The salvation of the gentiles

[stranger]

Most Christians ignore the scripture that states that the new covenant is with just the House of Judah [Jews, visible Israel] and the lost House of Israel [ invisible as a nation, living as gentiles amongst all gentile nations and never accepted Judaism ] , preferring to pretend that christians too are divided into two Houses, two kingdoms, and that Jesus came first for them, not for the true Israel at all, but Pauyl is till there 'hero' as apostle to the gentiles, but they ignore what he says too :-

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Christians are right then to say that Israel was rejected by God, BOTH Houses were separately rejected and scattered worldwide, but at different times and to different communities... Even many Jews barely recognise the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh because these tribes rejected Judaism and refused to become Jews even when they lost their lands ... there are simply no Jews of the tribe of Ephraim, which led the House of Israel into pagan worship , never were and are none today , they are a lost nation , but God has made a new covenant with them through Jesus [more literally Y'shua], as Paul points out above, repeating Jer 31:31-34 , which again CANNOT be construed as addressing modern christians in any way

So WHY is the new covenant of grace only with Israels [Jaocob's] descendants , the 'children of Israel' ... certainly it is NOT through merit , they disobeyed God and need unmerited forgiveness, but why?

Simply because God has said He WILL make them a nation of priests in His kingdom, and thus must begin by uniting them into one kingdom, with one king, the promised MESSIAH, the Christ , the annointed king prophesied to re-unite the two Houses of kings into one ,,, this is why it is against svcripture to teach as many do that Irsael is not forgiven , even Paul says that they are , yet he tried to explain to teh gentiles WHY they should pray for Israel ... it falls on deaf ears in modern christianity anmongst the gentiles, as indeed prophecy points out that it not only will, but MUST do

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Thus one cannot teach the gentile christians about their own salvation THROUGH the ministry of Israel n the kingdom of God , they mostly would rather pretend that they ARE Israel , even that the tribes are symbolic and the Houses of Judah and Israel are symbolic ... but never say what they are supposed to be symbolic of ???

Christianity has been through such anti-Semitism that it can no longer bear to listen to the Jew, Jesus [Y'shua] which their religion is supposed to be about, his statements are simply ignored, in particular he said that he is ONLY sent to the House of Israel :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And there is the problem when talking about the House of Israel, it had already disappeared by Jesus' time as a man ... he had to send his Jewish apostles out amongst the gentiles to find these lost sheep of the House of | Israel after his death ...

this is simply the beginning of God's promise to gather the House of Israel from amngst all nations where He scattered them

Jeremiah 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

This is NOT part of the old covenant, it is God's prophecy about Israel , that He will forgive and gather them and make them one holy nation under ther Messiah [Christ] , their annointed king of BOTH Houses...

Do you see how untenable is the christian line that the scripture is not about the actual House of Israel and the House of Judah whch God rejected for breaking the old covenant but now accepts UNCONDITIONALLY inder a new covenant because He has said they will be a kingdom of priests and His holy nation under the Messiah

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them [U][B]one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

It is Jacob the who is forgiven, whom God re-named Israel, not some symbolic Jacob . again paul states it explicitly :-

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Jesus is a Jew, out of Zion [Sion], but ironically most Jews will not yet accept him as the messiah because they expect a king, a leader NOW in this earth !

So when will Jesus establish his kingdom in other than just the hearts and minds of the few who find the strait narrow way of following him in this life AS SAINTS , perfect in love as the father :-

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

These are then the saints made into images of the sonm of God by the spirit of ALL truth promised them by Jesus [John 16:13]

they are FEW because God does not require MANY as priests and kings, so Jesus actually lists them BY TRIBE of Israel , by NAME of the son of Jacob from whom they are descended and through whom they receive the scriptural promises [Rev 7:3-8] :-

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Again, for confirm,ation, we know that there are over a billion christians, that is not a few, as 144,000 is [it is only about one in a million people that ever lived! ... that FEW are saints in THIS life]

AND we know that the MANY go through destruction in death [Matt 7:13] yet the inumerable masses of ALL nation ARE saved , accoirding to Jesus revelation [Rev 7:9-10] , just AFTERWARD [Rev 7:9] ...

The point then is that NO-ONE can be redeemed until baptized with 'fire' in precious TRIAL of faith , so none but teh JUST can be taken by Jesus by translation to spirit at his return, and he comes only for the FEW at his return because God needs but the FEW He has chosen as a remnant of the childrenm of Israel to be His firstfruit priests under Jesus as high priest of the order of Melchisedec

Thus no gentile can be redeemed until all Israel has been established as a nation of priests to serve all men PERFECTLY ... but many of Israel, like all christians, die and have died as sinners in unbelief in Jesus as the messiah come to re-unite Israel...

Thus almost all men , 999,999 in every million , CANNOT live again until the second resurrection [of the unjust]

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Now the second resurrection, of the unjust, of sinners of this world, is ion the RIGHTEOUS new earth, men live righteously there, as saints, perfecting their love, and Satan is even released a short while for their precious baptism of fire in the new ear4th, the trial of faith given then to ALL men at last [Joel 2:28] ,so that all men KNOW ALL truth , unlike in this life, where most men die NOT knowing all truth

So the gentiles are saved through Jesus Christ, but NOT NOW, not in nthis earth, but in the righteous new earth BEFORE they are judged [else why even bother to resurrect the unjust , if God had pre-judged them as many christians ironically and unjusrtly claim]

and NOT all Israel are saved in this lifetime either, in fact only very FEW ... so many Jews and Christians alike both misunderstand the scriptures of God, and very few acknowledge what God says about teh central importance of the lost House of Israel .... why Jesus was sent only to them for now , why gentiles should pray for Israel, not reject them and persecute them

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Because the salvation of the gentiles and the rest of Israel depends upon the salvation FIRST of a remnant few who go through extreme trial, baptsim of fire, in this life, as Jesus did, for sake of those who come after them, the billions of sinners of this earth {Rev 7:9-10]

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a [B]new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

This explains then why teh new covenant is NOT with the gentiles, there is no need , since the gentiles are all freed from sin by death [wages of sin PAID in death] :-

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The ONLY ones who need grace are the saints who do not see death before Jesus returns and translates them to spirit....

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

This is the REAL new covenant as written in scripture under Paul's writings and iunder Jeremiah in the Ot [Jer 31:31-34] ... so read the CONTRACT carefully, very few do ... !!!

NOTE in particiular that it is ONLY with those whose FATHERS broke the old covenant, only with the childremn of Israel, descendants of Jacob , with the tow Hosues into which israel is still divided even though the House of Israel is merged into all gentile nations living as gentiles, lsot uintil some saint reaches them with the GOSPEL that jesus is indeed the messiah of Israel but will not reign over Israel or anyone in this world [except his few saints]

[mpossoff]

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

This is the REAL new covenant as written in scripture under Paul's writings and iunder Jeremiah in the Ot [Jer 31:31-34] ... so read the CONTRACT carefully, very few do ... !!!

Yes you have to read the WHOLE Jeremiah passage to get the context. Here the writer is using a 'remez' to Jer 31. The 1st century believers knew what the whole chapter was about.

For today this means what the writer wants you to do is to go to Jer 31 and read the whole chapter to get the context.

This is the ONLY discussion in ALL of scripture in it’s completeness about the New Covenant other than the quote we read in Hebrews 8. One would think the New Covenant being SO important people would want to know EXACTLY what it means. And yet many have not. They haven’t even bothered to look it up. Is it possible if they did they would be shocked and even a little bit disappointed or very confused? Maybe not disappointed but confused.

Apparently there is a who lot of people who read verses 31-34 only and don’t read the preceding and proceding verses. It’s very clear. This is speaking about Israel and Judah. Not a replacement for Israel and Judah. It’s very specific because it says , that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and the seed of beast. It’s speaking about DNA. You got the DNA? This is literally Israel. Who’s the New Covenant for? Israel and Judah period no additions. How do you have a hope if it’s without Israel and Judah? As Eph 2 tells you, you had no hope. There was no way you could be part of Israel, you don’t t have the ‘DNA’. Unless it’s by being united with the One who has the ‘DNA’. A Jewish Messiah why He remains Jewish is your only hope. Otherwise you have no hope.You can never be apart of this.

The New Covenant is one must be apart of Israel or you can’t be part of the New Covenant period.

Ezek 37:28 The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.

The best evangelical plan that ever was is God’s. At the end of the age everyone knows that He is God because of what He does with Israel.



Marc

[stranger]

There was no way you could be part of Israel, you don’t t have the ‘DNA’.

There are of course a few exceptions to this, such as there are 'strangers' who join themselves to Israel [legally] to serve Israel, and are treated as memebers of the tribes ...

[GerTzedek]

There are of course a few exceptions to this, such as there are 'strangers' who join themselves to Israel [legally] to serve Israel, and are treated as memebers of the tribes ...
True, but they are not called "the lost House of Israel." You are making a claim that is wrong, unprovable, and offensive. You are also violating the rules of the forum. We take the integrity of Israel very seriously here.

[mpossoff]

There are of course a few exceptions to this, such as there are 'strangers' who join themselves to Israel [legally] to serve Israel, and are treated as memebers of the tribes ...

Right I said at the end of my post:

There was no way you could be part of Israel, you don’t t have the ‘DNA’. Unless it’s by being united with the One who has the ‘DNA’. A Jewish Messiah why He remains Jewish is your only hope. Otherwise you have no hope.You can never be apart of this.

Marc

[muffler dragon]

I'd like to know from what Gentiles need "salvaion"?

[mpossoff]

I'd like to konw from what Gentiles need "salvaion"?

From what do you need salvation?

Marc

[muffler dragon]

From what do you need salvation?

Marc

Yes.

[mpossoff]

Yes.

??? please elaborate.

Marc

[stranger]

True, but they are not called "the lost House of Israel."


Perhaps you would explain why you think that , I do not see how anyone could know that, one way or the other ?

You are making a claim that is wrong, unprovable, and offensive.

I am not being offensive at all, I am just discussing the scripture ... it seems youare offended very easily by presumptions you make about others and by anyone who hasn't yet seen things your way ... that is not much use in discussion ...

Nor can you assert that it is unprovable, and you have not even cited why you think it is proven false , so please cite your evidence and we can discuss it properly without all this aggressive hot air....

You are also violating the rules of the forum.

The rules are not especially close to agreement with scripture, which is a seriously bad thing , but I have not broken them , you are very much mistaken ad rather rude and unloving ... love is the RULE of the Messiah and you are breaking his rule . which is far more serious than you false judgment of me...

We take the integrity of Israel very seriously here.

I have never challenged the integrity of Israel, what on earth are you talking about, please explain yourself ... :o

[GerTzedek]

I am not being offensive at all, I am just discussing the scripture
I am offended, Messianic Jews are offended, non-Messianic Jews are offended. When you steal the name of Israel without permission it is offensive to Israel. It is identity theft.

Nor can you assert that it is unprovable, and you have not even cited why you think it is proven false , so please cite your evidence and we can discuss it properly without all this aggressive hot air....The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, meaning, if you claim to be Israel, it is YOUR obligation to prove your claim, not my obligation to prove you are NOT. However, you've already done your best, and all your arguments are without foundation.

I am being ... what is the word? Frank. I am not mincing words. I am not trying to be rude. But I'm not being exactly gentle either. Why? Because you are being offensive, and I am defending Israel, and I feel no need to be gentle with a doctrine that is a direct threat to Israel.

This whole idea that those other than Israel can be Israel is BAD DOCTRINE... even if you can't see it in scripture, you can SEE IT IN HISTORY. It has directly led to anti-Semtism, and you KNOW what anti-Semitism led to. You need to understand that maybe its a few links removed on the chain, but your teaching is still chained to the Holocaust. Now do you understand why I can't be "gentle?" Now do you get why all forms of supersessionism so ANGER Jews? It is for this exact same reason that most churches have repudiated the doctrine since the Shoah.

My judgment, btw, is not of you as a person. You may very well be a much better person than I am. My judgment is of your teaching.

[stranger]

I am offended, Messianic Jews are offended, non-Messianic Jews are offended. When you steal the name of Israel without permission it is offensive to Israel. It is identity theft.


I have stolen nothing, merely quoted a few scriptures of od and discussed them... you should be far more careful about making false accusations

Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

What is your evidence ? ... none whatsoever !

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, meaning, if you claim to be Israel, it is YOUR obligation to prove your claim, not my obligation to prove you are NOT.I have never said anything about being Israel .

However, you've already done your best, and all your arguments are without foundation.I ahve made no such arguments , you are talking nonsense., and you have presented no evidence for your claims.

I am being ... what is the word? Frank. I am not mincing words. I am not trying to be rude. But I'm not being exactly gentle either. Why? Because you are being offensive, and I am defending Israel, and I feel no need to be gentle with a doctrine that is a direct threat to Israel. The Messiah commanded love from Israel , not your aggression, but you are very mistaken about me and about what I have said, I have not attacked Israel at all, I deeply love Israel and am no threat whatsoever to it, rather would like to join myself to it because it represents the manifestation of love... but you so far do not act lovingly and make false unsubstantiated accusations against me about things I have never said .

This whole idea that those other than Israel can be Israel is BAD DOCTRINE... Why is it written by the prophets of God then ? Rather it is you who does not accept even the prophets of God on this :-

Isaiah 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

even if you can't see it in scripture, you can SEE IT IN HISTORY.In fact it is in scripture and history both, but it has nothing whatever to do with what I have said

It has directly led to anti-Semtism, and you KNOW what anti-Semitism led to. You will find in scripture that God allows the trials of Israel because Israel did not keep the old covenant, but that God will accept all Israel, so there is no point in belly-aching about the trials of Israel because it is on account of God's chastisement for the very unlovingness which you now show me...

You need to understand that maybe its a few links removed on the chain, but your teaching is still chained to the Holocaust.You are talking utter rubbish now, my family has been saving Jews from persecution in Europe throughout the millenium , since the year 1060 BCE ... we are the greatest friends of israel and have a long history of it, and condemned the holocaust... you are not talking about me or what i have written.

Now do you understand why I can't be "gentle?" Now do you get why all forms of supersessionism so ANGER Jews? It is for this exact same reason that most churches have repudiated the doctrine since the Shoah.Whatever trial God allows is NOT a cause to disobey the command of the Messiah to be LOVING, you have no riht before God to be angry with anyone , least of all to go around making false accusations because of your anger ... else you are not of the promise despite being genetically of Israel , Jesus can only take 144,000 [Rev 7:3-8] , a mere handful amongst Israel , as firstfruits and these are known by their PERFECT love, not their anger at God allowing persecution of rebellious stiff-necked Israel...

Paul indeed confirmed that ALL Israel will be saved, but as the messiah points out, not all will be saved FIRST , many will die and be resurrected with the gentiles at the second resurrection BECAUSE of lkack of obedience to the messiah , just as ancient israel failed to obey God in their first covenant.... so do not let the sun go down on your false indignation which has no basis and is not what teh Messiah requires of you ...

Colossians 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Ephesians 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

-- Rather understand that it is God who sends the lost sheep of the House of Israel BACK to the Jews to cause jealousy for the knowledge of the messiah , Y'shua, and the anger of the Jews is INAPPROPRIATE because it is against God's plan for them :-

Romans 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

My judgment, btw, is not of you as a person. You may very well be a much better person than I am. My judgment is of your teachingYour judgment is not required by God of you until you learn to love all men and stop being angry at what God commands us to bear in life FOR OUR OWN SAKE, for perfection of love

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

--- Making false accusations against what I have said is not love, it is bearing false witness....

You say the House of Israel is not lost , so where are the descendants of Ephraim and Manasseh , they are not among the Jews!

[visionary]

I am offended, Messianic Jews are offended, non-Messianic Jews are offended. When you steal the name of Israel without permission it is offensive to Israel. It is identity theft.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, meaning, if you claim to be Israel, it is YOUR obligation to prove your claim, not my obligation to prove you are NOT. However, you've already done your best, and all your arguments are without foundation.

I am being ... what is the word? Frank. I am not mincing words. I am not trying to be rude. But I'm not being exactly gentle either. Why? Because you are being offensive, and I am defending Israel, and I feel no need to be gentle with a doctrine that is a direct threat to Israel.

This whole idea that those other than Israel can be Israel is BAD DOCTRINE... even if you can't see it in scripture, you can SEE IT IN HISTORY. It has directly led to anti-Semtism, and you KNOW what anti-Semitism led to. You need to understand that maybe its a few links removed on the chain, but your teaching is still chained to the Holocaust. Now do you understand why I can't be "gentle?" Now do you get why all forms of supersessionism so ANGER Jews? It is for this exact same reason that most churches have repudiated the doctrine since the Shoah.

My judgment, btw, is not of you as a person. You may very well be a much better person than I am. My judgment is of your teaching.Stranger is no stranger here. He has been conversing with the Jews here for years and gets along just fine. Stranger is not taking it as far as you may think. He stops at scripture.

[muffler dragon]

??? please elaborate.

Marc

From what do Gentiles (of which, I am one) need salvation?

The OP is entitled "The salvation of the gentiles". Hence, my question.

[GerTzedek]

From what do Gentiles (of which, I am one) need salvation?

The OP is entitled "The salvation of the gentiles". Hence, my question.
Marc, it is kind of an obvious question. What do they need to be saved from? Pharoah? Slavery to sin? Damnation? Osama bin Laden? What?

I know what I would answer. But I didn't start this thread.

[mpossoff]

Marc, it is kind of an obvious question. What do they need to be saved from? Pharoah? Slavery to sin? Damnation? Osama bin Laden? What?

I know what I would answer. But I didn't start this thread.

As it says in the New Testament in that context Gentiles were without hope, strangers and aliens from the covenants of promise and the commonwealth of Israel.

I'm referring to the 1st century context and the prevailing halacha.

It appears that this was against Torah. In the 1st century there was man made laws pertaining to how Gentiles could enter the covenant and the commonwealth.

And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved

This exists today in some sects of Judaisms.

Marc

[visionary]

As it says in the New Testament in that context Gentiles were without hope, strangers and aliens from the covenants of promise and the commonwealth of Israel.

I'm referring to the 1st century context and the prevailing halacha.

It appears that this was against Torah. In the 1st century there was man made laws pertaining to how Gentiles could enter the covenant and the commonwealth.

And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved

This exists today in some sects of Judaisms.

MarcVery clear and concise, I like that...:thumbsup:

[ContraMundum]

If someone thinks they are Israel's replacement, based on their interpretation of scripture- why argue?

Doesn't make it true.

[visionary]

No one can replace Israel's place in scripture, place in prophecy and bloodline. But the adopted children of God need some place to lay their head in the Lord's house, so quit hogging the bed.

[ContraMundum]

They didn't get their own bed too?

[visionary]

They didn't get their own bed too?Nope, and big brothers are still wanting to kick the adopted children right back out in the cold.

[ContraMundum]

I don't see it that way, vis. I don't know why you do.

I don't really understand your point of view, perhaps never will. We don't speak the same theological tongue, so I often wonder if we speak past each other. I'm not sure we have enough of the same background to really meet somewhere long enough to actually understand each other. I feel misunderstood when I attempt to post to you, and I'm sure you feel the same way. It's not a bad thing, it's just something I accept.

Best to leave it. Have a good day.

[Talmidah]

Nope, and big brothers are still wanting to kick the adopted children right back out in the cold.

What does this mean, vis?

[visionary]

We are all brothers and sisters of the human race. Our Heavenly Father chose one brother to be the priest of his oracles, and when other brothers and sisters come to enjoy the blessings of the oracles in their lifestyle and in their life, there is a push, saying you can not do that from the blessed brother. We can look from afar, and be thankful. But to come into the House of the Lord and act like children of the Lord, blessed with all the gifts, laws, and entitlements as adopted children should, evokes jealousy. You can hear the children say. .."you can't do that"' " that is not yours, its mine. Here have this little piece." "Father didn't give you the blessings He gave me." Then you hear the retorts "Well, His beloved Son said I could" "He beloved Son invited me Home" "He says He loves Me, and says that I am adopted." "He says we are all one family".

[ChazakEmunah]

No one can replace Israel's place in scripture, place in prophecy and bloodline. But the adopted children of God need some place to lay their head in the Lord's house, so quit hogging the bed.
Hey, the only person I share my bed with is my wife! ;)

[visionary]

Hey, the only person I share my bed with is my wife! ;)ROFL:amen:

[ChazakEmunah]

Nope, and big brothers are still wanting to kick the adopted children right back out in the cold.
Vis, nobody is trying to kick anyone out back into the cold. An adopted son can not claim the same promises and titles of the first-born. It does not mean that the adopted is any less precious, it just means that they have their own special place. In addition to that, the unique thing about Judaism is that an adopted son can become firstborn through conversion, and enjoy all the benefits thereof.

[visionary]

Vis, nobody is trying to kick anyone out back into the cold. An adopted son can not claim the same promises and titles of the first-born. It does not mean that the adopted is any less precious, it just means that they have their own special place. In addition to that, the unique thing about Judaism is that an adopted son can become firstborn, and enjoy all the benefits thereof.Thank you .... Others are trying to second class the gentile believers, instead of accepting them brothers and sisters equal in the faith.

[Talmidah]

Thank you .... Others are trying to second class the gentile believers, instead of accepting them brothers and sisters equal in the faith.Do you mean that people here in this forum are saying that gentiles are second class? :confused:

[mpossoff]

We are all brothers and sisters of the human race. Our Heavenly Father chose one brother to be the priest of his oracles, and when other brothers and sisters come to enjoy the blessings of the oracles in their lifestyle and in their life, there is a push, saying you can not do that from the blessed brother. We can look from afar, and be thankful. But to come into the House of the Lord and act like children of the Lord, blessed with all the gifts, laws, and entitlements as adopted children should, evokes jealousy. You can hear the children say. .."you can't do that"' " that is not yours, its mine. Here have this little piece." "Father didn't give you the blessings He gave me." Then you hear the retorts "Well, His beloved Son said I could" "He beloved Son invited me Home" "He says He loves Me, and says that I am adopted." "He says we are all one family".

Didn't Paul make a referance to evoking jealousy to the unbeliving Jews? Hmmm.

I can see glimpses of that here in this forum.

It's called ethno-centric Jewish exclusiveness. And yes I am Jewish by birth.

This to me is the reasons why gentiles want to convert. To become part of the Jewish exclusiveness. Which is a false Gospel as Paul makes referances too.

Marc

[visionary]

Didn't Paul make a referance to evoking jealousy to the unbeliving Jews? Hmmm.

I can see glimpses of that here in this forum.

It's called ethno-centric Jewish exclusiveness. And yes I am Jewish by birth.

This to me is the reasons why gentiles want to convert. To become part of the Jewish exclusiveness. Which is a false Gospel as Paul makes referances too.

MarcExactly... For example the "sabbath" for for the Jews only.

[stranger]

From what do Gentiles (of which, I am one) need salvation?

The OP is entitled "The salvation of the gentiles". Hence, my question.

'Salvation' is simply the translation to spirit of a living soul at God's discretion ... Jesus showed the only way back to God is through perfection of love , through being first 'baptised' of teh spirit , simply being confronted with and led into all truth [John 16:13] during life , and then trial of faith [baptism of 'fire'] which is simply proving that one's love is above this world's false sense of values, that one has overcome attachment to the body and is ready for the spirit and its very different 'life' [beyond time and space, the so-called 'third heaven', 'paradise', the 'garden of Eden', immortality of the spirit because it is not like the body]

The term 'salvation', or saving , simply refers to the fact that both this world and heavens and the next world and heavens come to an end eventually, the end of time, thus all creation requires 'saving;' from this end, God cannot end the creation without redeemming it before ending time and space because He is love, that is what He represents to us [as shown by Jesus as a wholly loving being] ...thus all men need to be convinced by God to let go of wordly desires eventually , and He has set out the planned way of doing this, a progressive movement toward perfect love initiated by the Messiah, who came to get just 144,000 firstfruits ready for his return... these then act as priests and kings in the new earth in the redemption of the rest of israel and then the whole nation ,thus re-united, acts as admin in the redemption of the billions of gentiles... a straitforward 'power' plan , using those already perfected to help those next to be convinced about love being the way to live ...

[stranger]

As it says in the New Testament in that context Gentiles were without hope, strangers and aliens from the covenants of promise and the commonwealth of Israel.

I'm referring to the 1st century context and the prevailing halacha.

It appears that this was against Torah. In the 1st century there was man made laws pertaining to how Gentiles could enter the covenant and the commonwealth.

And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved

This exists today in some sects of Judaisms.

Marc

Perhaps the significance of this scripture has eluded many Jews :-

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The whole nation under one king, the messiah, are ALL priests and kings, but then WHO do they rule amd minister to if not the resurrected gentile masses ?

Israel is FIRST only because God obviously requires to set up the perfected priesthood and kings at teh beginning....

It makes a nonsense of this 'war' between Jews and gentiles , God has said how it will be , men cannot change that with any ammount of hermeneutics or writing books or preaching other gospels than that of the messiah of Israel ... God has said and has had it written, what's leftto talk about but the mistakes of tradition of men ? [on both falsely created 'sides' of this age-long wasted argument ,which can hardly impress God ]

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ [Messiah]

The Messiah thus had criticisms of Jews and Christians alike, and it is hardly improved down the millenia ... men still disagree ,based on traditions, and do not reprove themselves in belief to what go has had written All [/U]scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of [B]any private interpretation.

There is but one way it WILL be... where does that leave the hundreds of thousands of private interpretations that most men follow.... think on it , it is those who do NOT reprove their beliefs to scripture who are left behing at the Messiah's return... one should have more care to attend to EVERY word of scripture rather than asserting one's own beliefs without humility.... in the end God will humble all men through the Messiah:-

Luke 20:18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Look to know ALL the scripture then, every word , not just tradition of men about parts of it :-

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

[stranger]

We are all brothers and sisters of the human race. Our Heavenly Father chose one brother to be the priest of his oracles, and when other brothers and sisters come to enjoy the blessings of the oracles in their lifestyle and in their life, there is a push, saying you can not do that from the blessed brother. We can look from afar, and be thankful. But to come into the House of the Lord and act like children of the Lord, blessed with all the gifts, laws, and entitlements as adopted children should, evokes jealousy. You can hear the children say. .."you can't do that"' " that is not yours, its mine. Here have this little piece." "Father didn't give you the blessings He gave me." Then you hear the retorts "Well, His beloved Son said I could" "He beloved Son invited me Home" "He says He loves Me, and says that I am adopted." "He says we are all one family".

The blessing of God is simply His truth , His sword , with which He can chnage the will of men to the will to love [perfectly, without sin]

Whilst all Israel will be saved , and must be saved before the gentiles because the priesthood of kings is required at the beginning, yet the Messiah says he will take but 144,000 at his return, perhaps but a couple of thousand alive at that time then ... it means a LOT of disgruntled christians and Jews alike, gnashing their teeth simplt because they did not reprove their beliefs to what God has said.... did not believe the Messiah, teh Christ !

This then is the task of the few of Israel in THIS world , to live as saints in a world that hates saints and Israel [for no good reason whatever except that God sees it as the best way toi perfect love , to TRY it severely , to baptise with 'fire' those whom he blesses with His spirit of truth, those he has chosen to be just the first , among many afterward...

The Messiah lists who they are in Rev 7:3-8 , all sealed [to come to know all truth in this life -John 16:13] first before their trial as sainst..

The question is then , what of the rest of Israel, not least the MANY who died already without knowledge of the Messiah , without baptism of the spirit, without perfection of love in trial of given faith ?

These amny of Israel are no better off in this life than the many gentiles, they lived and died sinners without all truth being given them by God, they still ahve to follow the messiah before thay can be translated to spirit to join the priesthood of the order of Melchizedek ['Melchisedec' in NT] ...

Thus the priesthood is not completed in thius world , but cannot be so until after the resurrectio of sinners in the new earth, the second resurrection... thus Israel are chosen to be a nation of priests, they are not all chosen to be first, nor could be ,since they are mostly sinners at death, even today...

Thus the boasting of some Jews in very inappropriate, the Messiah will humble all men in due course , just as the claims of christian sinners are in vain simply because they too are still sinners at death, not saints perfected in love, as they would have to be to be atken by the Messiah , as they hope and believe they will

The mistakes then abound in both Judaism and Christianity alike and it makes no sense since God has had it all written, why then do men listen to sinners who claim authoriity above the scripture to tell people what to believe and how to live? Why believe sinners when we have the witness of all the saints and prophets of God in scripture to REPROVE belief to ONE word of God? ... it takes only the humility to accept that one cannbe wrong, that tradition can be wrong, and to study every word and compare it to one's beliefs ...

The messiah has said it , why not listen to him? :-

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by [B]every word of God.

We know that divided religion of both christianity and Judaism cannot be true because it is divided, so why not reprove it to the WHOLE scripturee... if the scripture were not ONE truth then it would not be from God, and it asserts that it is NOT of these countless private interpretations... why not then take God at His word and reprove to the scripture instead of believing sinners because one always did before ?

[stranger]

Vis, nobody is trying to kick anyone out back into the cold. An adopted son can not claim the same promises and titles of the first-born. It does not mean that the adopted is any less precious, it just means that they have their own special place. In addition to that, the unique thing about Judaism is that an adopted son can become firstborn through conversion, and enjoy all the benefits thereof.

Yes indeed , it is as well to remember that the firstfruits are ONLY the FIRST fruits of the spirit , that not only will all Israel be saved afterward , not just the House of Judah [Jews] , but the House of Israel [led by Ephraim] too , but that the masses of all nations are saved in the new earth kingdom ruled by Israel under the Messiah as King and High Priest over all these kings and priests ... but the kingdom ruled by Israel is FOR the redemption of the gentiles BY the ministry of Israel .. the many of all nations are redeemed too, just afterward of Israel... so why make a big thing about being first ?

It is not as though israel MERITED being first, salvatio first is by grace, UNMERITED forgiveness of SIN ... Israel has no cause to boast ,nothing to be proud of in her sin which god overlooks because He has said they will eb His priests and kings and so will be first because He needs them at teh beginning.... BUT God will not accept sinners as priests as men do in this earth ... all Israel must te also be humbled first and receive all truth from God in spirit baptism to change the attitude to LOVE, the actual LAW of God shown by and commanded by the Messiah...

The most surprising thing then is that every Jew and christian now has his own private belief, and God can smash through even the strongest tradition and bring all to His truth simply by revealing it... the implication is that we ALREADY know that love is THE way , in our hearts, we just can't manage to DO it all the time to all men,,,, God clearly has to change this , and does so progressively, not all at the same time, only a FEW find the narrow strait way of perfected love in this life, and Israel are many. not a few....

[stranger]

Thank you .... Others are trying to second class the gentile believers, instead of accepting them brothers and sisters equal in the faith.

The DIVISION that the Messiah refers to :-

Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

This is the division off of the 144,000 who are given grace under the new covenant with Israel, and so baptised of the spirit to know all truth... these are the FEW saints of Israel then who find the narrow strait way of perfecting love in THIS life ... it is then particularly foolish in religion to draw the division line elsewhere than the Messiah does !

The confirmation is Rev 7:3-8 where the 144,000 taken at teh Messiah's return are listed, they are just the first few, but they are the first ... how can the many of Israel and the many gentile chrsitains all change their beliefs to accept what teh Messiah, the Christ , has said about where the division is... ???

It seems that men of religion cannot listen to teh scriptue but have to learn this one the hard way of being left behind DESPITE their belief in traditions of men instead of the whole scripture as ONE truth ,united OT and NT ...the witness of saints and prophets as ONE truth of God , as it must be if it is o God!

Put simply then, if one is not a saint by the time one dies, then one is NOT a firstfruit ... it makes no difference if one is Jew, Christisn , or even of the lost sheep of the House of Israel, that is what the Messiah states explicitly, no sinners !:-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[stranger]

This to me is the reasons why gentiles want to convert. To become part of the Jewish exclusiveness.

There are legitimate legal ways to become part of Israel, even for gentiles, let alone 'strangers' .... if they wanted to be part of Israel they clearly could... but they do not want to accept divided Judaism as a religion, nor even to give up divided christianity as their religion.... it is not easy then since Jews think that they sit pretty on their divided religion despite the warnings from god about this, and christians alike do the same, and BOTH miss the truth of following ALL teh scripture, not just OT or NT but both as one truth...as they oibviously must be if they are from God...

Thus it is easier to invent a gentile 'spiritual' Israel by bending a few scriptures than to afce te truth of God ... but Israel as a whole is not facing God yet either , still requiring a king, a messiah, a christ ,in this world to unite it ,and so rejecting Y'shua for non-scriptural presumption ...

[stranger]

Exactly... For example the "sabbath" for the Jews only.

The irony is that the Jews too messed up the count to seven for many Jews when adopting 'local time' and inventing a non-scripura halkhic 'dateline' with sabbath on one side and not on the other ... pretty laughable idea, but it is Jewish 'law' in thiis time ... just as the christians have their own non=sensical local time and use that for their holy days .... how does anyone think it has anything to do with what pleases God ????

Isaiah 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

Who then takes seriously the pleasing of God if both Jewish and Christian dogma alike reject His timing for His holy sabbaths?

[ContraMundum]

What is this? National "insult the Jews Day" or something?

Not one Jew on this forum has ever classified Gentiles as "second class" citizens- yet we are insulted by people who make such disgraceful insinuations about this.

Scratch the surface of these "Pro-Isreal/Jews" types and what do you really see?

[stranger]

What is this? National "insult the Jews Day" or something?

Not one Jew on this forum has ever classified Gentiles as "second class" citizens- yet we are insulted by people who make such disgraceful insinuations about this.

Scratch the surface of these "Pro-Isreal/Jews" types and what do you really see?

It is not 'second class' to be saved by ministry of Israel after death, it is simply God's choice on a rather sensible way of going about redeeming billions, to perfcet the priesthood and kings first...

The only shame to Jews comes from God's requiring to forgive them wihout their MERITING it, by grace ... but then it was God who made men subject to sin in the first so that He could inevitably redeem them from it ... if you think God insults you by doiing things His way, then prepare to be shown otherwise , but it will take a while...

So please stop inventing non-scriptural strawmen to get offended at which no-one but you said anything about ...

[ContraMundum]

Exactly... For example the "sabbath" for for the Jews only.


Jews have ALWAYS believed that the Sabbath was for us alone.

It is based on this text:
Exo 31:16 "Therefore the sons of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for an everlasting covenant.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever. For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested, and was refreshed."


I challenge anyone to find one Chumash, commentary, or Talmudic reference that says the Sabbath was not a sign given uniquely to the Jews and the Jews alone.

It is clearly, totally and utterly obvious and well known that the idea that Shabbos is for the Jews alone is in fact the proper, ancient and perpetual doctrine and understanding of the Jewish people(we don't need to go into the issue of how Gentiles can participate in Shabbos right now- I accept the mainstream position on that.)

Now, on this very thread, you people rail against us and declare us "jealous" of you and incapable of taking Shabbos seriously as well as trying to make Gentiles second class citizens for simply keeping the beliefs we've always had and will always have.

What on earth is wrong with maintaining the doctrine given to us?

We are faithful to what we have recieved from our forefathers which we have kept for centuries, and now you mock us for it?????

[ContraMundum]

It is not 'second class' to be saved by ministry of Israel after death, it is simply God's choice on a rather sensible way of going about redeeming billions, to perfcet the priesthood and kings first...

The only shame to Jews comes from God's requiring to forgive them wihout their MERITING it, by grace ... but then it was God who made men subject to sin in the first so that He could inevitably redeem them from it ... if you think God insults you by doiing things His way, then prepare to be shown otherwise , but it will take a while...

So please stop inventing non-scriptural strawmen to get offended at which no-one but you said anything about ...

I sure can't figure you out.

I don't actually read your posts, stranger. Sorry, but I don't understand that Pentecostal speak. I don't recognise your position as having any valid authority. I merely tell you what has been, is, and will continue to be well after you and I have left this earth.

(By the way, the Jews have never believed that their observance merited forgiveness. Even St Paul knew that when he taught that Abraham was justified by faith, which he used to prove the consistancy and perpetual nature of justification by faith).

[stranger]

Jews have ALWAYS believed that the Sabbath was for us alone.

The sabbath was created long before the tribe of Judah and the House of Judah existed , and was made a blessing to all those who kept it, by God, long before His [old] covenant with Israel

Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

The sabbath was indeed GIVEN to Israel as the sign between them and God for all time throughout all generations... but that does not stop other people keeping it in reverence to the final rest of creation through the God of Israel who also will be the God of all men once Israel are established as the royal priesthood of kings in God's kingdom come upon the earth .

Indeed also Israel are the only ones commanded to keep the sabbaths holy because they alone are chosen to be the people who yield a remnant few saints of God in this earth to begin the process of perfection of love in all Israel, as Y'shua showed is the only way to translation to the spirit and the priesthood of Melchizedek , the only way to ruling in the kingdom of God.

Thus only israel suffer death for not keeping the sabbath holy under their old covenant ... but the old covenant was not kept by many at all, so God has a new covenat with Israel where He simply puts His law in hearts and minds of a few of Israel and so changes their beliefs, sothat the will to be perfect, and equips them with all truth [John 16:13] to be able to resist ALL the wiles of this world that lead all other men astray, one way or another, even those committed to religion...

It is most unlikely that many other men than those saints of Israel will keep sabbath holy [and I knwo of only two in the world beside the Jews in Jerusalem] since time- and day-keeping were changed by the Jewish hierarchy [without permission from God]

It takes some wiles to deceive a Jew about sabbath, yet Satan has managed it, as daniel prophesied would happen

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Many Jews are very unhappy about these changes, some even keep two sabbaths in each week , the old and the new, but that is against scripture too, since the other six days are for work, not for superstitious false sabbath-keeping ... but the main enemy of the truth is simply halkhic local time-keeping that destroyed the count to seven for may Jews worldwide ... in fact for all Jews except those in and near Jerusalem .

[stranger]

(By the way, the Jews have never believed that their observance merited forgiveness. Even St Paul knew that when he taught that Abraham was justified by faith, which he used to prove the consistancy and perpetual nature of justification by faith).

Strangely or unstrangely, observance of the old covenant would have been enough to justify men, it simply proved impossible to keep the Law as written down , simply because Israel ended up just going through the motions and God go fed up with their unlovingness , not keeping the spirit of love of the law :-

Isaiah 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Thus the new covenant which places no burden of written law on Israel, but writes the Law of Love of God in hearts and minds, binds it to frontlets of knowing and the right hand of action...

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

That is the end of diverse rabbinical teaching then, the truth of God is given to all of Israel whom God as chosen as His remnant from this world, but that is just 144,000 saints, a tiny number compared to innumerable Israel... but they indeed will keep the true sabbath, not the one devised by christians, not the one altered to by the Rabbis in adopting halakhic local time.

[stranger]

I don't actually read your posts, stranger. Sorry, but I don't understand that Pentecostal speak. I don't recognise your position as having any valid authority

My loss that you cannot be bothered to talk with me, but why then do you come here ?

I don't claim any authority in myself , I simply point at the scriptures and see if you see what they say rather clearly.... a discussion is in oreder then if we disagree, but one based wholly in scripture if we both accept it...

[stranger]

(By the way, the Jews have never believed that their observance merited forgiveness. Even St Paul knew that when he taught that Abraham was justified by faith, which he used to prove the consistancy and perpetual nature of justification by faith).The old covenant was just that, if anyone had kept it then God would ahve honoured His side of the egreement... the problem was the yield of it, so few kept it ...

So the new covenant makes it unanswerable , God simply takes the House of Judah and the House of Israel as His people , starting with a renmnant 144,000 at the return of the Messiah ...

Thus it is a mistake to think that keeping the old covenant would not merit translation to spirit, God has taken 'friends of God' from every seventh generation from Adam, so that ,like Enoch, many men have never seen death... the new covenant [Jer 31:31-34] though is unconditional upon Israel, god simpoly takes whom He will because of Himself, not because of any merit in Israel , it is grace for His sake, not Israel's ... ut note thatit an agreement ONLY with those whose fathers disobeyed and brole the old covenant [Heb 8:8-12] , thus grace is not with anyone but Israel, it does not say anything about gentile sinners or a billion gentile christians in the NEW covenant !

Thus gentiles and most of Israel who all die, or have died ,sinners are all in teh same boat of losing their siisn through death, but still needing to perfect their love in resurrection in the new earth... so their salvation will eb by works in the new earth, it is only the remnant of Israel whom God requires readied asd a perfect priesthood of firtfruits that are forgiven by grace , and now...

[visionary]

One other thought.... As priests to the Nations... when and where will they teach... Acts 15:21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." As Yeshua said.. Sabbath was made for the Jews only...no that wasn't it.. The sabbath was made for MAN... I believe that means all mankind.

[ContraMundum]

My loss that you cannot be bothered to talk with me, but why then do you come here ?

To talk to people I can understand and who understand me.

I don't claim any authority in myself , I simply point at the scriptures and see if you see what they say rather clearly.... a discussion is in oreder then if we disagree, but one based wholly in scripture if we both accept it...

eh....everyone thinks that they are right in the end anyway.

[ContraMundum]

a) The Sabbath is part of the created order. No problem here.

b) The Sabbath is not the same as Sabbath keeping. Sabbath keeping is a *sign* of the Sabbath, given to Isreal within the Covenant. I can find no other text that supports the notion that Sabbath keeping is given to the Gentiles as a binding observance in our time.

Still, if you guys want to keep the Sabbath- more power to ya! It's up to you. Doesn't bother me.

[mpossoff]

One other thought.... As priests to the Nations... when and where will they teach... As Yeshua said.. Sabbath was made for the Jews only...no that wasn't it.. The sabbath was made for MAN... I believe that means all mankind.

vis this can go both ways.

One way is past tense.

The other way is future tense.

For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath

Marc

[ContraMundum]

Marc,

Good point. The Greek is past tense (at least on those couple of words). The parsing of the phrase is a little more complex, but you are absolutely right in saying as you have.

Our theology must conform to the rules of grammar. In other words, we need to stick to what it actually says.

[stranger]

To talk to people I can understand and who understand me.


You can hardly expect to understand what I have pointed at in scripture if you refuse to read what is written there which I have pointed at... else you might understand me , and query those who just go along with tradition of men who are sinners instead of following the saints and prophets and messiah of God ... just a point about burying your head in the sand and living in an enclave of soothsayers toi tradition of men...

eh....everyone thinks that they are right in the end anyway.

Well I don't think that I am right, rather I know in my heart that God is right.... I look at both Judaism and christianity and see DIVISION right down to the individual level of belief.... that is not what the Messiah brought, so it is necessarily of Satan , the Messiah promised ALL truth to those who truly follow him [John 16:13] and most men , both most Jews and most christians, die WITHOUT all truth... it is eough to malke one know that one does not know until God does the teaching Himself and one needs no sinner as a teacher :-

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.[the Messiah]

One can then identify where the understanding of scripture went wrong, whole passages are IGNORED by all sects and creeds of Jews and christians alike ... the truth of God has to be consistent with ALL the scripture , not just bits of it here and there :-

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

That is all it takes then, reprove belief to ALL the scripture and there is no need for interpretaions, God is clear in His word, but not if one does not use the whole together as one truth ...

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Men KNOW that religion is divided and thsu that at least moist teaching in religion MUST be wrong, yet men do not REPROVE the teachings of sinners to the scripture .... it makes no sense to believe sinners when scripture says otherwise in places they do not care to look at....

[stranger]

One other thought.... As priests to the Nations... when and where will they teach... As Yeshua said.. Sabbath was made for the Jews only...no that wasn't it.. The sabbath was made for MAN... I believe that means all mankind.

Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

God indeed gave the weekly sabbath to Israel and thus to the the House of Judah and the House of Israel into which Israel became divided, as a sign that he is their God and they are His people, a sign which does not end, but that does not stoip others keeping the sabbath for the blessing of His truth it gives to celebvrate the eventual rest in God which is for Jews and gentiles alike ... all may partake of sabbaths if they know when they are and WHY they are memeorials and WHAT they are memorials to.... the difference for Israel is that they are commanded to keep sabbaths and for the most part modern Jews do not keep the original days any more because times and dates have been changed by authority of men [sinners, not saints]

The irony is then that a few, very few, gentiles keep true sabbths as God defined them in scripture, and most Jews follow traditions of men that have changed the times and days... my vote is for following what God says, not what sinners teach ,even thoise who claim authority to change days and times ... after all it was a sinner in great authority who cuased most christians to worship on the day of the Roman sun god, not sabbth ... the Jews fared no better when their authorities changed the day ...

[stranger]

I can find no other text that supports the notion that Sabbath keeping is given to the Gentiles as a binding observance in our time.

The gentiles were never bound to sabbath as Israel bound itself to keeping it .... that does not stop gentiles receiving the blessing of celebrating the eventual rest in God of all men [through Israel] , knowing the truth about the role of Israel as our eventual priests and kings in the kingdom of God in the redemption of the rest of Israel [for only a remnant are saints in this life] and the mass of the gentiles in the new earth ...

The christians are mistaken to assert that Israel is not forgiven their being rejected, since the new covenant says they are NOW accepted by God without merit ... but the Jews are mistaken to think that all israel will eb saved in this earth , Israel is far larger than the 144,000 only whom the Messiah takes as firstfruits [Rev 7:3-8] , only the FEW find the strait narrow way of perfecting love in THIS earth...

Thus both Jew and chrsitain alike, but the hundreds of million, will be gnashing their teeth at the Messiah's return because they never bothered to read the will of God expressed in scripture , but relied upon one of the hundreds of thousands of tales told by sinners given 'authority' by other sinners to teach in place of God...

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be [B]all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

Simply gauge how many men who claim authority to teach have died without knowing ALL truth of God.... the lesson then, mostly unheeded, is to opt to be taught by God, not sinners, or reap the inevitable consequences....

[ContraMundum]

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

Simply gauge how many men who claim authority to teach have died without knowing ALL truth of God.... the lesson then, mostly unheeded, is to opt to be taught by God, not sinners, or reap the inevitable consequences....

The "you" in that text is plural. It is primarily a promise to the Apostles, not to individuals 20 centuries later, as the context clearly demonstrates. It is a warranty of their divine infallible inspiration, and that gift is not for any indiividual in this day (and if you disagree, tell me who it is so he can settle our disagreements!)

Anyway- enjoy your debate.

[visionary]

The "you" in that text is plural. It is primarily a promise to the Apostles, not to individuals 20 centuries later, as the context clearly demonstrates. It is a warranty of their divine infallible inspiration, and that gift is not for any indiividual in this day (and if you disagree, tell me who it is so he can settle our disagreements!)

Anyway- enjoy your debate.No wonder scripture does not inspire you personally. You read scripture for them.

[muffler dragon]

No wonder scripture does not inspire you personally. You read scripture for them.

Vis:

Not that I have to defend, CM; but this is not what he meant at all in what he stated. It's an unfair inference for you to make such a statement. It's a Christian belief that no one becomes a Christian simply because of "head-knowledge".

[stranger]

ContraMundum...

The "you" in that text [John 16:13] is plural. It is primarily a promise to the Apostles, not to individuals 20 centuries later, as the context clearly demonstrates. It is a warranty of their divine infallible inspiration, and that gift is not for any indiividual in this day (and if you disagree, tell me who it is so he can settle our disagreements!)

Anyway- enjoy your debate.

Yes it is plural and he is talking to the apostles, but clearly all the 144,000 saints need baptism of the spirit too , else they cannot see through all satan's wiles and will not be perfected in love, but continue to sin like everyone else...

[We know the number is literal too, because Enoch pointed out taht there will be but tens of thousands of saints :-

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,]

Again it rather puts the religion of sinners led by sinner priesthoods, not saints, in perspective ...

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

As to debate, I am uninterested i contention... the scripture asserts that it is not of private interpretation, thus we CAN understand it uniquely if we read and take in it all, instaed of being content with beliefs based on only scaps , that conflict with much of what God has had written by saints and prophets....

[visionary]

Vis:

Not that I have to defend, CM; but this is not what he meant at all in what he stated. It's an unfair inference for you to make such a statement. It's a Christian belief that no one becomes a Christian simply because of "head-knowledge".I went by what he said.. It is primarily a promise to the Apostles, not to individuals 20 centuries later, as the context clearly demonstrates. It is a warranty of their divine infallible inspiration, and that gift is not for any indiividual in this day (and if you disagree, tell me who it is so he can settle our disagreements!)Those are pretty strong statement that place it all in historical context and not to apply this personally today.

[stranger]

It's a Christian belief that no one becomes a Christian simply because of "head-knowledge".

That is indeed an unusual belief since the new covenant itself states that faith is given directly to the head by God by means of His truth PUT there :-

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind,

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[ContraMundum]

No wonder scripture does not inspire you personally. You read scripture for them.

That's not what I said, vis. MD is correct in his defence of what I said.

Read *carefully*.

Scripture inspires everyone individually- but no one today is not infallibly inspired, as the were the Apostles. (Even the Popes don't claim that kind of infallibility- I hardly think pentecostals can claim more while denying him that.)

Furthermore, no *one* individual is given an interpretation of scripture, but rather, the scriptures are to be interpreted corporately.

Please read more carefully. You seem to be looking for ways to affirm your internal opinion which considers me less spiritual than yourself. For some reason, you have failed to see how insulting it is.

[visionary]

That's not what I said, vis. MD is correct in his defence of what I said.

Read *carefully*.

Scripture inspires everyone individually- but no one today is not infallibly inspired, as the were the Apostles. (Even the Popes don't claim that kind of infallibility- I hardly think pentecostals can claim more while denying him that.)

Furthermore, no *one* individual is given an interpretation of scripture, but rather, the scriptures are to be interpreted corporately.

Please read more carefully. You seem to be looking for ways to affirm your internal opinion which considers me less spiritual than yourself. For some reason, you have failed to see how insulting it is.Must be the traditional thinking that conflicts with the truth as the light of the Lord shines upon it.

[ContraMundum]

Must be the traditional thinking that conflicts with the truth as the light of the Lord shines upon it.

...which is impossible, as Christ has promised to always guide the Church. Only unenlightend tradition falls.

[visionary]

Good thing God's church is not dependant upon man's definition and perameters.

[ContraMundum]

Good thing God's church is not dependant upon man's definition and perameters.

That's precisely why I'm Anglican.

[GerTzedek]

One other thought.... As priests to the Nations... when and where will they teach... As Yeshua said.. Sabbath was made for the Jews only...no that wasn't it.. The sabbath was made for MAN... I believe that means all mankind.
When Yeshua said, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath," those were not his own words. He was QUOTING. Do you know what he was quoting? Oral Torah. Soon to be written down in the Talmud. Would you STILL like to maintain that these words refer to ALL mankind? Or to the Jews, as context would indicate?

[GerTzedek]

No wonder scripture does not inspire you personally. You read scripture for them.
vis: I'm not really sure what is going on here, but it seems like every chance you get, you look for opportunities to insult CM's relationship with HaShem. I don't personally see any justification for it, and even if I did, it would still violate the rules to make these kinds of personal attacks. What even WORSE than that, is it's making things really ugly here for all of us.

[stranger]

That's precisely why I'm Anglican.
Do the sums, there can only be some two thousand or so on average on this earth alive at any one time who are saints ... and they ain't in a modern-style 'church' but scattered here and there over the earth [where in fact Jesus says he takes them from, here and there, not all in one place ...

so any massive church is obviously logically not the church of God... by the scripture

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

So teh Messiah himself says that just 144,000 are redeemed in THIS earth as his 'church of God' and since the church never ceases, that is about a couple of thousand only alive at any one time ... one in a million people then are redeemed from this earth, not a billion and more 'christians'

The division of religio also makes the point clear, God's truth is one truth so almost all men must be wrong simply because men disagree even withing so-called 'churches, denominations , sects, groups ...

then one can also check with scripture, the christ of scripture as a single whole truth of God is the Messiah come to re-unite Israel, but tha is not the 'christ' of most churches , the new covenant of scripture is with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, but most churches try to exclude the Jews and even all Israel from their tradition of men called a 'creed.' ...

One can then see that the Messiah was right, religion has to fall away, but that is no excuse if one reads the scripture, why then believe what sinners teach, even if they gather a million to believe their private interpretations of scripture.... only some two thousand on this earth know all truth from God [John 16:13] and they are the only ones whoCAN follow Jesus now, in this earth, because they are the only ones who know enouh to defeat Satan's wiles and cease to sin, become saints , perfect their love in OBEDIENCE to Jesus as their lord... sinners by definition do not obey Jesus as lord because they sin, are not loving, so do not obey his command to love, so Jesus is not the lord of any sinner by definition... it matters not what people say, but what they do...

and the irony of religion is that Jesus has said that the many WILL BE SAVED [Rev 7:910] , just after he has set up his perfected priesthood of kings and priests in his kingdom, NOT NOW!... not in this earth :-

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:...

This is a main stumbling block for Jew and 'christian' alike , the Messiah never intended to set up his kingdom in this earth, but for men to live righteously [lovingly, without sin] in the new earth :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The many then, of all nations and beliefs , are redeemed after living as saints, perfecting their love, folowing Jesus as Lord , in the new earth after the second resurrection ... God will baptise all flesh then [Joel 2:28] to know all truth [John 16:13] and all men will be able to defeat Satan's wiles , for which purpose he is released a short while i the new earth , for the perfection of saints , but this time billions of saints, not just 144,000 ...

So God chose His saints first , not least to sho w that He has the power to declare an insignificany rebellious stiff-necked people can be made into His saints simply by his truth, by His own spirit of one truth... and that God can say this from teh beginning and make it happen ... to show the power of His truth, the power of the truth about love over man's will, that love perfected is the only way back to God's acceptance...and redemption by translation to spirit ...

Thus death is not escape from life, since there is resurrection of all men , and no death after a possible second death for some ... perfection of love is the ONLY way of redemption of creation, as teh Messiah showed us all... his way of love we all have to follow, but god has said how many will follow now, first, but the are only the first few, finding the narrow strait way of sainthood in this life, and they are first only because the priesthood has to be perfected first andf because God uses them to show \his power of prophecy and of His truth to change the will of men [whe they see that there is no other way out of the realm of men into the realm of spirit with God

Thus the insanity of men's traditions in religion is REQUIRED by God because God does not want all men saved NOW , not even all Israel saved now, just teh few ... thus He says :-

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Just ask teh question,,w hy does God blind Israel for a while, and if He blinds His chosen nation, what of His blinding of the divided religion of the gentiles...

The scripture is powerful truth IF one puts it ALL together, else men make nonsense of it by innumerable private beliefs sourced by sinners... wh believe sinners when we have the true witness of teh prophets and saints of God ???? But most me do, and most men MUST do so...

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, ...

we know most men are wrong then, it shows how easily Satan misleads men, men are proud in their beliefs, cannot reprove them to scripture through pride in traditions and sheer habit... men are easily led astry then, thus easily led back to the truth when God is ready for the many , havig set up His kingdom come in the new earth :-

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

The kingdom in which the messiah rules is on earth then, but not on this earth ... the priests of God do not then minister in this earth to the many... this earth is NOT for the redemption of the many , the new earth is...

Hence we have sinners as 'priests' now, ordained by men who are sinners themselves in countless trdaitions of sinners ... free-for-all religious mayhem with very few reproving their beliefs to EVERY word of scripture , rtaher the larger groups inventing ways to ignore the embarrassing scriptures that disprove their 'creeds' ... but so it MUST be ...

[visionary]

When Yeshua said, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath," those were not his own words. He was QUOTING. Do you know what he was quoting? Oral Torah. Soon to be written down in the Talmud. Would you STILL like to maintain that these words refer to ALL mankind? Or to the Jews, as context would indicate?Yep, Yeshua was always good at clarifying... If He mean for the Jews, He would have said so then.... John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

[stranger]

Originally Posted by GerTzedek http://www3.foru.ms/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=38642131#post38642131)
When Yeshua said, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath," those were not his own words. He was QUOTING. Do you know what he was quoting? Oral Torah. Soon to be written down in the Talmud. Would you STILL like to maintain that these words refer to ALL mankind? Or to the Jews, as context would indicate?


God rather puts it otherwise , perhaps we should listen to Him instead?

Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

God says nothing about Jews or Israel here, they did not even exist, but God just blessed anyone keeping His holy time that was given to the Jews and the House of Israel as a sign because it is the sign that all Israel are the people of God , as confirmed in the new covenant, despite that Israel was rejected and were not the people of God for a while through not keeping the old covenant...

Israel thus weere commanded to keep holy sabbath throughout their generations, but already Jews ahve changed their timekeeping habits and changed from holy sabbath worldwide , despite keeping the count so long, it was changed by Jewish law, not by God ... thus much of Israel doi not keep the sign any longer, but some who seem to be gentiles do... and interestingly they could be the House of israel's children whom god gave up to worshipping other gods three millenia ago, and who never kept judaism like the Jews always have done :-

Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

clearly the Jews do not serve other gods... so the distinction is clear in scripture ...

Deuteronomy 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

[visionary]

vis: I'm not really sure what is going on here, but it seems like every chance you get, you look for opportunities to insult CM's relationship with HaShem. I don't personally see any justification for it, and even if I did, it would still violate the rules to make these kinds of personal attacks. What even WORSE than that, is it's making things really ugly here for all of us.It was not a personal attack. It was a theological 180. He states it is historical in so many words and I say the Words of God are to be living in us today now and that it was made clear by his comment. So now I understand where he is coming from.

[ContraMundum]

vis: I'm not really sure what is going on here, but it seems like every chance you get, you look for opportunities to insult CM's relationship with HaShem. I don't personally see any justification for it, and even if I did, it would still violate the rules to make these kinds of personal attacks. What even WORSE than that, is it's making things really ugly here for all of us.

Thanks for seeing it too.

[stranger]

This is getting way off topic, please keep to the thread ... and do your personal congrats by PM , not in the way of the discussion...