Gentile believers and the Mosaic Covenant

[GerTzedek]

I agree with Henaynei and Bananna.... I am one who holds to "one law",

Well, my dears, this rather DOES explain the poll results! There are quite a few of you present who hold to this belief. And as there is no consesus you are free to state your case. I'm creating this new thread outside the poll, first because the poll has done its job, and second because this way we move past the "j word" discussion.

You do realize, however, as much as I love you, I will continue to state that this belief that gentile believers SHOULD obey the covenant is not normative Messianic Judaism (if one accepts it as MJ at all). My suggestion is that if you wish to attach to Israel that strongly, that you are DRAWN to the Covenant, that perhaps you are a candidate for conversion.

The following is from an artical written by Russ Resnik and Daniel Juster. Russ is a Jew, and the head of UMJC (the second largest MJ group). Daniel is a messianic gentile, was the first president of MJAA (the largest MJ group), and currently the head of Tikkun International. More on that later. Here is their artical. http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/OneLawMovement.pdf

ONE LAW MOVEMENTS
A Challenge to the Messianic Jewish Community
By Daniel Juster and Russ Resnik

One of the glories of life in the Messianic Jewish community is the unity of worship and service between its Jewish and Gentile members within a specifically Jewish context. In recent years, however, a trend has developed that challenges the Messianic Jewish community on this very issue. This trend involves various groups and movements that teach that all Jews and Gentiles under the new covenant are called to keep the same Torah in all regards.

In so doing, these One Law movements not only misinterpret a great body of Scripture, but they also miss the unique calling of Jews and Gentiles within the Body of Messiah, robbing both groups of the biblical richness of their identity. They lose the new covenant vision of unity in Messiah between Jews and Gentiles and replace it with a man-made rallying cry, which One Law advocate Tim Hegg has expressed as “One people, One Messiah, One Torah.”

Daniel Juster has a true charism for spotting the blurring of lines between gentiles and Jews in the Messianic movement, and the reasons for it. As a messianic gentile, he expresses not only the clear rejection of these doctrines as they creep in, such as Two House, One New Man, etc, but he is sympathetic to the underlying identity crisis among messianic gentiles that is at the root of it all.

From his website, Daniel Juster talks about the confusion of messianic gentiles. He is very sympathetic. But he simply is unwilling for this identity crisis to allow for wrong-headed notions, especially notions that worsen the problem.
http://www.tikkunministries.org/newsletters/dj-dec04.asp

IDENTITY CRISIS

I believe that some Gentiles in the Messianic Jewish movement are having an identity crisis and are not solving the problem the right way. The Messianic Jewish congregational movement is a movement of Jews and Gentiles who have joined together in the calling and for the salvation Israel. Both enjoy and participate in Jewish life patterns. They are one in the Messiah. Most Christians are not called to become part of Messianic Jewish congregations though all are called to support the salvation of Israel. Some are called to the Jewish people as a primary life focus. Their heart is bonded in a unique way with the Jewish people.

At the same time, and with a tender heart, I observe that some Gentile believers are attached to the Messianic Jewish movement out of motives other than a heart burden for Israel and the Jewish community. Rather they are joined to it as an answer to a personal identity crisis. They read the promises in the Bible concerning Israel and her future glory. Romans Chapter 9 begins with a list of the benefits of being part of Israel in answer to the question of what advantage being Jewish provides. Theirs are the covenants, the patriarchs, the giving of the Law, the Temple, the priesthood and the glory. Isaiah states that in the future, Israel will blossom and bud and fill the whole world with fruit. So a Gentile believer who does not know himself adequately in Messiah thinks that it would be better to be Jewish or an Israelite. He thinks that if he is not, he is second class. This has led to amazing diversions.

And so on. My friends, and I do hope we remain friends despite our differences of opinions, I hope you will think on these things.

Shalom

[HadassahSukkot]

Read all forty something pages of it and another one of their papers when a member of my congregation got it after her old congregation in FL excommunicated her for attending our congregation in AL..


I think there are better ways to agree to disagree...

[GerTzedek]

Read all forty something pages of it and another one of their papers when a member of my congregation got it after her old congregation in FL excommunicated her for attending our congregation in AL..


I think there are better ways to agree to disagree...
How could I even comment on that? There is a time and a place for excommunication. And there are congregations that misuse excommunication. I surely don't have the information I'd need to have an opinion on what happened to your friend.

I'm glad you have availed yourself of the positions and reasonings of Messianic Jewish theology. I'm sorry you remain in disagreement. But its a free world, my friend, and you know your own mind.

[Wags]

I think Tim Hegg clearly showed the errors in Resnicks resasoning, in his responses to that article.

[mpossoff]

I think Tim Hegg clearly showed the errors in Resnicks resasoning, in his responses to that article.

I'm wishy washy on this topic. Resnick raises some good points and well as Hegg.

Scripturally I believe Resnick makes more sense.

Marc

[Bananna]

Well, my dears, this rather DOES explain the poll results! There are quite a few of you present who hold to this belief. And as there is no consesus you are free to state your case. I'm creating this new thread outside the poll, first because the poll has done its job, and second because this way we move past the "j word" discussion.

You do realize, however, as much as I love you, I will continue to state that this belief that gentile believers SHOULD obey the covenant is not normative Messianic Judaism (if one accepts it as MJ at all). My suggestion is that if you wish to attach to Israel that strongly, that you are DRAWN to the Covenant, that perhaps you are a candidate for conversion.

The following is from an artical written by Russ Resnik and Daniel Juster. Russ is a Jew, and the head of UMJC (the second largest MJ group). Daniel is a messianic gentile, was the first president of MJAA (the largest MJ group), and currently the head of Tikkun International. More on that later. Here is their artical. http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/OneLawMovement.pdf


Daniel Juster has a true charism for spotting the blurring of lines between gentiles and Jews in the Messianic movement, and the reasons for it. As a messianic gentile, he expresses not only the clear rejection of these doctrines as they creep in, such as Two House, One New Man, etc, but he is sympathetic to the underlying identity crisis among messianic gentiles that is at the root of it all.

From his website, Daniel Juster talks about the confusion of messianic gentiles. He is very sympathetic. But he simply is unwilling for this identity crisis to allow for wrong-headed notions, especially notions that worsen the problem.
http://www.tikkunministries.org/newsletters/dj-dec04.asp



And so on. My friends, and I do hope we remain friends despite our differences of opinions, I hope you will think on these things.

Shalom

By one law I mean one goal.

In actuality when I was a child I walked as a child but when I am grown I do as grown ups do.

The We will all be brought under one perfection. None of us are likely to eat meat when we are all one with God.

Here on Earth we have limitations in ability and understanding. It matters not if we are gentile or Jew. What is required of us is all the same,

"he has shown you oh man what is right and what the Lord requires of you, To do justice and love mercy and walk humbly with your God"

One law

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and might"

They are the same law.

How this pans out in greater Torah is that when we recognize the Goal we start aiming for it. Because the Jews were care takers of the target more is required of them. Gentiles who see the target and aim for the Goal are not restricted from it.

To those who are blind, they will not be punished for what they do not see. For those whose view is obscured there is not requirement to hit the target.


There is still only one target.

Conversion in the formal sense is not always an option. I can never be high priest, but I can keep what is mine to keep and what the Lord has revealed to me. Then I become a light in darkness for those who wish to see the target and could not otherwise see it.

bananna

[GerTzedek]

One law
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and might"

The above verse IS the essense of Torah. But what HaShem has asked of Jews, and what he has asked of gentiles are not the same. Therefore when we love Him with all our heart, soul, and might, it will show in DIFFERENT ways.

For example:

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Speak to the people of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a thread of blue; And it shall be to you for a fringe, that you may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the Lord, and do them… (Numbers 15:37-39)

Speak to whom? To the Nations? To all believers? No, this instruction was from HaShem very, very specifically to the people of Israel. For Jews, this is covenantally binding. For Jews, to NOT do this is wrong. But for the nations, G-d has not asked it. A Jew loving G-d with ALL his heart, soul, and might is going to wear Tzitzit. A gentile loving HaShem with all his heart, soul, and might, won't need to, and in fact shouldn't, as it is presumptuous, violating both the loving of G-d and loving one's neighbor as one's self.

The Jews were/are not "caretakers." They are the covenant people.

Because the Jews were care takers of the target more is required of them. Gentiles who see the target and aim for the Goal are not restricted from it.I agree,not restricted, not usually (see exception above). But not covenantlly obligated. And THAT is the point.

Conversion in the formal sense is not always an option. I can never be high priest,

I'm not sure what not being born into the the tribe of Levi or replace Yeshua or whatever you meant has to do with Conversion, becoming part of People of Israel.

Could you maybe give me several examples of when conversion would not be an option? Besides the obvious, like, my husband would divorce me if I ever converted, LOL. That would be a situation where conversion actually WAS an option, but a poor one, and a reasonable person would choose not to. Help me out here cuz I'm not really sure what you are talking about. Conversion is never necessary. Nor is it ever easy. But it appears to me to be an open option which those that truly wish it can pursue.

[Bananna]

The above verse IS the essense of Torah. But what HaShem has asked of Jews, and what he has asked of gentiles are not the same. Therefore when we love Him with all our heart, soul, and might, it will show in DIFFERENT ways.

For example:

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Speak to the people of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a thread of blue; And it shall be to you for a fringe, that you may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the Lord, and do them… (Numbers 15:37-39)

Speak to whom? To the Nations? To all believers? No, this instruction was from HaShem very, very specifically to the people of Israel. For Jews, this is covenantally binding. For Jews, to NOT do this is wrong. But for the nations, G-d has not asked it. A Jew loving G-d with ALL his heart, soul, and might is going to wear Tzitzit. A gentile loving HaShem with all his heart, soul, and might, won't need to, and in fact shouldn't, as it is presumptuous, violating both the loving of G-d and loving one's neighbor as one's self.

The Jews were/are not "caretakers." They are the covenant people.

I agree,not restricted, not usually (see exception above). But not covenantlly obligated. And THAT is the point.

,

I'm not sure what not being born into the the tribe of Levi or replace Yeshua or whatever you meant has to do with Conversion, becoming part of People of Israel.

Could you maybe give me several examples of when conversion would not be an option? Besides the obvious, like, my husband would divorce me if I ever converted, LOL. That would be a situation where conversion actually WAS an option, but a poor one, and a reasonable person would choose not to. Help me out here cuz I'm not really sure what you are talking about. Conversion is never necessary. Nor is it ever easy. But it appears to me to be an open option which those that truly wish it can pursue.

I simply stated an obvious point of law which I can never keep because I am a woman I can never be high priest, because I am not of Levi I cannot. Conversion would not change my status for these rulings.

However there is one target. I see it, I aim for it. I do what I am not restricted from doing. Tzit Tzit would be just one thing I'm not restricted from wearing. However in most communities it would not be something a woman wears because she normally would not wear a prayer shawl. I'm happy that many others do wear small ones and I do run blue threads through my head covers that are not noticable to anyone but me an my particular community.

Again, no verse in the bible prohibits any part of Israel from wearing tzit tzit. Since I am grafted in and before God there is no distiction, neither Jew nor gentile... I don't see it your way. besides the form of 'You' used in the command was not particular but rather and "all of you" general command.

Bananna

[GerTzedek]

Bananna, do the gentile men in your congregation wear Tzitzit?

[mpossoff]

The above verse IS the essense of Torah. But what HaShem has asked of Jews, and what he has asked of gentiles are not the same. Therefore when we love Him with all our heart, soul, and might, it will show in DIFFERENT ways.

For example:

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Speak to the people of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a thread of blue; And it shall be to you for a fringe, that you may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the Lord, and do them… (Numbers 15:37-39)

Speak to whom? To the Nations? To all believers? No, this instruction was from HaShem very, very specifically to the people of Israel. For Jews, this is covenantally binding. For Jews, to NOT do this is wrong. But for the nations, G-d has not asked it. A Jew loving G-d with ALL his heart, soul, and might is going to wear Tzitzit. A gentile loving HaShem with all his heart, soul, and might, won't need to, and in fact shouldn't, as it is presumptuous, violating both the loving of G-d and loving one's neighbor as one's self.

The Jews were/are not "caretakers." They are the covenant people.

I agree,not restricted, not usually (see exception above). But not covenantlly obligated. And THAT is the point.

,

I'm not sure what not being born into the the tribe of Levi or replace Yeshua or whatever you meant has to do with Conversion, becoming part of People of Israel.

Could you maybe give me several examples of when conversion would not be an option? Besides the obvious, like, my husband would divorce me if I ever converted, LOL. That would be a situation where conversion actually WAS an option, but a poor one, and a reasonable person would choose not to. Help me out here cuz I'm not really sure what you are talking about. Conversion is never necessary. Nor is it ever easy. But it appears to me to be an open option which those that truly wish it can pursue.

GerTzedek you don't believe when one puts their faith in the Jewish Messiah, Yeshua they are not grafted into the olive tree?

, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and the seed of beast.

It’s very clear. This is speaking about Israel and Judah. Not a replacement for Israel and Judah. It’s speaking about DNA. You got the DNA? This is literally Israel. Who’s the New Covenant for? Israel and Judah period no additions. How do you have a hope if it’s without Israel and Judah? As Eph 2 tells you, you had no hope. There was no way you could be part of Israel, you din’t t have the ‘DNA’. Unless it’s by being united with the One who has the ‘DNA’. A Jewish Messiah why He remains Jewish is your only hope. Otherwise you have no hope. You can never be apart of this.

The New Covenant is one must be apart of Israel or you can’t be part of the New Covenant period.

How do you become part of Israel? By putting your faith in Yeshua you become grafted in.

Marc

[Lulav]

Well, my dears, this rather DOES explain the poll results! There are quite a few of you present who hold to this belief. And as there is no consesus you are free to state your case. I'm creating this new thread outside the poll, first because the poll has done its job, and second because this way we move past the "j word" discussion.

You do realize, however, as much as I love you, I will continue to state that this belief that gentile believers SHOULD obey the covenant is not normative Messianic Judaism (if one accepts it as MJ at all). My suggestion is that if you wish to attach to Israel that strongly, that you are DRAWN to the Covenant, that perhaps you are a candidate for conversion.

The following is from an artical written by Russ Resnik and Daniel Juster. Russ is a Jew, and the head of UMJC (the second largest MJ group). Daniel is a messianic gentile, was the first president of MJAA (the largest MJ group), and currently the head of Tikkun International. More on that later. Here is their artical.

Daniel Juster has a true charism for spotting the blurring of lines between gentiles and Jews in the Messianic movement, and the reasons for it. As a messianic gentile, he expresses not only the clear rejection of these doctrines as they creep in, such as Two House, One New Man, etc, but he is sympathetic to the underlying identity crisis among messianic gentiles that is at the root of it all.

From his website, Daniel Juster talks about the confusion of messianic gentiles. He is very sympathetic. But he simply is unwilling for this identity crisis to allow for wrong-headed notions, especially notions that worsen the problem.

And so on. My friends, and I do hope we remain friends despite our differences of opinions, I hope you will think on these things.

ShalomGer Tzedek, by choosing this name I take it you have converted to Judaism? Yet you hold the torah scroll which I found is the proper icon for Messianics both Jews and Gentiles ( I first saw the Star and choose that). If you are truly a ger tzedek how is it you claim to be Messianic? Have you found an Orthodox synagogue to convert you without denying Yeshua?

I have been reading many of your posts and you seem to hold great animosity towards gentiles who are Messianic and keep telling them what they do and don't have to do, yet you yourself are a gentile or were and your conversion now allows you to dictate to them what they can and can't do? Since you are/were a gentile may I ask how you interpret 1 Cor 7

17 Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. 20 Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him. 21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you--although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22 For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brothers, each man, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation God called him to.


You might want to recheck your information. Daniel Juster may act like a Christian gentile but he was born a Jew, and if he were gentile that would certainly preclude him from being the president of MJAA as you cannot even be a full member without being Jewish.

[GerTzedek]

GerTzedek you don't believe when one puts their faith in the Jewish Messiah, Yeshua they are not grafted into the olive tree?

, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and the seed of beast.

It’s very clear. This is speaking about Israel and Judah. Not a replacement for Israel and Judah. It’s speaking about DNA. You got the DNA? This is literally Israel. Who’s the New Covenant for? Israel and Judah period no additions. How do you have a hope if it’s without Israel and Judah? As Eph 2 tells you, you had no hope. There was no way you could be part of Israel, you din’t t have the ‘DNA’. Unless it’s by being united with the One who has the ‘DNA’. A Jewish Messiah why He remains Jewish is your only hope. Otherwise you have no hope. You can never be apart of this.

The New Covenant is one must be apart of Israel or you can’t be part of the New Covenant period.

How do you become part of Israel? By putting your faith in Yeshua you become grafted in.

Marc


Hi marc:

Grafted doesn't mean becoming Israel. If I graft a peach branch onto a plum root, it doesn't bear plums; it will still be a peach branch. If I graft oleander ("wild olive" -- doesn't bear fruit) onto an olive root, it is still not going to bear olives. Grafted means we receive nourishement through that superior root system. We become heirs to the promises, part of the commonwealth, the People of God -- a Larger set than Israel alone. We do NOT become Israel. Israel is still Israel, and the nations are still the nations.

For gentile believers to claim to be Israel rather than Ekklesia is not only mistaken, it is presumptuous and offensive to Israel. It is called Replacement Theology/Supersessionism, and we see it in many forms, including yours. The only way to become part of Israel is to ask, and for Israel to accept you. That's called conversion.

1.4.1 No form of supersessionism/replacement theology will be tolerated in the Orthodox Messianic Jewish Fellowship sub-forum. Threads will be moved to debate and individual posts will be edited or bumped. Supersessionism varieties include:

The view that G-d has divorced Israel.
The view that the Covenant between G-d and Israel is cancelled or no longer in effect.
The view that Israel is no longer G-d's chosen People.
The view that the Church is now Israel.
The view that the Church is now PART of Israel.
The view the the "remnant" (messianic Jews) have replaced Israel
The view that "New Israel" is for any reason an appropriate title for the Church.

[GerTzedek]

Hey Lulav, nice to meet you, and thank you for replying.

Ger Tzedek, by choosing this name I take it you have converted to Judaism?I am in the process. The Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Jews will not recognize my conversion as valid, but then, the Orthodox would not recognize a conversion through a Reform or Conservative Synagogue either. While universal recognition would be lovely, what is important to me is whether the Jewish community I associate with will accept it, and if the beit din rules yes, they will.

You have the Torah Scroll of a Messianic. I would assume that you would also accept it.

The decisions of the Messianic Jewish Rabbinal Council is binding on all UMJC congregations and synagogues. You may read what this council has to say on conversion HERE: http://www.ourrabbis.org/main/content/view/18/32/

Yes, actually there are a few Orthodox Rabbis in my area who would do such a conversion without the denial of Yeshua. However, I am not involved with their congregations.

I have been reading many of your posts and you seem to hold great animosity towards gentiles who are Messianic

"Great animosity"??? Hardly. If you read my original post, you will see that I consider gentiles a permanent part of MJ congregations, both those going through conversions, and those who are not. What sets my thoughts apart from other Messianics (and both points of view are pretty normative) is that I don't think gentiles should be members of MJ synagogues just because they like a Jewish style of worship. This is, as I said, an acceptable MJ position, and I have as much right to present my position as my MJ brothers and sisters here have to present the alternative view. I stated several GOOD reasons for gentiles to be members. I have also stated I'm thrilled that Dan Juster, who I understood to be gentile, is an integral part of our community. Please don't exaggerate my position!

Since you are/were a gentile may I ask how you interpret 1 Cor 7

17 Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. 20 Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him. 21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you--although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22 For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brothers, each man, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation God called him to.

It means that gentile believers need not become Jews, and for the most part, should not become Jews. I do not, however, believe that it is an absolute. Why? Because Paul himself circumsized Timothy and brought him under covenant. He made an exception. Israel has ALWAYS made exceptions and allowed for rare conversions. Again, I refer you to what the Messianic Jewish Rabbinical council has to say on gentile conversion to Judaism.

You might want to recheck your information. Daniel Juster may act like a Christian gentile but he was born a Jew, and if he were gentile that would certainly preclude him from being the president of MJAA as you cannot even be a full member without being Jewish.

Ohhh, good point!!! I was misinformed about this, and then didn't put 2 and 2 together. :doh: If he is born a Jew, he can't of course become a gentile, LOL ;) You are very correct that in MJAA one may not be a full member or hold office unless one is a Jew. My statement would still reflect my non-"hostile" attitude, but I should find an appropriate example, eh?:pink:

[Kalanit]

I believe Dan Juster is a Jewish man married to a Gentile woman.

[Lulav]

Hey Lulav, nice to meet you, and thank you for replying.

I am in the process. The Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Jews will not recognize my conversion as valid, but then, the Orthodox would not recognize a conversion through a Reform or Conservative Synagogue either. While universal recognition would be lovely, what is important to me is whether the Jewish community I associate with will accept it, and if the beit din rules yes, they will.

You have the Torah Scroll of a Messianic. I would assume that you would also accept it.

The decisions of the Messianic Jewish Rabbinal Council is binding on all UMJC congregations and synagogues. You may read what this council has to say on conversion HERE: http://www.ourrabbis.org/main/content/view/18/32/

Yes, actually there are a few Orthodox Rabbis in my area who would do such a conversion without the denial of Yeshua. However, I am not involved with their congregations.



"Great animosity"??? Hardly. If you read my original post, you will see that I consider gentiles a permanent part of MJ congregations, both those going through conversions, and those who are not. What sets my thoughts apart from other Messianics (and both points of view are pretty normative) is that I don't think gentiles should be members of MJ synagogues just because they like a Jewish style of worship. This is, as I said, an acceptable MJ position, and I have as much right to present my position as my MJ brothers and sisters here have to present the alternative view. I stated several GOOD reasons for gentiles to be members. I have also stated I'm thrilled that Dan Juster, who I understood to be gentile, is an integral part of our community. Please don't exaggerate my position!



It means that gentile believers need not become Jews, and for the most part, should not become Jews. I do not, however, believe that it is an absolute. Why? Because Paul himself circumsized Timothy and brought him under covenant. He made an exception. Israel has ALWAYS made exceptions and allowed for rare conversions. Again, I refer you to what the Messianic Jewish Rabbinical council has to say on gentile conversion to Judaism.



Ohhh, good point!!! I was misinformed about this, and then didn't put 2 and 2 together. :doh: If he is born a Jew, he can't of course become a gentile, LOL ;) You are very correct that in MJAA one may not be a full member or hold office unless one is a Jew. My statement would still reflect my non-"hostile" attitude, but I should find an appropriate example, eh?:pink:If it will not be accepted from normative Judaism, why do it? You say you want to be accepted in the Jewish community you are in, is this a Messianic community and if so do they require all gentiles to convert to be acceptable? I would question that.

Your interpretation of 1 Cor 7:
It means that gentile believers need not become Jews, and for the most part, should not become Jews. I do not, however, believe that it is an absolute. Why? Because Paul himself circumsized Timothy and brought him under covenant. He made an exception. Israel has ALWAYS made exceptions and allowed for rare conversions. Again, I refer you to what the Messianic Jewish Rabbinical council has to say on gentile conversion to Judaism.Paul circumcised Timothy because he hadn't been as a child as he should have been and Timothy had a Jewish mother. Paul was not going against what he taught at all. From the way it reads in Acts 16, it seems Paul did it to avoid the contention that was always being thrust upon him that he taught that Torah was done away with and was leading Jews astray. He was just helping to right a wrong, along the lines of what Zipporah did. This was no exception, and not a rare conversion.


What sets my thoughts apart from other Messianics (and both points of view are pretty normative) is that I don't think gentiles should be members of MJ synagogues just because they like a Jewish style of worship. I agree, but it seems that many have come in and changed what should be, there should be an act of intention so to speak, but not to bring in Christian teachings and practices as I see so much happening. This is what dilutes the pot, not the gentiles themselves. I think a stricter stand on Not adopting the ways of the Christian church need to be enacted, not conversion. I think any gentile who feels a need to convert to feel as if they belong is in the same league as those in the church that tell Jews that come to saving knowledge of who Messiah is to stop doing their "Jewish things" because now they are a Christian.

I'm sorry you felt I exaggerated your position, I was only commenting on what I've read of your posts and I just find it rather droll that someone who is a gentile keeps telling other gentiles what they can and shouldn't do as Messianics and also that they aren't a grafted in part of Israel, when they themselves are in the same boat. :)

[GerTzedek]

I'm sorry you felt I exaggerated your position, I was only commenting on what I've read of your posts and I just find it rather droll that someone who is a gentile keeps telling other gentiles what they can and shouldn't do as Messianics and also that they aren't a grafted in part of Israel, when they themselves are in the same boat. :)See, there you go again. You aren't merely "exaggerating" my position, you are mistating it. I have never said that gentile believers aren't grafted in, and have many, many, many times stated that they ARE. It seems to me that you aren't reading my posts very carefully! Perhaps you should slow down, and think a bit more, before you jump to conclusions about me. I'm sure that that making mis-statements is not something you deliberately do or wish to do, so you will want in the future to be much more careful.

Or, if the length or complexity of my posts is the problem (and often that is for many people) then don't feel obliged to form an opinion or reply.

In regards to you question about my conversion. I thought I answered this? I'll try one more time. If you don't get it, oh well. :D I'm doing the best I can with the cards I'm dealt. I don't feel I have any choice BUT to convert. Every time I've tried to pull away from Judaism, its been like a rubber band -- the farther away I've gotten, the greater the force it hits me when it returns. I would love to have an Orthodox conversion, which would be universally accepted. That is not going to happen. So I'm working with what I have.

[Wags]

It seems to me that you aren't reading my posts very carefully! Perhaps you should slow down, and think a bit more, before you jump to conclusions about me.

Oy Vey! :doh:

[muffler dragon]

As a Noachide Gentile, I don't believe in "One Torah" for all peoples at this present time. Should Messiah come in my lifetime, I may feel differently; however, until then...

[ChazakEmunah]

As a Noachide Gentile, I don't believe in "One Torah" for all peoples at this present time. Should Messiah come in my lifetime, I may feel differently; however, until then...
And may he come soon, speedily, and in our lifetime...


During Rosh HaShanna would be nice..... ;)

[Mishael460]

Shalom,

I'm not Jewish, nevertheless the torah is for me. How do you guys explain Caleb and Othoniel's (the first judge of Israel) torah observance.

The sages taught, That the gentile who studies torah should be regarded as the High Priest.

Also, Rabbi Shammai and Hillel, though each one would differ in their treatment, would accept converts. It is modern Judaism that rejects the nations from observing torah. The prophets visualized a time when all nations will go up to Jerusalem, to the temple. As gentiles we have a right to be part of Hashems people because we love him and believe in thim. Therefore the torah is for us. I notice that alot of people who wanted to be more "Jewish" look down of gentile believers but it is not about being jewish it about loving the G-d of Israel.

[muffler dragon]

Shalom,

I'm not Jewish, nevertheless the torah is for me. How do you guys explain Caleb and Othoniel's (the first judge of Israel) torah observance.

Both Caleb and Othniel were Jews. ;)

The sages taught, That the gentile who studies torah should be regarded as the High Priest.

Actually, it's a convert who is regarded highly; not just some Joe who is reading the Jewish Bible.

Also, Rabbi Shammai and Hillel, though each one would differ in their treatment, would accept converts.

I don't know of anyone or any sect that DOESN'T accept converts.

It is modern Judaism that rejects the nations from observing torah.

Wrong again. Judaism has placed boundaries around the Torah, because it is the keeper of its safety. However, this has nothing to do with people converting to Judaism.

As gentiles we have a right to be part of Hashems people because we love him and believe in thim. Therefore the torah is for us.

This is a false premise. Observance or non-observance plays no role into whether humans are in a relationship with G-d. I, as a Gentile, am not called to observe Torah; yet, this does not nullify the relationship that I have with G-d.

[visionary]

I know the scriptures do not speak much about the mix multitude at the foot of Mount Sinai. Nor is there any gentile gate in the New Jerusalem, but I have faith in Yeshua and His Commandments and by faith I trust that by learning His precepts and His Kingdom, and by living those ways found within and explained to my heart by the Holy Spirit I will follow, where Yeshua shows me in the moment with me.

[visionary]

Since this thread is moving away from orthodox and into a more of a debate mode, I will move this thread to debate, if it continues... [that does include my postings].

[GerTzedek]

You have a good idea, vis.

[Henaynei]

I was not posting much in this forum when this thread was started - I'd like to clarify something.... I do not believe that all believers must obey Torah. I agree with Rabban Sha'ul and the Jerusalem Beit Din - the Gentiles may chose to obey Torah and even be encouraged to do so but it is NOT a requirement on the Gentile Believers ---- it IS a requirement on the Jews, believers or not ....

[Wags]

I believe Isaiah 56: 3-8

3 Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the Lord say, "The Lord will surely exclude me from his people." And let not any eunuch complain, "I am only a dry tree." 4 For this is what the Lord says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant-- 5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off. 6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord to serve him, to love the name of the Lord, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant-- 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations." 8 The Sovereign Lord declares-- he who gathers the exiles of Israel: "I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered."

There is nothing in that passage that says that genitles only need to hold fast to the covenant when they live in Israel or live in a Jewish house.

[muffler dragon]

I believe Isaiah 56: 3-8



There is nothing in that passage that says that genitles only need to hold fast to the covenant when they live in Israel or live in a Jewish house.


A "foreigner who has bound himself to the L-rd" is a convert or someone who is converting. This isn't a person who is going to remain a Gentile.

[mpossoff]

A "foreigner who has bound himself to the L-rd" is a convert or someone who is converting. This isn't a person who is going to remain a Gentile.

I kind of agree and disagree.

The key you mentioned 'someone who is converting'. How about someone is who in the 'process' of becoming a covenant member.

What comes first, the chicken or the egg? In other words what is the means of becoming a covenant member?

Can't a Gentile who wants to become a covenant member remain a Gentile but is now a covenant member? That a Gentile can still remain a Gentile but is part of the 'commonwealth of Israel', is NOT an alien and NOT a stranger to the covenants of promise.

Are we talking about converting by means of changing your ethnicity or becoming a covenant member? Two different things.

Why can't a Gentile who practices the true faith of the Bible which is 'Judaism' and still remain a Gentile? Why put boundaries around someone that has been convicted of the true faith of God?

Yeah I know what Judaism says, but does that mean that Judaism is correct in putting boundaries and fences to keep Gentiles from practicing the true faith of the God of Abraham, God of Isaac and God of Jacob?

Doesn't God who says through the prophet Isaiah that ALL will be keeping and obeying His Torah? Why wait then if that is going to be the case?

Won't the nations grab hold of tzizit of a Jew and say 'take me to the House of God as we know God is with you' so I can learn His Instructions? Why wait until then?

Marc

[muffler dragon]

The key you mentioned 'someone who is converting'. How about someone is who in the 'process' of becoming a covenant member.

What is the difference between converting and becoming a member?

What comes first, the chicken or the egg? In other words what is the means of becoming a covenant member?

I presume you have an answer since you're the one who introduced the concept.

Can't a Gentile who wants to become a covenant member remain a Gentile but is now a covenant member?

In Judaism, the answer is, "No".

That a Gentile can still remain a Gentile but is part of the 'commonwealth of Israel', is NOT an alien and NOT a stranger to the covenants of promise.

The only middle ground, that I know of, between Gentile and member of Israel is a Noachide.

Are we talking about converting by means of changing your ethnicity or becoming a covenant member? Two different things.

I'll await your response to my first question above.

Why can't a Gentile who practices the true faith of the Bible which is 'Judaism' and still remain a Gentile? Why put boundaries around someone that has been convicted of the true faith of God?

I do practice the faith of HaShem as a Noachide. And ther are no boundaries for me. I don't know what you're getting at with these questions.

Yeah I know what Judaism says, but does that mean that Judaism is correct in putting boundaries and fences to keep Gentiles from practicing the true faith of the God of Abraham, God of Isaac and God of Jacob?

Judaism doesn't keep Gentiles from having a faith in HaShem. This is your own conception.

[mpossoff]

What is the difference between converting and becoming a member?



I presume you have an answer since you're the one who introduced the concept.

muffler I asked you the question so I'll await your answer. What comes first, the chicken or the egg? In other words what is the means of becoming a covenant member?


In Judaism, the answer is, "No". So are you saying that a Gentile changes their ethnicity and therefore becomes a covenant member?



The only middle ground, that I know of, between Gentile and member of Israel is a Noachide.



I'll await your response to my first question above. Again I asked you the question so I'll await your answer.



I do practice the faith of HaShem as a Noachide. And ther are no boundaries for me. I don't know what you're getting at with these questions. I'm not referring to Noahcide. I'm referring to obeying God's Instructions.



Judaism doesn't keep Gentiles from having a faith in HaShem. This is your own conception.I'm referring to Torah. But does Judaism keep Gentiles from keeping Torah?

Marc

[ChazakEmunah]

Lemme answer some of these questions.


So are you saying that a Gentile changes their ethnicity and therefore becomes a covenant member?
When a Gentile converts to Judaism, they do change their ethnicity. They are no longer a Gentile, but a Jew.

But does Judaism keep Gentiles from keeping Torah?
Nope. Gentiles are encouraged to keep the Noachide Laws, all of which are found in the Torah. They are welcome to keep any mitzvot beyond that, but are not obligated to do so.

[muffler dragon]

muffler I asked you the question so I'll await your answer.

I have no idea. I don't know what the difference is between a convert and a covenant member in your dictionary.

So are you saying that a Gentile changes their ethnicity and therefore becomes a covenant member?

I'm saying that when a Gentile converts to Judaism that person is no longer rendered a Gentile. How that fits into your "covenant member" consideration is beyond me.

I'm not referring to Noahcide. I'm referring to obeying God's Instructions.

As much as I'm sure you're inclined to disclaim the Noachide belief system, it IS obeying G-d's instructions from my POV.

I'm referring to Torah. But does Judaism keep Gentiles from keeping Torah?Marc

IMO, no, Judaism does not keep Gentiels from keeping Torah. Judaism instructs Gentiles on what is their responsibility within the Torah.

[Henaynei]

A "foreigner who has bound himself to the L-rd" is a convert or someone who is converting. This isn't a person who is going to remain a Gentile. true dat! the "binding" is the conversion :) :thumbsup:

[visionary]

When a Gentile converts to Judaism, they do change their ethnicity. They are no longer a Gentile, but a Jew.I want to follow this thought further, lets say that they have fully converted to Judaism and ten years down the road decide that they want to be... [pick something outside the frameword of Judaism.].. will they be a ....[psotfoJ].. Jew then?

[GerTzedek]

I want to follow this thought further, lets say that they have fully converted to Judaism and ten years down the road decide that they want to be... [pick something outside the frameword of Judaism.].. will they be a ....[psotfoJ].. Jew then?
Once a Jew, always a Jew.

This issue you bring up is why the rabbis are so persistant at turning people away, weeding out all but the most sincere, and then requiring years of study and living like a Jew before conversion... Most of those who flip from one thing to another simply don't make it through this process. To the best of my understanding, the beit din is not simply looking for knowledge of judaism and sincerity of heart, but also commitment: they must be convinced the convert will never leave the practice of Judaism and will remain observant for the rest of their life before affirming the conversion.

[GerTzedek]

Can't a Gentile who wants to become a covenant member remain a Gentile but is now a covenant member?

No. Marc, the Mosaic covenant is BY DEFINITION the covenant between HaShem and Israel, and NOT between HaShem and the Nations. Only by becoming part of the people of Israel -- not merely grafted, not merely part of the commonwealth -- do they then enter into THIS covenant. Only by changing their status from gentile to Jew do they enter into THIS covenant.

[GerTzedek]

IMO, no, Judaism does not keep Gentiels from keeping Torah. Judaism instructs Gentiles on what is their responsibility within the Torah.
Oh NICELY worded!

But you misspelled Gentle

[GerTzedek]

A "foreigner who has bound himself to the L-rd" is a convert or someone who is converting. This isn't a person who is going to remain a Gentile.
Like Henaynei said, TRUE DAT!

[ChazakEmunah]

I want to follow this thought further, lets say that they have fully converted to Judaism and ten years down the road decide that they want to be... [pick something outside the frameword of Judaism.].. will they be a ....[psotfoJ].. Jew then?

Once a Jew, always a Jew.

This issue you bring up is why the rabbis are so persistant at turning people away, weeding out all but the most sincere, and then requiring years of study and living like a Jew before conversion... Most of those who flip from one thing to another simply don't make it through this process. To the best of my understanding, the beit din is not simply looking for knowledge of judaism and sincerity of heart, but also commitment: they must be convinced the convert will never leave the practice of Judaism and will remain observant for the rest of their life before affirming the conversion.

Yep, this is 100% accurate.

[Ivy]

Oh NICELY worded!

But you misspelled Gentle

^_^

This gentiel, genteel, gentle Gentile has to chuckle. ;)