What's wrong with 'Christian'?

[simchat_torah]

There seems to be some debate lately whether Messianic Jews should (or do) reject the term 'christian'. To be honest, I never 'rejected' the term, but opted to not use it because of what it has come to mean today.

However, this recent discussion sparked my interest and I began reading a number of materials out of an honest inquiry of the word... and why should I reject it or claim it. Personally, I wanted to get to the bottom of it because I didn't want to offend those who felt they were following their 'true calling' as christians, and yet I didn't want to offend those who feel the word should be tossed out of our vocabulary as descriptive of a Messianic.

So, the Quest begins.

I started with one of the more definitive works in MJ'ism, David Stern's Messianic Jewish Manifesto:


According to Scripture the word “Christian” does not denote Jewish believers in Yeshua at all. The New Testament calls them followers of “this way” (Acts 9:2, 22:4) and “Nazarenes” (Acts 24:5)… the New Testament does not call Jewish believers “Christians”. According to New Testament usage the term “Christian” is reserved for Gentile believers in the Jewish Messiah Yeshua.

Acts 11:19-26 tells how in Antioch some Jewish believers… did not limit their proclamation of Yeshua as the Messiah to Jews, as had been the norm previously, but broke new ground… Many of these Gentiles came to believe… the other Gentiles in Antioch… coined the word christianoi (Christians),… Thus the term “Christian” was invented by Gentiles to describe Gentiles in a Gentile environment. The New Testament tells us explicitly that “the disciples
were first called Christians in Antioch.” [Acts 11:26] *Messianic Jewish Manifesto; David Stern; p. 32*

It seems from this context that 'christian' was explicitly used to describe the Gentile converts. Stern continues:

“Messianic” comes from the Hebrew mashiach, which means "anointed.” “Christian” comes from Greek christos, which is the [Greek] New Testament’s translation of mashiach AND MEANS THE SAME THING. …in the New Testament the term “Christian,” which appears only three times, apparently denotes being a Gentile believer in Yeshua, so that scripturally “Jewish Christian” is a contradiction in terms. *Messianic Jewish Manifesto; David Stern; p. 20*

Here, Stern makes a point that it is almost 'wrong' to label a Jewish believer as 'christian'.

It was said that Martin Chernoff, an important figure in Messianic History, felt that the true term was 'Hebrew Christian'. Chernoff either changed his mind while he was in presidency of the MJAA (previously known as the HCAA) or the quote used was taken out of context. It was Chernoff himself that spearheaded a movement in the early 70's (while he was president of MJAA) to change the name from Hebrew Christian Alliance of America to Messianic Jewish Alliance of America. In an effort to find meaning in the traditions of Judaism, to define the movement, and to incorporate more substanance of Jewish worship, Chernoff and many at MJAA officially changed the name and began shaping the movement into a more Jewish scope... what they felt was more true to it's origins.


Martin Chernoff became the President of the HCAA (1971-1975), and led the group towards Messianic Judaism (1) (his sons, Joel and David, also served as Presidents - 1979-1983 and 1983-1987, respectively).(2) In June of 1973, a motion was made to change the name of the HCAA to the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA); however, a two-thirds majority vote was necessary to effect the name change, and only 62% was received at this time. Two years later, though, there was enough support, and in June of 1975, the name was officially changed to the MJAA. (3)(1)Robert I. Winer, The Calling: The History of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (Wynnewood PA: MJAA, 1990),pp. 47-49.
(2)p. 59
(2) p. 50.

Why did they make this name change? Some point to the fact that 'christian' was not representative of Jewish believers. Others, including Chernoff and his sons, felt that a more passionate direction needed to be established towards traditional Judaism.


"the name change was significant as more than just a semantical expression;it represented an evolution in the thought processes and religious and philosophical outlook toward a more fervent expression of Jewish identity."
David A. Rausch, Messianic Judaism: Its History, Theology, and Polity (Lewiston, NY: Edwin Mellen, 1982), p. 77

So, out of a sense of definition the name was changed... not just an ourward name, but a name that would affect the inward expression of worship and relationship. David Stern has been quoted numerous times on the following statement, and is probably his most famous:
I am religious. Not Orthodox, not Conservative, not Reform, not Reconstructionist but Messianic.
He made it obvious that he did not express his faith through the term 'christian' but instead opted to declare Messianic. He even went so far as to contrast messianic with other sects of Judaism, not with christianity.

I haven't even begun to tap into the differences between what christianity has become today and what the original messianic Judaism stood for. That's a whole other discussion that would take some depth. I'm focusing more on the modern view in this thread (though I'm sure that's going to change... lol)

Now, my questions to everyone here are:

How do you/we label ourselves?
Do you feel it is inherrently wrong for a Jewish Believer to be labelled "christian"?
Is it a matter of preference or does it go beyond that?
Which does Messianic Judaism reflect more closely: christianity or Judaism?

Well, I hope this is a good kick off for discussion.
Shalom,
Yafet.

[Sabian]

So Christian is a man made term and so is Messianic Jew.
I still choose Child of YAH.
I'm looking forward to one FAMILY.
And I fail to see the FATHER's name in Term Christian or Messianic Jew.
I think we should be called by the FATHER's name.
Very Interesting research.
The term Child of YAH fits me fine.

[iitb]

How do you/we label ourselves?
I, personally, hate labels. Always the pessimist, I feel that as soon as people know how to label you they can figure out why they hate you.

To answer your question, when cornered on the topic, I choose the label "Messianic." I'm not ethnically Jewish, but I also don't feel that Christianity accurately represents what I believe.

Do you feel it is inherrently wrong for a Jewish Believer to be labelled "christian"?
Christianity has little to do with Judaism.

Is it a matter of preference or does it go beyond that?
It's definitely more than preference.

Which does Messianic Judaism reflect more closely: christianity or Judaism?
I think it varies from congregation to congregation. There are both Jewish and christian influences, that cannot be denied. It just depends...

[KelsayDL]

Well, the christians I see today bend their knees before idols, allow homosexuals to preach, hide child molestors in their leadership and allow athiests to teach the word of God to them, teach that God is a hypocrite and possibly a liar, teach without knowing it that Yeshua is not the Messiah.

All things are permissable in christianity, yes?

Apparently.

There is nothing wrong with the term christian. Theres just something wrong in christianity.

I don't label myself as anything anymore.

Maybe just a seeker.

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

How do you/we label ourselves?
When I came to the realization of Messianic Judaism I started by calling myself Messianic and thinking maybe Messianic Jew(Yet changed thought after much reading) I named myself Shamash Of Yeshua and have thought lately that I should have called myself Shamash of YHVH. Yet Yeshua is our King, Lord Yeshua setup as King by YHVH.

Do you feel it is inherrently wrong for a Jewish Believer to be labelled "christian"?
In terms of how Christianity came to be over the last 1700+ years, I would have to say yes it is wrong to name a Jewish believer in Yeshua or for that fact anyone to be named Christian. For the connotations the name implies from over the centuries leans toward Traditions of MAN.

Is it a matter of preference or does it go beyond that?
I don't understand which question this question applies to. So I will have to say beyond preference.

Which does Messianic Judaism reflect more closely: christianity or Judaism?
I would say that Messianic Judaism reflects more of what the true nature of what The Messiah Yeshua and the Apostles have taught in line with Judaism corrected. For we know that Yeshua did in fact correct most sects of Judaism, yet I don't see Yeshua creating a NEW Religion. I see Yeshua correctly teaching what YHVH was instructing since Moses.

Shalom,

Tag

[SonWorshipper]

Excellent Topic Yafet!



Now to your questions, (which right now will be short as I am preparing for Shabbat and also showing my house today to two prospects, pray that we will get a contract soon!)



How do you/we label ourselves?




Privately I consider myself a true believer. A believer in what? The whole word of G-d and the Holy Messiah who was given to us through a very specific plan that must be not set aside but followed and rejoiced in (Torah). As such I have come to call myself Messianic, or a Messianic believer or a covenant member of Messianic Judaism congregation. Messianic for short! I think that anyone that believes in Torah and all it entails, both the "Old" and the "New" and continue to follow what is written in there, upholding the L-rds Sabbaths, feasts, and other laws of living, should not call themselves Christian. Messianic seems to denote enough of a distinction to connote that and if others ask and you reply "Messianic" then you are given the chance to explain your beliefs.



Do you feel it is inherently wrong for a Jewish Believer to be labeled "Christian"?
Well that depends. If said Jewish believer is a believer of the things in Christianity, then I feel that they are no longer wanting to be identified with their heritage and have accepted another's Holy Days and Sabbaths and should call themselves Christian to denote that. I have seen many that take on the term Christian and say that they have "Jewish Heritage".



Is it a matter of preference or does it go beyond that?

Preference to the label? For whom? The Believer or others? I think that your expression of faith should define what you are called. If you celebrate Easter and Christmass, and Lent then you should call yourself Christian no matter if Jew or Gentile. If however you express your faith the same as Y'shua, by the things that He did on earth, celebrating Passover, and Sukkot, etc then I believe that this is the Judaism that was a continuation of what was given at Mt Sinai, and you should, Jew or Gentile call yourself Messianic.




Which does Messianic Judaism reflect more closely:Christianity or Judaism?





Neither. I believe that it is the true form of Judaism that has what lines up with the word from both and tosses the rest out! :)

[simchat_torah]

I appreciate the excellent responses. I'll wait to see what others have to say before moving along. I'm also glad that everyone is being honest, yet I don't want to step on toes and offend anyone.

I think I'll clarify a bit here concerning my questions.... I see there might be some confusion.


How do you/we label ourselves?


This question is posed both at the 'movement' (we) and at us as individuals(you). How do we label the movement? Hebrew Christianity as proposed by some? Or Messianic Judaism as proposed by others?

What do you tell others? Simply saying "seeker" or "believer" does not involve any connotations, which can be good or bad. Both of those carry no definition, and are empty enough that you get to define it totally on your own. This is fine by me... but since we 'communicate' as human beings, eventually you'll have to define where you stand. Thus, where do you personally fall in the mix? Are you in line with Christianity with a *twist* in your theology, or in line with Judaism with a *twist* in your theology? Sure, you can explain your twist, but eventually, you will resemble one of the two.


Do you feel it is inherrently wrong for a Jewish Believer to be labelled "christian"?
This one is more specifically addressing those of Jewish descent. Typically a "Jewish Believer" is a title reserved for those who go beyond Messianic Judaism and practice Orthodoxy (or another form of 'observant' judaism) yet believe in the Messiah. It's more of an evolved term as of late, and BrookLaw could explain it in more depth than myself. But just to clarify, I'm asking is it wrong for a person of Jewish descent who practices Judaism to be called a "christian" if they believe in the Messiah.


Is it a matter of preference or does it go beyond that?
Do these labels only go skin deep? Is it something that you would only prefer to be called, but either way is fine? Or is one way explicitly correct and one way explicitly wrong?


Which does Messianic Judaism reflect more closely: christianity or Judaism?
You may not feel that Messianic Judaism is either Judaism or Christianity fully, however... which one does it look like more? Do you honestly feel that it lies directly in the middle between these two poles? Or does it lean more closely to one end? Should it be all the way to one end of the spectrum?

I hope these clarifications help, and feel free to change the scope of your answer if this post helps you understand my questions a bit better.

Oh, and have a very very peaceful Shabbat everyone.
Baruch HaShem,
Yafet.

[Superman]

Thus the term “Christian” was invented by Gentiles to describe Gentiles in a Gentile environment.

I see where this has some credence, but I highly doubt that the Greeks at Antioch would classify Jewish believers of Jesus from the Gentile believers of Jesus with two different terms.

Anyone who professed Jesus as Savior is gonna be called a "Christian" in Antioch. People were not named "Christians" for their ethnic backgrounds, but for what they believed. The guy you cite even alludes to that, quoting that the disciples were called Christians. Jews that preached Jesus came to Antioch to preach in the first place, including Barnabas. You mean to tell me that the pagans called them something else?

Can you see two guys in Antioch saying "Hey, look at that Christian over there." And his friend says "No, that's not a Christian, thats a Messianic Jew!"

That's not very realistic...

What is more likely is that anyone who talked about Jesus, regardless of ethnic background, was called a "Christian." That makes more sense.

All that said, it doesn't bother me too much if what I call "the fulfilled Jew" (a Jew that has accepted all the promises of God, ie, Jesus) doesn't want to be called a Christian. However, Paul consistanly preached that we are one body in Christ, no Jew, no Greek classifications. And as a Gentile, I do feel a bit "excluded" or "segregated" from my Jewish brothers, because they would rather not identify themselves too close to me.

Reminds me of the confrontation Paul had with Peter in Galatians... :(

[sojeru]

Hi Sabian

And I fail to see the FATHER's name in Term Christian or Messianic Jew.
So you dont see HASHEM in "Y'HWdi Meshechi "?
wow- bro, remember not to limit things to the english.

[Henaynei]

Shalom,

I ask forgivness ahead of time, for I tend to run-on in posting since I write as I think (my, that is a scarry thought!!)

Paul consistently preached that we are one body in Christ, no Jew, no Greek classifications.Sha'ul also said that there was "neither male nor female." So, the distinction between the sexes no longer exists?? Of course not. Just another case of scripture taken out of context and used to support a taught/learned position rather than what the scripture actually teaches.

Re-reading the whole context of the section referred to above will show that section of scripture is specifically addressing distinctions as pertains to salvation only. It has to do with our individual standing before G-d, not G-d ordained roles or positions in this world/community.

THIS was the battle that Sha'ul fought constantly. That is, that all, no matter who or what, have equal access to salvation and eternal life, and stand on equal footing before the Throne of grace through Yeshua's sacrifice to cover our failure to obey G-d.

However, he still understood and kept the separations that G-d has placed for the Jew in His instructions (Torah). Sha'ul kept the Shabbat, the feasts and festivals, kosher and continued to make sacrifices in the Temple. Yet, did he see himself as better or superior to the non-Jewish believer? You know he did not!

Like the entire body of Torah instructions, these things were given to the Jews *for the purpose of separating the Jew for all time from the non-Jew, in this world.* If that makes you angry or uncomfortable take it up with the author - G-d. Scripture states over and over that this is so, though you have to include all of scripture to see it (i.e. Torah). This is what the statement "be ye Holy (separate, distinct, set apart) even as I am Holy" means.

In today's world people are very uncomfortable when they are not included in a valued group, or others separate themselves. In order to quell such actions, or to help themselves overcome self-generated feelings of inferiority prompted when distinctions that don't include them are made, often persons who keep such distinctions are labeled as elitists or other terms meant to detract or belittle the distinctions or persons who keep them. Simply, it makes us feel better.

The fact is that separate DOES NOT MEAN BETTER. It just means separate or different in some facet or function. Often it means a greater burden or greater responsibility - but it doesn't mean better.

By way of example:
I am the oldest child, just as the Jew is the "first born" of HaShem. Like me, for Jews it was not a position that was deliberately chosen and neither is it an office yearned for, trust me! (As Tevia said, "couldn't you chose somebody else for a change?") What is does mean is that I have greater responsibility to the family, just as the Jew has a greater responsibility to obey G-d. I have a greater burden to keep the traditions of the family and to represent the family to the world. The family name and reputation depends more greatly on my actions than that of the younger siblings, in general. I get away with less, the rules are more unbendable for the first born than the other children, etc.
Just ask most kids about this and they can more clearly articulate the role of first born and the envy based on mis-understood responsibilities vs. supposed privilege than can any theologian.

An other example:
The president of a company is no more important than the vice-president. The company by-laws sets out different and separate roles and responsibilities. The VP can choose to feel inferior but that is a problem with him, not the president or the person who chose the president, or with the by-laws.
Just as with Torah, and Jews who believe or non-Jews who believe, being first born, or the president in no way means that one is inherently better or that the other is less. Just because one *feels* inferior in no way means it is so.

And as a Gentile, I do feel a bit "excluded" or "segregated" from my Jewish brothers, because they would rather not identify themselves too close to me
The term christian, in today's world, is a term of believers of the Hellenistic or historically Greek cultural community. That means believers whose culture is based on all or most of what we know as the "Western" culture. Jewish, historically and by at least some definitions, is specifically non-Hellenistic. (See the histories of Khanukkah for discussions and views on this point.)

I do not see how a Jew refusing to be called a christian means that "they would rather not identify themselves too close to me." Do they fail to call themselves human, or sinners or in need of salvation?? How then does not calling themselves christian then do this? They are not christians, they are Jews.

I am a gentile. And, while I identify much more closely to the non-Hellenistic community, I identify myself as a Messianic Gerah Toshav - that is, a non-Jewish woman who is learning to obey Torah. I do not and never have identified myself as a Jew. I am not Jewish - even though I am mistaken for a Jew even by Jews sometimes because I keep more of Torah than many of them do - and I clearly state the truth when I am asked.

If and when HaShem allows, I will convert and take on the entire mantel of Judaism/Torah and the burden of *being Jewish.* Until then it is my valued opportunity to surround, protect, stand by and support Jews, Judaism and Israel, as a non-Jew. I in no way feel inferior or "second class" to any Jew I know. (Well, maybe Leonard Nimoy, but then who doesn't feel inferior to Mr. Spock?? But then, I'd have to admit that I don't actually *know* him either!)

I am excluded and segregated from being Jewish until G-d allows me to convert. It is G-d who has excluded and segregated me as it is He who saw to it that I was not born Jewish.

If an African failed to allow someone to call them Nordic would that too seem separationist? And how would it make the one insisting on such a claim seem to be in the eyes of the African? Is the African better than the Nordic? Is a lion better than a tiger? But calling a tiger a lion is just plain ignorant of the facts as G-d created them, nu?

Why blame the Jew for choices and rules/commandments that G-d made?

[Henaynei]

Shalom,

I ask forgivness ahead of time, for I tend to run-on in posting since I write as I think (my, that is a scarry thought!!)

Paul consistently preached that we are one body in Christ, no Jew, no Greek classifications.This is an old hackneyed statement and incomplete.

Sha'ul also said that there was "neither male nor female." So, the distinction between the sexes no longer exists?? Of course not. Just a case of scripture taken out of context and used to support a taught/learned position rather than what the scripture actually teaches.

That section of scripture is specifically addressing distinctions as pertains to salvation only not roles or positions in this world/community.

THIS was the battle that Sha'ul fought constantly. That is, that all, no matter who or what, have equal access to salvation and eternal life, through Yeshua's sacrifice to cover our failure to obey G-d.

However, he still understood and kept the separations that G-d has placed for the Jew in His instructions (Torah). Sha'ul kept the Shabbat, the feast and festivals, kosher and continued to make sacrifices in the Temple. Yet, did he see himself as better or superior to the non-Jewish believer? You know he did not!

Like the entire body of Torah instructions, these things were given to the Jews *for the purpose of separating the Jew for all time from the non-Jew.* If that makes you angry or uncomfortable take it up with the author - G-d. Scripture states over and over that this is so, though you have to include all of scripture to see it (i.e. Torah). This is what the statement "be ye Holy (separate, distinct, set apart) even as I am Holy" means.

In today's world people are very uncomfortable when they are not included in a valued group, or others separate themselves. In order to quell such actions or to make themselves overcome self generated feelings of inferiority prompted when distinctions that don't include them are made often persons who keep such distinctions are labeled as elitists or other terms meant to detract or belittle the distinctions or persons who keep them. Simply, it makes us feel better.

The fact is that separate DOES NOT MEAN BETTER. It just means separate. Often it means a greater burden or greater responsibility - but it doesn't mean better.

I am the oldest child, just as the Jew is the "first born" of HaShem. Like me, for Jews it was not a position that was deliberately chosen and neither is it an office yearned for, trust me! (As Tevia said, "couldn't you chose somebody else for a change?") What is does mean is that I have greater responsibility to the family, just as the Jew has a greater responsibility to obey G-d. I have a greater burden to keep the traditions of the family and to represent the family to the world. The family name and reputation depends more greatly on my actions than that of the younger siblings, in general. I get away with less, the rules are more unbendable for the first born than the other children, etc.

Just ask most kids about this and they can more clearly articulate the role of first born and the envy based on mis-understood responsibilities vs. supposed privilege than can any theologian.

An other example:

The president of a company is no more important than the vice-president. The company by-laws sets out different and separate roles and responsibilities. The VP can choose to feel inferior but that is a problem with him, not the president or the person who chose the president, or with the by-laws.

Just as with Torah, and Jews who believe or non-Jews who believe, being first born, or the president in no way means that one is inherently better or that the other is less. Just because one *feels* inferior in no way means it is so.

And as a Gentile, I do feel a bit "excluded" or "segregated" from my Jewish brothers, because they would rather not identify themselves too close to me
The term christian, in today's world, is a term of the Hellenistic or historically Greek cultural community. That means all or most of what we know as the "Western" culture. Jewish, historically and by at least some definitions, is specifically non-Hellenistic. (See the histories of Khanukkah for discussions and views on this point.)

I do not see how a Jew refusing to be called a christian means that "they would rather not identify themselves too close to me." Do they fail to call themselves human, or sinners or in need of salvation?? How then does not calling themselves christian then do this? They are not christians, they are Jews.

I am a gentile. And while I identify much more closely to the non-Hellenistic community I identify myself as a Messianic Gerah Toshav - that is, a non-Jewish woman who is learning to obey Torah. I do not and never have identified myself as a Jew. I am not Jewish - even though I am mistaken for a Jew even by Jews sometimes because I keep more of Torah than many of them do.

If and when HaShem allows, I will convert and take on the entire mantel of Judaism and the burden of *being Jewish.* Until then it is my valued opportunity to surround, protect, stand by and support Jews, Judaism and Israel. I in no way feel inferior or "second class" to any Jew I know.

I am excluded and segregated from being Jewish until G-d allows me to convert. It is G-d who has excluded and segregated me as it is He who saw to it that I was not born Jewish.

If an African failed to allow someone to call them Nordic would that too seem separationist? And how would it make the one insisting on such a claim seem to be in the eyes of the African? Is the African better than the Nordic? Is a lion better than a tiger? But calling a tiger a lion is just plain ignorant of the facts as G-d created them, nu?

Why blame the Jew for choices and rules/commandments that G-d made?

[sojeru]

Hi Hanaynei

Sha'ul kept the Shabbat, the feasts and festivals, kosher and continued to make sacrifices in the Temple. Yet, did he see himself as better or superior to the non-Jewish believer?

here, read this:
ALIENS

By Greg Killian

I am trying to understand how Gentile believers "fit" with God's plan for Israel.



1616 ger, gare; or (fully) geyr, gare; from 1481; prop. a guest; by impl. a foreigner:-alien, sojourner, stranger. ^ gur. See 1482.



This first series of verses pertain to the "alien living among you (Israel)":



Shemot (Exodus) 12:48-49 "An alien living among you who wants to celebrate the LORD'S Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat of it. The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you."



Bamidbar (Numbers) 9:14 "'An alien living among you who wants to celebrate the LORD'S Passover must do so in accordance with its rules and regulations. You must have the same regulations for the alien and the native-born.'"



He was allowed to celebrate Passover if all males in his household were circumcised. He had all the same rules that the Israelites had.





Shemot (Exodus) 12:14-20 "This is a day you are to commemorate; for the generations to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to the LORD--a lasting ordinance. For seven days you are to eat bread made without yeast. On the first day remove the yeast from your houses, for whoever eats anything with yeast in it from the first day through the seventh must be cut off from Israel. On the first day hold a sacred assembly, and another one on the seventh day. Do no work at all on these days, except
to prepare food for everyone to eat--that is all you may do. "Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread, because it was on this very day that I brought your divisions out of Egypt. Celebrate this day as a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. In the first month you are to eat bread made without yeast, from the evening of the fourteenth day until the evening of the twenty-first day. For seven days no yeast is to be found in your houses. And whoever eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Israel, whether he is an alien or native-born. Eat nothing made with yeast. Wherever you live, you must eat unleavened bread."



Eating yeast during Hag HaMatza was not optional.





Vayikra (Leviticus) 16:29-31 "This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves and not do any work--whether native-born or an alien living among you-- Because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the LORD, you will be clean from all your sins. It is a Sabbath of rest, and you must deny yourselves; it is a lasting ordinance.



He was required to observe the Day of Atonement.



Shemot (Exodus) 20:8-11 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens
and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.



Shemot (Exodus) 23:12 "Six days do your work, but on the seventh day do not work, so that your ox and your donkey may rest and the slave born in your household, and the alien as well, may be refreshed.



Devarim (Deuteronomy) 5:12-15 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.



He was required to rest on Shabbat.





Vayikra (Leviticus) 17:8-9 "Say to them: 'Any Israelite or any alien living among them who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice And does not bring it to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting to sacrifice it to the LORD--that man must be cut off from his people.



The alien "had" to bring his sacrifice to the same place an Israelite did.





Vayikra (Leviticus) 17:10-14 "'Any Israelite or any alien living among them who eats any blood--I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people. For the life of a
creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. Therefore I say to the Israelites, "None of you may eat blood, nor may an alien living among you eat blood." "'Any Israelite or any alien living among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth, Because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, "You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off."



He was forbidden to eat blood.





Vayikra (Leviticus) 17:15-16 "'Anyone, whether native-born or alien, who eats anything found dead or torn by wild animals must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be ceremonially unclean till evening; then he will be clean. But if he does not wash his clothes and bathe himself, he will be held responsible.'"



He was not allowed to eat already dead animals without becoming unclean.

(to be continued)

[sojeru]

Devarim (Deuteronomy) 14:21 Do not eat anything you find already dead. You may give it to an alien living in any of your towns, and he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner (ger). But you are a people holy to the LORD your God. Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk.



This is baffling...How do we have the same law and allow this?





Vayikra (Leviticus) 20:1-8 The LORD said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites: 'Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the community
are to stone him. I will set my face against that man and I will cut him off from his people; for by giving his children to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. If the people of the community close their eyes when that man gives one of his children to Molech and they fail to put him to death, I will set my face against that man and his family and will cut off from their people both him and all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molech. "'I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people. "'Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the LORD your God. Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the LORD, who makes you holy.



He was not allowed to offer his children to Molech.





Vayikra (Leviticus) 22:17-20 The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to Aaron and his sons and to all the Israelites and say to them: 'If any of you--either an Israelite or an alien living in Israel--presents a gift for a burnt offering to the LORD, either to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, You must present a male without defect from the cattle, sheep or goats in order that it may be accepted on your behalf. Do not bring anything with a defect, because it will not be accepted on your behalf.



His burnt offering was the same as an Israelites'.





Vayikra (Leviticus) 24:10-23 Now the son of an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father went out among the Israelites, and a fight broke out in the camp between him and an Israelite. The son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name with a curse; so they brought him to Moses. (His mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri the
Danite.) They put him in custody until the will of the LORD should be made clear to them. Then the LORD said to Moses: "Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. Say to the Israelites: 'If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible; Anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death. "'If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death. Anyone who takes the life of someone's animal must make restitution--life for life. If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: Fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured. Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a man must be put to death. You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.'" Then Moses spoke to the Israelites, and they took the blasphemer outside the camp and stoned him. The Israelites did as the LORD commanded Moses.



Blasphemer were to be stoned.

The same law applied to Israelites and aliens.





Bamidbar (Numbers) 15:14-16 For the generations to come, whenever an alien or anyone else living among you presents an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, he must do exactly as you do. The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD: The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the alien living among you.'"



The sacrificial law applied to both the Israelite and the alien.



Bamidbar (Numbers) 15:22-31 "'Now if you unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the LORD gave Moses-- Any of the LORD'S commands to you through him, from the day the LORD gave them and continuing through the generations to come-- And if this is done unintentionally without the community being aware of it, then the whole community is to offer a young bull for a burnt offering as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, along with its prescribed grain offering and drink offering, and a male goat for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement for the whole Israelite community, and they will be forgiven, for it was not intentional and they have brought to the LORD for their wrong an offering made by fire and a sin offering. The whole Israelite community and the aliens living among them will be forgiven, because all the people were involved in the unintentional wrong. "'But if just one person sins unintentionally, he must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement before the LORD for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made for him, he will be forgiven. One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether he is a native-born Israelite or an alien. "'But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the LORD, and that person must be cut off from his people. Because he has despised the LORD'S word and broken his commands, that person must surely be cut off; his guilt remains on him.'"



Unintentional or intentional sin...the alien is treated like an Israelite.



Devarim (Deuteronomy) 10:14-22 To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it. Yet the LORD set his
affection on your forefathers and loved them, and he chose you, their descendants, above all the nations, as it is today. Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer. For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing. And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt. Fear the LORD your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes. Your forefathers who went down into Egypt were seventy in all, and now the LORD your God has made you as numerous as the stars in the sky.



Tehillim (Psalms) 146:1-10 Praise the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul. I will praise the LORD all my life; I will sing praise to my God as long as I live. Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save. When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing. Blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the LORD his God, The Maker of heaven and earth, the sea, and everything in them--the LORD, who remains faithful forever. He upholds the cause of the oppressed and gives food to the hungry. The LORD sets prisoners free, The LORD gives sight to the blind, the LORD lifts up those who are bowed down, the LORD loves the righteous. The LORD watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked. The LORD reigns forever, your God, O Zion, for all generations. Praise the LORD.



God loves the alien (The implication is that he is chosen).

I Melakim (Kings) 8:37-43 "When famine or plague comes to the land, or blight or mildew, locusts or grasshoppers, or when an enemy besieges them in any of their cities, whatever disaster or disease may come, And when a prayer or plea is made by any of your people Israel--each one aware of the afflictions of his own heart, and spreading out his hands toward this temple-- Then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive and act; deal with each man according to all he does, since you know his heart (for you alone know the hearts of all men), So that they will fear you all the time they live in the land you gave our fathers. "As for the foreigner who does not belong to your people Israel but has come from a distant land because of your name-- For men will hear of your great name and your mighty hand and your outstretched arm--when he comes and prays toward this temple, Then hear from heaven, your dwelling place, and do whatever the foreigner asks of you, so that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you, as do your own people Israel, and may know that this house I have built bears your Name.





The alien was to be allotted a share of the land in which he settled:



Yechezkel (Ezekiel) 47:21-23 "You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who have settled among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. In whatever tribe the alien settles, there you are to give him his inheritance," declares the Sovereign LORD.



Consider also that Caleb received an inheritance and that he was NOT a descendent of Jacob:



Bereshit (Genesis) 15:12-21 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a good old age. In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure." When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates-- The land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girga*****s and Jebusites."



Bamidbar (Numbers) 32:12 Not one except Caleb son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite and Yahoshua (Joshua) son of Nun, for they followed the LORD wholeheartedly.'



Devarim (Deuteronomy) 1:36 Except Caleb son of Jephunneh. He will see it, and I will give him and his descendants the land he set his feet on, because he followed the LORD wholeheartedly."





5237 nokriy, nok-ree'; from 5235 (second form); strange, in a variety of degrees and applications (foreign, non-relative, adulterous, different, wonderful):-alien, foreigner, outlandish, strange (-r, woman).

[sojeru]

Devarim (Deuteronomy) 17:14-15 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, "Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us," Be sure to appoint over you the king the LORD your God chooses. He must be from among your own brothers. Do not place a foreigner (ish) over you, one who is not a brother Israelite.



This stranger is different too (this is our nokree).



Devarim (Deuteronomy) 15:1-5 At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts. This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel the loan he has made to his fellow Israelite. He shall not require payment from his fellow Israelite or brother, because the LORD'S time for canceling debts has been proclaimed. You may require payment from a foreigner, but you must cancel any debt your brother owes you. However, there should be no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you, If only you fully obey the LORD your God and are careful to follow all these commands I am giving you today.





Devarim (Deuteronomy) 23:19-20 Do not charge your brother interest, whether on money or food or anything else that may earn interest. You may charge a foreigner interest, but not a brother Israelite, so that the LORD your God may bless you in everything you put your hand to in the land you are entering to possess.





God Fearer



II Luqas (Acts) 10:1-8 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. He and all his family were devout and God-
fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, "Cornelius!" Cornelius stared at him in fear. "What is it, Lord?" he asked. The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Tzefet (Peter). He is staying with Simon the tanner, whose house is by the sea." When the angel who spoke to him had gone, Cornelius called two of his servants and a devout soldier who was one of his attendants. He told them everything that had happened and sent them to Joppa.



Cornelius gets baptized with the Holy Spirit.





Kohelet (Ecclesiastes) 8:12 Although a wicked man commits a hundred crimes and still lives a long time, I know that it will go better with God-fearing men, who are reverent before God.



II Luqas (Acts) 2:1-13 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia,
Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (Both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?" Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine."





II Luqas (Acts) 13:26-31 "Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent. The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Yeshua, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead, And for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.



II Luqas (Acts) 13:46-51 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. For this is what the Lord has commanded us: "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'" When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. The word of the Lord spread through the whole region. But the Jews incited the God-fearing women of high standing and the leading men of the city. They stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region. So they
shook the dust from their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium.





II Luqas (Acts) 17:1-4 When they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, Explaining and proving that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead. "This Yeshua I am proclaiming to you is the Christ," he said. Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and not a few prominent women.





4576 sebomai, seb'-om-ahee; mid. of an appar. prim. verb; to revere, i.e. adore:-devout, religious, worship.





II Luqas (Acts) 17:16-17 While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there.



Conclusion:



Yeshayah (Isaiah) 56:2-8 Blessed is the man who does this, the man who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil." Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely exclude me from his people." And let not any eunuch complain, "I am only a dry tree." For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant-- To them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be
cut off. And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant-- These I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations." The Sovereign LORD declares--he who gathers the exiles of Israel: "I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered."
This study was written by Greg Killian.

Comments may be submitted to:


Greg Killian

201 Marqos (Mark)sfield Circle #6

Louisville, Kentucky 40222


Internet address: gkilli@aol.com

Web page: http://members.aol.com/gkilli/home/


502-425-8956



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Send comments to Greg Killian at his email address: gkilli@aol.com. (gkilli@aol.com.)



ME: so there isnt much difference at all between the gentile and Born citizen Israeli

[Henaynei]

so there isnt much difference at all between the gentile and Born citizen Israeli
The primary (but not exclusive) distinction is that the Ger is one living among the commonwealth of Israel, not actually a Jew, but obeying all the pertainent Laws. This is not the same as a Gentile who is a non-Jew that does not keep Torah - believer or not.

There do remain some distinctions, as pointed out by Mr. Killian - whose scholarship I admire and have read for years - that remain even for the Ger Toshav. He is still not a Jew.

[sojeru]

never was it stated that the Ger is Israeli/Jew- however only that there is very little difference if any (in which there are-the ger does have NO NEED to be circumcised UNLESS he wants to partake of pesach, is one example.)

[Henaynei]

Shalom Sojeru,
You and I are in agreement on this subject :0)

May G-d grant to you health, peace, prosperity and security as you bring honor to His Name and comfort His people in this new year - L'Shanah Tovah...

Henaynei

[sojeru]

intresting, where do you have your community?

[Henaynei]

We are currently in west central Florida.

We were part of a local MJ community whose leader claimed Torah observance but where those who visibly kept Torah were branded as extremists and trouble makers by those who wanted to be call Jews but did not want to keep any of Torah except that which seemed expedient or good to them. One might call them quasi-nomians.

These also turned out to be the major tithers in a small and struggling community. Our presence over several years was making them uncomfortable and was jeopardizing the existence of the community at large.

We are currently seeking G-d for direction in a vision He gave my husband several years ago - a non-synagogual study group. This group would be designed to teach and raise up congregants and leaders outside of the MJ synagogue who were Torah observant and who would be the grass roots in MJ synagogues that would support and respond to Rabbis who are called to lead Torah observant MJ congregations but have a majority of "church-y" members who resist true Torah for the love of G-d.

We seek to keep Torah and the traditions all, unless one can show where or why one specific tradition or another is in conflict with Scripture.

This is in direct conflict with a great many "MJs" whose stand is "show me why and I'll consider it" rather than "I'll do it until someone shows me shy not."

This is poorly explained, and I apologize.

[yod]

Jews that preached Jesus came to Antioch to preach in the first place, including Barnabas. You mean to tell me that the pagans called them something else?

Can you see two guys in Antioch saying "Hey, look at that Christian over there." And his friend says "No, that's not a Christian, thats a Messianic Jew!"
It isn't as far fetched as it seems. Jews remained jewish when they came to faith in Yeshua. They were a different sect within many sects of Judaism, but jewish nonetheless. However, a gentile who converted to judaism before Yeshua was called a Ger ("God Fearer" in the book of Acts) but what would they call a Greek ("Hellen" is translated as gentile in the NT) who had converted to this particular sect? They weren't jewish or even a prostelyte because they had not been circumcised. So it entirely likely that the jews came up with a name for these gentiles...and the jews were just called jews because, after all, they were doing what the God of Israel had told them. Did they become something other than jewish by virtue of that?



How do you/we label ourselves?

there is a difference between a christian and a messianic and words are meant to communicate ideas.
I would call myself messianic if I am communicating with someone who would understand what I meant by that. I would call myself christian otherwise.


Do you feel it is inherrently wrong for a Jewish Believer to be labelled "christian"?
That would be a matter of their preference. Again, if you are trying to say "a jew who believes in Yeshua" and the hearer doesn't understand the terms then it would be expedient just to say "christian" because the point is understood.


Is it a matter of preference or does it go beyond that?
With some people it does....but I avoid that kind of baggage.


Which does Messianic Judaism reflect more closely: christianity or Judaism?
Biblical judaism and biblical christianity.

Unless we are talking about a messianic congregation that is hung up in all the "stuff" of rabbinic judaism.

[Globexgirl]

I can see why you wouldn't want to be called a Christian, because Christians really have grown a horrible name among non-believers. It's just a select few that can ruin the idea of Christianity for everyone, even if there are so many out there that really are believers and followers (well, they try hard to follow anyway) in the Christian ways. I personally think there are two kinds of Christians: Those who say they are Christian, have prayed, and do nothing about it. Sure they may go to Church sometimes, but they don't really try to follow the Christian ways.

And then there are those that become Christians, and do try to change there lives. It may not happen overnight, it may even take a couple years. But they see themselves as instruments of God and try to do as they think God would want them to do or what the know God wants them to do by means of a vision or something.

It's because of the first group that we have been given such a bad name, but there are so many Christians out there that really do take it serious and are honestly good people through Christ's love. It makes me so angry that just the few in the first group had to ruin the name for everyone. Although, i do stand proudly behind my religion and make it quite obvious that I am a proud Christian and follower of the Christian way. I also take it as a personal challenge to be kind to everyone and anyone even if they insult my religion or anything about me.

[Higher Truth]

Many who are of Jewish heritage, and who bellieve in Jesus /Yeshua do not even call themselves Mesianic anymore because of all of the negative connotations that are associated with many that are now claiming to be "Messianics". They choose to refer to themselves as Jewish believers.

[Higher Truth]

Below is a link to an article from one of the many sites that I frequent on a regular basis.The webmaster, who claims to be Christian [although her views are not typical of the mainstream] has an interesting view of things Messianic from outside of the bubble.


http://www.SeekGod.ca/spreadingroots.htm

[Superman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by: Superman
Paul consistently preached that we are one body in Christ, no Jew, no Greek classifications.

This is an old hackneyed statement and incomplete.

How so? Your comments that follow reaffirm exactly what I was getting at:

Sha'ul also said that there was "neither male nor female." So, the distinction between the sexes no longer exists?? Of course not. Just a case of scripture taken out of context and used to support a taught/learned position rather than what the scripture actually teaches.

That section of scripture is specifically addressing distinctions as pertains to salvation only not roles or positions in this world/community.

I agree that Paul was addressing issues in regards to God's view of man in salvation. The whole problem of the Galatian church was that Gentiles were trying to become Jewish, as if that was supposed to make them properly saved.

My point is this: If God makes no distinction of race/gender/social class in regards to who can be saved, then we as "saved" people should not view each other that way when it comes to our relationships with each other. I don't see why I cannot think of someone as a fellow-believer, I must also attach a name to distinguish him from me. Im not saying that Jews must throw out their heritage, be proud of it if you like. But all of that should have nothing to do with my relationship to you as a fellow-bheliever in Christ.

The separation and classification of different peoples was actually brought on by SIN. God separated the nations when they tried to build a tower to reach Heaven. Therefore, I don't think it is necessary to go and chop up the Body of Christ into sub-catagories because someone was born a Jew and others weren't. To me, that smacks of arrogance. The fact one may be of Jewish decent, a female, or whatever has no bearing on who they are in Christ, and that is how I divide people, are they saved, or unsaved.

This may be off-topic, but the other day I was watching a Christian show about "The Black Church." And there was a panel of ministers and it was an open forum discussing issues only involved with blacks and their churches. For most of the show, all of the experts stayed within the confines of "the Black Church is this... The Black Church needs to do that... This is wrong with the Black Church..." etc.

Of 12 panalists on there, only one bothered to get up and say "We need to remember that the word "church" does not mean there is a Black Church and a White Church, etc, but One Church." I think that is important to remember.

It's quite en vogue to have "The Jewish Church" "The Black Church" or all these other separate "Churches." I wonder what these guys would have to say about a "White Church." Sounds racist, doesn't it? How is then that other ethnic groups can do that?

That is not to say Im calling Blacks or Jews racist, (because I am not) Im saying that perhaps people that segregate themsleves based on ethnicity never considered how others feel about being excluded because they are "different." Being a white male, if I started an orginization that only catered to white Anglo-Saxons, I'd be dubbed a racist by everyone. But if a Black or a Jew or a Latino does it, its heritage. That's a crock. But let me get back on topic.... Just had to get that out of my system...

I think if we put effort into separating ourselves into groups, we will begin to look internally more than externally. Being proud of a heritage is one thing, taking it an extra step to divide the Church into "multiple churches" is bad. That is why I dont like the concept of denominations, although I understand it cant be helped when doctrines differ.

It requires effort to to be separate, and as I said, Paul rebuked Peter for separating himslef from the Gentiles at Antioch, and that separation was based on holding onto their heritage. I believe to have an "Us and Them" attitude in the Church is no different. That is why in the Church, there are no Jews/Gentiles/Male/Female/Bond/Free. You are my spiritual brother in Christ, and I don't think you should expend the effort to take natural divisions and bring it into Christ. :)

[Henaynei]

You are my spiritual brother in Christ, and I don't think you should expend the effort to take natural divisions and bring it into Christ.
LOL
No, I am your spiritual *sister* - but I guess using your argument I have to be your to be your "spiritual brother," even though G-d made me female.

Brother, G-d made these distinctions - see posts in "Chosen people" - it is He who said the Jew was separate and unique.

As to salvation all have equal access - but not all have the same position. Anymore than in a family - the husband is the head, not the wife - because G-d so ordained it, a G-d made division of office/purpose/calling.

He whom you call "Christ" is the self-same G-d who said the Jew is "high above all the nations," "above all the peoples of the earth" - and in Him is no shadow of turning, neither has He changed His mind.

These are NOT natural divisions, rather they are G-d made divisions.

[Higher Truth]

Romans 2

28 For he is not a Jew that is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that outwardly in flesh;
29 but he is a Jew that is one inwardly, and circumcision is of heart, in spirit, not in letter; of whom the praise is not from men, but from God.

Before Abraham there was no distinction. Abraham was chosen because of obedience, not bloodline.

[yod]

As someone who considers myself to be messianic, I have to agree that these distinctions are for the most part extremely artificial. There are sincere people on both sides of this discussion who are just wrong (biblically (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=john+17%3A21) speaking)

Yeshua broke down the wall of partition. Who are we to reconstruct it?

shame, shame, shame....

[Henaynei]

As someone who considers myself to be messianic, I have to agree that these distinctions are for the most part extremely artificial. There are sincere people on both sides of this discussion who are just wrong (biblically (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=john+17%3A21) speaking)

Yeshua broke down the wall of partition. Who are we to reconstruct it?

shame, shame, shame....
Shame? Wall of Partition?

You can't claim what ever you want to be the wall of partition.

Yeshua is not some separate or higher G-d who can over rule that angry separatist G-d of the OT!! He is the SAME G-d who stated many times that the Jew is unique and chosen. Not better, but definately different.

Why must the body of Messiah fall into the same cesspool of the lies of political correctness that says we all have to be the same in order to be equal!?

The middle wall of partition was the fact that prior to Yeshua's sacrifice the only way to obtain the righteousness that led to eternal life and a relationship with G-d was through the sacrifices in the Temple (done with a contrite and humble obedience). With Yeshua's sacrifice a perfect sacrifice was made once for all - those who kept Torah and those who didn't but also submitted to G-d. We all became one in our access to righteousness and a relationship with G-d.

But prophesy in and out of the Ketuvim Natzrim is replete with clear references to the special place Jews STILL have in the scheme of G-d's world and plans.

Our wanting it to be different or feeling somehow slighted because we are not the same as the Jews in no way obligates G-d or the Jews to agree that things are not as they are. This is what He set up and we have no right to insist that it work our way.

Here is the context about the middle wall of partition - it deals specifically with access to salvation and nothing else.


2:12 That (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3754&version=kjv) at (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722&version=kjv) that (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1565&version=kjv) time (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2540&version=kjv) ye were (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2258&version=kjv) without (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5565&version=kjv) Christ, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5547&version=kjv) being aliens (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=526&version=kjv) from the commonwealth (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4174&version=kjv) of Israel, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2474&version=kjv) and (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) strangers (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3581&version=kjv) from the covenants (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1242&version=kjv) of promise, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1860&version=kjv) having (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2192&version=kjv) no (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3361&version=kjv) hope, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1680&version=kjv) and (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) without God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=112&version=kjv) in (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722&version=kjv) the world: (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2889&version=kjv) 2:13 But (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1161&version=kjv) now (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3570&version=kjv) in (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722&version=kjv) Christ (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5547&version=kjv) Jesus (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2424&version=kjv) ye (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5210&version=kjv) who (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3588&version=kjv) sometimes (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4218&version=kjv) were (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5607&version=kjv) far off (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3112&version=kjv) are made (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1096&version=kjv) nigh (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1451&version=kjv) by (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722&version=kjv) the blood (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=129&version=kjv) of Christ. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5547&version=kjv) 2:14 For (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1063&version=kjv) he (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=846&version=kjv) is (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2076&version=kjv) our (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2257&version=kjv) peace, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1515&version=kjv) who (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3588&version=kjv) hath made (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4160&version=kjv) both (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=297&version=kjv) one, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1520&version=kjv) and (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) hath broken down (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3089&version=kjv) the middle wall (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3320&version=kjv) of partition (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5418&version=kjv) between us; 2:15 Having abolished (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2673&version=kjv) in (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722&version=kjv) his (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=846&version=kjv) flesh (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4561&version=kjv) the enmity, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2189&version=kjv) even the law (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3551&version=kjv) of commandments (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1785&version=kjv) contained in (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722&version=kjv) ordinances; (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1378&version=kjv) for to (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2443&version=kjv) make (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2936&version=kjv) in (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722&version=kjv) himself (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1438&version=kjv) of twain (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1417&version=kjv) one (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1520&version=kjv) * (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1519&version=kjv) * new (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2537&version=kjv) man, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=444&version=kjv) so making (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4160&version=kjv) peace; (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1515&version=kjv) 2:16 And (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) that he might reconcile (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=604&version=kjv) both (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=297&version=kjv) unto God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv) in (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722&version=kjv) one (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1520&version=kjv) body (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4983&version=kjv) by (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1223&version=kjv) the cross, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4716&version=kjv) having slain (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=615&version=kjv) the enmity (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2189&version=kjv) thereby (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=846&version=kjv) * (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722&version=kjv):

We are now, miracles of miracles, members of the Commonwealth of Israel - is that not good enough fo us?? Must we also claim the bed of the first born??

And now I really must sign off and get my head and heart straight for Yom Kippur.

Shalom
Henaynei

[Higher Truth]

Yod said:

Yeshua broke down the wall of partition. Who are we to reconstruct it?

shame, shame, shame....

HT:
Good point Yod. This is a phenomenon that has been created by the "latter day pharisees" so that they can have a feeling of superiority. You know how they love the "chief seats", and many use this as a stick to beat the non-Jews into a place of submission. The funny thing is that many of the people who take this stance are not even Jewish. :(

Check out Rev 2:9 and 3:9. The Messiah saw it coming.

[simchat_torah]

Before Abraham there was no distinction. Abraham was chosen because of obedience, not bloodline.

Quite correct, but after HaShem chose Abraham, he made his bloodline unique among the nations. Scripture makes this quite clear.

[yod]

Why must the body of Messiah fall into the same cesspool of the lies of political correctness that says we all have to be the same in order to be equal!?



I have no idea what that sentence has to do with this discussion. No one has said anything about being the "same"....

Yes, HaShem said in Exodus that the sons of Jacob would be a peculiar people and a nation of priests.

Yet, a "grafted-in" son of a Kennezite was chosen as a prince of Judah to spy out the land. Caleb was also given the choicest city, Hebron, the burial place of the patriarchs. He gave this back for the use of the Levites. I think this is a good analogy of the role of gentiles in the kingdom.

Kefa repeated to the diaspora that "we" are this nation of priests. He included gentile christians equally because the Lord had made it clear not to call any man unclean whom the Lord had made clean.

Paul says that all have been shut up in disobedience that God could show mercy to all of us. This is one place where the "no difference between jew or gentile, man or woman" correctly applies...

But ignore them.

Yeshua says that we, all of His people, should be One even as He and the Father are One....so that the world would know Him.

There is nothing wrong with cultural differences...and we each have our own roles. But to place any artificial distinction between jews and gentiles IN THE MESSIAH is direct rebellion against Jesus' prayer in John 17.


Our righteousness is no better (or worse) than that of any "christians". I prefer being a messianic but I am under no illusions of spiritual superiority over Catholics, Pentecostals, Baptists or whatever...the righteous man will live by faith.

Adonai Tsidkeinu

[simchat_torah]

I can actually see the point being made. Being "the same" is attributed to saying there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. In other words, those who say there is no difference are trying to do the same as many political liberal movements today... instead of destroying the root of racism (hate) they destroy races themselves.

Anyway, I completely agree. We are equal, yet we are not the same. That was the point that Sha'ul was making... though there is Jew and Greek, they are equal in HaShem's eyes. They each are unique in that they have a role to fulfill... both physically and prophetically, yet when each fulfill's their role they are considered righteous. They are equal in his eyes... by doing his will.

shalom,
Yafet.

[Henaynei]

I can actually see the point being made. Being "the same" is attributed to saying there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. In other words, those who say there is no difference are trying to do the same as many political liberal movements today... instead of destroying the root of racism (hate) they destroy races themselves.

Anyway, I completely agree. We are equal, yet we are not the same. That was the point that Sha'ul was making... though there is Jew and Greek, they are equal in HaShem's eyes. They each are unique in that they have a role to fulfill... both physically and prophetically, yet when each fulfill's their role they are considered righteous. They are equal in his eyes... by doing his will.

shalom,
Yafet.
Todah Yafet - Todah:wave:

Sometimes I get way to complicated in my explainations - you have put it so very simply, and clearly :blush:

G'mar Khasima Tovah
May you have an easy fast

[Superman]

Quite correct, but after HaShem chose Abraham, he made his bloodline unique among the nations. Scripture makes this quite clear.

*sigh*

Galatians
2:11
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

2:12
For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. *

2:13
The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. *

2:14
But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

This is the famous rebuke by Paul to Peter. In particular, I would like those of you who feel the need to segregate the Church based on your race to look at verse 14.

Paul said Peter "although he was a Jew, lived like the Gentiles." Now there is no way to tell what this exactly meant. We do know from the Gospels that Jesus and the disciples did not observe some of the ritual cleansings. We also know that Jesus reinterpreted the Sabbath laws. We also know Peter was the one who received the vision of the sheet with the "unclean" animals and was told to eat, and while he pondered this, some men came and asked him to come to Cornelius' house. While at his house, the Holy Spirit fell, and Peter was amazed. Peter took the vision to mean the Gentiles were now welcome into the family of God, and this partition, like the ritual sacrifices and cleansings and so on was now out of style.

I get the impression that a more relaxed view of Jewish customs and laws were probably not enough to be considered "live like a Gentile." Did Peter also do away with the food laws too? I don't know. So I cannot say just how much Peter "lived like a Gentile and not a like a Jew" but it was enough that Paul could use it against him.

But when more Jews came around, Peter and the rest who were already living like the Gentiles, snapped back to their old Jewish customs and split the Church.

Jewish Christians on the right, Gentile Christians on the left.

How do you think that made the Gentiles feel?

Paul called this a hypocritical thing to do.

My arguments are not about destroying races or cultures at all. My arguments are that when they get to a point they start forming factions in the Church, there is a problem.

Celebrate Passover or the Feast of Tabernacles. I think all of that is pretty cool. My heritage is based largely of getting drunk whenever an excuse comes around (stupid Europeans). But don't let it make you, make the Church a collection of several churches based on race.

Paul said it was hypocricy. I think it is also arrogance.

And let me point out to those of you who are saying I am taking the verse "There is no Jew or Greek in Christ" out of context... That statement is in the very same book that Paul relayed this story about Peter. This story is in part the basis for his arguments later, which is why I think you are wrong in saying I am taking this out of context. So think about that.

[Higher Truth]

Romans 11

16 Now if the firstfruit is holy, so also the lump. And if the root is holy, so also the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree were grafted in among them, and became a sharer of the root and the fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, it is not you that bears the root, but the root bears you.
19 You will say then, The branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well! For unbelief they were broken off. And you stand by faith. Do not be highminded, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, fear that it may be He will not spare you either.
22 Behold, then, the kindness and severity of God: On those having fallen, severity. But on you, kindness, if you continue in the kindness. Otherwise, you will also be cut off.
23 And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the natural wild olive tree, and against nature were grafted into a good olive tree, how much more these being according to nature will be grafted into their own olive tree?

a) And if the root is holy, so also the branches.

It does not say that the root is MORE Holy than the branches

b) You will say then, The branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
Well! For unbelief they were broken off. And you stand by faith.

faith is the key...not heritage.....when a branch is grafted in, it is fed from the same root and the same sap. Abraham was chosen for obedience. His father was an idol maker in Chaldee.

[Henaynei]

Romans 11:24 For if you were cut out of the natural wild olive tree, and against nature were grafted into a good olive tree, how much more these being according to nature will be grafted into their own olive tree?

a) And if the root is holy, so also the branches.

It does not say that the root is MORE Holy than the branches

b) You will say then, The branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
Well! For unbelief they were broken off. And you stand by faith.

faith is the key...not heritage.....when a branch is grafted in, it is fed from the same root and the same sap. Abraham was chosen for obedience. His father was an idol maker in Chaldee.
True, faith (a.k.a. trusting - as evidenced by obedience) is the "how" of getting grafted into the good Olive Tree. But the "key" to the scripture is the answer to this question: "What is the good Olive Tree." The natural wild olive tree was clearly life without salvation, without redemption.

Replacement theologists have for quite some time defined the good Olive Tree as Israel but an objective reading will belie that assumption.

The good Olive Tree is that into which Avram the pagan (he was chosen before he obeyed) was grafted - and he then had a living/salvific relationship with G-d and became Avraham the follower and friend of G-d. And descendants of Avraham, who continued to follow, obey and serve HaShem and thereby continued that living/redemptive relationship with Him became called Jews.

The only ones with access to the good Olive Tree prior to Yeshua's sacrifice were those who were circumcised and obeyed Torah with their hearts, i.e. they had a living relationship with G-d.

The good Olive Tree is that living/salvific/redemptive relationship with HaShem that only was accessible by becoming a Jew prior to Yeshua's sacrifice. The very fact that some Jews were broken off proves that the good Olive Tree is not Israel per se. When one is grafted in one becomes part of the commonwealth of Israel, but not Jewish.

Both Jews and non-Jews (a.k.a. Gentiles) can be part of the good Olive Tree. In fact that very scripture states that Jews would be grafted *back* in. Even in this scripture there is clear designation differentiating between Jews and Gentiles. Both have equal access to the relationship with G-d, but they are singularly identified as different entities.

We all have equal acess to salvation, we are not all Jews.

G'mar khasima tovah

[simchat_torah]

Abraham was chosen for obedience.

Aye, he certainly was. And from that point on his bloodline was unique among the nations.


His father was an idol maker in Chaldee.

So, are you now accepting Rabbinic literature?
just curious.

[simchat_torah]

Superman,

The point of contention being made in the Galations passage was over the Oral Interpretation of the law. The specific law in question states that one is not to associate with pagans. The Rabbinic code interpreted that to say one could not associate (well, specifically, sit down to dinner with) gentiles.... as gentiles were all considered pagan. However, in Acts 10 you can see the where the oral law was re-interpreted to show that gentiles were not necessarily pagan. There were gentiles who feared G-d and who worshipped him, thus were made clean.

It is correct that Jews are not better than gentiles. However, there remains a difference between the gentile and the jew... at the very least you have to recognize the prophetic difference which is played out even to the end of days in Revelations. However, please keep in mind that Difference does not equal Better (or superior).

G-d has a unique calling on the Jew and he has a unique calling on the Gentile. This does not place one above the other, but each must fulfill their role.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[Higher Truth]

quote:
So, are you now accepting Rabbinic literature? just curious.

HT:

All history of the Hebrew Tribes is not necessarily rabbinic.

All rabbinic commentary is not necessarily history.[review what they said about Messiah}

[simchat_torah]

Quite true Higher Truth. However, the specific refrence to Abraham's father being an idol maker comes from Rabbinic tradition of Abraham the iconoclastic monotheist.

It comes from Rav Chiyya the son of Rav Ada of Yaffo (Jaffa), in the collection of Rabbinic exegesis called the Midrash Rabba. Actually, it was originally used as a children's story. Typically, this story is told to children during the parsha Lech Lecha. Here is that story:

Abraham's father, Terach, was an idol salesman. One day, while his father was out to lunch, Abraham destroyed all of the idols in the shop but one. He left the largest one unharmed, and placed a big club in its hands. When Terach returned to the showroom and saw the destruction, he confronted Abraham. "He did it", Abraham said, pointing to the largest statue. "A girl brought a grain offering to the shop, and there was a fight among the gods over who would eat it first, and he destroyed all of the smaller gods." Terach scoffed at this; we all know that statues can't eat, or move, or pick up a club. Abraham than said to him: "Let your ears hear what your mouth has said."

Terach, however, was not convinced by Abraham's logic and, instead of rejecting idolatry and embracing monotheism, turned his son in to the pagan police. He brought Abraham to the king, Nimrod, on charges of idol-smashing and general heresy. For this crime against the state-sanctioned religion, Nimrod sentenced Abraham to be placed in a fiery furnace, fire being the force worshipped by Nimrod's people. Miraculously, Abraham entered the furnace, and then emerged from the ordeal unscathed.


So while your statement may be true, the actual story you were referring to is a part of Rabbinic literature as I stated in my previous post: Midrash Rabba

Shalom,
Yafet.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

So while your statement may be true, the actual story you were referring to is a part of Rabbinic literature as I stated in my previous post: Midrash Rabba

HT:

So then, that is the only place that it occurs in all of the Hebrew history.....think about it before you answer.

[simchat_torah]

No, but the other places it appears is referencing the original Midrash Rabba.

so, while it may appear in other forms of Jewish literature down through history, Midrash Rabba predates the other references.

shalom,
yafet.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

Midrash Rabba predates the other references.

HT:

One thing that this forum has not been lacking in is conjecture. I have seen all sorts of information that has been said to be scriptural as well, but no scriptures are ever supplied as proof.

On the bloodline issue:

John 1
12 *But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:*13*Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It is about His Blood...not ours...

Col 1
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

[simchat_torah]

I'm a bit confused as to how these scripture references are applicable to showing that you were not referencing rabbinic material when you brought up the story of Terah.

????

confused,
Yafet.

[Higher Truth]

The scriptures are in reference to the bloodline issue. I figured we had spent enough time "dancing" on the Abraham issue.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat,

There is a reason why I have an issue with this division in the assembly that is caused by this Jewish/now-Jewish concept.
I do not know if I mentioned it on another thread, but there are many people who are claiming that they are Jewish who really aren't. It seems that some people are getting false conversions to Judaism so that they can appear to have greater understanding on the Hebraic teachings, to be able to set up shop in Israel, and to use it as a superiority lever over the non-Jews.This only creates a caste system, and is not scriptural. There has been allegations on various sites and forums referencing this.

I found this posted on a Messianic forum by a lady named Kathryn Kern. Below is an excerpt:

But in this move, you not only have Jews that are following this Hebraic
path, but those that were of Goy birth.
Where do they fit into Messianic Judaism? This is an issue
that I have yet to see resolved. I feel that it was never adequately
dealt with and as a city that grows quickly without any planning for
streets and such, but just sprawls, the undealt with issues have now
started to deal with themselves, much to the dismay of the Messianic
Jewish community.

Since some taught the predominance of the Jew, some Goyiym not content
with being treated as a "second class citizen" tried to find how they
fit. This has been the root of a number of problems. Some of these
wandering Goy became groups that call themselves Two House and House
of Ephraim. Some simply did a geneaology search and miracuously found
that they had Jewish lineage and now they are not the "despised" Goy,
but Jewish. Others did not even want the question about their
background to be an issue and made up their own Jewish background.
Some made formal conversions. And finally, some have had false
conversions.

Any one of those situations can be enough of a problem for the
Messianic community, but add a person that wants power, position and a
following to it and you have a recipe for disaster, not just for the
Messianic community, but most especially for the witness to the Jewish
community. Imagine Barbara, the distrust or hatred that a
non-Messianic Jew would have, having dealt with any of the above. Of
course Jews for Judaism is going to jump on this. I would if I were
them. They do not like any inroads that Messianics are going to have
towards their followers, any more than the traditional Christians are
going to have with theirs. It is unavoidable that Messianics are going
to be in the crosshirs of both groups. Christians see them as Jews and
Jews see them as Christians. This issue is too broad to be covered in
this post, what is the crucial factor is uprightness before YHWH. You
are correct Barbara, we should live according to Scripture.


> Vicky said:
> They apparently are not Jewish, but had a "conversion" in Colorado by a
> "questionable " rabbi. Perhaps someone from Jews for Judaism would be
> able to confirm this information.


> Jews for Judaism? Now there is a group that just LOVES us! NOT!
> Okay. With thoughts of Jews for Judaism now being consulted to check up
> on the authenticity of Messianics, I'm through.


Barbara, when I was researching Trimm and dealing with his beit din,
since they were basing their house of judgement on the Jewish
principles of being Jewish, I had already found that James Trimm was
not Jewish. I received an email that Michael Detwiler, James' Av and
vice-president of SANJ, was also not Jewish but had bought a false
conversion from a rabbi named Lerer, in Denver. I called several of
the synagogues in Denver to try and locate the rabbi. It turned out
that Rabbi Nathan Lerer was not even a legitimate rabbi. I spoke with
Nathan Lerer. Yes he did the conversions of Michael Detwiler, his
family, including Christopher Detwiler, who also goes by the name of
Boaz Detwiler and Boaz Michael, of FFOZ, and of Ralph Messer. I also
spoke with Ralph Messer. The first time I asked about Nathan Lerer, in
reference to Michael Detwiler, he said that he did not know him. Then
after I spoke with Nathan Lerer, Messer admitted that he knew him and
that they had undergone a conversion of sorts, but that he did not
consider it legit, but more like an anointing. It was done in a
swimming pool. No test was given. Michael Detwiler first stated that
they had not undergone a conversion, then when he knew that I had
spoken with Lerer, admitted, but said that it was legit and they had a
long test to take. When I asked about the denying Messiah aspect of a
formal conversion, he said that Lerer did not ask and they did not
deny. Lerer said that he did know and they were making formal conversion.

Lerer made numerous conversions to Goy who now claim to be Jewish and
act as if they always were, lording it over others and setting up
their own organizations, marketing their "Jewishness", publishing
their version of Torah. Detwiler paid several thousand dollars for
his. Messer now calls himself Rabbi and has even issued a get, from
what I last heard. I dont know how many more have been issued. How do
you think this looks to the Jewish community? Does this make them want
to accept this Messiah that these liars, deceivers and theives speak
of with their agendas and marketing of the Jewish heritage?

I know that some from Jews for Judaism participate at this forum. I
have spoken with Moshe Shulman several times when he heard that I had
proof that Trimm was not Jewish. Where I may not agree with his
position concerning Messiah, he did not lie to me or present himself
as anything other than what he was, nor was he attacking. I had also
spoken with Mark Powers of Jews for Judaism. Mark never lied to me,
nor was he attacking. In fact we had some great conversations. I
enjoyed his questions and comments concerning if there was a Messiah.
And if you read this Mark, I am still researching some of the subjects
we spoke about. These two men conducted themselves uprightly in their
dealings with me. Yet James Trimm and Michael Detwiler did lie to me,
and did attack me. Michael later wrote a letter and called to ask my
forgiveness. Ralph Messer also lied to me.

Tell me how that looks for the Messianic community when these three
men, who are not Jewish, but claiming to be and have major
organizations behave so poorly. It is not Jews for Judaism you need to
worry about. And just because they are from Jews for Judaism, would
not negate the fact that they were the first to investigate Nathan
Lerer for false conversions. Their information in the matter is
correct. They were simply trying to protect their community and
rightly so. I wish the Messianic community protected themselves as
zealously. I verified all their accounts. That was all that Vicky was
referring to, not all Messianics.

Just as you may not agree with Vicky theologically, does not negate
the validity of her research concerning Trimm and Hargis. Vicky did
not come to this forum with her views about Hebraic Roots and such.
Her website was posted by members here, just for the Trimm/Hargis
research. You could probably read through a number of real Messianic
leaders websites and find things that you dont agree with.
Unfortunately there is no standard in the Messianic community and as
such there are a wide range of views out there. This is a problem with
no easy solution. All I can say is that despite not being Jewish and
not being a Christian anymore, I have felt a need to protect the
Messianic, the Jewish and Christian community from James Trimm and
all, who seek to deceive and steal.

And as to cleaning your fridge, I wish that I had your motivation. One
of my kids has teased me about an experiment in the back of the fridge. :)

Shalom, Kathryn



HT:
The above writing was originally posted by the webmaster of this website:

http://www.lebtahor.com/truth/trimm/jamestrimm.htm

[Henaynei]

The above writing was originally posted by the webmaster of this website:
I do understand what you say about wannabe Jews. I am a goy married to a Jew. I have been in this movement for over 17 years and have seen most if not all variations on that theme.

But AS a goy I have to say that there was a point where I had to come to terms with what I was feeling and face some truths.

1) why did I feel like a second class citizen?
I was in a strange and different culture and on from which my L-rd had sprung - they had "first claim" if you will.

The leadership in most MJ communities was greatly if not exclusively Jewish
2) what was right or wrong about that?
when one moves into a different culture (except in America where it works backwards) one works to understand and accommodate the differences in one's previous experience to the realities of the new culture. You learn the language, the customs and show respectful deference to them, at the least.

3) what happens in MJ communities where the non-Jewish members hold predominant authoritative positions?
in the vast majority of cases the non-Jewish Greek church culture out votes the Jewish members

the community becomes or remains just another flavor of christianity, but wearing the occasional Kippah and with their tzitzit tied to their belt loops while eating an All-American bacon and cheese burger at Denny's while demanding to know why their Jewish brothers are not eating bacon and cheese burgers - "Are you judging ME??" (note: all the Jewish fellow usually did was ask the *waitress* to be sure there was no bacon or cheese on his burger)

Yes, there are abuses in the MJ movement - but, as a gentile I can say this, MOST of the abuses come from the non-Jewish members who don't want anymore of Judaism than the terminology, esoteric sancta and a coveted "identity". It is these wannabe Jews that go around claiming to BE Jews and trying to "witness" to the Jewish community while garishingly obviously not Jewish, or closet gentiles who get found out. Actual Jews very rarely embarrass the movement.


While I am at it I have to bring this up -

Bringing up this issue is good and appropiate.....
But bringing into the discussion the names of these men when they are not here to defend themselves and when their names have not been part of this conversation is definately Lashon Hara. Your goal and statements could just as easily been accomplished without evil speaking. For Lashon Hara is evil speaking even when it is the truth.

Shalom

[Higher Truth]

quote:

While I am at it I have to bring this up -

Bringing up this issue is good and appropiate.....
But bringing into the discussion the names of these men when they are not here to defend themselves and when their names have not been part of this conversation is definately Lashon Hara. Your goal and statements could just as easily been accomplished without evil speaking. For Lashon Hara is evil speaking even when it is the truth.

HT:

I posted it as I found it.I find that the term Lashon Hara is a term that some try to hide behind while fleecing the sheep. It is a term that is paralyzing the Messianic movement because many are afraid to speak out.

[simchat_torah]

Since some taught the predominance of the Jew, some Goyiym not content with being treated as a "second class citizen" tried to find how they fit.
I completely agree that this is bunk. It should never be taught. However, it does not negate the fact that there is a specific calling on the Jew. Yes, G-d reconciles the Jew and the Gentile both as one before him. Yes, we are equal. But equal does not mean the same.

A Jew and a Gentile are equal before HaShem... mark my words.

However, they each have a different role to fulfill in G-d's plan. To defy this is to defy G-d himself. To deny the Jew or the Gentile from the plan of G-d is to call G-d a liar.

Is one inferior or superior for having a different calling? Absolutely not.

Now...

I figured we had spent enough time "dancing" on the Abraham issue.
I think what you meant to say was that you were scared to answer the question.

Just say you don't want to answer or choose to answer... just stop dancing and be honest.

As far as James Trimm... I find it interesting that it is you who has brought him into nearly every discussion that you participate. No one here mentioned Trimm. That's just something I've observed.

Lashon Hara? Yes, I believe it's been committed, just my opinion though. Had we been debating Trimm, it would be a different story. Yet you feel the urge to drag him into nearly every conversation on this forum...

tisk tisk tisk

shalom,
-Yafet.

[simchat_torah]

It is a term that is paralyzing the Messianic movement because many are afraid to speak out.

If there's one thing I would never charge the Messianic community with, it would be fear of speaking out. The Messianic community in general is one of the more vocal and argumentative (just my observances... lol) spiritual groups this side of the sun.

lol,
yafet.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

I think what you meant to say was that you were scared to answer the question.

Just say you don't want to answer or choose to answer... just stop dancing and be honest.

HT:
Answered it earlier Simchat, and I have decided that I will limit my fruitless debate this new year.

As far as Messianic groups being vocal, MJ...maybe. Messianic and Hebrew roots are bound by a few phariseen "bullies" who always cry lashon hara at the drop of a hat to try and keep the glassy eyed "Gentiles" in line. It is very sad. As far as Trimm being brought into the discussion, he was in the text of the post so he was automatically included.He has been discussed on quite a few forums lately along with a host of others.

BTW Simchat. I couldn't help but notice that your image [tree] is from James Trimm's kabbalah site.It is original artwork by Eric Sandquist isn't it? You guys must be pretty tight for him to let you use it. :confused:

[simchat_torah]

The tree pic is actually from Luana Fabri.

It's just sad that one has to be so direct in order to get you to answer one simple question. Are you messianic? Do you accept Rabbinic Literature?

These are/were simple questions. They don't need to be "fruitless"... you only make it that way by performing dance after dance.

Do you consider yourself under the title of 'messianic judaism'? yes or no.
see, it's that simple.

Do you accept Rabbinic Literature? yes or no.
again, simple.

I can think of a couple of better 'new year's resolutions' that would actually impact your veracity here at the forums...

Why don't you try with this one:
Stop dominating other people's threads by changing the subject and causing endless rabbit trails that eventually get their thread closed.

It's simple... stick to the topic. Don't make every thread about your hatred of James Trimm.

oh, and answering direct questions would be a nice bonus too, but eh, they are your resolutions, I can't make them for you.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[simchat_torah]

I know that you are reluctant to answer some of these questions...

It seems that in the other thread you practically denied being of the 'messianic judaic' persuasion, which would get you a quick ban form arguning here. I understand why you don't want to answer...

but believe me, I will take you up any time in the IDD forums if debating Yafet is all you're interested in.

But why don't you do us all a favor and save us the guessing game... Is the Messianic Jewish faith your own?

No one here really knows how to take you. You've kept yourself hidden in ambiguity... while reserving your own right to casually argue here in the MJ forum. Where do you stand?

again, is the messianic Jewish faith your own?

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:
The tree pic is actually from Luana Fabri.

HT:
ok...thats right...she was involved with Trimm and Eric on the original kabbalah site.I heard a rumor that she denied Yeshua as Messiah [it seems that some who were involved with James and his organization have done that ], the same as Steve Heliczer did after all of the "Hebrew" New Testament confusion.[amongst other things]Could you confirm that? http://www.teshuvah.com/articles/why_i_dont.htm


Simchat:
These are/were simple questions. They don't need to be "fruitless"... you only make it that way by performing dance after dance.

HT:
That is commonly referred to as projecting Simchat. You should re- -read your own posts before making comments like that.


Simchat:
It's simple... stick to the topic. Don't make every thread about your hatred of James Trimm.

HT:
I do not hate anybody. [see post below]

Simchat:
oh, and answering direct questions would be a nice bonus too, but eh, they are your resolutions, I can't make them for you.

HT:
See above response about projecting.



The comment was made on another thread that I had a "bone" to pick with someone.Nothing could be further from the truth. I do not know any of the people that I discuss topics with here on a personal basis, nor do I take the comments directed towards me personally. This is a forum, and the purpose of a forum is discussion and debate.The only "bones" that I try to pick, are the ones that I believe to be hidden in false theology. I "pick" at these with the hope of removing them, which reduces the chances of someone getting them caught in their spiritual throat, and hopefully reducing the possibility of a "choking" hazard. As children of The Most High, we are in a spiritual survivor series. There is no cash prize for those who endure, but sadly, the losers will pay for eternity.



:wave: gotta go....

[simchat_torah]

the same as Steve Heliczer did after all of the "Hebrew" New Testament confusion.[amongst other things]Could you confirm that?
Never heard of Steve Heliczer, and I only know of Luana's articles from about 4 years ago or so... and I downloaded the pic to my computer at that time (it was on her website). I didn't see a copyright attached to the pic so I didn't think of it as a crime. If it is a point of contention I can simply change my avatar.

It's really not that big of an issue to me. There are several Kabbalistic trees to pick from, this one was just well done.

I'm not really sure where you were headed with the 'projecting' comments, but it's obvious you want to avoid the question once again.

Oh, and by the way, I gave you a perfect opportunity to finally come clean with us... guess that won't be happening anytime soon.
We will either have to:
*be in the dark and never know whether you're of the Messianic Jewish faith
or
*summize from statements such about MJ'ism as "Can't honestly say that I belong to something until it is clearly defined" (though you seem to have a commanding knowledge of MJ'ism) that you don't hold to the Messianic Jewish faith.

I guess there's no reason for me to ask, you see... this would be one of those 'fruitless' conversations you referred to because you prefer to continue in deceiving us by 'keeping us in the dark' with what you believe...
Zoastrianism?
Messianic Judaism?
Christian?
Buddhism?

=========================================================

Well, after this fun little rabbit trail brought to you hand in hand by Higher Truth and Dr. James Trimm, I *submit* the idea that we return to the topic before this thread is closed.



Allow me to ask:

***************
Do the prophecies continuing through Romans on to Revelations about the "jews" become meaningless under the idea that there is no longer Jew or Gentile?
***************

hehe, I thought that might kick off a spark of discussion...

shalom,
Yafet.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat stated:

We will either have to:
*be in the dark and never know whether you're of