Do Messianics Try To Keep the Law?

[visionary]

I think of it this way, when the good Lord opens up our Book of Life and sees all the sins have been repented of and returning to living right, then He can say "Perfect"

[Rainie]

I think of it this way, when the good Lord opens up our Book of Life and sees all the sins have been repented of and returning to living right, then He can say "Perfect"

:thumbsup::amen: :thumbsup:

[Devasha]

Like the skit Livehouse did, "Everything (http://youtube.com/watch?v=cyheJ480LYA)"; that is me in my relationship to Him.

Thank you, Hadassah, for sharing this link. I bawled my eyes out!

In light of all He does, has done and will do for us, why would we ever want to do anything but--

Deu 13:4 "Walk after יהוה your Elohim and fear Him, and guard His commands and obey His voice, and serve Him and cling to Him.

[czygyny]

This may have been addressed before, but wasn't the Sabbath created by YHWH well before Abraham, Issac, and on up to before Moses ever lived? Like before there were any hebrew people or nation of Israel formed? Well before Noah, if I remember correctly.

I think it was right there at the start of creation...so it goes beyond being a "Jewish" thing and becomes an "all humankind" sort of thing, and was given to be kept by all, for all, forever.

And I wonder just what 'holy spirit' is telling this woman that I am not saved? He that dwells within me has told me otherwise. I am ingrafted into the commonwealth of Israel, and quite happy with that.

[Bananna]

Yes Sabbath was created by God before Hebrew people.

Sabbaths plural is another story.

[PastorJoey]

I stopped by just to find out from the proverbial "horses mouth" just what messianics, or whatever the proper terminology would be, actually believe.

I only want to be educated as to what is actually taught and have no interest in debate. My questions are sincere in wanting to know your answer, not to further any hidden agenda of my own.

In response to another poster Gertzedek said,
....
....The answer to your question is simple: If ye love Me, keep My commandments. - John 14:15 The point is not whether we have achieved perfection, but whether we are, with G-d's grace, working towards complete obedience. Faithfulness.


My question is...

To which commandments then is Christ [the Messiah] referring to? Ceremonial observance, Levitical or moral commands? Or all of the above?

From your post, its appears you are referring to the moral Law or Ten commandments.:wave:

[Steve Petersen]

I stopped by just to find out from the proverbial "horses mouth" just what messianics, or whatever the proper terminology would be, actually believe.

I only want to be educated as to what is actually taught and have no interest in debate. My questions are sincere in wanting to know your answer, not to further any hidden agenda of my own.

In response to another poster Gertzedek said,



My question is...

To which commandments then is Christ [the Messiah] referring to? Ceremonial observance, Levitical or moral commands? Or all of the above?

From your post, its appears you are referring to the moral Law or Ten commandments.:wave:
John, a Jew, said this:

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Why parse this any farther? The Commandments are those God gave Israel.

[PastorJoey]

John, a Jew, said this:

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Why parse this any farther? The Commandments are those God gave Israel.
Thanks for responding Steve,
Please explain to me from your point of view what it was then that caused the Apostle Paul to say that the church at Galatia was "bewitched".

Gal 3:1-3 KJV
(1) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
(2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:10-11 KJV
(10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
(11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Please explain these verses to me from your perspective.
Thanks

[Steve Petersen]

Thanks for responding Steve,
Please explain to me from your point of view what it was then that caused the Apostle Paul to say that the church at Galatia was "bewitched".

Gal 3:1-3 KJV
(1) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
(2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:10-11 KJV
(10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
(11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Please explain these verses to me from your perspective.
Thanks

I thought you didn't want to debate. ;)

Separate the idea of justification from keeping the Law. Israel was redeemed BEFORE she was given the commandments. See the parallel? Redemption is aside from keeping the commandments.

[PastorJoey]

I thought you didn't want to debate. ;)

Separate the idea of justification from keeping the Law. Israel was redeemed BEFORE she was given the commandments. See the parallel? Redemption is aside from keeping the commandments.
If I gave the impression of debate I apologize. It was an honest question that I feel you answered well for me.

I believe in keeping what is known as the 10 Commandments [knowing they do not save me]. What I am trying to find out is how or why is it scriptural for me to keep all the feasts, holidays and ordinances under the New Covenant?

[Steve Petersen]

If I gave the impression of debate I apologize. It was an honest question that I feel you answered well for me.

I believe in keeping what is known as the 10 Commandments [knowing they do not save me]. What I am trying to find out is how or why is it scriptural for me to keep all the feasts, holidays and ordinances under the New Covenant?
Can you find any other biblically prescribed holy days?

God included the stranger (only the usage of the Hebrew 'ger') in His holy days.

[PastorJoey]

Can you find any other biblically prescribed holy days?

God included the stranger (only the usage of the Hebrew 'ger') in His holy days.

No I am not aware of any other "biblically prescribed" holydays.
However it is my understanding that All the Jewish Holydays were but types and shadows of Christ who was to come and their observance no longer needful once Christ, the one who cast the shadow. has come.

Col 2:13-17 KJV
(13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
(14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
(15)And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
(16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
(17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

I am also aware that under the Old Covenant, outsiders could be included. Abram himself was not a "Jew" when God called him, he was a gentile from Ur- a Pagan land. Because of His obedience & faith in God, God promised His "seed" would be blessed. This "seed"turned out to be Christ the Messiah Himself and not "seeds" as of many. Meaning that all who are Christ's, are Abrahams seed.
Gal 3:27-29 KJV
(27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

My understanding based on these scriptures is that I dont have to become a Jew in order to be in Covenant with God. I need to be born again, a new creation all together.

[Steve Petersen]

No I am not aware of any other "biblically prescribed" holydays.
However it is my understanding that All the Jewish Holydays were but types and shadows of Christ who was to come and their observance no longer needful once Christ, the one who cast the shadow. has come.

Col 2:13-17 KJV
(13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
(14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
(15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
(16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
(17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Did you notice the use of the future tense? Paul wrote this after Christ's ascension.

'Shadows of thing still to come!'

The holy days given by God are also called commemorations. We can look backward AND forward. How cool is that!

In regards to the 'judging' aspect here I would like to present another perspective. Traditionally we are taught that Law keepers were judging believers because the believers didn't keep the holy days (though Act shows otherwise.) Remembering that most of Paul's listeners were former pagans, is it possible that the 'judging' that was going on was that of former pagan friends/family against Gentile believers because those believers were keeping 'new moons and sabbaths etc?' Consider the future aspect of these holy days:

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

There is your sabbath and new moon.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

There's one festival.

[PastorJoey]

Col 2:16-17 KJV

(16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
(17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.



Did you notice the use of the future tense? Paul wrote this after Christ's ascension.

'Shadows of thing still to come!'

The holy days given by God are also called commemorations. We can look backward AND forward. How cool is that!

I dont think I understand your interpretation of this passage. Let me make my understanding clear so you can better answer my questions.

"Since Christ has nailed all the ordinances of the law which were held against us to His cross, then we need not allow anyone to condemn or judge us for not observing Holydays, new moons, etc... Why? Because these things were but a shadow of Christ who has come". He is the fulfillment of what all these other things could but only represent.

[Steve Petersen]

I dont think I understand your interpretation of this passage. Let me make my understanding clear so you can better answer my questions.

"Since Christ has nailed all the ordinances of the law which were held against us to His cross, then we need not allow anyone to condemn or judge us for not observing Holydays, new moons, etc... Why? Because these things were but a shadow of Christ who has come". He is the fulfillment of what all these other things could but only represent.
I completely understand your perspective. I grew up with it. I think that perspective is wrong.

[PastorJoey]

Did you notice the use of the future tense? Paul wrote this after Christ's ascension.

'Shadows of thing still to come!'

The holy days given by God are also called commemorations. We can look backward AND forward. How cool is that!

In regards to the 'judging' aspect here I would like to present another perspective. Traditionally we are taught that Law keepers were judging believers because the believers didn't keep the holy days (though Act shows otherwise.) Remembering that most of Paul's listeners were former pagans, is it possible that the 'judging' that was going on was that of former pagan friends/family against Gentile believers because those believers were keeping 'new moons and sabbaths etc?' Consider the future aspect of these holy days:

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

There is your sabbath and new moon.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

There's one festival.
I noticed you anwswered my question already. I'll look into your suggestion of this passage.
Thanks

[PastorJoey]

[quote=Steve Petersen;39251172]Did you notice the use of the future tense? Paul wrote this after Christ's ascension. 'Shadows of thing still to come!'

In regards to the 'judging' aspect here I would like to present another perspective. Traditionally we are taught that Law keepers were judging believers because the believers didn't keep the holy days (though Act shows otherwise.) Remembering that most of Paul's listeners were former pagans, is it possible that the 'judging' that was going on was that of former pagan friends/family against Gentile believers because those believers were keeping 'new moons and sabbaths etc?' ...quote]

I am still considering your perspective and by the way am thankful you are taking the time to explain this to me. These are the kind of answers I am looking for. I've purposed that if I am going to believe in something or not believe in it, it would be base3d on what the adherents say about it and not the critics.

While reading the context further, I came across these verses...

Col 2:20-23 KJV
(20) .....Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
(21) (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
(22) Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
(23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

To what ordinances is Paul referring to? They apparently have returned to some form of ordinance that they should not have.

[Steve Petersen]

[quote=Steve Petersen;39251172]Did you notice the use of the future tense? Paul wrote this after Christ's ascension. 'Shadows of thing still to come!'

In regards to the 'judging' aspect here I would like to present another perspective. Traditionally we are taught that Law keepers were judging believers because the believers didn't keep the holy days (though Act shows otherwise.) Remembering that most of Paul's listeners were former pagans, is it possible that the 'judging' that was going on was that of former pagan friends/family against Gentile believers because those believers were keeping 'new moons and sabbaths etc?' ...quote]

I am still considering your perspective and by the way am thankful you are taking the time to explain this to me. These are the kind of answers I am looking for. I've purposed that if I am going to believe in something or not believe in it, it would be base3d on what the adherents say about it and not the critics.

While reading the context further, I came across these verses...

Col 2:20-23 KJV
(20) .....Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
(21) (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
(22) Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
(23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

To what ordinances is Paul referring to? They apparently have returned to some form of ordinance that they should not have.
Judaism was not the only religion that has some aesthetic (sp?) practices. Paul mentions another example of this type of religion:

1 Tim 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Judaism never forbid marriage, (except perhaps for the Essenes, even that is debatable) so Paul must be referring to some other religion. Aside, notice how foods come up in this passage too?

[Henaynei]

Many Messianics *try* to keep the Law, all *anyone* could EVER do is/was *try* to keep the Law, no one EVER has except Yeshua so it is quite clear that the Law saves no one... I doubt even ONE person on this forum has even the smallest idea that the Law saves them .... but nevertheless G-d said all the Law and the feasts and festivals were "forever." He did not say they were just until Messiah came :) They are His instructions on how to live a life He considers holy.

John 14
15 "If you love me, you will keep my commands;
21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me, and the one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him." What ARE the commandments?

Lev 19:18
Don't take vengeance on or bear a grudge against any of your people; rather, love your neighbor as yourself; I am ADONAI.

Deut 6:5; 10:12; 11:13; 13:3; 30:6
...and you are to love ADONAI your God with all your heart, all your being and all your resources.

Matt. 22
40 "All of the Torah and the Prophets are dependent on these two mitzvot (commandments)."

Keeping the Law *never* saved anyone - even the rabbis have said this from the beginning .... it is trust in G-d, as evidenced by our willing and humble obedience (to the best of our ability), that saves us....

and what about Acts 15 and 21 - where the "gentiles which believe" were given very specific rules: abstain from fornication, from things strangled, from things sacrificed to idols and from blood....

Acts 15
13 Ya'akov broke the silence to reply. "Brothers," he said, "hear what I have to say. 14 Shim'on has told in detail what God did when he first began to show his concern for taking from among the Goyim a people to bear his name. 15 And the words of the Prophets are in complete harmony with this for it is written, 16 '"After this, I will return; and I will rebuild the fallen tent of David. I will rebuild its ruins, I will restore it, 17 so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, that is, all the Goyim who have been called by my name," 18 says ADONAI, who is doing these things.' All this has been known for ages. 19 "Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God. 20 Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat."

Acts 21
25 "However, in regard to the Goyim who have come to trust in Yeshua, we all joined in writing them a letter with our decision that they should abstain from what had been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled and from fornication."

and then ....

James 2
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith but has no actions to prove it? Is such "faith" able to save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food, 16 and someone says to him, "Shalom! Keep warm and eat hearty!" without giving him what he needs, what good does it do? 17 Thus, faith by itself, unaccompanied by actions, is dead. 18 But someone will say that you have faith and I have actions. Show me this faith of yours without the actions, and I will show you my faith by my actions! 19 You believe that "God is one"? Good for you! The demons believe it too - the thought makes them shudder with fear! 20 But, foolish fellow, do you want to be shown that such "faith" apart from actions is barren? 21 Wasn't Avraham avinu declared righteous because of actions when he offered up his son Yitz'chak on the altar? 22 You see that his faith worked with his actions; by the actions the faith was made complete; 23 and the passage of the Tanakh was fulfilled which says, "Avraham had faith in God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness." He was even called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is declared righteous because of actions and not because of faith alone. 25 Likewise, wasn't Rachav the prostitute also declared righteous because of actions when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another route? 26 Indeed, just as the body without a spirit is dead, so too faith without actions is dead.

and

1 John 3:4
4 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah - indeed, sin is violation of Torah.

All of those were written long after Yeshua rose ....

While yes, the feasts and festivals and G-d's calendar are prophetic, not all of the prophesies have yet come ... and a type and shadow may have many layers ... it is quite clear to some that the things to which you refer foreshadow both Yeshua's first and coming appearing ...

And we know that G-d intends for the feasts and festivals to continue because He tells us that in the New Jerusalem Sabbath and feasts, including the Feast of Tabernacles - which we are celebrating this time of year - will be kept by all on the earth.... :)

[PastorJoey]

Many Messianics *try* to keep the Law, all *anyone* could EVER do is/was *try* to keep the Law, no one EVER has except Yeshua so it is quite clear that the Law saves no one... I doubt even ONE person on this forum has even the smallest idea that the Law saves them .... but nevertheless G-d said all the Law and the feasts and festivals were "forever." He did not say they were just until Messiah came :) They are His instructions on how to live a life He considers holy.

John 14
15 "If you love me, you will keep my commands;
21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me, and the one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him." What ARE the commandments?

Lev 19:18
Don't take vengeance on or bear a grudge against any of your people; rather, love your neighbor as yourself; I am ADONAI.

Deut 6:5; 10:12; 11:13; 13:3; 30:6
...and you are to love ADONAI your God with all your heart, all your being and all your resources.

Matt. 22
40 "All of the Torah and the Prophets are dependent on these two mitzvot (commandments)."

Keeping the Law *never* saved anyone - even the rabbis have said this from the beginning .... it is trust in G-d, as evidenced by our willing and humble obedience (to the best of our ability), that saves us....

and what about Acts 15 and 21 - where the "gentiles which believe" were given very specific rules: abstain from fornication, from things strangled, from things sacrificed to idols and from blood....

Acts 15
13 Ya'akov broke the silence to reply. "Brothers," he said, "hear what I have to say. 14 Shim'on has told in detail what God did when he first began to show his concern for taking from among the Goyim a people to bear his name. 15 And the words of the Prophets are in complete harmony with this for it is written, 16 '"After this, I will return; and I will rebuild the fallen tent of David. I will rebuild its ruins, I will restore it, 17 so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, that is, all the Goyim who have been called by my name," 18 says ADONAI, who is doing these things.' All this has been known for ages. 19 "Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God. 20 Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat."

Acts 21
25 "However, in regard to the Goyim who have come to trust in Yeshua, we all joined in writing them a letter with our decision that they should abstain from what had been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled and from fornication."

and then ....

James 2
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith but has no actions to prove it?Is such "faith" able to save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food, 16 and someone says to him, "Shalom! Keep warm and eat hearty!" without giving him what he needs, what good does it do? 17 Thus, faith by itself, unaccompanied by actions, is dead. 18 But someone will say that you have faith and I have actions. Show me this faith of yours without the actions, and I will show you my faith by my actions! 19 You believe that "God is one"? Good for you! The demons believe it too - the thought makes them shudder with fear! 20 But, foolish fellow, do you want to be shown that such "faith" apart from actions is barren? 21 Wasn't Avraham avinu declared righteous because of actions when he offered up his son Yitz'chak on the altar? 22 You see that his faith worked with his actions; by the actions the faith was made complete; 23 and the passage of the Tanakh was fulfilled which says, "Avraham had faith in God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness." He was even called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is declared righteous because of actions and not because of faith alone. 25 Likewise, wasn't Rachav the prostitute also declared righteous because of actions when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another route? 26 Indeed, just as the body without a spirit is dead, so too faith without actions is dead.

and

1 John 3:4
4 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah - indeed, sin is violation of Torah.

All of those were written long after Yeshua rose ....

While yes, the feasts and festivals and G-d's calendar are prophetic, not all of the prophesies have yet come ... and a type and shadow may have many layers ... it is quite clear to some that the things to which you refer foreshadow both Yeshua's first and coming appearing ...

And we know that G-d intends for the feasts and festivals to continue because He tells us that in the New Jerusalem Sabbath and feasts, including the Feast of Tabernacles - which we are celebrating this time of year - will be kept by all on the earth.... :)
These perspectives of yours and Steves are interesting. I have especially liked your quotes on war and patriotism. Hope you dont mind me putting them to use. I have enjoyed our conversations.

[Steve Petersen]

These perspectives of yours and Steves are interesting. I have especially liked your quotes on war and patriotism. Hope you dont mind me putting them to use. I have enjoyed our conversations.
It has been fun. Good luck!

[Henaynei]

These perspectives of yours and Steves are interesting. I have especially liked your quotes on war and patriotism. Hope you dont mind me putting them to use. I have enjoyed our conversations.I don't mind at all, as long as you include the attributation to John Stuart Mill :)

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[Steve Petersen]

I read this and simply thought "Wow, who are any of us to determine who will or will not be saved." :scratch:

Spiritualwoman, I would suggest that you really spend sometime in prayer over this.
It's fascinating to me to see all the judgement that is placed on Messianics and this judgement is done in the name of Grace. Very sad. :cry:
I'm not Messianic but I applaud them for their beliefs they show that they have hearts after God and they show that they have a great understanding of Grace.
It takes a lot of Faith to follow/keep God's Law, it reveals their humbleness and submission to God the Father.
I do not agree with all of what they believe but I do admire them and I enjoy learning from them.

May God Bless You All :prayer:
Rain
If no one has said it yet, 'Thank You' for your kind words.

[PastorJoey]

Actually, if there is not a temple or tabernacle or even altar that is dedicated to G-d in the place he chose (Jerusalem, Temple mount) - one cannot offer the sacrifices, or they are in direct violation of the Torah itself, which says NOT to offer sacrifices EXCEPT in the place G-d chose and dwells at.

So.. that being said.. moot point.

Keep on beating that horse though.. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/fighting/deadhorse.gif
Let me make sure that I understand you right. Are you saying that God made an exception to His command to make sacrifices just because there is no temple to make them in? And are you saying that if you did have a temple at Jerusalem in the Temple mount, you would be making sacrifices even under the New Covenant?

[Steve Petersen]

Let me make sure that I understand you right. Are you saying that God made an exception to His command to make sacrifices just because there is no temple to make them in? And are you saying that if you did have a temple at Jerusalem in the Temple mount, you would be making sacrifices even under the New Covenant?
I know you addressed this to Hadassah. I hope she won't mind if I get in here. (Taps Hadassah on the shoulder.)

If you read Acts you will find Paul paid the expenses of believers who were under a Nazarite vow after he was a believer (at the behest of James no less). This vow requires sacrifice (see Numbers 6):

Acts 21:18-24 (KJV) And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are [not 'were'] all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

He himself brought alms and offerings to the Temple:

Acts 24:17 Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings. 18 Whereupon certain Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with multitude, nor with tumult.
In his testimony to Festus he claims never to have offended against the Temple:

Acts 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

Other believers gathered regularly in the Temple and participated in 'the Prayers (the Greek has the defininte article).'

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in [the] prayers.




All this was way after Yeshua's resurrection.

[PastorJoey]

I know you addressed this to Hadassah. I hope she won't mind if I get in here. (Taps Hadassah on the shoulder.)

If you read Acts you will find Paul paid the expenses of believers who were under a Nazarite vow after he was a believer (at the behest of James no less). This vow requires sacrifice (see Numbers 6):

Acts 21:18-24 (KJV) And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are [not 'were'] all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

He himself brought alms and offerings to the Temple:

Acts 24:17 Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings. 18 Whereupon certain Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with multitude, nor with tumult.
In his testimony to Festus he claims never to have offended against the Temple:

Acts 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

Other believers gathered regularly in the Temple and participated in 'the Prayers (the Greek has the defininte article).'

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in [the] prayers.




All this was way after Yeshua's resurrection.

So is what you are concluding is that Jesus' sacrifice at Calvary was not the once and for all sacrifice? Help me with this.

[Steve Petersen]

So is what you are concluding is that Jesus' sacrifice at Calvary was not the once and for all sacrifice? Help me with this.
There are two realms involved here: the earthly and the heavenly. Hebrews portrays the earthly Temple as modeled after the heavenly Temple, then seems to show that the two-fold division of the earthly Temple (Holy Place and Holy of Holies) represent This Present World and the World to Come.

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

The sacrifices in the earthly Temple were to enable mortal (earthly) men to enter the physical (earthly) representation of the Presence of the Devouring Fire that is our God.

Jesus death allows us into the ultimate Presence of God in the World to Come.

Two realms, two systems. They do not infringe on or mitigate the other.

[Lulav]

Actually, perfection is a great word to use. When someone sins, and then does t'shuva for that sin, HaShem is merciful and forgives us. From the moment that forgiveness is imparted, HaShem looks at you without seeing the previous sin. ie... He looks at you as though you are perfect. This is such a beautiful picture of the mercy of HaShem, I am surprised that so many tend to overlook it.:thumbsup:

[Lulav]

Yeah, yeah, I know... ;) I think you and I would agree that most people have a distorted concept of "perfect." Most people think it means to never do anything wrong. Whereas, both you and I would agree that being blameless (read perfect) before HaShem simply means doing t'shuva when you have sinned. WE ( Messianics) do have to be aware though of what Yeshua said: "Be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect."

That kind of establishes a definition of perfect, so we can only be perfect when we let go of ourselves and allow Messiah to live through us, he who is perfect, and sinned not.

[Lulav]

If I gave the impression of debate I apologize. It was an honest question that I feel you answered well for me.

I believe in keeping what is known as the 10 Commandments [knowing they do not save me]. What I am trying to find out is how or why is it scriptural for me to keep all the feasts, holidays and ordinances under the New Covenant? May I ask why you feel compelled to keep the '10 commandments'? These are a covenant made with Israel. The 613 are all in relationship to the 10 and they are a breakdown of what Yeshua said were the two greatest, Love G-d and Love your neighbor.

You Love G-d by being obedient to his 'house rules' and you love your neighbor as you love and care for yourself.

This of course doesn't mean you need to build your own temple and perform sacrifices. You are the temple of the most High, that is where you make your sacrifices, within your heart, that is where you make repentance.

All 613 are not for any one person, they are community of G-d rules and regulations, for the household of G-d. As Daniel prophesied the daily sacrifice for sin has ceased , that part of the Torah has been fulfilled in Yeshua, but all has not been fulfilled, thus those who love him, keep the commandments of G-d ( Rev 12:17 & 14:12)

[visionary]

So is what you are concluding is that Jesus' sacrifice at Calvary was not the once and for all sacrifice? Help me with this.Yeshua's sacrifice is once and for all regarding sin. There are other sacrifices, that have nothing to do with sin, such as the Nazarene vow sacrifice.

[PastorJoey]

May I ask why you feel compelled to keep the '10 commandments'? These are a covenant made with Israel. The 613 are all in relationship to the 10 and they are a breakdown of what Yeshua said were the two greatest, Love G-d and Love your neighbor.

You Love G-d by being obedient to his 'house rules' and you love your neighbor as you love and care for yourself.

This of course doesn't mean you need to build your own temple and perform sacrifices. You are the temple of the most High, that is where you make your sacrifices, within your heart, that is where you make repentance.

All 613 are not for any one person, they are community of G-d rules and regulations, for the household of G-d. As Daniel prophesied the daily sacrifice for sin has ceased , that part of the Torah has been fulfilled in Yeshua, but all has not been fulfilled, thus those who love him, keep the commandments of G-d ( Rev 12:17 & 14:12)

Well for one, Jesus didnt come to redeem me so I could be free to commit murder or the act of adultery, etc...

He did however come to provide Himself as a blood sacrifice that not merely covers sin as the blood of bulls & goats did, but actually cleanses sin. Therefore those offerings are obsolete, null and void.

[visionary]

Let me make sure that I understand you right. Are you saying that God made an exception to His command to make sacrifices just because there is no temple to make them in? And are you saying that if you did have a temple at Jerusalem in the Temple mount, you would be making sacrifices even under the New Covenant?Are you thinking that all sacrifices had to do with sin? Do you not know of the other types of sacrifices and what they were for?

[Lulav]

I dont think I understand your interpretation of this passage. Let me make my understanding clear so you can better answer my questions.

"Since Christ has nailed all the ordinances of the law which were held against us to His cross, then we need not allow anyone to condemn or judge us for not observing Holydays, new moons, etc... Why? Because these things were but a shadow of Christ who has come". He is the fulfillment of what all these other things could but only represent.

Yshua nailed nothing to the tree, what was nailed to the tree by the Father is the written conviction against us. I think you are paraphrasing Col 2:14, but this is were error sets in. It says: blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. Now if you understand the ways of heaven, you will know that there are books in heaven. These books record ( handwritten) our sins and our good deeds. There is also a book called the book of life. Spiritually when we believe in Messiah and become born into the kingdom, we are washed clean of our sins, and the record book that recorded them, where they are written , they have been 'blotted out', meaning covered over so they can't be read any longer.

G-ds laws are good, his ways are good, they show us what not to do, what is sin. How can that change or be done away with?

[Lulav]

Well for one, Jesus didnt come to redeem me from committing murder or the act of adultery, etc...

He did however come to provide Himself as a blood sacrifice that not merely covers sin as the blood of bulls & goats did, but actually cleanses sin. Therefore those offerings are obsolete, null and void. I don't see where you answered my question regarding the 10? Anyway, Sacrifice and offerings are two entirely different things. Sacrifices will still be enacted in the coming kingdom, were you aware?
( Isaiah 56)

[HadassahSukkot]

Thank you Steve, I couldn't have said it better.

There are sacrifices that could be done without violation of Y'shua's sacrifice. Purification (Niddah/Childbirth etc), Nazarite vow, Birth of the Firstborn... Firstfruits.... Not to mention Freewill or Thank Offerings

I'm still learning, so I hope you don't mind if I just leave my post at that.

[Steve Petersen]

Well for one, Jesus didnt come to redeem me so I could be free to commit murder or the act of adultery, etc...

He did however come to provide Himself as a blood sacrifice that not merely covers sin as the blood of bulls & goats did, but actually cleanses sin. Therefore those offerings are obsolete, null and void.
Earthly sacrifices never atoned for sin. Only repentance could do that. It seems to be the sin offering you are referring to.

Consider these passages:

Prov 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

Prov 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

But in the future God said there will be sacrifice. Does this nullify Jesus atonement? No way! His atonement is for us in the Heavenly arena.

Jer 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. 16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. 17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; 18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

[chunkofcoal]

Thank you Steve, I couldn't have said it better.

There are sacrifices that could be done without violation of Y'shua's sacrifice. Purification (Niddah/Childbirth etc), Nazarite vow, Birth of the Firstborn... Firstfruits.... Not to mention Freewill or Thank Offerings

I'm still learning, so I hope you don't mind if I just leave my post at that.

I'm not directing this question directly at you :) but to whomever will answer.

Won't some of these things not exist in the world to come? If there'll be no marrying nor giving in marriage, no eating or drinking - things like that - then there won't be a need for sacrifices for purification or birth of the firstborn or even firstfruits, will there? :scratch: :confused:

[Steve Petersen]

I'm not directing this question directly at you :) but to whomever will answer.

Won't some of these things not exist in the world to come? If there'll be no marrying nor giving in marriage, no eating or drinking - things like that - then there won't be a need for sacrifices for purification or birth of the firstborn or even firstfruits, will there? :scratch: :confused:
I think there is a difference between the Messianic Kingdom and the World to Come.

The Messianic Kingdom is the Millenial reign of Messiah, in my opinion.

The World to Come is what comes after: a New Heaven and a New Earth. There will be no earthly Temple there according to Revelation.

[Henaynei]

So is what you are concluding is that Jesus' sacrifice at Calvary was not the once and for all sacrifice? Help me with this. your perspective is erroneous, although consistent with most of the doctrine of the Gentile Church historically. What *you* are concluding is that the sacrifices prior to His death were efficacious, they were not. The sacrifices offered with bitachon, kavannah and t'shuvah (trust, willful deliberate intent and repentance) looked forward to G-d's redemption and those after with bitachon, kavannah and t'shuvah look bad in memoriam, rememberance.

The Only sacrifice that was EVER efficacious was Yeshua's. From the foundations of the Earth.

[PastorJoey]

Are you thinking that all sacrifices had to do with sin? Do you not know of the other types of sacrifices and what they were for?
Do you make blood sacrifices?
In fact all sacrifices in the OT do have to do with sin. What sacrifices were instituted before Adams transgression?

[PastorJoey]

Earthly sacrifices never atoned for sin. Only repentance could do that. It seems to be the sin offering you are referring to.

Consider these passages:

Prov 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

Prov 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

But in the future God said there will be sacrifice. Does this nullify Jesus atonement? No way! His atonement is for us in the Heavenly arena.

Jer 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. 16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. 17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; 18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
I understand that sacrifice and repentance went hand in hand. Repentance alone would never have removed the curse without a sacrifice.

[visionary]

Do you make blood sacrifices?
In fact all sacrifices in the OT do have to do with sin. What sacrifices were instituted before Adams transgression?one - we do not make blood sacrifices. two - not all sacrifices are for sin. You would sacrifice your life to save another.... it has nothing to do with sin.

[PastorJoey]

your perspective is erroneous, although consistent with most of the doctrine of the Gentile Church historically. What *you* are concluding is that the sacrifices prior to His death were efficacious, they were not. The sacrifices offered with bitachon, kavannah and t'shuvah (trust, willful deliberate intent and repentance) looked forward to G-d's redemption and those after with bitachon, kavannah and t'shuvah look bad in memoriam, rememberance.

The Only sacrifice that was EVER efficacious was Yeshua's. From the foundations of the Earth.

Please tell me what you really think^_^ . I'll just have to stick with my "erroneous" perspective until I can get some solid meat scripture that I am to offer blood sacrifices or any other offering other than making my body a living sacrifice or a free will offering of my substance.

[PastorJoey]

one - we do not make blood sacrifices. two - not all sacrifices are for sin. You would sacrifice your life to save another.... it has nothing to do with sin.
Why dont you make blood sacrifices, I mean scripturally, not just because the temple mount...?

Sacrificing my life for a friend would be sacrificing for, not sacrificing to anything. I dont think this would hardly be the same thing. What sacrifices do you make which were required in the Old Covenant?

[visionary]

I am a living sacrifice just as you.

[PastorJoey]

I am a living sacrifice just as you.
How is it then that we differ? What are you as a Messianic practicing that I am not? This is what I am trying to find out. I've read a lot of posts on this forum and some say they use crock pots or microwaves so they dont have to cook on the Sabbath...I was at a Christian book store the other day and overheard a man telling this lady that If she didnt confess all her sins by I think it was midnight [It may have been Yon Kippur] then they wouldnt be forgiven. He went on to say that most churches today are Heddenistic and fallen from its Jewish roots. Well guess what I dont have an ounce of Jewish blood in me that I am aware of. I am Gentile through and through and further than that In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, for all are one in Him.
I wish someone would explain these things to me scripturally.
What sacrifices am I to make that the Jews under the Old Covenant were to make?

What will observing Jewish rituals serve that the shed blood of Christ will not?

Gods morals I can understand, but the rituals, feasts, etc... these are all types and shadows of Christ who has come.

[PastorJoey]

your perspective is erroneous, although consistent with most of the doctrine of the Gentile Church historically. What *you* are concluding is that the sacrifices prior to His death were efficacious, they were not. The sacrifices offered with bitachon, kavannah and t'shuvah (trust, willful deliberate intent and repentance) looked forward to G-d's redemption and those after with bitachon, kavannah and t'shuvah look bad in memoriam, rememberance.

The Only sacrifice that was EVER efficacious was Yeshua's. From the foundations of the Earth.

No I do not believe that blood sacrifices were efficacious like Jesus sacrifice. His was eternal and cleansed sin, they were only annual at best and merely covered sin.

If by efficacious you mean 'the sacrifices were made in our stead' [their blood was shed instead of ours]. Yes I do believe they were efficacious, but only to a certain degree. They could only do so much. Efficacious means 'able to produce the intended effect'. Well, those sacrifices accomplished their intended effect, did they not? To cover sin until a better sacrifice could be made.

[Henaynei]

No I do not believe that blood sacrifices were efficacious like Jesus sacrifice. His was eternal and cleansed sin, they were only annual at best and merely covered sin.

If by efficacious you mean 'the sacrifices were made in our stead' [their blood was shed instead of ours]. Yes I do believe they were efficacious, but only to a certain degree. They could only do so much. Efficacious means 'able to produce the intended effect'. Well, those sacrifices accomplished their intended effect, did they not? To cover sin until a better sacrifice could be made. yes I meant salvific.... and this is not about what you believe. It is about what is in scripture. Judaism never believed the sacrifices were redemptive, nothing isn scripture states that the sacrifices save, it has always been faith/trust that saved, faith/trust in G-d's everlasting promise ... see Heb 11.

The sacrifices represented that which was to come. The sacrifices that will resume once the Temple is erected are G-d ordained and prophesied as "acceptable" to G-d. Those sacrifices will be in obedience to G-d's comandment that these things were forever and those which are "acceptable" will be those offered in trust, heart intent and with repentance.

Isaiah 56
6 "And the foreigners who join themselves to ADONAI to serve him, to love the name of ADONAI, and to be his workers, all who keep Shabbat and do not profane it, and hold fast to my covenant, 7 I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all peoples." 8 Adonai ELOHIM says, he who gathers Isra'el's exiles: "There are yet others I will gather, besides those gathered already."

[PastorJoey]

yes I meant salvific.... and this is not about what you believe. It is about what is in scripture. Judaism never believed the sacrifices were redemptive, nothing isn scripture states that the sacrifices save, it has always been faith/trust that saved, faith/trust in G-d's everlasting promise ... see Heb 11.

The sacrifices represented that which was to come. The sacrifices that will resume once the Temple is erected are G-d ordained and prophesied as "acceptable" to G-d. Those sacrifices will be in obedience to G-d's comandment that these things were forever and those which are "acceptable" will be those offered in trust, heart intent and with repentance.


We could go round and round about what is "true" so as not to sound dogmatic or closed minded I say "I believe". Besides I am not here to change any minds but only to get some answers.

I do not believe OT sacrifices were redemptive. It is impossible that the blood of bulls & goats should take away sin. God accepted and ordained them as a temporary solution for a spiritual problem. What they did do was provide a temporary covering of the sin nature of mankind.

[Henaynei]

We could go round and round about what is "true" so as not to sound dogmatic or closed minded I say "I believe". Besides I am not here to change any minds but only to get some answers.

I do not believe OT sacrifices were redemptive. It is impossible that the blood of bulls & goats should take away sin. God accepted and ordained them as a temporary solution for a spiritual problem. What they did do was provide a temporary covering of the sin nature of mankind.temporary in the same way a blue tarp is a temporary roof... looking forward to and temporarily holding the place of that which is real and sufficient, true. But scripture also says the sacrifices will be reinstated when the Temple is erected and that accpetable sacrifices and burnt offerings will be offered there. I agree these will not be salvific either.... they will look back in memorial just as those earlier ones looked forward in hope...

I also agree that anyone who does feel that these future sacrifices are salvific or who believes that they negate or vilify Yeshua's sacrifice should not participate in the activities of the Temple.

[PastorJoey]

temporary in the same way a blue tarp is a temporary roof... looking forward to and temporarily holding the place of that which is real and sufficient, true. But scripture also says the sacrifices will be reinstated when the Temple is erected and that accpetable sacrifices and burnt offerings will be offered there. I agree these will not be salvific either.... they will look back in memorial just as those earlier ones looked forward in hope...

I also agree that anyone who does feel that these future sacrifices are salvific or who believes that they negate or vilify Yeshua's sacrifice should not participate in the activities of the Temple.
Thank you for answering. Could you please give the scripture references for sacrifices being reinstated and God ordained? I am assuming this will be after the second coming? Or are you referring to the first half of daniels week when Antichrist then breaks his covenant with Israel?

[Henaynei]

:) please forgive me, I gave this in the post just prior to my last one but I failed to make it noticeable :)

Isaih 56 is generally acknowledged as prophetic

Isaiah 56
6 "And the foreigners who join themselves to ADONAI to serve him, to love the name of ADONAI, and to be his workers, all who keep Shabbat and do not profane it, and hold fast to my covenant, 7 I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all peoples." 8 Adonai ELOHIM says, he who gathers Isra'el's exiles: "There are yet others I will gather, besides those gathered already."

[Steve Petersen]

I'm dropping out of this conversation for a while. Too many voices all saying the same thing. I don't want Pastor Joey to get the impression we are ganging up on him. ;)

I would just like to pass this bit of advice to you Pastor. I grew up in an evangelical/fundamentalist church. For 40 years I thought I knew everything the OT had to say about the Law. Problem was, I only knew about the Law from what the NT said about it (mostly negative at first sight.) I started to read through the books of Moses and began to find out that my understanding of the Law was biased.

I would encourage you to read Exodus and Deuteronomy for a fresh look at the Torah in its own words. Then we can have a meaningful conversation.

Peace to you!

[Henaynei]

I'm sorry Steve, allow me to drop out - you gentlemen should talk together ....

[PastorJoey]

I'm sorry Steve, allow me to drop out - you gentlemen should talk together ....
Youve both helped me understand your position well. I havent felt ganged up on, nothing I couldnt handle anyway:D .

[visionary]

any other questions?

[PastorJoey]

any other questions?
Thats all for now. You, Steve & Henaynei have been very kind to answer me even when not sure of my intentions. I may be back later.
Thank you :wave:

[GerTzedek]

Pastor:

In Judaism, there was always Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. On that day, the offering done by the priests in the holy of holies atoned for the sins of all the people.

MJ tends to see this offering as a way of looking forward in time to the one and only true sacrifice. When someday the temple is rebuilt and this sacrifice resumes, it will then look BACK in time to that one perfect sacrifice.

Or at least, so is one line of poetic theology. Atonement was not always part of the theology of the Church. In the beginning, it was Ransom, Redemption... The atonement metaphor was adopted later in history as a means to compensate for the shortcomings of the ransom/redemption metaphors.

In the end, we know that something happened with that death and resurrection. We sense it, we experience it, we see it evidenced in the changing of lives. But trying to understand that mystery? Putting it into words?

Theologians try and try. And they pretty much do an okay job. But in the end... Words will never really say.

[Rainie]

Hey All,
I know this is probably an obvious comment but right now most of us (here) are keeping the "Feast of Tabernacles" as outlined in Leviticus 23.
I'm not "Messianic" per-say but I'm learning a lot about Torah observance and I'm keeping the Sabbaths etc.
I find it very interesting that "ALL MANKIND" will be keeping the "Feast of Tabernacles" in the New Millennium.
Whether Jew, Gentile, Male, Female etc. it will not matter.

Sooo, since we will all be keeping it in the future, why argue against keeping it now? I'm using this Feast as an example because it is current with what most Torah Observant folks are doing right now.

I also wanted to say that I've been reading along with the last several pages of this discussion and it's VERY cool to see everyone respecting each other! Keep it up. :thumbsup:

God Bless
Rain

I'm sure everyone knows this but just in case, here is the passage that speaks to the Feast of Tabernacles.
Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

[Lulav]

I think there is a difference between the Messianic Kingdom and the World to Come.

The Messianic Kingdom is the Millenial reign of Messiah, in my opinion.

The World to Come is what comes after: a New Heaven and a New Earth. There will be no earthly Temple there according to Revelation. I fully agree with this interpretation. :thumbsup:

[Lulav]

Do you make blood sacrifices?
In fact all sacrifices in the OT do have to do with sin. What sacrifices were instituted before Adams transgression?No, they do not, for example the L-RD says that everything that opens the womb belongs to him. Those animals that were clean were sacrifices to him, for a human male child he was brought to the temple and redeemed. In other words he was brought there to G-d, but did not have to be sacrificed, payment was made By the Father to buy him back and as the first born son he lived. Some of the animals were also redeemed with another animal, a substitutionary sacrifice, for instance, for the first born of an ass, a lamb was the one who redeemed it, (how much it that like the lamb of G-d who redeemed a stubborn people? ;) ) ( Read about this in Ex 13) This harks back to the slaying of the firstborn in Egypt, and the remembrance of how it all ties in.

About making blood sacrifices, HaShem ( G-d ) said that he will only accept this sacrifices at the place were He puts his name, that place is the most disputed place on earth, wonder why? ;) Without the temple, even with the proper priesthood we still cannot make a sacrifice that would be acceptable to him. For example, the Samaritans still sacrifice at Passover, but on the wrong mountain.;

I understand that sacrifice and repentance went hand in hand. Repentance alone would never have removed the curse without a sacrifice.The curse is only something G-d himself can remove and it still hasn't happened yet.

Please tell me what you really think . I'll just have to stick with my "erroneous" perspective until I can get some solid meat scripture that I am to offer blood sacrifices or any other offering other than making my body a living sacrifice or a free will offering of my substance. There's a little more to it than that. For example Matthew 9:13 -- But you go and learn what this means: "I will have mercy, and not sacrifice".............. Mercy, that is from the NT , but this comes from the 'Old', Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of G-d more than burnt offerings.

When we look at these two things we see that they are really defining the two greatest commandments according to Yeshua:

Love the L-RD your G-d with all your heart and soul and might, and the second which is like it , Love your neighbor as yourself.

If we had the true knowledge and fear of the L-RD and knew him, then we would also be loving our neighbor and having and showing mercy, when you show mercy, you don't sin. The five of the ten commandments that apply to loving your neighbor, thou shall not kill, commit adultery, steal, lie, covet, when you don't do these things you show mercy to your neighbor.

How is it then that we differ? What are you as a Messianic practicing that I am not? This is what I am trying to find out. I've read a lot of posts on this forum and some say they use crock pots or microwaves so they dont have to cook on the Sabbath...I was at a Christian book store the other day and overheard a man telling this lady that If she didnt confess all her sins by I think it was midnight then they wouldnt be forgiven. He went on to say that most churches today are Heddenistic and fallen from its Jewish roots. Well guess what I dont have an ounce of Jewish blood in me that I am aware of. I am Gentile through and through and further than that In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, for all are one in Him.
I wish someone would explain these things to me scripturally.
What sacrifices am I to make that the Jews under the Old Covenant were to make?

What will observing Jewish rituals serve that the shed blood of Christ will not?

Gods morals I can understand, but the rituals, feasts, etc... these are all types and shadows of Christ who has come. For one thing the things written in the Bible were given to the Jewish people, but they are not the origin of them, the origin is the creator. And that creator and Messiah is Jewish. We are viewed with the same love , weither Jew or gentile, but there is a difference, mainly that the Jews have played a huge part in history for thousands of years down to this day and will till the very last day, before the kingdom comes.
What that man was talking about was the days of Teshuva. Think about this, After Yeshua was 'baptized' he went out into the wilderness for 40 days. The time period from the first day of the sixth month till Yom kippur are 40 days. At this time, per the times set by the L-RD are a time of repentance, individually and on a corporate level. Yom Kippur is the last day to repent before the doors of heaven are closed and the books are finalized. Yes you may repent of things when you do them but you don't always know what you have done. This is a time to right yourself with your fellow man and with your maker. It is a time of judgement, and there are three books taken out at this time. From a Jewish source:

According to the Talmud, God opens three books on the first day of the year; one for the thoroughly wicked, another for the thoroughly pious, and the third for the large intermediate class. The fate of the thoroughly wicked and the thoroughly pious is determined on the spot; the destiny of the intermediate class is suspended until Yom Kippur, when the fate of everyone is sealed. The liturgical piece Unetanneh Tokef (attributed to Rabbi Amnon of Mainz) states:
God, seated on His throne to judge the world, at the same time Judge, Pleader, Expert, and Witness, opens the Book of Records. It is read, every man's signature being found therein. The great trumpet is sounded; a still, small voice is heard; the angels shudder, saying, "this is the day of judgment": for God's very ministers are not pure before God. As a shepherd musters his flock, causing them to pass under his rod, so does God cause every living soul to pass before Him, to fix the limit of every creature's life and to ordain its destiny. On New-Year's Day the decree is written; on the Day of Atonement it is sealed; who shall live and who are to die....But penitence, prayer, and charity may avert the harsh decree."Yet we have something similar in the last book of the NT.

Remember the Day of Atonement is still a practice for that final day.

Rev 20:[I]12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. No I do not believe that blood sacrifices were efficacious like Jesus sacrifice. His was eternal and cleansed sin, they were only annual at best and merely covered sin.

If by efficacious you mean 'the sacrifices were made in our stead' [their blood was shed instead of ours]. Yes I do believe they were efficacious, but only to a certain degree. They could only do so much. Efficacious means 'able to produce the intended effect'. Well, those sacrifices accomplished their intended effect, did they not? To cover sin until a better sacrifice could be made. NO, you are missing the point. We are told by the prophet John , ANd all that dwell upo0n the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of likfe of the lamb Slain from the foundation of the world ( rev 13:8). All the feasts and all the sacrifices , rituals, even the tabernacle itself represents G-d and His plan of salvation, they all point to Yeshua, and that is why they have been done over and over to practice, to reherse what our Great G-d had planned and what he has done and to continually celebrate this and remember, for He is worthy of this glory.
yes I meant salvific.... and this is not about what you believe. It is about what is in scripture. Judaism never believed the sacrifices were redemptive, nothing isn scripture states that the sacrifices save, it has always been faith/trust that saved, faith/trust in G-d's everlasting promise ... see Heb 11.

The sacrifices represented that which was to come. The sacrifices that will resume once the Temple is erected are G-d ordained and prophesied as "acceptable" to G-d. Those sacrifices will be in obedience to G-d's comandment that these things were forever and those which are "acceptable" will be those offered in trust, heart intent and with repentance.

Isaiah 56
6 "And the foreigners who join themselves to ADONAI to serve him, to love the name of ADONAI, and to be his workers, all who keep Shabbat and do not profane it, and hold fast to my covenant, 7 I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all peoples." 8 Adonai ELOHIM says, he who gathers Isra'el's exiles: "There are yet others I will gather, besides those gathered already.":thumbsup:

So , Joey, are you a foreigner who has joined yourself to Adonai? are you part of 'All peoples' that want to go to G-ds house ? where you will make sacrifices in honor of the King of Glory?

We could go round and round about what is "true" so as not to sound dogmatic or closed minded I say "I believe". Besides I am not here to change any minds but only to get some answers.

I do not believe OT sacrifices were redemptive. It is impossible that the blood of bulls & goats should take away sin. God accepted and ordained them as a temporary solution for a spiritual problem. What they did do was provide a temporary covering of the sin nature of mankind. Please see above, HaShem does not make temporary 'fixes' it all has solid purpose. :)

Hey All,
I know this is probably an obvious comment but right now most of us (here) are keeping the "Feast of Tabernacles" as outlined in Leviticus 23.
I'm not "Messianic" per-say but I'm learning a lot about Torah observance and I'm keeping the Sabbaths etc.
I find it very interesting that "ALL MANKIND" will be keeping the "Feast of Tabernacles" in the New Millennium.
Whether Jew, Gentile, Male, Female etc. it will not matter.

Sooo, since we will all be keeping it in the future, why argue against keeping it now? I'm using this Feast as an example because it is current with what most Torah Observant folks are doing right now.

I also wanted to say that I've been reading along with the last several pages of this discussion and it's VERY cool to see everyone respecting each other! Keep it up.

God Bless
Rain

I'm sure everyone knows this but just in case, here is the passage that speaks to the Feast of Tabernacles.
Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Yes, Rainie , that is a great scripture to add to this. It shows that just like today, you still have a choice to go up, and celebrate, or not, but there are consequences if you don't. :)

[PastorJoey]

So , Joey, are you a foreigner who has joined yourself to Adonai? are you part of 'All peoples' that want to go to G-ds house ? where you will make sacrifices in honor of the King of Glory?


Thank you for your kind reply to my post and to answer your question, I was a stranger and a foreigner to God, but I no longer am since I have been made a fellow citizen of the household of God which is made up of neither Jew nor Gentile but who have all been made one in Christ.
Eph 2:11-19 KJV
(11) Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh....
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us [Jew and Gentile];
(15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
(16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
(17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
(18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
(19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Gal 3:19-29 KJV
(19) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made [Jesus]; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator...
(21)Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
(22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
(24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
(26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
...
(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal 3:13-16 KJV
(13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
...
(16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Christ alone is the true "seed" of Abraham and if any person be in Christ, they too are abrahams prophecied seed whether they be Jew or Gentile!

I am Abrahams seed and so are you if you are in Christ, not because of your or my ethnicity.

2 Cor. 5: 17

If any person be in Christ He is a new creation, old things past away and all things become new.


My body is the only sacrifice this Child of God will be making [including any sacrifice involving loving others with the love of God] and it will be a living one at that.

[ChazakEmunah]

Thank you for your kind reply to my post and to answer your question, I was a stranger and a foreigner to God, but I no longer am since I have been made a fellow citizen of the household of God which is made up of neither Jew nor Gentile but who have all been made one in Christ.
Eph 2:11-19 KJV
(11) Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh....
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us [Jew and Gentile];
(15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
(16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
(17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
(18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
(19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Gal 3:19-29 KJV
(19) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made [Jesus]; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator...
(21)Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
(22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
(24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
(26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
...
(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal 3:13-16 KJV
(13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
...
(16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Christ alone is the true "seed" of Abraham and if any person be in Christ, they too are abrahams prophecied seed whether they be Jew or Gentile!

I am Abrahams seed and so are you if you are in Christ, not because of your or my ethnicity.

2 Cor. 5: 17

If any person be in Christ He is a new creation, old things past away and all things become new.


My body is the only sacrifice this Child of God will be making [including any sacrifice involving loving others with the love of God] and it will be a living one at that.
Ya know, I really love it when I see Galatians quoted. It just proves my point about Paul. Thanks PastorJoey!

[Steve Petersen]

Thank you for your kind reply to my post and to answer your question, I was a stranger and a foreigner to God, but I no longer am since I have been made a fellow citizen of the household of God which is made up of neither Jew nor Gentile but who have all been made one in Christ.
Eph 2:11-19 KJV
(11) Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh....
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us [Jew and Gentile];
(15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
(16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
(17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
(18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
(19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Gal 3:19-29 KJV
(19) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made [Jesus]; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator...
(21)Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
(22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
(24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
(26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
...
(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal 3:13-16 KJV
(13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
...
(16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Christ alone is the true "seed" of Abraham and if any person be in Christ, they too are abrahams prophecied seed whether they be Jew or Gentile!

I am Abrahams seed and so are you if you are in Christ, not because of your or my ethnicity.

2 Cor. 5: 17

If any person be in Christ He is a new creation, old things past away and all things become new.


My body is the only sacrifice this Child of God will be making [including any sacrifice involving loving others with the love of God] and it will be a living one at that.


Well, so much for my resolution to sit this conversation out. ^_^

There is more than one purpose for the Torah. Indeed it points us to Messiah, but:

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

This shows that it has at least three addtional functions. Another purpose is to equip the righteous for 'good works' (BTW 'good works' in Judaism is idiomatic for 'keeping the commandments.')

There is an interesting story about Abraham from Jewish lore:

AND I WILL MAKE OF THEE A GREAT NATION (XII, 2). Said he to Him: `Yet hast Thou not caused the seventy nations to spring from Noah?' He replied: `That nation of which it is written, For what great nation is there, that hath God so nigh unto them (Deut. IV, 7), them will I raise up from thee. ' R. Berekiah said: It is not written, ' And I will give thee,' or `And I will set thee,'4 but, AND I WlLL MAKE THEE: i.e. after I have created thee as a new creation thou wilt be fruitful and multiply. Genesis Rabbah 39:11

[PastorJoey]

Well, so much for my resolution to sit this conversation out. ^_^

There is more than one purpose for the Torah. Indeed it points us to Messiah, but:

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

This shows that it has at least three addtional functions. Another purpose is to equip the righteous for 'good works' (BTW 'good works' in Judaism is idiomatic for 'keeping the commandments.')
I am in agreement with this. However I dont believe that "good works" mentioned in the new testament writtings had keeping Jewish feasts, holidays & blood sacrifices in mind.
There is an interesting story about Abraham from Jewish lore:

AND I WILL MAKE OF THEE A GREAT NATION (XII, 2). Said he to Him: `Yet hast Thou not caused the seventy nations to spring from Noah?' He replied: `That nation of which it is written, For what great nation is there, that hath God so nigh unto them (Deut. IV, 7), them will I raise up from thee. ' R. Berekiah said: It is not written, ' And I will give thee,' or `And I will set thee,'4 but, AND I WlLL MAKE THEE: i.e. after I have created thee as a new creation thou wilt be fruitful and multiply. Genesis Rabbah 39:11
I am not too sure what you were getting at by quoting the Jewish lore. Please explain further.....
Do Messianics deny the infallibility of Pauls writtings? A previous response to my post appears so.

[PastorJoey]

Ya know, I really love it when I see Galatians quoted. It just proves my point about Paul. Thanks PastorJoey!
What point would that be?:scratch:

[Steve Petersen]

I am not too sure what you were getting at by quoting the Jewish lore. Please explain further.....
Do Messianics deny the infallibility of Pauls writtings? A previous response to my post appears so.
Paul is writing to Timothy, a Jew. 'Good works' means only one thing the Jew: the commandments of God.

I quoted the lore only as an example of how Paul borrows it in his letters. Jesus did the same thing frequently. They put a different context to them mostly though. So it is a good idea when reading the NT to know what Paul and Jesus were getting at when they contrast existing lore. Paul does this a lot in Galatians and provides the subtext for the book that is not apparent on the surface.

[Rainie]

We must remember, Paul kept the Law and would've been killed if he was teaching people to abandon the Law.

Acts 25
7 When he had come, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood about and laid many serious complaints against Paul, which they could not prove, 8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”
9 But Festus, wanting to do the Jews a favor, answered Paul and said, “Are you willing to go up to Jerusalem and there be judged before me concerning these things?”
10 So Paul said, “I stand at Caesar’s judgment seat, where I ought to be judged. To the Jews I have done no wrong, as you very well know. 11 For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar.”


AND...
This one is huge for me, look at what Stephen was accused of by what are referred to as "false witnesses"!

Acts 6
8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people. 9 Then there arose some from what is called the Synagogue of the Freedmen (Cyrenians, Alexandrians, and those from Cilicia and Asia), disputing with Stephen. 10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spoke. 11 Then they secretly induced men to say, “We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God.” 12 And they stirred up the people, the elders, and the scribes; and they came upon him, seized him, and brought him to the council. 13 They also set up :( FALSE WITNESSES :( who said, “This man does not cease to speak blasphemous words against this holy place and the law; 14 for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs which Moses delivered to us.” 15 And all who sat in the council, looking steadfastly at him, saw his face as the face of an angel.

All I have to say is YIKES! The False witnesses "lied" and stated that Stephen spoke out against the Law, the Customs of Moses!

When I read this it was quite impactful for me, as I realized that I was saying the same thing, I was accusing Paul, Stephen and others of "doing away with the Law" I was just like those False Witnesses!!!!
YIKES!

Thank Goodness for Grace and Forgiveness!
God Bless :prayer:
Rain

[PastorJoey]

We must remember, Paul kept the Law and would've been killed if he was teaching people to abandon the Law.

Acts 25
7 When he had come, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood about and laid many serious complaints against Paul, which they could not prove, 8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”
9 But Festus, wanting to do the Jews a favor, answered Paul and said, “Are you willing to go up to Jerusalem and there be judged before me concerning these things?”
10 So Paul said, “I stand at Caesar’s judgment seat, where I ought to be judged. To the Jews I have done no wrong, as you very well know. 11 For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar.”


AND...
This one is huge for me, look at what Stephen was accused of by what are referred to as "false witnesses"!

Acts 6
8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people. 9 Then there arose some from what is called the Synagogue of the Freedmen (Cyrenians, Alexandrians, and those from Cilicia and Asia), disputing with Stephen. 10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spoke. 11 Then they secretly induced men to say, “We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God.” 12 And they stirred up the people, the elders, and the scribes; and they came upon him, seized him, and brought him to the council. 13 They also set up :( FALSE WITNESSES :( who said, “This man does not cease to speak blasphemous words against this holy place and the law; 14 for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs which Moses delivered to us.” 15 And all who sat in the council, looking steadfastly at him, saw his face as the face of an angel.

All I have to say is YIKES! The False witnesses "lied" and stated that Stephen spoke out against the Law, the Customs of Moses!

When I read this it was quite impactful for me, as I realized that I was saying the same thing, I was accusing Paul, Stephen and others of "doing away with the Law" I was just like those False Witnesses!!!!
YIKES!

Thank Goodness for Grace and Forgiveness!
God Bless :prayer:
Rain
If only Paul's clear teachings in his epistles concerning the Law of Moses lined up with your assessments, that would make for a good argument.

These false witnesses against Stephen distorted his original statements concerning the law. Had the people heard those words themselves and not from these false witnesses, they would of had more of a chance of receiving what he had to say.

Point being, what they accused Stephen and others of saying was basically true but they witheld the explanation that would have been necessary to convince.

This was a purposful design to incite violence.
The common method of a heresy hunter is to take a few statements which were actually made by the one accused but convieniently leaving out the context that statement was made in.

[Steve Petersen]

If only Paul's clear teachings in his epistles concerning the Law of Moses lined up with your assessments, that would make for a good argument.

These false witnesses against Stephen distorted his original statements concerning the law. Had the people heard those words themselves and not from these false witnesses, they would of had more of a chance of receiving what he had to say.

Point being, what they accused Stephen and others of saying was basically true but they witheld the explanation that would have been necessary to convince.

This was a purposful design to incite violence.
The common method of a heresy hunter is to take a few statements which were actually made by the one accused but convieniently leaving out the context that statement was made in.
So Paul and Stephen did speak against the Law and the customs, but were quoted out of context in order to secure a conviction?

What about this:

Acts 25:8 While he [Paul] answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

[Rainie]

So Paul and Stephen lied?

[PastorJoey]

So Paul and Stephen did speak against the Law and the customs, but were quoted out of context in order to secure a conviction?

What about this:

Acts 25:8 While he [Paul] answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

So Paul and Stephen lied?
....

I doubt that Moses himself or any other reasonable person would have been offended at Pauls statements, only someone with an agenda of their own who felt their authority was being threatened.

Tell me, would they have felt that Paul was speaking gainst the law of Moses if they were to hear these statements come out of Paul's mouth?

Eph 2:11-19 KJV
(11) Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh....
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us [Jew and Gentile];
(15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
(16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
(17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
(18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
(19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Gal 3:19-29 KJV
(19) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made [Jesus]; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator...
(21)Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
(22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
(24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
(26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
...
(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal 3:13-16 KJV
(13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
...
(16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Christ alone is the true "seed" of Abraham and if any person be in Christ, they too are abrahams prophecied seed whether they be Jew or Gentile!

I am Abrahams seed and so are you if you are in Christ, not because of your or my ethnicity.

If any person be in Christ He is a new creation, old things past away and all things become new.

Paul wasnt speaking against the law of moses, he only was stressing their fulfillment in Christ.

Steve and others on this forum stressed that Pauls writings were hard to be understood. Well, this is where these false witnesses got their ammunition.
2 Cor. 5: 17



...

[PastorJoey]

I understsand that one of my posts were reported and I was accused of pretending only to ask questions but only seek to turn people from Judaism. These are not my intentions. I have already came and left from this forum after having constructive discussion with many others here. A few days later I saw that some had commented further about my previous posts. In these posts were direct questions to me or demanded a response to further clarify my beliefs. Any "preaching" done by me can be traced back to a direct question that was asked of me. I feel that me and others here were having good dialog.

Let me make my intentions clear:
I want to learn about what Messianics believe and why they believe it.

At times I may need to give my own perspective so I can get the answers I am looking for, or if direct questions are asked of me. I feel that the more clear I am about my perspective, the better you can answer my questions.

I do not seek to convert anyone on this forum. I have no agenda and if you want your beliefs to be properly communicated without false representation I am the one you would want to be talking to about it.

I had hoped that my perspective can help some learn why I believe what I do just as I have had opportunity to learn what you believe.
Please forgive me for coming across to some as "preachy". Hey I am a preacher, so I cant help myself sometimes:D . Please dont pay attention to the delivery style, focus on the content.

If I have broken any forum rules please make me aware of it. I understand this to be a debate forum. MAybe its only for debate among yourselves. If so I apologize.

[Henaynei]

(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. I "love" it when folks come in here and quote things like this at us ... picking and choosing what they will ....

so let's look at it:

if one is going to use that verse to claim there is neither Jew nor Greek, then there *must* also be "neither male or female"
I agree that neither male nor females, neither Jew nor Greek can claim a higher or special relationship with G-d, we all have *equal* "standing" before G-d, BUT
That does not mean that they no longer have unique functions and "rules" does it?? ... or are women to be the leaders in their home and are their husbands to submit to them "as unto the L-rd?" etc...?
Then having quoted and claimed that there is no longer any Jew.... you quote the next verse claiming standing in the Jewish covenant...

what really gets my goat when folks do this is that they at the *same time* say that while they are partakers of the covenant that Israel had through Abraham, yet they are released from the bond and surety of that covenant, the commandments of Torah ....
:help: :swoon: :tutu: :swoon: :help:

[PastorJoey]

I "love" it when folks come in here and quote things like this at us ... picking and choosing what they will ....

so let's look at it:

if one is going to use that verse to claim there is neither Jew nor Greek, then there *must* also be "neither male or female"
I agree that neither male nor females, neither Jew nor Greek can claim a higher or special relationship with G-d, we all have *equal* "standing" before G-d, BUT
That does not mean that they no longer have unique functions and "rules" does it?? ... or are women to be the leaders in their home and are their husbands to submit to them "as unto the L-rd?" etc...?
Then having quoted and claimed that there is no longer any Jew.... you quote the next verse claiming standing in the Jewish covenant...

what really gets my goat when folks do this is that they at the *same time* say that while they are partakers of the covenant that Israel had through Abraham, yet they are released from the bond and surety of that covenant, the commandments of Torah ....
:help: :swoon: :tutu: :swoon: :help:

Well if I may respond to this without sounding too "preachy".

I merely quoted a verse, the conclusions you came to are your own.

Certainly Christ does not do away with ethnicity. He did away with the need to be a part of any ethnic group. This was Paul's argument. It is not those who are Jews outwardly but those who are Jews inwardly with an inward circumcision of the heart. For all are one in Christ.

I claim my right to Abrahams covenant based on Faith in Christ and His fulfillment of the law, not works of my own or my ethnicity.

What are the misunderstandings of the many other verses I cited written by Paul concerning the Law?

Tell me, Was Abraham a Jew of Gentile before God called him out of Ur?

Why is he called "the father of many nations [plural]" and not the father of the nation [singular] of Israel?

Who was the "seed" which G-d [forgive me, I am getting used to this] made the promises to?

[HadassahSukkot]

So Paul and Stephen lied?
No and No. However there were false witnesses.

Firstly, the criterea Stephen met:

He was Jewish
He was full of faith and knowledgeable in Scripture
He did many signs and wonders (something often not found without the upper two in Scripture)

Secondly, people got ticked off and usurped authority, and decided they did not like Stephen.

Read:

Act 6:5 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Act&c=6&v=5&version=KJV#5) And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:



Act 6:8 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Act&c=6&v=8&version=KJV#8) And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.



Acts 6 - 8

8 Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed amazing miracles and signs among the people. 9 But one day some men from the Synagogue of Freed Slaves, as it was called, started to debate with him. They were Jews from Cyrene, Alexandria, Cilicia, and the province of Asia. 10 None of them could stand against the wisdom and the Spirit with which Stephen spoke. 11 So they persuaded some men to lie about Stephen, saying, “We heard him blaspheme Moses, and even God.” 12 This roused the people, the elders, and the teachers of religious law. So they arrested Stephen and brought him before the high council.
13 The lying witnesses said, “This man is always speaking against the holy Temple and against the law of Moses. 14 We have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth[c (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults2.php?passage1=Acts+6&book_id=51&version1=51&tp=28&c=6#fen-NLT-27080c)] will destroy the Temple and change the customs Moses handed down to us.”
15 At this point everyone in the high council stared at Stephen, because his face became as bright as an angel’s.

1 Then the high priest asked Stephen, “Are these accusations true?” 2 This was Stephen’s reply: “Brothers and fathers, listen to me. Our glorious God appeared to our ancestor Abraham in Mesopotamia before he settled in Haran.[a (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults2.php?passage1=Acts7&book_id=51&version1=51&tp=28&c=7#fen-NLT-27083a)] 3 God told him, ‘Leave your native land and your relatives, and come into the land that I will show you.’[b (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults2.php?passage1=Acts7&book_id=51&version1=51&tp=28&c=7#fen-NLT-27084b)] 4 So Abraham left the land of the Chaldeans and lived in Haran until his father died. Then God brought him here to the land where you now live.
5 “But God gave him no inheritance here, not even one square foot of land. God did promise, however, that eventually the whole land would belong to Abraham and his descendants—even though he had no children yet. 6 God also told him that his descendants would live in a foreign land, where they would be oppressed as slaves for 400 years. 7 ‘But I will punish the nation that enslaves them,’ God said, ‘and in the end they will come out and worship me here in this place.’[c (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults2.php?passage1=Acts7&book_id=51&version1=51&tp=28&c=7#fen-NLT-27088c)]
8 “God also gave Abraham the covenant of circumcision at that time. So when Abraham became the father of Isaac, he circumcised him on the eighth day. And the practice was continued when Isaac became the father of Jacob, and when Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs of the Israelite nation.
9 “These patriarchs were jealous of their brother Joseph, and they sold him to be a slave in Egypt. But God was with him 10 and rescued him from all his troubles. And God gave him favor before Pharaoh, king of Egypt. God also gave Joseph unusual wisdom, so that Pharaoh appointed him governor over all of Egypt and put him in charge of the palace.
11 “But a famine came upon Egypt and Canaan. There was great misery, and our ancestors ran out of food. 12 Jacob heard that there was still grain in Egypt, so he sent his sons—our ancestors—to buy some. 13 The second time they went, Joseph revealed his identity to his brothers,[d (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults2.php?passage1=Acts7&book_id=51&version1=51&tp=28&c=7#fen-NLT-27094d)] and they were introduced to Pharaoh. 14 Then Joseph sent for his father, Jacob, and all his relatives to come to Egypt, seventy-five persons in all. 15 So Jacob went to Egypt. He died there, as did our ancestors. 16 Their bodies were taken to Shechem and buried in the tomb Abraham had bought for a certain price from Hamor’s sons in Shechem.
17 “As the time drew near when God would fulfill his promise to Abraham, the number of our people in Egypt greatly increased. 18 But then a new king came to the throne of Egypt who knew nothing about Joseph. 19 This king exploited o