Legalist

[Armistead]

I once was very fundemental. I sadly find many would rather live by the codes and traditions of man, rather that God's word. Not that all codes or traditions are bad, but they do not carry divine inspiration.

My brother is going to a church that I would like to see him get out. It is a IFBC, more radical than most.

The pastor makes many comments on who is and isn't saved. Actually has a list that the members should stay away from. The list of unsaved according to him are, Billy Graham, Charles Stanley, Joel Olsteen, and a host of others..you get the point.

Women must wear long dresses below the knees. His rule is the 8 inch rule.

The church was taking a trip to the beach. However he says no one can get in the water in a bathing suit. However, you can get in the water fully clothed...

This is just his mindset.. I went to the church once, almost walked out after he called Anna Nicole a whore.
He paid me a visit on a Thursday night. We debated scripture for a long time. Later he told my brother there was no way I could be saved.

So sad.

[JoeWill]

I once was very fundemental. I sadly find many would rather live by the codes and traditions of man, rather that God's word. Not that all codes or traditions are bad, but they do not carry divine inspiration.

My brother is going to a church that I would like to see him get out. It is a IFBC, more radical than most.

The pastor makes many comments on who is and isn't saved. Actually has a list that the members should stay away from. The list of unsaved according to him are, Billy Graham, Charles Stanley, Joel Olsteen, and a host of others..you get the point.

Women must wear long dresses below the knees. His rule is the 8 inch rule.

The church was taking a trip to the beach. However he says no one can get in the water in a bathing suit. However, you can get in the water fully clothed...

This is just his mindset.. I went to the church once, almost walked out after he called Anna Nicole a whore.
He paid me a visit on a Thursday night. We debated scripture for a long time. Later he told my brother there was no way I could be saved.

So sad.
But you can be fundamentalist without being like that pastor.

[twistedsketch]

It's a good thing his opinion doesn't matter. Maybe you should try a conservative evangelical church. I think you would find that not only refreshing, but also doctrinally solid enough to still have the truth.

[Armistead]

It's a good thing his opinion doesn't matter. Maybe you should try a conservative evangelical church. I think you would find that not only refreshing, but also doctrinally solid enough to still have the truth.


I don't go there, my brother and his family just started.
I go to a SBC and like it there very much

[NewGuy101]

But you can be fundamentalist without being like that pastor.

Yessum and Ana Nichole Smith is kind of a hussy.

[Ishida]

Hahaha, "Hussy", that's too funny. (Certain words make me laugh.) Yeah, the guy is a bit too much on the rules side and seems to be forgetting about the love side of the equation. Then again, I could be wrong.

[Debi1967]

Yessum and Ana Nichole Smith is kind of a hussy.
was might be a more appropriate word sadly she is deceased, and we shouldn't speak ill of the dead. It is now up to God to judge her.

[NewGuy101]

was might be a more appropriate word sadly she is deceased, and we shouldn't speak ill of the dead. It is now up to God to judge her.

Give me a break...

[Debi1967]

Give me a break...
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that you may not be judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

[Lisa0315]

I don't think speaking ill of the dead is right either.
It is going to be especially offensive to our Catholic brothers and sisters.

Lisa

[Debi1967]

I don't think speaking ill of the dead is right either.
It is going to be especially offensive to our Catholic brothers and sisters.

Lisa
Yes it would however I think it would be especially offensive to anyone that believes that Christ is our Judge and that we should not take that Authority away from Him.

[LilLamb219]

The church was taking a trip to the beach. However he says no one can get in the water in a bathing suit. However, you can get in the water fully clothed...


So, they get to wear their bathing suit while laying out on the sand, but just can't get in the water with it on?? :P^_^ j/k

Seriously, you should ask why he's letting this church control him so much? Is he scared of having people think he's not saved if he were to question them...or leave???

[NewGuy101]

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that you may not be judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Gee you soud like a liberal...first of all that doesn't mean don't juge as in don't recognize what people do. What it means is don't condem people which I am not doing. She condemned her self.

[NewGuy101]

Yes it would however I think it would be especially offensive to anyone that believes that Christ is our Judge and that we should not take that Authority away from Him.

No one is taking authority away from him....WOW

I'm beginning to see the little click people are talking about here.

[Debi1967]

Gee you soud like a liberal...first of all that doesn't mean don't juge as in don't recognize what people do. What it means is don't condem people which I am not doing. She condemned her self.

No one is taking authority away from him....WOW

I'm beginning to see the little click people are talking about here.

First you say she condemned herself then you say that you are not taking Authority away from Jesus to do that..... that is contradictory.

And what are you talking about again I might add that I sound like a liberal simply because I believe we should not judge anyone's Salvation as that is what Matt 7: 1-5 is directly talking about. That clearly Biblical. That has nothing to do with being Conservative or Liberal but with adhering to God.

You're the one that judged her solely by her works and nothing more because you have no idea what her heart condition was. You in this thread called her a hussy.

And there is no little clique here other than having another Christian confirm what I said and you did not like that so therefore you are assuming that there must be some clique.

Yes we can condemn ourselves but the final decision on that is always left up to God himself and until such time comes that we have His condemnation of her then we should take heed of Matt 7: 1-5. Those are words spoken by the Lord Himself.

[MrJim]

I come across a lot of "legalism" issues amongst mennonite folks. There are a lot of plain groups that have different rules on clothing, cars, radios, etc.

One of the things I had explained to me is that there is no problem with having a congregation set standards with issues such as clothing or tv.

Problem comes when that congregation thinks that others not doing it "their way" are going to hell~then legalism enters into the equation. If the congregation is simply setting their own standards, then good for them.

Those that don't, well, I'm embarrassed the way some of the kids (Church Elder's kids at that) come dressed~wow, I didn't know they made skirts that short and tops that tight:eek:

The idea of Christian Liberty has become an excuse for license to do whatever, and to say anything is to "question my faith" or some such.:sigh:

[WannaWitness]

One of the things I had explained to me is that there is no problem with having a congregation set standards with issues such as clothing or tv.

Problem comes when that congregation thinks that others not doing it "their way" are going to hell~then legalism enters into the equation. If the congregation is simply setting their own standards, then good for them.

That's pretty much the size of it. I mean, it's good when someone has his/her own personal convictions or standards; we all have our own. But we also need to be careful not to become a Pharisee over it. It's very easy, if not careful, to allow this to set in.

[No Swansong]

While these Churches exist and there are many. I would point out that your brother and his family are free to leave and it is there decision whether they do or not, not yours. I have family members who attend such a Church and it is the only one that they found that actually convinced them to amend their lives. They were alcoholic, adulterers, who had no direction in life and were faithful attenders of their "Vineyard" Church (no I am not attacking the Church)

Only when they ended up at an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church did they start to amend their lives. Additionally only then did they begin to witness and share Christ. So at least in their case this seems to be the best environment for them.

[Codger]

I once was very fundemental. I sadly find many would rather live by the codes and traditions of man, rather that God's word. Not that all codes or traditions are bad, but they do not carry divine inspiration.

My brother is going to a church that I would like to see him get out. It is a IFBC, more radical than most.

The pastor makes many comments on who is and isn't saved. Actually has a list that the members should stay away from. The list of unsaved according to him are, Billy Graham, Charles Stanley, Joel Olsteen, and a host of others..you get the point.

Women must wear long dresses below the knees. His rule is the 8 inch rule.

The church was taking a trip to the beach. However he says no one can get in the water in a bathing suit. However, you can get in the water fully clothed...

This is just his mindset.. I went to the church once, almost walked out after he called Anna Nicole a whore.
He paid me a visit on a Thursday night. We debated scripture for a long time. Later he told my brother there was no way I could be saved.

So sad.


Legalism is looked at negatively most of the time, but quite frankly – I loved it. Legalism to me is living by a huge host of doctrines, which is comprised mostly of unwritten rules – rules of conduct. And back in my early adulthood - I was very proud of keeping most of the rules – didn’t drink, smoke, steal, went to Church a lot, paid tithes, didn’t go to movies, didn’t hang out with unbelievers. Yes, there are a lot of rules to keep in legalism.

If I live in legalism, I keep track of all of the rules that I am keeping, and also the rules that others are failing to keep. This creates a kind of comparitive status in the Church - a specialness – a hierarchy of sorts - at least in my own mind. I know where I stood in comparison to others. Somehow I have earned the right to criticize and judge others - partly to maintain my status. I’m speaking introspectively and not of any one else. Add our Denominational pride, pride of knowledge, pride of our doctrinal correctness, and we are well on our way to becoming a Pharisee – which is what I had become in my earlyer years.

But all that changed in adulthood – God determined that he wasn’t going to let me continue with my “little shining badge of superiority" anymore. It had probably helped protect me from a lot of the vices of youth back then – but now it was time to move on toward something better. He seemed to say, “I wish you would take a drink (of Alcohol), so you would stop being so proud of the fact that you don’t drink.” This was the kind of input I was getting. In order to make a long story short, I eventually was able to see what I was doing and quite suddenly suffered a huge collapse of my house of legalism. It was like an unexpected implosion. I was shocked and devastated to realize that I was just a common sinner saved by his grace – nothing more. I only had the same status as everyone else. It was a drop into humility - I felt really lost and alone. I didn’t have any place or status anymore – I had lost my identity and didn’t know who I was anymore. I didn’t have this hidden, mostly superior frame of reference to others anymore. It was a very difficult transition and it took quite awhile to make it. It was a very negative experience to me at the time, but positive in God’s eyes, as I now know.

Legalism says that rules and doctrines are more important than people are. You can easily justify the rejection of people when their doctrines do not agree with yours. Since when does anyone have totally correct doctrines anyway? There is no standard for doctrines because everything has to be interpreted – which always seems to generate multiple directions of thought. I think God deliberately did this so we would not succumb to absolute legalism and know everything with certainty. You have to dig for the truth; and it often does not come out of the book without alternative paths of thought.

God often doesn’t take our little shining badges away from us because sometimes it is the only thing that is keeping us going in life. So timing is important because he said he would not allow more than we could bear. I think there are a lot of crutches we depend on in the Church – and someday God may choose to take them away from us - when the time is right, and we can hold up under the often times disappointment and pain of losing our unrealistic and distorted expectations. Simple things – like being overly attached to people in leadership or ministry. God ultimately wants us to learn how to hear his voice and to walk with him ourselves. We can’t live through someone else’s experience and revelation long term. He took me at least partially out of legalism – I suspect that I am not fully out of it yet.

Legalism cannot substitute for an intimate relationship with God. The law and the scriptures, which we like to change into rules and regulations, are but glimpses and fragments of the total character of God – all to be interpreted through the eyes of love - for God is love.

We’re all growing and maturing – in different areas over time. I guess we need to be mindful to allow God time to change others - just as it has taken a lot of time to change us. And we should not try to take anyone’s little shiney badge away from them – before God’s time.

[Simon_Templar]

While these Churches exist and there are many. I would point out that your brother and his family are free to leave and it is there decision whether they do or not, not yours. I have family members who attend such a Church and it is the only one that they found that actually convinced them to amend their lives. They were alcoholic, adulterers, who had no direction in life and were faithful attenders of their "Vineyard" Church (no I am not attacking the Church)

Only when they ended up at an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church did they start to amend their lives. Additionally only then did they begin to witness and share Christ. So at least in their case this seems to be the best environment for them.
This may be so, but I still can't help but question the truth of a faith that so clearly lacks love and charity even towards fellow believers. (not speaking of your relatives obviously since I don't know them or their church).

Yet, even in such a church, where the members may behave according to "the rules" and appear to live moral lives.. Isn't this a great deal like pharisees who obeyed the law, but didn't love their neighbor, and by their legalistic traditions barred the gates of heaven against the people? Even though they appeared very righteous, according to Jesus, such people were children of Satan, and a den of vipers (an extremely strong insult in the ancient world, basically calling them "mother murderers")

The point being, even if a group like this gets a person to "ammend" their ways and stop being an alcoholic etc, is the person really better off if they become a legalist and have no love for their neighbor?

[No Swansong]

Hi Simon:wave:

This may be so, but I still can't help but question the truth of a faith that so clearly lacks love and charity even towards fellow believers. (not speaking of your relatives obviously since I don't know them or their church).

I would need far more evidence before I would jump to the conclusion that they lack love and Charity. I have gotten to know a number of Churches like the one the OP described and found them to certainly show fruits of the Spirit. The problem is that when one either eschews rules or standards different than their own they rarely take a close look. That the Church disallows mixed swimming is far less concerning to me than the question do they share the Gospel. Which is the ultimate act of Charity.



Yet, even in such a church, where the members may behave according to "the rules" and appear to live moral lives.. Isn't this a great deal like pharisees who obeyed the law, but didn't love their neighbor, and by their legalistic traditions barred the gates of heaven against the people? Even though they appeared very righteous, according to Jesus, such people were children of Satan, and a den of vipers (an extremely strong insult in the ancient world, basically calling them "mother murderers")

Again I would need far more information than simply they wouldn't let people go swimming. The Churches I am aware of behave in the manner they do as a response to what they believe the Bible tells them. They have a love for the word of God and although we may feel they are deficient in their understanding that doesn't negate their motivation. For example some would call me a Pharisee because I didn't let my children watch certain television shows growing up or go trick or treating on halloween. Some would call me a Pharisee because I homeschooled them to keep them from certain influences in the public schools. I assure you however that for me and most of my fundamentalist friends these types of decisions are based upon our love of God.




The point being, even if a group like this gets a person to "ammend" their ways and stop being an alcoholic etc, is the person really better off if they become a legalist and have no love for their neighbor?


Again I fail to see how this implies they have no love of their neighbor. For example I am aware of one particular Baptist Church in the area which is one of those Churches the OP is referring to. This Church feeds thousands of hungry people a month, this church clothes underpriviledged school kids, this church takes in unwed mothers who wish to have their children and have no place to go. I agree with Paul that without Love nothing else really matters but I certainly don't know enough about that particular church to say they are without love and I would argue that most churches that are called Legalistic are not.

[Lisa0315]

Hi, I think I am going to request that this be moved to the Debate SubForum in CCC.

Lisa

[Jim47]

Moved thread to debate sub forum as requested

[Nadiine]

I once was very fundemental. I sadly find many would rather live by the codes and traditions of man, rather that God's word. Not that all codes or traditions are bad, but they do not carry divine inspiration.

My brother is going to a church that I would like to see him get out. It is a IFBC, more radical than most.

The pastor makes many comments on who is and isn't saved. Actually has a list that the members should stay away from. The list of unsaved according to him are, Billy Graham, Charles Stanley, Joel Olsteen, and a host of others..you get the point.

Women must wear long dresses below the knees. His rule is the 8 inch rule.

The church was taking a trip to the beach. However he says no one can get in the water in a bathing suit. However, you can get in the water fully clothed...

This is just his mindset.. I went to the church once, almost walked out after he called Anna Nicole a whore.
He paid me a visit on a Thursday night. We debated scripture for a long time. Later he told my brother there was no way I could be saved.

So sad.
Thanks for correctly defining modern day legalism. Yep, this is legalism and it's also wrongful JUDGING.

I truly worry for people who are this judgmental about APPEARANCE rather than judging with righteous judgment.

[WannaWitness]

True legalism, to me, is taking a particular rule or personal conviction and saying it's a requirement for salvation. It's definitely not wrong to have a certain conviction, but it is wrong to be a Pharisee about it, and judge others by our own personal standards. We sometimes forget that everyone is different.

Here are a few examples of what I personally believe to be of the "legalistic" mindset (some of these may be a little exaggerated, so no offense is meant by it):

It is immodest and unfeminine for a lady or girl to wear pants, and no scissors should ever touch the female head under any circumstances.

The less progressive a musical form is, the more godly it is. Pop and jazz is off limits to a true Christian.

People gamble with playing cards and dice, so to have them in the house is idolatrous devil worship.

Children should never have dolls or stuffed animals, as they would be in possession of a "graven image".

And these just scratch the surface of some of the ridiculous rules that are out there.

While I understand that we should strive for holiness, I don't believe that God is so rigid that we have to walk on pins and needles just to please Him. Walking with the Lord is a joyful thing, and we want the world to be able to see that in us while doing our best to live upright and holy. And if we are really doing our best to please God, that's what counts.

[Simon_Templar]

Hi Simon:wave:



I would need far more evidence before I would jump to the conclusion that they lack love and Charity. I have gotten to know a number of Churches like the one the OP described and found them to certainly show fruits of the Spirit. The problem is that when one either eschews rules or standards different than their own they rarely take a close look. That the Church disallows mixed swimming is far less concerning to me than the question do they share the Gospel. Which is the ultimate act of Charity.





Again I would need far more information than simply they wouldn't let people go swimming. The Churches I am aware of behave in the manner they do as a response to what they believe the Bible tells them. They have a love for the word of God and although we may feel they are deficient in their understanding that doesn't negate their motivation. For example some would call me a Pharisee because I didn't let my children watch certain television shows growing up or go trick or treating on halloween. Some would call me a Pharisee because I homeschooled them to keep them from certain influences in the public schools. I assure you however that for me and most of my fundamentalist friends these types of decisions are based upon our love of God.







Again I fail to see how this implies they have no love of their neighbor. For example I am aware of one particular Baptist Church in the area which is one of those Churches the OP is referring to. This Church feeds thousands of hungry people a month, this church clothes underpriviledged school kids, this church takes in unwed mothers who wish to have their children and have no place to go. I agree with Paul that without Love nothing else really matters but I certainly don't know enough about that particular church to say they are without love and I would argue that most churches that are called Legalistic are not.

Hey Jtbdad,

I'm not so much referring to the fact that they have stricter rules than I think are necessary. That, as you point out doesn't prove that they lack love at all. I would not criticize someone who is more conservative than I in behavior and belief.

The issue is what do they do regarding those who don't follow the same rules. It was indicated in the OP that this church (and it is also true of alot of christians in my experience) brutally condemns anyone who does not adhere to their rules.

That is evidence that they lack love.

I know quite a few people, even in my own family who are more strict than I am. For example, I smoke cigars occasionally and drink alcohol sometimes. There are people I know, even in my family who would consider that to be wordly and very foolish, if not outright sinful.

I don't have a problem with them having more strict rules than I do. I don't think it makes them bad, or unloving.

If, on the other hand, they started accusing me of being an unbeliever, or a false teacher because I had a glass of wine, then there would be a very significant problem with them.

Its not the rules, its the condemnation of others for not following extra biblical rules, that is the issue.

I agree that its easy to judge and most of the time we probably do so prematurely. However, I also point out that the pharisees were among the most apparently righteous people in Israel. They made a point of devoting themselves to righteous behavior and even charity. A church which does not do those things is deffinetly problematic.. but even if a church appears to do those things it is not a guarentee that they really know God.

[Nadiine]

True legalism, to me, is taking a particular rule or personal conviction and saying it's a requirement for salvation. It's definitely not wrong to have a certain conviction, but it is wrong to be a Pharisee about it, and judge others by our own personal standards. We sometimes forget that everyone is different.

Here are a few examples of what I personally believe to be of the "legalistic" mindset (some of these may be a little exaggerated, so no offense is meant by it):

It is immodest and unfeminine for a lady or girl to wear pants, and no scissors should ever touch the female head under any circumstances.

The less progressive a musical form is, the more godly it is. Pop and jazz is off limits to a true Christian.

People gamble with playing cards and dice, so to have them in the house is idolatrous devil worship.

Children should never have dolls or stuffed animals, as they would be in possession of a "graven image".

And these just scratch the surface of some of the ridiculous rules that are out there.

While I understand that we should strive for holiness, I don't believe that God is so rigid that we have to walk on pins and needles just to please Him. Walking with the Lord is a joyful thing, and we want the world to be able to see that in us while doing our best to live upright and holy. And if we are really doing our best to please God, that's what counts.
If you notice, you're using the LIBERALITIES we have in Christ.
Legalists would like to decide what freedoms we have or not. Things that the bible leaves open to our personal convictions from the Holy Spirit (tattoos, piercing, hair style, clothing, gambling, social drinking, makeup, music, etc.) - things that make up our character types,.... who we are.
They want to make everyone Amish and judge you on appearance' sake PLUS what's listed in the Bible as sinful. (the obvious/known sins)...

I consider them control freaks that have some deep personal issues. It's all about conformity and rejecting anyone who doesn't fit the mold they establish.
ie. Pharisees.

[No Swansong]

Hey Jtbdad,

I'm not so much referring to the fact that they have stricter rules than I think are necessary. That, as you point out doesn't prove that they lack love at all. I would not criticize someone who is more conservative than I in behavior and belief.

The issue is what do they do regarding those who don't follow the same rules. It was indicated in the OP that this church (and it is also true of alot of christians in my experience) brutally condemns anyone who does not adhere to their rules.

That is evidence that they lack love.

I know quite a few people, even in my own family who are more strict than I am. For example, I smoke cigars occasionally and drink alcohol sometimes. There are people I know, even in my family who would consider that to be wordly and very foolish, if not outright sinful.

I don't have a problem with them having more strict rules than I do. I don't think it makes them bad, or unloving.

If, on the other hand, they started accusing me of being an unbeliever, or a false teacher because I had a glass of wine, then there would be a very significant problem with them.

Its not the rules, its the condemnation of others for not following extra biblical rules, that is the issue.

I agree that its easy to judge and most of the time we probably do so prematurely. However, I also point out that the pharisees were among the most apparently righteous people in Israel. They made a point of devoting themselves to righteous behavior and even charity. A church which does not do those things is deffinetly problematic.. but even if a church appears to do those things it is not a guarentee that they really know God.
I agree Simon and I appreciate the point you make. It's just that I have experienced a great deal of these types of individuals and normally they are simply less secure with their place in Christ. But your points are well taken and understood.

[Nadiine]

I'd like the terms to be identified in our society better too - these days, any conservative Christians are being labled "fundy's" becuz we hold to the commands spelled out in the bible.

And "Fundamentalists" aren't all "legalists" either. Fundamentalists hold to the written commands found in scripture too - as they are fundamentally stated.

A legalist is a little more than just adhering to clearly given statutes in the bible. They go beyond that to judge by appearance, and control people's liberties.

[WannaWitness]

A legalist is a little more than just adhering to clearly given statutes in the bible. They go beyond that to judge by appearance, and control people's liberties.

That's what I was trying to say.

[Simon_Templar]

I agree Simon and I appreciate the point you make. It's just that I have experienced a great deal of these types of individuals and normally they are simply less secure with their place in Christ. But your points are well taken and understood.
well, its always good to approach such issues with caution, its easy to commit the errors we accuse others of.

When you begin questioning people's faith there is no room for error. In other words you had better be right, or you are very very wrong.

Thats is why it is better not to do it except in the most obvious extreme cases.

I need to keep that one mind ;)

[Rion]

I think it varies from denomination to denomination. I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I've noticed a lot of Legalist churches under the Baptist branch. Not saying Baptists are, just that Legalists seem to call themselves that a lot. Then again, maybe it's just Oklahoma... we have 4000 Baptists churches to each Catholic, Lutheran, etc. church here.