Anohter question

[tapero]

Hi, Long ago I began listening to messianic music and is the only music I listen to. On an station in Israel is mostly where i listened. God gave me a deep love for jewish people 20 years ago and it's always been with me.

So have some, very little exposure to some things from various radio stations.

I've been looking at things and thinking this way, and of course may well be way off, but is currently how I think.

In the millenial reign of Jesus, is where I think we will see the majority Jews coming to Christ.

In the new heaven and earth or renewed earth, with the New City of Jerusualem on the earth; I believe, just my thoughts that this is a part of heaven in a sense or a heaven, tho is earth, but that this will be mainly populated with Jewish people who believed in Christ and thusly saved. I believe heaven (another heaven) will mainly consist of gentiles, but some Jewish people also, but, mainly gentiles. Of course all above is after all judgement is over.

So, as if it were 2 heavens. There's some problems with this of course; the leaves of the tree of Life for the healing of nations (why would all of us who are saved need healing of nations?)

Does anyone else believe the majority will come to Christ during the 1000 years.

I have no theologies, no training, don't read commentaries etc, just try to grasp the bible best i can so just wonderng on that topic.

I have another, hehe.

In the ot men came to God by faith. some say works and faith, know the scriptures (anyone can back up their various understandings with scriptures on such; many theologies abound), I still say its' by faith.

Jesus died for the sins of the world.

Did God speak to those who passed prior to his death and resurrection and reveal Himself during his crucifiction or after he phsycially died ,and if so, did he only go to believers in ot times or to all including non believers in ot times, and if so, did they have opportunity to believe (the non believers?)

nt hebrews: Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,


Does appear we die once then the judgement, so not sure non believing Jews from OT time or Jesus time prior to his death who died had opportunity if Jesus did go to them to beleive.

One scripure has always confunded me..All Israel will be saved. I know what some Christians believe and believe such is error.

The only way i can figure out that verse is that All who believe, due to Abraham are considered israel. But then we get into the problem which is wrong that gentiles are israel.

Also we know Jesus said to Pharisee's that they'd never be in the kingdom.. well, they could well have come after that, but when Jesus spoke to them, he said such.

sorry i'm going on..questions are pouring out.

Thanks, and is nice tohave place to ask these questins.

God bless again,
tapero

[visionary]

Lots of questions... and lots of answers coming.

Is there something in particular you want us to focus on, or just pick a topic and run with it?

[ContentInHim]

(((((((tapero)))))))))

[tapero]

Hi, yes, I'll focus in more.

I've been told that it is very offensive to messianics that some believe that the majority Jewish people will come to Christ, during the tribulation time or at least start there.

If anyone here, disagrees about the tribulation coming up next in the world, then let's skip that as not important.

So, then main question would be is during the 1000 year reign of Jesus; is that when many believe the majority Jewish people will come to Christ?

hehe, I'll ask more ask I go, but I hear you, short is better, and one q at a time.

blessings and thanks,
tapero

and thank you for the ((((HUGS)))))

[visionary]

Last days interpretations are many and varied. Personally, I believe that the Lord will have it all settled by the millinium. that is why is a jubilee of jubilee of rests. Everyone will know the Lord then. Everyone will attend the Lord's Wedding supper during that time period. Yeshua will have a chance to wipe away all our tears. The books will be opened and judgement [punishment suitable to fit the crime] will be rendered...for those of the second ressurrection.

[GerTzedek]

I second vis. There are as many opinions on this as there are people.

To be very honest with you, I am SO not into these eschatological obsessions. I'll leave these things to the Hal Lindseys of the world. :D I'm a "Pan-millenialist" -- it will all "pan out" in the end. Prophecy and end times are very simple: things look bad, but pull back the curtain, and see that G-d is in control, He has a plan; Messiah will return, Peace and Justice will reign. G-d wins.

I know this is a side issue, but I couldn't help but remember this quote from the Hashivenu website:

...when speculation about the end-times is more natural to us than reciting a berachah -- then we know that the deep structure of our religious life is Hebrew Christian [rather than Messianic Judaism]

[tapero]

Thank you both very much!

I know little about the end times myself, because of the symbolism etc. I don't think we're really meant to grasp it today. Some say it's possible, but I don't know; I only read the bible, so only go by what I do know.

But due to a question in discussion and debate or might have been a post in co area someone said there is no heaven.

So I looked, yep a new heaven...

as well as a new or renewed earth with the City of Jerusalem coming down from heaven.

I think I get why there are two types of heavens, but that's not important. But gives me goose bumps as I know it's all to do with the Lord's brothers and the continuation of the feasts, and many other things given to the Hebrews etc, of which we gentiles have no interest (at least me I mean -don't mean to exclude anyone at all) but those who do I am glad and fairly sure this is what the New Jerusalem is about and for...Jesus's brothers and this will be how they glorify and honor God in part..so it's all very cool.

very interesting, its of the new jerusualem that God says no more tears..not of heaven, tho we know the same will be there

So, I guess mysteries will just remain mysteries, I just wish I had a little better understanding on the New Jerusalem, but that would involve reading someone's interp of symbolism and prophecy..so ah..maybe some day.

So thank you all, good to know that now I just need ask the people who use certain terms, to explain exactly what they mean about those believers.

When i think of more questions, I'll shoot away.

blessings,
tapero

[Bananna]

There is the Heaven we breath
There is the heaven above which is the clouds
The heaven of the stars

There is the spiritual breath heaven
There is the realm of the unseen beings heaven
There is the Age of singing God's praise heaven

There are places not heaven often referred to as heaven by people with weak knowledge of scripture.

Not sure If I've got the ones I know of straight yet.

My understanding is that the whole earth will be purified with fire and brimstone and the New Jeruselm will come down to earth and those who enter the New Jeruselem will enter by their gate. Of the 12 tribes there are gates. According to the date of your birth the Gentile will enter his tribe and his gate.

Bananna

[visionary]

Remember Paul talking about it. 2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. The Book of Enoch talks about it too.... http://reluctant-messenger.com/enoch.htm

[GerTzedek]

I dreamed about the Third temple. I think it was the shabbat just before Tisha b'av. We were in a smaller portion, and some were saying they were somewhat disappointed, and I said, well, its because you haven't bothered to open the door. And beyond the door was this magnificence... Standing next to the huge columns one felt so small and that HaShem was far beyond our ken.

[tapero]

Thank you all.. Neat stuff.

I don't read anything but the 66 book bible so is all I go by, so won't be able to read the one on enoch.

There does appear to be two heavens in the bible..Not including other references to heavens, but I mean two heavens where we will go.

New Jerusalem (the new earth)
and Heaven..

both are heaven, but two different terms and apparently two different places and again, I believe it has to do with the Jews and the gentiles, and I am certain we will be able to go to either, but appears to be 2 locations where those of us in Christ will go.

Just a quick search showed found this:


But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.



Also, we know Jesus is in heaven, we know the Father is in Heaven, we know the Seraphim are at least 4 of them in heaven, as well as angels etc.. We know God is being worshipped in heaven.

So, there is a heaven, and the New Jerusalem will also come out of Heaven.

We know to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. and hence since the New Jerusalem is not yet here, that would mean then they are in heaven with God, those that have passed.


After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,


1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.


2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.


God has always been in heaven, not counting the time Jesus was on the earth, but the Father was in heaven while Christ was on the earth; so in the New Jerusalem, now the dwelling of God is with man.

Yet, he's been with man in heaven as well.

So hence there appears to be two heavens.

Could be one, (the new Jerusualem) but rather doubt it, as I said, I think this is especially for those who are chosen by God, the special, the Hebrews, and this is where they will live out the things so precious to them to worsip and glorify God, which are not precious to Gentiles unless messianic or do similar. This will probably be like the garden of Eden again.

But I don't know anything for sure.hehe..just fairly certain there will be two heavens, referring to where believers go after we pass.

Thanks all,
hope it's okay I add what I think here.
:wave:

[GerTzedek]

Remember that "heaven" is used in two different ways. There is heaven in the sense of the skies, with the sun, moon, and stars; in this sense the heavens are part of creation, and some day there will be a new heaven just as there will be a new earth. There is also heaven as in eternity. G-d is not creation. He is self-existing outside space-time. This "heaven" is not actually a place per se, but simply a word we use when referring, as best we can in our limited coneptualization, to the eternity where God exists.

[tapero]

Remember that "heaven" is used in two different ways. There is heaven in the sense of the skies, with the sun, moon, and stars; in this sense the heavens are part of creation, and some day there will be a new heaven just as there will be a new earth. There is also heaven as in eternity. G-d is not creation. He is self-existing outside space-time. This "heaven" is not actually a place per se, but simply a word we use when referring, as best we can in our limited coneptualization, to the eternity where God exists.

I wonder though...the new earth is very real, a physical place, and as to heaven, we have no clue as to what that's like or going to be like. None of my post below was referring to atmosphere etc, or any other application of the word heaven in the bible, i only referred to heaven as when heaven is used such as explained below, again not at all about other 'heaven' references in the bible which speak of atmosphere etc.

Ah, well since God refers to heaven, I don't believe it's our conception at all, God speaks of it, Jesus is seated at the right hand of God, elders are there, angels, and much more..so not a conceptualization. you may not have meant this; sorry if i misunderstood.

As to God existing out of space and time, we have nothing written in the 66 book bible, about such, and tho we know God was never created, and always was and never will cease to exist.

We have a beginning, when we were born, and we also will exist forever believer and non believer alike, according to the bible.

But of course we are the created, and did indeed have a beginning.

I don't believe the heaven spoken of in revelation is a conceptualization, but a real physical place, or places, the new heaven, and the new jerusalem, heaven may may be a spiritual entitiy but nonetheless a real place. Though I rather doubt it will be a spiritual place as we will have new bodies, so most likely the new heaven will be a real place. We will eat with the Lord at the supper.

As far as we know, Jesus still has a physcial body, we don't really know much but this:


Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if ithad been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.


I often wonder what John meant, and of course can't know, but often wonder if he when using lamb was referring to actually looking like a lamb, or was using words of endearment about our savior..as a lamb..but evidently John could tell that He had been slain, so Jesus' wounds are still evident, or were when john wrote that down.

Stephen said this:


55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."


He saw Jesus..so again, no conception..real.

of the Father:


4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=4&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-30758a)] of God. 6Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.


and are other similar references to such when it comes to the Father:


Out of the brightness of his presence
bolts of lightning blazed forth.
14 The LORD thundered from heaven;
the voice of the Most High resounded.


Recall how the Israelites saw Him, well not Him but how he manifested to them:

"I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you." Then Moses told the LORD what the people had said.

one of my favorites parts of the bible is this:


Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory."

19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." 21 Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen


They have already heard that you, O LORD, are with these people and that you, O LORD, have been seen face to face, that your cloud stays over them, and that you go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. 15


So, we clearly have a real heaven in the bible, you might have been meaning different, but yes we do conceptualize what it will be like as we only know a few things about what it will be like; but we know some of what heaven is like directly from the bible.

blessings,
tapero

[GerTzedek]

Tapero:

I realize this gets into some pretty heavy abstraction. It's really beyond our ability to conceptualize. However consider the following just for a moment.

Space and time are part of creation. G-d is not part of creation. G-d existed when there was no space or time. Where was G-d when there was no where? When was G-d when there was no when? G-d does not need a where or when because G-d is eternal and exists in eternity. Because we are temporal creatures, rather than Creator, that is impossible for us to imagine.

But then, a G-d we could imagine would be no G-d at all. :)

[tapero]

Tapero:

I realize this gets into some pretty heavy abstraction. It's really beyond our ability to conceptualize. However consider the following just for a moment.

Space and time are part of creation. G-d is not part of creation. G-d existed when there was no space or time. Where was G-d when there was no where? When was G-d when there was no when? G-d does not need a where or when because G-d is eternal and exists in eternity. Because we are temporal creatures, rather than Creator, that is impossible for us to imagine.

But then, a G-d we could imagine would be no G-d at all. :)

ah, that's interesting.. it often comes up time and space and I never knew why people speak of it, but seeing what you wrote out i see now.

as to space though...He may well have other creations somewhere, which we wouldn't know, but as to space there is no place he is not. dont fully grasp that, and do wonder how He is everywhere, which He indeed is, as we live and move and are in his being, which i've never been able to figure if this is in regards to all men, or to believers only..hard to tell:


The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'


Since God is Spirit, there is no where He isn't....so to my understanding He is everywhere and is limitless is his being. This of course has nothing to do with new age junk, but we exist in God.. I don't think God made a separate sphere for example, put us in it, and removed himself. Doubt that's possible.

So to me God always was anywhere and everywhere in whatever did exist. Even before the creation of the heavens and earth,stars, angels, men, etc.

However, when it comes to hell, do wonder how he can exist there as well...

Not written so really don't know.

as again, somehow we are all in God...if not then God is a separate entity somehwere, which He is not, at least to my understanding.

Our where is only the universe we know of, we don't know what he's got beyond what he created in the six day creation,we know what he said he created the stars and moons, etc. But we've no clue if other galaxies exist. Maybe gravitiy works in reverse on other of his creations if there are any..we don't know He doens't say..Only speaks to the creation He gave man on earth and the angels.

Any insight you have on that would be great. I'd love to hear..

[GerTzedek]

However, when it comes to hell, do wonder how he can exist there as well...Now that's an interesting question, and I've actually given some thought to it. Not that I have any answers, mind you. Just questions and thoughts. For example, I tend to think of hell not as a place of "fire and torture" but more simply as a place where the suffering is seperation from God.

I think the reason I think that is because of a dream I had back when I was young. I woke up in a hell specifically designed for those "who had done nothing." Meaning they had done no serious wrong, but neither had they done good for others. If I described it to you, you would say, "Oh that doesn't sound so bad!" It was in a school cafeteria, and we could eat what we wanted, as much as we wanted, all day. We were always thirsty, but we could drink all we wanted. And play cards, and watch TV endlessly. No fire. No demons -- just an angel that kind of was in charge of us all. So what was so bad? It was hell. God was not there. I cannot tell you how deeply, deeply sad I felt there. So sad it was like pain throughout my entire being. I was there for 102 years...

CS Lewis speculated that hell was the "opt out" for those who refused heaven. In The Great Divorce, a bunch of people from Hell get on a bus from hell and go visit heaven and just hate it there. Everything in heaven is too REAL. They can't wait to get back to Hell.

There is a show on the radio called the Jesus show, where you can call in and the pastor gives answers in a way that its as if you are speaking to Jesus. He says, "If you hate me so much that for the seventy-something odd years of this life you avoid being with me, why would I force you to be with me for eternity?"

And yet, despite all this, the Psalmist says, "Where can I escape you?...If I run and escape into the netherworld... You are there."

Any insight you have on that would be great. I'd love to hear..

Insight? LOL Blind leading the blind. There is simply a limit to human knowledge. G-d only tells us that which we need to know. There is much we don't need, and even more which is beyond our ken. Who can know the depth of the wisdom and knowledge of God?

Here is my insight: the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know. Pursuit of knowledge and wisdom can be fun, and it can be helpful, and it can be meaningful, but it is not without its price. "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief." (Ecclesiastes 1:18)

[Bananna]

there are several bad places one might end up. Not just one.

Lazareth and the rich man were not in heaven and hell for instance. The resting place for Lazereth and the dry and thirsty land where there was no water... spiriuteally they ended up waiting the second reserection in a place of thier own spiritual making.

there will be those that end up on a darkness where their is nashing of teeth. Heard a former Athiest when he found himself in such a place at death and was revived, accepted Yeshua because he believed Yeshua was the one that rescued him out of that place.

Again Atheism is the darkness of the mind and soul...

bananna

[GerTzedek]

there are several bad places one might end up. Not just one.

Lazareth and the rich man were not in heaven and hell for instance. The resting place for Lazereth and the dry and thirsty land where there was no water... spiriuteally they ended up waiting the second reserection in a place of thier own spiritual making.

there will be those that end up on a darkness where their is nashing of teeth. Heard a former Athiest when he found himself in such a place at death and was revived, accepted Yeshua because he believed Yeshua was the one that rescued him out of that place.

Again Atheism is the darkness of the mind and soul...

bananna
I've done some studying of these "near death" experiences.

Odd they call them "near" death. These people have died.

Anyhow. Most people actully have GOOD experiences. But not all. Those few ones that go to the pit, their stories really, REALLY creep me out.

[tapero]

Now that's an interesting question, and I've actually given some thought to it. Not that I have any answers, mind you. Just questions and thoughts. For example, I tend to think of hell not as a place of "fire and torture" but more simply as a place where the suffering is seperation from God.

I think the reason I think that is because of a dream I had back when I was young. I woke up in a hell specifically designed for those "who had done nothing." Meaning they had done no serious wrong, but neither had they done good for others. If I described it to you, you would say, "Oh that doesn't sound so bad!" It was in a school cafeteria, and we could eat what we wanted, as much as we wanted, all day. We were always thirsty, but we could drink all we wanted. And play cards, and watch TV endlessly. No fire. No demons -- just an angel that kind of was in charge of us all. So what was so bad? It was hell. God was not there. I cannot tell you how deeply, deeply sad I felt there. So sad it was like pain throughout my entire being. I was there for 102 years...

CS Lewis speculated that hell was the "opt out" for those who refused heaven. In The Great Divorce, a bunch of people from Hell get on a bus from hell and go visit heaven and just hate it there. Everything in heaven is too REAL. They can't wait to get back to Hell.

There is a show on the radio called the Jesus show, where you can call in and the pastor gives answers in a way that its as if you are speaking to Jesus. He says, "If you hate me so much that for the seventy-something odd years of this life you avoid being with me, why would I force you to be with me for eternity?"

And yet, despite all this, the Psalmist says, "Where can I escape you?...If I run and escape into the netherworld... You are there."



Insight? LOL Blind leading the blind. There is simply a limit to human knowledge. G-d only tells us that which we need to know. There is much we don't need, and even more which is beyond our ken. Who can know the depth of the wisdom and knowledge of God?

Here is my insight: the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know. Pursuit of knowledge and wisdom can be fun, and it can be helpful, and it can be meaningful, but it is not without its price. "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief." (Ecclesiastes 1:18)

Wow, what a dream. God makes no mistakes and gave you that for some reason, perhaps you know already, and perhaps not, but oh I love dreams that show me things regarding God.. Only had 2 big ones, and used to always have dreams dead stop and I had the choice to make right or wrong..i always chose right.

this was some years back, before i hit the valley i've been in some 4 years ago. When I was singing, praying, reading, and the Holy Spirit brought things to mind at the strangest times, it was awesome..then a phobia hit..and the valley began, and the fear grew and grew..and still to this day am very frightened to go back to where I was, for fear of the phobia which became phobia(s) which paralyzed me farily much for 3 years and I'm just getting better started some 4 months ago.

But anyway, those were the best...as was so cool to always have the dream stop and a decision be made. It was like God way showing me where I was at. Now, never to null such any dream anywhere near anything spiritual and I know why; though it's not due to sin, it's due to my lack of what I did before..and I was on a mountain some 3 years or so, it was awesome..

If only I could trust God with my fears, and not be afraid of the phobias, it's all about trust and being in the same place of the phobias, it doesn't feel safe.

As I've written I only listen to messianic music, and when I do, my spirit is moved very much so, but for some reason, I rarely listen..it's now been before december last I listened thru the net..as well as had tv on....so you see, for some reason I stay away from what's good for me, and before songs, psalms, spiritual songs, hymns, always singing, always praying always reading.. the ministry to non c'sdoes keep me inteh word but with no lights in the house in this one room, can't read in the house, only on pc, so mainly only study while reseraching answers... not good. and the quiet thing, i've always had a problem with that, can be quiet for many many months then listen to music..used to have bipolar bad and i believe the strong emotions that come from messianic music somehow are overwheming, may be habit from when was severely bipolar, but silence was always safe.

I do pray, but not again like before..but things are getting better.

Anyway, back to your dream..wowie, even to know 102 years, and how interesting the thrist that even tho you could drink enough you could never satisfy the thirst. Incredible dream..and you knew it was a place without God.

I will never forget this story you told me and it may well help me as i witness, i mainly minister to non c's, and you reminded of avery important thing, thirsting never being satisified; has so much significance.

ah as to learning, due to ministering mainly to non c's, have to answer questions, have to study and resesrch to do so, so yes it's awesome more we learn more we wonder at things..God didn't give us all the answers, hardly at all, and probably never will, but He indeed gave us what we need...so love to learn as much as can..and since dont read other than 66 book bible am aware missing out on a lot, but it how I prefer, do not like to be influenced by others teachings tho ineveitable it does occur.. i mean theologies etc... don't mean sermons, unless of course they are bent on a theology or doctrine assertion.

Love missionary books but not read anythign for years again no light in here..only in kitchen and bath..and wont read in here anway..

I'm going on...anyway, thank you for sharing that dream...awesome..wow...

[tapero]

I've done some studying of these "near death" experiences.

Odd they call them "near" death. These people have died.

Anyhow. Most people actully have GOOD experiences. But not all. Those few ones that go to the pit, their stories really, REALLY creep me out.

I hope it's okay I comment here. Have given some thought to these occurances. Many indeed non c's included have good experiences. Seeing the light, going towards it, the comfort, peace, etc..and if go near the dark the contrast...cold etc.

Decided this about them. As to Christians who have them when they are good, may be from God.

However, when non c's have them, when they are good, you'll note many put much stock and faith into an afterlife due to these dreams, hence not good, as they go no further than the experience, and believe from such this is where they are going after death, so I assume then such is from satan.

If it leads them to Christ, awesome, but many only focus on the experience and not on God at all.

And when non c's ask me about them, that is what I tell them.. It is a deception.

We know due to the sheer number of those that have them that this truly occurs these experiences, near death etc., and even when i worked in recovery a Christian constantly referred people to near death experiences for the meaning of life...what a mess. he also hated paul, cf had banned the site, but he still always tried referring people there..not good.