Do Messianics Try To Keep the Law?

[spiritualwoman]

[this thread was moved to the debate forum, but did not originally start here]
I was wondering if Messianics try to keep the law, is this a problem, since Jesus said no man can keep the law as the law was given to show no man is capable of doing so?

Do Messianics agree that Jesus came to fill up the law so that we may live by the Spirit of the law indwelling us rather than walk after the law. No man can keep the law as the law was given to show how utterly sinful man was, that man needs salvation, and the the law was for Isarel alone, but Israel should not try to keep it anymore because Jesus fills it up to walk after the spirit in reliance upon Him.

I would like to hear your perspective on this and what distinguishes your choice for choosing Messianic Judaism. Judaism rejects Christ until Christ returns. The Messiah already came to die on the cross, so how can you still be Messianic of old, waiting for your Messiah who already died on the cross and believe in Judaism that does not accept the atonement of Christ?


Help me to help understand your choice.

[HadassahSukkot]

I would suggest starting in the FAQ's here. (http://foru.ms/t5934857-messianic-judaism-information-central-faqs-links.html)

Not trying to be rude, but this has been answered a lot of times, and in some threads it got really detailed, and we decided to add those to our frequently asked questions thread.

Maybe we can break down your individual post question by question and answer it that way, better to your satisfaction?

I am sure you will find varying degrees of answers from the MJs here and the MGs here.. but in general we find no issue in following the commandments, as Y'shua said " If ye love me, keep my commandments... He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him"

Torah is like a fence. Grace is the freedom to walk within that fence, and when we step outside that boundary, for the shepherd to bring us back and for us to dust off and play again with the other sheep within the safety of G-d's fold.

We look forward to the return of Messiah, and we look back at the accomplishes He has made...

We celebrate the feasts and follow his commandments, because we love Him. And as a wife who loves her husband, we seek to please him in what we do. :)

[spiritualwoman]

I was hoping for a personal touch like Christ would give, not wordy and 1001 links that do not address specifically my concerns.

For example, animal sacrifices should not still be performed, and there is no such thing as a Christian sabbath, because Jesus was not resurrected on Saturday, but Sunday, so that we fellowship usually on Sundays because this is the fist day of the week of His resurrection. And it is said this day is a day wholly unlike the Sabbath, because you are to be killed if you do not keep the Sabbath and are not suppose to work, but the Lords day is a day of spiritual vitality and activity.

Praise the Lord!

[NorK]

I was wondering if Messianics try to keep the law, is this a problem, since Jesus said no man can keep the law as the law was given to show no man is capable of doing so?

Could you provide a referance for this from Yeshua, since you claim he said it? TY

Do Messianics agree that Jesus came to fill up the law so that we may live by the Spirit of the law indwelling us rather than walk after the law.


Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

emphasis mine.

I can only speak for myself, but I see that He came to fulfill (ie do) the law. Since he prefaced the statement with "I came not to destroy" then fulfill can not mean "do away with", "change", or any other word the implies getting rid of it. I believe that He came to fulfill Torah, not change Torah.


No man can keep the law as the law was given to show how utterly sinful man was, that man needs salvation, and the the law for Isarel alone, but Israel should not try to keep it anymore because Jesus fills it up to walk after the spirit.

Uh....no. What does scripture say about the Torah? Why was it given? "And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day." (Deuteronomy 6:24) The Torah is good. In the Torah is life! It is for our good ALWAYS! Not for our good till "Jesus" comes and gets rid of that stuff.

Again. We can do it.

"For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it." (Deuteronomy 30:11-14).

HaShem says we can do it, you say we can't...I go with HaShem.

As far as it being just for Israel, it is for ALL who would attach themselves to Israel. Check out Numbers 15:16; 29-30 and Exodus 12:49.

I would like to hear your perspective on this.

Always glad to share.;)

[HadassahSukkot]

Spiritualwoman, there was a long post in the FAQs, post #2 which seems to be missing at the moment, which answered alot of your questions. I wasn't trying to be vague.

[GerTzedek]

I was hoping for a personal touch like Christ would give, not wordy and 1001 links that do not address specifically my concerns.

For example, animal sacrifices should not still be performed, and there is no such thing as a Christian sabbath, because Jesus was not resurrected on Saturday, but Sunday, so that we fellowship usually on Sundays because this is the fist day of the week of His resurrection. And it is said this day is a day wholly unlike the Sabbath, because you are to be killed if you do not keep the Sabbath and are not suppose to work, but the Lords day is a day of spiritual vitality and activity.

Praise the Lord!
The problem is that this forum is not structured to argue with you over this point, with or without a personal touch like Christ would give. Messianic views are not to be debated.

1.4 Debating and Teaching in MJ

Debating is defined by definition as a discussion involving a proposed solution to an issue. MJ Believers beliefs are not up for debate by anyone that is not an MJ Believer... You may ask questions to why we believe a certain way but may not challenge us on our beliefs . A separate debate area can be used for this.

Also not allowed are teachings against:

Torah observance
Sabbath observance
Kosher observance
Keeping of Holy Days in the bible
I'm sure you just didn't know. No hard feelings.

Shalom

[spiritualwoman]

Could you provide a referance for this from Yeshua, since you claim he said it? I have the verse ready, but GerTzedek said I am not allowed to discuss it.

[spiritualwoman]

All I know is animal sacrifices are not Gods will today. I also know there is no Christian sabbath, for Jesus was raised on Sunday, not Saturday. If you worked on the Sabbath you were to be killed, but since Jesus came to fill up the law, this is no longer so. The was only for Israel or those who attached themselves as a nation with Israel. The Lords day now is unlike the Sabbath, for the Lords day is full of spiritual activity and vitality. The book of Hebrews agrees with all this I find and is a hard book for those who are still in Judaism or still Messianics.

I view the law as still remaining, and remains until all these things are done, but while it remains we dont walk by the law, but by the spirit with the Spirit of the law in our spirits. Its like when the DOS program was still operating underneath Windows and was not used. Do you see how the law can remain yet we dont walk by it? After the millennial kingdom, then the law is done away with. I hope someone can see what I am saying, for I got these ideas directly from the book of Hebrews in the NT.

[ContentInHim]

I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry, spiritualwoman, but I would suggest that you read the FAQ's and understand that you are beginning to debate our beliefs which is not permitted. :)

[A_Pioneer]

All I know is animal sacrifices are not Gods will today. I also know there is no Christian sabbath, for Jesus was raised on Sunday, not Saturday. If you worked on the Sabbath you were to be killed, but since Jesus came to fill up the law, this is no longer so. The was only for Israel or those who attached themselves as a nation with Israel. The Lords day now is unlike the Sabbath, for the Lords day is full of spiritual activity and vitality. The book of Hebrews agrees with all this I find and is a hard book for those who are still in Judaism or still Messianics.

I view the law as still remaining, and remains until all these things are done, but while it remains we dont walk by the law, but by the spirit with the Spirit of the law in our spirits. Its like when the DOS program was still operating underneath Windows and was not used. Do you see how the law can remain yet we dont walk by it? After the millennial kingdom, then the law is done away with. I hope someone can see what I am saying, for I got these ideas directly from the book of Hebrews in the NT.
What you are saying is G-d gave the Hebrews a set of Laws that only a G-d could keep and died laughing at those stupid Hebrews trying to do the impossible!

Sorry but you are just wrong, wrong, wrong!

Please leave and go back to your rose colored glasses where everything is so rosy.

I welcome seekers of truth, but those who say My Mind is Made up and set in concrete. I don't have a JackHammer!

The G-d of Love, doing something so hateful! G-d Forbid!

[visionary]

Bless you for trying to see why some of us are here. Let me reassure you that none us of are successful at "keeping" the law.

We observe it, study it, try to live by it, and pray why did the Lord say this or that, and all of us are by His grace blessed, saved, and forgive for all our trippings up. So why do we keep trying, ... because we LOVE HIM.

He set the example, He gave the directions, He laid out the plan of salvation, He stated these are His Law, He lived them, and they are the Laws of His Kingdom... who are we to argue.

[GerTzedek]

I have the verse ready, but GerTzedek said I am not allowed to discuss it.
Me? I quoted for you the forum's wiki. Odd how after this remark, your very next post repeated your arguments against our beliefs. Naughty, naughty.

FWIW, the Jews in Messianic Judaism ARE part of Israel, and the gentiles ARE seeking to attach themselves to Israel. The answer to your question is simple: If ye love Me, keep My commandments. - John 14:15 The point is not whether we have achieved perfection, but whether we are, with G-d's grace, working towards complete obedience. Faithfulness.

[spiritualwoman]

The book of Hebrews, which you may or may not accept, tells us that the law has been set aside. Do you accept the book of Hebrews? And in Galatians, But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law (Gal. 5.18). How do you remain under the law still? Explain it to me simply in our own words and not in some link I have to search through to read your mind. Sincerely.

[A_Pioneer]

26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Yeshua.
27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith.
28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30 since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.
31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Ro 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
BTW do you ever see briars and thistles?

There will be none in the Kingdom.
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken;30 then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; 31 and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[spiritualwoman]

Rom. 3.21, But now God has shown us a different way of being right in his sight-not by obeying the law.

Rom. 3.22 is interesting because it disproves calvinism: We all can be saved in this same way, no matter who we are or what we have done.

As you know, calvinists believe in limited atonement, not unlimited atonement.

Rom. 3.28, So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

Rom. 3.31, Only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

But today, when we say fulfill the law, does this mean we sacrifice animals, put people to death for working on the Sabbath, stone them and keep the Sabbath? No, of course not! For Jesus came to fill up the law as spoken of in Matt. 5-7 and addresses the ten commandments. Hence, we walk by the Spirit that truly fulfills the law; so do not try to keep the ancient law of Israel which was for that nation alone in the dispensation of the law.

The doers of the law, Rom. 2.13, are not those those who do no work on the Sabbath, kill people who do work on the Sabbath, and sacrifice animals. The 10 commandments have one commandment which is ceremonial which is the Sabbath to be kept by Israel as a sign of the covenant that God has with Israel; there is no such thing as a Christian Sabbath to judaize Christianity with. The other nine commandments are strictly moral in nature. We should never forget this!

Matt. 24.29-31 is indeed Israel receiving her glory as the center of all nations and does not pertain to Christians, for the body of Christ is dealt with at Matt. 24.32-25.30, and the nations in 25.31-46.

[HeatherMicaela]

Your original post sounded like a sincere question. I once wondered the same thing.

Now you are debating.:sigh:

I am fairly new to these forums also and not sure the rules what can be posted, but this I know. This is a "safe zone" for Torah Observant Messianics. From what I understand, one need not *be* Torah observant to post here (or be so of varying degrees) but to debate whether that is right or wrong is not allowed.

It would be like coming into my home an criticizing me.

[visionary]

Rom. 3.21, But now God has shown us a different way of being right in his sight-not by obeying the law.

Rom. 3.22 is interesting because it disproves calvinism: We all can be saved in this same way, no matter who we are or what we have done.

As you know, calvinists believe in limited atonement, not unlimited atonement.

Rom. 3.28, So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

Rom. 3.31, Only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

But today, when we say fulfill the law, does this mean we sacrifice animals, put people to death for working on the Sabbath, stone them and keep the Sabbath? No, of course not! For Jesus came to fill up the law as spoken of in Matt. 5-7 and addresses the ten commandments. Hence, we walk by the Spirit that truly fulfills the law; so do not try to keep the ancient law of Israel which was for that nation alone in the dispensation of the law.

The doers of the law, Rom. 2.13, are not those those who do no work on the Sabbath, kill people who do work on the Sabbath, and sacrifice animals. The 10 commandments have one commandment which is ceremonial which is the Sabbath to be kept by Israel as a sign of the covenant that God has with Israel; there is no such thing as a Christian Sabbath to judaize Christianity with. The other nine commandments are strictly moral in nature. We should never forget this!

Matt. 24.29-31 is indeed Israel receiving her glory as the center of all nations and does not pertain to Christians, for the body of Christ is dealt with at Matt. 24.32-25.30, and the nations in 25.31-46.We can give you just as many scriptures that speak of the importance of "keeping" the commandments as you have given verses that "seem" to do away with them.

First... understand that there are oral commandments, there are rabbidical commandments, the law of God, the statutes of God, and the oracles of God, and the law of ordinances. Now that is a mess to sort out.

Second.... as others have pointed out, it doesn't go well for your thread if you think you can come in here and teach us about the law. Many of us have come from sinilar backgrounds upon which you speak and know those arguments, and have come to believe they do not hold water.

Third... if you are genuinely intereted in how now see those same verses of contention, ask us. No need to explain how you see them. Let go of the greek/roman understanding and learn the way all the disciples and Paul were trained and understood scripture, so that when they say/write what they did, you get it in the hebrew context.

[A_Pioneer]

Rom. 3.21, But now God has shown us a different way of being right in his sight-not by obeying the law.

Rom. 3.22 is interesting because it disproves calvinism: We all can be saved in this same way, no matter who we are or what we have done.

As you know, calvinists believe in limited atonement, not unlimited atonement.

Rom. 3.28, So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

Rom. 3.31, Only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

But today, when we say fulfill the law, does this mean we sacrifice animals, put people to death for working on the Sabbath, stone them and keep the Sabbath? No, of course not! For Jesus came to fill up the law as spoken of in Matt. 5-7 and addresses the ten commandments. Hence, we walk by the Spirit that truly fulfills the law; so do not try to keep the ancient law of Israel which was for that nation alone in the dispensation of the law.

The doers of the law, Rom. 2.13, are not those those who do no work on the Sabbath, kill people who do work on the Sabbath, and sacrifice animals. The 10 commandments have one commandment which is ceremonial which is the Sabbath to be kept by Israel as a sign of the covenant that God has with Israel; there is no such thing as a Christian Sabbath to judaize Christianity with. The other nine commandments are strictly moral in nature. We should never forget this!

Matt. 24.29-31 is indeed Israel receiving her glory as the center of all nations and does not pertain to Christians, for the body of Christ is dealt with at Matt. 24.32-25.30, and the nations in 25.31-46.
Dear woman, you come with ONE of the 3,500 Denominational views of the NT, then tell me I am trying to gain salvation by works of the law! How presumtious of you! My Moshiach said "if you love me 'keep the commandments'." I love him and I keep those commandments that pertain to me! How am I saved? By hearing the word of G-d and believing in the G-d who sent it/word into the world to save mankind from sin!

Are you saved by another method?

But my dear lady, this only gets you in the Kingdom, there is much, much, much more for those who do the will of G-d.

So dear lady, go back to your comfortable soft Church seats, sing your hymns, marvel at the beauty of your stained glass windows, listen to how you have become the New Israel and have put on the righteousness of Jesus, and he has done it all for you for free. You sit there until the Great Shofar blows and rattles you stained glass windows, then you will see him as he is!
And I fear you and your lovely pew sitters will not reflect his glory and wont that be a crying shame? Because it is all in the book and you failed to read how Yeshua was a Torah observant Hebrew who said if you will, come follow me. And he would not darken the doors of your Christian Church.

Yeshua will tread the floors of the Temple in Jerusalem.

Baruch Ha’ba B’Shem Adonai
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD! [Ps 118:26 NKJV]

[spiritualwoman]

I dont belong to a denomination since it says in the Bible dont say I of Cephas and I of Apollos like saying I am Messianic Jew (similar to 7th day adventist) or Roman Church or Eastern Church or Methodist or Presbyterian, etc. It also says dont say I of Christ because that is like saying you are congregationalist whereas God defines the church as the church of Jerusalem or Corinth or Smyrna. Who can deny this? Never is the church the name of some ideology. Otherwise, then you have to resort to the sin of ecumenicalism to rationalize these divisions. There is only one way to divide the churches as they are defined in the Bible according to their locales.

All I know is the sacrifices have ended, there is no Christian Sabbath, and we dont stone people to death for working on Saturday. Jesus said we can also eat any kind of meat and the true Jew is the Christian. Hence, we walk by the Spirit of the law, not the law. Why try to still keep the law then which was only for Israel and only during the dispensation of the law? Let us observe the the law filled up now by Jesus.

[HeatherMicaela]

Yeshua did not do away with the law.Faith in him is more than just fire insurance.

[spiritualwoman]

What do the Scriptures teach about the law? God never gave it to the Gentiles. He gave it to the nation of Israel: He showeth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his ordinances unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his ordinances, they have not known them. Praise ye Jehovah (Ps. 147.19-20).

It is the explicit teaching of the Bible that the Gentiles do not have the law: When Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves (Rom. 2.14).

(1) How about the Gentiles after they are saved? Acts 15.5 reads: there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses. Nevertheless, the decision of the council at Jerusalem was: it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you [Gentile believers] no greater burden than these necessary things; that ye abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which if ye keep yourselves, it shall be well with you (Acts 15.28-29). The Gentiles do not have the law before they are saved, and they are not required to keep the law after they are saved. For God has not given the law to the Gentiles.

(2) How about the Jews? The law was given to the Jews. They are born under the law. Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished (Matt. 5.18). The Lord has no intention of destroying the law among the Jews, for they are under the law. To fulfil (5.17) means to fill it to the full. For example, formerly it was: Thou shalt not kill; today, says Jesus, it is: Thou shalt not hate. This is to fill the law to the full.

(3) Many Jews have believed in the Lord. How about their relationship to the law? When the Jews become Christians, they belong to the Church in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile (see Col. 3.11). Paul illustrates it this way: are ye ignorant, brethren (for I speak to men who know the law), that the law hath dominion over a man for so long time as he liveth? For the woman that hath a husband is bound by law to the husband while he liveth; but if the husband die, she is discharged from the law of the husband. So then if, while the husband liveth, she be joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if the husband die, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she be joined to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God (Rom. 7.1-4).

If you are a Christian you would have died on the cross with Christ to the law so you are not longer under the law. The law remains, but you are not under the law. If you still try to keep the law, my heart goes out to you.

For a Jew to believe in the Lord is like a woman getting married. How can she be freed from the former husband, the law? There is only one way—if the husband dies. But here is a problem: As we have read already, heaven and earth may pass away, but one jot or one title of the law shall not pass away till all things be accomplished. What can be done if the law never dies? Well, even if the law does not die, you can die. How? Ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ. So the teaching of Romans 7.1-4 is that though the law cannot die, God has caused us to die with Christ, and thus we are freed from the law. Through the death of Christ we are set free from the law. We are raised from the dead with Christ and then married to Him. This death is real death. Hence, in being joined to Christ, we are no adulteress. God uses the death of Christ to include our death. How assured this is. And resurrection is also sure.

Hence, a man (even a Jew) who has formerly been under the law has died and been raised in Christ to receive new life. He is not under law anymore since he has already died. Sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace (Rom. 6.14). Furthermore, now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter (Rom. 7.6). In believing in the Lord, one is discharged from the law. The position of a Christian is that he has died. It is a position of death, he having been crucified with Christ. The law has no relationship with him, it having only a relationship with the old man.

(4) We must show new believers why God gave the law. There is a good reason for it, made clear in the Scriptures. Now this I say: A covenant confirmed beforehand by God, the law, which came four hundred and thirty years after, doth not disannul, so as to make the promise of none effect…. What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made; and it was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator…. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could make alive, verily righteousness would have been of the law…. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor (Gal. 3.17,19,21,25).

Now concerning the keeping of the Sabbath, we have seen in the days of the church at Smyrna that the Judaizers came in. Later, during the ascendancy of the Roman Church, Judaism and Christianity became deeply intertwined. For over a thousand years the Lords Day was called the Christian Sabbath. Furthermore, a century ago the Judaizers came into the Church again and commanded people to keep the Sabbath. They even hung the text of the Ten Commandments in church buildings. They considered the Sabbath, which is Saturday, to be the Lords Day. Yet Saturday is the Sabbath of the Jews, while Sunday is the Lords Day of the Christians. The Christians do not keep the Sabbath day of the Fourth Commandment. It is highly improper to change the Sabbath, which is the seventh day of the Jewish week, to the first day of the week. The real issue, however, does not lie in which day of the week it is. It rests in the fact that Christians do not keep the Sabbath, for we believers are not under the law.

Let us see what the Scriptures teach about the Sabbath: (1) The first mention of it is found in Genesis 2.3: God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made. From that time, for the next two thousand five hundred years nothing further was heard about the Sabbath. (2) After leading the children of Israel out of Egypt, God gave the Sabbath to them in the wilderness: See, for that Jehovah hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day (Ex. 16.29). (3) The Sabbath became law: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it (Ex. 20.8-11). (4) You as the people of God must keep My Sabbath day for this is a sign between you and Me throughout the generations. So instructs the word of God in the Old Testament: Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily ye shall keep my sabbaths: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am Jehovah who sanctifieth you. . . . It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed (Ex. 31.13,17)—Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am Jehovah that sanctifieth them” (Eze. 20.12). (5) To keep the Sabbath is the salvation of the Jews. It is quite evident that the Sabbath is given to the Jews as a sign.

What does Paul teach concerning the Sabbath? He maintains that the Sabbath is a thing that has passed away: having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross . . . Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ’s (Col. 2.14,16-17). The bond written in ordinances refers to the entire law. On the cross our Lord has blotted out the entire law. This is because the law attacks us and demands us to be holy. But we are sinful. So the Lord was crucified for us. The Judaizers argue that what has been blotted out is the ceremonial law, but that the moral law was not taken away. Feast days, new moons and Sabbath days are not classified by them as being under ceremonial law. Therefore, they must be kept, even as the moral law under the Ten Commandments.

However, the Scriptures do not make such a distinction. All the ceremonial laws are for moral purposes. To offer sacrifice is for a moral reason. Colossians shows us that what has been blotted out is not merely the ceremonial law. The bond written in ordinances refers to the total contract God made with Israel. It is the same as when we sign a contract today. In Exodus 19.5 we read: Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine. And in verse 8: all the people answered together, and said, All that Jehovah hath spoken we will do. There is the bond written in ordinances. It refers to moral and not only to ceremonial law. So let us cause new believers to see that for us Christians it has already been nailed to the cross.

When our Lord was on earth He kept the Sabbath day and received circumcision. But the Letter to the Galatians puts an end to this matter of the Sabbath. The same is true with circumcision. Only after 70 A.D. (the Roman destruction of Jerusalems Temple) could the letters of Paul stand on the pure ground of Christianity. Before that time the Temple and the priests were still present. It was easy to sit on the fence and enjoy both the lamb and the Lamb of God. For this reason we were given the Letter to the Hebrews. The following verse therein points to this changing time: There remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins (10.26). Thereafter, people could no longer straddle the fence. Furthermore, Christianity has developed to the point where a word of God resolves all the problems of the past.

If the Jewish Temple existed today we would still have difficulties, for these Judaizers would bring forth such midway things as have been discussed (and in fact they will do so again when the Temple is rebuilt and used by the Antichrist). A fundamental principle to be recognized is that nothing in the Scriptures can be decided midway. These matters of the Sabbath day and the law are both midway things. They cannot be resolved without going to the Epistles. The final word on the teaching concerning the Sabbath is found in Colossians 2.14, which declares: God has “blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us; and he hath taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross.”

[spiritualwoman]

Conclusion: the law remains if you are still unsaved, not having died to the law with Christ on the cross. If you live by the law, you will die by the law. To die on the cross with Christ is no insurance policy but a sure death of your old woman to put the deeds of the flesh to naught. For those of you who still try to keep the law, you are the Judaizers.

[ContentInHim]

Are you glad that you got that out of your system? :D

Honestly, you sound like my niece this past summer. She couldn't understand how I came to be where I am even though she had given me many words that the Lord was very pleased with what I was doing. She just wasn't aware of where I was heading by Holy Spirit conviction and was offended especially that I no longer ate pork. Even after I told her that it upset my stomach and did so long before I began eating kosher, she was offended that I had, as she phrased it, put myself under the law. :D

If you do not care to follow Yeshua's commandments, then don't. That's your affair and you are entitled to your beliefs. But if you continue to disparage MJ's beliefs, you will undoubtedly get many reports and probably a forum ban. Choose wisely, sister! :hug:

[spiritualwoman]

Keeping the law is the problem. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor (Gal. 3.17,19,21,25).

[Jim47]

Moving this thread to the debate sub forum.

[visionary]

Conclusion: the law remains if you are still unsaved, not having died to the law with Christ on the cross. If you live by the law, you will die by the law. To die on the cross with Christ is no insurance policy but a sure death of your old woman to put the deeds of the flesh to naught. For those of you who still try to keep the law, you are the Judaizers.Thank you... as judaizers as Yeshua would want us to be.. this is a most excellent compliment.

If you are truly interested... Could you please choose one verse and allow us to explain how we see it defferently from the way that you presented it? Then you can post another verse and we will again explain how we see it differently. I believe you will be pleasantly surprise and if you pray about it, you will come to see what we are saying. God is moving us and grafting us into the root.

[spiritualwoman]

Judaizing is wrong (see the verses in post #21 above already given why). The Pharisees were Judaizers. Pick the verse you would like to talk about.

[spiritualwoman]

Nothing in the New Covenant needs to be completed with the help of the Old Covenant. The Roman Church teaches that keeping the Lord’s Day is keeping the Sabbath day of Christianity. Yet this is to blend together Judaism and Christianity. Here come the Judaizers who try to bring the entire system of Judaism into Christianity. Yet if we must keep the Sabbath day, then we are no longer Christians. By accepting the Jewish system, we drop the status of being Christians and turn into pure Jews—even as the apostle Paul declared: “Ye observe days, and months, and seasons, and years. I am afraid of you, lest by any means I have bestowed labor upon you in vain” (Gal. 4.10-11).

[HeatherMicaela]

"Christianity" *was* a sect of Judiasm until Rome took over

[visionary]

Judaizing is wrong (see the verses in post #21 above already given why). The Pharisees were Judaizers. Pick the verse you would like to talk about.Yeshua was a true judaizer in its proper context. When you see that then the verse you are pointing out is derogatory to use it when applying to us. Not a good way to make friends.

[visionary]

Nothing in the New Covenant needs to be completed with the help of the Old Covenant. The Roman Church teaches that keeping the Lord’s Day is keeping the Sabbath day of Christianity. Yet this is to blend together Judaism and Christianity. Here come the Judaizers who try to bring the entire system of Judaism into Christianity. Yet if we must keep the Sabbath day, then we are no longer Christians. By accepting the Jewish system, we drop the status of being Christians and turn into pure Jews—even as the apostle Paul declared: “Ye observe days, and months, and seasons, and years. I am afraid of you, lest by any means I have bestowed labor upon you in vain” (Gal. 4.10-11).You make it sound like turing into a jew is a bad thing. Messianic Jews are those who believe in the Messiah Yeshua which is a very good thing. Remember in the book of Acts.. Christians was the derogatory term in Antioch.

[Wags]

Nothing in the New Covenant needs to be completed with the help of the Old Covenant. The Roman Church teaches that keeping the Lord’s Day is keeping the Sabbath day of Christianity. Yet this is to blend together Judaism and Christianity. Here come the Judaizers who try to bring the entire system of Judaism into Christianity. Yet if we must keep the Sabbath day, then we are no longer Christians. By accepting the Jewish system, we drop the status of being Christians and turn into pure Jews—even as the apostle Paul declared: “Ye observe days, and months, and seasons, and years. I am afraid of you, lest by any means I have bestowed labor upon you in vain” (Gal. 4.10-11).

Yeshua the Messiah was Jewish - his disicples were Jewish. How can it be that being Jewish is a bad thing? And why does it matter what the ROMAN church teaches? Do you believe the teachings of men over the teachings of the JEWISH messiah?

The 7th day Sabbath is the only day set apart and made holy by God. There is NO scripture saying that God changed his mind about this or any of the other 10 commandments.

[spiritualwoman]

You are confusing Judaizing with being Jewish. There is nothing wrong with being Jewish, for in the 1000 years to come, the nations will remain including the nation of Israel. Judaizing means trying to keep the law when if you are saved you would have died to the law on the cross with Christ.

[visionary]

You are confusing Judaizing with being Jewish. There is nothing wrong with being Jewish, for in the 1000 years to come, the nations will remain including the nation of Israel. Judaizing means trying to keep the law when if you are saved you would have died to the law on the cross with Christ.Judaizing as illustrated in Acts is asking for circumcision before accepting the conversion. Paul argued that since the Holy Spirit has already baptised them who are we to demand circumcision before we believe.

[spiritualwoman]

Yes, good point. Judaizing can be understood this way as well. The church in Smyrna is directly contrary to the church in Laodicea (3.17). Now no one can be Smyrna before the Lord and simultaneously be Laodicea before the world.

The words of blasphemy in the second church period is that which defames us. Some people may endure tribulation and poverty, but few can withstand the mocking of their name.

“The blasphemy of them that say they are Jews”—This is because such blasphemy is begun by the Jews. Even while our Lord was on earth He was so blasphemed; how then can we avoid it?

What are the blasphemers’ words? Blasphemy against the word of salvation (Acts 13.45, 18.6, 19.9, 28.22; Rom. 3.8). Yet the Lord says “Blessed are ye when men shall . . . say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake” (Matt. 5.11).

Something more can be noticed here: “Say they are Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan”—Who are these people? Before solving this puzzle, we should first find out who are the real Jews.

By reading Romans 2.28-29, John 8.39-47, and Romans 4.11-12 we can readily perceive that a true believer in the Lord Jesus is a real Jew. Thus, those who are not Jews but say they are will naturally be a stance which points to the Jews according to the flesh together with the proselytes converted to Judaism.These people are organized into what may be called the Judaized church. Their teachings are Judaized, being partly based on law and partly on grace, a salvation partly by faith and partly by works. Their system follows that which is under the law, with a priestly caste.

There were a great number of these people at Paul’s time; except that they were more developed and organized by the time of writing of Revelation. Thus they have now become a synagogue of Satan, being used by him to propagate another gospel which is not the gospel at all. They try to keep the Sabbath and the law.

Rev. 3.9 “Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee”—There are at least four things which Judaizes Christianity; namely, an intermediary priesthood, a written code, a physical temple, and earthly promises. For those who truly know God, the influence of Judaism is completely nullified.

[A_Pioneer]

My dear lady, you just miss the point of Sha'uls not under the law! The Torah was not nailed to the cross.
But the handwritings of ordinances that were against you were, this was every wicked thing you said, did or thought! These were wiped out and you had a clean slate, if you turned you will over to G-d, then the Holy Spirit guides you into obedience! Keeping the commandments!
But if you delibertly sin after being saved by your faith in Yeshua,(you are so fond of Hebrews) He.10:26-31, you are in a heap o trouble!
Don't follow Yeshua, as he instructs, you are saved!
Don't be an imitator of Sha'ul as he imitates the Moshiach. You are saved and no longer under the peanalty of the law! But what does Sha'ul say about breaking the Law so Grace may abound? G-d forbid we uphold the law.
But no matter you are saved! Rejoice! Shout hallelulyah!
So are we, Praise the Lord. All I want to do is OBEY!
Is that okay by you?

Baruch Ha’ba B’Shem Adonai
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD! [Ps 118:26 NKJV]

[spiritualwoman]

I never said the Torah was nailed to the cross, so do not misconstrue what I said. And our sins are not nailed to the cross, but our old woman was nailed to the cross to put to nought the deeds of flesh of both our sins and of self.

Indeed, we have died to the law so that we are not under the law as the law was just for the nation of Israel, not for Christians nor Gentiles. Ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ. So the teaching of Romans 7.1-4 is that though the law cannot die, God has caused us to die with Christ, and thus we are freed from the law. Through the death of Christ we are set free from the law. We are raised from the dead with Christ and then married to Him. If you are Jewish, you can be freed from the law by dying on the cross with Christ. If you do not and you still try to keep the law, then how can a Christian brother acknowledge you as a member of the body of Christ, otherwise we would be sinning? Pray on this.

Be grateful to God there are no more animal sacrifices, no more keeping the Sabbath, no more not eating certain foods and no more marriage requirements such as having to marry your brothers wife and a long list of other things that were just for Israel when they were under the dispensation of the law and was only for them. Otherwise you would be a Pharisee trying to Judaize Christianity which would not please God at all.

[Wags]

According to your line of reasoning then it is okay for those that are saved to break any torah command because we are "free" and keeping the law means that we are not saved.

Since apparently I need to prove I am saved by breaking the law instead of keeping it I think I will start with a little murder. What time would work best for you?

Of course I'm not planning on actually doing that because I know better.

[Wags]

I believe that Torah was given to show a redeemed people how to live a life that is pleasing to the one that redeemed them. We do not keep torah in order to merit salvation – that is not what it was designed for. We keep it because we have been redeemed.

Yeshua himself said that He did not come to abolish Torah and that those that taught and kept it would be called great in the kingdom. (Matt 5:17-20) He also said that only those that “do the will of my Father” will enter the kingdom and those that don’t he called workers of lawlessness. (Matt 7:21-23) If you are lawless than you are without Torah. Yeshua also said “…it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter in the Torah to become void.” (Luke 16:17)

Now some have mistakenly taught that Rabbi Sha’ul (Paul) taught against the Torah but he actually called it “holy, just and good”. (Romans 7:12) He also said, “I continue to believe everything that accords with the Torah and everything written in the Prophets.” (Acts 24:14) He even claimed not to have violated oral torah – traditions of the fathers. (Acts 28:17). Paul also wrote “For it is not merely the hearers of Torah whom God considers righteous; rather, it is the doers of what Torah says who will be made righteous in God's sight.” (Romans 2:13)

For myself personally – through the power the Ruach HaKodesh (holy spirit) - I endeavor to observe Torah because that is what Yeshua did, and he is our ultimate example of how to live.

[visionary]

Here are the saints... here are they that keep the commandments and have the testimony of Yeshua.

[ChazakEmunah]

I dont belong to a denomination since it says in the Bible dont say I of Cephas and I of Apollos like saying I am Messianic Jew (similar to 7th day adventist) or Roman Church or Eastern Church or Methodist or Presbyterian, etc. It also says dont say I of Christ because that is like saying you are congregationalist whereas God defines the church as the church of Jerusalem or Corinth or Smyrna. Who can deny this? Never is the church the name of some ideology. Otherwise, then you have to resort to the sin of ecumenicalism to rationalize these divisions. There is only one way to divide the churches as they are defined in the Bible according to their locales.

All I know is the sacrifices have ended, there is no Christian Sabbath, and we dont stone people to death for working on Saturday. Jesus said we can also eat any kind of meat and the true Jew is the Christian. Hence, we walk by the Spirit of the law, not the law. Why try to still keep the law then which was only for Israel and only during the dispensation of the law? Let us observe the the law filled up now by Jesus.
The true Jew is the C*hristian??? That's the biggest load of bull I've ever heard...

So a person who rejects G-d, rejects his Torah, and worships a man is a true Jew, while a person who worships G-d alone and lives according to his Torah is no longer a Jew!?

So exactly how many Jews do you plan to convert with this type of garbage???

[ChazakEmunah]

"Christianity" *was* a sect of Judiasm until Rome took over
Umm.... Not quite. You may want to do some further research on the history of early C*hristianity. C*hristianity was never a sect of Judaism.

[ChazakEmunah]

Yes, good point. Judaizing can be understood this way as well. The church in Smyrna is directly contrary to the church in Laodicea (3.17). Now no one can be Smyrna before the Lord and simultaneously be Laodicea before the world.

The words of blasphemy in the second church period is that which defames us. Some people may endure tribulation and poverty, but few can withstand the mocking of their name.

“The blasphemy of them that say they are Jews”—This is because such blasphemy is begun by the Jews. Even while our Lord was on earth He was so blasphemed; how then can we avoid it?

What are the blasphemers’ words? Blasphemy against the word of salvation (Acts 13.45, 18.6, 19.9, 28.22; Rom. 3.8). Yet the Lord says “Blessed are ye when men shall . . . say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake” (Matt. 5.11).

Something more can be noticed here: “Say they are Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan”—Who are these people? Before solving this puzzle, we should first find out who are the real Jews.

By reading Romans 2.28-29, John 8.39-47, and Romans 4.11-12 we can readily perceive that a true believer in the Lord Jesus is a real Jew. Thus, those who are not Jews but say they are will naturally be a stance which points to the Jews according to the flesh together with the proselytes converted to Judaism.These people are organized into what may be called the Judaized church. Their teachings are Judaized, being partly based on law and partly on grace, a salvation partly by faith and partly by works. Their system follows that which is under the law, with a priestly caste.

There were a great number of these people at Paul’s time; except that they were more developed and organized by the time of writing of Revelation. Thus they have now become a synagogue of Satan, being used by him to propagate another gospel which is not the gospel at all. They try to keep the Sabbath and the law.

Rev. 3.9 “Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee”—There are at least four things which Judaizes Christianity; namely, an intermediary priesthood, a written code, a physical temple, and earthly promises. For those who truly know God, the influence of Judaism is completely nullified.
Funny.... that could quite accurately describe someone like yourself.... "They say that they are Jewish, but are not..."

[ChazakEmunah]

I believe that Torah was given to show a redeemed people how to live a life that is pleasing to the one that redeemed them. We do not keep torah in order to merit salvation – that is not what it was designed for. We keep it because we have been redeemed.

Yeshua himself said that He did not come to abolish Torah and that those that taught and kept it would be called great in the kingdom. (Matt 5:17-20) He also said that only those that “do the will of my Father” will enter the kingdom and those that don’t he called workers of lawlessness. (Matt 7:21-23) If you are lawless than you are without Torah. Yeshua also said “…it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter in the Torah to become void.” (Luke 16:17)

Now some have mistakenly taught that Rabbi Sha’ul (Paul) taught against the Torah but he actually called it “holy, just and good”. (Romans 7:12) He also said, “I continue to believe everything that accords with the Torah and everything written in the Prophets.” (Acts 24:14) He even claimed not to have violated oral torah – traditions of the fathers. (Acts 28:17). Paul also wrote “For it is not merely the hearers of Torah whom God considers righteous; rather, it is the doers of what Torah says who will be made righteous in God's sight.” (Romans 2:13)

For myself personally – through the power the Ruach HaKodesh (holy spirit) - I endeavor to observe Torah because that is what Yeshua did, and he is our ultimate example of how to live.

Then why not debate Paul's position in my thread? C'mon.... I promised to be nice. ;)

[Steve Petersen]

spiritualwoman:

Indeed, what do the scriptures teach. They teach that the temple services and related offices are eternal. Read these passages:

Passover/Unleavened Bread Exodus 12:14-20

Aaron and sons to tend the Menorah Exodus 27:20, 21

Aaron and sons to wear priestly garments Exodus 28:43

Aaron and sons to eat the heave offering Exodus 29:28

The continual burnt offering Exodus 29:42

Aaron and sons to burn incense Exodus 30:8

Aaron and sons to apply blood to altar horns Exodus 30:10

Aaron and sons to wash their hands and feet when ministering Exodus 30:19-21

Israel to observe the Sabbath Exodus 31:13, 16, 17

Aaron and sons to eat the trespass offering Leviticus 6:18

Aaron and sons to present meal offering upon anointing Leviticus 6:22

Priests not to drink wine when serving in Temple Leviticus 10:9

Israel to afflict their souls and rest on the Day of Atonement Leviticus 16:29

Israel to offer sacrifices only at the Temple Leviticus 17:5-7

Israel to observe Firstfruits Leviticus 23:12-14

Israel to observe Pentecost Leviticus 23:21

Israel to observe the Day of Atonement Leviticus 23:28-31

Israel to observe Feast of Tabernacles Leviticus 23:39-41

Aaron and sons to blow the trumpets Numbers 10:7, 8

Rules of various offerings Numbers 15:3-15

Levites to perform the Temple services Numbers 18:20-23

Ceremony of the Red Heifer Numbers 19:1-10

Cities of refuge Numbers 35:29

Priesthood of Aaron and his sons Deuteronomy 18:5

[Steve Petersen]

Psa 119:44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.

[spiritualwoman]

Though the law remains, like a DOS program no longer used underneath the Windows operating system, until the 1000 years ends (which has yet to commence), neither Jew nor Gentile keeps the law because if you are a Christian you would have died to the law on the cross with Christ. This is my prayer for you. Let us praise God Jesus came to fill up the law which sets the the law in the dispensation of the law COMPLETELY ASIDE that was only for the Jews, not even for the Jew today, because they ought to give their lives to Christ by faith and walk by the Spirit of truth in them. No longer seek for the Messiah, for He has already come, but seek for the second coming of Christ. Dont judaize Christianity and try to keep th Sabbath, otherwise you have to stone people to death who work on Saturday. Praise the Lords Day is quite unlike the Sabbath, for the Lords day is full of vitality and spiritual activity, to work and to play.

Praise the Lord!
Awomen!

[Texasbluebonnet]

The true Jew is the C*hristian??? That's the biggest load of bull I've ever heard...

So a person who rejects G-d, rejects his Torah, and worships a man is a true Jew, while a person who worships G-d alone and lives according to his Torah is no longer a Jew!?

So exactly how many Jews do you plan to convert with this type of garbage???

First of all, I respect you and your views and do not intend any offense. But Christian is just a title. It's not an ethnicity or anything. I guess I just don't see the problem. It's a name or title or label or something. That's what it is to me anyway.

[spiritualwoman]

To be a Christian is not nothing, it is everything. It means you have chosen the cross of Christ and have been chosen by God before the foundations of the world, have died to the law, are a member of the body of Christ, have eternal life and the Holy Spirit indwelling your spirit regenerated with Gods life. If you are a Christ you will live out eternity in the new city. If not, there is the hell. People who are not saved cant understand what it really is to be a Christian; there are lots of judaizers out there especially the Roman Church who center themselves in Rome as a false earthly promise, have many written codes, intermediary priesthood and praise their physical buildings. Dont be deceived by their pretentious, contradictory and conflicting ecumenicalism. Is Christ so divided? Of couse not. Does Christ pretend to be ecumenical then has a pope who says the only way to be saved is in the Roman Church? If a church says it is Roman is it the Church? Seems obvious to me.

[visionary]

To be a Christian is not nothing, it is everything. It means you have chosen the cross of Christ and have been chosen by God before the foundations of the world, have died to the law, are a member of the body of Christ, have eternal life and the Holy Spirit indwelling your spirit regenerated with Gods life. If you are a Christ you will live out eternity in the new city. If not, there is the hell. People who are not saved cant understand what it really is to be a Christian; there are lots of judaizers out there especially the Roman Church who center themselves in Rome as a false earthly promise, have many written codes, intermediary priesthood and praise their physical buildings. Dont be deceived by their pretentious, contradictory and conflicting ecumenicalism.Hanging on to this is like hanging onto a fist full of sand... and it just keeps seeping through your fingers.

We are not free from the law, for we are judged by it. We have our savior who has paid the penalty for our sins, if we but just ask Him to forgive us. Sin is defined by the law. Without the law there is no definition of sin.

[spiritualwoman]

I agree visionary, as you admit, you are not free from the law, but under the law, thus rejecting that those in Christ have died to the law. How sad for you, for you know not what you do is racially motivated, not spiritual reality. Due to this spiritual jealousy, the Jews killed Christ. As the OT predicted Jewish folk would continue to reject Christ, preach false Christs, until as a nation one day when they would accept the true Christ when He steps down on the mount of olives. When the Bible says the true Jew is a the Christian, dont forsake this fact as some Messianics here have said they reject this statement. My prayers go out to you.

[Tpolg]

How can you be free from The Torah?
That is like being free from breathing, or being free from your bride on your wedding night. The Torah tells us how to be pleasing to The Creator, why would you want to be free from it? It is sweeter than honey, it is like water to a parched soul, it is life.
Not all of it applies to you, that is true. Not all of it applies to me, or to any one person for that matter. No one instrument plays every note, but we should all look to the score to know our part.

[A_Pioneer]

Acts 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."

If you do not obey these four commandments you can not fellowship with anyone who is a Hebrew.

This is the entry level; for all who come to the Living God.

You could continue to associate with your Pagan Temple Cohorts, but you can not enter in to any Holy Temple.
But I understand you are happy with your Pagan Fellows.

Please don't come near me as I have been to Mikveh and am clean.

Shalom

[Wags]

Though the law remains, like a DOS program no longer used underneath the Windows operating system, until the 1000 years ends (which has yet to commence), neither Jew nor Gentile keeps the law because if you are a Christian you would have died to the law on the cross with Christ. This is my prayer for you. Let us praise God Jesus came to fill up the law which sets the the law in the dispensation of the law COMPLETELY ASIDE that was only for the Jews, not even for the Jew today, because they ought to give their lives to Christ by faith and walk by the Spirit of truth in them. No longer seek for the Messiah, for He has already come, but seek for the second coming of Christ. Dont judaize Christianity and try to keep th Sabbath, otherwise you have to stone people to death who work on Saturday. Praise the Lords Day is quite unlike the Sabbath, for the Lords day is full of vitality and spiritual activity, to work and to play.

Praise the Lord!
Awomen!

That makes zero sense! if Yeshua said He came not to destroy it then how can it be no longer in effect? If He said it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away, then how can the Torah be set aside?

Paul says the law shows us what sin is - how can you repent if you don't know what sin is?

Where do you find this "Lord's Day" you keep refering to in scripture? Can you show me from scripture that the 7th day sabbath has been done away with?

You are living your life based on the lies of men instead of the truth found in scripture. You are boldly trying to lead people into lawlessness. The very lawlessness that Yeshua said would keep people from entering the kingdom.

[Wags]

When the Bible says the true Jew is a the Christian, dont forsake this fact as some Messianics here have said they reject this statement. My prayers go out to you.

Got scripture to back up that outlandish claim?

In fact do you have any scritpure (in context) to back up any of your statments?

[spiritualwoman]

The law is not the Torah. The Torah is the first 5 books of the OT. The law was not introduced until 430 years later. The Torah is part of the 66 books of Gods Word. Dont confuse the two. The Torah has in it the law which the Bible says if you are Christian you have died to and if you are not you will try to keep.

[spiritualwoman]

The Bible says the true Jew is the Christian spiritually speaking. There is still the Jew of nationality in which the nation of Israel will be the center of all nations one day, but will not be rewarded with reigning as kings and priests as shall the overcomer believers for the 1000 years.

Romans 2:2829
28 For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the Jewish ceremony of circumcision. 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not a cutting of the body but a change of heart produced by Gods Spirit. Whoever has that kind of change seeks praise from God, not from people.

[spiritualwoman]

The Sabbath was a sign of covenant just for Israel only under the dispensation of the law. We are in a new dispensation now in resurrection life for Jesus was raised from the dead, not on the 7th day of the week but the 1st day. The 1st day is also the 8th day and 8 is the number of resurrection. Christians have no Sabbath day. The Lords day is the day Jesus was resurrected on. Why are you against the Lords day of resurrection?

[spiritualwoman]

Those who try to keep the Sabbath show us their true colors: trying to keep the law. It is a sure tell sign of not accepting the resurrection day of the Lord.

[spiritualwoman]

The True Jew is one who having died to law still remains a Jew, but now is Christian like the disciples. The law of the OT was a shadow of things to come which have now arrived through the death on the cross of our Lord and Savior. The law remains, but be no longer under the law if you truly died on the cross with Christ. Many will accept His substitution pretentiously, but deny co-death with Him so they have not died to the law at all. The Bible says if you live by the law you shall die by the law.

[ChazakEmunah]

The Bible says the true Jew is the Christian spiritually speaking. There is still the Jew of nationality in which the nation of Israel will be the center of all nations one day, but will not be rewarded with reigning as kings and priests as shall the overcomer believers for the 1000 years.

Romans 2:2829
28 For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the Jewish ceremony of circumcision. 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not a cutting of the body but a change of heart produced by Gods Spirit. Whoever has that kind of change seeks praise from God, not from people.
Ahh... so now we come back to Paul.... How fitting....

[spiritualwoman]

Awomen.

[Wags]

Still waiting for you to provide scripture references to back up your claims that Sunday is the "Lords Day" and that the 7th Day Sabbath has been set aside.

Where do you find any reference to the 8th day in scritpure? Why do you deny God the day that HE set aside in favor of one made up in the imagination of men?

[A_Pioneer]

Awomen.
This is just Blatant Replacement Theology!
Spiritualwoman will be like a Tax Collector to me.
Where is that ignore button?
I don't eat from the garbage pail!

[spiritualwoman]

When you say replacement theology that is not correct because Jesus came to fill up the law, not to replace it. In filling up the law afterward Jesus died on the cross so that you may die to the law with Him. The law pointed to Christ because nobody could keep the law but Christ. Now we are under a new covenant. When you overlook the verses given and do not respond to them, yet ask for evidence again, it does not matter how much evidence you receive, you have avoided the evidence first given, so why would you listen to the next group of evidence? This is what shows us that you are not dealing forthrightly and come across racial.

[visionary]

You die to sin not the law. When I fulfill the law of the highway, I saying I am obedient to it. It does not mean I did away with it.

[spiritualwoman]

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control; against such there is no law” (5.22-23).

Should anyone tell you: You must keep the law, you must keep the Sabbath day, you ought to realize that if you try to keep one single item in the book of law you unwittingly declare that Christ has not died for you, and therefore you cast away the work of Christ.

Let us compare the words in Romans 6.14 with 3.19—Sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace.

This indicates that believers are not under law. But to whom do the things of the law speak?

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God. The things of the law speak to those who are under the law. Since we Christians are not under law, these things of the law do not speak to us.

I have no problem you saying you are under the law, but you contradict Gods Word if you then say you are a Christian.

Know that a very small percentage of those who say they are saved are really saved.

[Kalanit]

:doh: :doh: :doh:

[spiritualwoman]

Say AMEN! Dont hit yourself.

[Devasha]

Yeshua Messiah is a true Prophet of Yisra'el--

Deu 13:1 "When there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he shall give you a sign or a wonder,
Deu 13:2 and the sign or the wonder shall come true, of which he has spoken to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other mighty ones – which you have not known – and serve them,’
Deu 13:3 do not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for יהוה your Elohim is trying you to know whether you love יהוה your Elohim with all your heart and with all your being.
Deu 13:4 "Walk after יהוה your Elohim and fear Him, and guard His commands and obey His voice, and serve Him and cling to Him.
Deu 13:5 "And that prophet or that dreamer of dreams is put to death, because he has spoken apostasy against יהוה your Elohim – who brought you out of the land of Mitsrayim and redeemed you from the house of bondage – to make you stray from the way in which יהוה your Elohim commanded you to walk. Thus you shall purge the evil from your midst.

If one sets aside the commands of YHWH Elohim and encourages His people to stop guarding His commands, stop obeying His voice, stop serving Him and stop clinging to Him, then s/he is a false prophet and worthy of death.

The witnesses against Stephen were FALSE--

Act 6:13 And they set up false witnesses who said, "This man does not cease to speak blasphemous words against this set-apart place and the Torah,
Act 6:14 for we have heard him saying that this יהושע of Natsareth shall overthrow this place and change the institutes which Mosheh delivered unto us."

Thus, the TRUTH is that Yeshua of Natsareth DID NOT change the institutes which Mosheh delivered unto us.

For those who are married, how do you 'fulfill' your marriage vows? For those who are not married, how would you want a possible future spouse to 'fulfill' his/her marriage vows to you?

Why would anyone NOT want to live by every word out of the mouth of YHWH?

Mat 4:4 But He answering, said, "It has been written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of יהוה.’ "

If one does not believe Mosheh, then one has no idea how to believe Yeshua Messiah--

Joh 5:46 "For if you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, since he wrote about Me.
Joh 5:47"But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My words?"

There are various monetary rewards up for grabs out there (at least one at $1,000,000) for whomever can show in the Scriptures where the 7th-day Sabbath was changed to the sun-day and/or where YHWH Elohim commands that the first day of the week be kept holy. So far, no one has been able to provide Scriptural proof--not even one single solitary verse--to support a claim for a sun-day sabbath for the very simple reason that it does not exist.

[spiritualwoman]

I wouldnt win that award because the Bible teaches us that the Sabbath wasnt changed at all. Rather the law has been put aside for those who have died on the cross with Christ. The Lords day is a day that has nothing to do with the Sabbath-the Sabbath was a day of rest, whereas the Lords is a day of vitality and spiritual activity. There simply is no Christian Sabbath.

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control; against such there is no law” (5.22-23).

Should anyone tell you: You must keep the law, you must keep the Sabbath day, you ought to realize that if you try to keep one single item in the book of law you unwittingly declare that Christ has not died for you, and therefore you cast away the work of Christ.

Let us compare the words in Romans 6.14 with 3.19—Sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace.

This indicates that believers are not under law. But to whom do the things of the law speak?

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God. The things of the law speak to those who are under the law. Since we Christians are not under law, these things of the law do not speak to us.

I have no problem you saying you are under the law, but you contradict Gods Word if you then say you are a Christian.

Know that a very small percentage of those who say they are saved are really saved.

[Devasha]

Should anyone tell you: You must keep the law, you must keep the Sabbath day, you ought to realize that if you try to keep one single item in the book of law you unwittingly declare that Christ has not died for you, and therefore you cast away the work of Christ.

Then we'd all better stop trying to love YHWH our Elohim with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength.

It's not just 'anyone' telling you to keep the Sabbath day; it is YHWH Elohim, King of the universe.

Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to set it apart.

Jos 24:15b "But I and my house, we serve יהוה."

[spiritualwoman]

To love God is something we should all do, but not all of us should keep the law of Israel, only if you are under the law. In fact, nobody should keep the law of Israel, for Jesus has you dead to the law if you died with Him on the cross.

[Devasha]

Loving YHWH Elohim IS "an item in the book of law".

It is not the "law of Israel", YHWH tells us repeatedly it is the law of YHWH.

[Devasha]

"The Lord's Day" is the Sabbath(s) of YHWH and is not solely a day of rest.

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to set it apart.

The Sabbath is a set-apart day.
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of יהוה your Elohim.
The seventh-day Sabbath is 'a' Sabbath because there is more than one, and they are ALL Sabbaths of YHWH Elohim, not Sabbaths of the Jews.


Lev 23:2 “Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, and say to them, ‘The appointed times of יהוה, which you are to proclaim as set-apart gatherings, My appointed times, are these:
Lev 23:3 ‘Six days work is done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a set-apart gathering. You do no work, it is a Sabbath to יהוה in all your dwellings.

The seventh-day Sabbath as well as the annual Sabbaths (delineated in Leviticus 23) are set-apart gatherings. Some versions say 'holy convocation'. It is a time for YHWH's people to gather together to focus on Him rather than the mundane things of the world that have to be dealt with during the other days of the week. These are the appointed times of YHWH--He clearly says, "My appointed times". Why would anyone want to miss such important appointments?

Isa 66:22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make stand before Me,” declares יהוה, “so your seed and your name shall stand.
Isa 66:23 “And it shall be that from New Moon to New Moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,” declares יהוה.

Here it is plain to see that even in the new heavens and new earth, the New Moon and the Sabbaths (the appointed times of YHWH) will be kept, and ALL flesh (not just Jews) will WORSHIP before Him (not just rest) on those days.

Isa 58:13 “If you do turn back your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on My set-apart day, and shall call the Sabbath ‘a delight,’ the set-apart day of יהוה ‘esteemed,’ and shall esteem it, not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor speaking your own words,
Isa 58:14 then you shall delight yourself in יהוה. And I shall cause you to ride on the heights of the earth, and feed you with the inheritance of Yaʽaqoḇ your father. For the mouth of יהוה has spoken!”

Sabbaths are not only days of rest, but also when the people of YHWH leave the work-day world behind to gather together to worship Him, "a day of vitality and spiritual activity".

Yeshua and all of His disciples kept Sabbath. Why would one want to do any differently than they? Sha'ul (Paul) said to follow his example. He kept all the Sabbaths and all the Torah. He even had a Nazirite vow.

[Devasha]

Some of the difficulty in understanding the teachings of Paul and rightly dividing them is that he speaks about different 'laws'. There is the written Torah, and there is the oral Torah, or rabbinical law. There is also a scroll called 'The Works of the Law'. If one does not know these things, then one is vulnerable to twisting the words of Paul to his/her own destruction, as Peter warned--

2Pe 3:15 and reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also our beloved brother Sha’ul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him,
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these matters, in which some are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the other Scriptures.

[spiritualwoman]

Paul is not talking about different laws. There is no Christian Sabbath. Today, we can work on the Sabbath, the Lords Day as there is no special day in Christianity. The Lords day is a day we can usually meet conveniently for the Lords sake.

[spiritualwoman]

What does Paul teach concerning the Sabbath? He maintains that the Sabbath is a thing that has passed away: having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross . . . Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christs (Col. 2.14,16-17).The bond written in ordinances refers to the entire law.

I love how God protects me from my accusers.

On the cross our Lord has blotted out the entire law. This is because the law attacks us and demands us to be holy. But we are sinful. So the Lord was crucified for us. The Judaizers argue that what has been blotted out is the ceremonial law, but that the moral law was not taken away. Feast days, new moons and Sabbath days are not classified by them as being under ceremonial law. Therefore, they must be kept, even as the moral law under the Ten Commandments.However, the Scriptures do not make such a distinction.

[HeatherMicaela]

I love how God protects me from my accusers.


and who are your accusers?
You cam on here and started accusing us!



Tell me, do you honor your father and mother?
Do you try not to covet?
do you make a point not to bow down to idols?

why do you do these but ignore the Sabbath?

Gather with your church on sunday if you want. And wednesday and every other day. Go on suday to remember that Yeshua rose. Who cares. BUt to say that the sabbath has been done away with is wrong. It is still there and it should still be kept.

Now you are not going to "die in your sins" for not following it - Yeshua's sacrifice made sure of that. But you'd be amazed how blessed you'd be if you just did.

I am speaking in love - but if you continue to come back with accusations and such, You may be the first person in any message board that I push "igonore" for.

[spiritualwoman]

Matt. 12.1-13 is the question of the Sabbath. Of the Ten Commandments nine are moral, but only one is ceremonial—the keeping of the sabbath. If the observance of the sabbath is set aside, it must indicate a change in dispensation: that somehow Gods special relationship with the nation of Israel has been temporarily broken off.

In the Old Testament, the sabbath possessed special meanings: (1) that the keeping of the sabbath was to remember God’s rest, (2) that according to Ezekiel 20.12 the sabbath was a sign of Gods covenant with the children of Israel, and (3) that according to Deuteronomy 5.15 the observing of the sabbath by the Jewish people was to remember how they were redeemed.

In vv.3-4, Christ has not said that eating while hungry is necessarily a pardonable act. The question He means to address himself to is whether or not the sabbath should be kept, not whether there is a special allowance for the sabbath. If the Lord should maintain that because David was hungry it was all right for him to eat the shewbread, where would this leave the law?

Christ could never support such a conclusion. What, then, is He really saying in this section? He is simply intimating here that what was originally given to the priest to eat can now be eaten by the king also.

[spiritualwoman]

8 is the number of resurrection. The Lord Jesus was resurrected from the dead on the first day of the week, which is the eighth day. The transfiguration of our Lord Jesus happened on the eighth day (Luke 9.28), which event foretells His power and His appearing (2 Peter 1.16-18). The name Jesus in Greek is composed of six letters, all of them carrying various numerical values respectively. By adding these numerical values, the total number in the Greek name for Jesus comes to 888. The disciples gathered to break bread on the first day of the week, which is the eighth day (Act. 20.7); this is a new day for gathering. On the eighth day, also, the disciples gave their offering (1 Cor. 16.1,2), which action was not according to the statute of the Old Covenant.

[spiritualwoman]

In the incident before us from Matthew 12 we find the Lord telling the Pharisees that the priest was no longer the head, that the King of all kings was now head. The history of the Jews was to undergo another and even more radical change—this time with respect to the sabbath. The rejection of the Lord by the Jews was the cause for the change of position with regard to the sabbath day. This change did not affect the other nine commandments, but it greatly influenced the commandment concerning the sabbath.

[HadassahSukkot]

:hug: Devasha, let your light so shine!

[HadassahSukkot]

In the incident before us from Matthew 12 we find the Lord telling the Pharisees that the priest was no longer the head, that the King of all kings was now head. The history of the Jews was to undergo another and even more radical change—this time with respect to the sabbath. The rejection of the Lord by the Jews was the cause for the change of position with regard to the sabbath day. This change did not affect the other nine commandments, but it greatly influenced the commandment concerning the sabbath.


You did not just go there... :doh:

I am suprised, you hold the "New Testament" over the whole of scriptures as if it holds prominence above everything, yet you have completely ignored what it truly says... :sick:

Nowhere in Matthew 12 does Y'shua do away with the preisthood, nor the sacrifices, nor the Holy Temple. Do you not remember that the Temple was made for G-d to have a place on this earth that HE Called home? (Oh wait, that is in the "OLD TESTAMENT" which is blotted out.... so I guess it isn't relavent? )


Now you say that Jews didn't follow Y'shua and that if they did, that they did not keep Torah. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/laughing/lol.gif

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....


I seem to remember something about this in Acts...


Chapter 21
8 The next day Paul went with us to meet with James, and all the elders of the Jerusalem church were present. 19 After greeting them, Paul gave a detailed account of the things God had accomplished among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 After hearing this, they praised God. And then they said, “You know, dear brother, how many myriads of Jews have also believed, and they all follow the law of Moses very seriously.


Oh wait, I seem to remember Paul saying of himself in his own defense... implying that he still keeps Torah "to this day"...

Chapter 22...

3 Then Paul said, “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, and I was brought up and educated here in Jerusalem under Gamaliel. As his student, I was carefully trained in our Jewish laws and customs. I became very zealous to honor God in everything I did, just like all of you today. 4 And I persecuted the followers of the Way, hounding some to death, arresting both men and women and throwing them in prison. 5 The high priest and the whole council of elders can testify that this is so. For I received letters from them to our Jewish brothers in Damascus, authorizing me to bring the Christians from there to Jerusalem, in chains, to be punished. 6 “As I was on the road, approaching Damascus about noon, a very bright light from heaven suddenly shone down around me. 7 I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’
8 “‘Who are you, lord?’ I asked.
“And the voice replied, ‘I am Jesus the Nazarene, the one you are persecuting.’ 9 The people with me saw the light but didn’t understand the voice speaking to me.
10 “I asked, ‘What should I do, Lord?’
“And the Lord told me, ‘Get up and go into Damascus, and there you will be told everything you are to do.’
11 “I was blinded by the intense light and had to be led by the hand to Damascus by my companions. 12 A man named Ananias lived there. He was a godly man, deeply devoted to the law, and well regarded by all the Jews of Damascus. 13 He came and stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, regain your sight.’ And that very moment I could see him!
14 “Then he told me, ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and hear him speak. 15 For you are to be his witness, telling everyone what you have seen and heard. 16 What are you waiting for? Get up and be baptized. Have your sins washed away by calling on the name of the Lord.’
17 “After I returned to Jerusalem, I was praying in the Temple and fell into a trance. 18 I saw a vision of Jesus[c (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults2.php?passage1=Acts22&book_id=51&version1=51&tp=28&c=22#fen-NLT-27685c)] saying to me, ‘Hurry! Leave Jerusalem, for the people here won’t accept your testimony about me.’
19 “‘But Lord,’ I argued, ‘they certainly know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believed in you. 20 And I was in complete agreement when your witness Stephen was killed. I stood by and kept the coats they took off when they stoned him.’
21 “But the Lord said to me, ‘Go, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles!’”


We are also shown in chapter 24 more of Paul's defense...

10 The governor then motioned for Paul to speak. Paul said, “I know, sir, that you have been a judge of Jewish affairs for many years, so I gladly present my defense before you. 11 You can quickly discover that I arrived in Jerusalem no more than twelve days ago to worship at the Temple. 12 My accusers never found me arguing with anyone in the Temple, nor stirring up a riot in any synagogue or on the streets of the city. 13 These men cannot prove the things they accuse me of doing. 14 “But I admit that I follow the Way, which they call a cult. I worship the God of our ancestors, and I firmly believe the Jewish law and everything written in the prophets. 15 [B]I have the same hope in God that these men have, that he will raise both the righteous and the unrighteous. 16 Because of this, I always try to maintain a clear conscience before God and all people.


And strangely enough in Titus chapter 2 we are told...

[Y'shua] Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Now, I wonder... what are those "good works" outside of Torah? Oh wait, what is Iniquity?
Because if we are OUTSIDE of Torah - what you call "THE LAW"... and we say it is bad an unprofitable... what is good or iniquity unless we measure it by the standards of G-d himself from the WHOLE of Scripture???


Hm.. boggles the mind it does!


In your defense, there was something nailed to the Cross... but it was not the Torah nor the instructions G-d gave outside of it... it was the handwriting of ordinances against us..

Colossians 2
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Funny that statement... outside of Judaism it makes no sense and is deferred to something else..

Wonder what that handwriting of ordinances is... I wonder.. :scratch:
Perhaps it is one of those books G-d keeps record in that shows all the iniquity we are full of?

In fact, these words right there are reminiscent of another passage speaking of a wife suspected of adultery...

Numbers 5
And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot [them] out with the bitter water:

Now, I wonder.. considering what G-d sees as the Bride.. what could those things be that are being blotted out against us?

It couldn't be contained in that set of books you so despise and say are nailed to the cross now, could they?

I believe they are... in fact, I think we read these very soon!! :idea:


Deuteronomy 11
And it shall come to pass, when the YHVH thy God hath brought thee in unto the land whither thou goest to possess it, that thou shalt put the blessing upon mount Gerizim, and the curse upon mount Ebal.



From Deuteronomy 27

11 That same day Moses also gave this charge to the people: 12 “When you cross the Jordan River, the tribes of Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph, and Benjamin must stand on Mount Gerizim to proclaim a blessing over the people. 13 And the tribes of Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan, and Naphtali must stand on Mount Ebal to proclaim a curse. 14 “Then the Levites will shout to all the people of Israel:
15 ‘Cursed is anyone who carves or casts an idol and secretly sets it up. These idols, the work of craftsmen, are detestable to the Lord.’
And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’
16 ‘Cursed is anyone who dishonors father or mother.’
And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’
17 ‘Cursed is anyone who steals property from a neighbor by moving a boundary marker.’
And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’
18 ‘Cursed is anyone who leads a blind person astray on the road.’
And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’
19 ‘Cursed is anyone who denies justice to foreigners, orphans, or widows.’
And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’
20 ‘Cursed is anyone who has sexual intercourse with one of his father’s wives, for he has violated his father.’
And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’
21 ‘Cursed is anyone who has sexual intercourse with an animal.’
And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’
22 ‘Cursed is anyone who has sexual intercourse with his sister, whether she is the daughter of his father or his mother.’
And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’
23 ‘Cursed is anyone who has sexual intercourse with his mother-in-law.’
And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’
24 ‘Cursed is anyone who attacks a neighbor in secret.’
And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’
25 ‘Cursed is anyone who accepts payment to kill an innocent person.’
And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’
26 ‘Cursed is anyone who does not affirm and obey the terms of these instructions.’
And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’

And Wonder of Wonders, chapter 28 shows all the good that comes from obeying G-d.

As a recipient of one who has inherited those curses, I have to tell you, I chose life, because I was tired of death.

One of the signatures in my email, because it is so important to me:

Deuteronomy 30
19 “Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, so that you and your descendants might live! 20 You can make this choice by loving the Lord your God, obeying him, and committing yourself firmly to him. Thisis the key to your life. And if you love and obey the Lord, you will live long in the land the Lord swore to give your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

[Steve Petersen]

Matt. 12.1-13 is the question of the Sabbath. Of the Ten Commandments nine are moral, but only one is ceremonial—the keeping of the sabbath. If the observance of the sabbath is set aside, it must indicate a change in dispensation: that somehow Gods special relationship with the nation of Israel has been temporarily broken off.

In the Old Testament, the sabbath possessed special meanings: (1) that the keeping of the sabbath was to remember God’s rest, (2) that according to Ezekiel 20.12 the sabbath was a sign of Gods covenant with the children of Israel, and (3) that according to Deuteronomy 5.15 the observing of the sabbath by the Jewish people was to remember how they were redeemed.

In vv.3-4, Christ has not said that eating while hungry is necessarily a pardonable act. The question He means to address himself to is whether or not the sabbath should be kept, not whether there is a special allowance for the sabbath. If the Lord should maintain that because David was hungry it was all right for him to eat the shewbread, where would this leave the law?

Christ could never support such a conclusion. What, then, is He really saying in this section? He is simply intimating here that what was originally given to the priest to eat can now be eaten by the king also.
It is also a rehearsal as are all the festivals given in Leviticus 23. The Hebrew there calls them 'mikrei kodesh' usually translated as 'sacred assemblies.' 'Mikrei kodesh also has the meaning of 'sacred reherasals.' This ties in with the idea given in the prophets:

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
During that day the Temple sacrifices will be reinstated:

Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

[Steve Petersen]

Acts 25:7 And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove. 8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

[Devasha]

Paul is not talking about different laws.

Please Scripturally demonstrate this assertion by showing where in Torah eating with gentiles is forbidden.

What law was Peter hypocritically following when "those of the circumcision" were around?

Gal 2:11 And when Kĕpha had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was at fault.
Gal 2:12 For before some came from Yaʽaqoḇ, he was eating with the gentiles, but when they came, he began to withdraw and separate himself, in fear of those of the circumcision.

[Devasha]

In Colossians, Sha'ul was writing to new converts who were formerly pagans and encouraging them in the face of their former (pagan) associates now judging them regarding their new lifestyle in Messiah--

Col 2:16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths –
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of what is to come – but the Body of the Messiah.

Obviously, Jews who ate kosher and kept the moedim (appointed times--festivals, new moons, Sabbaths) certainly would not be judging them for doing exactly what they do.

The only ones qualified to judge in the matters of YHWH is the body of Messiah, not pagans. Pagans don't have Sabbaths.

And as was pointed out before, all of these things are rehearsals of things to come, so they are not done away with.

[Devasha]

Act 17:10 And the brothers immediately sent Sha’ul and Sila away by night to Beroia, who, having come, went into the congregation of the Yehuḏim.
Act 17:11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonike, who received the word with great eagerness, and searched the Scriptures daily, if these words were so.


Which Scriptures were the Bereans searching? And where were they doing this daily searching?

The Bereans knew that they could not come to the Truth through backwards interpretation. They knew they had to go back to the foundation and then overlay what they were being told by the emissaries on that to see if it "were so".

One thing they would have checked is--

Deu 13:1 "When there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he shall give you a sign or a wonder,
Deu 13:2 and the sign or the wonder shall come true, of which he has spoken to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other mighty ones – which you have not known – and serve them,’
Deu 13:3 do not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for יהוה your Elohim is trying you to know whether you love יהוה your Elohim with all your heart and with all your being.
Deu 13:4 "Walk after יהוה your Elohim and fear Him, and guard His commands and obey His voice, and serve Him and cling to Him.
Deu 13:5 "And that prophet or that dreamer of dreams is put to death, because he has spoken apostasy against יהוה your Elohim – who brought you out of the land of Mitsrayim and redeemed you from the house of bondage – to make you stray from the way in which יהוה your Elohim commanded you to walk. Thus you shall purge the evil from your midst.

If the emissaries had been teaching them that Yeshua wanted them to "stray from the way in which YHWH your Elohim commanded you to walk", they would have known that such a person would have been a false prophet, a false messiah, and they would not have accepted Him or the correspondingly false teachings of the emissaries.

Mat 5:17"Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete.
Mat 5:18 "For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah tell all be done.
Mat 5:19 "Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.

The King, Yeshua Messiah, is the greatest in the reign of the heavens. Therefore, He does and teaches all the commands of Torah, thus proving to the Bereans and those with ears to ear that He is King.

Deu 17:18 "And it shall be, when he sits on the throne of his reign, that he shall write for himself a copy of this Torah in a book, from the one before the priests, the Lĕwites.
Deu 17:19 "And it shall be with him, and he shall read it all the days of his life, so that he learns to fear יהוה his Elohim and guard all the Words of this Torah and these laws, to do them,

[GerTzedek]

Hadassah: your post ROCKED

[QUOTE]Chapter 21
8 The next day Paul went with us to meet with James, and all the elders of the Jerusalem church were present. 19 After greeting them, Paul gave a detailed account of the things God had accomplished among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 After hearing this, they praised God. And then they said, “You know, dear brother, how many myriads of Jews have also believed, and they all follow the law of Moses very seriously.

I love the translation that words it, "How many thousands of Jews have also believed, and they are all zealots for Torah." And that was 20 some odd years after Pentecost!

Oh wait, I seem to remember Paul saying of himself in his own defense... implying that he still keeps Torah "to this day"...

Yeap, he went to his death insisting he was faithful to Torah, even to halakha (the traditions).

Keep on keeping on, cool lady!

[Devasha]

The disciples gathered to break bread on the first day of the week, which is the eighth day (Act. 20.7); this is a new day for gathering.

Act 20:7 And on the first day of the week,the taught ones having gathered together to break bread, Sha’ul, intending to depart the next day, was reasoning with them and was extending the word till midnight.

This was Havdalah, and there was nothing new about it since it had long been a custom for those gathered together on the Sabbath to stay together after sunset ended the Sabbath (Saturday evening) in order to extend the sweetness of Sabbath, continuing the fellowship and sharing another meal together. It was and is the time of Havdalah, not some "new day for gathering". Only backward interpretation comes up with this erroneous idea.

On the eighth day, also, the disciples gave their offering (1 Cor. 16.1,2), which action was not according to the statute of the Old Covenant.

Sha'ul is merely directing the Corinthian assembly to set aside their benevolent offerings for those in need so that it would be all ready when he got there. Again, the reason for specifying the first day of the week (after sunset Saturday evening) is for convenience--the people were already gathered together for Shabbat and Havdalah.

This was all completely according to "statute of the Old Covenant". It was keeping the Sabbath not to deal with money matters until after the close of Sabbath. Benevolence--caring for needs of the poor, the orphans, the widows, the Levites--is fully according to statute and was not something new.

[Devasha]

:hug: Devasha, let your light so shine!

Shabbat Shalom! :hug:

[spiritualwoman]

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christs (Col. 2.14,16-17).

Therefore, the Sabbath need not be kept, nor types of meat, nor types of drink, nor a feast day, nor a new moon.

You would be breaking the law therefore if you dont accept this. The flesh can rationalize anything away, bu the Word is clear here!

[spiritualwoman]

Please get out your Bible and read all of Colossians 2. Do that right now if you want deliverance from Judaism and Messianics, and have a life in Christ.

[spiritualwoman]

Today, all believers are the priesthood. The Bible calls Christians the royal priesthood. Hence, God did away with the priesthood of old. To try to keep the Levitical priesthood has nothing to do with Christianity, but is a cult.

[Devasha]

In the incident before us from Matthew 12 we find the Lord telling the Pharisees that the priest was no longer the head, that the King of all kings was now head.

Mat 12:1 At that time יהושע went through the grain fields on the Sabbath. And His taught ones were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain, to eat.
Mat 12:2 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, "Look, Your taught ones are doing what is not right to do on the Sabbath!"
Mat 12:3 But He said to them, "Have you not read what Dawiḏ did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
Mat 12:4 how he went into the House of Elohim and ate the showbread which was not right for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 "Or did you not read in the Torah that on the Sabbath the priests in the Set-apart Place profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6 "But I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the Set-apart Place.
Mat 12:7 "And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering,’ you would not have condemned the blameless.
Mat 12:8 "For the Son of Aḏam is Master of the Sabbath."

This is all about Yeshua challenging the Pharisees (as were all of His conversations with them) on their customs that were in conflict with His Torah. Essentially the Pharisees had violated Torah--

Deu 12:32 "All the words I am commanding you, guard to do it – do not add to it nor take away from it.

--by building an excessive fence around it with their man-made laws which added to it.

Examining His encounters with the Pharisees with this in mind makes it perfectly clear what He is talking about.

There is no law in the Torah of YHWH that forbids plucking grain and eating it on the Sabbath from hand to mouth when one is hungry, so what Yeshua is addressing is the man-made law against doing that. It is the man-made laws which were in conflict with His Torah that He came to do away with.

Yeshua has always been the Master of the Sabbath
since He gave the Torah in the first place.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with Elohim.
Joh 1:3All came to be through Him, and without Him not even one came to be that came to be.
Yeshua is the Living Torah.

1Co 10:1 For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brothers, that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,
1Co 10:2 and all were immersed into Mosheh in the cloud and in the sea,
1Co 10:3 and all ate the same spiritual food,
1Co 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed, and the Rock was Messiah.

[Devasha]

Please get out your Bible and read all of Colossians 2. Do that right now if you want deliverance from Judaism and Messianics, and have a life in Christ.

Instead, why don't you read it in Greek with an understanding of historical and geographical context?

[Devasha]

Today, all believers are the priesthood. The Bible calls Christians the royal priesthood. Hence, God did away with the priesthood of old. To try to keep the Levitical priesthood has nothing to do with Christianity, but is a cult.

This has not happened yet, i.e. this prophecy is yet to be fulfilled--

Isa 66:20 &qu