"God doesn't want me"

[Luther073082]

So I was listening to the sermon today and apparently this week my Pastor had been talking with some guy who had just moved into his neighborhood and invited him to our church.

Well apprently the guy said "If you knew about my past you wouldn't want me at your church"

to which my pastor rightfully replied

"Well if you knew about my past, you wouldn't want me as your pastor."

But the thing is the attitude of that man isn't too far off of what I have heard from a lot of people when I talk about my faith in Christ. And I really wonder "Do people actually belive this?" Does someone actually belive that there are only so many sins that one could commit before God just has enough of you and decides, ahh thats it your finished. . . If so then they are being swayed by a very heretical human logic. The problem is that God doesn't operate on the standards of human logic. . .

Have we as the body of Christ fallen completly short in communicating effectivly that it doesn't matter what you did in the past? Do we not often enough bring up how Saul later known as Paul went around finding Christians to kill before God "knocked some sense into him" andhe became the greatest evangelist the world has ever and will ever know? And not to mention wrote half the new testimate in the process?

And if this message has been lost, then why has it been lost? Have the so called "evangelicals" gotten so wrapped up in hellfire and brimstone speeches that they have convinced the non-Christian/sitting on the fence public that God hates everyone that isn't exactly like them (the evangelicals)?? Is that really the image of God that Christianity on the whole presents to the public. And if it is then doesn't that make evangelical movement is the most dangerous thing to happen to Christianity since the use of indulgences and the prosperity gospel. (Perhaps even more dangerous)

If people really belive that, then how does one survive believing that they are doomed for hell. Trust me I've spent some time believing God would send me to hell and it was the scariest time of my life. But I've also spent the rest of my life since then knowing I deserved to go to Hell but also knowing that was going to "Get off the hook" for everything I've done and its been the most liberating time of my life.

Or does anyone think that saying something to the effect of "I've done too much to be forgiven" is just a polite way to tell you "No" or "I'm not interested"??

[TCat]

I think it is a common belief that "christians" are unaccepting of "sinners". We are not very gracious much of the time and the Jesus that others see in us is not one that invites the lost to hope in the Lord.

I mentioned Celebrate Recovery in another thread, someone at my church just the other day said to the ministry leader "THOSE people that come on Thursday nights ( the CR people) need to be asked not to litter in the parking lot."

Those people are the broken and lost and hurting and need to be welcomed and loved and be encouraged to find hope and healing in the Lord.

No, I don't think saying they could not feel welcomed by God is a polite way of saying no. I think that many who want to come fear judgement and rejection and so they look somewhere other than the church for acceptance.

[Luther073082]

I think it is a common belief that "christians" are unaccepting of "sinners". We are not very gracious much of the time and the Jesus that others see in us is not one that invites the lost to hope in the Lord.

I mentioned Celebrate Recovery in another thread, someone at my church just the other day said to the ministry leader "THOSE people that come on Thursday nights ( the CR people) need to be asked not to litter in the parking lot."

Those people are the broken and lost and hurting and need to be welcomed and loved and be encouraged to find hope and healing in the Lord.

No, I don't think saying they could not feel welcomed by God is a polite way of saying no. I think that many who want to come fear judgement and rejection and so they look somewhere other than the church for acceptance.

When the only true acceptance they will find is in Jesus.

I do remember going to church the first time when God told me to, basically arguing with him the whole way saying things like "What am I doing? This place is for all those great people who served God their whole lives, not people like me."

Thats why it pains my heart to see people who present an unwelcomeing or hateful image to the one true faith. When I see someone holding up a sign like "God hates so and so" I don't even know what to do. People wear crosses on their necks and yell and scream about Jesus but turn his message of love into one of hate.

[Luther073082]

I should also add that this attitude kept me away from the one true faith a lot.

So many Christians turned their faith into a holier then thou art and "I'm better then you" But the problem was they really where not any better then me and quite often they where worse then me. (In terms of behavior)

My aunt had a problem of doing that sometimes because my parents didn't raise me in the faith and I was an atheist. She often would use that to infer that she and her family where better then others outside of the faith (namily me). Fortunutly I believe God corrected her in this way, which may have something to do in no small part her own daughter having a baby with a convicted felon.

But I hate holier then thou art attitudes and being that I'm imperfect when I do get occasionally get them God wacks me into another zipcode. God has had patience in me and I learned that lesson pretty easily. (Compaired to some others) I just pray that he teaches other members of the body of Christ the same lesson.

[Radiata]

I also can't stand it when people say that they have sinned too much and feel that they are outside of God's grace. This reminds me of a story. I don't remember if it is true or not, but what happens is that there is a pastor who grieves over a sin that he committed in the past. The years go by, and he still can't forgive himself of what he has done. He prays to God over and over again, hoping to receive forgiveness but he doesn't feel that he has obtained it. Well eventually, there was a woman that came to this pastor and claimed that she could speak to God in her dreams. Naturally the pastor was skeptical, and decided to test it. He told the woman that he has a terrible sin and that she should ask God what that sin was. The woman then goes away, and later comes back to the pastor saying that she had spoken with God since their last visit. "Well, what did God say my sin was?" He asked. The woman replied, "I forgot."

There is little point in me continuing because I don't know how to combat those extremists who proclaim 'turn or burn', other than going individually to each person and telling them that those people that shout bloody damnation on the street corner are just the one's that make the biggest splash in the water. Therefore, they are seen more often than the more reasonable and correct representative of Christianity.

[Studeclunker]

Luther and Radiata, you both make valid points and I would add 'Lutheran Pietism' to that list as well. Several decades ago I mentioned to an old pastor that I hated going to church and dealing with the hipocrites that seemed to populate the congregation.

He sighed and replied, "Well, it is a trial. You could however just spend your Sundays with these people now or eternity with them in Hell. It's up to you."

Then he gave me a wry smile, patted me on the shoulder and turned away.

I stood there completely shocked that a pastor would say such a thing. He wandered off to have a doughnut and coffee and left me to ponder such a thing. I've never forgotten it. This gives me considerable patience with the hipocrites.

As to the statement in the OP, I can just say this to them, "Have you committed Murder, Rape, Incest, Theft, or Adultery? There is documentated proof that God has forgiven all these offenses and still been willing to work with his servants. This is a God who is able and willing to meet you where you are and redeem you with his own blood and body."

Much of the idea of not being able to live up to God's standard has to do with the philosophies of the World. The largest religious institutions including the Muslims, Buddists, and Hindus, to name a few, all operate on works righteousness. This is the World's system. One must Achieve salvation the old fashioned way, one must earn it. This is attractive to the old Adam in us. Hence, so many people feel they're beyond salvation. A lot of hooey, still Ol' Scratch is very good at this game, having as it were, several thousand years of practice.;)

[Luther073082]

Luther and Radiata, you both make valid points and I would add 'Lutheran Pietism' to that list as well. Several decades ago I mentioned to an old pastor that I hated going to church and dealing with the hipocrites that seemed to populate the congregation.

He sighed and replied, "Well, it is a trial. You could however just spend your Sundays with these people now or eternity with them in Hell. It's up to you."

Then he gave me a wry smile, patted me on the shoulder and turned away.

I stood there completely shocked that a pastor would say such a thing. He wandered off to have a doughnut and coffee and left me to ponder such a thing. I've never forgotten it. This gives me considerable patience with the hipocrites.

As to the statement in the OP, I can just say this to them, "Have you committed Murder, Rape, Incest, Theft, or Adultery? There is documentated proof that God has forgiven all these offenses and still been willing to work with his servants. This is a God who is able and willing to meet you where you are and redeem you with his own blood and body."

Much of the idea of not being able to live up to God's standard has to do with the philosophies of the World. The largest religious institutions including the Muslims, Buddists, and Hindus, to name a few, all operate on works righteousness. This is the World's system. One must Achieve salvation the old fashioned way, one must earn it. This is attractive to the old Adam in us. Hence, so many people feel they're beyond salvation. A lot of hooey, still Ol' Scratch is very good at this game, having as it were, several thousand years of practice.;)

My pastor talked to someone who had left the church for that reason. Said that they couldn't stand all the hypocrites there.

Pastor Dennis just said "Oh well its a great place for hypocrites."

If you think about it though we are all hypocrites. We believe in a standard of right and wrong that we never uphold in its fullness, therefore making us all hypocrites.

It just worries me though that if people really belive they too bad of a past for God then we really have completly and utterly failed at spreading the true message of Christ which is forgivness and in many ways "The past doesn't matter"

[BigNorsk]

This is an area that the Lutheran understanding of Law and Gospel is particularly important.

I just cringe when I hear someone talking about someone who is a hellfire and brimstone preacher as someone who preaches the "full gospel".

And really the very idea that in preaching that the gospel must predominate over the law kind of protects us from the stereotypical hellfire and brimstone preaching, where the law and damnation predominates.

It also saves us from the idea that the law will save the person.

But it doesn't stop us from sliding into pietism and even legalism at least for a time it should, but people confuse the marks of the church and they confuse what is law and what is gospel and then it's off to the races at least for awhile.

One other thing it helps is it helps us understand that when you have someone who is in mortal fear of their sinfulness and it's results that we don't need to keep hammering away with the law, but rather we offer the pure gospel and it's salvation and release from their terror.

It gets a little tougher in a corporate setting where there are people in different places listening and that's why both law and gospel needs to be presented with the gospel dominating.

Done rightly it is wonderful, it walks us down the narrow path. We don't fall off on the side of lawlessness, we don't fall off the side of bondage to the law.

Many other groups have no such traditions or customs or teachings to help them. Indeed many seem to almost hold that as a badge of honor. When they fall off, there seems to me to be a tendency to stay off the path at least for a longer time.

You can actually find legalists that can trace their legalist roots back to the 1800's and the holiness movement. Right on up through Prohibition and onward to women better not wear pants and better keep their hair fixed just a certain way. Once they confused the church as being those who practiced such things and the law is considered the gospel it is a very difficult climb back for them. Many that they turn to as authorities would actually push them right back down.

It's interesting for example to witness the outright warfare that is present in the Seventh Day Adventists. The liberals pushing the gospel and the conservatives pushing back to the law. That's one quite visible current example.

But other groups are gripped in similar battles. Often those who reject the legalism are simply shown the door.

In many places though, the congregation as a whole is quite solid. There are often though a few people who go about spreading the attitude that others aren't very welcome and certainly should be condemned. For some reason some of those people seem to make a serious effort to seek out any newcomers and try to drive them off. I've never figured it out why.

Marv

[Luther073082]

I went to a non-denomination church once for a bible study. Called themselves full gospel. . . They kept calling me Brother Kirk. . . (Kirk is my first name)

At the end of the bible study the leader was like "I feel like God is telling me that you have something to say." I said no that I didn't have anything to say but I did have something to say. . .

I WANTED to say "You're insane!" and "I'm officially afraid of you right now."

They didn't spend more then a minute in the bible, prefering to talk about things like demonic cats and witches. Oh yeah and their divine revelation that caused the bible study to start 45 min late. . . It must have been important because it couldn't wait, and it took God nearly an hour to communicate it. . .

[ctay]

The church I'm a member of right now, the one the pastor left for another call. I hadn't been much lately been going here and there and everywhere. Its a young small church and they one sunday morning during the adult bible study which they were studying the problems of the early church. Someone had said how they go up to people who come to church for the first time and really welcome them warmly. The guest Pastor said that young, small church's welcome people but after the people join if they do that then a wall goes up and they don't include them in things inside the church. He said you can't do that and you have to include people in things.

[Radiata]

That's another thing that many extremists do wrong. I was wrong to think this at one point, but I once came to the conclusion that people become Christians out of fear. It is this fear of Hell that turns people to God. I couldn't be more wrong. The problem with this mentality is that this has brought about a conditional love. God doesn't want that. He instead wants us to see Him for his unconditional love for us. Therefore, we come to know God because of his love for us, without fear of death. You teach God's love, and not the consequences of sin. For if you do that, you are teaching that Christianity is nothing more than a way out of God's righteous punishment, when in fact, it is a way for us to become servants and live according to the law and not by our own desires.

[Luther073082]

That's another thing that many extremists do wrong. I was wrong to think this at one point, but I once came to the conclusion that people become Christians out of fear. It is this fear of Hell that turns people to God. I couldn't be more wrong. The problem with this mentality is that this has brought about a conditional love. God doesn't want that. He instead wants us to see Him for his unconditional love for us. Therefore, we come to know God because of his love for us, without fear of death. You teach God's love, and the consequences of sin. For if you do this, you are teaching that Christianity is nothing more than a way out of God's righteous punishment, when in fact, it is a way for us to become servants and live according to the law and not by our own desires.

A lot of people (especially atheists) are absolutly stunned when I say that honestly if I knew that God was going to send me to hell and there wasn't anything I could do about it, I wouldn't change a thing.

I think the people who put in a minimum committment may be doing it to get out of hell but the people who really work hard for Christ do it just because it comes natural with their love for God.

The church I'm a member of right now, the one the pastor left for another call. I hadn't been much lately been going here and there and everywhere. Its a young small church and they one sunday morning during the adult bible study which they were studying the problems of the early church. Someone had said how they go up to people who come to church for the first time and really welcome them warmly. The guest Pastor said that young, small church's welcome people but after the people join if they do that then a wall goes up and they don't include them in things inside the church. He said you can't do that and you have to include people in things.

Thats one thing we are always looking at in our church. The pastor set the tone and sent it down to the staff and the staff sent it down to the lay ministers and that is basically that we have to in everything we do because of how large of a church we are, to try and create a small church feel inside of a large church. Its a never ending process but I'd like to say we are pretty successful as we have a very united church of over 1000 baptized members and 400 people attending service every sunday.