It's not about a gentile becoming a Jew. It's about the eternal sign of the Abrahamic covenant.

Circumcision should be an issue of maturity as Believers are called to “continue” in the faith (1 Corinthians 7:20).

We got to stop referring to conversion as changing your ethnicity, not good for the Messianic community.

MarcHad to highlight this... couldn't find a royal color though... tried blue.. too blue,.. tried purple ...nahhh.. :clap: now that is righteous...

[SpiritDriven]

Hi Group,

I am a Gentile, and I know that the Lord has given Israel a spirit of stupor to this very day, and hardened their hearts from fearing him.

This is to suit Gods purpose for them, as with all things God does all things after the counsel of his own will.

Yet why would a Gentile wish to convert to Judaism ?
My understanding of the rapture is that only 144,000 will be selected from Israel to reign with Christ on Earth for the millenium reign....this is surely only a remnant of Israel.

All the believing Gentiles all as one are caught up into heavens at the rapture, it would seem to me there is no real reason for Gentiles to convert ? what with Salvation by Faith alone , a free gift only requiring us to believe, with out any works.

Or do you feel that you are full filling a purpose in regards to Gentiles converting to Judaism ? as in a calling from God to do so.


Peace

[chunkofcoal]

But what are the motives behind the "conversion?" Is it to be accepted as and become a part of Judaism? Isn't that the same kind of thing that Yeshua preached against - doing your works in order to be seen of men?

Mat 6:1-6 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. (2) Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. (3) But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: (4) That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. (5) And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. (6) But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


Mat 23:1-7 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, (2) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. (4) For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. (5) But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, (6) And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, (7) And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

[ChazakEmunah]

On the contrary. If Reform Jews will convert gentiles who believe in Messiah then some Jews will accept Messianic Jews Converting gentiles also to Judaism.

Jews refusing to recognize the coversions of other Jewish communities would be like a Harvard business Graduate stating that Bill Gates is not a Businessman because he did not get a degree from Harvard.

Messianic Jews are fully Jewish and therefore their sect has the right to determin the Halacha of their community. Refusing to recognize MJ Convert as Messianic Jew would be like the refusal of some Jews to recognize anything but Orthodox converstions and would appear to me to be slanderous. One cannot base such statments that affect a persons standing in the community upon their own Halacha.

bananna
Well this should come as no surprise, but I fully agree with Chava on this. A Reform conversion is not legit, and I don't believe that a Conservative conversion is sufficient. Why will an Orthodox conversion only suffice? Because it is only the Orthodox who accept and adhere to halakha. The Reform movement surely doesn't. And the Conservative movement picks and chooses. {Now of course there are people within the Conservative & Reform movements who are moving closer to Orthodox practice. They are a minority but they do exist.}

Now let's throw the Messianic movement into the mix. The Messianic movement at the moment is well... quite messy. It is a mix of Jews (a minority) and Gentiles (a majority). Some have C*hristian beliefs and some don't. One can find all sorts of beliefs in this movement. However, for the most part, all agree on one thing. The belief that Je*us is G-d and the worship of him as such.

This sole factor is considered avodah zerah in Judaism. And while the Reform may be willing to accept some and even convert those with such a belief, both the Orthodox and Conservative will hold such a person at arm's length. And if they don't, they commit a great Chillul HaShem. This belief is completely antithetical to Judaism.

Having said all that, for a group of three men to convene and call themselves a Beit Din (even though they most likely do not hold a valid s'mikha), and these men themselves hold the belief that Je*us is G-d, let alone the potential convert, the whole proceeding is invalidated from the outset.

If I were a potential convert and I knew that the conversion I was undertaking was not considered legitimate by anyone except that group, I too would question it's legitimacy. I would seek out the only group that has kept and preserved Judaism for the last 3500 years and proceed to study with them. But that's just me... ;)

[christianmomof3]

I disagree with everything in the article.
...
I believe they will be making a huge mistake...
and cause pain not only to these "converts" but
to Jews who are going to have to scrutinize even
closer those who claim to be Jews...
I agree with ChavaK here.
My first thought when I read that article was
"Oy! What are they thinking?"
Such a thing will not be accepted by the Jewish religion.
Messianic Judaism is not "a Judaism".
It is not a Jewish religion.
It is a Christian religion that uses Jewish practices.

[ContraMundum]

"Are we ready to stand up and BE a Judaism"

This can only occur if there is mutual recognition. Judaism must recognise and accept what wishes to use its name. Don't hold your breath.

[visionary]

I agree with ChavaK here.
My first thought when I read that article was
"Oy! What are they thinking?"
Such a thing will not be accepted by the Jewish religion.
Messianic Judaism is not "a Judaism".
It is not a Jewish religion.
It is a Christian religion that uses Jewish practices. Yeshua is all about Judaism in its purist form. Messianic Judaism is all about Judaism in the vision of Yeshua's prophectic faith. Messianic Judaism is the Messiah's religion.

[ChavaK]

On the contrary. If Reform Jews will convert gentiles who believe in Messiah then some Jews will accept Messianic Jews Converting gentiles also to Judaism.
Setting aside the issue of whether a Reform conversion in general is valid, there is the issue of the fact that
when someone converts to a religion, they accept the
religous tenents of that faith, and reject their previous
beliefs that do not align with the faith they are adopting. If some Reform rabbis are converting messianics, these are invalid conversions because of
the above reason. I also wonder, would a messianic
who converted via Reform really feel they had a valid
conversion since Reform rejects all that the messianic
believes in (as far as acceptance of Torah, etc?)
Having worked with a group of rabbis in this area
concerning a messianic congregation that was
causing problems here, I can state without a doubt
that every rabbi-R/O/C/Havurah-rejected these people.

Jews refusing to recognize the coversions of other Jewish communities would be like a Harvard business Graduate stating that Bill Gates is not a Businessman because he did not get a degree from Harvard.
The messianic community is overywhelmingly gentile;
these are not Jewish communities. All groups have
the right to set standards for there group. I see it
all the time on this forum-people who insist others
are not messianic because they do not do xyz, or
because they do xyz.Would a Jew who came to
a messianic community and proclaimed himself
messianic, yet reject the tenents that messianics
believe-including the messiahship of Jesus-be
accepted as a MJ?

Messianic Jews are fully Jewish and therefore their sect has the right to determin the Halacha of their community. Refusing to recognize MJ Convert as Messianic Jew would be like the refusal of some Jews to recognize anything but Orthodox converstions and would appear to me to be slanderous. One cannot base such statments that affect a persons standing in the community upon their own Halacha.

bananna
Any Jew who is halachaly Jewish but becomes Messianic is of course fully Jewish. They messianics may have rights to determine what laws and beliefs they choose, but they do not have the right to claim to be something they are not to the Jewish community, nor interfer with the Jewish community. From a Jewish POV, messianics are converting to a form of Christianity, not Judaism,
and thus these are invalid. While I hold only Orhtodox
conversions are valid, I do respect those who convert
via Reform or Conservative if they accept the tenants
of Judaism and live a Jewish life....the same cannot
be said for messianic conversions.

[ChavaK]

I don't agree with this conversion process per say. It denegrates the Messianic movement.

Marc

Agreed- and what I find interesting is every Jew on
this thread (even if messianic or Christian) feels
the same way- that these conversions do not a Jew make....
and if the Jews here feel this way, how do you think
the general Jewish community will feel?;)

[ChavaK]

Well, guys, as you can I am very passionate about
this topic. It upsets me to no end to read about
these "conversions" and about people who are
not Jews presenting themselves as such to the
Jewish community and the world at large.
Since the Holy days are coming upon us, I do not
like the feelings this thread evokes in me and I
do not like to cause further strife in the forum.
I consider people here to be my friends, and I
do not like to argue to this extreme with friends.
So I am going to bow out from further posts
in this particular thread...:wave:

[ChavaK]

Obviously, someone not quite a gentile!
Someone is or is not a gentile...just like one is either a Jew
or not. No in between.


But I can tell you this. If a convert (rather than a gentile) comes to them to convert, it would be wrong for them to send them away.

If the convert is honest, sincere, and accepting
Judaism (not Messianic Judaism) then I would agree.

[ContraMundum]

I just finished the article.

On reflection, I'd say that the author has a good heart, and sees a genuine pastoral problem.

However, some kind of conversion process is not going to solve the problem- but could really make things worse. Imagine the children of a convert- they might think they're halachically Jewish but then find out they are not accepted as such, by just about everybody- and this could be devastating to them psychologically and ultimately even destructive to their faith in God and their denomination.

In reality, and I have to be candid here, a return to classical Christian Orthodoxy's position on the nature of the Covenant in regards to salvation and sanctification is the only real healing balm for this very sensitive issue. When one is secure in God, personally knowing His favour, one does not need to identify with an ethnic people who have a different history than one's own.

Although I'm proud to be Jewish, I want everyone here who is a Gentile to know that God loves them as His own and cherishes them as they were created. If you are a Gentile, you were still chosen by God from eternity to His loving bosom. You are here for a reason and if that's good enough for God, it's good enough for me.

[christianmomof3]

However, some kind of conversion process is not going to solve the problem- but could really make things worse. Imagine the children of a convert- they might think they're halachically Jewish but then find out they are not accepted as such, by just about everybody- and this could be devastating to them psychologically and ultimately even destructive to their faith in God and their denomination.

In reality, and I have to be candid here, a return to classical Christian Orthodoxy's position on the nature of the Covenant in regards to salvation and sanctification is the only real healing balm for this very sensitive issue. When one is secure in God, personally knowing His favour, one does not need to identify with an ethnic people who have a different history than one's own.

Although I'm proud to be Jewish, I want everyone here who is a Gentile to know that God loves them as His own and cherishes them as they were created. If you are a Gentile, you were still chosen by God from eternity to His loving bosom. You are here for a reason and if that's good enough for God, it's good enough for me.
:amen: I love my Messianic brothers and sisters in Christ. The Lord loves you all too.


Originally Posted by visionary
Yeshua is all about Judaism in its purist form. Messianic Judaism is all about Judaism in the vision of Yeshua's prophectic faith. Messianic Judaism is the Messiah's religion.

The reason that Christ was incarnated as a man and lived a sinless human life and passed through death and resurrection was not only to redeem us for our sins, but to become the Life-Giving Spirit who can dwell within us in a way that He did not do within the Jewish religion.
For those who are Jewish and do not accept Christ as their savior, God is outside of them. For those of us who do accpet Christ as our savior, the Lord dwells within us. That is not Judaism in its purist form.
It is God's original intention that was not able to be fulfilled because of man's fall. God's ultimate goal is not the Jewish religion.
It is Christ in us the hope of glory.
That does not mean that He does not have a place for the Jewish people.
They will always be His chosen people and He loves them has a purpose for them. However it is not, nor was it ever His intention that everyone become Jewish.
His purpose is that we all be filled with Him as our life and become one in Him to express Him.

[visionary]

:amen: I love my Messianic brothers and sisters in Christ. The Lord loves you all too.


The reason that Christ was incarnated as a man and lived a sinless human life and passed through death and resurrection was not only to redeem us for our sins, but to become the Life-Giving Spirit who can dwell within us in a way that He did not do within the Jewish religion.
For those who are Jewish and do not accept Christ as their savior, God is outside of them. For those of us who do accpet Christ as our savior, the Lord dwells within us. That is not Judaism in its purist form.
It is God's original intention that was not able to be fulfilled because of man's fall. God's ultimate goal is not the Jewish religion.
It is Christ in us the hope of glory.
That does not mean that He does not have a place for the Jewish people.
They will always be His chosen people and He loves them has a purpose for them. However it is not, nor was it ever His intention that everyone become Jewish.
His purpose is that we all be filled with Him as our life and become one in Him to express Him.On the highlighted parts, I wish to address. If you mean, "Jewish" as in ethnic culture, then I agree. If you mean "jewish" as in all that the Lord taught on Mount Sinai and recognised today as "jewish" thne I will disagree.


Since note...For those who are Jewish and do not accept Christ as their savior, God is outside of them. That is not allowed in MJ....

[mpossoff]

:amen: I love my Messianic brothers and sisters in Christ. The Lord loves you all too.


The reason that Christ was incarnated as a man and lived a sinless human life and passed through death and resurrection was not only to redeem us for our sins, but to become the Life-Giving Spirit who can dwell within us in a way that He did not do within the Jewish religion.
For those who are Jewish and do not accept Christ as their savior, God is outside of them. For those of us who do accpet Christ as our savior, the Lord dwells within us. That is not Judaism in its purist form.
It is God's original intention that was not able to be fulfilled because of man's fall. God's ultimate goal is not the Jewish religion.
It is Christ in us the hope of glory.
That does not mean that He does not have a place for the Jewish people.
They will always be His chosen people and He loves them has a purpose for them. However it is not, nor was it ever His intention that everyone become Jewish.
His purpose is that we all be filled with Him as our life and become one in Him to express Him.

Wow what a great post. Although we are a Messianic congregation mostly Jewish(about 75%). Yes being Jewish ,a physical decendent of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob means something. No doubt.

But it means even more that the goal is His Spirit and to be able to worship Him in Spirit and in truth.

Marc

[Bananna]

Setting aside the issue of whether a Reform conversion in general is valid, there is the issue of the fact that
when someone converts to a religion, they accept the
religous tenents of that faith, and reject their previous
beliefs that do not align with the faith they are adopting. If some Reform rabbis are converting messianics, these are invalid conversions because of
the above reason. I also wonder, would a messianic
who converted via Reform really feel they had a valid
conversion since Reform rejects all that the messianic
believes in (as far as acceptance of Torah, etc?)
Having worked with a group of rabbis in this area
concerning a messianic congregation that was
causing problems here, I can state without a doubt
that every rabbi-R/O/C/Havurah-rejected these people.

The messianic community is overywhelmingly gentile;
these are not Jewish communities. All groups have
the right to set standards for there group. I see it
all the time on this forum-people who insist others
are not messianic because they do not do xyz, or
because they do xyz.Would a Jew who came to
a messianic community and proclaimed himself
messianic, yet reject the tenents that messianics
believe-including the messiahship of Jesus-be
accepted as a MJ?

Any Jew who is halachaly Jewish but becomes Messianic is of course fully Jewish. They messianics may have rights to determine what laws and beliefs they choose, but they do not have the right to claim to be something they are not to the Jewish community, nor interfer with the Jewish community. From a Jewish POV, messianics are converting to a form of Christianity, not Judaism,
and thus these are invalid. While I hold only Orhtodox
conversions are valid, I do respect those who convert
via Reform or Conservative if they accept the tenants
of Judaism and live a Jewish life....the same cannot
be said for messianic conversions.


A Messianic such as myself would convert to a sect of Judaism. MJ is a sect of Judaism and not Christianity. The issue of who I believe messiah to be is really not the issue. I can convert by going to a Rabbi, taking the classes and by rejecting the teachings of my former religion...( already done). I have no community to join of Jews per se and therefore have not converted.

I agree that some are a different religion from Judaism all together but some does not define the whole. That should be done on an idividual basis in a Beit Din.

Most converted under such a Beit Din would simply inform the new community if they decided to become a part of that community of Jews who require it. I would convert MJ if we had MJs to join. I would convert Orthodox if I had a community of orthodox to join. If I went from MJ to orthodox I would convert to that community. From Orthodox to Reform, I would not need to convert because the Reform don't require it. Orthodox should not require it of outsiders only those joining the community on a permanent basis.

The standard is set by the Jewish community.

I'm sorry you had messianics who did not understand the Community rulings. However I fear that none the less their are rulings and treatment of the non Jews and converted Jews based on slander and here-say rather than Law. It would appear that a formal examination may be in order for all new to a community, but if you do not do this to every new person coming into your community, patiality has become the rule governed by unjust judges.

Torah teaches you shall not have one law for the Jew and one for the stranger.

We are presently dealing with similar issues of new converts having joined the community with no clear understanding of MJ. It means that everyone gets the same label whether practising MJ or not. It means breaking of the community rulings because they have no understanding. Then MJ gets a bad wrap for people carrying mislabel.

We however do not tell people they cannot call themselves Messianic, we simply keep reiterating the standard to be messianic. We will likely end up having formal meetings of full inclusion for all newbies.

Bananna

[mpossoff]

I'd like to know why people are wanting to convert?

If you believe in Yeshua you’re a part of Israel already. The “conversion” happened when you accepted Yeshua as Lord and Savior.

You’re already grafted into Israel, and this is what I believe Paul was talking about when he said if you take conversion, Messiah is of no use to you.

Does this mean you rejected your salvation?

Maybe not.

But are you saying in effect “Your blood was not sufficient to make me a part of Your People.”?

Marc

[GerTzedek]

"Are we ready to stand up and BE a Judaism"

This can only occur if there is mutual recognition. Judaism must recognise and accept what wishes to use its name. Don't hold your breath.
I think it is the other way around. By acknowledging the existence of the ger, this brings MJ one step closer to being accepted as a Judaism, however invalid its conversion process may be considered at this point. Christianity would never in a million years consider converting a person to Judaism. Only Jews seek to convert the ger to Judaism in this manner described by the MJRC.

[GerTzedek]

Marc:

This conversion has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with becoming part of the People of Israel, of changing my identity from gentile to Jew, of coming under Mosaic Covenant.

Why would I? I can't put it into words. I don't think gentiles are second class. They are certainly the People of God, grafted onto Israel (though I will repeat again that they may not call themselves Israel.) To be very honest with you, I don't believe this is an intellectual choice on my part. I feel pulled in. And there is a rubber-band kind of effect: the more I pull away, the stronger the pull back.

I can offer you an analogy. We are all given different gifts. We are given different talents. We are called to different vocations. Let's say HaShem has called one to be a musician, and another to be a pastor. Neither is right or wrong. In fact, maybe the pastor at one time felt called to be a musician, and the HaShem spoke to his heart and said, leave this and go to seminary. If you ask the pastor, "What was wrong with being a musician? Why did you feel the need to leave that and become a pastor?" How is he supposed to answer? There was nothing wrong with being a musician! He simply felt called to the ministry!

In the same way, I simply can't deny this. If I try to, I end up like Jonah. It does no good to run away -- it just follows me. I have to embrace it. And by embracing it, I am finding incredible joy.

I remember a day when I was about 5 years old, when I woke up from a deep sleep in my bedroom, and I was still a little groggy. And the sun was shining in through the curtains causing sunbeams across the room, and I could hear the birds outside. And suddenly I realized, TODAY IS SABBATH! And my heart was filled with such incredible joy!

That is how I feel right now. I am awakening from a deep slumber to light and music and a joyous shabbat.

It's not for most gentiles. But is is for me. I don't know why it is for me. It just is.

[GerTzedek]

Someone is or is not a gentile...just like one is either a Jew
or not. No in between.



If the convert is honest, sincere, and accepting
Judaism (not Messianic Judaism) then I would agree.
Chavak:

That is not what Judaism teaches. Judaism makes a distinction between the gentile and the ger. "The convert who comes to convert." NOT "The gentile who comes to convert." There is something seen to be different about the person who comes to convert from other gentiles. I've read all sorts of things. Do you want me to go into it?

[GerTzedek]

Okay, different people are meaning different things when they say "Jews" and "Judaism" everything from ethnic culture to religion. I just want to make it clear what it means to me.

There is the people and their covenant; there is Israel and Torah.

Period.

[GerTzedek]

Banana:

We do not convert to a "sect" of Judaism. When the Reform do conversions, they don't convert to "Reform Judaism," but to Judaism. When the Conservatives do conversions, they don't convert to "Conservative Judaism" but to Judaism. And when Messianics do conversions, it is not to "Messianic Judaism" but to Judaism. It is less a set of beliefs, as much as saying to a person, you are now one of the People, part of Israel, bound by Covenant.

IN fact, if MJ did NOT do conversions, or if MJ did conversions to "Messianic Judiasm," something would be terribly horribly wrong. MJ claims to be a Judaism like the Reform, the Conservative, the Orthodox. This makes it MORE like them; this makes MJ MORE a Judaism, rather than a Christianity.

I'm with you, Banana. I would have finished my conversion among the Orthodox YEARS AGO if that had been an option.

[stone]

I don't get it; why convert?

[mpossoff]

I don't get it; why convert?

Honestly I don't get it either.

Personally it's like “Your blood was not sufficient to make me a part of Your People.”

Marc

[GerTzedek]

Honestly I don't get it either.

Personally it's like “Your blood was not sufficient to make me a part of Your People.”

Marc
Did you read what I wrote?

Tell me in your own words what you think I said.

[mpossoff]

Did you read what I wrote?

Tell me in your own words what you think I said.

Ger I intellectually know what you said.

But since I'm not in that position I can't comment. I can only comment on my view.

Marc

[GerTzedek]

Ger I intellectually know what you said.

But since I'm not in that position I can't comment. I can only comment on my view.

Marc
Marc:

I just want to make sure you understand the following:

1. I am already of the People of God. This has nothing to do with that.

2. Being of the People of God does not make one a Jew, of Israel.

3. That this conversion is a change of THAT status, from gentile to Jew. It does not involve anything to do with salvation.

It's okay if you don't understand WHY I would want to become a Jew when it makes no difference in terms of salvation. Like I said, it's not an intellectual thing; I really don't understand it myself.

[PostTribber]

...with the possibility of a second temple built in Jerusalem, I was wondering how Messianic Jews would be received? or is this a necessary prerequisite in order to participate in the Temple Worship? :wave:

[GerTzedek]

...with the possibility of a second temple built in Jerusalem, I was wondering how Messianic Jews would be received? or is this a necessary prerequisite in order to participate in the Temple Worship? :wave:
Why have you posted this within this thread? It's a good question, but you needed to start your own thread.

Can this post be moved?

I think you mean the THIRD temple. The first was built by Solomon. The second was built during the days of Ezra when the Jews returned from Babylon -- this second temple was the temple that Yeshua worshipped in. I fully anticipate a third temple. But not for the same reasons that Christians expect it. The world is not complete without the Temple.

I dreamed about the Third Temple a few weeks back, just before Tisha b'av.

So Rabbi, if the Third Temple were built tomorrow, how would Messianic Jews be recieved?

[christianmomof3]

Marc:

I just want to make sure you understand the following:

1. I am already of the People of God. This has nothing to do with that.

2. Being of the People of God does not make one a Jew, of Israel.

3. That this conversion is a change of THAT status, from gentile to Jew. It does not involve anything to do with salvation.

It's okay if you don't understand WHY I would want to become a Jew when it makes no difference in terms of salvation. Like I said, it's not an intellectual thing; I really don't understand it myself.
So are you simply converting to Judaism? :scratch:
Do you not believe that Jesus is the Messiah?

[PostTribber]

Why have you posted this within this thread? It's a good question, but you needed to start your own thread.

Can this post be moved?

I think you mean the THIRD temple. The first was built by Solomon. The second was built during the days of Ezra when the Jews returned from Babylon -- this second temple was the temple that Yeshua worshipped in. I fully anticipate a third temple. But not for the same reasons that Christians expect it. The world is not complete without the Temple.

I dreamed about the Third Temple a few weeks back, just before Tisha b'av.

So Rabbi, if the Third Temple were built tomorrow, how would Messianic Jews be recieved?
...3rd Temple, thanks! just wondered that this may also be used as a 'catalyst' towards 'conversion'. :wave:

[visionary]

When they see the son of perdition in the temple.

[Liorah]

This is one of those topics that will have everyone chasing their tails endlessly.

The final result is when you stand before G-d.

You'll get the answer than.

[GerTzedek]

So are you simply converting to Judaism? :scratch:
Do you not believe that Jesus is the Messiah?
Sigh*
I guess it's going to take a few times around the block to get this understood.

This conversion has NOTHING TO DO with salvation, nothing to do with my belief in Yeshua. I believe in Yeshua now, before, and I will continue to. I am of the People of God now, before, and I will continue to be part of the people of God. This does not change that status.

This conversion is a change in status only of gentile to Jew. It is a change of People and a taking up of their Covenant.

The difficulty here has to do with the use of the word "conversion." Many people here use it in only one sense. But conversion can be used for many things. For example....

Now, before I give this example, let me preface this by saying this is not a plug for the Catholic church but just a way of making an analogy...

Sometimes Christians who are evangelicals and already baptised come to the Catholic church and want to become Catholics. They go through a conversion process and are called converts. But they have not changed religions. They are not re-baptized. They were Chrsitians before and they are still Chrsitians afterwards. Same G-d. Same Jesus. Same Creed. Etc. Yet something is changing. As they are recieved into a new community, the CULTURE of that community impacts them. The entire way of thinking, is different, and the thinking of that person is, over time, transformed.

In the same way, I was a believer before, and will remain a believer. But I am changing communities. And the culture is different. The thinking is different. My thinking is changing. I see it happening. And I am aware of it happening less and less, which means it's happening on a deeper level.

I think those who have moved to a different country can understand.

Maybe there will be those here who will never understand.

But Christianmomof3, you are both a Jew and a believer, and of all people, I would think that you would understand that it is possible to be both.

[Henaynei]

I'm so glad to see you folks are having fun with this ;)

B"H

b'Shalom
Henaynei

p.s. GerTzaddik - *I* know *exactly* from where you are coming :thumbsup:

[GerTzedek]

So sister Henaynei

What are you going to do, or what have you done, with the possibility?

[muffler dragon]

While I admit that I'm not too keen on the premise of the article quoted by Henny, it's the following hogwash that always chaps my cheeks.

I know that the Lord has given Israel a spirit of stupor to this very day, and hardened their hearts from fearing him.

The circularity of this statement is so ridiculous that I'm spinning, and getting ready to vomit.

[GerTzedek]

Well, muffler, I will be the first to say that her post was in general what my friend RebbeCohen would call "goyishe kopf." :D However, that said, she IS in the line you quoted basically referring to what Paul said.

Paul advances the idea that the reason so few Jews came to belief is that because if this had NOT been the case, the gospel would never have gone outside of Judaism to the gentiles as it did, and as G-d intended.

Even Jewish Rabbis have looked at Chrsitianity, and how it has spread the Jewish Torah round the world, and remarked that this cannot be coincidence, that at least to some degree, G-d has his hand in it.

It can't but make you wonder.

[muffler dragon]

Well, muffler, I will be the first to say that her post was in general what my friend RebbeCohen would call "goyishe kopf." :D However, that said, she IS in the line you quoted basically referring to what Paul said.

And you know how "high" I hold Paul in regard.

In case you're not aware of the circularity of the statement, then I'll be sure to share briefly:

If the Jews are "blind" as this tripe (and what Paul spews) so states; then there is nothing that can be gained from what ANY Jew has stated including Jesus, the Apostles, and so on.

Paul advances the idea that the reason so few Jews came to belief is that because if this had NOT been the case, the gospel would never have gone outside of Judaism to the gentiles as it did, and as G-d intended.

Which is also hogwash. The Gentiles don't have to be a part of Israel in order to have a relationship with G-d.

Even Jewish Rabbis have looked at Chrsitianity, and how it has spread the Jewish Torah round the world, and remarked that this cannot be coincidence, that at least to some degree, G-d has his hand in it.

It can't but make you wonder.

Besides being an Appeal to Popularity, I'm not really convinced by this type of argument.

1) Christianity has not spread the Jewish Torah 'round the world. Christianity is as ignorant of the Torah as the Aborigines of Australia.
2) G-d can use many vessels in order to get His desires performed. This is one of the primary functions of HaSatan.

I could write more, but I'll stop.

[mpossoff]

This is a dorect quote from someone high in the UMJC that I received as an email.

The fact that there was no Christianity as yet does not mean that the later development of Christianity
was an accident or needs to be reversed. I believe it was part of the
fulfillment of the promise that the knowledge of the God of Israel would
spread throughout the earth, among all nations, that is among the gentiles.

Just as mainstream Judaism has its huge deficit regarding
Yeshua, yet many of us see it as part of God's design throughout history, so
the church has had a huge deficit regarding Israel, yet it too is part of
God's design throughout history. In other words, both church and synagogue
are divine instruments, yet deeply flawed, and cannot fulfill their destiny
without the other. The alternative is to reject both and define ourselves as
some narrow sectarian movement that believes it is the only group that
really has a handle on God.

Also, the basic apostolic message to the nations was "turn from these
useless things [idols] to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth,
the sea, and all things that are in them..." (Acts 14:15). See also 1 Cor.
12:2; Gal. 4:8-9; 1 Thess. 1:9. Christianity has spread the knowledge of the
one true God in contrast to the idols that the Gentile world formerly
worshiped, even if its portrayal of the one true God has been deeply flawed
through anti-Judaism. This is more true today than ever. Even though the
church has been afflicted with the materialism and consumerism of the
postmodern world, it now has a large pro-Israel, pro-Jewish component.

Marc

[GerTzedek]

1) Christianity has not spread the Jewish Torah 'round the world. Christianity is as ignorant of the Torah as the Aborigines of Australia.
Really? Christians haven't taken the scriptures around the globe and translated them into virtually every language on the planet?
I guess organizations like Wycliffe Bible Translators International are a figment of my imagination.

Honestly, I think that's the first time I've seen you so given to hyperbole that it hurt your case.

[muffler dragon]

Really? Christians haven't taken the scriptures around the globe and translated them into virtually every language on the planet?
I guess organizations like Wycliffe Bible Translators International are a figment of my imagination.

Taking the words is one thing. Destroying the very meaning behind said words is another.

Furthermore, I fail to see how the Christians taking the Christian Bible around the wolrd as a blessing to Jews and Judaism. If I had my druthers, then I'd call it a curse instead of a blessing.

Honestly, I think that's the first time I've seen you so given to hyperbole that it hurt your case.

And misunderstanding the very point I was making renders this consideration irrelevant.

[GerTzedek]

Come come. Chrstians ARE AS IGNORANT AS Aborignies when it comes to Torah? It's just a ridiculous statement. I know you believe Chirsitians don't understand Torah. I would agree, just not to the degree that you believe it. But the above statement is hyperbolic. Overly hyperbolic. You lose the point you are trying to make by trying too hard.

[GerTzedek]

Thank you Marc. You know who else this sounds like? DENNIS PRAGER.

[ContraMundum]

They just don't have the authority to do conversions, that's the sad part.

[ContraMundum]

This is a dorect quote from someone high in the UMJC that I received as an email.

The fact that there was no Christianity as yet does not mean that the later development of Christianity
was an accident or needs to be reversed. I believe it was part of the
fulfillment of the promise that the knowledge of the God of Israel would
spread throughout the earth, among all nations, that is among the gentiles.


Exactly.

[mpossoff]

Exactly.

Contra I listened to a lecture called WHY CAN'T MESSIANICS AND CHRISTIANS GET ALONG?

After listening it really opened my eyes. If want want the audio drop me a PM.

I admit I have been guilty of knocking Christianity. But even the leadership at UMJC doesn't knock Christianity.

IMHO they have a more moderate view towards Christianity that we could all learn from. Not too far to the left or right.

I have compared both the debates from Resnick and Hegg. They both raise valid points. Almost a tie IMHO. But I believe Resnick wins the debate because first he uses scriptural evidence more than Hegg. Second Resnick is correct by sort of comparing Messianic Judaism to Jewish Roots movements. He doesn't necessarily compare and contrast but by reading his articles it is there.

The big question is advocate a Jewish roots movement believe that Ya’akov is saying that Gentiles should be accepted “as is” because they will still hear the teachings of Torah every week and gradually become more observant. In this view, circumcision and Torah obedience cannot be required for salvation, but they (or at least Torah obedience) are still the ideal, and can be instilled in Gentile believers through a gradual process of connection with the synagogue.

One Law advocates applies all of Torah automatically to all believers is the Jewish roots view.

Actually I am going to ask our Rabbi about this. Our congregation is part of the MJAA. Honestly I don't know exactly what the views are. If any one has been part of the Messianic movement long enough our congregation and Rabbi are pretty well known. A pioneer in the Messianic movement. So I am going to ask him. Our congregation is about 75% Jewish. I can tell you 'Is Torah Only for the Jews' is not preached. BUT I will take an educated guess that it is understood?

Marc

[mpossoff]

Contra here's a good question:

Does Adonai have a different standard or definition of sin and righteousness for the gentile than He does for the Jew?

This is where it get hairy because as Paul said "If it wasn't for the Law I wouldn't know what sin is"(unquote).

Marc

[ChazakEmunah]

Come come. Chrstians ARE AS IGNORANT AS Aborignies when it comes to Torah? It's just a ridiculous statement. I know you believe Chirsitians don't understand Torah. I would agree, just not to the degree that you believe it. But the above statement is hyperbolic. Overly hyperbolic. You lose the point you are trying to make by trying too hard.
Ger,

Can you honestly tell me that C*hristians are not ignorant of Torah? Did anyone here grow up as a C*hristian studying and learning the Torah? Or for that matter, once a person becomes a C*hristian are they encouraged to study the Torah? In fact, the common case is that when a person is raised C*hristian or becomes a C*hristian they are told that the "Old Covenant" no longer applies. Je*us came and did away with all of that. As a matter of personal experience, I can tell you that C*hristians can be quite ignorant of Torah, even being utterly opposed to it in favor of the "New Testament." How many times have you heard it called "bondage?"

Now with the coming of the Messianic movement, C*hristians are starting to study and learn Torah, and as a result, many of them leave C*hristianity altogether and convert (or return) to Judaism. {This is probably why you won't find many Messianics knowledgeable of both Torah Shebikhtav and Torah Sheba'al Peh.} This is certainly a new phenomenon and those who are sincerely leaving C*hristianity are welcomed.


So then is it a blessing that C*hristianity has spread around the globe? I don't think so. If C*hristianity had never been born, the world would be a much different place today. I believe that had C*hristianity never been born, Judaism would have continued to spread and eventually reached all 4 corners of the Earth. And moreso, I believe that the Jewish community today would be alive and vibrant throughout the world. We never would've had the pogroms, the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the Shoah. And perhaps even Islam would never have arisen.

However, C*hristianity does exist and we have had to deal with that fact since 135CE. Baruch HaShem, in the last 20 or 30 yrs, we have seen a resurgence in Judaism with more and more Jews returning to the faith of their forefathers. Eventually, we may start missionary activity again (as we did 2000 yrs ago), but the priority right now is on encouraging Jews to do t'shuva. And may our t'shuva merit the coming of the Mashiakh!

[GerTzedek]

Contra here's a good question:

Does Adonai have a different standard or definition of sin and righteousness for the gentile than He does for the Jew?

This is where it get hairy because as Paul said "If it wasn't for the Law I wouldn't know what sin is"(unquote).

Marc

Marc:

I know you addressed this to Contra, but I'd like to answer as well. Yes. Gentiles have a different standard than Jews. The standard for all humanity is the Covenant with Noah. Then, within that, the Jews are called to a stricter standard.

How can what Paul says still be true? Sir, just the command to refrain from sexual immorality all by itself is overwhelming for the majority of people on this planet. Add to that the commandments against idolatry, murder, theft, and eating of live meat/blood as well as the command to establish courts of justice ... whoa, that last one is a doozy. Especially if the courts actually have to be just. Man, if they have to be JUST, then even WE are in trouble.

But idolatry is the big one. Because idolatry isn't just making little statues to bow down to; it's putting anything or anyone on the throne of our hearts where only G-d may be: money, sex, power, self ...

So don't think the Noahide commandments don't expose the sinful hearts we have.

[muffler dragon]

Come come. Chrstians ARE AS IGNORANT AS Aborignies when it comes to Torah? It's just a ridiculous statement. I know you believe Chirsitians don't understand Torah. I would agree, just not to the degree that you believe it. But the above statement is hyperbolic. Overly hyperbolic. You lose the point you are trying to make by trying too hard.

And I completely disagree otherwise I wouldn't have made the statement.

Nominal Christianity considers the Torah a curse and something that has been completely fulfilled. How is this degree of ignorance any less than that of someone who doesn't even know what the Torah is? To me, it's not. Annihilation is more detrimental, to me, than being completely oblivious.

[GerTzedek]

Can you honestly tell me that C*hristians are not ignorant of Torah?
Chazak, my love, did you read what I wrote???? Please read it again.

Originally Posted by GerTzedek
Come come. Chrstians ARE AS IGNORANT AS Aborignies when it comes to Torah? It's just a ridiculous statement. I know you believe Chirsitians don't understand Torah. I would agree, just not to the degree that you believe it. But the above statement is hyperbolic. Overly hyperbolic. You lose the point you are trying to make by trying too hard.

And you are now making the same mistake.

Does Christianity have its flaws? YES. Does it have its horrendous sins? YES But when weighed in the balance, the world is a much better place for Chrisitianity having been here than not. You think the world would have been BETTER if it had been predoominantly PAGAN???? or SECULAR??? The sound of your axe grinding is deafening. I suggest you call up Dennis Prager and discuss this with him, Jew to Jew.

[muffler dragon]

Ger,

Can you honestly tell me that C*hristians are not ignorant of Torah? Did anyone here grow up as a C*hristian studying and learning the Torah? Or for that matter, once a person becomes a C*hristian are they encouraged to study the Torah? In fact, the common case is that when a person is raised C*hristian or becomes a C*hristian they are told that the "Old Covenant" no longer applies. Je*us came and did away with all of that. As a matter of personal experience, I can tell you that C*hristians can be quite ignorant of Torah, even being utterly opposed to it in favor of the "New Testament." How many times have you heard it called "bondage?"

Thank you for stating my point in a different manner.

[GerTzedek]

And I completely disagree otherwise I wouldn't have made the statement.

Nominal Christianity considers the Torah a curse and something that has been completely fulfilled. How is this degree of ignorance any less than that of someone who doesn't even know what the Torah is? To me, it's not. Annihilation is more detrimental, to me, than being completely oblivious.
Actually, nominal Christianity doesn't even have that level of teaching. Nominal Christianity probably knows the 10 commandments are important, and then can't name them all.

[mpossoff]

Marc:

I know you addressed this to Contra, but I'd like to answer as well. Yes. Gentiles have a different standard than Jews. The standard for all humanity is the Covenant with Noah. Then, within that, the Jews are called to a stricter standard.

How can what Paul says still be true? Sir, just the command to refrain from sexual immorality all by itself is overwhelming for the majority of people on this planet. Add to that the commandments against idolatry, murder, theft, and eating of live meat/blood as well as the command to establish courts of justice ... whoa, that last one is a doozy. Especially if the courts actually have to be just. Man, if they have to be JUST, then even WE are in trouble.

But idolatry is the big one. Because idolatry isn't just making little statues to bow down to; it's putting anything or anyone on the throne of our hearts where only G-d may be: money, sex, power, self ...

So don't think the Noahide commandments don't expose the sinful hearts we have.

We are told to go and make talmidim of all nations, and it is enough for a talmid to do what his Master does, yes? Then we cannot make men talmidim of Yeshua unless they are to follow the Torah?

Marc

[muffler dragon]

But when weighed in the balance, the world is a much better place for Chrisitianity having been here than not.

This is an unsubstantiatable premise. And you call my statement hyperbolic? :doh:

[ContraMundum]

I think it is downright arrogant to state that Christians don't study the Torah from childhood. They do- along with the NT and in most cases ancient Christian traditions too.

It's pretty disrespectful towards devout Christians to assume that they are some kind of ill-taught, misled and invincibly ignorant human beings incapable of learning Torah.

The kids in our (traditionalist Anglican) congregations know the scriptures better than most kids in other religions and denominations. They study hard. They know the OT (aka Tanach) very well. They are tested and are expected to know an awful lot about the Bible before they have their first communion. It's no walk in the park.

What might surprise you critics is how close to the same conclusions Orthodox Christianity shares with Orthodox Judaism about the content and inrepretation of the Torah and Tanach. There's not a lot of difference 99% of the time. The 1% difference does mark the difference though. However, the ancient Church can hold its own just as good as the anti-missionaries. Having seen both sides of the fence I can say that with all honesty.

Interestingly enough, proper, devout and matured Jewish authorities would say far more charitable and well-informed things about the scriptural skills and teachings of the established, centuries old Christian Church. What I'm saying is that you don't hear the most educated Rabbis saying such absurd things about the Christian faith as you would from the experts here on this forum.

You critics make the massive mistake of thinking all Christians are like the worst examples of them. Just because some rotten ill-trained and unqualified renegades couldn't teach you the scriptures well enough to give you grounding doesn't mean the rest of the Church isn't equipped with experienced, educated and matured scholars who can give a better apology for the faith than what you get here.

I'm pretty dissapointed with the posts here. As a student of all true theology, Jewish or Gentile, I just can't stomach it when people vilify others, because all I see is their own ignorance.

[muffler dragon]

I think it is downright arrogant to state that Christians don't study the Torah from childhood. They do- along with the NT and in most cases ancient Christian traditions too.

It's pretty disrespectful towards devout Christians to assume that they are some kind of ill-taught, misled and invincibly ignorant human beings incapable of learning Torah.

The kids in our (traditionalist Anglican) congregations know the scriptures better than most kids in other religions and denominations. They study hard. They know the OT (aka Tanach) very well. They are tested and are expected to know an awful lot about the Bible before they have their first communion. It's no walk in the park.

What might surprise you critics is how close to the same conclusions Orthodox Christianity shares with Orthodox Judaism about the content and inrepretation of the Torah and Tanach. There's not a lot of difference 99% of the time. The 1% difference does mark the difference though. However, the ancient Church can hold its own just as good as the anti-missionaries. Having seen both sides of the fence I can say that with all honesty.

Interestingly enough, proper, devout and matured Jewish authorities would say far more charitable and well-informed things about the scriptural skills and teachings of the established, centuries old Christian Church. What I'm saying is that you don't hear the most educated Rabbis saying such absurd things about the Christian faith as you would from the experts here on this forum.

You critics make the massive mistake of thinking all Christians are like the worst examples of them. Just because some rotten ill-trained and unqualified renegades couldn't teach you the scriptures well enough to give you grounding doesn't mean the rest of the Church isn't equipped with experienced, educated and matured scholars who can give a better apology for the faith than what you get here.

I'm pretty dissapointed with the posts here. As a student of all true theology, Jewish or Gentile, I just can't stomach it when people vilify others, because all I see is their own ignorance.

FWIW, my personal history in Christianity and the demographic I have been in is not in-line with what you have stated above.

Consider the issue dropped.

[stone]

I can't convert because Y-shua is rejected as the word of g-d by Judaism.

[GerTzedek]

I can't convert because Y-shua is rejected as the word of g-d by Judaism.
So did you not understand what I wrote, or did you understand it, and just disagree with it?

[Talmidah]

I think it is downright arrogant to state that Christians don't study the Torah from childhood. They do- along with the NT and in most cases ancient Christian traditions too.

It's pretty disrespectful towards devout Christians to assume that they are some kind of ill-taught, misled and invincibly ignorant human beings incapable of learning Torah.

The kids in our (traditionalist Anglican) congregations know the scriptures better than most kids in other religions and denominations. They study hard. They know the OT (aka Tanach) very well. They are tested and are expected to know an awful lot about the Bible before they have their first communion. It's no walk in the park.

What might surprise you critics is how close to the same conclusions Orthodox Christianity shares with Orthodox Judaism about the content and inrepretation of the Torah and Tanach. There's not a lot of difference 99% of the time. The 1% difference does mark the difference though. However, the ancient Church can hold its own just as good as the anti-missionaries. Having seen both sides of the fence I can say that with all honesty.

Interestingly enough, proper, devout and matured Jewish authorities would say far more charitable and well-informed things about the scriptural skills and teachings of the established, centuries old Christian Church. What I'm saying is that you don't hear the most educated Rabbis saying such absurd things about the Christian faith as you would from the experts here on this forum.

You critics make the massive mistake of thinking all Christians are like the worst examples of them. Just because some rotten ill-trained and unqualified renegades couldn't teach you the scriptures well enough to give you grounding doesn't mean the rest of the Church isn't equipped with experienced, educated and matured scholars who can give a better apology for the faith than what you get here.

I'm pretty dissapointed with the posts here. As a student of all true theology, Jewish or Gentile, I just can't stomach it when people vilify others, because all I see is their own ignorance.I've stayed out of this thread because others have spoken my thoughts much better than I could have. I just wanted to address this though. I have no doubt that you are right. But I also know that I, and perhaps some of the others posting, have a background in Christianity different than that of Orthodox, Anglican, Catholicism, etc. Very much 'evangelical', I can't think of the proper term right now, type of Christianity. And the "OT" was glossed over. Lots of stories about Adam & Eve, Joseph and his brothers, David & Goliath, etc. But not much else. Maybe a verse or passage here and there to "point to" Jesus. And enough to make people glad that the law was nailed to the cross, that Jesus fulfilled the law on our behalfs, and that the old things have passed away.

I guess I'm just trying to say that while I do see where you're coming from, I also don't think that people are speaking out of arrogance. I think they are speaking out of their experience, which may or may not reflect what is going on in Christianity as a whole

[GerTzedek]

This is an unsubstantiatable premise. And you call my statement hyperbolic? :doh:
It is amazing to me that you consider pagan cultures that sacrifice children, tear out still-beating hearts, have pantheons of gods, burn their wives, practice infanticide, make slavery the acceptable norm, kill people for sport in arenas, etc. are preferable.

In the 20th Century, more people died in the secular gulags than death camps, but you consider secular culture preferable.

Amazing.

Thankfully, your opinions are not representative of the many learned Jewish authorities I've heard speak on this.

[GerTzedek]

I've stayed out of this thread because others have spoken my thoughts much better than I could have. I just wanted to address this though. I have no doubt that you are right. But I also know that I, and perhaps some of the others posting, have a background in Christianity different than that of Orthodox, Anglican, Catholicism, etc. Very much 'evangelical', I can't think of the proper term right now, type of Christianity. And the "OT" was glossed over. Lots of stories about Adam & Eve, Joseph and his brothers, David & Goliath, etc. But not much else. Maybe a verse or passage here and there to "point to" Jesus. And enough to make people glad that the law was nailed to the cross, that Jesus fulfilled the law on our behalfs, and that the old things have passed away.

I guess I'm just trying to say that while I do see where you're coming from, I also don't think that people are speaking out of arrogance. I think they are speaking out of their experience, which may or may not reflect what is going on in Christianity as a whole
Oh, the point is well taken. Its the degree they are taking it too that's the problem. They lose their credibility when they get silly. I'd like to see them make the point well, because it IS a good point, and they can't do that when they are like this.

[stone]

So did you not understand what I wrote, or did you understand it, and just disagree with it?

I'm responding to the op, no idea what your talking about, sorry.

[muffler dragon]

It is amazing to me that you consider pagan cultures that sacrifice children, tear out still-beating hearts, have pantheons of gods, burn their wives, practice infanticide, make slavery the acceptable norm, kill people for sport in arenas, etc. are preferable.

I never inferrred nor stated anything of the sort above.

You believe the earth is a better place, because of Christianity. I said that is an unsubstantiatable belief. Nothing more.

Now, if you want to talk about atrocities carried out by people groups; then look no further than nominal Christianity throughout the ages. And, no, this group is not the only one; however, it is no better than any other.

In the 20th Century, more people died in the secular gulags than death camps, but you consider secular culture preferable.

It would be wise to substantiate these points with figures IF you are going to continue to infer points that I have never made.

Thankfully, your opinions are not representative of the many learned Jewish authorities I've heard speak on this.

I've stated this once, and I will do it again. After which, I suggest you not MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE AGAIN.

Just because YOU MISINTERPRET something I write does not give you carte blanche on accusing me of something outrightly ridiculous. This is the second time in one thread you have done this. Try your darnedest not to do it again.

Christianity has brought as much positive and negative to the world as Islam, Buddhism, atheism, and any other "belief system" in my opinion. People do acts of right and wrong regardless of what they believe. No one can fathom what this world would be like IF Christianity did not exist; however, it's fallacious to believe that the world could not be any better.

If we want to discuss Christianity v. Torah Judaism; then count me in. I would be more than willing to listen to your arguments that promotes the idea that Christianity is completely compatible with the Torah and thus, not ignorant of it.

Lastly, take note that I have not made one statement about your beliefs through inference. I expect the same from you.

[muffler dragon]

Oh, the point is well taken. Its the degree they are taking it too that's the problem. They lose their credibility when they get silly. I'd like to see them make the point well, because it IS a good point, and they can't do that when they are like this.

So be it.

I shall consider credibility lost to you as an equivalence to the "blindness" that you and Paul have ascribed to the Jews. I have no problem accepting the circularity of such a consideration in this instance.

[GerTzedek]

So be it.

I shall consider credibility lost to you as an equivalence to the "blindness" that you and Paul have ascribed to the Jews. I have no problem accepting the circularity of such a consideration in this instance.
Actually, I don't really mind you stating that this is circular. What I think is silly are your statements that Christians don't understand Torah any better than Aborigines, or Chazak's that the World would have been better off if Christianity had never happened. THOSE are the kind of ridiculous remarks that lose credibility.

Come on, muffler. Those kind of comments cross the line into harassment, and I didn't even bother to report you because no one takes it seriously.

[muffler dragon]

Actually, I don't really mind you stating that this is circular. What I think is silly are your statements that Christians don't understand Torah any better than Aborigines, or Chazak's that the World would have been better off if Christianity had never happened. THOSE are the kind of ridiculous remarks that lose credibility.

Yet, I can back them up.

Christianity v. Torah:

1) Christianity believes that G-d has incarnated.
2) Christianity believes that one needs personal vicarious atonement in order to have a relationship with G-d.
3) Christianity believes that the "New" Covenant of Jeremiah 31 is NOT the same as the Mosaic Covenant.
4) Christianity believes that Jews are sinners who are not only blind, but can't be forgiven since the Temple no longer stands.
5) Christianity believes that Melchizedek is a priest without any heritage; yet, somehow is a theophany of Jesus in the Tanakh.
6) Every ounce of eisegesis that Christianity promotes of reading Jesus into the Torah and Tanakh is nothing but IGNORANCE.

Do I need to continue? How this isn't IGNORANCE OF TORAH is beyond me.

Come on, muffler. Those kind of comments cross the line into harassment, and I didn't even bother to report you because no one takes it seriously.

I couldn't care less if you report me or not. Don't do me any "favors".

It's funny that you consider them "silly" when both CE and Talmidah have understood EXACTLY what I have written. To further the fact that I am in alignment with Chava should underscore that the Jewish contingent (that has no Christian affiliation whatsoever) is sharing essentially the same idea. Yet, somehow this is silly to you. It must be the "blindness" idea revisited, huh?

[ChazakEmunah]

Chazak, my love, did you read what I wrote???? Please read it again.
Okay, fair enough. You agree, but not to the same extent. You did read the part of my post about the Messianic movement right? With everything there are certain exceptions. And yes, Messianics are an exception in this case, because many are coming to understand the need and importance of Torah. And as they learn more of it, they grow to love it and many eventually leave C*hristianity altogether.

And you are now making the same mistake.
I think we agree, but to a certain extent. Perhaps you are including Messianics as C*hristians who are not ignorant of Torah? Maybe some clarification would help? ;)

Does Christianity have its flaws? YES. Does it have its horrendous sins? YES But when weighed in the balance, the world is a much better place for Chrisitianity having been here than not.
I think you may have missed the last part of my post. I think that if C*hristianity had never been born that Judaism would have been the dominant faith. Jewish missionary activity was so effective that before the fall of the Roman Empire, a full 10% of it's citizenry were Jews (many of which were converts). Even moreso, many more citizens were Ger Tzedekim (including many soldiers and members of the Roman Senate).

You think the world would have been BETTER if it had been predoominantly PAGAN???? or SECULAR???
No, because I think that the world would have been predominately Jewish. ;)

The sound of your axe grinding is deafening. I suggest you call up Dennis Prager and discuss this with him, Jew to Jew.
No axe, I'm just fond of "alternate history." :)

[ChazakEmunah]

Thank you for stating my point in a different manner.
No problem. :thumbsup:

[ChazakEmunah]

I think it is downright arrogant to state that Christians don't study the Torah from childhood. They do- along with the NT and in most cases ancient Christian traditions too.

It's pretty disrespectful towards devout Christians to assume that they are some kind of ill-taught, misled and invincibly ignorant human beings incapable of learning Torah.

The kids in our (traditionalist Anglican) congregations know the scriptures better than most kids in other religions and denominations. They study hard. They know the OT (aka Tanach) very well. They are tested and are expected to know an awful lot about the Bible before they have their first communion. It's no walk in the park.

What might surprise you critics is how close to the same conclusions Orthodox Christianity shares with Orthodox Judaism about the content and inrepretation of the Torah and Tanach. There's not a lot of difference 99% of the time. The 1% difference does mark the difference though. However, the ancient Church can hold its own just as good as the anti-missionaries. Having seen both sides of the fence I can say that with all honesty.

Interestingly enough, proper, devout and matured Jewish authorities would say far more charitable and well-informed things about the scriptural skills and teachings of the established, centuries old Christian Church. What I'm saying is that you don't hear the most educated Rabbis saying such absurd things about the Christian faith as you would from the experts here on this forum.

You critics make the massive mistake of thinking all Christians are like the worst examples of them. Just because some rotten ill-trained and unqualified renegades couldn't teach you the scriptures well enough to give you grounding doesn't mean the rest of the Church isn't equipped with experienced, educated and matured scholars who can give a better apology for the faith than what you get here.

I'm pretty dissapointed with the posts here. As a student of all true theology, Jewish or Gentile, I just can't stomach it when people vilify others, because all I see is their own ignorance.
Okay Contra, we live in different worlds. C*hristianity in the U.S. is quite different from C*hristianity in the UK. We're looking at our experiences through different lenses. I grew up as a C*hristian, spent a lot of time in Church, went to Bible studies, was active in youth group, went to a C*hristian school, and in fact all my friends growing up were C*hristians. So when I talk about a C*hristian experience, I can give an accurate depiction of C*hristian life in the U.S. Was it Evangelical? I don't know. None of the churches I was involved with were your standard Evangelical churches. But really, does it matter? You are giving your perspective on C*hristianity within the Anglican Church, and I am giving my perspective on C*hristianity as one who grew up in an American C*hristian atmosphere. Heck, I didn't officially leave C*hristianity/the Messianic Movement until Feb this year! So I can even tell you about it as an adult. So please don't be so quick to dismiss those who had spent most of their lives as C*hristians.

[Henaynei]

So sister Henaynei

What are you going to do, or what have you done, with the possibility? I'm praying about it - it has been my heart unceasingly for nearly 20 years ... but I had little hope G-d would open a way for something like this so soon, certainly not in my lifetime, I'm still not certain that He has, I need to do more research ... what has been available until now has been laughable at best ....

what about you?

[nasa1]

This is sad. G-d has specially forbidden Gentiles to recieve circumcision!


Do you people want to be under the Law? Did you not read the many warnings G-d gave in His book called Galatians? Do you not know that if you get circumcised, Christ is of NO MORE VALUE TO YOU AND YOU ARE LOST?
That if you convert to Judaism, you are LOST and back under the Torah, a situation that will lead to you being condemned to HELL?

Wake up, you who want to be under the Law, who want to be Jewish! Wake up and accept who you are SPIRITUALLY in CHRIST or you are going to be LOST FOREVER!


nasa

[nasa1]

PLEASE READ THIS ARTICLE BY MESSIANIC ELLEN KAVANAUGH ABOUT GENTILES AND CONVERSION

http://www.lightofmashiach.org/smicha.html

[nasa1]

The person who started this thread should be ashamed of themselves and question their committment to Yeshua and the New Covenent.


Quote from Ellen Kavanaugh: "Torah never commands any ritualized conversion of Gentiles!"

http://www.lightofmashiach.org/smicha.html





I cannot believe the hypocrisy found in Messianic Judaism sometimes. Why do you want to go back to the traditions of men - of pharisaical Judaism? What is wrong with your hearts? For be sure of this: this is a heart problem, 100 % a heart problem and also an identity problem.


Be ashamed, all of you that want to convert! Isn't Yeshua enough for your souls? Isn't the cross enough? Did He suffer for nothing - to make you free, and you want to be in bondage again?

NASA

[muffler dragon]

This is sad. G-d has specially forbidden Gentiles to recieve circumcision!


Do you people want to be under the Law? Did you not read the many warnings G-d gave in His book called Galatians? Do you not know that if you get circumcised, Christ is of NO MORE VALUE TO YOU AND YOU ARE LOST?
That if you convert to Judaism, you are LOST and back under the Torah, a situation that will lead to you being condemned to HELL?

Wake up, you who want to be under the Law, who want to be Jewish! Wake up and accept who you are SPIRITUALLY in CHRIST or you are going to be LOST FOREVER!


nasa

The above is an excerpt taken from, "Marcion, My Heart Yearns For You."

Btw, for anyone who cares, Light of Mashiach has this on their website:

http://www.lightofmashiach.org/faithstatement.html

Light Of Mashiach!
Statement Of Faith
1. We believe that YHVH is the one true G-d.

2. We believe that YHVH created all things.

3. We believe YHVH is One and that trinity/tri-unity doctrines are inaccurate and misrepresent G-d.

4. We believe that the Scriptures are the divinely-inspired Word of YHVH.

5. We believe Scripture is complete and sufficient for our instruction.

6. We believe YHVH revealed His Sacred Name in Scripture so that we could know and use His Name.

7. We believe that Talmud and other non-Scriptural writings are not divinely inspired and do not carry the same weight as Scripture.

[B]8. We believe YHVH's Holy Torah teaches us the proper way to live our lives and that Torah was never abolished.

9. We believe in the deity of Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus the Messiah). We believe He was born of a virgin, lived a sinless Torah-observant life and performed many miracles.

10. We believe that Yeshua's sacrificial death brought atonement for mankind.

11. We believe Yeshua was resurrected and ascended to heaven to sit at the right-hand of YHVH.

12. We believe Yeshua will return one day to effect the New Covenant, to reclaim the full borders of the land of Israel for His people, and to establish a 1000-year Messianic Kingdom here on earth.

13. We believe salvation is a free gift and is not earned through works.

14. We believe the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) ministers, guides, comforts and empowers members of the body of Yeshua to live the life to which they have been called.

15. We believe Gentiles are not obligated to formally convert to Judaism because YHVH has already grafted them into Israel's Olive Tree, thereby making Gentiles fellow heirs and partakers in His covenants with Israel.


If at any time you guys wondered if Nasa "picks and chooses"; then you now have your answer. ;) I guess that part about following Torah while NOT being circumcised was missed.

[ChazakEmunah]

This is sad. G-d has specially forbidden Gentiles to recieve circumcision!


Do you people want to be under the Law? Did you not read the many warnings G-d gave in His book called Galatians? Do you not know that if you get circumcised, Christ is of NO MORE VALUE TO YOU AND YOU ARE LOST?
That if you convert to Judaism, you are LOST and back under the Torah, a situation that will lead to you being condemned to HELL?

Wake up, you who want to be under the Law, who want to be Jewish! Wake up and accept who you are SPIRITUALLY in CHRIST or you are going to be LOST FOREVER!


nasa
Hmm... Last time I checked a woman couldn't get circumcised... Maybe it's me but am I missing something here? :scratch:

Oh and nasa, thanks for proving my point about Paul the meshumad once again. I appreciate it. ;)

Boy I'm sure glad I don't believe in your "hell" anymore. It seems like that place would get awfully crowded with all the people who are condemned to it on a daily basis....

Oh and one last thing... It's nice to know that there are still people out there that believe that the Jews are going to "hell" for being fatithful to HaShem.

[ChazakEmunah]

The person who started this thread should be ashamed of themselves and question their committment to Yeshua and the New Covenent.
While I disagree that Henaynei should be ashamed of herself, I do agree that all should question their commitment to 'Yeshua' and the 'New Covenant.' It is this questioning that leads one to a deeper understanding of what Judaism is really about. May they (and you) strive to always seek out answers to their questions.


Quote from Ellen Kavanaugh: "Torah never commands any ritualized conversion of Gentiles!"
Let's see... I could care less what "Ellen Kavanaugh" has to say about Torah. And second, she's dead wrong. The Torah (Oral Torah) sets forth a process for a Gentile who becomes a Ger, and then desires to become a Jew.


Moving right along....



and you want to be in bondage again?[/SIZE]

This is a pretty nasty comment to your co-religionists...


and you want to be in bondage again?
Ger.... Remember that comment I made earlier about C*hristians calling Torah bondage? Well... Here's a perfect example.

[GerTzedek]

Ger.... Remember that comment I made earlier about C*hristians calling Torah bondage? Well... Here's a perfect example.I never disagreed with you on that point, dear.

I simply said that your correct point got lost in the melodramatics and hyperbole.

I should say, though, that nasa is not a good ruler to use to measure nominal Christainity. The average Christian doesn't have his virile passion against others, or eccentric ideas. He not only doesn't understand Judaism, he also doesn't understand basic Christianity, if he thinks it is okay to hate others he disagrees with.

It's gone past irritation. I feel terrible for him. The hate will eat out his soul.

[christianmomof3]

Mk 12:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Mk 12:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.


Jn 13:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Jn 15:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John 2:9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
10 Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202%20;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30545c)] to make him stumble.
11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

1 John 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

1 Jn 4:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And this commandment have we from him, That he who loves God love his brother also.

[ContraMundum]

Okay Contra, we live in different worlds. C*hristianity in the U.S. is quite different from C*hristianity in the UK. We're looking at our experiences through different lenses. I grew up as a C*hristian, spent a lot of time in Church, went to Bible studies, was active in youth group, went to a C*hristian school, and in fact all my friends growing up were C*hristians. So when I talk about a C*hristian experience, I can give an accurate depiction of C*hristian life in the U.S. Was it Evangelical? I don't know. None of the churches I was involved with were your standard Evangelical churches. But really, does it matter? You are giving your perspective on C*hristianity within the Anglican Church, and I am giving my perspective on C*hristianity as one who grew up in an American C*hristian atmosphere. Heck, I didn't officially leave C*hristianity/the Messianic Movement until Feb this year! So I can even tell you about it as an adult. So please don't be so quick to dismiss those who had spent most of their lives as C*hristians.

I still think that you, and others, are taking liberties with your Christian experience by rubbing it in the face of your fellow foru.ms sojourners.

Even your American Evangelicals spend hours studying the scriptures- including the Torah. What they don't study is traditional Jewish commentaries such as the Chumash. Converts to Judaism (and their anti-missionary teachers) tend to make the error of equating the two. They say : "You don't know Torah"- WRONG. What Christians don't know is (for example) the Stone Edition of the Chumash, or whatever traditional companion to the Torah you wish to drag up. By studying different traditional sources, they may come to differing conclusions some of the time, but serious scholars know that mostly the exegetical conclusions are the same in both Christian and Jewish circles.

Don't believe the anti-missionaries when they tell you the opposite, because they've never studied the Christian tradition and tend to look like fools when commenting on it- the same goes for the bapti-costal missionary types- they look ridiculous when talking about Judaism.

The fact of the matter is that most of the anti-Christian posts that are put on this forum are done so with poor motives. I don't see the anti-Christian types going over to the Catholic, Orthodox or Lutheran forums and attacking them. Why? Because they know they'd get answers there, and maybe even hammered and their faith (conversion) challenged. Here, they have a friendly, willing, patient and somewhat eccentric audience where they can air their grievences against Christianity without reprisal and without being called to account for their own beliefs and extravagant statements.

Funny, converts are always the worst apologists for their new religions. They tend to be polemic against their former religions, and to my eyes, they look like they are still trying to justify their change of mind to themselves and their audience. (Maybe that's why I'm such a lousy advocate for my beliefs too.)

[muffler dragon]

I still think that you, and others, are taking liberties with your Christian experience by rubbing it in the face of your fellow foru.ms sojourners.

Even your American Evangelicals spend hours studying the scriptures- including the Torah. What they don't study is traditional Jewish commentaries such as the Chumash. Converts to Judaism (and their anti-missionary teachers) tend to make the error of equating the two. They say : "You don't know Torah"- WRONG. What Christians don't know is (for example) the Stone Edition of the Chumash, or whatever traditional companion to the Torah you wish to drag up. By studying different traditional sources, they may come to differing conclusions some of the time, but serious scholars know that mostly the exegetical conclusions are the same in both Christian and Jewish circles.

Don't believe the anti-missionaries when they tell you the opposite, because they've never studied the Christian tradition and tend to look like fools when commenting on it- the same goes for the bapti-costal missionary types- they look ridiculous when talking about Judaism.

The fact of the matter is that most of the anti-Christian posts that are put on this forum are done so with poor motives. I don't see the anti-Christian types going over to the Catholic, Orthodox or Lutheran forums and attacking them. Why? Because they know they'd get answers there, and maybe even hammered and their faith (conversion) challenged. Here, they have a friendly, willing, patient and somewhat eccentric audience where they can air their grievences against Christianity without reprisal and without being called to account for their own beliefs and extravagant statements.

Funny, converts are always the worst apologists for their new religions. They tend to be polemic against their former religions, and to my eyes, they look like they are still trying to justify their change of mind to themselves and their audience. (Maybe that's why I'm such a lousy advocate for my beliefs too.)

CM:

You know that the two of us operate in a manner of respect first (or, at least, that is my inclination). Therefore, I will start off with an apology for any offense that I have brought to you. That was not my intent in anything that I have stated in this thread.

As you'll note, if you peruse through this thread from the beginning, my attendance started because of a hogwash statement about Jews being "blind". The continuance of my participation was maintained by agreement of such a sentiment by Ger from the Pauline epistles. This consideration of "blindness" is an extremely common misconception within American Christianity. For substantiation of this premise, I grew up being told that I knew the Jewish Scriptures better than most Jews. Would you or would you not agree that this puts a dampening on understanding the Torah from a Judaic POV. Please remember that most non-Christian Gentiles didn't have the upbringing that you did. There was maybe one or two Jewish families in my home town. I have lived on both coasts of the US and a few places in between. Trust me when I tell you that those demographics without a Jewish influence or contingency are ignorant of the Torah from a Judaic perspective.

I will sum up my consideration for you like this: Christians may know the Old Testament rather well, but this does not mean that are NOT ignorant of the Jewish Torah or NaKh. Without context, the same words don't mean the same thing.

[Talmidah]

Converts to Judaism (and their anti-missionary teachers) tend to make the error of equating the two. They say : "You don't know Torah"- WRONG. ...

Funny, converts are always the worst apologists for their new religions. They tend to be polemic against their former religions, and to my eyes, they look like they are still trying to justify their change of mind to themselves and their audience.But is that really fair either? There are probably many former Christians on here who don't bash their former religion. I've certainly tried hard not to do so and I bet others have as well. Again, most are simply speaking out of their own experience which may or may not reflect what is or has gone on in the whole. And almost all of here in the MF, are people who were messianic when we came to this forum. We got to know people and thus have more affinity for this particular forum than for one of the other ones.

[ContraMundum]

I can agree with you there, MD, but the conclusion that they know *nothing* about the Torah is what was most offensive.

I would never have converted to Christianity if I didn't think the Church had answers. True- the best (and most "Hebraic" or "Jewish") answers I got from Christianity was not from the missionaries or the MJs- but from the Catholics and the Orthodox. If I had relied on the musings of the Protestants or pentecostals (most MJs are basically pentecostal in their doctrines), I probably would never have given this religion a second chance. That's not to say that they know nothing either, they do, and they will improve too given time, but they didn't have the continuity I expected..... but I digress.

The whole thing is this, MD, you can't claim that the Church knows nothing about the Torah or Tanach because it doesn't follow the medieval Jewish sages like Judaism does. The Church never recieved those later luminaries of God. The Church (in its purest, most ancient form) has faithfully maintained what it recieved from the Judaism of its day, and nothing subsequent.

Theology develops. That's a fact, so eloquently explained by people like the Jewish sages and Cardinal Newman alike. The point of departure from each other, so early on, merely meant each developed from that same point in time in various directions. However, neither Judiasm or Christianity can turn back the clock, so neither can or will reject later customs, thoughts and traditions in favor of resurrecting some 1st C religions. Both traditions can only go forward- some exploration of more primitive ways and thoughts merely keep them both from going completely off the rails as they propel themselves into the future.

The point I'm making, rather long-winded as it is, is that both religions developed- from the same place and time. When you say "Christians don't know Torah", what you are in fact saying is that they don't conform to the religion that developed out of Temple Judaism that many now Temple-less Jews currently hold to.

I totally respect and even submit to much of the teachings of the Jewish sages- I'm not afriad to admit that, even though it constantly lands me in hot water with my peers, but when I read the teachings of the Apostolic Churches (then and now) regarding the Tanach, all I see is a mirror of what those sages have said- but with additional, sometimes superior input (and sometimes inferior input).

Anyway...I talk too much.

Cheers.

[ContraMundum]

Talmidah, you are never offside, IMHO. I accept your motives with great respect.

[Talmidah]

Talmidah, you are never offside, IMHO. I accept your motives with great respect.Thank you, Contra. That means a lot to me.

[muffler dragon]

I can agree with you there, MD, but the conclusion that they know *nothing* about the Torah is what was most offensive.

Please allow me to be the pedant that I am and clear something up: I have not once stated that Christians "know *nothing* about the Torah". I scrolled back through every post of mine on this thread to make sure. I have stated repeatedly that nominal Christianity is ignorant of Torah. There is a vast difference.

Here is the definition from www.m-w.com

1 a: destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics> b: resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence <ignorant errors>
2: unaware, uninformed

Maybe I should have included this definition before, but I'll clarify my POV so that we are not missing the mark.

When I said that nominal Christianity is ignorant of the Torah, I mean to say that nominal Christianity is lacking comprehension of what the Torah means from a Judaic perspective. And I have to admit that I consider this a matter of context. For those who have no Jewish influence throughout their upbringing, it is next to impossible to understand a Jewish text written by Jewish authors for a Jewish audience. Yet, this is precisely what nominal Christianity, in my experience, has attempted to do.

Hopefully this clears up from where I was coming.

I would never have converted to Christianity if I didn't think the Church had answers. True- the best (and most "Hebraic" or "Jewish") answers I got from Christianity was not from the missionaries or the MJs- but from the Catholics and the Orthodox. If I had relied on the musings of the Protestants or pentecostals (most MJs are basically pentecostal in their doctrines), I probably would never have given this religion a second chance. That's not to say that they know nothing either, they do, and they will improve too given time, but they didn't have the continuity I expected..... but I digress.

Truth be told, my experience and understanding would probably have been vastly different had I grown up in an Orthodox home. I have learned a small amount of their doctrine and dogma, and it is quite different from Western and Protestant thinking.

The whole thing is this, MD, you can't claim that the Church knows nothing about the Torah or Tanach because it doesn't follow the medieval Jewish sages like Judaism does. The Church never recieved those later luminaries of God. The Church (in its purest, most ancient form) has faithfully maintained what it recieved from the Judaism of its day, and nothing subsequent.

I have never made this claim, CM. Medieval is, IMO, a much too late consideration of discussion, and I've never broached this consideration in this forum.

Theology develops. That's a fact, so eloquently explained by people like the Jewish sages and Cardinal Newman alike. The point of departure from each other, so early on, merely meant each developed from that same point in time in various directions. However, neither Judiasm or Christianity can turn back the clock, so neither can or will reject later customs, thoughts and traditions in favor of resurrecting some 1st C religions. Both traditions can only go forward- some exploration of more primitive ways and thoughts merely keep them both from going completely off the rails as they propel themselves into the future.

The point I'm making, rather long-winded as it is, is that both religions developed- from the same place and time. When you say "Christians don't know Torah", what you are in fact saying is that they don't conform to the religion that developed out of Temple Judaism that many now Temple-less Jews currently hold to.

I completely concur that belief systems evolve; however, I have no reason to believe that the main beliefs behind Torah have ever altered.

I totally respect and even submit to much of the teachings of the Jewish sages- I'm not afriad to admit that, even though it constantly lands me in hot water with my peers, but when I read the teachings of the Apostolic Churches (then and now) regarding the Tanach, all I see is a mirror of what those sages have said- but with additional, sometimes superior input (and sometimes inferior