All staff please weigh in (Newguy101)

[Jim47]

This thread will be used to discuss whether Newguy101 should be a moderator for the Conservative Christian forum or not, "and" to determine what if any dicipline should be given for breaking confidentiality and posting a PM I had sent him for counciling.

He replied to me and said that he dodn't have time to discuss the PM with me, but he did find time to post without permission.

Here is the report that was generated by his posting my PM to him.
http://foru.ms/t6010979

You will find several links to reports on him in the PM I sent him.



Link to a report from TCL where he tells a Lutheran Pastor and TCL member to quit posting, please also look at the discussion thread linked to the report.
http://foru.ms/t5861519-lcms-wels-els-lcc-newguy101-08-07-2007.html

Should he be a Mod For now, this is what we should consider.

If he continues to be a Mod, can he mod from the middle with out flaming others? And can he change from being a Crusader to a being Moderator(two very different callings IMO) and not go after members even when they attack him? He needs to allow the system to work meaning obey and enforce the rules in as peaceful a way as possible.


Second part of the issue:
His choice to post PMs instead of reply to them is another wrong, confidentiality was written into the forum rules even before he took a mod possition so he broke a big rule whether or not he signed agreement upon coming on staff.

I'm pretty tired and have been stressed the last few days, so I will close here for now.

[JAS4Yeshua]

Here's what I think. Mind you, this is based solely on what I've read in these reports.

1) A staff member should be humble. We are here serving the forums we moderate over. Is pride getting in the way from him being a moderator? Based on what I've seen, he isn't acting in a humble manner towards others.

2) A staff member needs to be obedient. As staff, we need to not only obey the staff requirements, but also obey the rules of the forums we are posting in. By posting the PM's without first asking permission, he had violated staff rules. Second, these two reports were clear violation of the rules of the forums he was posting in.

3) A staff member needs to be open to correction and willing to change. From what I've read of his posts in these reports, he did make some changes, but he never was willing to admit where he was wrong, or make any effort to change his attitude.

4) A staff member needs to be an example. Because we are staff, our posts are evaluated on a higher level than other posters. That is part of the responsibility. As such, we need to set the standard and the example in our own posts. Unfortunately, I only see a bad example being set in these posts.

In conclusion, based on these four items, I see NewGuy101 failing to meet the standards for a moderator. At the same time, I recognize that my only experience with NewGuy101 is from these two reports as well.

Since he is still a trainee, and we serve a God of Grace, I think that, if he is willing to learn and to change, then we should show him grace as well, and give him another chance to amend his behavior and learn from those who have more experience.

[GreenMunchkin]

Subscribing.

[Lisa0315]

NewGuy101 has stated that he is unsure that he wants to be a mod because he recognizes that his style of posting will have to change. I recommend:


A summary of his recent violations written up and presented to him.
Notes on what he would have to change if he truly wants to be a mod
Let NewGuy make the decision to be on staff or notI think that giving him the choice and presenting the things he will have to change will be the easiest way to solve this. It will have less negative impact on staff, CCC membership, and on NewGuy himself.

Lisa

[kiwimac]

subscribing

[Tonks]

I think that:

1) He should not be removed from staff at the present time and

2) He should be told what is expected.

We all stumble from time to time - Lord knows recently that I've done it more than most.

Our brother is both not with out fault recently and is hurting.

We can all go a long way to solving both those problems.

[Tishri1]

thanks Jim and Jas

New Guy please understand this isnt an inquisition and our only reason for this thread is to see if we can all counsel you to decide for your self if this is what God is calling you too....Jim has a right to feel stressed out I dont think he has ever had a mod treat PM counsel this way ever:sigh: that really disturbs me to see his PM and other staffs PMs posted in a thread like that....

and I agree your behavior is below par for that of a member of staff

being on staff means giving up alot of freedom and taking on more responsibility than the normal member...As staff of a forum we have to Mod from the middle, that means no matter how we feel we have to be bias free when we are moding and even to an extent, when we are posting too....We do have our own differing opinions and yes they are good to share but our delivery needs to aways be caring and concerned even when we do disagree with the other poster or group of posters....

Are we here to cool a thread or heat one up?
Are we here to push hots bottons in people to increase the amount of reports generated for our staff to work or try to post in a way that decreases the hot buttons in others.....

What example or "training" will we set forth each time we post in a thread...Is it true that the staff set the tone or reset the tone everytime they post.....yes that is very true

Every time a staff member posts in a thread the thread tone is set or reset for the majority of the members, if you post in an inappropriate way you are giving an bad example we cannot have a staff member give, and setting a negative tone that is not something staff should be doing BUT infact should be UNDOING:thumbsup: What are we teaching the members by this kind of leadership?

We cannot have staff, even if provoked, breaking rules in this place and on top of that we even expect more out of them than the average member,....Staff should be "on" at all times to minister in love, and spread the gospel truth IN LOVE:thumbsup:...We are ministers of peace and even when we teach a hard truth WE MUST teach it in love, and love the member we are trying to influence.....

Can you do that? You must be able to do that in order to be a staff member:thumbsup:

Also we cannot break a confidence, we should never ever see you posting a staff PM even if its not counsel in the forums again ok?

But the really sad thing is that in posting the PM in a thread to gain support for the actions reported against you, you really sent up a red flag to staff saying that you were a Crusader more than a Moderator .....by not PMing Jim back and reveling his counseling PM to others instead ,you didnt show us you can work with a team and be humble enough to answer our concerns when they arise....

Are you sure you can change and get with the program here?

This whole thread should have been a private conference between you and Jim, and I am sorry but your actions forced the whole thing out into the staff area ....I would have preferred it stay just between concerned staff....

Still we are here only to offer loving counsel and should you decide you do indeed feel led to moderate our support will be there to help you ok?

Right now though you need to decide if you can give up alot of your own stuff in order to be a staff member....

Please read these posts, and pray about them ,and lets talk about how you want to proceed with this Staff Moderation position ok?:hug::hug::hug::hug::hug:

editing to include Lisa and Tonks in my thank youhttp://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b286/flagady15/smilies/smiliegrouphugani.gif

[D'Ann]

I'm not staff, but I don't think he should be a moderator. Not now.

He needs to prove himself able to participate in a respectful way and have the ability to keep things that are confidential... confidential.

I do believe in compassion and mercy too. But trust and confidentiality are pretty big issues in my book. When someone can betray one person or team, they will and can betray another in the same way.

That being said, at one time, we all have made mistakes, we all have unintentionally said something wrong or hurtful. We all have betrayed a secret at one time or another. This is very forgiveable and understandable.

So the real question is this, can this person realize what he has done and truly repent of it and seek forgiveness? Thus, not repeating doing the same thing again? If so, forgive him and give him another chance. If not, then, remove him and be done with it.

I am not big on all of these rules and regulations and policies. Everything seems to be so legalistic. Let's make this simple. Ask him if he realizes what he has done is wrong? If he says yes. Ask him to explain what he did that was wrong. If he can do this accurately, and then ask for forgiveness... then forgive him and embrace him and show him kindness, mercy and compassion, and most of all... forgiveness.

[Tishri1]

:hug::hug::hug::hug: Exactly my thinking sis, thank you

[Lisa0315]

...And if he seeks forgiveness, it means that none of us ever throw it up to him later on...

Also, we don't allow other members to do that either...

Like, "You aren't qualified to be a mod. Staff almost removed you once!"

Lisa

[Freedom&Light]

My only concern is if he can be on a team with members with whom he has a patchy history, and who he has publicly said are not Christians.

[Lisa0315]

That is a good point, and that is one of the things that needs to be made very, very clear to him that he cannot do anymore. In fact, an offer to apologize would be a good indication that he truly wants to change.

Lisa

[GreenMunchkin]

Sorry, I know I'm not staff yet, but I really want to say something.

This whole thing about making him apologize to people... I don't like that. He owes Jim an apology, because Jim was reaching out to him, and his breaking confidentiality was wrong. But none of us are any better than him. He doesn't have to earn his place on staff - he's already been awarded it through a democratic vote.

Trishri's post said it all. If he's willing to try, that should be enough. I can't see that any of us are perfect enough to demand he prostrate himself infront of people he fundamentally disagrees with. If he can work within the rules from now on, that ought to be enough. This isn't an intervention.

It's his decision, his following God's will for him. He has to abide by the rules and mod or he can choose not to and remain a non-staff member. It's not much more complicated than that.

[Lisa0315]

Sorry, I know I'm not staff yet, but I really want to say something.

This whole thing about making him apologize to people... I don't like that. He owes Jim an apology, because Jim was reaching out to him, and his breaking confidentiality was wrong. But none of us are any better than him. He doesn't have to earn his place on staff - he's already been awarded it through a democratic vote.

Trishri's post said it all. If he's willing to try, that should be enough. I can't see that any of us are perfect enough to demand he prostrate himself infront of people he fundamentally disagrees with. If he can work within the rules from now on, that ought to be enough. This isn't an intervention.

It's his decision, his following God's will for him. He has to abide by the rules and mod or he can choose not to and remain a non-staff member. It's not much more complicated than that.

Shoot, I am so tired. I don't know what I am saying. Yeah, I think he should apologize to members whom he has said were not Christians.

Lisa

[GreenMunchkin]

Shoot, I am so tired. I don't know what I am saying. Yeah, I think he should apologize to members whom he has said were not Christians.

LisaI totally totally understand why you think that. But let me explain why I disagree. That's how he feels. And he shouldn't have to apologize for what he feels. However, he isn't allowed to express those feelings.

There are probably other mods who feel a certain "faction" aren't Christian, it's just they don't vocalize it. The rules can mandate what he can and can't say. They cannot determine what he thinks. If he can work within the rules, openly and consistently, that's all that matters.

[Lisa0315]

I totally totally understand why you think that. But let me explain why I disagree. That's how he feels. And he shouldn't have to apologize for what he feels. However, he isn't allowed to express those feelings.

There are probably other mods who feel a certain "faction" aren't Christian, it's just they don't vocalize it. The rules can mandate what he can and can't say. They cannot determine what he thinks. If he can work within the rules, openly and consistently, that's all that matters.

Well, yeah, a forced apology will not do anyone any good. I guess somewhere in my mind I was thinking that if he did it on his own and how it would be a good show that he really could do things differently. But, no, you are right. He shouldn't be forced to apologize.

Lisa

[synger]

I totally totally understand why you think that. But let me explain why I disagree. That's how he feels. And he shouldn't have to apologize for what he feels. However, he isn't allowed to express those feelings.

There are probably other mods who feel a certain "faction" aren't Christian, it's just they don't vocalize it. The rules can mandate what he can and can't say. They cannot determine what he thinks. If he can work within the rules, openly and consistently, that's all that matters.
well, in many places in these forums you actually CAN say that... if you do it a certain way.

I can't say "I don't think you can be both a practicing homosexual and a faithful Christian" but I can probably say "I think that Christians are held to the standards of the Bible, and that homosexual behavior is contrary to that teaching (and give examples)"

The trouble I've seen with Newguy (and myself at times, admittedly) is that he has said it so many times before that he just wants to cut to the chase. And the rules are pretty specific about HOW you express your disagreement with someone. It's not that he can't hold the opinions he has, or even that he can't speak up about them. It's that he tends to post contrary to the rules of civil discourse in HOW he posts his opinions.

[GreenMunchkin]

well, in many places in these forums you actually CAN say that... if you do it a certain way.

I can't say "I don't think you can be both a practicing homosexual and a faithful Christian" but I can probably say "I think that Christians are held to the standards of the Bible, and that homosexual behavior is contrary to that teaching (and give examples)"

The trouble I've seen with Newguy (and myself at times, admittedly) is that he has said it so many times before that he just wants to cut to the chase. And the rules are pretty specific about HOW you express your disagreement with someone. It's not that he can't hold the opinions he has, or even that he can't speak up about them. It's that he tends to post contrary to the rules of civil discourse in HOW he posts his opinions.You're completely right. It's kind of a shame, too, because he's a bonafide on-fire-for-God chappy, and that's such a good thing. If only more people were.

I honestly think that's what he needs to seriously talk to God about. Can he stand up for God, and do it within the parameters set by the forum. If he decides he can't, he should voluntarily recuse himself from staff. But if he feels God is leading him to be on staff, we should give him the benefit of the doubt, and support his wanting to serve the forum. It's always wonderful when someone wants to do that. But the idea of making him jump through hoops while we watch feels a little icky and self-righteous somehow.

[BelindaP]

I hope it's OK for me to post here. If not, then feel free to TB the post.

I think Newbeliever is fairly rough around the edges. He seems to think that toning down his style is the same as caving theologically. If he can be made to see that one may debate vigorously and without compromising--and yet stay within the rules--there may be hope for his modship. I can make some recommendations for who would be a good debate coach.

He needs to understand two things. The first is that moderators are seen as leaders in that they set the example for the rules. If posters see them breaking rules, they will lose respect for the rules themselves. The second is that this is an ecumenical forum. As such, he must learn to accept people of other Christian walks as brothers and sisters. He may believe as God convicts him, but his treatment of his brothers and sisters must always be gracious.

As for the apologizing--mods do need to learn to apologize, even when they think they have not fault. The Bible is clear on reconciliations with our brothers and sisters who have grievances. It doesn't say that the grievances are with cause, only that they exist. Therefore, we must always be willing to make peace and be humble enough to apologize.

I would leave the decision of whether he serves up to him. But he must understand these things first.

[flaglady]

(Actually, it's NewGuy101, Belinda, but don't get fazzled about it - we all knew who you meant!)




But the idea of making him jump through hoops while we watch feels a little icky and self-righteous somehow.

Absolutely, GM! My thoughts exactly!

However, I would like to echo Tish's words and assure this poor young chap that, despite what it seems and feels like, we're not out for a public flogging. I've been through that as I'm sure many of us have in one way or another and it's not pleasant to see a whole thread putting you under the microscope. You're our brother in Christ and we love you - "warts and all"! First be very assured of that.

Now to address this issue, as synger said in her most excellent post, you can say what you want to say. No-one's trying to muzzle you. But there are ways it can be said and ways it can't and that is so whether a one's just a member or is a mod. And being a mod means that you're a mod all over the board even though you only have authority to do modding things in the forum to which you are assigned. You still represent us all and, for the most part, staff should pretty much speak with the same voice. Tish put that very well, I thought.

So, do we let this 'prodigal son' continue with his training or not? My suggestion would be to put him on probation. That he has a certain period within which he has to prove himself to be moderator material in the eyes of his supervisors and his admins, or he can be recalled.

Whatever, there certainly should be consequences from this action but I think that since this is - so far as his position on staff is concerned - a first offence, we have to extend grace and give him an opportunity to prove that he can do better than this.

Oh yes, and another point I would like to impart - though I'm sure many of you know of this already - the usual protocol in industry for dealing with instances of misconduct is the following

1. informal interview
2. first official (written) warning
3. second official (written) warning
4. third official warning coupled with dismissal

[Jim47]

I think everyone here is willing to forgive and to forget, but the thing I am most concerned about is change going to come from this?

One simply can not represent staff and post in the manner in which NG has been doing, and then refusing to listen to staff when they have tried to help and correct him. This has to be corrected before he starts training as I will not waste my time with someone who so far demonstarated an unwillingness to listen and dicipline himself.

Those may sound like hard words but that has to be established up front just as Flaglady and others have said. Is there a willingness to correct old behavior?

I'm not looking for an apology or for NG to grovel or anything else, apologies mean nothing if the heart isn't willing to accept what is needed and grow.

I will be the first to offer my hand in friendship when I can see this taking place. Until then I agree, NG needs to be put on probation until he has shown a willingness to change for the better. I would also like to suggest that this period of probation be for 60 days, and that his staff insignia be removed until he has passed probation. If he is willing to agree to that I will make a formal anouncement in the CC forum explaining that he is going through a period of training before he can be placed and trained as a moderator.

With that laid out I would like to ask if everyone is in agreement with that? If I see staff in agreement I can start another thread with a poll if necessary, but for now please voice your opinion so I know where to go with this.

[Lisa0315]

I think that is fair, Jim. The only problem I see with that is that he will have only been a mod for about two months before he has to be re-elected. I mean, assuming that he goes through the 60 days, and then, training.

[Jim47]

I think that is fair, Jim. The only problem I see with that is that he will have only been a mod for about two months before he has to be re-elected. I mean, assuming that he goes through the 60 days, and then, training.


Yes, that is unfortunate but I also think necessary.

[flaglady]

It is a unfortunate happenstance for sure but this is a unique situation and one we have not encountered before. So we are working out the protocol as we go here.

Personally, I would prefer to see 90 days probation - or 3 months. And then an assessment by Jim, myself and Tishri, of all his posts and any reports ensuing. I would be happy to keep a tag on that. This would, of course, be carried out in a confidential manner and NG would be included and any findings discussed with him.

I also suggest this be regarding as his first official warning but that needs to go in writing along with being informed of the period of probation.

After this period has been successfully endured by NG, he can then be put up for re-election by his peers. In the meantime, his peers need to be told what has occurred but only in the briefest of terms as Jim ha ssuggested.

[D'Ann]

I like Flaglady's suggestion. It's fair.

[Tishri1]

Yes Jo and Jim I agree but can we think about letting him keep his staff Icon and continue his staff training along side his probation:thumbsup: he needs incentive as well as boundaries:wave:


90 days probation
Agree to abide by all the rules and beyond the rules to set a healthy example of leadership for all who cross his path
An apology to Jim
And as far as I am concerned yes this is his first LOC but I will make it so with an official PM to him now ok:thumbsup:
All of this is good and fair IF he still feels called to Mod still...You guys he may be struggling with that as well, and so I would say the first decision is whether he feels God calling him here, or in another direction, and that if he goes in a different direction thats ok as well:thumbsup:, and we can bless him in that as well:groupray:

[flaglady]

Well, I thought that the seriousness of what he did should be reflected in the constraints placed upon him.

But I can live with your suggestion.

[Jim47]

There is just one problem with what you suggested Tishri, and that is that he has flamed a lot of people. The bigger problem is that we get a lot of liberal visitors to the CC forum where he would be modding and I know full well how they feel about him.

My concerns are this. Although I am quite conservative in every way I think that we as conservative Christians have a calling to our liberal friends to witness to them. NG has not done a good job at of this and he needs to prove himself to everyone, both conservative and liberal.

Of course I will defer to your position :hug: but those are my thoughts and you know me, I'm not afraid to make known my beliefs :D

I am very happy with all the posts in this thread and am very thankful to all for expressing their concerns and their willingness to support and train NG. We'll have to see what happens, but now I do have to ask a question. How are we going to decide what to do?

[Lisa0315]

I strongly recommend waiting until Newguy returns. Then, present him with his options. He very well may decide that modship is not for him. I have a feeling that is exactly what is going to happen and all of this is going to be moot.

Lisa

[flaglady]

Good point, Lisa!

[MrJim]

In many ways you collection of mods disgust me in that you can't handle this business in private~spill it all out in public for all to see.

welcome to FU

[BelindaP]

Where would you propose that we handle it? There are no private forums for this anymore.

[flaglady]

Exactamundo. You all wanted to stop the 'seekret' discussions. Well, this is the kind of thing we sometimes have to discuss. Now you see the consequences of the clamouring for everything to be out in the open - everything IS out in the open. And still we get hammered. :doh:We can't do right for doing right, it seems.

And you know the axiom - "Be careful what you ask for - you might get it"!

[MrJim]

I was not part of the "open" movement, and this is exactly why.

This accomplishes nothing.

[Jim47]

I was not part of the "open" movement, and this is exactly why.

This accomplishes nothing.



Thanks for your comments, but this thread is not to do harm to anyone. WE are only trying to discuss what should be done as there is no protocal for this problem, and thus far I don't see where you have contributed except to mock staff.

[Rochir]

NG's break of confidentiality - a bad and foolish slip up, but I believe an honest mistake by him. He is new on staff, I don't know how much training he has had so far. maybe the confidentiality clause is not yet firmly ingrained in his mind. Slips happen when you are new!

BUT - his posting style seriously could be a problem! I would give him a shot, see how he develops during training, if he is willing to change his posting style.

Maybe he can do it and can grow into the job of being a moderator rather than a crusader. I would give him that chance!

However, if he is totally unwilling to see why his posting style MUST change, if he continues posting in ways insulting to others - then I would not take him on to full staff status!

My 2 cents.

[flaglady]

Actually, Rochir, the confidentiality clause is part of the core rules and not specifically to do with being on staff, though being on staff calls us to a higher standard.


1.12 Reasonable confidentiality will be respected by Staff and Members, alike. Sharing information which could be considered reasonably confidential is strictly prohibited without the permission of the party whose confidentiality is at stake. This includes the contents of .... private messages ......

[Rochir]

I understand, flaglady, but my point is that when you are new on the job, it is entirely possible that you slip up at first.

Not saying what NG did is right.

[D'Ann]

I would also like to add that if he is going to be required to apologize and work out things with Jim47... that it is done via pms... privately. I don't believe that he should have to express himself in an open forum.

Perhaps Jim47 can reach out to him in an encouraging way and gently explain how his words really have the ability to hurt and/or offend people. It's not so much in that he is wrong or right, but it is in how he says things and how it hurts people. In most cases, the only way to really reach someone is by having a lovingly and positive way of communication... sincerely and genuinely and honestly. One must build up a friendship and a sense trust. The key factor in communication is respect. If someone expresses themselves in an abrupt and hurtful and/or disrespectful way, most people will just get mad and either report the post or not even bother reading anymore of his posts. Then whatever NG was trying to convey... will not be received.

Anyway... hope this makes sense.

God's peace,

Debbie

[Jim47]

Thank you so much for your posts Debbie :hug:

I will help NG in any way I can, just as I offered before, my hand of friendship is still extended, but I need to see his willingness to change this and put it in the past. Once thats accomplished this will all be water under the damm. :)

[Tishri1]

I was not part of the "open" movement, and this is exactly why.

This accomplishes nothing.You know none of us were for these completely open places:doh: thanks Mr. Jim for your agreement at least:hug:.....

I would also like to add that if he is going to be required to apologize and work out things with Jim47... that it is done via pms... privately. I don't believe that he should have to express himself in an open forum.

Perhaps Jim47 can reach out to him in an encouraging way and gently explain how his words really have the ability to hurt and/or offend people. It's not so much in that he is wrong or right, but it is in how he says things and how it hurts people. In most cases, the only way to really reach someone is by having a lovingly and positive way of communication... sincerely and genuinely and honestly. One must build up a friendship and a sense trust. The key factor in communication is respect. If someone expresses themselves in an abrupt and hurtful and/or disrespectful way, most people will just get mad and either report the post or not even bother reading anymore of his posts. Then whatever NG was trying to convey... will not be received.

Anyway... hope this makes sense.

God's peace,

DebbieI agree D'Ann and yes we started out that way totally private in the PM sector but it was NG himself who rejected Jims attempt at counsel and made this a public affair ....I sure hope that never happens again,:sigh: It would have been finished and behind us if he hadnt done that.....still My prayer is that it can still be turned around

Thank you so much for your posts Debbie :hug:

I will help NG in any way I can, just as I offered before, my hand of friendship is still extended, but I need to see his willingness to change this and put it in the past. Once thats accomplished this will all be water under the damm. :) Jim you are amazing thanks sooooooo much for your forgiving heart:hug::hug::hug:

lets see if he still feels called to mod before we continue I wont even send a LOC untill we find out ok?:wave:

[flaglady]

Jim you are amazing thanks sooooooo much for your forgiving heart:hug::hug::hug:

lets see if he still feels called to mod before we continue I wont even send a LOC untill we find out ok?:wave:

Amen and Amen!

[Rochir]

Once thats accomplished this will all be water under the damm. :)

You do NOT want to have wanter under a DAMM!!!! That would be bad!:eek:

You want water under the bridge ;)

[NewGuy101]

There is no need, I quit my position as moderator. And no I didn't reject council by anyone. It be nice if there wasn't so my speculation about my motives.

[Jim47]

There is no need, I quit my position as moderator. And no I didn't reject council by anyone. It be nice if there wasn't so my speculation about my motives.



Why not take a week or two to think about it, all we need is to see a willingness on your part and all will be well.

[NewGuy101]

No need for it Jim.

If you like to find out more about my decision please read this. (http://foru.ms/t6050385-ive-made-my-decision.html)

[GreenMunchkin]

No need for it Jim.

If you like to find out more about my decision please read this. (http://foru.ms/t6050385-ive-made-my-decision.html)Didn't really want to ask in the main thread, but are you ok? :hug:

[Jim47]

Since I am the OP, I am closing this thread, mainly because it is now a dead issue and I don't want any ill to come out of leaving it open.