what is your view on the jewish concept of gossip?

[baruch4]

what is your view on Lashon Hara.

[Ivy]

I've wanted to know more about this subject myself.

I know I was taught that it's wrong to say something about someone that you wouldn't want them to hear....and I'm curious how that compares to the Jewish concept of Leshon hara.

[christianmomof3]

I have never heard that term until recently online. So I would like to hear it too.
But when I was growing up my momma always said "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." :)

[GerTzedek]

I'm sure most people here know the "pillow" story, but for those who dont....

There was once a Jew who had told lies about his Rabbi, and had considerably hurt his reputation. As the high holy days approached, he knew he needed to go ask for forgiveness.

He went to the Rabbi and said, "I know I lied about you. Please forgive me." The rabbi told him to get out of his office.

Well, he knew he had that coming, so he swallowed his pride.

The next week he went back and asked forgiveness a second time. "Are you nuts?" said the rabbi. "Do you realize the harm you caused? I will not forgive you!"

This time the man went away discouraged. He kind of had expected the rabbi to be more gracious, being a a RABBI and all... After a bit, he even felt a little angry. After all, he had apologized! He really did NOT want to talk to the Rabbi again, but he knew he was obligated to go ask forgiveness a third time. So the next week he went back.

"Rabbi, I know how angry you are with me. But please forgive me. I know how greatly I hurt you, and I'm sorry."

"Do you?" asked the Rabbi. "Are you?" He leaned back in his chair and pulled on his beard. "I'll tell you what. I have two requests. Do these two things for me, and I will give you my forgiveness."

The man was relieved and agreed. The rabbi went into the other room, and then returned with a feather pillow.

"First," he said, "take this pillow to the market square. Tear it open and scatter the feathers all over the square. Then come back and I'll give you the second task."

The man was surprised. He couldn't see what this had to do with anything. Maybe the Rabbi was a little meshugenah. But if this was what he needed to do....

So he went to the square, and did as the Rabbi had asked. The wind took up the feathers, and scattered them even further, blowing them behind bushes and down sidestreets. Then the man returned.

"Now," said the Rabbi, "I want you to return to the square, and put all the feathers back into the pillow."

The man's heart fell. "But that's impossible! Even if I spent all day, I could never find every feather now. The wind has blown them all directions... I can't gather them back."

"No," said the Rabbi, very gravely. "You can't. Nor can you gather back the words you cast out. There is no telling to whom and how far they have spread. Were you to go to every single individual to whom you told your lies, you would still not be able to recover your words, or the harm you have done me."

The man's face went from shock to sorrow and pain, and he looked at the ground. "I am so sorry," was all he could say, and he got up to leave.

"Wait," said the rabbi. "Because now you truly understand, because now you truly hurt that I hurt, I can forgive you. I DO forgive you. But we both will live with this."

[baruch4]

is there any clear definition of lashon hara?

here is 1:

Lashon Hara is any derogatory or damaging statement against an individual. In Hilchot Deot 7:5, Maimonides supplies a litmus test for determining whether something is or isn't Lashon Hara: Anything which, if it would be publicized, would cause the subject physical or monetary damage, or would cause him anguish or fear, is Lashon Hara.

http://www.torah.org/learning/halashon/review1.html

#2
Definition of Lashon Hara: Negative Comments, Whether True or False
It is forbidden to speak disparagingly of one's "chaveir" (lit. friend--we will discuss who this technically includes later). Even if the information is entirely truthful, it is called Lashon Hara. If the information also contains any fabrication, it is also called motzi shem ra (lit. putting out a bad name). The speaker of Lashon Hara violates the prohibition of "Lo telech rachil b'ameicha (Lev. 19:16)."

http://www.torah.org/learning/halashon/chapter1.html#Definition

#3
Lashon Hara - any derogatory or damaging (physically, financially, socially, or stress-inducing) communication.
Rechilut - any communication that generates animosity between people.
http://www.ahavat-israel.com/am/gossip.php

A case discussed in the Talmud involves someone who has purchased an item at a "no exchanges, no returns" market. The Talmud instructs us to say that it's a nice buy, regardless of what it is in reality. This case shows that truth is not always the deciding factor in ethical Jewish speech. In fact, the definition of Lashon Hara does not reflect truth or falsehood at all, but the damage that it can inflict.

[baruch4]

there is a concept of Lashon Hara being permitted when for a useful purpose.

1.
lashon hara refers to disparaging speech, not to criticism.

2
In terms of Hilchot Lashon Hara, I am indeed not a posek to give final ruling , but there is a concept of Lashon Hara being permitted when for a useful purpose. If the Lashon Hara is necessary to help in uprooting this evil and opposing it, then it is permitted. One just has to be careful not to go over board and speak Lashon Hara more than necessary.
http://www.levhatorah.org/alumni/ask.asp?

3
When Speaking Lashon Hara is Permitted
Thank you to David Solomon for this review material, which was part of his class for BMT students in Jerusalem in 1993.

Circumstances Under Which Speaking Lashon Hara is Permitted (http://www.torah.org/learning/halashon/review3.html#permission)
The Seven Conditions (http://www.torah.org/learning/halashon/review3.html#7-cond)
Additional Guidelines for Speaking Lashon Hara (http://www.torah.org/learning/halashon/review3.html#add)
This is the third of three review classes on Hilchot Lashon Hara, followed by three on Hilchot Rechilut. Hilchot Lashon Hara Review: Part 3

I. Circumstances Under Which Speaking Lashon Hara is Permitted

In "Chafetz Chaim: A Lesson a Day" p. 132, Rabbi Yitzchak Berkowitz lists the major categories of constructive purposes for which Lashon Hara may be spoken:


To influence the subject to improve by discussing his faults with someone who can help him.
To prevent someone from being harmed by the subject, or help someone who was already harmed by the subject.
To help end a dispute between individuals which could escalate to the community level.
To help others learn from the subject's mistakes.http://www.torah.org/learning/halashon/review3.html

[GerTzedek]

I suppose I've been a student of Dr. Laura and Dennis Prager and Rabbi Minsk regarding lashon hara for so many years I forget that others think differently.

Paul lists Lashon Hara as a sin that will end a person in hell, right next to homosexuality and idolatry and the worst sorts sins.

I Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

At my synagogue, my Rabbi says we are never ever EVER to bring up a person's past sins. For example, let's say someone comes in struggling with a certain something, and we know "Susan" used to have that problem... we CANNOT go to Susan and ask her to counsel this person because that would be to remind Susan of her past sin. Even THIS would be evil tongue, to embarrass her.

[Steve Petersen]

Read anything by the Chofetz Chaim.

[baruch4]

we CANNOT go to Susan and ask her to counsel this person because that would be to remind Susan of her past sin. Even THIS would be evil tongue, to embarrass her.

true.
however, drug addicts become drug free. they open consultancy to help other people. in this case, it's constructive.

[Bananna]

Thank you for posting. This is great to pass on to others.

I've struggled with defining the parameters of when to share is wrong and when it is right.
However now I need more about the beit din.
bananna

[Ivy]

Thanks for the information, Baruch. Very interesting reading.

It was interesting that one isn't allowed to speak leshon hara against oneself even.

[GerTzedek]

Thanks for the information, Baruch. Very interesting reading.

It was interesting that one isn't allowed to speak leshon hara against oneself even.
You mean I don't get to post my long list of sins here in the forum?

DARN!