Still Confused

[Shannonkish]

I am still confused about MJ. I want to understand that is why I am asking questions and finding scripture.. to understand your point of view and your beliefs. I find nothing wrong with what you believe, I just want to understand it more in depth.

Please do not think that I just want to argue with you. These are real questions I have and I don't think it is right to get upset about me asking a question or even taking my point of view to understand yours.

So without further ado..

Law..

Let me make sure I have this correct... Please correct if I am wrong.
Some of the Old Covenant laws are to be followed, except those that obviously were meant for the literal land in Israel or require the Temple.

You mention that in Matthew 5:17 it says that Jesus did not come to abolish the laws.. which I agree with.

So, what do you do with this:


Does God Intend for People Today to Obey Every Command God Has Ever Given?

Circumcision (Gen. 17:9-14) - Circumcision was both a covenant and a command given by God to Abraham and his descendants (cf. 21:1-4; Lev. 12:3). God now says this command no longer applies (I Cor. 7:18-20; Gal. 5:1-8; 6:12-16; Acts 15:1-29).

Levitical priesthood (Ex. 40:12-16; 29:1-9) - Under the covenant made at Mt. Sinai, only Aaron and his descendants could serve as priests (Num. 3:10; 18:1-7; 16:40). But today Jesus is High Priest, though He was not a descendant of Aaron. This proves there has been a change in the law (Heb. 7:11-18; cf. I Pet. 2:5,9).

Animal sacrifices (Num. 15:1-6) - Throughout the Old Testament God commanded people to offer animal sacrifices (cf. Gen. 4:1-5; Lev. chap. 1-7). But today animal sacrifices have ceased to be offered because Jesus is our perfect sacrifice (Heb. 10:1-18).

Holy days (Ex. 12:1-28; 13:3-10; Lev. chap. 23) - God commanded Israel to keep various holy days, but we today should not keep them (Col. 2:14-17; Gal. 4:10,11). Note that, when God commands a certain day to be a holy day of rest, He can later change and no longer require men to keep it.

Undeniably, God has given different laws to different people at different times. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb. 13:8), but this refers to God's character and nature, not to His laws for men. The above Scriptures clearly prove that God Himself has made changes in the laws He has commanded people to keep.

Why Are These Commands No Longer Binding?
There are at least two possible reasons why we may not be required to obey a command given by God:

1. God gave some commands to specific people, never intending them to apply to all people everywhere. Obvious examples are the command to Noah to build the ark and circumcision for all male descendants of Abraham. If God intended certain commands to be limited to certain people, but we teach other people they must also obey those commands, then we are not demonstrating faithfulness to God. Rather, we are perverting His will. (Cf. Rom. 3:19.)

2. God intended some commands to be temporary.When they fulfilled their purpose, they were no longer needed so God removed them. This is true of all the examples listed above.

Please note that people have no right to annul God's laws on their own authority. Only God can decide this. If He intends a law to apply to us, we are unfaithful if we do not obey it. But we are equally unfaithful if we condemn people for not following a law, when God Himself does not require those people to follow that law.

The question before us then is what is God's intent regarding the Old Testament commands in general.

God Intended the Laws Given through Moses to Be Binding Only for the Nation of Israel.
The Ten Commands were given only to Israel.

Deuteronomy 4:1,44,45 - The Ten Commands were given to the children of Israel after they came out of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 5:1,6 - Moses spoke to Israel and gave them the Ten Commands to observe. God brought them out of the land of Egypt.

Exodus 34:27,28 - The Lord made a covenant with Israel writing on tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

1 Kings 8:9,21 - The two tablets of stone contain the covenant the Lord made with Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 4:7-13 - No other nation had such a great law as the Ten Commandments.

The Sabbath was given only to Israel.

Deuteronomy 5:15 - Israel (v1) was a slave in the land of Egypt, God brought them out and commanded them to keep the Sabbath day.

Exodus 31:13,16,17 - The sabbath was a sign between God and Israel like circumcision was (Gen. 17; Rom. 4:11). How could it have been a sign between God and Israel if He had given the same law to other nations too? Would a ring be a sign of a man's special relationship with his wife, if he gave similar rings to many other women?

Today people need not keep the commands revealed through Moses, including the Ten Commands and the sabbath, for the same reason we do not need to build arks like Noah or sacrifice sons like Abraham. God did not address these commands to us.

God Removed the Old Testament Laws Because They Fulfilled Their Purpose.
These laws were in effect throughout Israel's generations

God repeatedly told Israel that various provisions of the law were to last "throughout their generations." This is said regarding:

Genesis 17:9,10 - Circumcision
Exodus 12:14; Leviticus 23:21,31,41 - Holy feast days
Exodus 29:42; 30:10 - Animal sacrifices
Exodus 30:8 - Incense
Exodus 30:31 - Holy anointing oil
Exodus 31:13-17 - Sabbath observance
Exodus 40:15; Numbers 18:23 - Levitical priests in the tabernacle.

[Cf. Num. 15:38; Ex. 30:21; Lev. 7:36; Num. 10:8; 35:29]

All these practices were to endure for the same length of time - throughout Israel's generations. If any of them has ceased, then they must have all ceased since they were all to endure the same length of time. But we have already proved that many of them have ceased, therefore they must have all ceased.

These all continued as long as Israel's special relationship to God continued, and all would end when that special relation ended. That special relationship ended when the gospel came into effect. There is no more Jew or Gentile in God's plan (Gal. 3:28). [Cf. Eph. 2:11-18; Acts 10:34,35; 15:7-11; Rom. 10:12; Col. 3:11]

Hebrews chapters 7-10

7:11-14,18 - The law allowed priests only of the tribe of Levi, but it predicted a time when Christ would be a priest of the tribe of Judah. This meant the law would be changed (v12), disannulled (v18).

8:6-13 - These verses quote Jeremiah 31:31-34 which predicted God would make a new covenant different from the one He made with Israel when He led them out of Egypt. Christ has now enacted this new covenant, hence the first one is made old and is vanishing away (v13). Again, this fulfills God's word in the Old Testament.

10:1-18 - Animal sacrifices offered under the first covenant could not completely remove sin. Jesus' death is the sacrifice of the new covenant which can completely forgive. So Christ took away the first will (covenant) and established the second. This was done in harmony with God's will, not contrary to it (v9,10).

The law was "weak and unprofitable" in that it told men they were sinners but could not permanently forgive them (7:11,18; 8:6,7). This does not mean God made a mistake in giving the law. It had a purpose, but that purpose was temporary. When the new law came, the old had accomplished its purpose so it was removed.

2 Corinthians 3:6-11

As in Hebrews, the Old Covenant (v14) is contrasted with the New (v6). The old was a ministration of death because it proved men deserved death. Yet it came with glory. The new covenant is a ministration of righteousness and is more glorious (v9).

Note v11 - That which was with glory (the old covenant - v7) was done away so that which has more glory (the new covenant) may remain. It is not just the glory that was done away, but that which was glorious - the Old Testament itself - was done away.

Galatians chapters 3-5

As in Hebrews, the law resulted in man's being under a curse because it showed men were sinners, but it could not completely remove the guilt (3:10; 2:16). This is contrasted with salvation by faith in Christ under the gospel (1:11,12; 3:26-28).

3:24,25 - The law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Now faith has come, so we are no longer under the schoolmaster.

To be "under" a law means to be subject to it or under obligation to obey it - note 4:4,21 (cf. I Cor. 9:20,21; Matt. 8:9; Rom. 3:19.) We are not just freed from condemnation of the law, but we are free from the law itself, which was the schoolmaster. [Cf. 3:16,19]

5:1-6 - Since we are no longer under the law (5:18), circumcision no longer matters. Those who follow the old law are entangled in a yoke of bondage. Christ profits them nothing and is of no effect to them. They are fallen from grace.

Romans 7:1-6

Again the gospel is contrasted with the Old Testament ("the law"). The law showed men they were guilty of sin (3:20,23). This brought condemnation of death (5:12; 6:23), but the law could not permanently remove that guilt. (This does not prove the law was bad, but only that the people were bad - 7:7-24; cf. 7:5.) Nevertheless, God did not want all men lost, so He offered the gospel (1:16).

7:2,3 - Illustration: a woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. If she marries another man she is an adulteress. She may remarry only if her husband has died.

7:4-6 - Likewise, we are dead to the law and delivered from it, just as the woman was released from the law of the first husband (v2). Note that we are not just free from the condemnation of the law or traditions about it, but we are free from the law itself. [cf. 6:14]

Just as the woman could then be joined to a different man, we are now joined to Christ. We are not to follow both the Old Testament and the law of Christ at the same time. To do so would be spiritual adultery like the woman having two husbands at once! We have a different law, just as the woman has "another man."

Ephesians 2:12-16

Gentiles had formerly been separated from the covenant relationship enjoyed by the Israelites. By His death, Jesus made peace between Jew and Gentile. To achieve this, He had to abolish the law of commandments that was a wall of partition between Jew and Gentile. It had been given only to the Jews and thus signified their favored position. To grant favor to men of every nation, God had to remove that law (cf. Gal. 3:28; Acts 10:34,35; Matt. 28:19; etc.).

If we bind the Old Testament today, we are rebuilding the wall of partition Jesus died to destroy. That would defeat Jesus' death!

Colossians 2:13-17

This is a parallel to Ephesians 2. Christ blotted out the handwriting of ordinances and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross. So we should not allow people to condemn us for not keeping the Old Law (v16). (Again the law was "against" men in the sense that it showed they were guilty of sin but could not forgive them.)

Matthew 5:17,18

Some say this passage proves the old law is still binding since Jesus did not come to destroy it, but it would stand till heaven and earth pass away. If so, then the whole law still stands since not one jot or tittle would pass away. This includes the law and prophets (v17), even the least commandments (v19) (animal sacrifices, circumcision, etc.). Yet we have earlier proved that many things were removed. Hence this passage cannot prove the law is still in effect.

The parallel in Luke 16:17 shows that "till heaven and earth pass away" means "it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away." So it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the law to pass away "till all be fulfilled" (v18). But Jesus came to fulfill it! So the law passed away when Jesus fulfilled it. (Cf. Matt. 24:34).

A contract can be rendered void in one of two ways: illegally by destroying it (as by tearing it up), or legally by fulfilling it. For example, if you hire me to build a house for a price, it would be illegal for you or me to destroy the contract. But if we fulfilled the contract (I build the house and you pay me), it would no longer be binding.

Likewise, Jesus did not come to destroy the law (remove it contrary to its provisions). But He did come to fulfill it and replace it, completely in harmony with the provisions of the law itself. He did fulfill the law (Luke 24:44-47; Acts 13:29). Therefore, it passed away!

All Old Testament laws passed away for the same reason animal sacrifices, circumcision, etc., passed away. God gave them to accomplish a purpose for the nation of Israel. They accomplished that purpose, so God removed them.
While I agree that Jesus didn't come to abolish the law... or to do away with... Jesus fulfilled the law.

However, if we are to live under the old covenant, the covenant that was given to Israel, then what is the point of the new covenant? What is the point of Jesus dying on the cross and what is the point of him lower himself to earth?? There isn't one, because, from what you are telling me, we must still continue with the ritualistic laws of the old covenant.

If that is the case, then why are we not stoning more people for
Wearing clothing made of 2 kinds of material- say cotton and rayon (lev. 19:19)
Cutting the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard. (lev 19: 27)

What do we do with those random laws in Leviticus??

[SonWorshipper]

I am still confused about MJ. I want to understand that is why I am asking questions and finding scripture.. to understand your point of view and your beliefs. I find nothing wrong with what you believe, I just want to understand it more in depth.

Please do not think that I just want to argue with you. These are real questions I have and I don't think it is right to get upset about me asking a question or even taking my point of view to understand yours.

So without further ado..

Law..

Let me make sure I have this correct... Please correct if I am wrong.
Some of the Old Covenant laws are to be followed, except those that obviously were meant for the literal land in Israel or require the Temple.

You mention that in Matthew 5:17 it says that Jesus did not come to abolish the laws.. which I agree with.

So, what do you do with this:


While I agree that Jesus didn't come to abolish the law... or to do away with... Jesus fulfilled the law.

However, if we are to live under the old covenant, the covenant that was given to Israel, then what is the point of the new covenant? What is the point of Jesus dying on the cross and what is the point of him lower himself to earth?? There isn't one, because, from what you are telling me, we must still continue with the ritualistic laws of the old covenant.

If that is the case, then why are we not stoning more people for
Wearing clothing made of 2 kinds of material- say cotton and rayon (lev. 19:19)
Cutting the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard. (lev 19: 27)

What do we do with those random laws in Leviticus??They may not be so random as you may think , or have been taught! ;)

Welcome Shannonkish once again to the MJ forum. I realize your last foray in here must have seemed as if you had walked into a lions den and I do hope and pray that the lions are fed this time and realize that you come in peace! :)
Down Kitties! http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung0903/aktion/action-smiley-064.gif

Anyway, you ask legitimate questions, all of which I will not address but save some for others, as you have quoted a mighty lot of scripture, to which I do say Mazel Tov! :clap: It is good to see you reading and asking questions, this I believe comes from HasShem himself, as He is speaking to you and putting this on your heart, but your mind needs to understand.

Real quick I will address this, and make the remark that because of many translations of the Bible this is very often misunderstood.


If that is the case, then why are we not stoning more people for
Wearing clothing made of 2 kinds of material- say cotton and rayon (lev. 19:19)

The true translation of Lev. 19:19 is as follows:

Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

Notice the key words here, gender with diverse kind, and mingled seed or products thereof.

As you can see this has a deeper meaning when viewed as a whole ( I will try and keep it simple) , and it must be taken as such but can be broken down into three categories but retain one meaning.


1.Do not let your cattle "gender" with a diverse kind ( No inbreeding, such as making a mule - G-d did not create a mule did he? He created a horse and an donkey but man made mules, by inbreeding the two species.)


The word "Mule" can also refer to any other experiment by man of going against this rule of the Creator. I am sure you have seen hybrid plants before, while they may be beautiful, they can't reproduce themselves, and they are an attempt to duplicate what only G-d can do.

In Genesis this is defined more fully:

Genesis 1

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
___________________________________________________________

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
____________________________________________________


24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
___________________________________________________________________


Do you see the repeat here? The L-rd made a seed in each and everything He created to duplicate itself perfectly. He CREATED, for He alone is the CREATOR.


So that should explain the cattle part and sowing in the field part in the verse in Leviticus.

Now to the next part, wearing garments with mingled fibers, or is it?

The word specifically says Linen and Wool. Now Linen comes from flax (plant) and wool of course from Sheep (animal), so as you can see we have two different species here and two different days of creation for that matter. So it really isn't any old mixed fibers, but linen and wool.

Now what is the purpose of all this?

As you can probably see it is in MIXING. What was the L-rd trying to teach? Not to mix the different species together. This was, I believe, to teach them many things, a few of which are , that what he made was perfect in plants and animals and not to mess with his creation ( as many of the surrounding heathens were doing, Inbreeding can be dated way back to ancient China and Egypt ) and also to learn about separation. The main thing about Israel is that they were raised up to be a set apart people to the one true G-d. They needed to maintain this separateness, in order to bring about the L-rds Word and plan of salvation to fruition, for the whole world.


But you may say "That was then and this is now, so why should we do that?"


Same reasons, as far as the animals and plants and mixing the two, if this is done it goes against G-ds creation ( and on a bigger scale denying the true Sabbath does the same thing but that is another post ;) ). And secondly the L-rd Yeshua spoke of this as well as the apostles, we who are His are to keep separate from the world, for we are not of this world.


The L-rd speaks of the end times of separation of the sheep from the goats (which look very similar if you have ever been close to one) as well as other separations. Do you know that the word translated as church - ecclesia means "called out ones, or separate ones" a congregation, same as what Israel was called as a people in the OT ?


2 Cor

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


You can see here that many distinctions are made:

Believers --- unbelievers
Righteous --- unrighteous
Light --- darkness
Believer ---- infidel
Temple of G-d ---- idols

They are not the same kind, see?

Now to your original question: cotton and rayon. Cotton is from the cotton plant (my preferred fiber of all time:) ) but rayon is a man made synthetic so is not a fiber in the true sense of the word so that doesn't disqualify it from being worn, see? I have done an intensive study on this because I am a Artist that works in many mediums one of which is fabrics and sewing. I make my own quilts, fully out of cotton, both the fabrics, threads and even the batting. But I also design Messianic Tallits and to make them so that they are Kosher (following the Torah) I had to investigate what I could and couldn't make them from so that is why my great detail on this subject.

Maybe that wasn't so "real quick" but when the L-rd speaks to me I love to share! :clap:

[Achichem]

Well,

I am happy to see someone ask, as it is a very important question all follower of God must(should) ask. And I am sorry but at this moment I do not have the time to respond to all of your points, But I will so time later and will provide you with the replies to each one of your statements (questions).I will correct however the first mistake I see in your view of us.

We do not believe our self under the law; we do not see the law in that light at all.

This is the best scripture to explain our view of the law (of course their may be some of us who think differently):

2 Timothy 3:16-17,NKJV:[b]
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work

We see the law as a tool not a means, but this is often mis-viewed

Second thing I would like to point out:
Israel was the light for all nations ? what was given to Israel is a world standard
More about that latter.


Note this:
Do not dos:
[b]Galatians 5:19-21,NKJV:
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
the Dos:
Galatians 5:22-26, NKJV:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
Does that not sound like many of things in the laws?

But where is the holy days? Well that is quite simple, the holy days should have never have been classified as laws, there is a much bigger reason we keep them:

Leviticus 23:1-2, NKJV:
And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: "The feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.
Also note that y?shua said he was lord of the Sabbath

They are Gods holy days, many of which are not yet fulfilled.(i can explian that to if you wish)

The spirit keeps the holydays, if it(he) is my master why should I not?

As to your question about stoning people:

John 8:7, NKJV:
So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first."

If you read the old books, ever notice it says ?have their blood upon themselves?.

That means the blame it own them if we stone them, not that we should kill them especially knowing that we should love even our enemies.

Anyways I am running out of time, hope this can help you a little, and sper any new questions you may have, the questions I left un-answerd, you have to wait till I make a full reply.

God bless,
Datsar

[SonWorshipper]

Yes, Shannon, DaTsar brought up an excellent point, we do not consider ourselves UNDER the law, but others that see that we follow Torah interpret it that way. We believe that we are under Grace, and that Y'shua paid the penalty once and for ALL ( double meaning intended ;) ) But by following the Torah we know how to walk in the L-rds ways, how to be separate from the world and what is darkness and what is light.

Any that truly have Messiah, and know him, through repentance and faith have these written on their hearts weither they realize this or not that is the Ruach, the Spirit that comes to live in ones heart when they are born again of the Spirit which Messiah taught one must do to see the Kingdom of G-d . Many find that they have been following Torah and didn't realize it until they dusted off that portion of their Bible and read about it.;)

Many say the Law was "nailed to the tree" but that is a misunderstanding for Y'shua Himself said that He did not come to do away with it and that it would'nt pass away until all is fulfilled,but it is not all fulfilled yet . We are still on earth and there is still a heaven and this earth is still ruled by HaSatan, the True King has yet to reign. And until that time we still need Torah.

If you want to understand how precious Torah is, read the Psalms, especially 119 ( which has the distiction BTW of being the longest chapter in the whole Bible! ) and learn of what Israels greatest King thought of Torah.

oh and What Pray4Isrel said as well, balance is the key, not either or. And that too goes for what to follow in Torah. Except for the Levitical laws that were for the Priests and the sacrificial laws ( Y'shua the final sacrifice) and the ones pertaining to the land of Israel, then what is left should be followed. Not just some, but all , it is not a Chinese menu! :D

I have attached a graphic that I have put together to demonstrate Matthew 22:40 for better ( I hope ) clarification, please click on it to enlarge, it is here at the bottom of this post.

[Sabian]

I am still confused about MJ. I want to understand that is why I am asking questions and finding scripture.. to understand your point of view and your beliefs. I find nothing wrong with what you believe, I just want to understand it more in depth.

Please do not think that I just want to argue with you. These are real questions I have and I don't think it is right to get upset about me asking a question or even taking my point of view to understand yours.

So without further ado..

Law..

Let me make sure I have this correct... Please correct if I am wrong.
Some of the Old Covenant laws are to be followed, except those that obviously were meant for the literal land in Israel or require the Temple.

You mention that in Matthew 5:17 it says that Jesus did not come to abolish the laws.. which I agree with.

So, what do you do with this:


While I agree that Jesus didn't come to abolish the law... or to do away with... Jesus fulfilled the law.

However, if we are to live under the old covenant, the covenant that was given to Israel, then what is the point of the new covenant? What is the point of Jesus dying on the cross and what is the point of him lower himself to earth?? There isn't one, because, from what you are telling me, we must still continue with the ritualistic laws of the old covenant.

If that is the case, then why are we not stoning more people for
Wearing clothing made of 2 kinds of material- say cotton and rayon (lev. 19:19)
Cutting the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard. (lev 19: 27)

What do we do with those random laws in Leviticus??I do not Stone people because I can find no where in scripture where YAHSHUA stoned anybody. Vengence is mine saith YHWH.
I can find no where in scripture where YAHSHUA punished anybody.

As far as what do we do with the Laws? It is good to study the Torah.
Many things can be learned from Torah?
Apply what it teaches you.
Apply the Laws that you see apply to you.

Question are you a priest with preistly duties?
Do you have the temple to perform your preistly duties in?
Are you a king ? Should you keep laws that apply to kings?
Are you a judge? or part of the Legal Procedure?
Are you the one that orders the methods of punishments?
Do you own slaves? Or have employes?
Maybe you should study what it says about the topic if you say yes.
Me I am a maintance man But there are many laws that apply to me.
Food laws for example.
Law's against stealing.

Try to apply the laws that you understand apply to you , is the best way I can explain.
Some people say that there are 316 laws and you must keep them all.
Well I'm a man how can I keep a law that applies to a woman?

[SonWorshipper]

Sabian, I think you meant 613, But when the temple laws and Priestly and land laws are taken out you get about 316 or less. :)

[Sabian]

Woops Your right 613 .

The point is do what you understand.

[Sabian]

Could you imagine Everybody on Earth coming to one temple to sacrafice on passover.

[Shannonkish]

I still don't understand, perhaps I never will.

Yes, there is a balance.. I agree... however, I don't understand how you balance law and grace...

What I mean.. Law and Grace are completly different things... the Bible tells us that we are not bound by the law... yet, you are telling me that I am not bound by it, however, I still need to follow it.. logically, that doesn't make sense.

Jesus reiterated certain laws, for example 9 of the 10 commandments he reiterated... and from what I understand through what God has taught me as well as what my professor in my Christian Studies Major have taught is that the laws were not abolished, however, Jesus came to fulfill them. Yes, Jesus did not cast them to the side... however, he didn't not ask us to follow all 316 or however many laws there are either.

The purpose of grace....covers that for us. While, I find that it is wrong to go and sin because of grace.. I don't find it wrong to say that those laws in the old testament or old covenant are simply that... Old Covenant.. When Jesus came to earth and died on the cross he abolished the old covenant and created the new one.. in which we are not bound by the law.. or required to keep the law... this being said... As humans it is impossible for me to keep all 316 laws... or 20 for that matter. My nature is sin... and if I continue to live bound by the law... then I have no hope for salvation.

[SonWorshipper]

Maybe bound is an incorrect wording? How about UNDER the Penelty of Death by breaking the law? Those were what most of the Blood sacrifices were for, the breaking of the Law against the L-rd because the penalty for sin is death, we are no longer under that condemnation, the penalty.

Torah is a guide of how to walk in the way of the L-rd. If you love him you will want to walk in that way to please him. It really isn't hard to do, for if His word and laws are written upon your heart then you will not find this a burden. Y'shua even said that His yoke was easy and his burden light. He is Torah and His spirit lives in those that belong to him so that is why it is light, to follow what is in ones heart.

The world makes it hard for they are on the wide road to destruction and want to take as many with them as they can. :(

Shannon, did you look at my graphic?

[SonWorshipper]

When the devil, HaSatan was given a chance at our L-rd in the wilderness, he tempted him with hunger, but what did Y'shua respond with?


"Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of G-d"

Now what proceedeth from the Mouth of G-d? Every word of Torah. :)

[Shannonkish]

Yes, I looked at the graphic and it didn't tell me anything I didn't already know.

This still isn't making sense to me. Yes, the word of God is written on our hearts... however, I highly doubt that I can keep 316 or like I said even 20 of the laws in the Old Testament... I have a hard enough time remembering the 10 commandments, let alone trying to remember anything more than that.

It seems that having to follow more laws and whatnot makes it only even more of a burden... for me personally... I would be hard on myself if I broke a law.... and would feel more guilt and shame than anything... it would be more detrimental to me than helpful and would draw me further from God rather than closer to him... because I can't keep all those laws... and I don't attempt to. It kills me already when I sin... and to add more laws to it... I would become depressed and would begin to wonder what the purpose of Christianity is.... because I can't follow the laws and therefore will never be good enough, or earn enough rewards or whatever..

And for that matter... what is the purpose of laws if there is no consequence for them??

[Achichem]

Shalom,

Shannonkish, I was about to make my long reply, but then I read your response. You do not need me to explain that yet, it is clear that you have a logical problem with the law and grace. So I better help you get a better grasp on that before I start telling you in length the answers to the questions you gave us.


First,


What I mean.. Law and Grace are completely different things... the Bible tells us that we are not bound by the law... yet, you are telling me that I am not bound by it, however, I still need to follow it.. logically, that doesn't make sense.

Really?
Lets take the analogy of a car.
Is a set of brakes and engine completely different things? Yet would you mechanic ever ask you so do you was brakes or do you want a engine? Of course he would never ask such, because you need both for a car to run. The same is with law and grace.
Of course now you going to bring up Paul and say to be that law and grace do not work together. If you could hold off that for just a second, but keep this idea in your mind, I can explain.

Ok, now we know law justified noone, ever? Only by faith, and in so we know for a fact that law most certainly can work with faith. It was possible, so it must be possible.

Was that not the problem with the Pharisee? That fact that they introduced the law without first having faith becoming as Paul says,

1 Timothy 1:3-7, NKJV:
As I urged you when I went into Macedonia--remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.


They are the ones strayed, they do not have faith which makes it so they can not see the intent of the law.

This leads me to a bigger question, what is faith?

The simplest definition of faith is: love the lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deuteronomy 6:5-6, NKJV:
You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength "And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.
Sound like something Paul said? but he replaced the words You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength with the shorter word faith.

They are one in the same, the Pharisee and false teachers did not kneo faith hence they are desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

So what does Paul mean when he says you are not bound by the law?
He means: have faith and the laws for salvation will be written on your heart.Same as Moses.

Then once that is done, then you can, as it was intended use the written laws:
You are bound to the ones on your heart, not the written one, like circumcision it is not the physical mark that matters but the mark on the heart.

Once again we use the laws for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 3:16-17,NKJV:
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Now back to the car:
The brakes are like the written law.
The engine is like faith.

Can you start a car with only brakes and not a engine? No you will never move. You would be dead, like the Pharisee were.

Can you start a car with a engine but no brakes? Yes, and you will go and start down the path, but you will loss control. The love of many will wax cold

That is where the brakes come in, without correction there is no way to stop or slow down, or keep control of your speed, and one gets out of control. That is why we use the law, not to replace the law (faith) on our hearts, that is the momentum or life.
The flesh is the problem.

The flesh is why we need brakes, it puts obstacles on our way, it makes the ground slippery, which cause us to go off the path and to go off the path of life, is to live in sin, which is death.

So to stay in control, and live in faith one needs(should have) to use the laws, but they(the writeen laws) will not propel them, if one had just brakes, they could never travel G-ds path.

I hope that helps, are you still confused?
God bless,
Datsar


And for that matter... what is the purpose of laws if there is no consequence for them??
To keep us on the path, in the fruits of the spirit.They are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.[B]

[Shannonkish]

So... laws about what kinds of food I eat help me how? That is where I am confused... silly, pointless laws that were in effect of Israel and are no longer in effect for those under the new covenant. Why must I keep them??

This still isn't making logical sense to me.. and I suppose it isn't supposed to....

[Sabian]

Question Does the LAW save anybody in the Old Testament?
Seems they are all saved by FAITH and GRACE also Right?

[Achichem]

So... laws about what kinds of food I eat help me how? That is where I am confused... silly, pointless laws that were in effect of Israel and are no longer in effect for those under the new covenant. Why must I keep them??
Well, I cannot speak for you,
But they keep my mother and me a lot healthier (we are converts), they are even recommended to people through the medical system.

Did you know in the old days they thought that the plague management was little and unimportant, and it is what saved Europe from getting completely wiped out and is still the basis for plague control to this very day.

So I recommend trusting God enough to a least try out stuff he recommends, like clean and unclean foods, try purging your system of these things for two weeks, eat them after, and I can almost grantee that you will get a sick feeling just after eating a piece of unclean food. (at least that has been the results, so far of the people that took me up on the kosher challenge)

Just because God says somthing is not against salvation, does not mean it did not have a purpose for being said.
This still isn't making logical sense to me.. And I suppose it isn't supposed to....
What are you not getting?
That law and grace can work together?
That faith needs laws to run smoothly?
That the laws are from God?
How why you brake a law your not condemnd?
Why Paul said what he said?
What was Paul saying?
The purpose of the written law?

Here is my last question to you, I understand you have not implemented ones you see have no point, but have you implemented ones that do, ie. the Holy Days?

[Sabian]

Can you explain why YHWH gave the food Laws in the first place?

And can you explain how YAHSHUA change these LAW's?

If you can explain why the laws were given in the first place then maybe yopu can try to explain why YAHSHUA would have taken these LAW,s away.

I concider YAHSHUA my example if you can give me an example of YAHSHUA eating pork or crabs
or any other unclean food I would have to rethink my beliefs.

[SonWorshipper]

Two words, SET APART.

[fakemind]

I'm just going to sneak in this conversation real quick...


http://billygraham.org/qna/qna.asp?i=585

The above link goes to a nice page on the Billy Graham page that talks about the Old Testament laws. I think it's definately worthwhile to look at. While it's only four paragraphs, I think it makes good points.

I think Galatians chapter 3 really helps on this matter.

I have quoted verses 19-29 below, which I think are really good.

Galatians 3:19-29 (nkjv)
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



Hope this helps some,

- Jeremiah

[Shannonkish]

God gave the food laws, however Jesus and Paul both said they were meaningless in the New Testament.

[Shannonkish]

I appreciate the Billy Graham link and I offer another BILLY GRAHAM LINK on our specific topic at hand...

http://billygraham.org/qna/qna.asp?i=587

[Achichem]

Thank you for your input but that confused me, I do nto think that is a value to anyone(but what do I know)

Let me show what I mean:


Once we accept God's free gift of eternal life through repentance from sin and faith in Jesus, the moral law becomes a guide for how we live out our new life in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit
Agreed

The civil laws of Israel have passed away, since the church is not a nation. The ritual laws of sacrifice, priesthood, and Temple have been fulfilled in Jesus, and are no longer applicable to the church (see the book of Hebrews).
This is where you lose even, what the hell is he talking about.

What does he put as ritual laws? And how when something is fulfilled is it not longer applicable? Was the attempts to keep it trying to fulfill? Cause that surly not why people like David kept it.(in my eyes at least)

Agree though, the laws of sacrifice, priesthood, and Temple have been fulfilled.

However, the basic moral law of the Old Testament is clearly reflected in the New Testament guidelines for the Christian life

This is once again where he losses me? Moral law, sure, but what about health law, charity keeping, tithing, keeping the celebrations of the Lord? These are not included in either statement; he simply does not talk about them.

Many people feel they can win God's favor and have eternal life by following the old civil and ritual laws, and do enough good deeds so that they balance out their bad deeds.

I don’t know about anyone else, but it not earning favour, its following his example, this confuses me?

You cannot save yourself -- but Christ can, and He will as you commit your life to Him by faith. If you would like to make that commitment today, please see Steps to Peace With God (http://billygraham.org/believe/stepstopeace.asp).

Form steps to peace with god.

Step 1: God's Purpose: Peace and Life

God loves you and wants you to experience peace and life -- abundant and eternal.

No really, I would have never guessed but his purpose is to make us his children, not the make a sea of love.

Step 2: The Problem: Our Separation

God created us in His own image to have an abundant life. He did not make us as robots to automatically love and obey Him. God gave us a will and a freedom of choice.
Once again a true fact, with no value.

Do you not know, there is no problem; we must learn to hate sin as our father hates sin, so that we can gain life through him.

Step 3
God's Bridge: The Cross

Jesus Christ died on the Cross and rose from the grave. He paid the penalty for our sin and bridged the gap between God and people.
more like payed the debt, but the point is true.

Step 4

Our Response: Receive Christ

We must trust Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and receive Him by personal invitation.

Ya, that also entails following him! Why did he not mention that point?

Step 5
Prayer
Ya, you have to repent before that, why is repent not in here, that is kind of really important.

How to Pray:

Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner and need Your forgiveness. I believe that You died for my sins. I want to turn from my sins. I now invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as Lord and Savior. In Jesus' name. Amen.Sorry I pray in the way, lord y’shua told me to pray:

Watch here is an example of the essentials:

O holy father, Holiest is your name, let your will be done, and mine made dust in your glory… In y’shua’ name. Amen
why do i not see that, in his example how to pray?

[Achichem]

God gave the food laws, however Jesus and Paul both said they were meaningless in the New Testament.Did you read what i put, You neither answerd my questions? nor took what I said about the topic.

Health reasons, not salvation, purpose yes, effect slavation in one way if you do not even trust God on a matter of health(if you tried it then fine) then I have to wonder!

[Shannonkish]

okay.. well this seems to be turning into similar conversations and thus I will end it now.

[Achichem]

okay.. well this seems to be turning into similar conversations and thus I will end it now.

Please do not, if you sensed any hostility from me it is towards Billy Gram not you, please, you do not need to leave.

I was only pointing out you never answered my questions, which have to do with what you are still not understanding about our explanations. I only added the bit about not understanding unclean foods because I did not yet click on your link, I am responding to that now.

Please I want to find understanding; confusion is the enemy, not our friend.

If your question is yet to be answer you need to elaborate why exactly in what we are saying is not coming through as an explanation.

Now back to Billy Gram:

Does God require us to follow the Old Testament laws about not eating pork and other kinds of meat today? No, but you should anyways!

The dietary laws for Israel recorded in Leviticus, chapter 11, which include, for example, a prohibition against eating pork, were given for specific religious and, perhaps, health reasons. The New Testament, however, makes it clear that observation of these Old Testament food laws for religious reasons is no longer required in the New Testament era.Really, actually they are not black and white clear like that at all:

Mark 7:17-23, NKJV:When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?" And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

Because it does not enter his heart but his stomach = does that relate at all to health or exclusively to salvation?

Have I said one who eats un-clean is caused to : proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.

No what I said is we keep what is Good for the purpose it was intended, Health and perhaps more, not salvation!

Second: context of the incident:

Mark 7:1-5, NKJV:

Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.

Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?"

tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands = it was not even the eating of unclean food that was being discussed

Mark 7:12-13,NKJV:

no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."

this is his statement made before this, his response to the Pharisee, did it have anything to with Leviticus unclean food laws?

Mark 7:14-15,NKJV:

…Hear Me, everyone, and understand: There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.

His purpose, I man is not made unrighteous by eating unclean food. How does that make the purpose of the law, void if Jesus him self says that was never the purpose of the law.

Mark 7:19

thus purifying all foods?"

in context does this still have a clear meaning of disproving biblical truths set out by the father? Or do you think this disproves the initial point of the point and the secondary point. That tradition is pointless in this regard and that food do not have to do with salvation.

Anyway you look at it, it not that clear.

But wait thebible makes it clear when it chooses a side in the other testament of that account in Matthew.

Here is its concluding statement:
Matthew 15:1-20

These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

Further proof can be found in the account of peter in acts who says he has never eaten unwashed foods when they appeared to him in his dream,also they still represented the unclean, even to a person who witness this ordeal.

J’sus did not undo anything his father said before him!

In Acts 10:9-16, Peter was informed by God through a vision that he was not to reject the use of certain animals for food on a religious basis.

A vision represent something! If you read on Pter tells us what the dream meant,and it was not that he should eat unclean food.

The apostle Paul also writes, "For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer" (1 Timothy 4:4).

Perhaps, but:
1 Timothy 4:1-5, NKJV:

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

You should look at Talmud vs. Leviticus kosher laws, you will find out something interesting.

The Bible makes it clear that "the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Romans 14:17). There is no saving grace in either eating or not eating certain foods. We are saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; This, of course, does not mean that all animals we use for food are of equal value from a health standpoint.

Most certainly! I could not agree more!

if you disagree with somthing, please ponit out where you think I went wrong, quoting it would be the best, and would help me out a lot.

Thanks,
God bless,
Datsar

[Shannonkish]

no, really.. this is doing nothing but onfusing me even more. I am pretty convinced that the way I am living has been working out just fine... at least God hasn't convicted me otherwise... so I think MJ is not for me... if it is for you.. hey that is your thing.. but for me... it is leaglistic and pointless (no offense) and that is all it would lead to in my life. As I mentioned before I wouldn't grow closer to God, but rather further apart.

[Achichem]

no, really.. this is doing nothing but onfusing me even more. I am pretty convinced that the way I am living has been working out just fine... at least God hasn't convicted me otherwise... so I think MJ is not for me... if it is for you.. hey that is your thing.. but for me... it is leaglistic and pointless (no offense) and that is all it would lead to in my life. As I mentioned before I wouldn't grow closer to God, but rather further apart.In that case, I certainly agree you are making the right choice for yourself.

As I have been in a situation of distraction, and it is not good, not good at all.

I would however still suggest, that you try the biblical kosher challenge for a week or two, no harm in trying it out, see if it makes you feel better, and if you could PM me your results.

Good luck,
And God bless,
Datsar

[Shannonkish]

i have tried lots of things before... including the "kosher challenge" and fasting. Fasting is cool and there is much needed spiritual benefits from that... but the "kosher challenge" did nothing physically or spiritually for me.

Thanks though.

[iitb]

no, really.. this is doing nothing but onfusing me even more. I am pretty convinced that the way I am living has been working out just fine... at least God hasn't convicted me otherwise... so I think MJ is not for me... if it is for you.. hey that is your thing.. but for me... it is leaglistic and pointless (no offense) and that is all it would lead to in my life. As I mentioned before I wouldn't grow closer to God, but rather further apart.
I'm inclined to agree with DaTsar. If Torah obedience is going to hinder your relationship with G-d, then it probably isn't for you. You can only go down the path He leads you down, or at least you should only go down that path, and if you can't find a balance between law and grace, then you should probably stay where you're at.

Thanks for dropping by, maybe we'll cross paths in another forum!

Justin

[SonWorshipper]

God gave the food laws, however Jesus and Paul both said they were meaningless in the New Testament.
it is leaglistic and pointless (no offense) and that is all it would lead to in my life.


See with that kind of attitude I have to wonder if you really were interested in learning at all? You pre-suppose what following the whole Bible will do for you before you even try.

Just look at your statements above, you say that G-d gave the food laws and then he came ( Jesus and G-d are one) and said that they were meaningless. Now If I really thought that, the G-d of the Hebrew Bible would NOT be worthy of my love and my worship and I would consider that legalistic and pointless, but my G-d is the same today as He was yesterday and will be tomorrow. However when you really find out from a correct reading of the scriptures (that someone apparently has given you the incorrect interpretation thereof) you will see that the same G-d that gave them did NOT say they were meaningless, nor did he teach his disciples that at all. If you are talking of Matthew 15? The Pharasees were offended because the disciples wouldn't wash their hands, ( something that they added to the law that Jesus spoke against) He was not dis'in the Kosher laws He set down, for that would be a cruel G-d.


All I can say is if you want an impersonal, comfortable relationship, stay where you are, it is safe, but if you really want to know your creator, and His Spirit is who is leading you to inquire about us, then don't reject it. If however you just were interested and thought you might want to "try it on" to see if you like it, then you are correct, it is not for you. I can tell you from direct painful experience that MJ is not for the weak at all, I have never been under such spiritual attack in all my life and I have been a believer for over 30 years, as I have in the past year and a half. The devil knows what is right and how to please the L-rd the most and walk in his ways and he hates it when someone finds that path and will do anything he can to stop it from happening, but this just serves to bring one even closer to G-d and rely on him even more so he loses both ways.


One other thing, please don't call the way we serve the L-rd and follow in his way to walk , legalistic, for we as any believer have had the legal document that indicts us torn in half and nailed to the tree, love and grace did that. We follow the L-rds word to live the way He wants us to , not to make us righteous, but holy unto him, set apart from the rest of the world, called out and separate, we too are no longer under the law, but choose to walk in the right way because that is what the L-rd wants us to do.


Let me just ask you this, It is legal to have an abortion in this country (US) so would you do it because it is legal?


(Hypothetical) -Or, how about, it is legal now to go into a store and take something and not have to pay for it if you don't want to, do you do it?

[Achichem]

SonWorshipper,

but she also said they were that way to her, because they would distract her as she does not know how to forgive herself if she crosses even the littlest one.


In-till one learns to forgive as/like Y'shua or the Father, the laws would be burdensome, don't you think?



It would be like those who took the laws before faith; it would be no use to them.

So she, I think needs to study the basics a little longer before exploring the fullness of the father and the son, and all other teachings of the spirit.
datsar

[SonWorshipper]

I understand what you are saying ,,but does denying that there are laws to follow make them non-existant? No. So if you break one, just because you don't believe you have to follow it , does it make it non-existant? No.

Shannon has nothing to forgive herself for, for breaking a law, that is the L-rds job, and all we need to do is repent. He knows that we aren't perfect and will forgive, but that is what the laws were made for so we know how to do right. He wants us to learn of His mercy and in doing so , bring that to others, in forgiveness when they "sin" against us. The L-rd was explicit about this when the disciples asked how to pray.

Remember he would rather have mercy than sacrifices.

[Sabian]

God gave the food laws, however Jesus and Paul both said they were meaningless in the New Testament.
Can you please show me where YAHSHUA said that HIS FATHER's food Law's are meaningless in the New Testament. Thats a new verse to me.
Meaning less as in there is nothing to learn from it?
Why would FATHER YAH give a LAW that you can learn nothing from.
May I remark that it could be you just do not see the Point.
I think you need to go over these verses again where you think YAHSHUA say they are meaningless?

[Sabian]

no, really.. this is doing nothing but onfusing me even more. I am pretty convinced that the way I am living has been working out just fine... at least God hasn't convicted me otherwise... so I think MJ is not for me... if it is for you.. hey that is your thing.. but for me... it is leaglistic and pointless (no offense) and that is all it would lead to in my life. As I mentioned before I wouldn't grow closer to God, but rather further apart.
(I am pretty convinced that the way I am living has been working out just fine...)
My way is the Right way is that what you mean to say?

(But for me... it is leaglistic and pointless (no offense) and that is all it would lead to in my life.)

Can I ask what Laws your church has?
Do you have to believe in the trinity to be a member?
Do you have to be baptised to be a member?
Do you have to tithe to be a member?
Isn't that Leaglistic?
Can you fine the word Leaglistic in scripture for me?
What kinda Laws does your pastor have to obey?
Is it alright for him to be a child molister ? Where is the line?
Maybe the line is and always will be the WORD of YHWH.

I see you did not coment on the fact that YAHSHUA did not eat Unclean food.
I find it funny that Christians say What would jeses do , but fail to look at what YAHSHUA did.
Is YAHSHUA your example? Did YAHSHUA eat Unclean food?
Did YAHSHUA keep the FEAST days?

[Shannonkish]

All I can say is if you want an impersonal, comfortable relationship, stay where you are, it is safe, but if you really want to know your creator, and His Spirit is who is leading you to inquire about us, then don't reject it.

Excuse me! I have a very passionate and intimate relationship with my creator. I don't need laws to have that. There is NOTHING impersonal about my relationship with God!! I am very offended that you would say that.

Liek I said I am done with this topic. I apreciate your responses, however again, MJ is just not for me. And I realy don't need anyone on this site to tell me where my relationship with my God lies, that is between me and him.. and according to us... our relationship is good. It is constantly growing... on a daily consistent basis.. and has been for the 6 years that I have been a Christian.. and that happens to be 6 years without following the laws of the OT. And as I mentioned before, until God convicts or brings understanding to me, things with my creator will remain in the same context, and will continue growing.

[Shannonkish]

and btw, God isn't nugging my heart telling me to find out more aobut MJ... It is more along the lines of needing research for a paper. I have that information now and wrote the paper 2 days ago. So, for those of you who are convinced that the "Holy Sprirt is guiding me to MJ." you are mistaken. The Holy Spirit led me to Christianity 6 years ago and is leading me towards the Father... not towards anything else. :)

[SonWorshipper]

No, I was not convinced, that is why said what I said, and you have verified that.

At least we were honest and forthright ( not trying to hurt at all) but you were just asking for a paper for class? I doubt that your paper would present MJ for what it truly is since you say that you still do not understand. Many took the time to reply to you and help you to understand and you reply in rudeness telling us that you still don't get it but know it is not for you, but you got what you needed for your paper. Is that the kind of loving relationship you are taught?

Just one last thing, you say that the laws of the OT are null, but what do you do about Acts 15:20? do you follow what is written there for gentiles? Three of the four are Kosher laws and the other is of the Levitical laws. Verse 21 says the rest you will be taught about in synagogue, for that is where torah is read.

Do you follow that? Does your church teach Torah?

Shalom

[Sabian]

Can we see your paper or is it a secret?

And for the Record I am a child of YAH not a MJ.

I think the MJ's here on this form just accept me.

[Achichem]

and btw, God isn't nugging my heart telling me to find out more aobut MJ... It is more along the lines of needing research for a paper. I have that information now and wrote the paper 2 days ago. So, for those of you who are convinced that the "Holy Sprirt is guiding me to MJ." you are mistaken. The Holy Spirit led me to Christianity 6 years ago and is leading me towards the Father... not towards anything else. :)I sorry I took you the worng way!
But as for that paper I would love to see it.If you would not mind.

You can email it to me


I will not send a reply, I am just intrested to read it.

[yod]

What I mean.. Law and Grace are completly different things... the Bible tells us that we are not bound by the law... yet, you are telling me that I am not bound by it, however, I still need to follow it.. logically, that doesn't make sense.


Do you realize taht there are over a thousand "commandments" in the NEW Testament?


the point is this.....everyone can not be a law unto themselves. I know christians who smoke weed and justify it because they are under grace and it's not written specifically in the Bible.

The Holy Spirit should be enough conviction but it isn't apparently where there is grey areas. The Torah is a good reference for making judgements about what is right or wrong. If it is called "wrong" in the Torah, it is still wrong. The punishment has obviously changed...now our chastisement is on Him...but does that now make it "right"?

As Paul says in Romans 7;

If the law had not told me that covetousness was a sin, I would not know.

Jesus did make the New Covenant Law a "positive" instead of a "negative" when He summed up the entire Law by saying to "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you". Hope that helps...

now, in regard to the Feast Days; The main Feast days call for a holy convocation. The word used for "convocation" has a double meaning. It also means "rehearsal"

These Feast Days are rehearsals for something....how would anyone be prepared for what they are teaching if they don't go to rehearsal? You will someday be at the actual feast which we are rehearsing for right now.
See Isaiah 25 and the last chapter of Zechariah for further details....

[simchat_torah]

In the best Mr. Burn's voice I can possibly muster, I shall tint my fingers and say, "Excellent."

Nice post Yod.

[SonWorshipper]

Yes, but the title of this thread for her I believe still stands. :pray:in' for wisdom and love.

[yod]

If she is still confused she would be asking questions, right?

[blessed2]

I was blessed enough to pick up a copy of "Around Sarah's Table".
I have felt like a searcher all my life....searching and longing for a closer connection to G-d. It is because to this book that I place the - between G & d. I have been learning so much from this small book. I thank G-d for the wisdom and enlightenment He's given me thru it and the comfort of the wisdom shared. I have long wondered if I would be a better Christian is I were a Jew as well. (Christ was a jew) but what to do? I know no Jewish family to lead / teach me, afraid that I would be an offense to ask to go to synagog or that my belief in Christ would make it impossible to approach a Rabbi....
Perhaps this is the answer but how do I procede?
Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you

[Henaynei]

I have felt like a searcher all my life....searching and longing for a closer connection to G-d. ...... I have long wondered if I would be a better Christian is I were a Jew as well. (Christ was a Jew) but what to do? I know no Jewish family to lead / teach me, afraid that I would be an offense to ask to go to synagog or that my belief in Christ would make it impossible to approach a Rabbi....
Most Messianic Synagogues would welcome you. Do a search at MJAA.com or UMJC.com, also messianictimes.com. These have listings of messianic synagogues by state.

If there is none near enough to you (know that a great number of MJ drive 2 hours or more to attend a MJ service once a month or more) then you will have to rely on cyber relationships. There is a vast wealth of information on the web, not the least of which is available from the several learned, G-dly and committed members of this forum.

Remember - questions are the Jewish way!! !!;) :hug:

[blessed2]

Henaynei,

Thank you so much for the reply to my post, and the wonderful information. I am truly blessed to have accidentally (?) wondered onto this site.

[SonWorshipper]

There are no accidents, just answers to prayers ;) :)