Dungeons and Dragons

[JustinHesychast]

I went over to a friend's house to play Dungeons and Dragons (DnD or D&D) for the first time ever. It was AMAZING! :eek: *twitch* Pizza, ice cream, soda, more pizza, and roleplaying with friends as a half elf druid. Amazing. Online RPGs are amazing too. I love them. But something about the imagination of a table top game is one of the most amazing feelings in the word. I had so much fun.

And you know what we did? We went to a small hicktown in the middle of nowhere, introduced my character freed from slavery, and went shopping. That's it. For 5-6 hours we did that. But it was. So. Amazing.

Now to keep concealing the fact from mom. :P I have to tell her we just play regular video games. Because, y'know, it's a pagan-sacrificing Satan-worshiping cult of suiciders. :P

Wow how much fun though. I luff DnD. ^_^

[Theophorus]

got one of these?

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t99/chopin139/m_manual2.jpg

1st edition. I have the players handbook and dungeonmaster guide as well.

[JustinHesychast]

Wow. The first edition is awful. :P

No, I don't. They're too big for me to buy and sneak down my pants and hide til I get home. :P I am going to have to have my friends by the Handbook, and if I have the cash the Monster Guide and DM Handbook as well. I will stick them under my bed. xD

I don't have dice, but I can get some and stick in my pocket next time I am in the mall.

It'd be fun to DM. Being a writer, it'd be really fun. Our DM is just "OK" but even then I had so much fun it is amazing. :D

[Michael the Iconographer]

I fail to see how DnD can be reconciled with Orthodox Christianity.

[disasm]

Wow. The first edition is awful. :P

No, I don't. They're too big for me to buy and sneak down my pants and hide til I get home. :P I am going to have to have my friends by the Handbook, and if I have the cash the Monster Guide and DM Handbook as well. I will stick them under my bed. xD

I don't have dice, but I can get some and stick in my pocket next time I am in the mall.

It'd be fun to DM. Being a writer, it'd be really fun. Our DM is just "OK" but even then I had so much fun it is amazing. :D
I don't see anything wrong with D&D, but hiding things from your mother isn't a good idea :( It seems sadly a lot of posts I've seen from you have been about not letting your mom not know what's going on in your life. Maybe things wouldn't be so hard if you would just tell her what your doing and what your thinking?

I'm not one to judge or tell others what they should or shouldn't do, but I can tell you the worst 4 years I had in life were last year of middle school and first 3 of high school when I tried to hide everything from my parents. There is nothing they can do to you that will make things worse than telling them whats going on.

I hope you enjoy D&D but I also hope you set things right with your parents and level out with them. It only gets harder the further you separate yourself.

Praying for you and your family...

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.

[JustinHesychast]

Reconciled? DnD is one of the best things in the world. I have heard of priests listening to Led Zeppelin. :P If they can do that, I can play DnD. The only Orthodox people I can't see playing DnD are monastics. But that's kind of a "duh".

DnD rocks. I am so excited.

[JustinHesychast]

disasm, thanks, but mom is a close minded bigot who believes DnD is about pagan sacrifice, Satan worship, and suicide. She hates DnD with a passion. I cannot convince her otherwise.

I HAVE to keep things from her. If it doesn't fit with her ideas of the world, she gets very angry. I have to hide all my spiritual struggles and even DnD from her. It's just how it has to be.

[Shubunkin]

My sister played D & D when a teenager, but after a while, she thought better of it, and decided it wasn't for a Christian. She quit.

[Shubunkin]

disasm, thanks, but mom is a close minded bigot who believes DnD is about pagan sacrifice, Satan worship, and suicide. She hates DnD with a passion. I cannot convince her otherwise.

I HAVE to keep things from her. If it doesn't fit with her ideas of the world, she gets very angry. I have to hide all my spiritual struggles and even DnD from her. It's just how it has to be.
Maybe she heard of some very bad things about it. You may do well to ask her what personal experience, or witness, she may have to have turned her to believe that way about it.

[Theophorus]

I fail to see how DnD can be reconciled with Orthodox Christianity.

Like life, it depends on the people you play with, since the "players" control the plot and outcome. It was modeled on JR Tolkien's Lord of the rings.

I fail to see how Harry Potter is compatible with Orthodoxy. (The obvious and tired comparison)

[JustinHesychast]

cygne, tried it. I am telling you... close minded bigot. :P

Theo, Harry Potter is Christian too. :P I just don't care for it.

DnD > them all. xD Well, except LOTR.

[Theophorus]

Wow. The first edition is awful. :P

You should have better respect for tradition. ;):P

[Shubunkin]

cygne, tried it. I am telling you... close minded bigot. :P


I'm just curious how she came to think this way. Just wondering if she herself had a bad experience, or perhaps someone she knew. Perhaps it was just someone else's opinion that she adopted without really knowing it. Like I said, just curious.

[Theophorus]

I'm just curious how she came to think this way. Just wondering if she herself had a bad experience, or perhaps someone she knew. Perhaps it was just someone else's opinion that she adopted without really knowing it. Like I said, just curious.

Way back in the 80's, a kid committed suicide. Some attributed it to his D&D obsession. A big stink was made about it, including a TV drama of the "true story". If you were not living under a rock, and are old enough, one might remember it.

Pales in comparison to columbine.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Like life, it depends on the people you play with, since the "players" control the plot and outcome. It was modeled on JR Tolkien's Lord of the rings.

I fail to see how Harry Potter is compatible with Orthodoxy. (The obvious and tired comparison)
Harry Potter is not compatible with Christianity. I have met actuall witches before and let me tell you they are nothing to mess arround with. The one witch I had met described something that happened to her that was nothing short of a demonic attack. Needless to say I had to stop talking to this person shortly after that conversation. I have a cousin who is a witch and her husband is a warlock and I stay as far way from the two of them as I can.

[JustinHesychast]

DnD has witches and warlocks... It's a staple of fantasy...

And ya, cygne, what Theo said is the whole reason. Which in reality, the kid only had played DnD 2-3 times ever. It was really stupid and ridiculous. *grumbles at media*

[Michael the Iconographer]

DnD has witches and warlocks... It's a staple of fantasy...

And ya, cygne, what Theo said is the whole reason. Which in reality, the kid only had played DnD 2-3 times ever. It was really stupid and ridiculous. *grumbles at media*
Justin,
What I am telling you is my real life encounters with witches and warlocks was anything but pretty. They are not something you really want to mess with.
Michael

[Theophorus]

Harry Potter is not compatible with Christianity. I have met actuall witches before and let me tell you they are nothing to mess arround with. The one witch I had met described something that happened to her that was nothing short of a demonic attack. Needless to say I had to stop talking to this person shortly after that conversation. I have a cousin who is a witch and her husband is a warlock and I stay as far way from the two of them as I can.

I agree, you are well advised to do so. From the testimony of others, stay away from the occult.

There is a difference between, "you need to roll a 15 or higher saving throw" and the actual reciting of occult spells. There is also a difference in the theme, Potter is not a Paladin or dwarf or elf from "middle earth": He is a boy from reality.

[Theophorus]

Justin,
What I am telling you is my real life encounters with witches and warlocks was anything but pretty. They are not something you really want to mess with.
Michael

Yes, And if my statement above about "testimony of others" was vague, let me add that it is 1st hand.

Don't recite spells or pantomime them, and stay away from those that do.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I agree, you are well advised to do so. From the testimony of others, stay away from the occult.

There is a difference between, "you need to roll a 15 or higher saving throw" and the actual reciting of occult spells. There is also a difference in the theme, Potter is not a Paladin or dwarf or elf from "middle earth": He is a boy from reality.
I do understand what you are saying, but there is part of me that even has an issue with the Jedi in Star Wars, no matter how much I do love Star Wars. Yoda may be the most kick butt little green guy in the existence and a most wise old sage, but he still has a power that does not come from God. And all power that does not come from God comes from some place else that is not of God. So while I know Star Wars is fantasy I have to work harder and harder to willingly suspsend my disbelief while watching it the older I get. But Potter, that is just bad stuff and I don't get how Christians can let their children read the stuff.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Yes, And if my statement above about "testimony of others" was vague, let me add that it is 1st hand.

Don't recite spells or pantomime them, and stay away from those that do.
And if you run into those who do recite spells, start praying The Jesus Prayer immediately and incessantly because the only thing that can overcome such a demonic act is the name of Christ.

[JustinHesychast]

I don't see how people can be so close minded about it. It's fantasy. The best genre of book there is. :P It's where imagination most runs wild and vivid. It's what I write. It's what I read. It's what I play. It's a story. It is not meant to be applied to real life.

As an aside, I chanted a Wiccan spell about 2 or 3 years ago. :P Only because I thought it sounded cool. xD

[Michael the Iconographer]

I don't see how people can be so close minded about it. It's fantasy. The best genre of book there is. :P It's where imagination most runs wild and vivid. It's what I write. It's what I read. It's what I play. It's a story. It is not meant to be applied to real life.

As an aside, I chanted a Wiccan spell about 2 or 3 years ago. :P Only because I thought it sounded cool. xD
Do you understand that by chanting a wiccan spell you are inviting demonic activity into your life? A wiccan spell is a demonic prayer. Who do you want to pray to? God or the anti-god?

[JustinHesychast]

I don't see how it is demonic. Well, depending on the spell.

But I don't want to chant one again. That was a couple years ago anyways.

[Theophorus]

As an aside, I chanted a Wiccan spell about 2 or 3 years ago. :P Only because I thought it sounded cool. xD

Don't ever do that again.

















Ever!!!

[Michael the Iconographer]

I don't see how it is demonic. Well, depending on the spell.

But I don't want to chant one again. That was a couple years ago anyways.
Justin, all power in this world comes from one of two places. God is the creator of everything, and all power comes from him. But there is the other one, the one who denies God exists and who is quite powerful unto himself, but he only has power because God allows him to have it. These are the only two sources of power in the world, and they are exact opposites of each other. The anti-Christ is who wiccan spells are chanted to because they certainly are not chanted to Christ.

[JustinHesychast]

*steers back*

DnD. Awesomeness. Yes?

:P

[Michael the Iconographer]

*steers back*

DnD. Awesomeness. Yes?

:P
No, it is not.

[JustinHesychast]

I call BS. :P

[Dust and Ashes]

I know you are talking about PnP here but have you tried any multiplayer on Neverwinter Nights? I've played lots of single player campaigns but haven't done any MP on it.

[Dust and Ashes]

Actually, CF was my favorite MMO until they broke out the nerf bat and started changing everything. :D

[JustinHesychast]

Oh My Goodness

I Love You For That!!!1 :D

xDDD

[JustinHesychast]

No, I havent tried that game.

I love MMOs, and will still play them, but I daresay I prefer tabletop!

[Dust and Ashes]

Neverwinter Nights is D&D 3.5 (I believe) and you can do multiplayer campaigns with one person being the DM. I'd love to just merge the two and play NWN around the table with a bunch of laptops. :D

There are quite a few persistent world servers that people create and maintain as well as the great toolset that allows you to create your own maps and campaigns. Bah, I've just gotten too lazy to put pencil to grid paper.

[JustinHesychast]

Gah!... have you read about DnD 4th edition?....

Gross.

It's... online. And... with graphics. And... gross. Do a search on youtube. X_X

[Guineverelyndy]

Actually, CF was my favorite MMO until they broke out the nerf bat and started changing everything. :D
LOL

Best post of the day! (Or was it yesterday?)

[JustinHesychast]

summary of DnD 4e: http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3702535&postcount=1

[repentant]

Is this the fake Orthodox board? I mean seriously, Harry Potter, Dungeons and Dragons..any other satanic activity being persued by the "Orthodox" on this board? No wonder people want to convert to Islam..half the people have NO FAITH!!!

Kurie Elesion

[rusmeister]

What particularly concerns me is this -

1) You are interested in Orthodoxy, and hide it from your mom.

2) You are interested in D&D, and hide it from your mom.

3) Your mom finally links Orthodoxy with D&D.

Oh, and Theo - here's the ref for you -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazes_and_Monsters

[Silentchapel]

I've been playing AD&D for years now and not once it occured to me that it could be satanic or whatever until friendly fundies (American AND Protestant, of course) opened my eyes - I still saw nothing satanic or whatever, I just saw fundies.
As my spiritual father said: "D&D is sinful only if you actually believe those spells work. And if it becomes pornographic."
I do not believe those spells work. Actually, they're only spells in the context of a game. As for pornographic... Let me just say that the closest thing to sex in my game was when one of my players had a fiancee.
When someone approaches me and says dead serious: "I cast charm person on you" I may reconsider my position. But until then, D&D-is-this-and-that should stay where it belongs (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp).

[repentant]

Sad day in Orthodoxy when a Priest does not say that Dungeons and Dragons is evil...

[Silentchapel]

And what, pray tell, do you even know about that priest? Do you know what that holy man has been through? Sad day when sheep believe they're shepards. I apologize for my tone, but I'm pretty annoyed by 'opinion not equal to mine equals apostasy and satanism' stance. We're discussing Dungeons and Dragons, not the Divinity of Christ. And do try to elaborate on your position a tad.

[rusmeister]

Let's not be annoyed!

I sympathize with your position, repentant, but have to agree with SC that we can't make dogmatic pronouncements (particularly in the name of the Church) on D&D, Harry Potter (which I also believe to be more harmful than good) or anything else that's not dogma. We can't second-guess that priest.

That said, all of this stuff encourages the fantasy of unnatural control over events by humans, something that Christian fantasists like Tolkien and Lewis avoided, and in the case of HP and D&D, generally does it in the same ways in which real-life enemies of God (demons, witches, etc) do (personal might acquired through knowledge and learning (Gnosticism) and methods which involve spells and often some form of death to achieve the power.)

I played D&D, TFT and other RPGs in my time, was a GameMaster (or DungeonMaster - basically takes the role of God) and the new world of computer RPGs has become more openly demonic in general than the Gary Gygax stuff of the 70's ever was - even at the age of 15 I knew that stuff was wrong and taking the roles of the good guys and white magic was:
a) boring :yawn:
and
b) did not change that feeling. :o
(Just so you young-uns don't think that us old-timers don't understand anything about what you're up to! ;) )

[Seeker of the Truth]

Anybody ever play Morrowind?

Think I started playing that five years ago...on and off since. :D

Obviously, everybody is going to have different opinions on things. Look at the Iconoclasts way back.

[Oblio]

I don't have a problem with it (and I don't think it is unOrthodox), I kinda wish I could get back into it myself.

[Dust and Ashes]

I don't have a problem with it (and I don't think it is unOrthodox), I kinda wish I could get back into it myself.

Me too but it's so hard to find anyone to play with anymore.

[Dust and Ashes]

Let's not be annoyed!

I sympathize with your position, repentant, but have to agree with SC that we can't make dogmatic pronouncements (particularly in the name of the Church) on D&D, Harry Potter (which I also believe to be more harmful than good) or anything else that's not dogma. We can't second-guess that priest.

That said, all of this stuff encourages the fantasy of unnatural control over events by humans, something that Christian fantasists like Tolkien and Lewis avoided, and in the case of HP and D&D, generally does it in the same ways in which real-life enemies of God (demons, witches, etc) do (personal might acquired through knowledge and learning (Gnosticism) and methods which involve spells and often some form of death to achieve the power.)

I played D&D, TFT and other RPGs in my time, was a GameMaster (or DungeonMaster - basically takes the role of God) and the new world of computer RPGs has become more openly demonic in general than the Gary Gygax stuff of the 70's ever was - even at the age of 15 I knew that stuff was wrong and taking the roles of the good guys and white magic was:
a) boring :yawn:
and
b) did not change that feeling. :o
(Just so you young-uns don't think that us old-timers don't understand anything about what you're up to! ;) )

Too bad he didn't take your very reasonable approach rather than accusing us of having no faith. I agree to a large extent and it truly permeates every aspect of the entertainment media.

[Oblio]

What if we play D&D on the Old Calendar :idea:

[JustinHesychast]

Wow. I thought the DnD hate was a gross Protestant fundie thing. X_X

[JustinHesychast]

Sad day in Orthodoxy when a Priest does not say that Dungeons and Dragons is evil...

And they would probably say that... because it isn't. :P

[Michael the Iconographer]

And they would probably say that... because it isn't. :P
It actually is, Justin, but you are blinded to that fact by the current state of confusion in your life.

[JustinHesychast]

Even when I wasn't so confused a few months ago, I fully embraced fantasy. I love fantasy. It exceeds our wildest dreams and plumbs the depth of the wondrous human imagination. I read fantasy. I play fantasy. I write fantasy.

DnD is a fantasy ROLEPLAYING GAME. Unless you start believing it's real, there is absolutely nothing evil about it.

I'm open to your point of view, if you'd like to explain, however.

[Breaking Babylon]

I've done my fair share of roleplaying in the Forgotten Realms and elsewhere and really had a good time doing so, but I've seen people become totally lost in it and it lead them to having some strange ideas about reality. An old friend of mine who won't be named got so sucked into fantasy that he's living in a house full of slackers who practice being fighters and samurai, go on ghost hunts to exorcise them from people for a fee, cast runes to give people 'guidance'... all kinds of stuff. Two or three of them are bisexual, too.

Can you say 'deluded'? They're the playthings of demons and they think it's something real.

You have to stop to consider that the adversary works through many mediums, and when you open yourself up to certain things it can effect you in different ways. You might think it's completely natural but it isn't, you know?

Heck, when I was 14 I chanted 3 words repetitively that a ouija board told me, and I ended up on drugs and drinking heavily, hating life and ignoring the God Who made it, living a totally depraved, blasphemous and sinful life with people no better.

Thank God I was given a moment of grace to find Him.

Hey, roll some dice if you want to, engage in a little fantasy. Just don't let anyone con you into any paganism. Life might get a little more messed up than you would hope.

[JustinHesychast]

Paganiosm is fun. I like Demeter. :P

Kidding. ;) Or am I? :D

Anywho, I agree Isaac. It can be a really fun thing, expand your mind, and be a chance to hang with friends. Like absolutely any and everything, though, it can be taken too far.

[Hoankan]

I've never been big on fantasy rpging. D&D being the worst of the lot to me, though one game, Pentadragon was cool just because of the way they did the knightly virtues.

I do like Sci-fi gaming such as Fading Suns, Battletech, and Star Trek. Fading Suns uses something similar to the CC with renamed things (Pancreator for God) and the priests do have powers as well as the dangers. Battletech just uses the same faiths we now have and Star Trek is well Star Trek (though I do have an Orthodox npc on the pbem game I do).

There is one game that is absolutely fun to be the good guys in and that's Deadlands. It's a spagetti western horror of good vs. evil and the blessed (certain holy people, usually priests) can call on the power of God to fight the forces of evil. Oh and most people around you don't know that there's a battle between good and evil going on, evil prefering to hide and cause fear from the shadows.

Other than that, I'd say stay far far far away from the World of Darkness stuff.

[rusmeister]

DnD is a fantasy ROLEPLAYING GAME. Unless you start believing it's real, there is absolutely nothing evil about it.

I'm open to your point of view, if you'd like to explain, however.

I think Justin has a good point that needs to be addressed here.

One of the biggest issues (if you set aside ones about time spent on it) is the nature and effect of the fantasy on real life. I hope, Justin, I can paraphrase your statement correctly as a question: Does it matter whether the actions are real or not? Is doing harm in fantasy harmless? Is participating in magical spells involving Hands of Glory harmless as long as it remains in the imagination? (I hope we all agree that the actual actions are indeed harmful)

One thing that comes to my mind right away is Christ's injunction regarding divorce and adultery.
Matt. 5:28
"But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh at a woman to lust after her hath commited adultery with her alreadyin his heart."

In it, it is made clear that what happens in the mind is just as real, for spiritual purposes, as actually doing it. I think that says something about a LOT of what goes on in FRPGs.

I do think that Tolkien, in particular, made an excellent case for the responsible use of fantasy as sub-creation (so won't blast fantasy in general), but it is far too easy for our fantasies to go astray, and when the authors or designers are not even Christian, and just plain don't share our (Orthodox) world view, you can expect to find fantasies not pleasing to God all over the place, making the FRPGs quite dangerous, at the very least.

[Dust and Ashes]

I do understand what you are saying, but there is part of me that even has an issue with the Jedi in Star Wars, no matter how much I do love Star Wars. Yoda may be the most kick butt little green guy in the existence and a most wise old sage, but he still has a power that does not come from God. And all power that does not come from God comes from some place else that is not of God. So while I know Star Wars is fantasy I have to work harder and harder to willingly suspsend my disbelief while watching it the older I get. But Potter, that is just bad stuff and I don't get how Christians can let their children read the stuff.

What I don't understand is how you can so roundly condemn Harry Potter, D&D and even have doubts about Starwars yet think it perfectly fine to listen to AC/DC, Great White, Def Lepperd and any other number of classic rock bands that have dark themes and very dark, suggestive music.

[Seeker of the Truth]

Obviously, we live in a secular world. So, anything we "get into" that hasn't anything to do with God, could be looked at in a bad way.

That said, if we are "into" God and still like things of this world, do you thing God is going to appreciate that?

Probably not, but I don't speak the mind of God, so I don't know for sure.

Even then, that pretty much knocks out everything from: movies, games, TV, etc.

If we all confessed, right now, how "devoted" we are to God (meaning we aren't "into" secular things), then not one of use would be able to say that we are as devoted as we could/should/whatever be.

Condemning one act of "secularist" isn't going to fix the rest.

(Sorry for the random sentences. :))

[Michael the Iconographer]

What I don't understand is how you can so roundly condemn Harry Potter, D&D and even have doubts about Starwars yet think it perfectly fine to listen to AC/DC, Great White, Def Lepperd and any other number of classic rock bands that have dark themes and very dark, suggestive music.
The Classic Rock bands might have dark undertones, but they do not praise openly demonic activity. I have yet to hear a Def Leppard/Great White/Whitesnake/Metallica song which praises witchcraft. AC/DC is very troublesome I must admit because some of their music while being great instrumentally is very problematic lyrically. But at the same time none of those bands go arround playing a game where you practice doing spells on each other or where the characters titles are "the god of ---".

[Macarius]

I think Justin has a good point that needs to be addressed here.

One of the biggest issues (if you set aside ones about time spent on it) is the nature and effect of the fantasy on real life. I hope, Justin, I can paraphrase your statement correctly as a question: Does it matter whether the actions are real or not? Is doing harm in fantasy harmless? Is participating in magical spells involving Hands of Glory harmless as long as it remains in the imagination? (I hope we all agree that the actual actions are indeed harmful)

One thing that comes to my mind right away is Christ's injunction regarding divorce and adultery.
Matt. 5:28


In it, it is made clear that what happens in the mind is just as real, for spiritual purposes, as actually doing it. I think that says something about a LOT of what goes on in FRPGs.

I do think that Tolkien, in particular, made an excellent case for the responsible use of fantasy as sub-creation (so won't blast fantasy in general), but it is far too easy for our fantasies to go astray, and when the authors or designers are not even Christian, and just plain don't share our (Orthodox) world view, you can expect to find fantasies not pleasing to God all over the place, making the FRPGs quite dangerous, at the very least.
The kicker in that would be whether or not participating in, and enjoying, the game constituted an honest desire to engage in real paganism.

I mean, have you ever watched Transformers? Was it cool when the big robot shot the gun and building blew up? Did it make you want to blow up buildings? Does that mean you committed the sin of blowing up a building?

The only danger (but a real one) is failing to separate reality from fiction. Justin, just be careful that you don't use fantasy and role-playing as an escape from dealing with the problems of your real life. They can be a great way to socialize with friends, to engage in imaginative improvised acting, etc, but (as I think you know) they aren't your life. Just make sure you stay engaged.

I'll ask it this way: does any fictional account of something we would call sinful become, by proxy, sinful?

[Futuwwa]

DnD > them all. xD Well, except LOTR.

No, grasshopper. WFRP (http://www.blackindustries.com/?template=WH) >> D&D :cool:

[Dust and Ashes]

The Classic Rock bands might have dark undertones, but they do not praise openly demonic activity. I have yet to hear a Def Leppard/Great White/Whitesnake/Metallica song which praises witchcraft. AC/DC is very troublesome I must admit because some of their music while being great instrumentally is very problematic lyrically. But at the same time none of those bands go arround playing a game where you practice doing spells on each other or where the characters titles are "the god of ---".

Ah, I think I see the source of the problem here. You have probably been exposed to some of the darker game settings that use the D&D rules to play. I've only played in the Forgotten Realms and I don't think I've ever seen anyone named "the god of ---" or anything that praises openly demonic activity. The game is what the gamers and DM make it. If you have a group of Wiccans playing then it will most likely have a Wiccan flavor. I wouldn't play with a group who insisted on giving it that kind of spin.

There are quite a few Christian campaigns that people have created that use the D&D ruleset but don't include magic but are rather adventures that take place in make-believe worlds or even in historic settings or alternate histories. But there again it all depends on one's view of fantasy and make-believe.

I think spsucj has hit the nail on the head that if we got down to brass tacks, we'd have to eliminate practically everything and live like monastics.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Ah, I think I see the source of the problem here. You have probably been exposed to some of the darker game settings that use the D&D rules to play. I've only played in the Forgotten Realms and I don't think I've ever seen anyone named "the god of ---" or anything that praises openly demonic activity. The game is what the gamers and DM make it. If you have a group of Wiccans playing then it will most likely have a Wiccan flavor. I wouldn't play with a group who insisted on giving it that kind of spin.

There are quite a few Christian campaigns that people have created that use the D&D ruleset but don't include magic but are rather adventures that take place in make-believe worlds or even in historic settings or alternate histories. But there again it all depends on one's view of fantasy and make-believe.

I think spsucj has hit the nail on the head that if we got down to brass tacks, we'd have to eliminate practically everything and live like monastics.
The DnD we played when I was in 4th grade (1983/84) had quite a few characters who were titled "the god of (name a power/skill)." Needless to say I didn't play it much and then the next year I went to a new school where rpg's were not the vogue.

[Dust and Ashes]

The DnD we played when I was in 4th grade (1983/84) had quite a few characters who were titled "the god of (name a power/skill)." Needless to say I didn't play it much and then the next year I went to a new school where rpg's were not the vogue.

I remember reading LotR in 9th grade and some D&D geeks looked at the cover with Gandalf holding Glamdring and they scoffed and said, "That book is stupid, wizards can't use swords!" I just laughed. :D

[seashale76]

Things like D&D, Harry Potter, other fantasy books, etc. can't all be judged on anything except a case by case basis. They aren't to be judged just by their content but by the people who would potentially be reading and playing.

For example, the Harry Potter books are all well and good for ME. There is an overt Christian theme to the series that is especially revealed in the last book. I liked them. On the same token however, Harry Potter fanfiction (not all but a lot of it) is terrible for me. Not only is most of it poorly written it isn't at all appropriate for me to be filling my head with considering the content. Also, some (okay most) children need adults who care to filter things for them and discuss things they read with them. I've seen kids as young as sixth grade want to be Christian witches and start calling themselves Wiccan after reading the first Harry Potter book. Their parents didn't care.

If fantasy becomes more important than Christ or keeps us from living our lives in Christ then we need to chuck it from our lives. Fantasy is a huge temptation for me. It is VERY easy for me to lose myself in it and therein lies the danger.

Just my .02

[Michael the Iconographer]

Things like D&D, Harry Potter, other fantasy books, etc. can't all be judged on anything except a case by case basis. They aren't to be judged just by their content but by the people who would potentially be reading and playing.

For example, the Harry Potter books are all well and good for ME. There is an overt Christian theme to the series that is especially revealed in the last book. I liked them. On the same token however, Harry Potter fanfiction (not all but a lot of it) is terrible for me. Not only is most of it poorly written it isn't at all appropriate for me to be filling my head with considering the content. Also, some (okay most) children need adults who care to filter things for them and discuss things they read with them. I've seen kids as young as sixth grade want to be Christian witches and start calling themselves Wiccan after reading the first Harry Potter book. Their parents didn't care.

If fantasy becomes more important than Christ or keeps us from living our lives in Christ then we need to chuck it from our lives. Fantasy is a huge temptation for me. It is VERY easy for me to lose myself in it and therein lies the danger.

Just my .02

Please do explain how there is a Christian theme to a book about witchcraft? And Christian witches? There are no such thing. Witches derive their power from one source only, and it is not Christ.

[seashale76]

Please do explain how there is a Christian theme to a book about witchcraft? And Christian witches? There are no such thing. Witches derive their power from one source only, and it is not Christ.

Michael,

I should have been more clear about the Christian witch thing. This is what those little girls were calling themselves. I know that there isn't such a thing and I told them as much.

As far as the HP books themselves, are you going on hearsay, or have you read them? Do you know the plot? JKR quotes scripture in the last book and the resurrection is a major theme. People have compared Rowling to C.S. Lewis in this respect (and many have viewed Rowling's allegory as better, though I personally disagree). I'm not the only one to see the connection either. It was the topic of discussion after Vespers one evening and other folks brought it up too.

[Seeker of the Truth]

Michael,

I should have been more clear about the Christian witch thing. This is what those little girls were calling themselves. I know that there isn't such a thing and I told them as much.

As far as the HP books themselves, are you going on hearsay, or have you read them? Do you know the plot? JKR quotes scripture in the last book and the resurrection is a major theme. People have compared Rowling to C.S. Lewis in this respect (and many have viewed Rowling's allegory as better, though I personally disagree). I'm not the only one to see the connection either. It was the topic of discussion after Vespers one evening and other folks brought it up too.
I totally forgot about this!

JKR (the author of HP) is actually a Christian (or so she says).

[JustinHesychast]

There's a whole bunch of gods in DnD. God of Travel, god of Death, god of nature, etc. It depends on the campaign. My character, a half elf druid, worships Chizlev, the god of nature and balance and whatnot. He also has a badge for a pet that he can talk to via a mind link. And awesome nature spells. Plus, he uses a scimitar. :D

[Oblio]

I'm wondering if PCs in D&D are actually gods, or in some campaigns they simply take the moniker of 'god of x'. I've not seen any, but then again I played in the early 80s.

[JustinHesychast]

I've never heard of such a thing. I mean, I suppose one could... maybe. But I've never heard of it. Sounds really boring, to have so much power.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Michael,

I should have been more clear about the Christian witch thing. This is what those little girls were calling themselves. I know that there isn't such a thing and I told them as much.

As far as the HP books themselves, are you going on hearsay, or have you read them? Do you know the plot? JKR quotes scripture in the last book and the resurrection is a major theme. People have compared Rowling to C.S. Lewis in this respect (and many have viewed Rowling's allegory as better, though I personally disagree). I'm not the only one to see the connection either. It was the topic of discussion after Vespers one evening and other folks brought it up too.
I refuse to read them because Harry Potter is enrolled in an academy of witchcraft and I don't care what themes one can see in there witchcraft is not something a christian should be reading about.

[rusmeister]

The kicker in that would be whether or not participating in, and enjoying, the game constituted an honest desire to engage in real paganism.

I mean, have you ever watched Transformers? Was it cool when the big robot shot the gun and building blew up? Did it make you want to blow up buildings? Does that mean you committed the sin of blowing up a building?

The only danger (but a real one) is failing to separate reality from fiction. Justin, just be careful that you don't use fantasy and role-playing as an escape from dealing with the problems of your real life. They can be a great way to socialize with friends, to engage in imaginative improvised acting, etc, but (as I think you know) they aren't your life. Just make sure you stay engaged.

I'll ask it this way: does any fictional account of something we would call sinful become, by proxy, sinful?
Yet there is a difference, which I had hoped was obvious enough to not have to spell out - RPGs are specifically participatory. The difference between your observing and enjoying fiction and being the author of that fiction yourself defines our choices (free will) or lack thereof. We have no choice in what Frodo Baggins or Harry Potter do.

Once you've arrived at the free will of FRPGs, you now have the question of why I am engaging in a given action, even in fantasy. Is it good? Is it right? To take your specific example, is engaging in paganism right in fantasy?

One of the common lies spread by pop psychology about fantasy interaction is that it's OK to engage in aggression, sex, whatever in fantasy as 'an outlet'. Separating reality from fantasy is not the only danger here.

Granted that there is nothing necessarily wrong with descriptions of wrongdoing in general - but if we are ceasing to see it as wrongdoing, even in fantasy, it won't be long before the lines start blurring in reality. And once again, there is a difference between reading/passively observing and participating/actively choosing.

[JustinHesychast]

And here I thought Orthodoxy didn't have fundies. =/

[rusmeister]

Some general comments on the other posts here.

It's a little specious to describe criticism of a given phenomenon, be it HP or RPGs, as a call to monastics. Pretty much any call to holiness and away from anything worldly could be described with that broad brush. I don't think even Michael is arguing that we should all go live in monastaries.

So granted, we live in the world, and we enjoy things that are not specifically Christian. But even so, we are called to exercise restraint in what we engage in and to examine whether it is good and profitable.

Which brings me to my other observation - the idea that these things have Christian elements in them. This needs serious qualification. There are elements of truth in all of the world's religions, and we can find stories paralleling Biblical stories in the Koran or Baghavad Gita or even in (American)Indian mythology. Of course you can find moral actions described in Harry Potter. Of course you can find ideas of sacrifice for others, nobility, etc in secular works of fiction. This in itself does not make it Christian. As Michael has been trying (yes, maybe somewhat heavy-handedly) to point out is that there are also a number of anti-Christian values and concepts in this kind of fantasy, that cause it to differ considerably from that of Lewis and Tolkien.

If we compare the worlds described by Tolkien or Lewis and Rowling, we can very easily find things that move Rowling several large steps away from a Christian world view. Should we (ie, do the characters) fear death? What lies beyond it? Do we command powers at our own will or by being granted them by Authority?

(FTR, I read the 1st 3 HP books, so hope I won't be accused of ignorance of content. I couldn't get beyond the 2nd chapter of book 4. The repetition of concepts and poor literary quality made it too boring. (I remember a Muggle sneaking into a house and overhearing hackneyed dialog between the bad guys before he got zapped.) But the lowering of literary standards is not a faith-related issue, so I'll back off that one.)

In conclusion I would say that we should all constantly hold the things we enjoy under question - as we mature we may learn things that change our perspective - does my engagement/enjoyment of these things please God?

[Monica, child of God]

And here I thought Orthodoxy didn't have fundies. =/

Justin, we are people online having a conversation. None of us represent Orthodoxy. If you want to know about Orthodoxy find a priest and go to church.

M.

[rusmeister]

A couple of other little things:
I should have been more clear about the Christian witch thing. This is what those little girls were calling themselves. I know that there isn't such a thing and I told them as much.
1) there ARE witches, but they happen to be real people, not the caracatures we grew up with.

JKR (the author of HP) is actually a Christian (or so she says).
2) I'm aware that Rowling has described herself as Christian. So does nearly half the population of the world. What exactly does that word mean? And how does it affect the objections to her work?

[rusmeister]

Ditto on what Monica said.

[Oblio]

JKR (the author of HP) is actually a Christian (or so she says).


Apparantly so is all of CF.
By definition

[/cynicism]

disclaimer: I've not read one word of HP, I am indebted to JK in that one of our first church visits after leaving our SBC for complex reasons resulted in a no-go because it was centered on an anti-HP sermon (This was the latest evangelical craze at the time, and I thought it absurd). After one more visit to a church in our 'comfort' zone, we started to think outside the 'box' :)

[JustinHesychast]

I read a few chapters of HP. I hated it.

The movies are nice.

[Oblio]

I think I will read TLoTR this fall.

[JustinHesychast]

Tolkien > all. Just so you know. LOTR is amazing.

[Oblio]

I started to read it in college years ago. Got distracted by girls, drugs, R&R (I was a DJ), and school. Not necessarily in that order ;)

[Dust and Ashes]

Some general comments on the other posts here.

It's a little specious to describe criticism of a given phenomenon, be it HP or RPGs, as a call to monastics. Pretty much any call to holiness and away from anything worldly could be described with that broad brush. I don't think even Michael is arguing that we should all go live in monastaries.

So granted, we live in the world, and we enjoy things that are not specifically Christian. But even so, we are called to exercise restraint in what we engage in and to examine whether it is good and profitable.

You misunderstood what I was saying. Not surprising considering how unclear I often am.


In conclusion I would say that we should all constantly hold the things we enjoy under question - as we mature we may learn things that change our perspective - does my engagement/enjoyment of these things please God?

This is what I was trying to say in my typically unclear way. It just seems a bit off to flatly condemn one questionable activity and condone another. That's all I was trying to say.

[Guineverelyndy]

Okay... I play MMORGPS and I even play a warlock. There is no correlation between playing that game and my real life. I have no desire to look into the occult, or to talk to demons or even hurt or kill people. I only play that class because I like the way they play the best (damage over time, you can hit multiple targets, etc). Also, when you're playing an RPG, you're playing in character. You don't necessarily make choices according to what YOU would do in that fantasy arena. It's like acting. You make them according to your character. If I remember correctly, there are a lot of writers who like fantasy rpgs because they can use them as a way to flesh out a story and what a character would do in a particular situation.

Also, there is a big difference between playing a wizard in a world that doesn't actually exist and playing a witch in this one. I've never read HP, so I don't know if that fantasy world is set in this world or not. Obviously we know that wizards and witches do not exist in the way they are portrayed in those books. If someone was playing a satanist in an rpg in earth as we know it, I'd be very concerned. Technically, I play an evil character (according to the game), but really, it is what you make of it.

[JustinHesychast]

Which do you play?

[Dust and Ashes]

Probably WoW if she plays a 'lock.

[Matrona]

If we compare the worlds described by Tolkien or Lewis and Rowling, we can very easily find things that move Rowling several large steps away from a Christian world view. Should we (ie, do the characters) fear death? What lies beyond it? Do we command powers at our own will or by being granted them by Authority?

The point of the entire Harry Potter series is the exact opposite of everything you're implying that it embodies.

1) Death is nothing to fear. Souls are an extremely important component of the series.

2) Those who love us "never really leave us"; Harry encounters those he has loved and lost at several points in the series, and the continuing bond of love between them helps him succeed when mere magical skill is not enough. You should know this if you read Prisoner of Azkaban.

3) Sacrificial love, particularly between parents and children, is the most powerful force in the universe. Sacrificial love can also conquer death (DING-DING-DING-DING-DING!) in a sense that doesn't eliminate death's reality and presence but robs it of its power.

4) Magic (in the HP universe) is a trait that can be expressed somewhat randomly; although it tends to run in families, one has no control over whether one (or one's children) is magic or not.

[Silentchapel]

I refuse to read them because Harry Potter is enrolled in an academy of witchcraft and I don't care what themes one can see in there witchcraft is not something a christian should be reading about.
And there's the crux of the problem.
Yes, there are slackers who cannot separate truth from reality, but blaming it on D&D is to blame as much as we can blame the Bible for Protestantism. D&D is a past time, and like any past time, it can beomce addictive and have bad social impact. I realize I may be projecting too much - I haven't been exposed to a lot of D&D players, but I fail to see what's wrong in saying you cast a non-existant spell at equally non-existant being. If we played real-world campaign and some starts casting spells on his parents and professors, I would be worried.
Not to say that there are RPGs that are worrisome. *cough*Vampire*cough*. But in general - RPGs are what DM makes of them. And while Harry Potter does take place in the real world, I see no problem with it due to the way witchcraft and wizards are depicted.

[repentant]

And here I thought Orthodoxy didn't have fundies. =/

Orthodoxy does not have "fundies" just like Islam does not have "radicals"..either you're Orthodox or you're not. Orthodoxy is not a name, it is a way of life..and anyone who reads Harry Potter garbage, or plays Dungeons and Dragons is not LIVING or PRACTICING Orthodoxy..

[repentant]

And for all you so called Orthdox who worship Harry Potter, and say none of it is real, why don't you take a look at what the author herself says...

DR: Is there a certain amount of very sophisticated mythology that you're trying to work in here?

JKR: There's - I'm not trying to work it in, but... If you're writing a book that, I mean, I do do a certain amount of research, and folklore is quite important in the books, so where I'm mentioning a creature or a spell, that people used to believe genuinely worked - of course it didn't - but, you know, it's still a very picturesque and a very comical world in some ways - then I will find out exactly what the words were, and I will find out exactly what the characteristics of that creature or ghost was supposed to be. But I hope that that appears seamlessly. Children often, often ask me how much of the magic is in inverted commas "real" in the books in the sense that did anyone ever believe in this? I would say - a rough proportion - about a third of the stuff that crops up is stuff that people genuinely used to believe in Britain. Two thirds of it, though, is my invention.


And here is the audio if you do not believe the words here..

http://wamu.org/audio/dr/99/10/r1991020-13962.ram

[rusmeister]

One thing, though, Repentant, even though my sympathies are strongly with you, is that people need to come to these conclusions on their own. In the meantime, if we've said our piece, and people are unwilling to re-examine/consider or if the SF fully understands what they are doing and has OK'd it, then there's not much else you can do (except focus on your own sins).

Again, I agree that a lot of this stuff is highly questionable, and that's part of the problem - as Matrona points out, it is mixed with good stuff. I don't know whether the story of the brownie recipe with the 10 oz of dog poop thrown in gets the point across, but I guess not. Because people find redeeming traits, it doesn't matter what the topic and elements are.
But the fact does remain that if your Bishop, or council of Bishops, hasn't taken a decisive stand on this, then you can't go around treating your stand as if it were Orthodox dogma.

Oh, and yes, as I indicated, I did read "The Prisoner of Azkhaban" (Sirius Black, Ron's rat, yadda yadda).

2 Matrona:
Re: points one and two:
If death is nothing to fear, they sure overreact when it happens. But the real problem is that there is no concept at all of the afterlife; that it is a God-less universe. Tolkien had Iluvatar and the Valar (esp. Elbereth). Lewis had Aslan. Such a secular vision of an afterlife as depicted in HP, even where the existence of people after death is manifested (at best) in support from your loved ones, can hardly be called Christian. It could equally be Islamic.

The point about sacrificial love is good, but again, this idea in general is not specific to Christianity.

re: point 4:
The issue of opponents of HP has never been with the nature of the characters (who they are) but rather with what they do - and all of the noble behavior is mixed with the incantations and personally wielded power, and I say again that there is a fundamental difference between that and power granted by Authority.

A final point is that it is really difficult to deal with RPG's (the participatory form of fantasy) and not be sullied by the demonism, necromancy and other stuff. In other words, it is really hard to play Warcraft 3 and not get through the campaigns without taking the roles of the forces of the Dead and the spirit/demon-commanding elves.

Some people clearly feel that this can be simplified to: "fantasy is one thing; reality - another". Again, to people who feel it's OK to lust after a woman or summon a demon/divining spirit or whatever in your fantasies (this especially applies to participatory fantasy), see the words of Christ I posted above.

[repentant]

You are correct rus, but now they can read and hear from the horses mouth that the things in HP are very real things, instead of burying their head in the sand and ignoring it. Allthough I am sure that no one on here has ever seen/heard this before. Maybe it will wake them up. Of course, as seen in the other thread, people still do not want to believe what is right in fron of them..but then again that person was not Orthodox, so who knows..

As far as a dogmatic stance of the EOC, there is a dogmatic stance against witchcraft and the practice of it. The reading of it would apply as well..the "there is no dogma against it, so it is ok" crap is no excuse..

[AJB4]

You people are mental (well, not really, but still).

Harry Potter, DnD, Star Wars, it's all fiction. I mean, it's fine to not like them, but accusing people of being "fake Orthodox" for disagreeing with your opinion is utter bull.

[repentant]

I will go easy seeing you are 16, but what do you say of JKR admitting that 1/3 of HP is based on really believed witchcraft? Using something real in a fiction setting does not make the whole thing fiction...

Is it ok to watch sex movies just because the sex is fake? Not porn, but R rated, NC-17 rated movies..

And to be Orthodox is not to engage in activites or pursuits with even the slightest hint of demonic antichristian activities..we all sin, but living a sin is a different matter...I guess we can all become prostitutes, and still be Orthodox?

[AJB4]

Orthodoxy does not have "fundies" just like Islam does not have "radicals"..either you're Orthodox or you're not.

Most Muslims are not radicals.

anyone who reads Harry Potter garbage, or plays Dungeons and Dragons is not LIVING or PRACTICING Orthodoxy..

Says who?

[repentant]

Most Muslims are not radicals.

The "radical" are the true Muslims according to the Koran..


Says who?

Says the Church about anyone who lives a life of intentional sin..

Like I said before..prostitution anyone?

[AJB4]

I will go easy seeing you are 16, but what do you say of JKR admitting that 1/3 of HP is based on really believed witchcraft? Using something real in a fiction setting does not make the whole thing fiction...

Is it ok to watch sex movies just because the sex is fake? Not porn, but R rated, NC-17 rated movies..

And to be Orthodox is not to engage in activites or pursuits with even the slightest hint of demonic antichristian activities..we all sin, but living a sin is a different matter...I guess we can all become prostitutes, and still be Orthodox?
Once-believed witchcraft (in the dark Middle Ages maybe), no longer believed, so it doesn't matter anymore.

Just wondering, what do you think of Shakespeare's "Macbeth". The witches in that use spells that people once thought were real...do you have the same opinion about that.

[AJB4]

The "radical" are the true Muslims according to the Koran..

According to one interpretation of the Koran. Ask any Muslim on this website.

Says the Church about anyone who lives a life of intentional sin..

Like I said before..prostitution anyone?

But who said it's a sin to enjoy fiction fantasy?

[repentant]

Once-believed witchcraft (in the dark Middle Ages maybe), no longer believed, so it doesn't matter anymore.

So witchcraft is not practiced anymore?

Just wondering, what do you think of Shakespeare's "Macbeth". The witches in that use spells that people once thought were real...do you have the same opinion about that.

Do not know how true that is, but there is a BIG difference. HP and his friends are seen as heroes using their magic as an easy way out. Macbeth is not something intended for children, nor has it caused children to recite the evil within it.

According to one interpretation of the Koran. Ask any Muslim on this website.

That's because Muslims would not want to admit it. Read the Koran for yourself, forget what they say..there is no diffrence of interpretations for verses that say to make war against Christians and Jews, or any other infadel unbeliever..



But who said it's a sin to enjoy fiction fantasy?

To enjoy known real satanic garbage is a sin..

Listen, you are young and are not even Orthodox. You still have much to learn.

[Silentchapel]

Orthodoxy does not have "fundies" just like Islam does not have "radicals"..either you're Orthodox or you're not. Orthodoxy is not a name, it is a way of life..and anyone who reads Harry Potter garbage, or plays Dungeons and Dragons is not LIVING or PRACTICING Orthodoxy..
There is a perfect story for you somewhere in the Bible.
"Thank you God that I don't read Harry Potter or play D&D unlike Matrona or Justin overthere..."
http://www.goarch.org/en/special/listen_learn_share/publicanpharisee/learn/images/PubPhar.jpg

Frankly, I perfer an Orthodox who plays D&D and Harry Potter over the one who thinks that he can speak on the behalf of the entire Church and decide on his own who's a true Orthodox and who's not. Who made you an Ecumenical Council?

[JustinHesychast]

I will go easy seeing you are 16, but what do you say of JKR admitting that 1/3 of HP is based on really believed witchcraft? Using something real in a fiction setting does not make the whole thing fiction...

Ya. Let's eliminate clouds, grass, trees, fire, etc. In fact, why use English to write the book?

[Dust and Ashes]

Nevermind.

[Dust and Ashes]

Nevermind.

[Seeker of the Truth]

2) I'm aware that Rowling has described herself as Christian. So does nearly half the population of the world. What exactly does that word mean? And how does it affect the objections to her work?

Frankly, claiming to be a Christian doesn't mean squat nowadays.

However, it seems as though she has instilled some Christian-like "morals" in the series.

As far as the genuine names for the spells...I love history, accuracy, myths/legends, etc. So, if I hear something familiar beating throughout books I've read, it simply means that it's alive (in the sense that people have carried it through the ages). For example: the Sorcerer's Stone. I've never heard of it, but when I read the Alchemist about a month ago, I saw it's name and the author wrote about it (it had a key part in a few "personal legends"). I loved it because I knew that it wasn't "made-up" in the sense that other authors have used it.

[Michael the Iconographer]

The ammount of rationlization in this thread by those who seek to justify what they enjoy doing is really quite disturbing.

[Silentchapel]

Says person who likes rock. You'd have fun times with some people over here.

[Guineverelyndy]

Okay... I keep seeing people reference Jesus's comments on lust and saying that is the same thing as someone playing, say, a wizard in an rpg game.

Let's look at this logically, people. What is lust? It's a desire or a fantasy about doing something that you want to do and that you cannot do righteously. Both of these factors have to exist for it to be lust.

Do I want to kill people? No. Do I want to cast spells? No. Case closed. The example does not apply. I cannot speak for everyone else - maybe there are people who really wish they hex other people. In that cash, rpg are probably not a good thing for them and may well be sin.

Do any of you play RISK? How about Monopoly? The game RISK involves conquering the world and wiping out countries. Does this mean you are a power-hungry tyrant at heart? Or perhaps is it really just a game?

[Guineverelyndy]

One more thing I'd like to add that most people seem to be overlooking. Role-playing is not playing yourself. You are playing a character just like an actor plays a character. You just happen to be writing the script as you go. Now tell me, are actors sinning when they play characters who sin?

And to those who asked, yes, I play WoW.

[nutroll]

I don't know what to make from this thread. I don't really think that one can argue that these things are just fantasy and therefore ok. Fantasy is to an extent a way of coping with what we want but can't have, a way of constructing, or participating in a world that is more like what we want than what God has created. In that sense I think that fantasy is not a good thing when indulged in. And yet, when Christ taught us, He taught in parables. Sometimes it is easier to make a point, to teach a lesson, or to express a truth in a fictional world where one can craft each and every character and situation in order to make their point. I think fantasy can be a good thing insofar as it points to God, rather than away from Him. If there are Christian principles being presented which are taken from the fantasy world into the real world, I think it is good. If however, one takes bad things from fantasy into the world, or withdraws from the world into fantasy, it is harmful.

As a teenager, I played a lot of different role playing games. I only played D&D once, as I didn't like that I had to know so much about mythological characters. I mostly played Superhero, espionage, and Star Wars RPGs (so yes I was a nerd). But all of them involved escaping into a world of fantasy for a while, and all of them involved violence to a certain extent. However, I always distinguished between what occurred in the game and real life. I was able to walk away from is having had fun for a few hours, and nothing more. My characters used violence only when attacked or to serve the greater good, and most times, I tried to think of ways to avoid violence whenever possible. I would rate my experience with RPGs somewhere between harmless and beneficial. However, I have seen other people get drawn into these fantasy worlds. I have seen people become obsessed with the games, studying their monster manuals, and learning all that they can from them about mythological beasts. I can't think of a single one of them that is a Christian, although that is probably a correlation rather than causality.

As for Harry Potter, I read the first book, mostly because I wanted to know what the fuss was all about. I didn't find it offensive, neither did I find it particularly interesting (sorry to the Harry Potter fans, it's just not my thing). I can't imagine that it serves as a gateway to witchcraft for children. I know as a kid, I watched Star Wars compulsively, and I have from time to time tried using the force to reach the remote control or get me a drink from the refrigerator, but only ever as a joke. I think that the argument against Harry Potter being presented here lies on the presumption that not only are the spells actual spells as the quote Repentant gave says, but that they specifically call upon demonic powers. I don't know that this presumption is warranted. In 1 Corinthians, St. Paul says that the people could eat foods that had been offered to pagan gods. The reason that they could do this is that there is only one God, and that all those gods are not real. It seems to me that the spells in Harry Potter might be very real spells, but calling upon absolutely nothing. However, St. Paul then goes on to say that they ought not to eat the food so as not to scandalize those who are weak in the faith. I don't think that we ought to give children something that could potentially be dangerous to them. They are (generally speaking) not yet strong in their faith, and could be swayed. I am glad that the Harry Potter books have done so much to encourage children to read. I hope that it does them no spiritual harm, but I am not the one to decide for them and their parents what they should and should not read.

Ultimately, I think that parents should spend more time teaching their children to love God, to love his Holy Church, and to instill in them a burning desire to please God. If a child is given this wonderful gift, they will know for themselves whether something is drawing them toward God or away from God, and they will want to shun those things that are not beneficial to their souls.

[rusmeister]

Okay... I keep seeing people reference Jesus's comments on lust and saying that is the same thing as someone playing, say, a wizard in an rpg game.

Let's look at this logically, people. What is lust? It's a desire or a fantasy about doing something that you want to do and that you cannot do righteously. Both of these factors have to exist for it to be lust.

Do I want to kill people? No. Do I want to cast spells? No. Case closed. The example does not apply. I cannot speak for everyone else - maybe there are people who really wish they hex other people. In that cash, rpg are probably not a good thing for them and may well be sin.

Do any of you play RISK? How about Monopoly? The game RISK involves conquering the world and wiping out countries. Does this mean you are a power-hungry tyrant at heart? Or perhaps is it really just a game?
Hi Guinevere,
I'm not sure you read my post on this carefully:
http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=37898485&postcount=56


it is made clear that what happens in the mind is just as real, for spiritual purposes, as actually doing it. I think that says something about a LOT of what goes on in FRPGs.


Lust is not the only sin that takes place in the mind.
No one is saying that games or fantasy are inherently wrong and I wish it wouldn't keep getting painted that way. But if we make conscious choices to do something we know would be wrong to do in real life it is still wrong. So would it be wrong to defeat infidel hordes trying to take Constantinople? No. Would it be wrong to develop a civilization and defend yourself from your neighbors? No. Would it be wrong to summon a demon? Yes.

Obviously we have to identify many of these lines to not cross on our own - if we're lucky we'll have guidance from a SF - but if we justify all behavior as - "It's just a game" then we are ignoring the principle of sins committed by the mind - in our fantasies - or as one of our prayers goes - "...the dark fantasies of Satan..."

[Silentchapel]

Great post nutroll. This reminded me of a story...
This woman came with her kids to the church - and she never misses out a single service. However, the priest noticed that her kids weren't all too happy with being so regular. So he came to them and asked: "Kids, do you like going to the church?" Kids just say: "No." "And does your Mom ever make you cookies?" "No..."
So the priest turns to the woman: "Sister, go home with these kids and make them cookies." "But Father, what about the service!?" "Forget about the service, this is way more important."

[Guineverelyndy]

Hi Guinevere,
I'm not sure you read my post on this carefully:
http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=37898485&postcount=56



Lust is not the only sin that takes place in the mind.
No one is saying that games or fantasy are inherently wrong and I wish it wouldn't keep getting painted that way. But if we make conscious choices to do something we know would be wrong to do in real life it is still wrong. So would it be wrong to defeat infidel hordes trying to take Constantinople? No. Would it be wrong to develop a civilization and defend yourself from your neighbors? No. Would it be wrong to summon a demon? Yes.

Obviously we have to identify many of these lines to not cross on our own - if we're lucky we'll have guidance from a SF - but if we justify all behavior as - "It's just a game" then we are ignoring the principle of sins committed by the mind - in our fantasies - or as one of our prayers goes - "...the dark fantasies of Satan..."
Except you are acting the part of a character who is doing it, and it is not yourself. It is no different than a writer choosing to make a character in a book do something evil. Would you be sinning if you wrote a story in which you caused a character to sin? It *might* cause you to stumble if doing so forced you to imagine things that would be harmful to your walk with Christ at the time, but that is why it would be sinful, not because to cause an imaginary character to sin is intrinsically sinful.

[JustinHesychast]

What server? I am thinking of starting up EverQuest 2 or WoW again.

[Guineverelyndy]

I'm on Ravenholdt - it's an RPPVP server. People are pretty friendly and the economy is fairly good. Come on over - I'll set you up. ;) My main's name is Darani.

[JustinHesychast]

Alliance... or Horde? >_> I am going to try and find a free online trial tonight so I can get buy 10 days without payment. :P I'm so cheap. :D

Ever played any other MMORPGs?

[Guineverelyndy]

I play Alliance. I'm a good guy (girl)!

I briefly tried FFXI, but I didn't like it. I think I also went onto Runescape for a day, and that also sucked.

[Silentchapel]

I had a huge crush on Meridian 59 way back when Serbia was under sanctions and all... Couldn't afford it - not that I could pay it even if I had money back then. But now... Meh. Bubble's burst.

[Guineverelyndy]

I've never heard of that one.

[Silentchapel]

What Adam is to us - that is Meridian 59 to EQ and WoW. You youngesters wouldn't even hear about Norrath and umm... Place Where Wow Takes Place if there wasn't for Meridian.

[JustinHesychast]

Gah. Horde FTW. :P I was a Tauren Druid. ^_^ I luff druids and wizards.

[repentant]

There is a perfect story for you somewhere in the Bible.
"Thank you God that I don't read Harry Potter or play D&D unlike Matrona or Justin overthere..."
http://www.goarch.org/en/special/listen_learn_share/publicanpharisee/learn/images/PubPhar.jpg

Frankly, I perfer an Orthodox who plays D&D and Harry Potter over the one who thinks that he can speak on the behalf of the entire Church and decide on his own who's a true Orthodox and who's not. Who made you an Ecumenical Council?

Oh thats a good one....but doesn't work...I know I am a sinner...and how does saying witchcraft or anything that preaches it is evil making me an Ecumenical Council? THE CHRCH ALREADY CONDEMNS IT..I am just playing Chef Gordon Ramsey and beringing it to light..I SHOWED you the authors own words...

[Padraig]

Please do explain how there is a Christian theme to a book about witchcraft? And Christian witches? There are no such thing. Witches derive their power from one source only, and it is not Christ.
This will be my only post in this thread:
Hogwarts Professor (http://hogwartsprofessor.com/)

Blessings,
Dn Kevin

[repentant]

Ya. Let's eliminate clouds, grass, trees, fire, etc. In fact, why use English to write the book?

Like I said, you are young..and now you are not even making sense..

[Silentchapel]

Oh thats a good one....but doesn't work...I know I am a sinner...and how does saying witchcraft or anything that preaches it is evil making me an Ecumenical Council? THE CHRCH ALREADY CONDEMNS IT..I am just playing Chef Gordon Ramsey and beringing it to light..I SHOWED you the authors own words...
Your condemnation of us is the problem. Since you keep calling us non-practicing Orthodox and what not. And especially my spiritual father. You became clairvoyant so you know who's practicing and who's not?

[JustinHesychast]

I am afraid that is you that fails to make sense. Witchcraft is condemned, yes. DnD, HP, etc. isn't witchcraft.

This is my last post in the thread in regards to "is DnD and HP evil", because it's beyond the point of ridiculousness, and I am going to continue letting my imagination run wild and free (within the bounds of goodness), and reading and writing and roleplaying and having fun in a perfectly Christian manner.

[repentant]

Your condemnation of us is the problem. Since you keep calling us non-practicing Orthodox and what not. And especially my spiritual father. You became clairvoyant so you know who's practicing and who's not?

Who is condemning? I am just saying what the Church says. If you practice witchcraft, or enjoy in it, that is not Orthodox. There is no room for it in the Church. Byt like Michael said, people must justify what the want to do anyway...

[repentant]

I am afraid that is you that fails to make sense. Witchcraft is condemned, yes. DnD, HP, etc. isn't witchcraft.

This is my last post in the thread in regards to "is DnD and HP evil", because it's beyond the point of ridiculousness, and I am going to continue letting my imagination run wild and free (within the bounds of goodness), and reading and writing and roleplaying and having fun in a perfectly Christian manner.

Please explain what clouds and the things you said have to do with the conversation?

HP IS REAL WITCHCRAFT!! Did you miss the author herself saying it was? People are so into justifying themselves, they ignore the truth..

[repentant]

Something sent to me via PM that really disturbs me, and shows the lack of care for our souls we really have in this demonic garbage..

There isn't anything evil to it. I am chanting to pagan gods daily because I think it's a pretty Youtube song. THAT is probably evil according to the Church. Having fun, pretending, and playing... not so

So do you think chanting to pagan gods on a daily basis is evil to the Church? Do you think they condone or condemn this action? And do you thik one can allow demonic activity into their life by doing this?

[JustinHesychast]

I can't help myself. >.<

From an EO mindset, a yes to probably all your questions. That and playing DnD and having fun with friends is completely different.

[repentant]

But it "feels good" right Justin...?

[JustinHesychast]

The chanting, yes. Because it's spiritual.

DnD, yes. Because it's a fun game. Nothing spiritual at all.

[Seeker of the Truth]

Don't ask a Pentecostal what "feels good".:P

[ClementofRome]

Oh...I see that it is across threads.....

[JustinHesychast]

Don't ask a Pentecostal what "feels good".:P

I went to one once! It was a Church of God.

The most amazing service I have EVER been to. It was so interesting in a really creepy way. :P I loved it.

[ClementofRome]

Yet you have not attended D/L...or at least regularly ??????

For crying out loud child....

[JustinHesychast]

I meant BESIDE Orthodoxy. ;) The Pentecostal service I love for, dare I say this for blasphemy, the live entertainment value.

[ClementofRome]

Oh yes,.....worship is meant to be entertainment....

[ClementofRome]

I suppose...

[JustinHesychast]

That isn't what I meant...

[MariaRegina]

http://z8.invisionfree.com/Orthopraxis/index.php?act=site

Justin, please click the YouTube video at this site.

Then watch it, even if you have done so already.

I don't see how anyone can be interested in playing D&D after watching this video.

[JustinHesychast]

What does that have to do with DnD? I've seen that a bajillon times. It's really pretty.

[MariaRegina]

A lot of things that I used to like, I no longer do.

Since experiencing the Divine Liturgy, everything else on earth pales in comparison.

[disasm]

http://z8.invisionfree.com/Orthopraxis/index.php?act=site

Justin, please click the YouTube video at this site.

Then watch it, even if you have done so already.

I don't see how anyone can be interested in playing D&D after watching this video.
I've seen that video 10 times or so now, and everytime I see it, it gets better. Only 6 more days till Divine Liturgy! 5 till Vespers, since no Vespers on Wednesday sadly :(

[Protoevangel]

Hey guys.

I almost flamed Repentant earlier, because I used to play D&D, and I still feel the desire to play it. I think he really came across sounding like a holier-than-thou jerk in a couple of his posts.

But bottom line, I am beginning to think he is right.

I don't care if D&D or HP are only 0.0000001% accurate in their representation of magic/witchcraft/demons/"gods"/whatever... If one is engaging their time and attention in these activities, they are making these activities, and what they represent (even only in the most minuscule of manners), part of who they are.

I think the same thing is true of other secular entertainment, such as AC/DC, Soulfly (one of my favorite bands), WWE, 007, Happy Tree Friends, ad nauseum... I don't know about the rest of you, but I for one, need to begin thinking about curbing my entertainment-based lifestyle.

[AJB4]

I can read Harry Potter all day and not be affected one bit. Ridiculous!

Read my thread on Rules. (http://foru.ms/t5958506-somanyrules.html)

[AJB4]

I mean, I'll type a spell used in the Harry Potter novels. See what it does to you.

Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy, Stupefy

*Rawr*!!

[AJB4]

LOL. I was very tempted to report Repentant to Fundies Say The Darnest Things.

[repentant]

Is it obvious yet that Justin and AJB4 are the same person...?

[Breaking Babylon]

I don't think they are. I think they're friends who are struggling in both their own ways and in similar ways, easily impressionable at a fragile time in life, rubbing off on each other.

And I think that if they put as much zeal into seeking Christ as they did in video games and searching every corner of nowhere they'd be much better off than I am. ;)

I hope and pray your search is leading you home AJ. We're not much different, you and I.

[Silentchapel]

Who is condemning? I am just saying what the Church says. If you practice witchcraft, or enjoy in it, that is not Orthodox. There is no room for it in the Church. Byt like Michael said, people must justify what the want to do anyway...
I just love your 'I'm saying what the Church is saying' stance. You're saying it, interpreted the way you want it to say.
Btw - does Christ support murders? I recall that in couple of parables of His people die.
I don't enjoy witchcraft. I don't use it on people. I don't read how to do it.
I repeat. I have no problem with repentant's stance. I have a problem with the way he's reprisenting his beliefs. It makes us who like RPGs or Harry Potter look like we're advocating free love, homosexual unions or nestorianism.

[repentant]

I just love your 'I'm saying what the Church is saying' stance.
I don't enjoy witchcraft. I don't use it on people. I don't read how to do it.
I repeat. I have no problem with repentant's stance. I have a problem with the way he's reprisenting his beliefs. It makes us who like RPGs or Harry Potter look like we're advocating free love, homosexual unions or nestorianism.

So if I say that the Church's stance is to not commit fornication, what would you say? Am I wrong? Is it "holier than thou" as some have said to state what the Church says? Or is it because you refuse to acknowledge the fact the HP is witchcraft, you have to say this bologna about how "you love my what the Church says stance"..?

And PLEASE PLEASE STOP BLOWING THINGS OUT OF PREPORTION with your homosexual, nestoriasm accusation crap..

[Silentchapel]

So if I say that the Church's stance is to not commit fornication, what would you say? Am I wrong? Is it "holier than thou" as some have said to state what the Church says? Or is it because you refuse to acknowledge the fact the HP is witchcraft, you have to say this bologna about how "you love my what the Church says stance"..?

And PLEASE PLEASE STOP BLOWING THINGS OUT OF PREPORTION with your homosexual, nestoriasm accusation crap..
Yes, I do agree that it is wrong to do fornication.
However - do I perform witchcraft when I read HP? Answer: no.
And if you disagree with this (since you're clairvoyant enough to know who's 'real' Orthodox), do SHARE how I practice sorcery by reading HP.
Btw - a lot of people here say that their stance may not reprisent the stance of the Orthodox Church, or that people should ask their priest. You say none of these things. You just claim it is the teaching of the Orthodox Church (I don't recall a canon against Harry Potter), claim who's a real Orthodox and who's not - and especially on a subject where opinions are rather divided. My SF sees nothing wrong with HP (except that he considers it bo-riiing), so you'll excuse me if I don't consider you my Vice Spiritual Father.
And you're the one blowing things out of proportion - if reading Harry Potter is the criteria for being or not being true Orthodox - I just don't know what to say.

[repentant]

Yes, I do agree that it is wrong to do fornication.
However - do I perform witchcraft when I read HP? Answer: no.

Did you ever take Philosophy 102 in college? It's a critical reasoning class, you know if A then B kinda stuff. Ok now let's take a chapter out of that book.

Question: Does HP have witchcraft rather real or fake in it?

Answer: yes

Q: Is witchcraft condemned or condoned by the Church?

A: Condemned.

Q. Is fornication condemned or condoned?

A. Condemned, even said by you.

Q. Is it ok to watch r-rated sex movies, even if the sex acts are not real?

A. No it is not.

Q. Are you fornicating when you watch these movies?

A. No.

Q. Does it matter? Is the sin still going into your thoughts?

A. Yes and yes.

Q. So how is it the sin of witchcraft is ok to watch and read in HP, but late night Cinemax is not?

A. IT ISN'T!!!

IF (A) porn rather real sex or not should not be watched by an EOC..

THEN (B) movies or books with other forbidden things SUCH AS WITCHCRAFT should not be watched and read as well...

Do you agree with this assesment?


And if you disagree with this (since you're clairvoyant enough to know who's 'real' Orthodox), do SHARE how I practice sorcery by reading HP.

Again, puting words in my mouth, I NEVER said that.


Btw - a lot of people here say that their stance may not reprisent the stance of the Orthodox Church, or that people should ask their priest. You say none of these things. You just claim it is the teaching of the Orthodox Church (I don't recall a canon against Harry Potter), claim who's a real Orthodox and who's not - and especially on a subject where opinions are rather divided.

The stance of the EOC is AGAINST WITCHCRAFT..do you not understand that? Don't try to make this whole thing about me saying real or fake Orthdox..it was something said to wake people up. Stop twisting this whole arguement.


My SF sees nothing wrong with HP (except that he considers it bo-riiing), so you'll excuse me if I don't consider you my Vice Spiritual Father.
And you're the one blowing things out of proportion - if reading Harry Potter is the criteria for being or not being true Orthodox - I just don't know what to say.

And it is still sad your SF says this. Like I said it is no wonder the leity think this garbage is ok, and why MY SF, who happens to be a very well known and respected Monk from Mt. Athos, is very strict on who he gives the blessing to become a Priest..again get off the true Orthodox thing that was taken completely out of proportion..you are only upset because I said it was sad your SF does not condemn it...and it is, sorry to tell ya..

But yes, if you live a certain life you are not really Orthodox are you? Is a prostitute really Orthodox?

[Silentchapel]

Oh man. Where should I even start!

Q: Is murdering condemned by the Church?
A: Yes it is.
Q: Is watching a war movie killing?
A: No, it's not.
Q: Am I sinning when watching a war movie?
A: I will let you answer this.

The problem here is that Harry Potter doesn't tell you how to do witchcraft, it is about people people who perform fairy tale magic. That's the big difference.
Oh, btw - saying hurtful things in order to 'wake people up'? Please. We're supposed to be Christians here, not politicians.
Oh, and for 'sf form Mt. Athos' - I've witnessed how monkish spiritual fathers destroy laity. Simply, they project their strictness onto their spiritual children who come from laity - which either accept the strictness or snap and leave Orthodoxy. There is a heated discussion overhere whether monks should even be alloved to be spiritual fathers to laity.
Well, prostitutes aren't practicing Orthodox. Sorcerers apparently aren't practicing Orthodox. Am I a sorcerer?

[repentant]

Oh man. Where should I even start!

Q: Is murdering condemned by the Church?
A: Yes it is.
Q: Is watching a war movie killing?
A: No, it's not.
Q: Am I sinning when watching a war movie?
A: I will let you answer this.

If you are going to try and be brilliant, then at least get it straight. You talk about murder in one sentence, and then killing in war in another. Please tell me how this is the same thing? Didn't God strengthen David, Konstantine, etc. in battle? War is a necessary evil, murder is not the same thing..

The problem here is that Harry Potter doesn't tell you how to do witchcraft, it is about people people who perform fairy tale magic. That's the big difference.
Oh, btw - saying hurtful things in order to 'wake people up'? Please. We're supposed to be Christians here, not politicians.

So JKR admitting that 1/3 of the spells are REAL has not sunk in to your head yet i take it?

Oh, and for 'sf form Mt. Athos' - I've witnessed how monkish spiritual fathers destroy laity. Simply, they project their strictness onto their spiritual children who come from laity - which either accept the strictness or snap and leave Orthodoxy. There is a heated discussion overhere whether monks should even be alloved to be spiritual fathers to laity.

Obvioulsy you do not know your Orthodox history...this is probably the most ignorant statement coming from an EOC I have ever heard on this board. It is actually above the "HP is ok" statements in ignorance..

Well, prostitutes aren't practicing Orthodox. Sorcerers apparently aren't practicing Orthodox. Am I a sorcerer?

Are you?

[Silentchapel]

Nevermind. I fail to see how this argument is edifying in any way. Goodbye.

[AJB4]

Is it obvious yet that Justin and AJB4 are the same person...?
We're not! I swear. We are MSN Chat friends now though ;). But no, we do have a ton in common, and we share a lot of struggles, but we're not the same person. I can swear that on a stack of Bibles if you want.

http://www.salvationarmy.org.nz/SITE_Default/x-images/19566.jpg

[Seeker of the Truth]

We're not! I swear. We are MSN Chat friends now though ;). But no, we do have a ton in common, and we share a lot of struggles, but we're not the same person. I can swear that on a stack of Bibles if you want.

http://www.salvationarmy.org.nz/SITE_Default/x-images/19566.jpg
I don't think Justin plays Morrowind.

Case closed. ^_^

[Breaking Babylon]

I love Morrowind. ;)

[Shubunkin]

It has been my experience that some people can handle the fantasy, and some cannot. Whenever I go to a movie for entertainment, it is like a different universe with different rules. It is not like in real life. If a person places real life rules within a movie, then for him/her it is bad. Therefore, I have no problem at all if they want to say this is not of God, and should not be watched. However, if a person is able to keep their perspective and realizes this is not a religious experience, but a fable or story, and just a piece of literature (if reading a book), then to me this person has the proper perspective and does them no harm.

Arguing about this only seems to be causing a lot of offense here, though. This is not love, as we should continue to love our brothers and sisters in Christ. If this is causing division among us, perhaps we should just put this subject away for a while. I am especially talking to you, Repentant.