Tridentine/Latin Mass

[Loki]

I expect this one will raise Prot's hackles, though everyone is welcome to respond, of course.

Prot states that the lack of liturgy in the vernacular separates people from the Eucharist. I'll play the devil's advocate and argue against this.

I see no reason that it necessarily should separate people from the Eucharist. With a small amount of instruction people know what it is and what goes on, and learning the responses in Latin requires only a bit more work than learning them in one's native tongue. And if one knows what the phrases mean, why couldn't it be as meaningful as one's native language?

Of the great monotheistic religions of the near east, Christianity is the one that lacks a sacred language. It was once Latin, and perhaps the introduction of the vernacular made the liturgy of the Eucharist too profane (in the sacred/profane dichotomy of either/or, not as in profanity profane).

There are various levels of understanding of the Eucharist; some have a theological understanding buffered by thousands of pages of reading, some have the most basic understanding presented by first communion teachers, and probably every intermediate is held by someone. The understanding of the Eucharist comes not from the liturgy but from study outside of mass.

[Fish and Bread]

I consider both the idea of a sacred language and the use of the vernacular to have their own unique advantages and disadvantages. The same goes for chant, pipe organ music, and the guy playing the guitar. I think different things can be appropriate in different times and places, and for different people. Ideally, I think most parishes would offer a variety of choices -- perhaps a Tridentine Latin mass, a Novus Ordo with traditional venacular hymns including those borrowed from Protestantism (i.e. 16th-19th century), and a Novus ordo with modern guitar music. I don't see the harm in that -- people could choose the mass most edifying to them and their family on most weeks, and perhaps occasionally "have" to experience something different if their schedules force them to attend a different mass once in a while.

[fragmentsofdreams]

I have no problem with the use of Latin when the congregation is versed enough in Latin to understand what going on. It is not edifying if the congregation is listening to what they consider gibberish and responding with gibberish on cue. The words of the liturgy can only ingrain knowledge if they are understood.

[Fish and Bread]

I have no problem with the use of Latin when the congregation is versed enough in Latin to understand what going on. It is not edifying if the congregation is listening to what they consider gibberish and responding with gibberish on cue. The words of the liturgy can only ingrain knowledge if they are understood.
Sometimes, though, hearing a language repeatedly, especially with a translation on hand, can help you understand it. Also, arguably one doesn't really need to understand every word that's said in a mass as long as you get the general sense of what's going on. Religious instruction can take place during the homily and in other venues as well.

I don't necessarily see the mass in the vernacular as a clear-cut issue one way or the other. I think it would be difficult for a Roman Catholic to say it is absolutely necessary, since the Church maintained that it absolutely wasn't for many centuries. By the same token, it would be hard to say it's always bad, in light of Vatican II and the practice of the early church. Thus, I would say it comes down to either a pastoral decision given a given time, place, and body of people; or a decision of personal preference by the attendee. Sometimes these issues tend to unnecessarily polarizing, I don't think it's necessarily an "either-or" choice.

[boughtwithaprice]

I am happy that the Catholic church has a Latin Mass and a sacred language. Its existance should be cherished. I just don't believe that it should be forced on people and those that prefer the vernacular are somehow made to feel inferior. I also don't believe that if the Catholic church returned to the Latin Tridentine Mass, all the problems would go away. The liturgy was made for the people, not people for the liturgy

[Loki]

I am happy that the Catholic church has a Latin Mass and a sacred language. Its existance should be cherished. I just don't believe that it should be forced on people and those that prefer the vernacular are somehow made to feel inferior. I also don't believe that if the Catholic church returned to the Latin Tridentine Mass, all the problems would go away. The liturgy was made for the people, not people for the liturgy

People think the return of the Tridentine mass will efface all the problems? If only life were so simple...

A question for those who prefer the option: I think most of us here are too young to have been raised in pre VII Catholicism, so if you were brought up in the Latin-speaking church, would the choice of attending mass in the vernacular be as important as it is today, where most Catholics are used to the vernacular?

[fragmentsofdreams]

Sometimes, though, hearing a language repeatedly, especially with a translation on hand, can help you understand it. Also, arguably one doesn't really need to understand every word that's said in a mass as long as you get the general sense of what's going on. Religious instruction can take place during the homily and in other venues as well.

I don't necessarily see the mass in the vernacular as a clear-cut issue one way or the other. I think it would be difficult for a Roman Catholic to say it is absolutely necessary, since the Church maintained that it absolutely wasn't for many centuries. By the same token, it would be hard to say it's always bad, in light of Vatican II and the practice of the early church. Thus, I would say it comes down to either a pastoral decision given a given time, place, and body of people; or a decision of personal preference by the attendee. Sometimes these issues tend to unnecessarily polarizing, I don't think it's necessarily an "either-or" choice.

As I said, I have no problem when the congregation is educated in Latin enough to understand what's going on. The problem is that even when Latin was still taught in schools, many still had only a vague understanding of what was going on.

[Loki]

I think I'm gonna get kicked out of the Liberals club; went to a Tridentine mass today, and if it weren't necessarily associated with what I've lovingly termed "dire Catholics" (for all you RPGers), I'd go more often. Solemn Mass is a thing of beauty, and their pipe organ shook the walls.

[Protinus]

I love the discussion here and I marvel at Loki's most recent experience. I have not contributed as I should have lately.

But I want to say that Loki embodies the spirit of TLT and questions that persist beyond our forum and awareness.

I will state that the mass must be fluent in the language of the partakers so that universal trancendance can be approached...we are not a petri dish of babeling church goers...we are fulfilling our promise in the Eucharist in our language and as it would be universally accepted...

[Loki]

I love the discussion here and I marvel at Loki's most recent experience. I have not contributed as I should have lately.

But I want to say that Loki embodies the spirit of TLT and questions that persist beyond our forum and awareness.


TLT?

[Protinus]

TLT?

The Lord's Table. My dearest Loki: can you not hear those that are so happy about your mass experience? We can only hope that those will be enriched by your words and spurned on by the richness of Catholic faith.

We will also be here, affirming the Catholic Church and also providing change within the Church we love.

[Loki]

The Lord's Table. My dearest Loki: can you not hear those that are so happy about your mass experience? We can only hope that those will be enriched by your words and spurned on by the richness of Catholic faith.

We will also be here, affirming the Catholic Church and also providing change within the Church we love.

Pretty sure you meant spurred, not spurned. Adds a bit of ironic humor to your post, though.

If i'm indicative of the spirit of this place, then we're in a sorry way indeed. I may go to mass regularly, hold the Church in high esteem, and believe much of what it says, but I honestly don't think I'll choose to be confirmed.

Though 3 years ago I'm not sure anyone expected me where I am now, so who knows.

Back to Bioshock!

[Protinus]

Pretty sure you meant spurred, not spurned. Adds a bit of ironic humor to your post, though.

If i'm indicative of the spirit of this place, then we're in a sorry way indeed. I may go to mass regularly, hold the Church in high esteem, and believe much of what it says, but I honestly don't think I'll choose to be confirmed.

Though 3 years ago I'm not sure anyone expected me where I am now, so who knows.

Back to Bioshock!


indeed it is "spurred" as we are by your presence here...if not by my amazing lack of spelling coordination and awkwardness!!:wave:

[JasonV]

I own a St. Joseph's Daily Missal from pre-VII. It has both the Latin and English translation for the Mass, and is quite easy to follow along.

I realize that Latin is not taught in schools anymore, but Spanish (and French) is taught, and if you know a little Spanish, it's not much of a stretch to figure out the Latin.

Besides, learning a new language might just compel you to learn a bit more about your liturgy....and that's all good. :)

[D'Ann]

What I love about the Catholic Church is that there is room for all. All are welcomed.

Some parishes have Masses that are in Latin (TLM)... and some are after Vat II with whatever language is of the people attending Mass.

I believe that the TLM and NO Masses are wonderful and there is room for both.

Thank you for this thread. It's wonderful.

God's Peace,

Debbie

[Protinus]

Thank you Debbie. We must receive the Word in ths fashion that is most meaningful... Paul did this, I we must profess, include and witness to as many faithful that we can. That is a mass in the local language.

[Rochir]

The actual problem with the Tridentine Mass in my mind goes far beyond the mere superficiality of language!

The Tridentine Mass is one where lay people play no part but that of followers. The Tridentine Mass cements the power of the Clergy over their "sheep" The Tridentine Mass emphasises the set apart role of the priest by removing him from the flock, and not having him be part of the congregation!

Also, as far as I know, the Tridentine Mass has very offensive language towards Jews in it! Something Benedict wants to remedy, but still ....

[Loki]

There's one line about praying for the conversion of the Jews in the Good Friday liturgy.

I perceive the focus of the Tridentine mass to be reverence of something beyond the community rather within the community. Which is right? Probably both.

[JasonV]

Rochir, I'd like to address your post from my own POV if you don't mind.

The idea behind the "clergy" is that they represent Christ and the original Apostles. It's not that they are "better" people, or "more holy" (although you'd hope they were trying harder) but that they have an indelible mark placed upon them via Holy Orders that literally "makes" them different. It's not "better" but it's distinct from laypersons.

They are as much a part of the church as the laity, but they have different roles.

[The most important part of the TLM, in my view, is the position of the Priest. Rather than looking toward the congregation, the Priest looks to God facing East (or liturgical East as the case may be). While I admit that there is a spark of the divine in each of us, sometimes we have to look to something more than each other for Greater Light. ]

They are granted the "power" to do what someone who has not received Holy Orders cannot do. Specifically I'm talking about the Eucharist.

It's not that others cannot receive Holy Orders and do the same thing, but without their ordination, they're not doing it.

Pax

[Rochir]

Rochir, I'd like to address your post from my own POV if you don't mind.

The idea behind the "clergy" is that they represent Christ and the original Apostles. It's not that they are "better" people, or "more holy" (although you'd hope they were trying harder) but that they have an indelible mark placed upon them via Holy Orders that literally "makes" them different. It's not "better" but it's distinct from laypersons.

They are as much a part of the church as the laity, but they have different roles.

[The most important part of the TLM, in my view, is the position of the Priest. Rather than looking toward the congregation, the Priest looks to God facing East (or liturgical East as the case may be). While I admit that there is a spark of the divine in each of us, sometimes we have to look to something more than each other for Greater Light. ]

They are granted the "power" to do what someone who has not received Holy Orders cannot do. Specifically I'm talking about the Eucharist.

It's not that others cannot receive Holy Orders and do the same thing, but without their ordination, they're not doing it.

Pax

Hm, I understand that.

But the whole point of the V II reforms regarding mass was to open the crusted structures of the church and let lay people have more of a say in church matters as well as being more included within the celebration of the Eucharist. The average church member should be included in the service an feel that they are part of the celebration together with their priest, instead of just looking on and saying yay and amen!

I woudl be interested in observing a Tridentine Mass some time, to see how it feels, looks and sounds like. I even have no problem thatnow churches can freely offer the Tridentine Mass if their members wish it so.

Still, to bring back this old form is giving Catholics and non-catholics a very bad sign - namely that the Church is rather looking backwards than forwards into the future!:|

[Horizonol]

The actual problem with the Tridentine Mass in my mind goes far beyond the mere superficiality of language!

The Tridentine Mass is one where lay people play no part but that of followers. The Tridentine Mass cements the power of the Clergy over their "sheep" The Tridentine Mass emphasises the set apart role of the priest by removing him from the flock, and not having him be part of the congregation!

Also, as far as I know, the Tridentine Mass has very offensive language towards Jews in it! Something Benedict wants to remedy, but still ....

The traditional Mass very much has a part for the laity and the priest. If you ever go to a daily low Mass, a lay person (or persons) will sit in the pews and respond to the priest. I find myself far more involved than just singing along at an ordinary Mass.

Even in the ordinary Mass, the priest is still the only one who touches the altar or consecrates the host. The differences between the two is that the traditional Mass is more focused towards God, whereas the ordinary Mass sacrifices some of that solemnity for communal worship. Furthermore, I think the ordinary Mass focuses more on the resurrection and celebratory aspects than the traditional Mass and its focus on sacrifice and offering.