Orthodox Christianity?

[JohnChapter14]

What is it?
How do you view Jesus?
How do you view Mary?
How do you view prayer?
Do you believe only the Holy Spirit intercedes for you or is it like in

Catholicism where its "pray to jesus and the...._____________" where the blank is where you enter Saints or Mary.

Do you believe in the pope? I sure don't.
Do you believe in kissing the popes feet? I sure don't.
What does Jesus mean to you?

[Jacob4707]

What is it?
How do you view Jesus?
How do you view Mary?
How do you view prayer?
Do you believe only the Holy Spirit intercedes for you or is it like in

Catholicism where its "pray to jesus and the...._____________" where the blank is where you enter Saints or Mary.

Do you believe in the pope? I sure don't.
Do you believe in kissing the popes feet? I sure don't.
What does Jesus mean to you?

You can get some of your answers here:

http://www.oca.org/QAindex.asp?SID=3

and here:

http://www.oca.org/OCorthfaith.asp?SID=2

I'd also recommend reading two short books by Bishop Kallistos (Timothy) Ware: THE ORTHODOX WAY and THE ORTHODOX CHURCH.

You will learn much.

If you don't know WHY Orthodox do or don't do certain things, then WHAT Orthodox Christians do may not appear right to you. On the other hand, many of us here came from having been Evangelical Protestants or Catholics for most of our lives, so we, too, had many of the questions you have or might have.

Which is why I suggest you "take up and read" initially to get a basic understanding of Orthodoxy. That way your questions and our answers won't be simple soundbites or inadequate responses (i.e., if all we tell you is what we do and believe without you understanding why we do and believe these things).

After reading a little, you'll probably want to engage in a discussion of the crucial distinction between God's Essence and His Energies, and why we hold so strongly to Trinitarian doctrine, and why we derive our theology from the nature of God, and not the other way around (or did I get that backwards?). :)

[Protoevangel]

Orthodox Christianity?
Yup

What is it?
Mere Christianity

How do you view Jesus?
The son of God. God incarnate. The only name by which we might be saved.

How do you view Mary?
The Holy Theotokos. The all blessed (and all human) woman who carried God Himself within her womb.

How do you view prayer?
How do you view breathing?

Do you believe only the Holy Spirit intercedes for you or is it like in

Catholicism where its "pray to jesus and the...._____________" where the blank is where you enter Saints or Mary.
Pray to God. Ask your friends to pray for you. If Mary and the Saints are your friends, it is only natural to ask them to pray for you too.

Do you believe in the pope? I sure don't.
Absolutely, the Pope exists. He sure seems to be full of himself too. ;) He is not in communion with the Orthodox Church.

Do you believe in kissing the popes feet? I sure don't.
What's with this preoccupation with an apostate bishop?

What does Jesus mean to you?
Everything.



How's that for soundbites and inadequate responses?

I second all of Jacob's suggestions.

[Andrew21091]

What is it?

We are the one true Church that the Apostles founded.

How do you view Jesus?

Jesus is our Lord and Savior.

How do you view Mary?

She is the Holy Theotokos (God bearer). We honor her in icons and asking her for her intercessions.

How do you view prayer?

Prayer isn't only a part of life, it is our life. As St. Isaac the Syrian said "This life has been given to you for repentance; do not waste it in vain pursuits."

Do you believe in the pope? I sure don't. Do you believe in kissing the popes feet? I sure don't.

We don't believe in the in the infallibility or the supremacy of the Pope. We do not follow him, that is the Roman Catholics.

What does Jesus mean to you?

As I said above, He is our Lord and Savior so He means everything.

[vanshan]

What is it?
How do you view Jesus?
We believe:

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

How do you view Mary?

Above all women who've existed and will exist, she was chosen to give birth to Christ, so that by being made man He could share in our humanity in order for us to be able to become partakers of His Divine nature. She is a woman, born like all others, but by effort on her part she was able to live without willfully sinning. She never bore other children, but remained a virgin. Scripture says that all generations would call her blessed, and we do.


How do you view prayer?

In prayer we commune with God and allow Him to work within us. Through prayer and meditation we open our hearts to Him.

Do you believe only the Holy Spirit intercedes for you or is it like in

Catholicism where its "pray to jesus and the...._____________" where the blank is where you enter Saints or Mary.

I hope that anyone I ask will intercede in prayer for me. If someone asks me to pray for them I will. Christ is our only mediator for salvation, but obviously anyone can pray on behalf of another person. We believe that those who are alive in Christ, but departed from this life can also show love for us who are still living and pray for us too. It's been the belief of the Church from very early and the reality that those who have departed are still able to see what's going on in this life is supported by scripture. We believe God allows this and the Holy Spirit allows them to hear our requests to them for prayer. Nothing in scripture contradicts this.

Do you believe in the pope? I sure don't.
Do you believe in kissing the popes feet? I sure don't.

No. We reject him as being a apostate from the Orthodox faith. We do not have popes in Orthodoxy, but we have bishops we honor, but they are seen as fallible men. We don't kiss their feet, but we may kiss their hand in honor of the role they have as servants of Christ and as shepherds of His flock. This is not worship of them, just establishing due honor for them.


What does Jesus mean to you?

He came down to trample death by His death so that we could be saved from death, which we deserve, according to our deeds. He is my savior, the Christ, the Son of God, the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity.

Basil

[EmperorConstantine]

I'm surprised... Normally people don't venture into TAW when I recommend it! :eek::holy:


What is it?
How do you view Jesus?
How do you view Mary?
How do you view prayer?
Do you believe only the Holy Spirit intercedes for you or is it like in

Catholicism where its "pray to jesus and the...._____________" where the blank is where you enter Saints or Mary.

Do you believe in the pope? I sure don't.
Do you believe in kissing the popes feet? I sure don't.
What does Jesus mean to you?
1) Christianity in the finest form.
2) Son of God. Second person of the Trinity. God-man. Fully God, fully man. Two natures in one person with two wills (human and divine)
3) The Theotokos; birth-giver of God.
4) This one has been answered very well already...
5) This one has been answered very well already...
6 &7) Which pope? The Roman Catholic pope? The Coptic Pope? The Greek Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa?
And what do you mean by "believe in"?
Nay, we kiss no feet.
8) He is our saviour. He also conquered death (among other things)

[JohnChapter14]

There is more than one pope? :P

[JohnChapter14]

Another thing, I do not support any christian church that claims to be the only church. This causes divisions. I've heard this from many churches. I believe all christians, regardless, make up the body of christ on earth, since we all share in One Spirit, One Baptism, One Lord.

[Protoevangel]

There is more than one pope?
"Pope" simply means "papa".

The title is used by some Orthodox Patriarchs. It does not mean the same thing as it does for the Roman "Pope".

[Orthosdoxa]

Another thing, I do not support any christian church that claims to be the only church. This causes divisions. I've heard this from many churches. I believe all christians, regardless, make up the body of christ on earth, since we all share in One Spirit, One Baptism, One Lord.http://philthompson.net/pages/faq/19.html#here

Why do you talk about the Church so much? Because it's important! It's precisely in the Church that unbelievers and believers alike encounter Christ. The life in Christ is lived in relationships, not individually. Jesus Christ did not come to establish such a thing as "Christianity". Even that word itself is not in the Scriptures. What Christ did establish was the Church, which Scripture calls both His Body and His Bride, the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15). The communion which man seeks with God is to be found in the Church, something which St. Paul calls a great mystery, in which we become members of Christ: of His flesh, and of His bones. (Ephesians 5:30,32) The Bible also tells us that such as were being saved were added to the Church (Acts 2:47). They were not merely making "decisions for Christ" -- again, not a Scriptural term -- but they were repenting, being baptized for the remission of their sins, and being added to the Church. (Acts 2:38ff.) There, they were continuing steadfastly in the Apostle's doctrine and fellowship, the Breaking of Bread (what is today called the Eucharist), and the prayers.

It's worth noting that, from the day of Pentecost, the "birthday" of the Church, the Bible never speaks of Christians who were not a part of the Church. In later generations, early Christians experienced schisms, and argued over who was the true Church; but they never lost the belief that there was an identifiable, visible body called The Church. They called it "catholic," meaning "whole and complete in itself" as distinguished from outsiders like the Novatianists, Montanists or Arians. No one ever invented the notion of an invisible Church until the Protestant Reformation made the new doctrine necessary. (In Evangelicalism it's a common belief that all believers in Christ are automatically members of an invisible Church. This belief is undeniably a modern innovation, not found in any writing or tradition before the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century.)

The Enlightenment contributed to western European culture the idea of the exalted role of the individual person, his rights, and his place as judge of what he will accept as proven truth. Significantly, western European Christianity adopted this belief as its own. Today any number of Christian groups de-emphasize the role of the Church in interpreting Scripture or establishing norms of discipline and practice. The Campbellite cry, "No creed but Christ" (itself a creed) could not have emerged without Christians' embracing the innovative message of independence from the Church.

An individual Christianity dissociated from the communities founded by the Apostles can not claim to be historically, organically, the same congregation (ecclesia) which was born at the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Jerusalem on Pentecost. At best an individual, independent Christian or congregation can only claim to be an adherent to a belief system, or a para-Church organization.
It's worthwhile to look at the origins of the doctrine of an invisible Church, and examining how modern philosophy, unchecked by any restraint of previous generations of Christians, has dictated beliefs and attitudes to modern western Christians. And if a belief comes not from Scripture or even from ancient Christianity, but rather from modern rebellion against authority, perhaps that doctrine should be thrown out in favor of the ancient beliefs of previous generations.

[SeraphimSarov]

Another thing, I do not support any christian church that claims to be the only church. This causes divisions.

You want to know what churches cause divisions? People that break off from the Church. I don't buy that at all.

[Jacob4707]

Another thing, I do not support any christian church that claims to be the only church. This causes divisions. I've heard this from many churches. I believe all christians, regardless, make up the body of christ on earth, since we all share in One Spirit, One Baptism, One Lord.

What is your definition of a "christian," since you "believe all christians ... make up the body of christ on earth"?

On what basis is your definition of "christian" valid? How did you come by it?

Do you consider Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists to be Christians? If so, why? If not, why not?

The "C" word - the "Church" - was the goad against which many of us kicked (see Acts 26:14) in our efforts to resist and reject the claims the Orthodox Church makes. The questions "What is the Church?" and "Where is the Church?" eventually caused 2,000 Evangelical Campus Crusade for Christ leaders and their families and friends to join the Orthodox Church about 20 years ago.

Be careful, though... once you start asking yourself these questions, there may be no going back. :)

[Protoevangel]

Another thing, I do not support any christian church that claims to be the only church. This causes divisions. I've heard this from many churches. I believe all christians, regardless, make up the body of christ on earth, since we all share in One Spirit, One Baptism, One Lord.
Actually Jesus only established one Church. Not thousands. The one true Church has always been in union.

The fault of divisions is not in admitting that this one Holy Church still exists; Christ promised that the gates of Hades will not overcome it. The fault is in those who reject the one true Church, and decide to divide from her, starting their own "churches", based not on Christ, but on human doctrines of their own invention.

[EmperorConstantine]

Another thing, I do not support any christian church that claims to be the only church. This causes divisions. I've heard this from many churches. I believe all christians, regardless, make up the body of christ on earth, since we all share in One Spirit, One Baptism, One Lord.
Maybe we should read about why this Church or that Church makes claims instead of just saying "they claim this. They are wrong".

[rusmeister]

I think it would be best to stop with Jacob's suggestions.

If you don't know WHY something is done of course you'll reject it.

FTR, I was raised by Baptists who taught me all kinds of nonsense about what Catholics believe (actually it was misinformation - they simply didn't understand why the Catholics were doing what they do). I eventually learned that they didn't know what they were talking about and definitely didn't have a handle on the fulness of Truth (although they had pieces of it!) and it was a reason not to return to them.

If you want to understand Catholic teaching, find it out from the Catholics. If you want to learn about Orthodox teaching, find it out from Orthodox sources. (Which you are doing - good job!:) )

[DarkNLovely]

Do any of these questions sound familiar? :P

I guess I'm really not qualified to answer but if the OP is interested in my experiences here on TAW, feel free to ask.

[ticker]

Hey TAW gang...

Aria had kindly invited me to come and join in here...and this particular thread really caught my eye.


I'm exploring Orthodox Christianity more and more, and was wondering if I may add a couple more questions to the list...


-Is it necessary to baptize a child for them to enter the Kingdom?

-When you ask for forgiveness or repent...is it towards God or people? ...and...

-Do you have to do communion to be saved?


...and I don't mind soundbites


Cheers.

[rusmeister]

Hey TAW gang...

Aria had kindly invited me to come and join in here...and this thread really caught my eye.


I'm exploring Orthodox Christianity more and more, and was wondering if I may add a couple more questions to the list...


-Is it necessary to baptize a child for them to enter the Kingdom?

-When you ask for forgiveness or repent...is it towards God or people? ...and...

-Do you have to do communion to be saved?


...and I don't mind soundbites


Cheers.
Quick soundbites from a layman with not more than average intelligence:

1) God can save anyone He wants to. But we are taught to baptize our children to make it possible for them to enter the Kingdom. It is not a one-time and for all salvation event, although it is salvific. If a child died without baptism, we believe that God is merciful.

2) We ask forgiveness of both God and others. If you are referring to Confession, we confess our sins to God before the priest. Does that help?

3) Is tied in with number one. We are told by Christ in the Scriptures what we must do to be saved. There is nothing that says that we are saved in that moment, however. Salvation, if it can be described as an event, is something that takes place when life is over, when the last touches have been put on the Word Document of our lives, and only then are the 'save' or 'delete' buttons pressed, so to speak.

We don't understand the whys, but Christ said, if you do not eat My flesh and drink My blood, you have no (eternal) Life within you. So all who can do so are expected to prepare for the Eucharist (what we usually call Communion) and to take it as often as possible with the priest's blessing. How that works toward our salvation I don't understand, but then, I don't need to! I just have to have faith and believe! But as I said, I can't 'do some magic formulas' and then "I are saved". It is an ongoing process and does also depend on how I live my life. I can always choose to reject God's salvation. It is a cooperative process with God - God can give a farmer rain, sun and fertile soil, but if the farmer sits on his behind he isn't going to reap a harvest! To believe otherwise is determinism/Calvinism. If no cooperation is required on our part there is no drama and no need for struggle. Nothing we do can of itself make our salvation possible, but Christ, in defeating death, has made it possible for us.

[JohnChapter14]

which Scripture calls both His Body and His Bride, the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15).

I do not believe any one church is right when they claim to be the one "truth" church and that all outsiders are wrong. All christians make up the body of Christ. To cast judgement and call another christian one who is not part of the "real" church is crap and further divides people from each other.

It is ridiculous how even today Christians do not even agree on a simple thing such as Baptism. The Devil must be laughing his pants off at how divided we are.

[JohnChapter14]

You want to know what churches cause divisions? People that break off from the Church. I don't buy that at all.

Before I even give a reply to your message, I would like to know the meaning of what you have just said.

[rusmeister]

I do not believe any one church is right when they claim to be the one "truth" church and that all outsiders are wrong. All christians make up the body of Christ. To cast judgement and call another christian one who is not part of the "real" church is crap and further divides people from each other.

It is ridiculous how even today Christians do not even agree on a simple thing such as Baptism. The Devil must be laughing his pants off at how divided we are.
Frankly, I think you're right about the devil laughing.

However, if everyone united around a faith that is not that handed down faithfully from the Apostles to our time, his laughter would be just as sure.

Your statements do not show knowledge of Church history. Where was the Church established by Christ and maintained by the Holy Spirit from 33 A.D. to 1500, never mind to present times? What do you know of how the Church developed? Did the Holy Spirit abandon it as soon as the last Apostle died? Where was the Church during the Roman persecutions, the era of Constantine, post-Roman, etc...? What historical evidence are you aware of?

The Holy Spirit MUST have preserved His Church. Some people, somewhere, must have faithfully handed down the True Faith without change, or God is not God. Christ said, "The gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." It ought to be possible to find that original Church. It IS possible to find it.

[JohnChapter14]

Frankly, I think you're right about the devil laughing.

However, if everyone united around a faith that is not that handed down faithfully from the Apostles to our time, his laughter would be just as sure.

Your statements do not show knowledge of Church history. Where was the Church established by Christ and maintained by the Holy Spirit from 33 A.D. to 1500, never mind to present times? What do you know of how the Church developed? Did the Holy Spirit abandon it as soon as the last Apostle died? Where was the Church during the Roman persecutions, the era of Constantine, post-Roman, etc...? What historical evidence are you aware of?

The Holy Spirit MUST have preserved His Church. Some people, somewhere, must have faithfully handed down the True Faith without change, or God is not God. Christ said, "The gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." It ought to be possible to find that original Church. It IS possible to find it.

All christians believe in One Lord, One Baptism (usually), One Spirit, One God. They believe that the Son came as flesh and died for our sins and was resurrected. We believe in the Father. We all believe in Christ crucified. We all believe that christianity is basically a spiritual relationship with God and that we must live according to the Spirit and not the flesh, loving others.

What more should there be?

Put it this way:

If you and I attend two different denominations, but do the exact same things (on a basic level), living according to the Spirit, loving God and loving others, but we point fingers at each other saying the other isn't the right church, what do you think Jesus will think? The correct answer would be to say that both Jesus dwells within both christians and act as his Holy temple and his body on earth. So therefore, it doesn't matter what denomination you call yourself, Christ still dwells within you and you still follow Christ and you love others and God and walk according to the Spirit.

The problem these days is that people have this whole Mary focus, this whole focus on a system of christianity and debate over what is immoral and who is right and wrong and it appears as if we all have lost focus on what following Christ is all about.

It's not about Mary, It's not about Popes and bishops and which doctrine is right, or which rules you have to follow, what you need to do or don't do. It's about being free from the bondage of sin, about loving God and others, living according to the Spirit, spreading the gospel to the living dead who are in bondage and fighting the good fight against Satan, helping the poor, the sick, and the needy, and those who are in need for the glory of God.

And these forums are sick. They really are. I feel depressed using them because we all sit and bicker over what denomination or christian is right over others and point fingers at each other saying "your not the right church because we are because of....." and become like those Jews who became Pharasees and Suddacees, bickering over trivial things like the Resurrection of the dead.

The point of the matter is this:

God sent his Son
The Son died on the cross for our sins
The Son was resurrected
God gave us his Holy Spirit
We must live according to the Spirit in faith
We must confess our sins to God, the father, and receive his forgiveness
Jesus lives within us and we live in Him
Help the poor, the needy, the sick, the lame, the blind, preach the gospel to those who haven't heard it, spread the good news
Love others as ourselves
Love God with all our mind, body, soul, and heart
Flee from Immorality


What else do we need to do? Really! What else?

Against the Spirit there is no law. To claim it matters what "church" you belong to is crap. It matters more if you do all of the above than what "church" you belong to.

God doesn't live divisions and factions. He cares about the heart and us serving him, living our life for his glory, not bickering over who is right or wrong and caring about some doctrines people introduced into the church.

Shees, regardless whether there is doctrine about the Trinity, God is still God, and Jesus is still the Son, and Jesus is still the Spirit, and the Spirit is still God, and the Spirit still gives life and works within us. We don't all need to get legalistic about Christ and get divided and fight over doctrines introduced over the last 1500 years.

The focus is not on doctrines but loving others and God and living according to the Spirit, with faith in the Son. That is what is comes down to. A relationship between you and God and God working within you for his glory.

[Jacob4707]

All christians believe in One Lord, One Baptism (usually), One Spirit, One God. They believe that the Son came as flesh and died for our sins and was resurrected. We believe in the Father. We all believe in Christ crucified. We all believe that christianity is basically a spiritual relationship with God and that we must live according to the Spirit and not the flesh, loving others.

What more should there be?

Put it this way:

If you and I attend two different denominations, but do the exact same things (on a basic level), living according to the Spirit, loving God and loving others, but we point fingers at each other saying the other isn't the right church, what do you think Jesus will think? The correct answer would be to say that both Jesus dwells within both christians and act as his Holy temple and his body on earth. So therefore, it doesn't matter what denomination you call yourself, Christ still dwells within you and you still follow Christ and you love others and God and walk according to the Spirit.

The problem these days is that people have this whole Mary focus, this whole focus on a system of christianity and debate over what is immoral and who is right and wrong and it appears as if we all have lost focus on what following Christ is all about.

It's not about Mary, It's not about Popes and bishops and which doctrine is right, or which rules you have to follow, what you need to do or don't do. It's about being free from the bondage of sin, about loving God and others, living according to the Spirit, spreading the gospel to the living dead who are in bondage and fighting the good fight against Satan, helping the poor, the sick, and the needy, and those who are in need for the glory of God.

And these forums are sick. They really are. I feel depressed using them because we all sit and bicker over what denomination or christian is right over others and point fingers at each other saying "your not the right church because we are because of....." and become like those Jews who became Pharasees and Suddacees, bickering over trivial things like the Resurrection of the dead.

The point of the matter is this:

God sent his Son
The Son died on the cross for our sins
The Son was resurrected
God gave us his Holy Spirit
We must live according to the Spirit in faith
We must confess our sins to God, the father, and receive his forgiveness
Jesus lives within us and we live in Him
Help the poor, the needy, the sick, the lame, the blind, preach the gospel to those who haven't heard it, spread the good news
Love others as ourselves
Love God with all our mind, body, soul, and heart
Flee from Immorality

What else do we need to do? Really! What else?

Against the Spirit there is no law. To claim it matters what "church" you belong to is crap. It matters more if you do all of the above than what "church" you belong to.

God doesn't live divisions and factions. He cares about the heart and us serving him, living our life for his glory, not bickering over who is right or wrong and caring about some doctrines people introduced into the church.

Shees, regardless whether there is doctrine about the Trinity, God is still God, and Jesus is still the Son, and Jesus is still the Spirit, and the Spirit is still God, and the Spirit still gives life and works within us. We don't all need to get legalistic about Christ and get divided and fight over doctrines introduced over the last 1500 years.

The focus is not on doctrines but loving others and God and living according to the Spirit, with faith in the Son. That is what is comes down to. A relationship between you and God and God working within you for his glory.

So, what do you do or think about all the NT Scriptures that discuss or present or operate from an understanding of doctrine and church structure? I'm not saying they all do, or that it's a major focus of the NT, but those Scriptures are there. Are you saying that Paul, et al, were being superfluous or even anti-"Christian" to write those things? And ... to get back to my earlier questions: Do you consider persons who believe in Church structure and doctrine to be Christians? If so, why? If not, why not? And, specifically, do you consider Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists to be Christians? If so, why? If not, why not?

And ... it was not just in the last 1500 years; it's more like the last 1970 years. Christians were dividing and fighting over doctrines from the very beginning of the church.

[JohnChapter14]

So, what do you do or think about all the NT Scriptures that discuss or present or operate from an understanding of doctrine and church structure? I'm not saying they all do, or that it's a major focus of the NT, but those Scriptures are there. Are you saying that Paul, et al, were being superfluous or even anti-"Christian" to write those things? And ... to get back to my earlier questions: Do you consider persons who believe in Church structure and doctrine to be Christians? If so, why? If not, why not? And, specifically, do you consider Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists to be Christians? If so, why? If not, why not?

And ... it was not just in the last 1500 years; it's more like the last 1970 years. Christians were dividing and fighting over doctrines from the very beginning of the church.

Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Matt 7:20

[JohnChapter14]

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

[JohnChapter14]

for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth)
Ephesians 5:9

[JohnChapter14]

Corinthians 13
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

[JohnChapter14]

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress." (James 1:27 NIV).

[JohnChapter14]

“But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God” (1 Corinthians 1:23-24).

[JohnChapter14]

Matthew 5:1-12 1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into the mountain: and when he had sat down, his disciples came unto him: 2 and he opened his mouth and taught them, saying,
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are they that have been persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye when men shall reproach you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets that were before you.

[JohnChapter14]

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

[JohnChapter14]

Matthew 9:13 "Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have come to call not the righteous but sinners."

[JohnChapter14]

37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a (http://foru.ms/#fen-NIV-23908a)] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b (http://foru.ms/#fen-NIV-23910b)] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

[JohnChapter14]

8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,"[a (http://foru.ms/#fen-NIV-28261a)] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b (http://foru.ms/#fen-NIV-28261b)] 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. 11And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.[c (http://foru.ms/#fen-NIV-28266c)]

[JohnChapter14]

God disciplines those he loves

Hebrews 12

4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."[a (http://foru.ms/#fen-NIV-30203a)]
7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

Life by the Spirit
Galatians 5:16-23

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.


The blood of Jesus
Hebrews 9:11-28

11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here,[a (http://foru.ms/#fen-NIV-30101a)] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! 15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
16In the case of a will,[c (http://foru.ms/#fen-NIV-30106c)] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."[d (http://foru.ms/#fen-NIV-30110d)] 21In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

[B]Crucified the sin-nature with it's passions and desires
Galatians 5:24-25

24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

Exhortations
Philippians 4:4, 4:6, 4:11, 4:13

4Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
6Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.
11I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances.
13I can do everything through him who gives me strength.

Trust in the Lord (do not worry)
Matthew 6:34

34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Warning against refusing God
Hebrews 12:14-29

14Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears. 18You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20because they could not bear what was commanded: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned."[a (http://foru.ms/#fen-NIV-30217a)] 21The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear."[b (http://foru.ms/#fen-NIV-30218b)]
22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
25See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens."[c (http://foru.ms/#fen-NIV-30223c)] 27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
28Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29for our "God is a consuming fire."[d (http://foru.ms/#fen-NIV-30226d)]

[JohnChapter14]

1 john:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness

[JohnChapter14]

Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

[Anhelyna]

Excuse me

BUT

What is your purpose coming here ?

You seem to be preaching to us - and this is not appreciated.

If you really want to know what we believe - ask us - just don't quote chunks from the Bible at us.

[JohnChapter14]

Mark 3:
28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

[Anhelyna]

YAWN

here we go again

[JohnChapter14]

So, what do you do or think about all the NT Scriptures that discuss or present or operate from an understanding of doctrine and church structure? I'm not saying they all do, or that it's a major focus of the NT, but those Scriptures are there. Are you saying that Paul, et al, were being superfluous or even anti-"Christian" to write those things? And ... to get back to my earlier questions: Do you consider persons who believe in Church structure and doctrine to be Christians? If so, why? If not, why not? And, specifically, do you consider Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists to be Christians? If so, why? If not, why not?

And ... it was not just in the last 1500 years; it's more like the last 1970 years. Christians were dividing and fighting over doctrines from the very beginning of the church.


I was telling him what I think by posting all those Jesus quotes

[JohnChapter14]

YAWN

here we go again

Please do not butt into my conversation (at least not until he replies), because I posted all those quotes in sequence in regards to his post.

[Oblio]

Being the the Church and claiming such does not cause divisions. It may cause some to leave her, or to not join her, but that is the fault of the spiritual pride of those leaving or refusing to join her, not the fault of the Church for proclaiming the truth.

[Orthosdoxa]

Those are all nice Bible verses, but they do not prove your point. And you never did address my post other than with a one sentence sound bite answer. I'd like you to go through it point by point. Right now it just looks like you're here to preach to us, and not address our points.

Here's a question: Where does the Bible get its authority? There were tons of books floating around, and councils of church Bishops decided which ones would go in the canon, and which ones would go. How do you KNOW they were guided by the Holy Spirit? (Who is not Jesus by the way - one God in three distinct persons...)

Oh, and don't tell us to butt out in our own forum. You seem to have a lot of anger, maybe even hatred, in you.

[Seeker of the Truth]

JohnChapter14,

I was once in your position (and sometimes I find myself in the same position), but going around on the "defense" isn't going to help.

Perhaps you should come with an "open" heart, an "open" mind, and let the Orthodox Christians explain why they believe the things they believe.

If you would like, here's a link to my "Question Thread":

Click (http://foru.ms/t5566668-cjs-othodoxy-question-thread.html).

And remember what I said in the PM: don't preach Jesus to the Christians, preach Him to the Heretics. ;)

[JohnChapter14]

So what, are you suggesting that I won't be saved simply because I am not part of the orthodox church?

[nutroll]

I was telling him what I think by posting all those Jesus quotes
You do know that we are familiar with all those scripture passages, right? It really irks me that nearly every Protestant that comes into this forum just assumes that we have never heard or read the scriptures, and that we are all just wasting our time waiting for someone to come enlighten us. You seem to know all about the problems that our church has, and yet you know absolutely nothing about our church.

When Jesus scolded the Scribes and the Pharisees, He not only knew the Scriptures, but He knew the people. He saw first hand what their problems were. If you want to scold us, at least learn what it is that we believe, how we act, and then you can tell us why you think we're wrong.

And while you're at it, I would suggest that you go over to OBOB and run your questions by them. I have no reason to want to defend the Catholic Church, having never been a Catholic, and having no association with the Catholic Church, but I do have an interest in people educating themselves before attacking others. What you have posted as the beliefs of Catholics are wrong, and they are based on lies and mischaracterizations.

Learn whatever you can from them and from us, and then if you still disagree with us, at least we can have a rational conversation based on actual doctrine rather than perceived transgressions. We are all willing to discuss our faith with you, but we have no desire to engage in a discussion where our belief in one church is called "crap." If you can't disagree with us without being rude, it would be best for all parties involved if the conversation ended.

[Seeker of the Truth]

So what, are you suggesting that I won't be saved simply because I am not part of the orthodox church?
To whom are you replying?

[Jacob4707]

I was telling him what I think by posting all those Jesus quotes

You didn't tell me what you think. You posted Scriptures. And they were not all "Jesus quotes," as some were from some of the NT epistles (more about a couple of those books later). You make accusations against other Christians and other Scriptures, implying that if they have doctrines or divide over doctrines or claim to be the Church they are not being or believing or doing what Christians are supposed to be and believe and do.

You seem to operate from a premise that you know what a Christian is and what they are and are not supposed to believe and be and do, and when I ask you some questions that try to understand your premises, like:

- how you define Christian, and
- why you pick some Bible verses but not others, and
- whether everyone who calls themselves a Christian is a Christian, or every church which calls itself a Christian church is a Christian church

you simply throw Bible verses at me. :scratch:

(Also, on the one hand you say that all are christians, but when I ask you specifically if you think that those who call themselves "Christian" Scientists are "Christians," or if those who call themselves members of the "Church of "Jesus Christ" of Latter-Day Saints are members of Christ's church, you avoid the question.)

Which leads to another few questions:

- Why do you use the Bible?
- Why do you use for your New Testament the 27 books that are in your New Testament, no more, no less, no others?
- If I told you that I didn't think the book of James should be in the Bible (which you apparently like, because you quoted the orphans and widows passage from it), nor the book of Hebrews (which you quoted voluminously from), how would you respond to me, and why and on what basis? I don't think James should be in the Bible because it teaches a form of "works righteousness," and I don't think the book of Hebrews should be in the Bible because we don't know who wrote it and it teaches that there is no repentance and rebaptism after falling away. If I reject the books of James and Hebrews, is that okay with you? (I think I'll also reject 2 and 3 John and 2 Peter and Revelation, but for other reasons.)

Forgive me if the questions sound confrontational. They're really not meant to be read in that manner, but more in the manner of simply asking in hopes of getting your responses. I think once you begin to think about these questions, you'll realize that doctrines and divisions and church structures are inevitable even when it comes to yourself, who seems to despise such things. The issue is not doctrines and divisions and church structures (or lack thereof, which is just another form of doctrine or division or church structure), but which ones, and why.

[PrincessMommy]

So what, are you suggesting that I won't be saved simply because I am not part of the orthodox church?

I think there may be a bit of a misunderstanding here. When you say "church" are you thinking about who is saved and who is not saved? Because when we say "Church" we are talking about the "Pillar and Foundation of Truth". Who is saved (or not) is up to God.

Often times Protestants assume that when we say "Orthodox is the True Church" we are judging another's salvation. This is not the case.

I hope this clarifies things a bit.

[Bushmaster78FS]

Kissing the pope's feet? That is something I just heard now, these are terrible misconceptions... I know I am not Catholic but I fought over this kind of stuff with a colleague at lunch once, he insisted Catholics had to kiss pope's ring!!! Come on, snap out of this, you guys misconceptions are worse than ya-ya myths...

[JohnChapter14]

What you have posted as the beliefs of Catholics are wrong, and they are based on lies and mischaracterizations.

Oh ya, perhaps you believe I am wrong in my beliefs that it is total bull how Mary is incapable of sinning?
Perhaps I am wrong for not agreeing that Mary and Saints do not intercede Spiritually for us when we pray?
Perhaps I am wrong about christians being the body of Christ and there is only "one true church"

When I posted those Jesus quotes, I wasn't preaching a sermon, but just pointing out what I believe. I should have posted them together, in one post, and made it more clear it was what I believed in. I wasn't attacking anyone here for anything. Someone just asked something what I believed regarding the Jesus.

I'm not some protestant coming in here to shoot down anyone's beliefs here, but suggesting to some of you, "don't you think following Christ should just basically be about this?"

I've had Catholics on this forum claim I'm a lost son of Christ because I am not part of the Catholic church and I had a United Church of Christ in real life say the same thing to me.
I strongly am against any one particular church claiming to be "the right one" no matter how old they are, despite their history. I am aware the church, in general is really old, and I do not believe the Holy Spirit would let the gates of Hell prevail against Jesus's church. But I believe that people have the wrong idea of what church really is. It isn't just some denomination, or building in my belief, or a particular group, but those who make up the body of Christ on earth and hold fast to the commandments of Christ, which are basically to love others as ourselves and love God with all our mind, body, soul, and heart.

I'm not coming here to tell you guys what to do or what to believe in, and I'm not coming here to preach. I was just stating what I believed in and asking "well....don't ya think a lot of churches these days have lost focus and become too divisive, focusing more on what doctrines are right more than what really matters: Loving God, loving others, and Living according to the Spirit and have faith in Jesus?"

There are so many churches that claim to be "the right one" and so many people saying to me "I use to be like you...until I converted to (insert blank)"

I can't help but look at what Scriptures I have and see what Jesus and God teaches: The heart, living according to the Spirit, living by faith in the Son and in God, loving others, ect.

There is so much debate, so much discussion, so much disagreement, so much controversy, so much slandering, so much division, so much of everything....it's like....christians don't with each other today.

I hate these divisions....I hate these factions....

Why can't it just be so simple....

I sorry if I came across as some jerk who wanted to tell people what to do. That's not what I was trying to do.









Sorry......forgive me.......

[Oblio]

Oh, and don't tell us to butt out in our own forum. You seem to have a lot of anger, maybe even hatred, in you.


1000 blessings says he's ex-RC or has a close relative who is either Catholic or ex-Catholic and is channeling their hatred.

[Bushmaster78FS]

Before I even give a reply to your message, I would like to know the meaning of what you have just said.

He said it so well and if you don't get what he said, then what can we ever tell you?


BTW, this guy is borderline trolling, pay attention.

[JohnChapter14]

You want to know what churches cause divisions? People that break off from the Church. I don't buy that at all.

So If I break off from the Your church by not agreeing with giving prayers to Mary, then I am not following God correctly?

[JohnChapter14]

ok......

I'm going to stop right here.

I don't know enough about Orthodox Christianity so I am not going to continue.

Forgive me if I have sinned in any way against any of you.

[nutroll]

whether you believe we are wrong is irrelevant to what I was saying. I was saying that you are incorrectly stating Catholic beliefs in your OP. That is unacceptable behavior for someone who is decrying all the divisions between christians. You ought to know what people believe and refrain from using adjectives like "crap" if you are really interested in unity. Nobody here cares whether you agree with us on any doctrinal issue. We only care that when you disagree with us you do so civilly. I'm sure the same thing applies to the Catholics.

You may very well have good intentions, but your knowledge about the Orthodox and Catholic churches need some work. Until that is addressed, you are always going to appear aggressive and factious to us, because you are going to be accusing us falsely rather than disagreeing with us.

[Oblio]

So If I break off from the Your church by not agreeing with giving prayers to Mary, then I am not following God correctly?

You are not.


Brethren, confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
(Jam 5:16 KJVA)

[DarkNLovely]

1000 blessings says he's ex-RC or has a close relative who is either Catholic or ex-Catholic and is channeling their hatred.
Hatred?

[Oblio]

Hatred?

Yes, hatred. Not all, nor even most harbor such hatred for Catholics, but it does exist. I've seen it quite a few times over the past years here at CF.

Those that are obsessed and even pathological in their hatred have a high probability of being in the groups mentioned above.

[DarkNLovely]

But how do you know its hatred?

[Oblio]

But how do you know its hatred?


By it's fruits. None of them are of the spirit, most are from satan. I could reference the pertinent Scriptures if you like :)

[Seeker of the Truth]

EXCUSE ME!!!

I know I'm not a MOD or ADMIN or whatever, but I do have a heart.

This guy has a background, much like many of you, stop attacking him! He may have carried himself a little "defensively", but he just apologized!

Please, PM him and let him know you're sorry (if you truly are) for attacking him because if you don't, you're going to give the EOC a bad rep to a Protestant whom yields the power to bridge Protestantism and Catholicism.

What more did Christ die for? Did He not say to love your neighbor? Please, have some remorse and PM him.

Now, hopefully he'll come back and you can have a civil conversation much like I did in my thread. His apology is genuine; at least read it!

[Oblio]

That and direct admissions that run something like this:

I don't hate Catholics, I just hate the Catholic church [or doctines/beliefs] ...

[ma2000]

I've had Catholics on this forum claim I'm a lost son of Christ because I am not part of the Catholic church [anymore?]

1000 blessings says he's ex-RC or has a close relative who is either Catholic or ex-Catholic and is channeling their hatred.

Hmm... that's not realy a fair bet. Now... if you would bet a bottle of scotch that he wasn't a Catholic... :P

[Seeker of the Truth]

You guys really disappoint me.

Where'd your heart go?

[Jacob4707]

ok......

I'm going to stop right here.

I don't know enough about Orthodox Christianity so I am not going to continue.

Forgive me if I have sinned in any way against any of you.

Well, I hope you consider my questions to you anyway, and that you read the books/Web info I recommended in my first response to you as a way to learn some basic info about the Orthodox Church. If you read those, you'll know 100x more than I knew when I first began studying the Orthodox Church about 3 years ago.

G'day!

[Oblio]

EXCUSE ME!!!

I know I'm not a MOD or ADMIN or whatever, but I do have a heart.

This guy has a background, much like many of you, stop attacking him! He may have carried himself a little "defensively", but he just apologized!

Please, PM him and let him know you're sorry (if you truly are) for attacking him because if you don't, you're going to give the EOC a bad rep to a Protestant whom yields the power to bridge Protestantism and Catholicism.

What more did Christ die for? Did He not say to love your neighbor? Please, have some remorse and PM him.

Now, hopefully he'll come back and you can have a civil conversation much like I did in my thread. His apology is genuine; at least read it!

Part of it is due to simulposting , and part of it is the history of our visitor in other regions of CF that have been less than kind to our faith. I will however review my posts and see if they need action in light of the facts.

[Seeker of the Truth]

Thank you Oblio.

And please, don't let this one (referring to the OP) get away. After a few PMs, He seems to have a genuine curiousity of the EOC.

[ma2000]

You guys really disappoint me.

Where'd your heart go?
You are right, Seeker of the Truth. We are to show love to our neighbor.
Beasides, it's the first time he comes in here.

Titus 3:10
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

[Oblio]

I sorry if I came across as some jerk who wanted to tell people what to do. That's not what I was trying to do.


As God forgives ...

Forgive those of us who appear to have misjudged you.


Now, you are welcome to fellowship and ask questions about our faith, but we kindly ask that you not debate us, or preach to us. All of your questions in the proceeding posts can be reworded so as not to be accusatory or argumentative. If done, I am sure that folks here will answer them.

e.g. Why do you think the EOC is the true Church, and how would you respond to accusations that it causes divisions in the body of Christ ?

I could create a sock, come in TAW, and post that question and get a far different response than you received above.

Try it :)

[Jacob4707]

Part of it is due to simulposting , and part of it is the history of our visitor in other regions of CF that have been less than kind to our faith. I will however review my posts and see if they need action in light of the facts.

I just looked at some of his postings in other forums here (e.g., OBOB) and I see what you mean by the history and nature of his postings.

Thank you Oblio.

And please, don't let this one (referring to the OP) get away. After a few PMs, He seems to have a genuine curiousity of the EOC.

From reading his posts here and elsewhere, it is a bit hard for me to believe that he at this point is genuinely curious and willing to engage in an open two-way dialogue, esp. if that dialogue will inevitably challenge Sola Scriptura positions and premises. The unwillingness to answer my questions, yet willingness to challenge other people in his other posts about the whys and wherefores of what they believe, suggests to me a lack of openness.

[DarkNLovely]

By it's fruits. None of them are of the spirit, most are from satan. I could reference the pertinent Scriptures if you like :)
Sure!

But then can't the same be said about Catholic and Orthodox? Vehemenently disagreeing isn't hatred.

DOES ORTHODOX HERE HATE ME?

[Oblio]

DOES ORTHODOX HERE HATE ME?


Where has anyone implied this ?


But then can't the same be said about Catholic and Orthodox? Vehemenently disagreeing isn't hatred.


No, but willful and repeated lying and bearing false witness about another's faith is different than vehemently disagreeing.

[DarkNLovely]

Where has anyone implied this ?

Nowhere! That was rhetorical! It was an example of an absurdity, as I believe that saying that Protestants hate Catholics/Orthodoxes just because is absurd.


No, but willful and repeated lying and bearing false witness about another's faith is different than vehemently disagreeing.

But couldn't I or any other Prtotestant say that the EOC lies about our beliefes? To be honest I have been told some things on here about Protestantinsm that isn't true, but I know you don't hate me.

You see what I mean? You have reason why you believe what you believe and why you don't like my particular faith and you state them. I could think they are absolutly wrong, but do you HATE me? Hate is a very strong word.

[Anhelyna]

But really DarknLovely - there is a difference in the way you approach the questioning.

YOU come over as interested - you seem to listen to us - you join in conversations.

If someone comes in and rattles off a lot of biblical verses and doesn't really give us a chance to think and respond before we get another whole post of Verses given to us - we start to wonder. Oh and remember I am not Orthodox - but I don't treat my brothers and sisters here like that. I ask and get an answer - if I need more then I ask again - but notice I ask - I don't demand and I don't make statements such as we have been presented with in this thread.

Normally how we respond depends very much on the approach to us. Come in bristling and we will bristle back .. Come in telling us that other folk say that we say that non Orthodox folk are damned is not going to help - we don't say that - after all the only person who knows who will not enter Heaven is God .

Sorry - I've seen this sort of thing before - and I don't like it.

[Orthosdoxa]

Hey John14...

You said you don't know enough about Orthodox Christianity to fight with us about. Well - no time like the present to start learning. :) Really. You can reference my website at http://stienekel.tripod.com/ to start learning some, or start a thread to ask questions. We don't like debate - but we'll answer any honest question.

To be honest I have been told some things on here about Protestantinsm that isn't true

There are so many different stripes of Protestantism that it is impossible for anyone to say "Protestantism teaches or doesn't teach this or that" because somewhere, some church, might. I was raised super hard-core Conservative Baptist. DH was raised Fundamentalist Independant Baptist... and we were still taught different things! In fact, my MIL thinks the type of Baptists I was raised with are all going to hell. (so you can imagine what she thinks about the Orthodox.)

However, what we as Orthodox believe is pretty universal, so misinformation about us is pretty easy to pick out. So it's not really the same thing. I'm going to give John14 the benefit of the doubt and if he wants to simply learn and ask questions, I'm all about that.

[Oblio]

But couldn't I or any other Prtotestant say that the EOC lies about our beliefes? To be honest I have been told some things on here about Protestantinsm that isn't true, but I know you don't hate me.


You can't just say they lie. I'm talking about those that are directly told 'this is what I believe ...' yet the antagonist continues to tell them and others different.

Now, as to your specific; Did you tell them that that is NOT what you believe ? Did they continue to misrepresent you after being told otherwise ? If they did, I wish you would let us know because we will admonish them to cease and desist with such behavior. And that is NOT a rhetorical statement !

[Akathist]

So If I break off from the Your church by not agreeing with giving prayers to Mary, then I am not following God correctly?

I am really confused by this statement. We do not "give prayers to Mary". We ask her for her intercessions. Sometimes the word "ask" is said to be "pray" but it is like "pray tell me". It is an old way of speaking we don't use much now, but that is what is meant by it.

We only worship and truely pray to God (the Holy Trinity). We ask our brothers and sisters to pray for us too. (some of our brothers and sisters are Saints some are alive and amoung us, some are over the internet.) Prayer is that important to us.

So, you could not break away from the Eastern Orthodox Church if you believed as we do... that we only really "pray to" the Trinity.

(I deliberately ignored the other concerns in this thread. But will say this.... the various faiths we refer to as "protestants" are very very different from one another. If someone said "protestants" are like this or that maybe it is because some protestants are like this or even if they are not all that way. Most of the people active in TAW are former "protestants" so it is not like we don't know about the other beliefs.)

[Jacob4707]

Also, the term "Protestant" can include everyone from high church Anglo-Catholics to liberal Episcopalians to Lutherans (liberal and conservative) to Presbyterians to Arminians to Calvinists to Baptists to Charismatics, Pentecostals and snake-handlers, and perhaps even to Oneness Pentecostals. One thus can't even say about "Protestants" that they are "Sola Scriptura" or "Once saved, always saved" or non-sacramental or non-liturgical in their beliefs and practices.

[elizabethevangeline]

From reading his posts here and elsewhere, it is a bit hard for me to believe that he at this point is genuinely curious and willing to engage in an open two-way dialogue, esp. if that dialogue will inevitably challenge Sola Scriptura positions and premises. The unwillingness to answer my questions, yet willingness to challenge other people in his other posts about the whys and wherefores of what they believe, suggests to me a lack of openness.


I've been here long enough to remember some pretty rough "entries" into TAW by individuals who are now Orthodox, or well on the way to chrismation :)

[Orthosdoxa]

Me too, ee. :)

[elizabethevangeline]

:cool:

hmm...I suppose starting a list would be inappropriate huh? ^_^

[Orthosdoxa]

Probably. :P

[DarkNLovely]

You can't just say they lie. I'm talking about those that are directly told 'this is what I believe ...' yet the antagonist continues to tell them and others different.

Now, as to your specific; Did you tell them that that is NOT what you believe ? Did they continue to misrepresent you after being told otherwise ? If they did, I wish you would let us know because we will admonish them to cease and desist with such behavior. And that is NOT a rhetorical statement !

Nopers. Again I just wanted to know and not argue so unless I felt it was relavant, I didn't mention it. Everybody is nice on TAW! :)

[ticker]

What a promising thread...it seems that guy had an agenda. I had a feeling he might've.

Could you at least help me with my curiousity in the Orthodox way?

I had the three questions about baptism, foriveness, and communion...had 1 response, but wanted to know some more opinions about this if I could.

-Is it necessary to baptize a child for them to enter the Kingdom?

-When you ask for forgiveness or repent...is it towards God or people? ...and...

-Do you have to do communion to be saved?



Cheers

[Orthosdoxa]

Hi ticker-

I didn't answer your questions bc I thought the person who did was spot in all aspects. I would imagine that's why you didn't get any other answers, either - you got the right ones the first time! :)

[Asinner]

Hi Ticker :wave:


-Is it necessary to baptize a child for them to enter the Kingdom?

Yes.

-When you ask for forgiveness or repent...is it towards God or people? ...and...

Both.

-Do you have to do communion to be saved?

Yes.


Love,
Christina

[rusmeister]

What a promising thread...it seems that guy had an agenda. I had a feeling he might've.

Could you at least help me with my curiousity in the Orthodox way?

I had the three questions about baptism, foriveness, and communion...had 1 response, but wanted to know some more opinions about this if I could.



Cheers
I offered answers for you on the other thread, ticker. (Asinner, your answers, while correct, are too short to be understood properly by most)

[hungrytiger]

Hi JohnChapter14 :wave: I don't know if you're still reading this thread but I thought I'd try and respond to some of the issues you bring up.

About there being a seperate visible church, I've heard an analogy that really helped me understand the idea. (I've posted much of this part before, so people who are regulars here, please forgive me.) I think of the Church as being analogous to (OT) Isreal. Isreal was God's chosen people in a special way. Isreal was also a visible nation. A Jew was visibly a part of the nation of Isreal, and Gentiles were not. But some Jews who were Jews outwardly, weren't true Jews. And some Gentiles were, in a way, true Jews inwardly. And being a true Jew inwardly is more important. At the same time that does not deny that there really was a visible identifiable earthly people of Isreal. And there was good in being a part of the earthly people of Isreal. They were revealed God in a special way. But this is no reason for them to boast. Rather they, in a way, have more to be ashamed of for what wrongs they have done. Yet still, there was great benefit in being a Jew. (I think the Book of Romans kind'a makes the Jew/Gentile point I was trying to. I may be misunderstanding it, but it seems to put it beautifully to me.) The Church is like Isreal. Yes, being a true Christian inwardly is more important than being outwardly united to the visible Church. But being part of the visible Church is important, meaningful, and good, and does help.

About what really is important for us to do is to love God and one another: absolutely! The problem is that we don't really know how to do this on our own and can't really figure it all out by ourselves either. Luckily Christianity is a revealed religion. God gives us all we need. :clap: He gives us so much sometimes we're like "What's this for? Urgh!" ^_^ But everything He gives us is precious and good. Perhaps we're just not be ready for it yet. God is so much greater than us, it makes sense that we can't take it all in at once. But He provided for us all we need for our love to grow. He entrusted this to the Church He founded. So while a lot of the stuff the Church may teach may seem "unnecessary" to me, I can still trust that it's true and worth safegaurding. I think I've already found much that I may have thought unnecessary before to be good and helpful. Our God doesn't give us just the bare minimum we need to get by. He showers us with love. :)

Also Christianity isn't just a philosophy, it's made of things that really happened and it involves real people. You can't just reduce people to abstract concepts and say oh, that's all we need to know about them. Well, not when the whole of Christianity is about loving people. You don't minimalize people you love.

Ugh, this was rambly. Sorry. Hope that I wasn't way off base and that it made some sense. :sorry:

[ticker]

I offered answers for you on the other thread, ticker. (Asinner, your answers, while correct, are too short to be understood properly by most)
Yeah thanks...I know. I just wanted a couple more opinions, because I know some Orthodox who differ in their answers. Kinda wanted to know the majority concensus.

...and thanks Asinner for your input.

[JohnChapter14]

Hello everyone.

Forgive me for coming in here with some questions and not understanding and knowing much about your church.

I do not believe that protestantism is always right and I do not believe that Catholicism (I'll be more specific: What I have been reading about from on the Catholic forum section on these forums and about the pope in the vatican) is always right either.

I attend a Baptist and an Anglican church because I love God and love the people who attend it. I don't consider myself an Anglican or a Baptist if you want to know and I am more non-denominational than anything.

I do not agree with several things: such as infant baptisms, second baptisms, I often wonder that spiritual gifts may be over exaggerated such as in Pentecostal churches (specifically tongues), I do not agree with the Rosary, I believe only God intercedes for you and that Saints and Mary, despite what people believe about them being in Heaven, do not intercede for you.
But, I love all christians in Christ, but I have done some deep thinking today, since I have been on these forums.

I shouldn't get so upset over what other christians do act gently toward people who do things different.

My mother is a Catholic. So many of my friends at work are Catholic and I do not hate them. I love them all. I don't even mention most of the stuff I complain about on these forums to them because I do not want to offend them or cause disputes. I always love to talk about Jesus with them and about how he is the cornerstone, how he loves us all, how he is always there and how he has affected my life.

I don't really know anything about Orthodox. I was never a Catholic, but my mom gave me Catholic ideas before I knew anything about Christ, other than that he died for our sins. My mom taught me to pray to Saint Nan (or Ann) and ask her for help and not once did she ever tell me to pray to Jesus. She just said to ask Saint Nan for help. I didn't really understand any of that when I was younger but did it and as I got older, I found no evidence for such things in Scripture and forgot those things.

To say I am a heretic is......it isn't something any of you should say to me.

I should be be quick to listen, slow to speak.

I haven't read too much about church history and I still don't know the whole fighting that is going on between Protestant and Catholics. Most of the Catholic ideas that I learned about were from these forums.

I don't even know anyone from the Orthodox church in real life.

I am lacking some things: Compassion and love.

If I have sinned against anyone or offended anyone, forgive me.

[Jacob4707]

.

[Oblio]

Yeah thanks...I know. I just wanted a couple more opinions, because I know some Orthodox who differ in their answers. Kinda wanted to know the majority concensus.


There are certain things that are not open to opinion. You may get several answers, but only one of them is the Orthodox belief. It's the same way with the interpretation of Holy Scripture.

[rusmeister]

Hey, John!
You are very welcome in here with an attitude like that!
Sometimes some of us fail to hold that attitude - please forgive us when we do! :bow:

It's understandable that you should not agree with some things, based on what you know now. The thing I would advise is to seek to understand why the things we do that you object to are practiced in the Orthodox Church.

FTR, we don't believe in multiple baptisms either - the Nicene Creed (sometimes called the 'Symbol of Faith) which we recite at every Liturgy and in daily prayer specifically states that we believe in one Baptism - normally, if a person was baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit with water (ie, in a manner consistent with Orthodox teaching), they are not re-baptized (I was baptized first as a catholic infant, then as a Baptist boy - the first was considered to have been my Baptism and I was received into the Church via Chrismation.)

I hope nobody's denouncing you as a heretic here - a heretic, properly speaking, is someone who first accepted, then rejected Orthodox teaching and deliberately teaches something else.

One thing is clear - if you continue to hold that attitude, you are not so far from God, no matter what. We are all lacking things and all need to humble ourselves and ask forgiveness more than we do. The Church is a place for the sick (like us) rather than for the healthy.

Again, there are explanations completely consistent with Scripture for Orthodox practice - you just haven't found out what they are yet! :) (I personally was hostile to Confession before a priest, initially)

[Seeker of the Truth]

Hey,

Just wanted to drop by and let you know there are great sources on the net to use when you're trying to answer these questions.

I'm about to go to class, but here's a link to an article on Infant Baptism (http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7067.asp). Check it out and feel free to explore the site and read the other articles.

CJ

[Xpycoctomos]

Hey john, sorry we kind of went off on you. We get accused of a lot of wierd stuff and it happens so often that people come in here accusing us despite sources that disprove their acusations that we get a bit on the defensive.

If we were perfect, we would let even this slide of our backs (turn the other cheek) and not suddenly assume they are "trolling" so to speak.

Based on yoru posts, I don't believe you are trolling but it does seem to me that you harbor some resentment (theologically correct or not, I think "hatred" holds connotations that are MUCH too strong and not proper in this context) toward the Catholic Church. And I will say that I would too (not that I should) if Catholics really believed the stuff you had always been taught to believe. But as others have suggested, it is best to take that up in OBOB and just remember that they know their faith a lot better than you know Catholicism so keep an open mind there, NOT so that you can be convicned to become Catholic but that you might be able to inform yourself of what they REALLy believe and WHY they REALLY do what they do and also, this way, understand where your faith and Catholicism REALLY disconnect.

But, it is true that much of the misinformation out there about Catholics is also attricbuted to us becuase the truth is that a lot of the things about Catholicism that seem wierd or even wrong to many protestants at first and second glance are also found in our Faith and Tradition.

Saints, prayer to saints,
Prayers for the dead,
The real presence of Jesus' Body and Blood in Communion
The sacraments
Our concept of the Church
Our concept of authority and the place of Bishops (although we do not hold anything similar to the RCC belief regarding their Pope)
Salvation (our manner of explaining is different approach becuase it has an eastern bent to it so perhaps we could say that the philosophical appraoch tends to be different but the theological consequences are generally the same)
and I am sure I have missed some others.

However, instead of making this about Catholics, let's just stay focused on what we believe and do AND WHY we believe and do this.

I think the conversation will be much more beneficial to all of us.

As others have made clear here, we are not at all offended if in the end you are not convinced. We are not at all offended if you are coming here with NO intention of even CONSIDERING becoming Orthodox. All we want is for you and any other guest to come here with an open mind willing to take our word (checked with valid resources of course when necessary) on what WE believe and why we believe it. Does that make sense?

Also, just use tact. It's alright to continue to dig deeper. I think it was oblio who spoke of this. There are two ways you can dig deeper.
1) "Why do you hold such an illogical/pagan belief as to say you pray before icons. that's idolatry!"
OR
2) "From my point of view, praying to icons sounds like idolatry. Can you explain that more?"

The first one told us that the poster is not willing to listen to us. He of she has already made up their mind that our practice is idolatrous. The second one tells us simply 1) how the poster views the belief at first glance and 2) that he/she wants to be informed more and is perfectly willing to let go of his/her primary (mis)conception as long as we are willing to patiently explain and try to understand where he/she is coming from.

You see, in a discussion like this, it is important for both the guest and the host to step out of their shoes to try and understand where the other is coming from. It takes effort on both sides, and quite frankly, as things got a little heated in the middle of this discussion, I'm not sure either side did that well (with a few exceptions of course).

So, let's start off again, John. There are surely some things that bother you. Why don't you start off with a sincere question about our faith and both of us will work on not getting defensive or offensive but simply approaching the quesitons and repsonses in an adult-like, rational manner. Then we'll all be happy.

John

PS: again, NO ONE here is expecting that you will become Orthodox.

[Asinner]

Y
...and thanks Asinner for your input.

You're welcome.:wave:

[authiodionitist]

PS: again, NO ONE here is expecting that you will become Orthodox.


But I hope you will at least attend a Liturgy in your hometown at least once!
But first you should read this....http://www.saintspiridon.org/firstvisit.html

[DarkNLovely]

Hello everyone.

Forgive me for coming in here with some questions and not understanding and knowing much about your church.

I do not believe that protestantism is always right and I do not believe that Catholicism (I'll be more specific: What I have been reading about from on the Catholic forum section on these forums and about the pope in the vatican) is always right either.

I attend a Baptist and an Anglican church because I love God and love the people who attend it. I don't consider myself an Anglican or a Baptist if you want to know and I am more non-denominational than anything.

I do not agree with several things: such as infant baptisms, second baptisms, I often wonder that spiritual gifts may be over exaggerated such as in Pentecostal churches (specifically tongues), I do not agree with the Rosary, I believe only God intercedes for you and that Saints and Mary, despite what people believe about them being in Heaven, do not intercede for you.
But, I love all christians in Christ, but I have done some deep thinking today, since I have been on these forums.

I shouldn't get so upset over what other christians do act gently toward people who do things different.

My mother is a Catholic. So many of my friends at work are Catholic and I do not hate them. I love them all. I don't even mention most of the stuff I complain about on these forums to them because I do not want to offend them or cause disputes. I always love to talk about Jesus with them and about how he is the cornerstone, how he loves us all, how he is always there and how he has affected my life.

I don't really know anything about Orthodox. I was never a Catholic, but my mom gave me Catholic ideas before I knew anything about Christ, other than that he died for our sins. My mom taught me to pray to Saint Nan (or Ann) and ask her for help and not once did she ever tell me to pray to Jesus. She just said to ask Saint Nan for help. I didn't really understand any of that when I was younger but did it and as I got older, I found no evidence for such things in Scripture and forgot those things.

To say I am a heretic is......it isn't something any of you should say to me.

I should be be quick to listen, slow to speak.

I haven't read too much about church history and I still don't know the whole fighting that is going on between Protestant and Catholics. Most of the Catholic ideas that I learned about were from these forums.

I don't even know anyone from the Orthodox church in real life.

I am lacking some things: Compassion and love.

If I have sinned against anyone or offended anyone, forgive me.
No body means to offend when they say heretic! I'm sure they will end up thinking the best of you anyway! That being said, I actually don't mind the title! *shrugs*

*Forgive me if I have offended any one!*

[SeraphimSarov]

Here's what you say if anyone ever calls you a heretic... you tell them you're not Orthodox, have never been Orthodox, and thus can't possibly be in a position of influence within Orthodoxy - so, by definition, you cannot possibly be a heretic!

If someone tells you that you hold a belief that's been condemned as heresy, it does NOT mean that you yourself are a heretic. That label is usually reserved for folks like Arius and Nestorius, not for modern-day protestants who might not even know who they are!

[DarkNLovely]

Here's what you say if anyone ever calls you a heretic... you tell them you're not Orthodox, have never been Orthodox, and thus can't possibly be in a position of influence within Orthodoxy - so, by definition, you cannot possibly be a heretic!

If someone tells you that you hold a belief that's been condemned as heresy, it does NOT mean that you yourself are a heretic. That label is usually reserved for folks like Arius and Nestorius, not for modern-day protestants who might not even know who they are!
Nestorius, Nestorius.......? The whole "Don't call Mary the Teotokos!" guy, right? Arius? Um,......said Jesus was not divine, correct?

[SeraphimSarov]

Nestorius, Nestorius.......? The whole "Don't call Mary the Teotokos!" guy, right? Arius? Um,......said Jesus was not divine, correct?
Apparently you are not one of the folks who aren't familiar with them. :)

Either way, I stand by my post.

[DarkNLovely]

Apparently you are not one of the folks who aren't familiar with them. :)

Either way, I stand by my post.
It actually hurt to pull those out of my memeory! Owie! LOL!

[SeraphimSarov]

It actually hurt to pull those out of my memeory! Owie! LOL!
I know the feeling all too well...

[ticker]

There are certain things that are not open to opinion. You may get several answers, but only one of them is the Orthodox belief. It's the same way with the interpretation of Holy Scripture.
Thanks

So I'm guessing then that you'd agree these are the basic answers regarding:

-baptism

-forgiveness

-communion...

1) God can save anyone He wants to. But we are taught to baptize our children to make it possible for them to enter the Kingdom. It is not a one-time and for all salvation event, although it is salvific. If a child died without baptism, we believe that God is merciful.

So I'm curious here about the many Christians all over the world (of all age, race, etc...) who have indeed put their faith in Christ, but have never gotten baptized (for whatever the reason). Will they not necessarily enter the kingdom although they have fatih? Do you mean to say that although they trust in God and have walked with Christ throughout their lives, that these people might still got to hell because they didn't do the act of baptism?


2) We ask forgiveness of both God and others. If you are referring to Confession, we confess our sins to God before the priest. Does that help?

Well...I meant, is asking for forgiveness (especially from God) something that we need to keep doing...(considering we have already been forgiven by God)?


3)Is tied in with number one. We are told by Christ in the Scriptures what we must do to be saved.

You mean basically the latter passages of John 6...

i.e..."I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."


But why wouldn't you think Jesus was using metaphor here? Considering that in the earlier passages of John 6, it's made clear that what we really need to be saved is simply "faith" or "belief".

"Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life."

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

"And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."

We don't understand the whys, but Christ said, if you do not eat My flesh and drink My blood, you have no (eternal) Life within you.
As far as I know, most scholars have agreed that "flesh" or "blood", or "hunger" or "thirst", or "eating" or "drinking" are metaphors for "consuming" the message or "absorbing" Christ so to speak (through faith).....similar to what's being hinted at in that last verse I just quoted from John 6 (which is actually right before Christ begins to use words like "flesh"/"blood").

"And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."

...but again this verse, like all the others before it, is talking about having belief as the way to salvation.


I mean...do you think Jesus would spend all that time in John 6 talking about faith and belief as the only, true requirement for salvation in those verses.....and then right after actually command we have to do an act (like eating something) in order so we can be saved?

I think doing communion is a great way of honoring God and benefiting from His presence that comes there, but if you think about it...if eating bread and drinking wine is something that is actaully imperative to our salvation, why would it not be stressed quite a bit more, or mentioned a whole lot more throughout the Bible than it is (and I know it's in other places too)...especially in comparison to how much simply needing faith or belief for salvation is stressed and mentioned?


...and also this conviction (that I know many people strictly hold to) that it has to be "bread" during communion. Will a scone do? How about one of those belgian soft pretzels...a cracker? Where do you draw the line on what is bread and what isn't? How about de-alcoholized wine...or grape juice? Again, what decides the requirement? And if one gets it wrong, did they mess up their chance at getting into the kingdom? Some would be inclined to say "yes", because it indeed wasn't real "bread" or real "wine" (the way they see it).


It seems like this whole belief regarding your slavation.....about having to eat and drink something (perhaps something really specific) to be saved.....more or less hinges on an interpretation of a few verses from mainly one chapter of the whole Bible (John 6).

This kinda sound like "religion" though, doesn't it?

I thought Christianity was simply about trusting the sovereign Lord to be the one to propel you into a supernatural way of living (a Christian life).....considering it's His good will that will be done. That's what it's like for me, anyway.


These are tough questions. What are your thoughts?


(rusmeister, Oblio, whoever...)

[rusmeister]

Please bear in mind that I am a layman with no formal education - much more accurate answers can be gotten from a priest, who presumably has been through a seminary and gotten that education. Still, I'll do as best as I may.

Regarding your understanding of point 1: CS Lewis said, "There will be surprises." A lot of people with formal Orthodox Church membership may find themselves on the outside and a lot of people who never heard of it may find themselves "in". We know of the law written on the hearts of Pagan Gentiles referred to by Paul, and there are other reasons to hope that everyone will be saved. Still, Orthodoxy is not Universalist, as people have free will - the ability to reject the salvation of Christ, even unto their own deaths and maybe beyond.

Re: pt 2, I would say - Isn't it obvious that we continue to sin, and continue to be in need of God's forgiveness?

Re: pt 3, this crosses the line from seeking to understand what we believe to you telling us what we 'should' believe. I did not limit Christ's statements to what is said in John ch. 6. Neither do I suggest that He meant some things specifically metaphorically. Maybe He was talking about belief metaphorically, if we want to engage in "I personally know exactly where Christ meant things literally and where He didn't." If you pay close attention to what happened when He spoke of eating His flesh, you'll catch the part where a lot of people stopped following Him at that point, because it was 'too much' for them to believe. The Jews who heard Him certainly took it literally and Christ did nothing to correct their understanding.

Your thinking is either/or, when it's not either/or, it's BOTH. Faith AND works, not faith vs. works; faith AND the Body and Blood, etc.

I do not wish to debate, only to point out to you that there may be legitimate understandings that you simply heretofore have not thought of or become aware of. The important thing is that you seek to understand why we have these practices. Is it really something hingeing on a mistaken understanding of a few verses as it seems to you at the moment, or is there something much bigger?

Until you are in a frame of mind that seeks to understand it is not much good trying to explain things to you.

[ticker]

Hey rusmeister. Thanks...

Please bear in mind that I am a layman with no formal education - much more accurate answers can be gotten from a priest, who presumably has been through a seminary and gotten that education. Still, I'll do as best as I may.

Neat that you said this...because I've noticed Orthodoxy tends to lean a lot towards knowledge of history, theological accuracy, etc......which could suggest that the better or more you "know", the better you will "do" as a Christian.

Really though...even the least intelligent or least knowledgeable Christian will (by faith) reserve their place in heaven, because it has nothing to do with how well briefed they are on history or theology, etc...That's why faith is enough.

Regarding your understanding of point 1: CS Lewis said, "There will be surprises." A lot of people with formal Orthodox Church membership may find themselves on the outside and a lot of people who never heard of it may find themselves "in".

I hear you brother.

Still, Orthodoxy is not Universalist, as people have free will - the ability to reject the salvation of Christ, even unto their own deaths and maybe beyond.

I can't see how one could "reject" the holiness that has been given to them and that they already have.

"Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are."

Re: pt 2, I would say - Isn't it obvious that we continue to sin, and continue to be in need of God's forgiveness?

Sure we continue to sin...but we've already been forgiven for it.

If you pay close attention to what happened when He spoke of eating His flesh, you'll catch the part where a lot of people stopped following Him at that point, because it was 'too much' for them to believe.

Was it that? Was that really the last straw for them? Or was it maybe because they were getting fed up with this guy from Galilee who's now starting to make more and more of these outrageous claims abour being the Messiah and asking people to lay down their lives for Him? Just a suggestion.

The Jews who heard Him certainly took it literally and Christ did nothing to correct their understanding.

Well again...maybe they did take it literally...but Christ nowhere chases people around to follow Him, so why would He start here? I believe He just let them go because they indeed lacked faith...(the all-encompassing message of the Bible). Could you maybe explain more what you mean by this last point?

I do not wish to debate, only to point out to you that there may be legitimate understandings that you simply heretofore have not thought of or become aware of.

Ok...but debate is a good thing. I'm asking questions and elaborating on them, looking for answers that give good reason. You don't have to debate if you don't want to though.

The important thing is that you seek to understand why we have these practices.

That's why I'm here. Orthodoxy might become a big part of my life soon because I might be baptizing a baby.

Until you are in a frame of mind that seeks to understand it is not much good trying to explain things to you.

I hope you aren't assuming I'm not in this state of mind.


Thanks for your replies brother...I only pray others here will be as respectful as you are.

[Seeker of the Truth]

Just a question, but could the "One Baptism" possibly be Baptism by the Holy Spirit? And not Baptism by water?

[Oblio]

As far as I know, most [Protestant] scholars have agreed ...


Above all, Christianity is a Oriental religion, and a Mystical religion. 'Most' Protestant scholars do not realize this, and those that do are on the outside looking in. One cannot theologize without being in Communion with that which they speak.

[nutroll]

If I might be so bold, why is it that I have seen so many Protestants referring to sacraments as works? We don't see them as works at all. They are gifts from God. When I receive communion, it is not something I have done to merit salvation, it is something God has done for me and for the sake of my salvation. Is prayer also a work? How about Baptism, whether water Baptism or Baptism of the Spirit? Is a confession of faith works? Living one's life the way the church teaches takes effort, but the sacraments themselves are not work.

[Lukaris]

Just a question, but could the "One Baptism" possibly be Baptism by the Holy Spirit? And not Baptism by water?
A priest in our church said we must acquire the Holy Spirit in our lives because it bears witness. I recall this to be along the scripture of Mark 1:8 "I (John the Baptist) have baptized you with water: but He (Jesus Christ) shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." Both are part of the one baptism. I hope this is helpful.

[Oblio]

If I might be so bold, why is it that I have seen so many Protestants referring to sacraments as works?


I'll be even bolder. They know it's not works, but since they can't attack the Holy Mysteries of God from a Biblical standpoint (IOW they don't have an argument) they claim that they are works and then, in conjunction with the Protestant dichotomy of faith or works, they claim that we believe in works righteousness. IOW, it's a Strawman.

[Silentchapel]

You mean basically the latter passages of John 6...

i.e..."I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."


But why wouldn't you think Jesus was using metaphor here?
Just wanted to add... Christ said that He is the door, the way, the bread of life... However,