Honest question

[Luther073082]

I have an honest question for you.

My gf is not a Lutheran, but is a Christian. Would you think it was wrong of me to possibly in the future marry her and due to that leave the Lutheran church for another church? Her's or a "comprimise church"??

I've seen the church she like's doctrine and its very little like the Lutheran church. They even allow the laity to speak the words of institution for the Eucharist apparently.

[Edial]

I have an honest question for you.

My gf is not a Lutheran, but is a Christian. Would you think it was wrong of me to possibly in the future marry her and due to that leave the Lutheran church for another church? Her's or a "comprimise church"??

I've seen the church she like's doctrine and its very little like the Lutheran church. They even allow the laity to speak the words of institution for the Eucharist apparently.
But what is the denomination?
If it is a non-denominational, do they have a web-site or a statement where they present what they believe in?

Thanks,
Ed

[Zecryphon]

I have an honest question for you.

My gf is not a Lutheran, but is a Christian. Would you think it was wrong of me to possibly in the future marry her and due to that leave the Lutheran church for another church? Her's or a "comprimise church"??

I've seen the church she like's doctrine and its very little like the Lutheran church. They even allow the laity to speak the words of institution for the Eucharist apparently.
Are you really interested in a "mixed" marriage? :P

[Luther073082]

But what is the denomination?
If it is a non-denominational, do they have a web-site or a statement where they present what they believe in?

Thanks,
Ed

http://www3.calvarychapel.com/library/taylor-larry/text/wcct.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvary_Chapel

Based mostly off of that and what she has told me. She has told me the words of institution are often spoken by the congregation and not by the pastor.

I also noticed no apparent doctrine on the presence of Christ at the Eucharist.

[RadMan]

Happy Birthday Zec--mine was today :)

[RadMan]

In addition, our churches have church boards as required by most states which vary in size depending on the size of the church, and which usually are made up of mature Christian businessmen who can advise the pastor with respect to the business operations and decisions of the church such as property management and investments. At Calvary Chapel, church organization is de-emphasized, and only the organization that is needed to run the church is instituted. The pastor guides the church as he is lead by the Holy Spirit, and we trust God to put pastors where He wants them to be.Looks like the pastor controls the purse strings. Were have I seen that before.

[Luther073082]

Looks like the pastor controls the purse strings. Were have I seen that before.

That and the pastor is above even the church council and they have no centralized organization so diciplining a pastor is nearly impossible.

In my church the church council and the synodical bishop are both over my pastor which provides oversite.

[Jim47]

Just answer this, how much false teaching is acceptable, then prove your answer with scripture.

[DaRev]

My 2 cents worth...

In a marriage, the wife is to submit to the husband. That does not mean in servitude, but rather it means she is to allow him to provide for his wife and family. As the husband, you are to provide for her as Christ provides for the Church. One of the things you as the husband are to provide is spiritual care. It is up to you to make sure that the spiritual needs of the family are met, which means that you need to make sure that the church you attend and are active in is orthodox in their teaching and practice. She, as the wife, should be helpful and supportive in that, but not demanding.

My 2 cents.

[Jim47]

My 2 cents worth...

In a marriage, the wife is to submit to the husband. That does not mean in servitude, but rather it means she is to allow him to provide for his wife and family. As the husband, you are to provide for her as Christ provides for the Church. One of the things you as the husband are to provide is spiritual care. It is up to you to make sure that the spiritual needs of the family are met, which means that you need to make sure that the church you attend and are active in is orthodox in their teaching and practice. She, as the wife, should be helpful and supportive in that, but not demanding.

My 2 cents.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[RadMan]

Just answer this, how much false teaching is acceptable, then prove your answer with scripture.


My 2 cents worth...

In a marriage, the wife is to submit to the husband. That does not mean in servitude, but rather it means she is to allow him to provide for his wife and family. As the husband, you are to provide for her as Christ provides for the Church. One of the things you as the husband are to provide is spiritual care. It is up to you to make sure that the spiritual needs of the family are met, which means that you need to make sure that the church you attend and are active in is orthodox in their teaching and practice. She, as the wife, should be helpful and supportive in that, but not demanding.

My 2 cents.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Zecryphon]

Happy Birthday Zec--mine was today :)
Happy Birthday to you as well then! :-)

[Luther073082]

My 2 cents worth...

In a marriage, the wife is to submit to the husband. That does not mean in servitude, but rather it means she is to allow him to provide for his wife and family. As the husband, you are to provide for her as Christ provides for the Church. One of the things you as the husband are to provide is spiritual care. It is up to you to make sure that the spiritual needs of the family are met, which means that you need to make sure that the church you attend and are active in is orthodox in their teaching and practice. She, as the wife, should be helpful and supportive in that, but not demanding.

My 2 cents.

I was thinking that but I really didn't want to start off a marriage by forcing her through the submission rule to attend a church she doesn't like or want to attend. . .

I have no doubt she will submit as she has told me thats what she intends to do as a wife. And I would use that authority if it became absolutly necessary, but it just doesn't seem like something I want to do on the first day of marriage or anything like that.

Personally I'm still hoping to get her to like the Lutheran church of her own accord. She hasn't been yet because we are in LDR and she works afternoon to nightime on the weekends including Sat/Sun so its not easy for her to get up for church sometimes.

I'm hoping to get a job in CA to be with her and she's hoping to get a job that gives her more regular hours and is less dangerous. Hopefully once I get out there we can attend a Lutheran church together and maybe she'll like it of her own accord.

Edit: Also I was wondering, a lot of you have said that you wouldn't attend a church if you don't agree with its doctrine 100%. The problem is there are no churches who's doctrines I agree with 100%. Now I can probably get about 95% if I find a friendly LCMS church (Of which I've only been to 1 of 6) however I there are no churchs which I agree with 100% on doctrine? Its not like I can just say "No one agree's with me 100% so I just shouldn't go to church."

[DaRev]

Edit: Also I was wondering, a lot of you have said that you wouldn't attend a church if you don't agree with its doctrine 100%. The problem is there are no churches who's doctrines I agree with 100%. Now I can probably get about 95% if I find a friendly LCMS church (Of which I've only been to 1 of 6) however I there are no churchs which I agree with 100% on doctrine? Its not like I can just say "No one agree's with me 100% so I just shouldn't go to church."

You will find the LCMS congregations in CA a bit more liberal than in the mid-west. Even then, though, they are quite different from the ELCA.

[Luther073082]

You will find the LCMS congregations in CA a bit more liberal than in the mid-west. Even then, though, they are quite different from the ELCA.

For right now finding one with a little bit more lax communion policy (Not necessarily fully open but not overly restrictive) that works well with other churchs would be fine by me.

But I'm not sure it would be that different, based off the LCMS church I saw in Canton, OH and how the pastors at the chapel (both LCMS) taught.

[DaRev]

For right now finding one with a little bit more lax communion policy (Not necessarily fully open but not overly restrictive) that works well with other churchs would be fine by me.

But I'm not sure it would be that different, based off the LCMS church I saw in Canton, OH and how the pastors at the chapel (both LCMS) taught.

The saltwater district churches are more lax than those in the heartland.

[Luther073082]

The saltwater district churches are more lax than those in the heartland.

Yeah everything is more lax out there. My GF bought me this button up shirt she thought I would look cute in. So I put it on and when I show it to her I have it tucked in. And she's like "no no no you don't tuck it in! Pull it out." And I said "But only slackers wear their shirts untucked" . . . Welcome to California . . .

Thats why I was thinking that in all likelyhood there was a good chance that I couldn't attend an ELCA church. If the liberal/conservative thing holds true for ELCA churchs in CA then the ELCA churchs out there would probalby be way out of their rockers.

[LilLamb219]

I'm in a mixed marriage...it's very difficult at times, I'll tell you. But, I will not leave for a pasture that has some obvious false teachings. I visit my husband's church and he visits mine, but I'm not leaving Lutheranism.

If you start thinking it's ok to belong to another church that has doctrine you know is not biblical...do you suppose that further down the line you might start straying from the truth as you know it? I mean, could you see yourself starting to believe some of the things that is preached because you've stop hearing what's true year after year?

The reason I ask is because for the longest time after I got married, I didn't want to go to my church I belonged to at the time (ELCA) and went to my husband's church. I didn't realize how much of an influence it made on me until years later when I started looking back into Lutheranism.

[Luther073082]

I'm in a mixed marriage...it's very difficult at times, I'll tell you. But, I will not leave for a pasture that has some obvious false teachings. I visit my husband's church and he visits mine, but I'm not leaving Lutheranism.

If you start thinking it's ok to belong to another church that has doctrine you know is not biblical...do you suppose that further down the line you might start straying from the truth as you know it? I mean, could you see yourself starting to believe some of the things that is preached because you've stop hearing what's true year after year?

The reason I ask is because for the longest time after I got married, I didn't want to go to my church I belonged to at the time (ELCA) and went to my husband's church. I didn't realize how much of an influence it made on me until years later when I started looking back into Lutheranism.

I understand that, but on the other hand I don't really want to go to a seperate church from my wife. And then you've got the whole problem of children and what church will they be baptized in and what church they will be confirmed in. . . Ugg that would be a mess.

[RadMan]

Luther073082 these "Honest Question" that you have posted here on our forum these last couple of months seem more like statements that you believe in and not really questions. Do you really want answers or do you just want to express your opinion and not take the advice of people with more experience, age and knowledge? They are some very fine minds on here.

[DaRev]

I'm glad I don't have to worry about this. If I get married, my wife would either have to be Lutheran or would have to convert. :D

[Luther073082]

Luther073082 these "Honest Question" that you have posted here on our forum these last couple of months seem more like statements that you believe in and not really questions. Do you really want answers or do you just want to express your opinion and not take the advice of people with more experience, age and knowledge? They are some very fine minds on here.

How am I not taking advise? What advice have you given me that I've completly shot down?

And this is the first thread that has been entitled "honest question" from me on the Lutheran forums.

I'm glad I don't have to worry about this. If I get married, my wife would either have to be Lutheran or would have to convert. :D

Yeah but I think you have a better case given that being Lutheran is your livelyhood and what ultimatly puts food on your table.

I'd like to keep us in a Lutheran church when/if (we arn't engaged but we intend on marrying) we get married, but I really don't want to put my foot down on it if I can avoid it.

[LilLamb219]

I'm glad I don't have to worry about this. If I get married, my wife would either have to be Lutheran or would have to convert. :D

Trust me, if I had to do it all over again, I'd marry a Lutheran. Life would be easier.

[LilLamb219]

Luther, you don't have to put your foot down hard, but encouraging her to attend your church (to visit...edited to add this) is something that shouldn't be very difficult. She should want to know more about you and what you believe. Don't you want someone who is interested in those things about you?

[Luther073082]

Luther, you don't have to put your foot down hard, but encouraging her to attend your church (to visit...edited to add this) is something that shouldn't be very difficult. She should want to know more about you and what you believe. Don't you want someone who is interested in those things about you?

Yeah she's definatly going to visit a Lutheran church in the future. She's going to my church when she visits for thanksgiving. She might even sit in on my sunday school class.

I'm just worried that because the differences are so stark she might just utterly reject it. She already has the impression that we are more interested in being "religious" then having a relationship with God.

Which I can see how she would get that impression given the church she's grown up in. Even though its not correct.

[DaRev]

I'd like to keep us in a Lutheran church when/if (we arn't engaged but we intend on marrying) we get married, but I really don't want to put my foot down on it if I can avoid it.

You have some time to figure this out before the wedding bells ring.

It can be a very stressful, yet important, subject. Some questions to consider...
How important is your faith to you?
How important is your faith to her?
How important is her faith to you?

Religious differences are a major cause of divorce in the US, believe it or not.

[Radiata]

Hmmm, my older brother has a Catholic girlfriend. She's kind of strange, and doesn't seem to be a wholehearted Christian. What I mean to say is, that her faith is passive and doesn't act on it. Sorry to ask this question in your thread Luther##, but what advice do you have for my brother?

[Luther073082]

You have some time to figure this out before the wedding bells ring.

It can be a very stressful, yet important, subject. Some questions to consider...
How important is your faith to you?
How important is your faith to her?
How important is her faith to you?

Religious differences are a major cause of divorce in the US, believe it or not.

I think the better question is how important is doctrine to me.

Attending a different church doesn't change one's faith in Christ, only the doctrine which one professes.

If she wasn't Christian, I wouldn't even consider marrying her, but I am really not under any kind of thinking to not marry her or dump her due to doctrinal differences between our churchs.

Religiously we will have to get on the same page of course, cause actually we are close to the same page monitarily which is great news.

[JimfromOhio]

My 2 cents worth...

In a marriage, the wife is to submit to the husband. That does not mean in servitude, but rather it means she is to allow him to provide for his wife and family. As the husband, you are to provide for her as Christ provides for the Church. One of the things you as the husband are to provide is spiritual care. It is up to you to make sure that the spiritual needs of the family are met, which means that you need to make sure that the church you attend and are active in is orthodox in their teaching and practice. She, as the wife, should be helpful and supportive in that, but not demanding.

My 2 cents.

Yes... but we men always forget our responsibility. I don't know how many men understands or even follow 1 Peter 3:7. That verse is important and very helpful in my own marriage. Open communication between my wife and I are our # 1 priorty. I will always to my best to submit to my wife's feelings and wishes. Spiritual intimacy in marriage is about partnering with God. In a Christian marriage relationship, God is at the top and my wife and I are at opposite ends on the bottom. As the two of us grow spiritually, we will move upwards together toward God. Engaging in a personal relationship with God is the first and most important step in initiating spiritual intimacy. Submission to me means "Live with your wives" The term translated "live" means "to dwell down with," being closely aligned, being completely at home with. The little word "with" calls for close companionship, deep-down togetherness. Husbands are the ones who should be cultivating an in-depth partnership with our mates. This word "dwell" speaks of intimacy. It is letting somebody else into your life. In every marriage, there needs to be verbal, emotional, social, intellectual, and spiritual togetherness. The word for "live" means to "dwell together or to be at home with." Peter is telling husbands that they are responsible for the "close togetherness" in the relationship. Providing a good living should never become a substitute for sharing deeply in life. The husband is to be sensitive to the needs of the wife. Know your wife. The success of your dwelling with your wife will be in direct proportion to your knowledge of her. Knowing your wife includes those things that others don't and won't know. Her deep fears and cares. Her disappointments as well as her expectations. Her scars and secrets and also her thoughts and dreams. It calls for a sensitive spirit, a willingness to be involved, to listen, to communicate, to care. The husband is exhorted to live with his wife "with understanding."

My role as a husband is to lead, protect and encourage my wife. :thumbsup:

[JimfromOhio]

I think the better question is how important is doctrine to me.

Attending a different church doesn't change one's faith in Christ, only the doctrine which one professes.

If she wasn't Christian, I wouldn't even consider marrying her, but I am really not under any kind of thinking to not marry her or dump her due to doctrinal differences between our churchs.

Religiously we will have to get on the same page of course, cause actually we are close to the same page monitarily which is great news.

Christ don't choose denominations but choose us. :)

[Confess]

I have witnessed a few mixed marriages and so far I think LilLamb is the longest surviving marriage I know.

It always ended up with the children that made or broke the marriage. One parent wanting the child to go to his church, the other wanting the child to go to her church.

What message do we teach our children when we tell them that my church doctrine is more correct then your mother's who also believes that her's is more correct?

It is called apathy.

Apathy leads to no faith in most people. They grow up with the struggle and never can figure out which doctrine is best so they just give up.

All I can say is for you to think about what kind of family life you desire. Do you desire to be truly one with your spouse in all things? Do you want to have days where you and your wife and children can all sit together and talk about God without getting upset because your wife believes in a doctrine which you KNOW is false?

In the end, God is the one who must leave the marriage since He would end up being the source of contention.

Trust me on this. It is hard enough without faith getting in the way. After the first two years of marriage, she begins mistrusting you based on a few mistakes you have made and you begin seeing faults in her that your love covered over in the early years of your relationship. You and her will get irritated at these things and have to learn how to forgive and cope with these irritants, then you want to add on top of that disunity in faith?

Look at it this way.

Think about everything you and her don't have in common. Think about those things as if they were money that you owed to the bank.

poor housekeeping = owing $5,000
bad cooking = owing $10,000
disunity in doctrine/faith = owing $500,000

If it is stressful to be in debt a few thousand dollars, think about how stressful it is to be in debt hundreds of thousands of dollars.

That kind of stress burdens a relationship daily making it harder and harder to communicate.

While it is true that some families have stayed together in the long run, I would hope that if she is truly a Chrisitan woman, she would first consider her vocation in submission to her husband.

A woman who meets with a man, falls in love with him should always understand that she takes on not only his name, but his faith as well.

[Confess]

But false doctrine, the Bible says is like Gangrene to your faith. It will eat it up and kill it.

[RadMan]

I think the better question is how important is doctrine to me.

Attending a different church doesn't change one's faith in Christ, only the doctrine which one professes.

If she wasn't Christian, I wouldn't even consider marrying her, but I am really not under any kind of thinking to not marry her or dump her due to doctrinal differences between our churchs.

Religiously we will have to get on the same page of course, cause actually we are close to the same page monitarily which is great news.Yep---agreeing on how to spend the money is definitely more important than the doctrinal difference between religions. :scratch::sigh::scratch:

[RadMan]

And woman who meets with a man, falls in love with him should always understand that she takes on not only his name, but his faith as well.Wish that had worked in my marriage. Even among Lutheran of the same synod there are differences We were both supposedly LCMS. Finally found out that she was liberal and I was conservative.

[DailyBlessings]

Human doctrines should not be set against a marriage ordained by god, if you ask me. Is it the truly the will of the Lord that you two be joined? That is the only question worth asking, and playing doctrinal bingo will not give you the answer to it. Pray, and do as your heart and the Holy Spirit instruct you.

[Luther073082]

Yep---agreeing on how to spend the money is definitely more important than the doctrinal difference between religions. :scratch::sigh::scratch:

Actually I think it is so long as both members have faith in Christ.

And statistically more marriages are ended by money problems then religious problems.

So what do you think that if I can't convince her to accept Lutheranism I should dump her.

You are aware that isn't going to happen right?

[Confess]

Human doctrines should not be set against a marriage ordained by god, if you ask me. Is it the truly the will of the Lord that you two be joined? That is the only question worth asking, and playing doctrinal bingo will not give you the answer to it. Pray, and do as your heart and the Holy Spirit instruct you.
So you believe that your god is a human doctrine?

To say that you believe in a god is a doctrine. Doctrine is God's not man's. All that he teaches us about him is called doctrine which man cannot claim to hold. The Bible says that false doctrine will kill your faith.

If you really believe that doctrine is of man and not of God, then you have declared that what you believe is of your own making. That means you have made yourself a false religion.

[RadMan]

Human doctrines should not be set against a marriage ordained by god, if you ask me. Is it the truly the will of the Lord that you two be joined? That is the only question worth asking, and playing doctrinal bingo will not give you the answer to it. Pray, and do as your heart and the Holy Spirit instruct you.
I would say listen to what the Bible says. Your heart might be talking instead of God

[DailyBlessings]

So you believe that your god is a human doctrine?I believe that the foolish quibbles that divide denominations are human doctrines- not faith itself, nor God.

[Confess]

Wish that had worked in my marriage. Even among Lutheran of the same synod there are differences We were both supposedly LCMS. Finally found out that she was liberal and I was conservative.
Ever heard the song, "Getting to know you"? :)

It's hard when your young to fully know a person. I just got lucky and married a man who had nearly no faith at all but was struck with conviction by God out of the blue which led us to the Lutheran church.

But even still, we both have such horrible backgrounds of abuse and neglect, that we both struggle HARD to maintain. It gets pretty rough at times. It is only by the grace of God that we have been married for 17 years.

[DaRev]

I believe that the foolish quibbles that divide denominations are human doctrines- not faith itself, nor God.

This is true, which is why I am Confessional Lutheran, No human doctrines. Sola Scriptura.

[RadMan]

I believe that the foolish quibbles that divide denominations are human doctrines- not faith itself, nor God.Well lets all join the One Universal Church and I can marry a Mormon and Jehovah's Witness since we are all just quibblers about faith.

[Confess]

I believe that the foolish quibbles that divide denominations are human doctrines- not faith itself, nor God.
God does not divide, that is true. But what does divide is when human reasoning tries to unsin sin. What divides denominations tends to be the doctrine of justification, how we are saved and the doctrine of sin, who we are in Christ. Those are not man made doctrines. You over simplify the problem.

[Luther073082]

I believe that the foolish quibbles that divide denominations are human doctrines- not faith itself, nor God.

I only agree with you to some extent on this. I've seen some pretty crazy doctrines such as the prosperity gospel that there is no two ways around it is clear heresy.

On the other hand I think sometimes people go absolutly batty about minor differences, and Lutherans are probably among some of the worst offenders.

Well lets all join the One Universal Church and I can marry a Mormon and Jehovah's Witness since we are all just quibblers about faith.

Those don't even fall within the realm of Christianity IMO though.

[RadMan]

Ever heard the song, "Getting to know you"? :)

It's hard when your young to fully know a person. I just got lucky and married a man who had nearly no faith at all but was struck with conviction by God out of the blue which led us to the Lutheran church.

But even still, we both have such horrible backgrounds of abuse and neglect, that we both struggle HARD to maintain. It gets pretty rough at times. It is only by the grace of God that we have been married for 17 years.I wasn't young. I was 60 when I got married again. You were talking about yourself I guess. :)

[JimfromOhio]

I believe that the foolish quibbles that divide denominations are human doctrines- not faith itself, nor God.

Denominational doctrines make denominational members.

We are Christians because have Christ in us. :)

[Confess]

I only agree with you to some extent on this. I've seen some pretty crazy doctrines such as the prosperity gospel that there is no two ways around it is clear heresy.

On the other hand I think sometimes people go absolutly batty about minor differences, and Lutherans are probably among some of the worst offenders.



Those don't even fall within the realm of Christianity IMO though.
Why do you call it an offence? If God convicts a man why be disrespectful and call him an offender?

The only true offenders are those who call themselves faithful and yet reject God's truth/doctrines.

I guess for some the truth is foolishness.

[Confess]

I wasn't young. I was 60 when I got married again. You were talking about yourself I guess. :)
I assumed. :( sorry.

[Luther073082]

Why do you call it an offence? If God convicts a man why be disrespectful and call him an offender?

The only true offenders are those who call themselves faithful and yet reject God's truth/doctrines.

I guess for some the truth is foolishness.

Because there are a lot of denominations who also claim to follow the bible completly and they have a different way of interpreting scripture. I'm not going to argue on their behalf but I'd be interested in seeing LCMS Lutherans and Southern Baptists have a debate about who is the heretic. . .

Really from my readings of the scripture I don't belive that the apostles ever had doctrines nearly to the complexity of any Lutheran church. So for them a false teaching was probably a lot more simple and clear then what we see now. Paul sent Timothy to deal with false teachings but if you read the scriptures around it the false teachers where clearly men who wanted to re-emphasize the Monastic laws on the Christian faith. To where "Yeah we have Christ, but we still have to sacrifice animals to God."

[Confess]

Because there are a lot of denominations who also claim to follow the bible completly and they have a different way of interpreting scripture. I'm not going to argue on their behalf but I'd be interested in seeing LCMS Lutherans and Southern Baptists have a debate about who is the heretic. . .

Really from my readings of the scripture I don't belive that the apostles ever had doctrines nearly to the complexity of any Lutheran church. So for them a false teaching was probably a lot more simple and clear then what we see now. Paul sent Timothy to deal with false teachings but if you read the scriptures around it the false teachers where clearly men who wanted to re-emphasize the Monastic laws on the Christian faith. To where "Yeah we have Christ, but we still have to sacrifice animals to God."
The reason why is because they (the Apostles) were the teachers and the people harkened their every word for they knew nothing but what was told to the through the Holy Spirit using the Apostles.

The Baptists do not believe in man's sinful condition which leads to a huge multitude of errors that they had to conjure up to fit their error. This also means that Christ did not die for the whole world, he only died for those who are accountable for their sins.

These are simple things really. Justification and your sinful condition. Put your girlfriend's doctrine to that test. There cannot be two ways we are saved, there cannot be two versions of sin. Either she believes that even an infant is sinful or she doesn't. This would mean a huge source on contention between you and her if the baby died.

This would pit you, your faith, your wife and her faith against each other. Did the baby go to heaven? Do all babies go to heaven? We could have baptized him, but her faith wouldn't allow it OR her faith believed in "Christening", is that the same thing? What do I believe? What happened to my child? etc.

[Luther073082]

The reason why is because they (the Apostles) were the teachers and the people harkened their every word for they knew nothing but what was told to the through the Holy Spirit using the Apostles.

The Baptists do not believe in man's sinful condition which leads to a huge multitude of errors that they had to conjure up to fit their error. This also means that Christ did not die for the whole world, he only died for those who are accountable for their sins.

These are simple things really. Justification and your sinful condition. Put your girlfriend's doctrine to that test. There cannot be two ways we are saved, there cannot be two versions of sin. Either she believes that even an infant is sinful or she doesn't. This would mean a huge source on contention between you and her if the baby died.

This would pit you, your faith, your wife and her faith against each other. Did the baby go to heaven? Do all babies go to heaven? We could have baptized him, but her faith wouldn't allow it OR her faith believed in "Christening", is that the same thing? What do I believe? What happened to my child? etc.

Well I don't belive unbaptized children go to hell as we have already determined a child can experience God even in the womb. However I agree with you on origial sin and baptism.

They don't baptize infants at her church.

The thing with her though is, she doesn't really care about doctrine at all. She basis her choice off of what feels right and not what is taught.

[Confess]

Also. You always use this argument that other denomination say they believe in the inerrant Bible.

OK.

Lots of people call themselves Christian, right.

Take the true story of Emily Rose. She claimed she was a Catholic Christian.

We know that Christians cannot be tormented with demons because the Holy Spirit lives in them. As Luther puts it in the hymn "A Mighty Fortress" it says, "one little word can fail him". This is to say that Jesus concures the Devil, just his name alone.

Yet, Emily was possessed by demons.

This means that we don't rely on what people call themselves, we rely on their confession of faith which is loaded with doctrines.

Emily evidentally had so many false doctrines that the Holy Spirit did not live in her.

[Radiata]

Although I don't necessarily disagree with you Confess, but that seems entirely too unlikely and without evidence. We can't make that claim until we know the facts which we don't.

I don't think the facts are out there though.

[Confess]

Well I don't belive unbaptized children go to hell as we have already determined a child can experience God even in the womb. However I agree with you on origial sin and baptism.

They don't baptize infants at her church.

The thing with her though is, she doesn't really care about doctrine at all. She basis her choice off of what feels right and not what is taught.
OK, so you deny original sin that automatically seperates us from God.

While I believe that my child will go to heaven if he dies before birth (because I have eaten the body of the Lord and drank his blood in faith which is given to my child in the womb AND I believe as the Bible says that God will bless the children of the faithful to the third and fourth generation of those who love him ~ these are all doctrines).

I do not believe that a child will inherit eternal life from an unbelieving family as the Bible says that God will curse those who hate him (I forget how many generations it said he would curse them).

Now, the bigger issue is that she believes in nothing but what her sinful heart wants to believe.

A person who relies on themself has themself for a god.

[DailyBlessings]

A person who relies on themself has themself for a god.What a statement! God is sovereign over all, whether they realize it or not.

[JimfromOhio]

2 Timothy 2:19 "Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are His, " and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

We don't.

[Luther073082]

Also. You always use this argument that other denomination say they believe in the inerrant Bible.

OK.

Lots of people call themselves Christian, right.

Take the true story of Emily Rose. She claimed she was a Catholic Christian.

We know that Christians cannot be tormented with demons because the Holy Spirit lives in them. As Luther puts it in the hymn "A Mighty Fortress" it says, "one little word can fail him". This is to say that Jesus concures the Devil, just his name alone.

Yet, Emily was possessed by demons.

This means that we don't rely on what people call themselves, we rely on their confession of faith which is loaded with doctrines.

Emily evidentally had so many false doctrines that the Holy Spirit did not live in her.

Ugg that means that I would have to watch that movie first. Or at least read up on it.

I don't know anything about the Emily Rose case to base that argument on.

She did ask me once why a person needed to be called and ordained to speak the words of institution at communion and I basically explained that the reason we do that is that person is trained to place the proper amount of respect and preside over the sacrament and the sacrament is too important to have the laity preside over.

Any other reasons?

[RadMan]

Well I don't belive unbaptized children go to hell as we have already determined a child can experience God even in the womb. However I agree with you on origial sin and baptism.

They don't baptize infants at her church.

The thing with her though is, she doesn't really care about doctrine at all. She basis her choice off of what feels right and not what is taught.Boy do you have your hands full. A Lady that bases her doctrine on what feels right and a boyfriends that believes in what he believes is right and rational and not what the Bible says. Have fun.

[Confess]

What a statement! God is sovereign over all, whether they realize it or not.
Even my former ELCA pastor said this to me.

He said the thing you think on most is your god.

Now if a man relies on himself to know God, then he places himself above Scripture. He denies his sinful condition by thinking himself to know more then those whom God has put over him. He becomes his own shepherd, his own authority etc.

How do you think all these false religions are made? From people who go outside of Scripture to create their own faith.

[Confess]

Ugg that means that I would have to watch that movie first. Or at least read up on it.

I don't know anything about the Emily Rose case to base that argument on.

She did ask me once why a person needed to be called and ordained to speak the words of institution at communion and I basically explained that the reason we do that is that person is trained to place the proper amount of respect and preside over the sacrament and the sacrament is too important to have the laity preside over.

Any other reasons?
I gotta go to bed. :(

I would love to get into that one. Maybe in a few days. I have an appointment with the baby doctor tomorrow morning, the baby is due any day now and my eldest son has his first football game that I am supposed to waddle to.

Also, I heard the Packers are playing. :)

[Luther073082]

OK, so you deny original sin that automatically seperates us from God.

While I believe that my child will go to heaven if he dies before birth (because I have eaten the body of the Lord and drank his blood in faith which is given to my child in the womb AND I believe as the Bible says that God will bless the children of the faithful to the third and fourth generation of those who love him ~ these are all doctrines).[/quote]

You are twisting this again, I said I don't belive a child automatically goes to hell, that doesn't mean I don't belive original sin seperates us automatically from God. What I do belive is that God provides grace to all those who do not outright reject him, which includes babies as they have no capability to outright reject him.


I do not believe that a child will inherit eternal life from an unbelieving family as the Bible says that God will curse those who hate him (I forget how many generations it said he would curse them).

Now, the bigger issue is that she believes in nothing but what her sinful heart wants to believe.

A person who relies on themself has themself for a god.

Ok first of all please take it easy I do love this woman so lets not make accusations like that.

She doesn't formulate a God for herself, she belives in Christ which is not a God anyone forumulated but the true God. Now being incorrect on the particulars of salvation and justification do not mean that a person is formulating a God for themselves.

My mom formulates her own God that doesn't get to tell her how to live her life. Keri, worships the true God which she knows saved her from her own sins through Christ. Being incorrecton on the particulars does not change that she worships the same God as we do.

[Luther073082]

This is what I mean by Lutherans getting too tied up in doctrine though. Somehow having the wrong views on salvation and justification turned into forumulating your own God.

Trust me I know people who formulate their own God, they are my parents. My mother belives that there is a God and oddly enough belives that I have more access to him then most (because of my devotion) but at the same time belives that this God does not have the right to tell her how to live. And also does not accept the scriptures as God's word.

I'm just saying that if you are that tied up that you belive that the only right thing for me to do is either convince or make her become Lutheran or leave her for a Lutheran then I think you are a little tied up in your doctrine and while I want to convince her to become a Lutheran and I'm considering making her if I become convinced that her church is harmful, I adamently refuse to leave her if she does not want to be Lutheran.

[RadMan]

This is what I mean by Lutherans getting too tied up in doctrine though. Somehow having the wrong views on salvation and justification turned into forumulating your own God.

Trust me I know people who formulate their own God, they are my parents. My mother belives that there is a God and oddly enough belives that I have more access to him then most (because of my devotion) but at the same time belives that this God does not have the right to tell her how to live. And also does not accept the scriptures as God's word.

I'm just saying that if you are that tied up that you belive that the only right thing for me to do is either convince or make her become Lutheran or leave her for a Lutheran then I think you are a little tied up in your doctrine and while I want to convince her to become a Lutheran and I'm considering making her if I become convinced that her church is harmful, I adamently refuse to leave her if she does not want to be Lutheran.
If this wasn't so sad it would be funny.

[DaRev]

This is what I mean by Lutherans getting too tied up in doctrine though. Somehow having the wrong views on salvation and justification turned into forumulating your own God.

The doctrine of justification and salvation is the doctrine upon which the Church stands or falls. It is EXTREMELY important, which is why Lutherans are so adamant about it.

[Luther073082]

If this wasn't so sad it would be funny.

Then what do you belive the right thing for me to do in this situation is? I'm curious . . .

[RadMan]

Then what do you belive the right thing for me to do in this situation is? I'm curious . . .None of my business. It's gonna be your choice no matter what we say. You've already made up you mind before you even posted your "Honest question." All these words you've said hasn't changed our minds and they certainly haven't changed yours so................You just wasted a couple of hours of our time.

[Luther073082]

None of my business. It's gonna be your choice no matter what we say. You've already made up you mind before you even posted your "Honest question." All these words you've said hasn't changed our minds and they certainly haven't changed yours so................You just wasted a couple of hours of our time.

Well actually no I havn't made up my mind other then the fact that I'm not dumping her for it. And actually I'd like to know if you think its wrong of me to continue.

You are really regressing things here. . .

[RadMan]

Well actually no I havn't made up my mind other then the fact that I'm not dumping her for it. And actually I'd like to know if you think its wrong of me to continue.

You are really regressing things here. . .Yep -- I'm gonna regress so much that I'm going to bed.

[DaRev]

Happy belated B-day, Radman!!

(You said it was your birthday, right?)

[Luther073082]

Yep -- I'm gonna regress so much that I'm going to bed.

No you are regressing things with your slanders of me. Which have been a problem before, not something I want to see picked back up again.

[dinkime]

she needs to be open about attending your church and learning more about what you believe and why (not just attending once and maybe going to your SS class) -- just as you have been open and learning about her church and beliefs

if she is not open, that is a problem, no matter how much you love her...she needs to trust in you and your beliefs to lead a new family to stay in faith with God, if she cannot trust you or be open about it, the marriage may very well not last

i do know a lot of families where mom is catholic and dad is Lutheran -- they have all dealt with how to raise their children in church very differently -- my cousins had their daughter baptised as a baby, she had 1st communion in a catholic church and a confirmation in the lutheran church (not sure about the catholic confirmation) -- she was exposed to both and allowed to study and see for herself...another family, the father brought all the kids to the lutheran church from birth up.....another family has 2 boys, mom has one at her church, dad has one at his....MAKE THOSE DECISIONS BEFORE THE MARRIAGE, not just before the kids!

[DaSeminarian]

Happy belated B-day, Radman!!

(You said it was your birthday, right?)

He's gonna have a good time.
I can hear the Beatles music now.;)

[Orion567]

Wow Luther073082, I cannot even comment on this one as much as I might like. I will just pray for you. May God bless You and her in your relationship.

[RadMan]

Happy belated B-day, Radman!!

(You said it was your birthday, right?)Yep--thanks J. Happens every year at the same time. Weird :)

[LilLamb219]

Happy Birthday, Radman!

Luther, you asked what we believe about this and the majority of us have told you to approach with caution...great caution. We speak from experience and don't want anyone else to have to endure hardships that we have had.

[KEPLER]

You will find the LCMS congregations in CA a bit more liberal than in the mid-west. Even then, though, they are quite different from the ELCA.
Nice generalization there, DaRev. Got any empirical evidence to back that up?! ;)

Let's see, Kieschnick, moderate-liberal evanjelly, St. Louis

Rosenbladt, Confessional arch-conservative, West Coast

Hmmm...:P

Luther######, where in CA? I might have a recommendation or 3.

K

[KEPLER]

Yeah she's definatly going to visit a Lutheran church in the future. She's going to my church when she visits for thanksgiving. She might even sit in on my sunday school class.

I'm just worried that because the differences are so stark she might just utterly reject it. She already has the impression that we are more interested in being "religious" then having a relationship with God.

Which I can see how she would get that impression given the church she's grown up in. Even though its not correct.

I think what you fear here is a VERY common criticism that evanjellies have of Lutheranism...BUT...

If you spend some time learning what the Lutheran doctrine of vocation means, you'll understand just how Lutherans are "on fire for Jeeeezus" (as them other folks say! ;))

For them, being on fire for the Lord means Bible Study every night, only having Christian friends, getting rid of your secular music, getting a job in ministry.

But as Lutherans we see our WHOLE lives as ministry, not just the times we can "set aside for God." A plumber who does his job to the BEST of his ability, who charges a fair price for his services, who treats his employees respectfully and pays them a fair wage, just as much serves the Lord as a Pastor does.

If you don't have it already, get yourself a copy of Gene Veith's The Spirituality of the Cross. He has a good section in that on vocation.

K

[LilLamb219]

A realtor might say Location, Location, Location, but a Lutheran says Vocation, Vocation, Vocation ;)

[LutheranChick]

I only agree with you to some extent on this. I've seen some pretty crazy doctrines such as the prosperity gospel that there is no two ways around it is clear heresy.

On the other hand I think sometimes people go absolutly batty about minor differences, and Lutherans are probably among some of the worst offenders.



Those don't even fall within the realm of Christianity IMO though.

Just to say something about 'minor differences' - our church left the old Norwegian Synod some 100 or so years ago over 'minor differences'. Today our synod, the ELS, and the old synod we left - which has become the ELCA, are barely considered the same religion.

Also, in choosing a church, please keep in mind that your utmost concern should be for your wife's soul - you should want the two of you to attend a church who's main concern is teaching the truth of the Bible. The more 'watered down' the church's teachings are, the weaker one's faith can become. I would suggest that the two of you meet with a Pastor. And don't dismiss WELS and ELS - they have churches in CA also. I realize you have some disagreements, but again, I really think you should meet with a Pastor personally and learn about the church you are interested in - maybe if a Pastor personally expained the Synod's stances on different things you don't agree with, you may see them in a different light.

JMO, and God Bless you in your search for a church.:pray:

[DaRev]

Nice generalization there, DaRev. Got any empirical evidence to back that up?! ;)

You're right. It is a generalization based upon experience. It is commonly known that the salt water districts are a bit more left of the theological fence than the heartland.

[Confess]

You're right. It is a generalization based upon experience. It is commonly known that the salt water districts are a bit more left of the theological fence than the heartland.
I agree with DaRev here.

I am a former saltwater distric person from the east and have family on the west and could only find one good church on the west to recommend to them, but it was too far to travel.

My husband was always frustrated at work because the men he worked with were genuinly interested in attending a church that practiced the Lutheran doctrine that he spoke about. The problem was that there were never any churches for my husband to point to for these people to attend.

So in general: Yes, it is a liberal area.

In specifics: Yes, it is a liberal area.

[RadMan]

(Ezekiel 22:30 NIV) I looked for a man among them who would build up the wall and stand before me in the gap on behalf of the land so I would not have to destroy it, but I found none.

[Luther073082]

Thought I should tell you guys to forget it because she dumped me. . .

I was sure and apparently it was infatuation for her.

I'll be off CF for a while to deal with this, because she is on CF and I really can't talk to her right now if I want to move past this. You can PM if you want I can read and reply to those but I can't really hang around the public forums much.

[DaSeminarian]

Thought I should tell you guys to forget it because she dumped me. . .

I was sure and apparently it was infatuation for her.

I'll be off CF for a while to deal with this, because she is on CF and I really can't talk to her right now if I want to move past this. You can PM if you want I can read and reply to those but I can't really hang around the public forums much.


I am sorry that you got dumped. I hope that you can come back and have some good conversations with us.

Scot

[dinkime]

i hope you come back as well, i can tell you want to learn more

i am sorry she did that to you

[KimLCMS]

Sorry to hear about your break up Luther073082. I'll be praying for you.
Kim

[QuiltAngel]

Luther
I am so sorry to hear this news. Will keep you in my prayers.

[BigNorsk]

Well Luther,

You are one relationship closer to finding the right woman.

Learn from it, don't beat yourself up too much, but it is a good time for some honest appraisal of yourself. If there's something that should be changed, use this to fuel the drive to do so.

While it feels so personal, realize it often is not. If you have certain criteria in a wife and some woman doesn't meet those, it's not that you are saying they are horrible if you don't marry her. And it's the same for you, you were just not a match. Don't get depressed and think you are some loser that no woman would ever want. That's just not the case, it's just going to take a bit longer to find the right one.

Marv

[C.F.W. Walther]

Sorry to hear that happened.

Yep Luther you need to reflect back on yourself and do a deep self analysis of what happened. Having the last word might have had something to do with it.

[DaSeminarian]

While I realize that we all mean well here, don't y'all think maybe you should just say "I'm sorry" and let it at that. A guy doesn't need people giving him advice when he's going through this. Give it at least a couple of weeks. Would you want someone giving you this advice if it had just happened to you?

Let's give him some time to process this before we pontificate on what's better out there. Let him get through whatever hurt he's feeling and then when he asks for it give him your two cents.

It is very patronizing to have someone giving false empathy (and that is what it is) when you are going through a loss like this. She was evidently important enough for him to have considered marrying her. Let him grieve for a bit.

Scott

[BigNorsk]

I don't see where giving someone the thoughts to get him started working through his grief and trying to protect him from his own thoughts is "false empathy." Often in our sorrow in such a situation, people think things that are not true about themselves. They take a breakup extremely personal when, even when the other might try to make it personal, it really isn't, it's more a matter that one or the other decides that marriage is just not going to happen.

Even when the person says you are a horrible example of humanity and they'd prefer to kiss the creature from the black lagoon than you, it really translates more often to "I am not willing to face the difficulties of a long distance romance," or some other such thing, which usually is more of a reflection on the person doing the breaking rather than the other.

Often though it is really very seldom the cause of a breakup, we do indeed have things that shouldn't be. We often let them slide for years, during a relationship, our energies are often funneled into that relationship. Full singleness can be a blessing where we can take the time to work on ourselves.

Sure a breakup is sorrowful. It is after all like the death of a relationship. A death of something that might have been. And often the marriage that never happened gets to live in our memories as a perfect marriage, one that doesn't actually have to deal with the reality that our eventual marriage will be.

Biggest mistake after a breakup is not taking some time to oneself but just jumping into another. The person for whom a breakup is painful and takes the time to work things out by them self is actually in a much better position to have a good marriage than the person who just jumps immediately into another relationship.

It just doesn't feel that way when we are young and going through it. It's easy to look at the person who is immediately into another relationship and think that is further evidence that there is something wrong with us, when that's not the case. It's easy to think everyone is happy when actually many are not happy at all.

Anyway, Luther, if you read through this you seem a thoughtful and considerate guy, concerned about things that many of your peers are not. That can actually make it harder to find someone, but when you do, you will tend to have a much superior marriage over them. You are just looking for a woman that isn't just one of the crowd either, and that takes some time. You don't just want a pretty body, though I'm sure you wouldn't mind that for a short time either. But really you are looking for a mind and you can't see that at first.

Marv

[DaSeminarian]

I don't see where giving someone the thoughts to get him started working through his grief and trying to protect him from his own thoughts is "false empathy." Okay, maybe "false" was a wrong word choice. But no one who is grieving over a loss wants to hear people start in on what they need to do. Let them grieve for a bit.

Often in our sorrow in such a situation, people think things that are not true about themselves. They take a breakup extremely personal when, even when the other might try to make it personal, it really isn't, it's more a matter that one or the other decides that marriage is just not going to happen.


What I am saying is don't give him advice unless he asks for it. It is unsolicited and I personally hate it when people do it to me.


Even when the person says you are a horrible example of humanity and they'd prefer to kiss the creature from the black lagoon than you, it really translates more often to "I am not willing to face the difficulties of a long distance romance," or some other such thing, which usually is more of a reflection on the person doing the breaking rather than the other.


Does it really matter who did the breaking up? He is still hurting and all he needs is "I'm sorry this is happening, I will pray for you."

Often though it is really very seldom the cause of a breakup, we do indeed have things that shouldn't be. We often let them slide for years, during a relationship, our energies are often funneled into that relationship. Full singleness can be a blessing where we can take the time to work on ourselves.

Sure a breakup is sorrowful. It is after all like the death of a relationship. A death of something that might have been. And often the marriage that never happened gets to live in our memories as a perfect marriage, one that doesn't actually have to deal with the reality that our eventual marriage will be.

Biggest mistake after a breakup is not taking some time to oneself but just jumping into another. The person for whom a breakup is painful and takes the time to work things out by them self is actually in a much better position to have a good marriage than the person who just jumps immediately into another relationship.

It just doesn't feel that way when we are young and going through it. It's easy to look at the person who is immediately into another relationship and think that is further evidence that there is something wrong with us, when that's not the case. It's easy to think everyone is happy when actually many are not happy at all.

Anyway, Luther, if you read through this you seem a thoughtful and considerate guy, concerned about things that many of your peers are not. That can actually make it harder to find someone, but when you do, you will tend to have a much superior marriage over them. You are just looking for a woman that isn't just one of the crowd either, and that takes some time. You don't just want a pretty body, though I'm sure you wouldn't mind that for a short time either. But really you are looking for a mind and you can't see that at first.

Marv

Marv, you do what want. I am suggesting that it might be better to leave it and him alone other than to express your sympathy and wish him well. I know what I don't like when I am going through a loss and that is people telling me "It was all for the best" or "now you can get on with your life" kinds of sayings. It doesn't help and is often annoying even though you mean well.

Wait for someone to ask your advice to give it. or ask them if it is alright for you to give advice to them on a particular subject, but don't just throw it at them.

[synger]

I'm sorry to hear about your breakup, Luther###. I came to this thread late because I've been travelling this week (and away from the computer).

My prayers are with you. May the God of all comfort give you solace as you move past this relationship, and may He guide you and give you wisdom as you grow toward your next one.

When it comes up again, one of the best things my husband and I did before we married was to go through the workbook "Before You Say I Do (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=76307&event=CFN)." It brought up a lot of questions we hadn't thought about -- not just things like budgeting and household chores, but also things like what were your important family traditions when you were growing up, and what are your priorities for child-rearing. And of course, what are your expectations for building a Christian home, from church attendance to giving to home devotions to service. It really started some conversations that we might not have even considered until a situation got heated.

[C.F.W. Walther]

Pearls of wisdom

Go flatten her tires :)

http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/image/girl-changing-tire.jpg

[KEPLER]

While I realize that we all mean well here, don't y'all think maybe you should just say "I'm sorry" and let it at that. A guy doesn't need people giving him advice when he's going through this. Give it at least a couple of weeks. Would you want someone giving you this advice if it had just happened to you?

Let's give him some time to process this before we pontificate on what's better out there. Let him get through whatever hurt he's feeling and then when he asks for it give him your two cents.

It is very patronizing to have someone giving false empathy (and that is what it is) when you are going through a loss like this. She was evidently important enough for him to have considered marrying her. Let him grieve for a bit.

Scott
What Scott said.

Luther######. I;m really sorry,man. Been there. Had a GF dump when when I was your age. Little did she know that I had a diamond ring in my pocket and that I planned on going down on one knee that very night.

Devastating.

[Luther073082]

What Scott said.

Luther######. I;m really sorry,man. Been there. Had a GF dump when when I was your age. Little did she know that I had a diamond ring in my pocket and that I planned on going down on one knee that very night.

Devastating.

I've decided I can post here cause Keri doesn't post here. That had to hurt Kepler, thanks for sharing that.

I'm learning a bit more and apparently she was unhappy about several things but didn't see fit to tell me that she was unhappy about them. Then we had talked over some other issues and she agreed to them and now apparently doesn't like the agreement now.

I guess she decided that we where too different, and we are different, but some of those things about her are things that I liked. So apparently she watched Pride and Prejudice and decided that even though I had all the qualities she wanted in a husband that she didn't love me. Do girls really make decisions about their lives based off of a movie? I guess it was just the opposite for me, I loved her, but she didn't hit on all the qualities that I thought I wanted.

The weird thing is that I'm not sure the qualities that what I want are the qualities that I need. I dated a girl a while back with all the qualities that I wanted and I really didn't much care for her other then as a friend. So I meet Keri, and I love her and she says she loves me and maybe I thought that was a sign from God that maybe he knew more about what I needed then I did. And I thought maybe I don't need someone just like me but someone different from me to compliment me.

So I don't know, do I look for someone that is dissimilar to me or someone that is just like me.

Oh well, probably not the best time to start looking again. Way too early for that.

I guess its good that she told me before I moved cross country. Thanks for your support and prayers everyone.

Pearls of wisdom

Go flatten her tires :)

http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/image/girl-changing-tire.jpg

No thanks, she kind of looks like a bimbo and I know I'm not into the bimbo type. :-P

[C.F.W. Walther]

What Scott said.

Luther######. I;m really sorry,man. Been there. Had a GF dump when when I was your age. Little did she know that I had a diamond ring in my pocket and that I planned on going down on one knee that very night.

Devastating.Yep very devastating. I was past that stage and already engaged at 18 and I did something stupid (imagine that) and she threw the ring back at me. She was my first love and it was hard to get over. So Luther you havn't been alone on any of this. We've all had some contact in this area. My wife left me after 14 months about 10 months ago and it about killed me. I'm not as young as I used to be.

[BigNorsk]

People, not just women, make decisions based on movies all the time. Same for books, magazines, about anything you can name. Many people seem to be very plastic, constantly changing, it's like there is no base, no foundation. Very frustrating, they tend to be rather destructive as they go through life hurting those around them.

People also do a whole bunch of things on feelings. Untrustworthy feelings. Even if they would never do something in another area of their life based on feelings. What's worse, they often equate their feeling with God. Making their feelings superior to what God has revealed. Effectively, they make themselves their god.

I found it to be interesting that you would make a distinction between what you want in a woman and what you need. What would be some of the differences as you see them?

Marv

[Confess]

I've decided I can post here cause Keri doesn't post here. That had to hurt Kepler, thanks for sharing that.

I'm learning a bit more and apparently she was unhappy about several things but didn't see fit to tell me that she was unhappy about them. Then we had talked over some other issues and she agreed to them and now apparently doesn't like the agreement now.

I guess she decided that we where too different, and we are different, but some of those things about her are things that I liked. So apparently she watched Pride and Prejudice and decided that even though I had all the qualities she wanted in a husband that she didn't love me. Do girls really make decisions about their lives based off of a movie? I guess it was just the opposite for me, I loved her, but she didn't hit on all the qualities that I thought I wanted.

The weird thing is that I'm not sure the qualities that what I want are the qualities that I need. I dated a girl a while back with all the qualities that I wanted and I really didn't much care for her other then as a friend. So I meet Keri, and I love her and she says she loves me and maybe I thought that was a sign from God that maybe he knew more about what I needed then I did. And I thought maybe I don't need someone just like me but someone different from me to compliment me.

So I don't know, do I look for someone that is dissimilar to me or someone that is just like me.

Oh well, probably not the best time to start looking again. Way too early for that.

I guess its good that she told me before I moved cross country. Thanks for your support and prayers everyone.


Wow! I am so sorry to hear this!

Had I known she was on this site, I would never had said anything in fear that she might view what was said behind her back.

I guess that is a touchy situation to be honest. When you are in a relationship, no matter how it is going, it may not be a good idea to talk about it in an open forum.

Not that she decided to get out of the relationship due to what was said here, but in general, it may be a good idea to consult a pastor or other books instead.

I am sorry. I should have said that to begin with.

As for dealing with searching for a woman to marry. Look at this woman on this blog here: http://ccostello.blogspot.com/

She is the marrying type. Looks at her goals, what she wants to be, how she views family etc. She is the kind of gal I wish I was! I am learning a lot just from her attitude on life. My life has made me a harder woman then I wish I was, more cynical, less of a listener and nurturer etc.

Look at this woman. She is amazing. She is working very hard RIGHT NOW at a young age to be a good wife, mother, housekeeper and friend.

I don't know about her faith, but if she has that as well then she is a perfect woman in my eyes!

She makes me feel warm inside, women are supposed to do that. She wants to fulfill her vocation as wife and mother to the best of her ability. Women are supposed to desire that. She doesn't want to follow the world in all of it's wild and unreasonable ways. She wants purity in her life, respect and love.

When a woman is all that, what man wouldn't want to marry her?

The reason is because she desires to complete her husband, not be different. Differences, while amusing and cute at times, cause problems, headaches and even heart-aches.

Look for a woman who will complete you. She will believe what you believe or is willing to learn and believe. She will be there as your back-up, your resource, your helper, your place of refreshment.

You will want to lead her in all things healthy and helpful to her. You will want to provide for her, keep her safe and be tender to her when she is stressed or troubled.

When you find that woman who desires you, you will know it because her whole thought process will be about you rather then being consumed with her goals in life.

She is a hard find. Most of us women wish we were "that" kind of woman, or we wish that we had married "that" kind of man. But as sin has it, you won't. But at least you will have an idea what to look for.

I still recommend those books on the marriage counseling thread you started, I think they would be very helpful for you in the future. :)