The rite of first communion

[Confess]

http://cyberbrethren.typepad.com/cyberbrethren/2007/08/making-the-case.html

After all the headache our family went through in NC trying to get our children admitted.

This is like fresh cold water during those 100+ degree temps of the past week in many parts of the U.S.

[PreachersWife2004]

Stated plainly, I disagree. I am content with the current practices of our synod. I rocked the boat by being confirmed before I was in eighth grade, and that was enough for me.

[Melethiel]

I agree with Pr. McCain here. Children should be admitted when they're ready.

[Lupinus]

I am not yet confirmed and my Pastor has allowed me to take communion.

We had talked, and been doing small catechism meetings, and by that time I had also on my own read the small catechism with explination twice and a good bit of the book of concord. We had a talk about where I stood on it all, I agreed with all of it, and from there he told that if I felt I was ready and thirsted I could begin taking communion when it was offered.

[DaRev]

This is a topic that I have done some research on...

The practice of communion before confirmation does not fit with either the Scriptural mandate of close communion nor the LCMS practice of close communion.

The Lord's Supper has two aspects. First is the individual aspect which requires the individual to have belief in God first and foremost, and also to believe that they are sinners in need of forgiveness, and that they are receiving the actual body and blood of Jesus in, with, and under the elements of bread and wine. This is in keeping with God's word in 1 Corinthians 11.

There is also the communal aspect, that being that communion is a public confession of faith and agreement with the confession of faith confessed at that altar. When we kneel with others at the rail we are making a public statement that we have "all things in common" as taught in the Scriptures (Acts 2, 1 Corinthains 10). This is why we typically do not commune with the ELCA or Roman Catholics, etc.

While a child can have faith, can believe they are sinners, and can believe that they receive the true body and blood Christ in the Sacrament, they cannot know the confession of faith confessed at that altar until they are taught what that confession is. This is what confirmation instruction teaches.

If a congregation wishes to commune 5th or 6th graders, then start their confirmation instruction in 4th grade so they can commune properly.

The LCMS CTCR document Admission to the Lord's Supper (http://foru.ms/http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w254/jweatherell/pillowfight.jpg) explains the aspects of communing as an individual and communing as a confessor in much better detail.

[BigNorsk]

For LCMS papers on admission to Communion try: http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=511

Marv

[Confess]

While a child can have faith, can believe they are sinners, and can believe that they receive the true body and blood Christ in the Sacrament, they cannot know the confession of faith confessed at that altar until they are taught what that confession is. This is what confirmation instruction teaches.

I don't see where you get this thinking that only confirmation instruction is where a child can be taught this.

Our confessions do not say this. Rather they say:
Who, then, receives this sacrament worthily?

Answer: Fasting and bodily preparation are a good external disci-pline, but he is truly worthy and well prepared who believes thesewords: “for you” and “for the forgiveness of sins.” On the other hand, he who does not believe these words, or doubts them, isunworthy and unprepared, for the words “for you” require truly believing hearts. (SC VI, 9–10; Tappert, 352)

Just as the Holy Spirit revealed to the Apostles who Jesus was so too can the same Holy Spirit reveal to children the truth behind the Sacrament prior to confirmation class with parents catechizing their children. As has happened with many children today who have received the rite of first communion before confirmation class which is found the the new hymnal.

[Qoheleth]

The practice of communion before confirmation does not fit with either the Scriptural mandate of close communion nor the LCMS practice of close communion.


However, I also do not believe that there is any justifiable Scriptural grounds for the current argument that it is a violation of 1 Cor. 11 to commune the children. Luther expressed himself quite clearly on this - and I do not think he was wrong. If Luther was correct on his take, then there really is room for Lutheranism to actually study the topic, and indeed to come to a different conclusion than Lutheran orthodoxy did (which, remember, still refused to condemn the early church for its practice).(Pastor William Weedon-St. Paul Lutheran Church, Hamel, Illinois LCMS.)



The doctrine of adults only communion is a leftover Romanist error that gripped the Church due to the adoption of the doctrine of transubstantiation by the Fourth Lateran Council (in 1215). Communion is for believers and their children. This fact is evidenced by the relationship of the Passover to the Lord's Supper, by the familial nature of Biblical covenants and sacraments, by the nature of a "supper," and by the historical record.

It is suggested that since we are to examine ourselves before the Supper, lest we eat and drink in an unworthy manner (1 Corinthian 11:27-29), we must exclude those who are either not proven believers (even though, Scripturally, we should presume that our children are believers for they are sanctified by their parents) or are unable to examine themselves due to a lack of cognitive ability. If this argument was applied to the supper consistently, then those with mental retardation and very senile people of God would be excluded, since they could not examine themselves! (Rich Bingham)



While it is quite evident that baptized infants are able to return to their Baptism, and therefore should commune as a way of returning to it, there are still Lutherans who want to require more from them. Infants must be capable of the work of examination which we have invented, they claim. To this I would quote Luther, whose words about the Romanist priests are appropriate to Lutheran pastors who would ban infants:

"Thirdly, they deny the inheritance [in Christ's testament], for they are not seeking the forgiveness of sins, as a free gift which Christ procured for us with his body and blood, but they want to earn and attain their own new kind of forgiveness of sins with their sacrifices and works. These holy ones must work so that they will not receive the grace and mercy of God as gifts. Beyond that, each one wants to prepare and make himself worthy of such a sacrament with many prayers, confessions and other works, so that he may be quite pure on arrival, with nothing left over to be forgiven. . . ."


"but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."


The faith of a child...the kingdom of heaven...Feed the Lambs!


Q

[PreachersWife2004]

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks a six year old grasps the idea of right and wrong, and asking for forgiveness is nuts.

Ask a six year old if he believes in santa claus and they'll tell you yes. Ask a six year old if he believes in the easter bunny, and he'll tell you yes. I understand having a child-like faith. I even understand possibly confirming and communing 5th or 6th graders rather than 8th graders.

But toddlers? No way. There's a reason why the courts don't try young children as adults, even if they commit an adult crime. While we understand that the Holy Spirit can move mountains, we also need to use our common sense.

If I ever attended a church where the pastor communed a six year old, I'd get up and walk out and not return.

[Qoheleth]

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks a six year old grasps the idea of right and wrong, and asking for forgiveness is nuts.


Saying, "I'm sorry" and meaning it is impossible for a 6 year old?

At what age precisely, do all people absolutely know right from wrong?


Q

[Lupinus]

There is no "all" age, but theres a certian level where it is safe to say people haven't yet become mature enough to understand. Six years old is a good bet they haven't, as are toddlers.

Confirmation to me isn't the issue, I'm not confirmed and I take communion. It is a matter of understanding what the sacrament is and what it does for us.

Out of curiosity just how are things handled in other churches for children when there is communion? In mine children may come up to recieve a blessing but not communion, same thing in other churches?

[Kalevalatar]

There is no "all" age, but theres a certian level where it is safe to say people haven't yet become mature enough to understand. Six years old is a good bet they haven't, as are toddlers.

Confirmation to me isn't the issue, I'm not confirmed and I take communion. It is a matter of understanding what the sacrament is and what it does for us.

Out of curiosity just how are things handled in other churches for children when there is communion? In mine children may come up to recieve a blessing but not communion, same thing in other churches?

Baptized children are welcome to accompany their confirmed parents/goodparents to the altar. The pastor then asks the parent(s) whether s/he/they wish the child to be blessed or receive the Holy Communion. The recommended age for Communion is five, but of course no one will ask birth records or anything. The majority of parents still opt for the blessing and it is only after the confirmation training (age 14-15) that our kids start to partake the Communion.

[PreachersWife2004]

I love it when churches offer to bless kids at the communion rail. I seemed to be the first parent in history who had to bring up my child to the rail. The pastor seemed a bit taken aback at first, but then recovered to bless him. Thus, they started blessing at our church. I'm also the only one who brings my baby up to the rail at Mt Olive on occasion, and usually the pastor who gives my husband and I communion just overlooks him. No biggie.

Matt is torn on the practice. He doesn't bless, although I've tried to convince him to. But no one else but me brings kids up so...

The whole purpose of confirmation is to educate the kids on what Lutherans believe and why we believe it. I think it's appropriate that it's after acknowledging these doctrines and confessing these doctrines that a teen could and should take communion.

[Confess]

There is no "all" age, but theres a certian level where it is safe to say people haven't yet become mature enough to understand. Six years old is a good bet they haven't, as are toddlers.

Confirmation to me isn't the issue, I'm not confirmed and I take communion. It is a matter of understanding what the sacrament is and what it does for us.

Out of curiosity just how are things handled in other churches for children when there is communion? In mine children may come up to recieve a blessing but not communion, same thing in other churches?
In my church nearly all of the 30+ children from 5 years old on up have memorized portions or all of the cathecism. The ones that can articulate their faith to the pastor after memorizing all 6 parts are the ones who are given the rite of first communion.

My 9 year old can articulate his faith better then my already confirmed 13 year old as well as many adults. I have also heard a 6 year old do the same.

God gives faith and understanding to those whom He wills. A family that focuses on the faith is able to teach their children the faith at earlier ages then the average Christian home. It is to bad that most churches punish those families by refusing to give them what they desire (admission to the Lord's Supper) when they are fully fit to receive it. It makes it hard for those families to respect the church they are in as well as lowers their morale to continue in the Word.

The practice at our church for those who are not communicant members or have not received the rite of first communion is to fold their arms in front of them and bow their heads to receive a blessing. Usually the person who is not a member does this while children just look up at the pastor waiting for his touch and blessing.

This is the same practice all previous congregations that practiced closed communion churches did.

[porterross]

I've never seen a Lutheran pastor not bless a child at the communion rail. I think it helps the kids be less apprehensive about taking communion after they are confirmed, but as my daughter gets closer to her confirmation, she has stopped wanting to accompany me during communion. I guess she's "too big" now that she is a few months from confirmation.

[Confess]

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks a six year old grasps the idea of right and wrong, and asking for forgiveness is nuts.

Ask a six year old if he believes in santa claus and they'll tell you yes. Ask a six year old if he believes in the easter bunny, and he'll tell you yes. I understand having a child-like faith. I even understand possibly confirming and communing 5th or 6th graders rather than 8th graders.

But toddlers? No way. There's a reason why the courts don't try young children as adults, even if they commit an adult crime. While we understand that the Holy Spirit can move mountains, we also need to use our common sense.

If I ever attended a church where the pastor communed a six year old, I'd get up and walk out and not return.
Then I take it you have never taught your children the faith from birth onward. You show a lot of ignorance accusing me of being nuts when I have seen it for myself. My children and my congregation would make you swallow your tongue.

By simply getting up and walking out without returning, you demonstrate that you refuse to listen. Just as my previous pastor refused to examine my son, you are punishing others for their diligence, desire and God given ability.

BTW: ask my children ... any of them if they believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny or what Oct. 31 is about and they WON'T tell you want you assume they will tell you because we do not teach secularism in our home.

Rather they believe Christmas is about Christ's birth, Easter is about His resurrection, Oct. 31 is Reformation Day and Thanksgiving is a day of thanks to God for all his good blessings.

That is all they know.

[PreachersWife2004]

So let me get this straight...

If I start reading parts of Luther's Small Catechism to my little son, and he soon memorizes it, does that mean he's ready for communion? Understanding communion and the doctrines of the Lutheran church go much deeper than memorization.


By the way, Confess, your kids don't possess the corner market on good Christian upbringing. Just because YOU think kids should take communion before they're potty trained doesn't make the rest of us bad parents like you seem to imply. If that's NOT what you intended to imply, then I suggest an edit on your post.

[DaRev]

The bottom line in all of this is that the pastor, who is the one called and ordained to take on the responsibilities of the Public Office of the Ministry, is the "steward of the mysteries" (1 Cor 4:1) and is the one who has to "make an account" (Hebrews 13:17) before God.
There is an awful lot at stake with the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper. The pastor alone has that responsibility, not elders, not councils, not even parents. It is in the best interest of all involved to make sure that the one who receives does so to their benefit and not to their detriment.

[PreachersWife2004]

I've never seen a Lutheran pastor not bless a child at the communion rail. I think it helps the kids be less apprehensive about taking communion after they are confirmed, but as my daughter gets closer to her confirmation, she has stopped wanting to accompany me during communion. I guess she's "too big" now that she is a few months from confirmation.

I think for Matt it's just a case where no one brought their kids up until I came around.

My home church was the same thing. It was like kids weren't supposed to be brought to the railing. But when I was a single parent and my parents weren't in church on a Sunday, I had no choice but to take him up. And that was our special thing until he turned seven. Then he didn't want to come up anymore - he really wanted to sing the distribution hymn more!! :)

[DaRev]

There is a little boy in our congregation who is 4, and sometimes he stays with his great grandmother in the pew when his parents and family members come to the rail (his own choice, BTW, so grandma isn't by herself). I go back and give her communion in the pew. On those times when he stays with her I will bless him there in the pew as well.

[Qoheleth]

In my church nearly all of the 30+ children from 5 years old on up have memorized portions or all of the cathecism.

My 9 year old can articulate his faith better then my already confirmed 13 year old as well as many adults. I have also heard a 6 year old do the same.

God gives faith and understanding to those whom He wills.


If I start reading parts of Luther's Small Catechism to my little son, and he soon memorizes it, does that mean he's ready for communion? Understanding communion and the doctrines of the Lutheran church go much deeper than memorization.


You appear to have equated memorization and then articulation with having faith. Which is it??

Is that all we do is make sure an individual is able to memorize and articulate, then they are good to go.

This amounts to a “works” of right understanding and personal commitment requirement for receiving a communal means of grace. A foundational Reformation principle is soli gratia—by grace alone—and yet I must pass a test in order to receive a central means of grace. What test did Judas pass when Jesus served the elements to him?

Also, The unity of the sacraments of baptism and communion is undermined asScripture makes no explicitly clear pronouncements concerning either infant baptism or communion by children. The Reformed traditions has developed a strong theological framework to support its practices of infant baptism, but this framework is ignored when communion by children is discussed.


Q

[Qoheleth]

If I start reading parts of Luther's Small Catechism to my little son, and he soon memorizes it, does that mean he's ready for communion? Understanding communion and the doctrines of the Lutheran church go much deeper than memorization.


While it is quite evident that baptized infants are able to return to their Baptism, and therefore should commune as a way of returning to it, there are still Lutherans who want to require more from them. Infants must be capable of the work of examination which we have invented, they claim. To this I would quote Luther (again), whose words about the Romanist priests are appropriate to Lutheran pastors who would ban infants:

"Thirdly, they deny the inheritance [in Christ's testament], for they are not seeking the forgiveness of sins, as a free gift which Christ procured for us with his body and blood, but they want to earn and attain their own new kind of forgiveness of sins with their sacrifices and works. These holy ones must work so that they will not receive the grace and mercy of God as gifts. Beyond that, each one wants to prepare and make himself worthy of such a sacrament with many prayers, confessions and other works, so that he may be quite pure on arrival, with nothing left over to be forgiven. . . ."


Q

[DaRev]

What test did Judas pass when Jesus served the elements to him?

Not a valid argumnent since it is not clear that Judas received the Last Supper with the others. And even if he did, it was certainly to his judgement and not his benefit.

[Confess]

So let me get this straight...

If I start reading parts of Luther's Small Catechism to my little son, and he soon memorizes it, does that mean he's ready for communion? Understanding communion and the doctrines of the Lutheran church go much deeper than memorization.


By the way, Confess, your kids don't possess the corner market on good Christian upbringing. Just because YOU think kids should take communion before they're potty trained doesn't make the rest of us bad parents like you seem to imply. If that's NOT what you intended to imply, then I suggest an edit on your post.
You either are not reading or your stuck in assumption mode.

I have never said that my children are communed before they are potty trained. I only have stated that I believe that children are able to commune before the current practice of "age of accountability" where the child must be a certain age for confirmation and later communion.

I am only using my children as an example of so many children that are currently out there who do understand the sacrament, many better then adults who are currently given the sacrament.

Memorization is but one thing that a child is told to go through in our church, then examination. Our pastor does not admit just anyone. He is known through-out the LCMS, ELS and WELS for his faithfulness.

For a child to say to his pastor, "This Sacrament should be taken seriously." and then go on to say be able to explain what he means by "seriously" in his own words means that the child knows, understands and should be admitted.

Don't over simplify this to make your argument. The child who is given the rite of first communion does not have a weak understanding of the sacrament.

[Confess]

The bottom line in all of this is that the pastor, who is the one called and ordained to take on the responsibilities of the Public Office of the Ministry, is the "steward of the mysteries" (1 Cor 4:1) and is the one who has to "make an account" (Hebrews 13:17) before God.
There is an awful lot at stake with the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper. The pastor alone has that responsibility, not elders, not councils, not even parents. It is in the best interest of all involved to make sure that the one who receives does so to their benefit and not to their detriment.
Very true.

[PreachersWife2004]

Q, three things.

#1. You are attributing posts to me that I did not write. In your first post to me, the first quote was written by Confess.

#2. Why does it only say WIFE2004 instead of PreachersWife2004?

#3. Communion is not necessary to our salvation. Baptism isn't absolutely necessary, but necessary. The bible also says that an examination should take place before one takes communion. Each person ought to examine themselves to make sure they are taking communion to their benefit and not detriment. I don't think toddlers have that ability. I even examine myself every time I take it, and yes, there has been two times in my life that I realized I was not properly prepared to receive the Lord's Supper. Would a toddler know the difference?

Confess,

So at what age do you draw the limit? What if a two year old can "articulate" that he believes in Jesus Christ? Ought we be communing him, then, too? That's why I use the statement "before they are potty trained".

Listen you stated your opinion about pastors and churches that won't commune young children, I stated my opinions about people who think it's necessary to commune them. Nothing is going to change my mind, and probably nothing will change yours. I DO know that the majority of pastors in the WELS agree with what I am saying, and even perhaps maybe some of the pastors in the LCMS would too.

So, with that, I am done arguing with you on this matter. I won't ever commune my six year old, and I don't need to hear someone telling me that I am a bad parent and that I didn't raise my children in the faith because of it.

[Confess]

You appear to have equated memorization and then articulation with having faith. Which is it??

Is that all we do is make sure an individual is able to memorize and articulate, then they are good to go.

This amounts to a “works” of right understanding and personal commitment requirement for receiving a communal means of grace. A foundational Reformation principle is soli gratia—by grace alone—and yet I must pass a test in order to receive a central means of grace. What test did Judas pass when Jesus served the elements to him?

Also, The unity of the sacraments of baptism and communion is undermined asScripture makes no explicitly clear pronouncements concerning either infant baptism or communion by children. The Reformed traditions has developed a strong theological framework to support its practices of infant baptism, but this framework is ignored when communion by children is discussed.


Q
You have two different quotes from two different people here. The first quote comes from me, the other quote comes from Preacherswife2004.

To answer your question which I assume is directed to me.

We believe that everyone apart of the church should be well catechized. In our church my husband and I were also asked to recite the catechism as well as my 3 other sons. Memorizing the small catechism demonstrates that a person has learned the chief parts of the faith, being able to take that memorization even further to be able to articulate what you have learned in your own words demonstrates to the pastor that you understand what you believe.

When my eldest son was 7 years old, he could articulate his faith better then I could articulate my faith because I had more false doctrines that I struggled with from being Catholic/Pentecostal and ELCA. My eldest son had read the whole of the Old Testament by the time he was in the first grade and read the the whole of the Catechism by the time he was in the second grade. He had a desire and thirst that far outweighed mine.

Our pastor at the time desired to begin confirmation with him asap, but we didn't due to the fact that we had less understanding of the sacrament then we do now. We couldn't comprehend the fact that our son could understand his faith since we were still struggling with our faith.

We waited a year and at that church and then began classes for him in which the pastor started him on the Large Catechism and BoC since he had everything else completed.

My eldest was a self starter, and was ahead of his parents by the grace of God. He is the one who began teaching us by his example that children do not have to be a certain age to be able to understand.

[Confess]

Q, three things.

#1. You are attributing posts to me that I did not write. In your first post to me, the first quote was written by Confess.

#2. Why does it only say WIFE2004 instead of PreachersWife2004?

#3. Communion is not necessary to our salvation. Baptism isn't absolutely necessary, but necessary. The bible also says that an examination should take place before one takes communion. Each person ought to examine themselves to make sure they are taking communion to their benefit and not detriment. I don't think toddlers have that ability. I even examine myself every time I take it, and yes, there has been two times in my life that I realized I was not properly prepared to receive the Lord's Supper. Would a toddler know the difference?

Confess,

So at what age do you draw the limit? What if a two year old can "articulate" that he believes in Jesus Christ? Ought we be communing him, then, too? That's why I use the statement "before they are potty trained".

Listen you stated your opinion about pastors and churches that won't commune young children, I stated my opinions about people who think it's necessary to commune them. Nothing is going to change my mind, and probably nothing will change yours. I DO know that the majority of pastors in the WELS agree with what I am saying, and even perhaps maybe some of the pastors in the LCMS would too.

So, with that, I am done arguing with you on this matter. I won't ever commune my six year old, and I don't need to hear someone telling me that I am a bad parent and that I didn't raise my children in the faith because of it.
You had gotten too personal on the issue when you started calling people nuts for not thinking your way.

Since you have stated that you won't change your mind on the issue, then I won't go ahead and answer your questions.

[Confess]

Just to be clear. I have come to the point where I sympathize with those pastors who do understand that the current practice of "age of accountability" for the Lord's Supper is wrong, yet cannot change things due their congregation not understanding.

It is a hard position to be in.

But for those who flat out reject it to the point of not even listening to the child's confession of faith, I still have a problem with that. It is not fair that a person who desires the Meal should be shunned a pastor's ear based on their age.

If a pastor does listen and still finds holes in their confession, then at least they are being fair which shows respect for the sacrament and to the family.

[Qoheleth]

Not a valid argumnent since it is not clear that Judas received the Last Supper with the others. And even if he did, it was certainly to his judgement and not his benefit.

Was he not admitted though and by the one that would know...

The question remains, but lets move on any of the other apostles

Method to the madness...


Q

[Qoheleth]

You have two different quotes from two different people here. The first quote comes from me, the other quote comes from Preacherswife2004.


Yes, my mistake, I meant to put your name to the 2nd quote

But still I did mean to piggyback the two together


Q

[Qoheleth]

#2. Why does it only say WIFE2004 instead of PreachersWife2004?

Short formed your name...no offense intended.

My apologies


Q

[Qoheleth]

I even examine myself every time I take it, and yes, there has been two times in my life that I realized I was not properly prepared to receive the Lord's Supper. Would a toddler know the difference?


This is fascinating!

Did you doubt your faith and or the Sacrament at these times or did you have un-confessed sin.


Q

[Confess]

Q,
To examine one's self you are looking at any sins you haven't forgiven of others as well as any sins which you have done to others and have not requested forgiveness for.

The Sacrament asks you to examine your faith, that you believe in these words, "Given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins."

There are prayers in the hymnal for us to use that covers all these so that we do not take the Sacrament to our harm and so that we are reverant and focused on what we are taking instead of thinking of the upcoming football game or how so-n-so in the pew in front of us sing so poorly etc.

[PreachersWife2004]

This is fascinating!

Did you doubt your faith and or the Sacrament at these times or did you have un-confessed sin.


Q

In both cases, I can honestly say it wasn't that I felt that I had unconfessed sins, especially since we have confession and absolution in the beginning of the services.

It was more that I realized I still had ongoing issues with other people that should be resolved. I was harboring some ill feelings about them that I felt needed to be cleared before I took communion.

In both cases, I took care of the instances pretty much ASAP, and in one case I went in and had private communion.

Fortunately for me, I have never doubted my faith. I thank and praise God for that every day of my life!! :bow::pray::prayer:

[PreachersWife2004]

From Christian Worship, Pg. 156

PERSONAL PREPARATION FOR HOLY COMMUNION

Q: What does God tell me about myself in holy Word?

A: He says that I am a sinner and deserve only his punishment.

Q: What should do if I am not aware of my sins or am not troubled by them?

A: I should examine myself according the Ten Commandments and ask how well I have carried out my responsibilities as a husband or wife or single person, as a parent or child, an employer or employee, a teacher or student. Have I loved God with all my heart, gladly heard his Word, and patiently endured affliction? Have I been disobedient, proud, or unforgiving? Have I been selfish, lazy, envious, or quarrelsome? Have I lied or deceived, taken something not mine, or given anyone a bad name? Have I abused my body or permitted indecent thoughts to linger in my mind? Have I failed to do what is right and good?

Q: When I realize that I have sinned against God and deserve his punishment, what should I do?

A: I will confess before God all my sins, those which I remember as well as those of which I am unaware. I will pray to God for his mercy and forgiveness.

Q: How do I receive his gracious forgiveness?

A: His Word assures that Jesus led a pure and holy life for me and died on the cross for me to pay the full price for all my sins. Through faith in Jesus, I have been clothed in my Savior's perfect righteousness and holiness.

Q: What further assurance do I have that Jesus is mine and I am his?

A: In Holy Communion he gives me his body and blood together with the bread and wine as a truly life-giving food and drink to unite me with him and my fellow believers. By means of this sacrament, Jesus not only forgives my sins but sweeps away all my doubts about his love for me, gives me his own strength to live a God-pleasing life, and grants me a joyful foretaste of heaven.

Q: How can I be sure that I receive all these blessings in the Lord's Supper?

A: I have his own word spoken as his last will and testament on the night before he died. There he tells me: "Take and eat; this is my body. Drink from it, all of you; this is my blood which is poured out for you for the forgiveness of sins. Do this in remembrance of me."

Q: How will I respond to this priceless gift from Jesus?

[I]A I will daily thank and praise him for his love to me. With his help I will fight temptation, do my best to correct whatever wrongs I have done, and serve him and those around me love and good works.

Lord Jesus, with joy and gratitude I now come to your table to receive the precious food of your life-giving body and blood. May it strengthen me to remain in you as you remain in me, so that I bear much fruit in devoted service to you and in acts of kindness to others. Amen.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

It may be difficult to see where I would've felt the need to not take communion, but it was definitely something I felt strongly about in both situations. It was frustrating and sad to not receive communion, but it was of my own doing, and I really believe that had I taken communion on those two occasions, they would've been to my detriment.

My husband has something similar in his bulletin for communion. I just can't find it and he is long asleep, snoring blissfully in bed.

And yes, I had to retype this myself.

[CaliforniaJosiah]

For LCMS papers on admission to Communion try: http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=511

Marv


I see nothing in these papers that excludes participants who have not yet been officially Confirmed in the LCMS or the practice of First Communion.


As I understand it, the LCMS has a strong and diverse struggle with this whole issue. The "Church Fathers" have been of varient opinions. For example, Theodore Graebner, long time esteemed professor at St. Louis in the '30's and '40's, wrote, "Synodical fellowship is not an absolute requirement for admission to the sacrament." He maintains that personal worthiness is the over-riding consideration, not doctrinal agreemengt. He stressed pastoral care in individual situations. He specifically states, "The pastor may commune such that are conscious of repentance and hold the essence of faith, including the doctrine of the real presence of the Lord's Supper as a means of grace." ("Holy Communion and Synodical Membership" The Lutheran Witness 67 June 22, 1943, page 210).

In the resolution that terminated altar fellowship with the ALC, there was this, "The LCMS has long encouraged its congregations and pastors to provide responsible pastoral care,including the administation of Holy Communion to Christians who are members of denominations not in fellowship with the LCMS." It also resolved, "That the LCMS recognize that its congregations and pastors, as circumstances warrant, may provide responsible pastoral care to individuals of the ALC."


In 1999 CTCR report, we read, "The active role of the pastor is assumed in these confessional statements: 'inviting some...forbidding others' 'forgive...exclude,' 'preside over the church' and so forth. The Confessions teach that it is the pastor's privilege and responsibility to administer the Sacraments according to the Call he has received. This is not to be done in a high-handed manner, nor should the pastor think that he can see into the hearts of those who commune." (page 40).

And again, We must be sensitive to "the dangers that emerge when our pastors and congregations view individual Christians of differing confessions ONLY as "confessors" and not as individuals (page 46). The CTCR notes 4 dangers when this is done:
1) Denominational membership becomes a substitute for faith as the requirement for worthy communing.
2) The temptation arises to ask "HOW orthodox" one's confession truely is.
3) The intellectualization of the words, 'faith in these words."
4) An evasion of pastoral responsibility and an unwillingness of pastors to "struggle with those genuinely difficult situations of pastoral need and care." (page 47)





The CTCR itself in 1999 proposed this "Communion Card" Statement. I note that it is FAR more revealing for what it does NOT say than it what it does.

"The Lord's Supper is celebrated at this congregation in the confession and glad confidence that, as He says, our Lord gives into our mouths not only bread and wine but His very body and blood to eat and drink for the forgiveness of sins and to strengthen our union with Him and with one another.

Our Lord invites to His table those who trust in His words, repent of their sins, and set aside any refusal to fogive and love as He forgives and loves us, that they mayu show forth His death until He comes.

Because those who eat and drink our Lord's Body and Blood unworthily do so to their great harm and because Holy Communion is a confession of the faith which is confessed at this altar, any who are not yet instructed, in doubt, or who hold to a confession different from this congregation and The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, and desire to receive the Sacrament, are asked to speak with the pastor or an usher.

One will not there is nothing about synodical membership, First Communion, age, or even Baptism (!!). The "hold to" is that of the individual desiring not to be excluded - NOT the congregation in which he is officially registered, it's the faith of the individual, not his congregation.



I was informed that the Confession of the Small Catechism is what determines if one is "worthy." Luther specifically addresses this issue there. Here is what Luther said, "Fasting and bodily preporation are certainly fine outward training, but that person is truly worthy and well prepared who has faith in these words: 'Given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins'. But anyone who does not believe these words or doubts them is unworthy and unprepared, for the words 'for you' require all hearts to believe. Luther's Small Catechism With Explaination, CPH, 1991, page 31.

Again, nothing about synodial affiliation or the official dogmas of the congregation to which one may be officially registered. "Worthy" here is clearly the INDIVIDUALS embrace or lack of embrace of the words "for you."


St. Paul's pastoral advise in this regard is this: "Let a man examine himself." Himself. Certainly, a pastor should assist in this regard, but Paul gives the responsibility not to the pastor vis-a-vis the Sacrament but on the individual.



To the issue of First Communion, I'd refer all to an extensive and excellent report issued by the Board of Parish Education of the LCMS (bulletin 930) entitled "Confirmation and First Communion." It provides a long and very interesting historical account of Luthers and admission to the Sacrament, and how such became associated with Confirmation. It also discusses the historic emphasis on the Sacrament as a Means of Grace

The Milwaukee Convention of the LCMS passed this resolution, "Resolved, that the convention urge the congregations of Synod to study their present practice of Confirmation and first communion with the concern that their members may recieve the Sacrament with blessing and continue in spiritual growth."




The LCMS has a LONG issue of arguing over all this stuff, and in my humble opinion, the dangers of which the CTCR wrote are too often realized instead of the exercise of pastoral responsbility.



Just my view. I know some here passionately disagree with me. I hope we can do so while embracing each other in Christian love.



I'm outta here, LOL



- Josiah




.

[CaliforniaJosiah]

From Christian Worship, Pg. 156

PERSONAL PREPARATION FOR HOLY COMMUNION

Q: What does God tell me about myself in holy Word?

A: He says that I am a sinner and deserve only his punishment.

Q: What should do if I am not aware of my sins or am not troubled by them?

A: I should examine myself according the Ten Commandments and ask how well I have carried out my responsibilities as a husband or wife or single person, as a parent or child, an employer or employee, a teacher or student. Have I loved God with all my heart, gladly heard his Word, and patiently endured affliction? Have I been disobedient, proud, or unforgiving? Have I been selfish, lazy, envious, or quarrelsome? Have I lied or deceived, taken something not mine, or given anyone a bad name? Have I abused my body or permitted indecent thoughts to linger in my mind? Have I failed to do what is right and good?

Q: When I realize that I have sinned against God and deserve his punishment, what should I do?

A: I will confess before God all my sins, those which I remember as well as those of which I am unaware. I will pray to God for his mercy and forgiveness.

Q: How do I receive his gracious forgiveness?

A: His Word assures that Jesus led a pure and holy life for me and died on the cross for me to pay the full price for all my sins. Through faith in Jesus, I have been clothed in my Savior's perfect righteousness and holiness.

Q: What further assurance do I have that Jesus is mine and I am his?

A: In Holy Communion he gives me his body and blood together with the bread and wine as a truly life-giving food and drink to unite me with him and my fellow believers. By means of this sacrament, Jesus not only forgives my sins but sweeps away all my doubts about his love for me, gives me his own strength to live a God-pleasing life, and grants me a joyful foretaste of heaven.

Q: How can I be sure that I receive all these blessings in the Lord's Supper?

A: I have his own word spoken as his last will and testament on the night before he died. There he tells me: "Take and eat; this is my body. Drink from it, all of you; this is my blood which is poured out for you for the forgiveness of sins. Do this in remembrance of me."

Q: How will I respond to this priceless gift from Jesus?

[I]A I will daily thank and praise him for his love to me. With his help I will fight temptation, do my best to correct whatever wrongs I have done, and serve him and those around me love and good works.

Lord Jesus, with joy and gratitude I now come to your table to receive the precious food of your life-giving body and blood. May it strengthen me to remain in you as you remain in me, so that I bear much fruit in devoted service to you and in acts of kindness to others. Amen.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*


.



Anything here about age?
Been confirmed?
The official doctrinal stance of the congregation to which the preson may be officially registered?



.

[Qoheleth]

In both cases, I can honestly say it wasn't that I felt that I had unconfessed sins, especially since we have confession and absolution in the beginning of the services.

It was more that I realized I still had ongoing issues with other people that should be resolved. I was harboring some ill feelings about them that I felt needed to be cleared before I took communion.



Q: When I realize that I have sinned against God and deserve his punishment, what should I do?

A: I will confess before God all my sins, those which I remember as well as those of which I am unaware. I will pray to God for his mercy and forgiveness. (Which you did)

Q: How do I receive his gracious forgiveness?

A: His Word assures that Jesus led a pure and holy life for me and died on the cross for me to pay the full price for all my sins. Through faith in Jesus, I have been clothed in my Savior's perfect righteousness and holiness.(Which you heard)

Q: What further assurance do I have that Jesus is mine and I am his?

A: In Holy Communion he gives me his body and blood together with the bread and wine as a truly life-giving food and drink to unite me with him and my fellow believers. By means of this sacrament, Jesus not only forgives my sins but sweeps away all my doubts about his love for me, gives me his own strength to live a God-pleasing life, and grants me a joyful foretaste of heaven.

Q: How can I be sure that I receive all these blessings in the Lord's Supper?

A: I have his own word spoken as his last will and testament on the night before he died. There he tells me: "Take and eat; this is my body. Drink from it, all of you; this is my blood which is poured out for you for the forgiveness of sins. Do this in remembrance of me."

Q: How will I respond to this priceless gift from Jesus?

[I]A I will daily thank and praise him for his love to me. With his help I will fight temptation, do my best to correct whatever wrongs I have done, and serve him and those around me love and good works. (Im sure you had)



As I look over this, I'm struck with the thought that neither the confession or absolution nor the Word preached nor the promises attached to the Sacrament were sufficient for you to feel "worthy" enough to receive the Body and Blood of Christ.

Why is that?




In both cases, I took care of the instances pretty much ASAP, and in one case I went in and had private communion.


Do you mean Private Confession or Communion?


Q

[PreachersWife2004]

Q,
It was both. My pastor didn't do private communion without performing confession and absolution first. But it's a bit different than what you'd find in a Catholic Church, and the term "private confession" does tend to confuse some. The penitent has the opportunity to confess specific sins if he wishes, but it's pretty much just a general devotion-like informal service. I'm not doing that justice, either.

So I took private confession and private communion, mainly because I really yearned for the Lord's Supper. I don't think I can appropriately put that yearning into words, so forgive my lack of eloquence.

Like I said, I can see how one would look at the examination and wonder why I didn't feel I was ready for the Supper. I guess that's where communion does become a personal issue, as I can't explain why I felt the way I did.

Josiah,
To address your point, I'll lead back to your post one before that. Pastors are given the right and privilege to determine who can take communion. While the WELS does indeed require membership to partake of the Lord's Supper, it is also the Pastor's discretion. If one were to come up to my husband before the service and speak to Matt about his beliefs, and my husband found they were in-line with the WELS, he would probably commune him, that time. But if he continued to come to church and want communion, my husband would then encourage him to seek membership.

There is no law set forth that one MUST be a member of WELS to take communion...but the bible does say that we must examine ourselves. If someone comes to church and doesn't understand what that means, should they still take communion? The point of membership is that the outward appearance is that the partaker understands that concept and has publicly confessed (professed?) their faith. As your own post says, even a pastor cannot know the heart of one coming to the table, and that will be before God. However, he can know that his members and those that he has talked to prior to coming to the table understand what communion is, why we take it, and why it is important to be properly prepared.


I hope this helps.

[DaSeminarian]

Q: When I realize that I have sinned against God and deserve his punishment, what should I do?

A: I will confess before God all my sins, those which I remember as well as those of which I am unaware. I will pray to God for his mercy and forgiveness. (Which you did)

Q: How do I receive his gracious forgiveness?

A: His Word assures that Jesus led a pure and holy life for me and died on the cross for me to pay the full price for all my sins. Through faith in Jesus, I have been clothed in my Savior's perfect righteousness and holiness.(Which you heard)

Q: What further assurance do I have that Jesus is mine and I am his?

A: In Holy Communion he gives me his body and blood together with the bread and wine as a truly life-giving food and drink to unite me with him and my fellow believers. By means of this sacrament, Jesus not only forgives my sins but sweeps away all my doubts about his love for me, gives me his own strength to live a God-pleasing life, and grants me a joyful foretaste of heaven.

Q: How can I be sure that I receive all these blessings in the Lord's Supper?

A: I have his own word spoken as his last will and testament on the night before he died. There he tells me: "Take and eat; this is my body. Drink from it, all of you; this is my blood which is poured out for you for the forgiveness of sins. Do this in remembrance of me."

Q: How will I respond to this priceless gift from Jesus?

[I]A I will daily thank and praise him for his love to me. With his help I will fight temptation, do my best to correct whatever wrongs I have done, and serve him and those around me love and good works. (Im sure you had)



As I look over this, I'm struck with the thought that neither the confession or absolution nor the Word preached nor the promises attached to the Sacrament were sufficient for you to feel "worthy" enough to receive the Body and Blood of Christ.

Why is that?

Q

Perhaps because our worth is only in Christ's forgiveness and not in anything we have done, heard or said. Hearing absolution does not in and of itself make you worthy. What makes you worthy is Christ imputing his righteousness upon you.

[Qoheleth]

Perhaps because our worth is only in Christ's forgiveness and not in anything we have done, heard or said. Hearing absolution does not in and of itself make you worthy. What makes you worthy is Christ imputing his righteousness upon you.



So being absolved no longer matters and how would you determine (as you say above) when Christ has imputed His righteousness upon you enough to be able to receive His Body and Blood?


Sticking with the question...

When we confess and are absolved, Hear the Word of God and by the Sacrament are promised the forgiveness of sins and life itself...this still is not good enough to approach the Sacrament, that is, examined, confessed, absolved, God's Word, promises of the Sacrament???


Q

[Confess]

We never stop needing to confess and receive absolution. Just because you did it 5 minutes ago doesn't make you holy.

The Christian is always beating his fist on his chest in repentance. When he feels the need to stop, then he stops being a Christian for his salvation depends on the knowledge of his sinful condition.

[DaSeminarian]

So being absolved no longer matters and how would you determine (as you say above) when Christ has imputed His righteousness upon you enough to be able to receive His Body and Blood?


Sticking with the question...

When we confess and are absolved, Hear the Word of God and by the Sacrament are promised the forgiveness of sins and life itself...this still is not good enough to approach the Sacrament, that is, examined, confessed, absolved, God's Word, promises of the Sacrament???


Q


Ok,

I wasn't sure I understood where you were going with this. But it is because the sacrament is God's gift to us to receive his blessing of forgiveness won on the cross by Christ. We are not worthy of ourselves but Christ makes us worthy through his sacrament.

Every good gift comes from above...

[Confess]

Also, those in Corinth came to the Lord's Table as believers in Christ. Yet they came to the Table not remembering / believing in these words, "Given and shed for you for the remission of your sins." Rather they had their bellies in mind and gorged themselves.

[DaRev]

And again, We must be sensitive to "the dangers that emerge when our pastors and congregations view individual Christians of differing confessions ONLY as "confessors" and not as individuals (page 46). The CTCR notes 4 dangers when this is done:
1) Denominational membership becomes a substitute for faith as the requirement for worthy communing.
2) The temptation arises to ask "HOW orthodox" one's confession truely is.
3) The intellectualization of the words, 'faith in these words."
4) An evasion of pastoral responsibility and an unwillingness of pastors to "struggle with those genuinely difficult situations of pastoral need and care." (page 47)

This is why communicants must be regarded as BOTH individuals AND confessors.

If we ignore the confessional aspect of the Sacrament, then the following dangers come into play:


In the first place, the current erosion of the importance of doctrine would be accelerated to an alarming extent. Many voices in our present context assert that all truth is relative and that all perspectives are equally valid.

In the second place, if the doctrinal confession of one’s own church body can be ignored, then it must follow that heterodoxy poses no danger to the spiritual lives of Christians.

In the third place, if individual church members are not seen as “confessors” of their church body’s doctrine, then the concept of church membership is watered down to the point of meaninglessness. The rationale for any catechesis in the traditional sense of the term vanishes, and there emerges a resounding contradiction between our own confirmation process and the attitude with which we view members of other denominations. Indeed, there would be no theological rejoinder possible to a member of an adult membership class in one of our churches who publicly rejected (for example) the Lutheran doctrine of baptism and still wanted to join the
congregation.

Fourth, unless individual Christians can be seen as “confessors” of their church body’s doctrine, Scripture’s teaching concerning altar and pulpit fellowship as historically confessed by the LCMS becomes virtually meaningless.

Fifth and finally, the crucial passage, 1 Cor. 11:17–34, places only a minor emphasis (at least explicitly) on the need for doctrinal unity among those who commune together. But we must remember that Paul is dealing with an intra-congregational situation and that elsewhere in the letter he corrects the Corinthians’ errors in matters of both doctrine and personal morality. Moreover, the apostle quite emphatically states that those who commune at the Lord’s Table are engaging in an act of proclamation: it is the Lord’s death that they are proclaiming until he comes again.


The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper is both a personal expression of faith and a communal proclamation/confession of faith. It is a public statement of agreement with each other at the rail and with the confession of the Church. How can one make such a public proclamation of the confession of the Church when they do not yet even know what the confession of the Church is? Offering the Sacrament to those who have yet to be instructed in the faith in order to know what that confession is, goes against the Scriptural mandate of such. It completely ignores half of Scriptures teaching regarding the Sacrament.

Let's not ignore this part of the "communion card" statement reccomended by the Synod:

Because those who eat and drink our Lord's Body and Blood unworthily do so to their great harm and because Holy Communion is a confession of the faith which is confessed at this altar, any who are not yet instructed, in doubt, or who hold to a confession different from this congregation and The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, and desire to receive the Sacrament, are asked to speak with the pastor or an usher.

[Qoheleth]

I wasn't sure I understood where you were going with this. But it is because the sacrament is God's gift to us to receive his blessing of forgiveness won on the cross by Christ. We are not worthy of ourselves but Christ makes us worthy through his sacrament.

Every good gift comes from above...


I am fearfully aware of the gifts given to us in the Sacraments, truly.




We never stop needing to confess and receive absolution. Just because you did it 5 minutes ago doesn't make you holy.

The Christian is always beating his fist on his chest in repentance. When he feels the need to stop, then he stops being a Christian for his salvation depends on the knowledge of his sinful condition.


And I'm sure I may even have a sinful thought just before I receive the Sacrament (God forbid though), but in any case, how does one decide that they are properly prepared to receive the Sacrament (even after we confess and are absolved, Hear the Word of God and by the Sacrament are promised the forgiveness of sins and life itself) as we will continue to sin?

And then, even then, isnt the Sacrament given unto us for the remission of sins and life itself?


Q

[Confess]

And I'm sure I may even have a sinful thought just before I receive the Sacrament (God forbid though), but in any case, how does one decide that they are properly prepared to receive the Sacrament (even after we confess and are absolved, Hear the Word of God and by the Sacrament are promised the forgiveness of sins and life itself) as we will continue to sin?

And then, even then, isnt the Sacrament given unto us for the remission of sins and life itself?


Q

It's not so much the works of asking forgivness of every little sin ever committed, it is the intention, the repentant heart that is the issue.

You come prepared when you come to the table looking at your neighbor and thinking to yourself how well they are dress today .... naaaaa

You come prepared when you come to the table with repentance knowing that Christ shed his body and blood for you for the remission of sins.

[DaSeminarian]

I am fearfully aware of the gifts given to us in the Sacraments, truly.

I realize that but I thought you were asking a leading question looking for a specific answer from someone. I know you know these things, but the way in which you were asking the question lead me to answer the way I did.

[PreachersWife2004]

I realize that but I thought you were asking a leading question looking for a specific answer from someone. I know you know these things, but the way in which you were asking the question lead me to answer the way I did.

That was exactly what I though, too. And then my next thought was why is Q taking my statements out of context?

Q, I chose to not take communion twice. TWICE, in my lifetime of taking communion thus far. It seems to me as though you are making my molehill a mountain. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Qoheleth]

I realize that but I thought you were asking a leading question looking for a specific answer from someone


Well, it seemed to me that what was being conveyed in regard to Holy Communion, was that even after confessing and being absolved and hearing God's Word and so forth, one may decide even then that they are not adequately prepared or repentant enough to receive the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior.

I am wondering then, if this is the case, how can any of us ever approach the altar to receive the life giving Sacrament and therefore it is not a matter of memorization, articulation, age or what have you. It seems that it all becomes subjective and not about trusting in God's mercy and forgiveness and the promises of life.

Q

[PreachersWife2004]

Well, it seemed to me that what was being conveyed in regard to Holy Communion, was that even after confessing and being absolved and hearing God's Word and so forth, one may decide even then that they are not adequately prepared or repentant enough to receive the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior.

I am wondering then, if this is the case, how can any of us ever approach the altar to receive the life giving Sacrament and therefore it is not a matter of memorization, articulation, age or what have you. It seems that it all becomes subjective and not about trusting in God's mercy and forgiveness and the promises of life.

Q

I never claimed it was.

And you are making a molehill out of a mountain. I am not going to debate why I chose to not take communion twice, especially with a non-Lutheran. Just please stop making it to be something it wasn't.

:doh:

[Qoheleth]

In my church nearly all of the 30+ children from 5 years old on up have memorized portions or all of the cathecism.

My 9 year old can articulate his faith better then my already confirmed 13 year old as well as many adults. I have also heard a 6 year old do the same.

God gives faith and understanding to those whom He wills.


The whole purpose of confirmation is to educate the kids on what Lutherans believe and why we believe it. I think it's appropriate that it's after acknowledging these doctrines and confessing these doctrines that a teen could and should take communion.



Well, it seemed to me that what was being conveyed in regard to Holy Communion, was that even after confessing and being absolved and hearing God's Word and so forth, one may decide even then that they are not adequately prepared or repentant enough to receive the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior.

I am wondering then, if this is the case, how can any of us ever approach the altar to receive the life giving Sacrament and therefore it is not a matter of memorization, articulation, age or what have you. It seems that it all becomes subjective and not about trusting in God's mercy and forgiveness and the promises of life.

Q


I never claimed it was.


As I said it seemed to me that you were equating being able to regurgitate doctrine to be able to receive communion...that faith was equal to simple articulation of facts.

Other than having hidden, un-confessed sins of which the person purposely ignores, I do not believe that there is reason not to receive the Sacrament, especially after one has been absolved in the Sacrament of private confession/absolution...thats all.


Q

[PreachersWife2004]

In my church nearly all of the 30+ children from 5 years old on up have memorized portions or all of the cathecism. The ones that can articulate their faith to the pastor after memorizing all 6 parts are the ones who are given the rite of first communion.

My 9 year old can articulate his faith better then my already confirmed 13 year old as well as many adults. I have also heard a 6 year old do the same.

POST #14.

I did NOT write this, as you have now TWICE tried to credit me with it. Please, PLEASE learn how to quote properly.

[PreachersWife2004]

So let me get this straight...

If I start reading parts of Luther's Small Catechism to my little son, and he soon memorizes it, does that mean he's ready for communion? Understanding communion and the doctrines of the Lutheran church go much deeper than memorization.

Q, THIS is what I had to say in regards to memorization.

[PreachersWife2004]

And if what you believed was truly the case, why even the need for examination? Yet the bible instructs us to examine ourselves.

It is not for you to judge why a person opts to not take communion. That relationship is actually between God and that person.

[Qoheleth]

And if what you believed was truly the case, why even the need for examination? Yet the bible instructs us to examine ourselves.

It is not for you to judge why a person opts to not take communion. That relationship is actually between God and that person.



I believe that examination is part of Confession and Absolution.


I assure, I have no right, nor am I judging anyones relation and communion with God, never. We are all His children seeking the kingdom of God.


Pax


Q

[PreachersWife2004]

I believe that examination is part of Confession and Absolution.


I assure, I have no right, nor am I judging anyones relation and communion with God, never. We are all His children seeking the kingdom of God.


Pax


Q

If that is truly the case, then I'm not sure why you went about making such a big production out of the fact that I have not chosen to go up to the Table twice. I answered your question twice as to why I still felt like I was unworthy to partake, and it still wasn't good enough for you.n.

[Qoheleth]

I answered your question twice as to why I still felt like I was unworthy to partake, and it still wasn't good enough for you.n.



Certainly it has nothing to do with it being "good enough for me", not in any way.

If I have confessed and have been absolved and desire the Sacrament, for me, I know I may sin even before I receive Christ's Body and Blood next.

But I wonder, if we cannot or do not rely on God's mercy and forgiveness and we decide when this actually takes place, are we not rejecting the promises of the Gospel as it relates to the Sacrament?

That you did not approach the Sacrament twice is not my concern, nor should it be. I am merely asking a question to you , myself and others about what does it mean to be "worthy" and "prepared" and then to not take it upon ourselves to say when God is merciful. We should simply trust...no?


Q

[Radicchio]

These are quite interesting posts regarding communion. A few weeks ago I took my nephew to church. He is about 37 years, but is mentally handicapped and I would guess mentally at an age of about 5or 6 at best. I did take him up to receive communion.

Does he understand, probably not? But, I would not deny him this beautiful gift from our Lord. For that matter, I think it would be great to have the Pastor present at time of birth ready with a spoon to commune at birth.

For the sake of His sorrowful passion have mercy on us and the whole world

[DaSeminarian]

These are quite interesting posts regarding communion. A few weeks ago I took my nephew to church. He is about 37 years, but is mentally handicapped and I would guess mentally at an age of about 5or 6 at best. I did take him up to receive communion.

Does he understand, probably not? But, I would not deny him this beautiful gift from our Lord. For that matter, I think it would be great to have the Pastor present at time of birth ready with a spoon to commune at birth.

For the sake of His sorrowful passion have mercy on us and the whole world


While Holy Communion is a gift, it is not for people who have not been instructed in the faith. Granted it is up to the clergy to determine the readiness of anyone who has not taken Holy Communion before, but was your nephew able to examine his heart to determine his sinfulness? You said that he has a mentality of a 5 or 6 year old. We usually do not commune children at that age because they do not yet comprehend what Holy Communion is to them.

[DaRev]

While Holy Communion is a gift, it is not for people who have not been instructed in the faith. Granted it is up to the clergy to determine the readiness of anyone who has not taken Holy Communion before, but was your nephew able to examine his heart to determine his sinfulness? You said that he has a mentality of a 5 or 6 year old. We usually do not commune children at that age because they do not yet comprehend what Holy Communion is to them.

Yet even they can be instructed in the faith enough to receive the Sacrament and make that confession. I have instructed one such person here.

This is gravely important since unprepared reception of the Sacrament has such dire consequences. I just don't understand how people cannot see that from the Scriptures. It is only beneficial for those who are prepared. To commune an infant at birth is ridiculous, let alone spiritually dangerous.

[DaSeminarian]

Yet even they can be instructed in the faith enough to receive the Sacrament and make that confession. I have instructed one such person here.

This is gravely important since unprepared reception of the Sacrament has such dire consequences. I just don't understand how people cannot see that from the Scriptures. It is only beneficial for those who are prepared. To commune an infant at birth is ridiculous, let alone spiritually dangerous.


I was more sceptical about the mature age of the nephew. He said about 5 or 6. I think even you would wonder whether a 5 or 6 year-old would have the mental capacity to understand the significance after you have spent time preparing them. Again it would be up to the Pastor to determine this, but there are those Pastors who think that Holy Communion is for everyone regardless of their understanding.

[ByzantineDixie]

Other than having hidden, un-confessed sins of which the person purposely ignores, I do not believe that there is reason not to receive the Sacrament, especially after one has been absolved in the Sacrament of private confession/absolution...thats all.


Q, please excuse the intrusion but I was wondering....

Maybe it's because you are talking with the Lutherans or maybe the instruction of your priest has been different from mine...which is possible, we all need different medicine...but are you not required to keep the Western fast before Communion (in general...not you specifically...as I understand each person may have a differing fasting rule)?

What you say about not being worthy reminds me of one of my favorite prayers of preparation for communion.

Second Prayerof St. Basil the Great

I know, O Lord, that I partake of Thy immaculate Body and precious Blood unworthily, and that I am guilty, and eat and drink judgment to myself by not discerning the Body and Blood of Thee my Christ and God. But taking courage from Thy compassion I approach Thee, for Thou hast said: "He who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood abides in Me and I in him." Therefore have compassion, O Lord, and do not make an example of me, a sinner, but deal with me according to Thy mercy; and let these Holy Things be for my healing and purification and enlightenment and protection and salvation and sanctification of body and soul, for the turning away of every phantasy and all evil practice and diabolical activity working subconsciously in my members, for confidence and love towards Thee, for reformation of life and security, for an increase of virtue and perfection, for fulfillment of the commandments, for communion with the Holy Spirit, as a provision for eternal life, and as an acceptable defense at Thy dread Tribunal, not for judgment or for condemnation.

[Qoheleth]

.but are you not required to keep the Western fast before Communion

Yes, from midnight till Mass.

The Prayer of St. Basil is one that never lets me doubt the Mercy of God as does this prayer...


LORD Jesus Christ, I approach Thy banquet table in fear and trembling, for I am a sinner, and dare not rely on my own worth, but only on Thy goodness and mercy. I am defiled by my many sins in body and soul, and by my unguarded thoughts and words. Gracious God of majesty and awe, I seek Thy protection, I look for Thy healing. Poor troubled sinner that I am, I appeal to Thee, the fountain of all mercy. I cannot bear Thy judgment, but I trust in Thy salvation. Lord, I show my wounds to Thee and uncover my shame before Thee. I know my sins are many and great, and they fill me with fear, but I hope in Thy mercies, for they cannot be numbered.

LORD Jesus Christ, Eternal King, God and man, crucified for mankind, look upon me with mercy and hear my prayer, for I trust in Thee. Have mercy on me, full of sorrow and sin, for the depth of Thy compassion never ends.

PRAISE to Thee saving sacrifice, offered on the wood of the cross for me and for all mankind. Praise to the noble and precious Blood, flowing from the wounds of my crucified Lord Jesus Christ and washing away the sins of the whole world.

REMEMBER, Lord, Thy creature, whom Thou hast redeemed with Thy blood; I repent my sins, and I long to put right what I have done. Merciful Father, take away all my offenses and sins; purify me in body and soul, and make me worthy to taste the Holy of Holies. May Thy Body and Blood, which I intend to receive, although I am unworthy, be for me the remission of my sins, the washing away of my guilt, the end of my evil thoughts, and the rebirth of my better instincts. May it incite me to do the works pleasing to Thee, and a firm defense of body and soul against the wiles of my enemies. Amen. (Saint Ambrose)





Q

[DaRev]

Has this turned into TAW? :scratch:

[PreachersWife2004]

Good question. :confused:

[ByzantineDixie]

Come on, guys! It's all this Lutheran hospitality...who could resist? :hug:

[DaRev]

Maybe it's just that you both are still Lutheran at heart, but just afraid to admit it. ^_^

[DaSeminarian]

Maybe it's just that you both are still Lutheran at heart, but just afraid to admit it. ^_^

Dix is still married to one. She has to have a soft spot in her heart for him.

[ByzantineDixie]

I do...he's a hottie...second from the left.

http://bp1.blogger.com/_bPef-tgJjNY/RlQucUuyKFI/AAAAAAAAAFA/u3vBJIMMUSw/s400/sola-rota.jpg

[C.F.W. Walther]

Dix is still married to one. She has to have a soft spot in her heart for him.
Yep Rose---We don't forget things like that :P

[C.F.W. Walther]

I do...he's a hottie...second from the left.

http://bp1.blogger.com/_bPef-tgJjNY/RlQucUuyKFI/AAAAAAAAAFA/u3vBJIMMUSw
All I get is an error ???

[ByzantineDixie]

Ya, it didn't work the way I wanted so I just put the picture in the post.

Elder Al just turned 50 a few weeks ago...he's holding up well.

[Qoheleth]

This is gravely important since unprepared reception of the Sacrament has such dire consequences. I just don't understand how people cannot see that from the Scriptures. It is only beneficial for those who are prepared. To commune an infant at birth is ridiculous, let alone spiritually dangerous.


Of what does true worthiness consist?

“That person is truly worthy and well prepared who has faith in these words: ‘Given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins.’ But anyone who does not believe these words or doubts them is unworthy and unprepared, for the words, ‘for you’ require all hearts to believe.”(Luther’s Small Catechism, “Sacrament of the Altar.”)

These words are repeated and elaborated by Luther in the Large Catechism:

"It remains for us to consider who it is that receives this power and benefit. Briefly, as we said above concerning Baptism and in many other places, the answer is: It is he who believes what the words say and what they give, for they are not spoken or preached to stone and wood but to those who hear them, those to whom Christ says, ‘Take and eat,’ etc. . . . Whoever lets these words be addressed to him and believes that they are true has what the words declare."(Large Catechism, Lord’s Supper, V:33-35. Tappert ed., p. 450)

So, when God says a man is to examine himself, God means a person must ascertain that he has been given faith by God and is kept in that faith. If the person is sure of God and the faith He gives, then that person has examined himself and is worthy. It is as Christ says in II Corinthians 13:5, “Test (peirazete) yourselves if you are in the faith, examine (dokimazete) yourselves.”

Certainly we would not deny that baptized infants have faith, else we would have to deny our whole baptismal theology and Scripture. Our Lord says in Matthew 18 that they believe: “If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” They have the exact same faith in the crucified and risen Christ that the rest of the Church has been given, for we believe that in the exact same way that the Holy Spirit has called, gathered and enlightened us, He has called, gathered and enlightened the whole Church, infants included, in the one true faith.

There are not two Christian faiths—one for infants and one for adults. There is one Christian faith, and this Christian faith is the only Biblical and Confessional prerequisite for the Supper. If one is sure that Christ gives His body and blood for him, that Christ is his Savior, then one has a place at the Lord’s Table. This certainty is what God grants to even the smallest of His children.

If you doubt this, think again and repent of your arrogance. Why do I call you arrogant? Because if you think that somehow you are more capable of pleasing God with your ability to examine yourselves, that you are superior in holiness to these infants, then it is not them, but you who should do a better job of examining. Luther writes,

According to its substance, therefore, the mass is nothing but the aforesaid words of Christ: ‘Take and eat, etc.’ [Matt. 26:26], as if he were saying: ‘Behold, O sinful and condemned man, out of the pure and unmerited love with which I love you, and by the will of the Father of mercies , [I]apart from any merit or desire of yours, promise you in these words the forgiveness of all your sins and life everlasting.’( “The Babylonian Captivity of the Church,” LW Fortress Press: Philadelphia, 1959 Vol. 36, p. 42.)

For us to claim that by reason of age and intellect we are somehow more capable of pleasing God is to deny that our only righteousness is that of Christ. It is to indulge in a form of Pelagianismno matter how sincerely we believe that we are simply being faithful to the Word.

"Hence, the only worthy preparation and proper observance is faith, the faith by which we believe in the mass, that is, in the divine promise. Whoever, therefore, desires to approach the altar or receive the sacrament, let him beware lest he appear empty-handed [Exod. 23:15; 34:20; Deut. 16:16] before the face of the Lord God. But he will be empty-handed unless he has faith in the mass, or this new testament. By what godless work could he sin more grievously against the truth of God, than by this unbelief of his? By it, as much as in him lies, he convicts God of being a liar and a maker of empty promises. The safest course, therefore, will be to go to the mass in the same spirit in which you would go to hear any other promise of God, that is, prepared not to do or contribute much yourself, but to believe and accept all that is promised you there.

Luther says that the same faith which hears any other promise of God is what is required for right reception of the Supper. Thus baptismal faith and eucharistic faith are not simply of the same cloth, but one and the same thing. There is no difference. Luther cannot say this enough.

“There are but two things in the mass, the divine promise and the human faith, the latter accepting what the former promises.”(“The Babylonian Captivity”, p. 48.)

The same human faith which grasped the promise at Baptism is all that God requires of those who would grasp the promise of the Supper. And even this is not Pelagianism, for this faith God requires is not what He requires man to give, but what He gives to man.(Rev. Scott M. Marincic - LCMS)


Q

[DaRev]

Luther and the Confessions MUST be taken in light of the Scriptures, since neither is above them.

1 Cor. 11:27-29 (ESV)
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.

These words cannot be ignored, and yet are completely by those who advocate open and infant communion.

[Qoheleth]

These words cannot be ignored, and yet are completely by those who advocate open and infant communion.

Not ignored, context is given as the understanding involved Scripture and Confessions and Luther.

Yet as this usually goes, Luther means nothing, the Confessions count for very little and then we are left with Scripture and whatever or whoever's personal interpretation of said Scripture.

Along these lines, shall we discuss the unambiguous, emphatic and direct command to baptize infants?


Q

[BreadAlone]

Luther and the Confessions MUST be taken in light of the Scriptures, since neither is above them.

1 Cor. 11:27-29 (ESV)
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.

These words cannot be ignored, and yet are completely by those who advocate open and infant communion.
I agree, infant communion is foolishness and quite simply blatant disregard for the warnings God is giving us through the Apostle Paul.

However, I think if an individual thinks that they are ready for the Sacrament, we shouldn't stop them, as we tend to do in our corner of the world..

[DaRev]

However, I think if an individual thinks that they are ready for the Sacrament, we shouldn't stop them, as we tend to do in our corner of the world..

Based upon what, though? This is where the responsibility of the pastor as the steward of the mysteries comes in. It is his call as to who should be admitted to the table of the Lord, based upon the responsibilities of the Office and the authority given that Office by Christ.

I agree that age should not be a factor, but instruction and preparedness most certainly are in order to keep with the Biblical mandate concerning the Sacrament. If someone who is 10 or 11 years old is capable of understanding the Sacrament and thus making that public proclamation of agreement with the confession of the Church, then why not confirm them at 10 or 11? The notion of communing them a age 10 or whatever but not confirming them until age 14 or whatever is backwards and makes no sense.

[DaSeminarian]

Along these lines, shall we discuss the unambiguous, emphatic and direct command to baptize infants?


Q

Why should we discuss this when as you say, the command is emphatic and direct.

[PreachersWife2004]

For one thing, baptism is necessary for salvation (yes, we know, not absolutely necessary). Communion is not. WE don't do anything for our baptism, but communion is a statement on our part that we agree with what the church teaches. It is a statement of unity. Even if a child can recite Luther's small catechism by rote, it is not indicative that the child fully understands the doctrines of the church.

[Qoheleth]

This is where the responsibility of the pastor as the steward of the mysteries comes in. It is his call as to who should be admitted to the table of the Lord, based upon the responsibilities of the Office and the authority given that Office by Christ.


and the Scriptures (you forgot that) correctly understood.

And what happens when the pastor makes a mistake as to when one is ready and admits them to the sacrament? Certainly the pastor is not infallible in this regard.

“That person is truly worthy and well prepared who has faith in these words: ‘Given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins.’ But anyone who does not believe these words or doubts them is unworthy and unprepared, for the words, ‘for you’ require all hearts to believe.”

I know of many 4 year olds that, with the faith of child, never questioning, that they are receiving the Lords Body and Blood for forgiveness and life. They have respect, reverence and fear for this...with a child like faith that I wish we all had.

Q

[DaRev]

Even if a child can recite Luther's small catechism by rote, it is not indicative that the child fully understands the doctrines of the church.

We need to be careful here because the same thing can be said of adults. What is required is instruction and examination by the pastor who is the steward of the mysteries. It is his call and no one elses, not elders, not voter's, not even parents.

[DaRev]

I know of many 4 year olds that, with the faith of child, never questioning, that they are receiving the Lords Body and Blood for forgiveness and life. They have respect, reverence and fear for this...with a child like faith that I wish we all had.

Do they have "all things in common" including the Apostle's teachings as per 1 Corinthians 10 and Acts 2 (the Scriptures, can't forget that) in order to make that public proclamation of faith by receiving the Sacrament? I don't think so.

[Qoheleth]

baptism is necessary for salvation (yes, we know, not absolutely necessary). Communion is not. WE don't do anything for our baptism, but communion is a statement on our part that we agree with what the church teaches. It is a statement of unity. Even if a child can recite Luther's small catechism by rote, it is not indicative that the child fully understands the doctrines of the church.

The Eucharist is not merely or simply or firstly a statement of unity...it is the Very Body and Blood of Christ for Life and Forgiveness.

That is not necessary??

Then why did our Lord god and savior institute and command us to do this...receive His body and Blood, if it is not necessary?

Boiler-plate statements need to be understood before simply parroted without any context


Q

[Qoheleth]

Why should we discuss this when as you say, the command is emphatic and direct.

Because as you know, it is not, and therefore a context must be given just as context is needed for 1 Cor. 11 27-29.


Q

[PreachersWife2004]

The Eucharist is not merely or simply or firstly a statement of unity...it is the Very Body and Blood of Christ for Life and Forgiveness.

That is not necessary??

Then why did our Lord god and savior institute and command us to do this...receive His body and Blood, if it is not necessary?

Boiler-plate statements need to be understood before simply parroted without any context


Q

It's not a boilerplate statement, Q, and I'm this close to reporting you because you are debating in a forum where you are not allowed to debate.

Communion is certainly not necessary for salvation. Communion is not the only way we receive forgiveness for our sins. Never did Jesus say "you must partake of my body and blood to get in to the heavenly kingdom".

[Qoheleth]

Do they have "all things in common" including the Apostle's teachings as per 1 Corinthians 10

Idolatry and sacrifices to Idols...are you afraid children are making a sacrifice to idols or are being idolaters at the communion rail or something. As for Acts, why would they not have all things in common as this Chapter describes, in context?


Q

[DaRev]

Idolatry and sacrifices to Idols...are you afraid children are making a sacrifice to idols or are being idolaters at the communion rail or something. As for Acts, why would they not have all things in common as this Chapter describes, in context?


Q

The context has to do with orthodox vs. false teachings. It has to do with proper understanding of the confession of faith that is proclaimed at the rail.

[Qoheleth]

It's not a boilerplate statement, Q, and I'm this close to reporting you because you are debating in a forum where you are not allowed to debate.

Communion is certainly not necessary for salvation. Communion is not the only way we receive forgiveness for our sins. Never did Jesus say "you must partake of my body and blood to get in to the heavenly kingdom".

I simply can not believe that Christ our God would waste his breath and institute this holy Mystery for life and salvation...simply to be, well, unnecessary. I can hardly believe that the Holy Spirit would waste His time in having this communicated in Scripture


Jesus assured us, Jn 6:56 "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." God prepared us first through natural marriage and then through the Holy Eucharist for the supernatural marriage to come at the end of time, Rev 20:7 "For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride [the Church] has made herself ready; it was granted her to be clothed in … the righteous deeds of the saints." The Holy Eucharist, through which Christ abides in us and we in Him, will be our wedding feast. Rev 19:9 "Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb."


But alright, report if you feel the need to and be at peace.


Q

[Qoheleth]

The context has to do with orthodox vs. false teachings. It has to do with proper understanding of the confession of faith that is proclaimed at the rail.


Your assuming then that they have been falsely taught concerning the Sacrament. But that would be a presumption on your part.

So each and every Lutheran will have without fail, an equal and identical understanding of the ALL the Lutheran Confessions which they are to accept (LCMS anyway)?


Q

[Melethiel]

It's not a boilerplate statement, Q, and I'm this close to reporting you because you are debating in a forum where you are not allowed to debate.

Communion is certainly not necessary for salvation. Communion is not the only way we receive forgiveness for our sins. Never did Jesus say "you must partake of my body and blood to get in to the heavenly kingdom".
Has something changed? Last I checked, we allowed debate...:scratch:

[PreachersWife2004]

I simply can not believe that Christ our God would waste his breath and institute this holy Mystery for life and salvation...simply to be, well, unnecessary. I can hardly believe that the Holy Spirit would waste His time in having this communicated in Scripture


Jesus assured us, Jn 6:56 "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." God prepared us first through natural marriage and then through the Holy Eucharist for the supernatural marriage to come at the end of time, Rev 20:7 "For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride [the Church] has made herself ready; it was granted her to be clothed in … the righteous deeds of the saints." The Holy Eucharist, through which Christ abides in us and we in Him, will be our wedding feast. Rev 19:9 "Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb."


But alright, report if you feel the need to and be at peace.


Q

Q, it is unnecessary for salvation. If, for whatever reasons, a believer went his whole life without taking communion, he would still be saved.

Do NOT put words in my mouth. I never said communion was simply unnecessary.

[PreachersWife2004]

Has something changed? Last I checked, we allowed debate...:scratch:

Well yeah, if you're Lutheran.

Q is not. He's not supposed to be here telling us how wrong we are.

At least that's how I understood the rules. If I'm wrong, then I apologize. I haven't reported him, especially since I've been engaging him throughout this debate.

However, he's started throwing around insults, veiled though they are, and that's pretty much where I draw the line.

[DaRev]

Your assuming then that they have been falsely taught concerning the Sacrament. But that would be a presumption on your part.

I am assuming that infants haven't been taught anything about the Sacrament.

So each and every Lutheran will have without fail, an equal and identical understanding of the ALL the Lutheran Confessions which they are to accept (LCMS anyway)?

The Confirmation Rite asks "Do you confess the teachings of the Evangelical Lutheran Church as you have come to know them through the Small Catechism?" The assumption is that communicant members have been taught that much. How much of that is taught to infants?

[DaSeminarian]

Your assuming then that they have been falsely taught concerning the Sacrament. But that would be a presumption on your part.

So each and every Lutheran will have without fail, an equal and identical understanding of the ALL the Lutheran Confessions which they are to accept (LCMS anyway)?


Q

When you were a Lutheran and I am assuming you were confirmed as one. Were you taught the whole Book of Concord or just the Small Catechism. Last time I checked, churches in the LCMS only required the Small Catechism to be taught in Confirmation. Therefor your assertion that the LCMS requires the whole Lutheran Confessions to be taught is wrong on your part.

[Qoheleth]

Do NOT put words in my mouth. I never said communion was simply unnecessary.


baptism is necessary for salvation (yes, we know, not absolutely necessary). Communion is not.


This is how I understood your statement and that is how I responded to it...


I simply can not believe that Christ our God would waste his breath and institute this holy Mystery for life and salvation...simply to be, well, unnecessary. I can hardly believe that the Holy Spirit would waste His time in having this communicated in Scripture





Baptism is for the remission of sins and life , It is an external means of grace Instituted by Christ which communicates life, forgiveness and salvation. The Holy Eucharist is also an external means to communicate grace and is a continuation and fulfillment of Baptism...no?

Maybe we could do away with Baptism and all the Sacraments and simply ignore them because in the end...all we need is the Gospel.

But, I do not believe that anything writtenin the Scriptures are unnecessary as the Holy Spirit assured that it was delivered to us by and through the Church. He would not waste his breath, the entire Scriptures are necessary.



However, he's started throwing around insults, veiled though they are,

No, I have not. I'm sorry but your mistaken.


Q

[Qoheleth]

The Confirmation Rite asks "Do you confess the teachings of the Evangelical Lutheran Church as you have come to know them through the Small Catechism?" The assumption is that communicant members have been taught that much. How much of that is taught to infants?

And yet it is a very common practice in the LCMS to commune persons way before they are confirmed, which is not a sacrament in the Lutheran church, so why is this an issue (confirmation/communing) or such a major stumbling block?


Q

[Qoheleth]

When you were a Lutheran and I am assuming you were confirmed as one. Were you taught the whole Book of Concord or just the Small Catechism. Last time I checked, churches in the LCMS only required the Small Catechism to be taught in Confirmation. Therefor your assertion that the LCMS requires the whole Lutheran Confessions to be taught is wrong on your part.


thats not what I said...


So each and every Lutheran will have without fail, an equal and identical understanding of the ALL the Lutheran Confessions which they are to accept (LCMS anyway)?



So what happens if there is agreement on the Small Catechism but not on the other Confessions?


Yes, I was by the way. Is that really so difficult to believe considering where I came from?


Q

[DaSeminarian]

And yet it is a very common practice in the LCMS to commune persons way before they are confirmed, which is not a sacrament in the Lutheran church, so why is this an issue (confirmation/communing) or such a major stumbling block?


Q


Y'know unfortunately that is correct. There are some church pastors who choose to "do their own thing" Just because they do this does not mean it is right.

The other unfortunate thing is that the DPs in the synod are not doing their jobs either because they are not acting as ecclesiastical supervisors when they should be.

I think all DPs should go back to also serving a congregation at the same time as carrying out their duties as DP. Many criticize Benke, but he is at least serving a congregation while Atlantic DP.

[DaSeminarian]

thats not what I said...






So what happens if there is agreement on the Small Catechism but not on the other Confessions?


Yes, I was by the way. Is that really so difficult to believe considering where I came from?


Q

But it is a relevant statement. I was never given a hint that there was anything more than the Small Catechism when I went through Confirmation 31 years ago. What areas of the SC are not compatible with the Confessions? None that I know of at this time.

[ByzantineDixie]

I took 3 months of new member classes but never once saw a small catechism. I was so afraid they were going to ask me to memorize things from it because I heard it talked about from a few in the class (i.e. my husband) who were being reaffirmed.

I do have a question though...where is it written in Lutheran things that confirmation precede Holy Communion? What does the new LSB agenda say about the rite of First Holy Communion and when it should be used?

[ByzantineDixie]

Oh and at my husband's church they commune children before the completion of confirmation...usually after the 1st year of a 3 year program.

[DaRev]

And yet it is a very common practice in the LCMS to commune persons way before they are confirmed, which is not a sacrament in the Lutheran church, so why is this an issue (confirmation/communing) or such a major stumbling block?


Q

I wouldn't say very common. It certainly isn't done in my congregation, nor will it on my watch.

[DaRev]

I do have a question though...where is it written in Lutheran things that confirmation precede Holy Communion? What does the new LSB agenda say about the rite of First Holy Communion and when it should be used?

The Synod's practice concerning the Lord's Supper is "close(d) communion." (Why the 'd' is in parentheses, I have no idea.) This holds to the Biblical mandate that the Sacrament is not only an individual faith issue, but is also a public proclamation of belief in the teachings confessed at that altar. We generally do not commune those who hold a different confession of faith.
If communion is indeed a proclamation of faith and confession, how can one make such a proclamation if they do not even know what the confesion of faith of the Church is? To commune one before they even know what they are confessing to makes no sense whatsoever.

The practice of early communion comes from a "pan-Lutheran" study that was done in the 60's between the LCMS, ALC, and LCA. The study recommended to the synodical convention (I believe it was 1973) to adopt their conclusion that children may be communed prior to confirmation. The LCMS' CTCR rejected the study's recommendation. The convention basically said "We'll leave it up to individual congregations to decide." (A cop out if you ask me.)

The fact is that less than 20% of congregations in the synod offer early communion and that number has not changed in over 20 years. Why the Rite of Early Communion is included in the LSB Agenda, I have no clue. The practice contradicts the synod's practice and teaching of close communion.

[ByzantineDixie]

Hard to sell the argument that it's against the beliefs and practice of the synod when it's done and there is a rite in the book to support it! Although it is clear what you, DaRev, believes and practices.

Do you or does anyone else have an agenda? Does it say why the rite is there and when it should be used?

[DaRev]

Hard to sell the argument that it's against the beliefs and practice of the synod when it's done and there is a rite in the book to support it! Although it is clear what you, DaRev, believes and practices.

Do you or does anyone else have an agenda? Does it say why the rite is there and when it should be used?

Well, it isn't hard to read and know what the synod teaches and practices concerning closed communion.

The Rite is in the agenda because a handful of pastors in the synod asked for it. Like I said, there are fewer than 20% of congregations that do early communion and that number has been steady for many years. And it is up to the individual congregation as to when to use it.

[Confess]

Where do you get your figures?

[DaSeminarian]

Hard to sell the argument that it's against the beliefs and practice of the synod when it's done and there is a rite in the book to support it! Although it is clear what you, DaRev, believes and practices.

Do you or does anyone else have an agenda? Does it say why the rite is there and when it should be used?


I have the Pastoral Companion which is a small pocket version of the agenda and costs about 20 to 30 dollars less. So it says the same thing DaRev's agenda says.

[ByzantineDixie]

I have the Pastoral Companion which is a small pocket version of the agenda and costs about 20 to 30 dollars less. So it says the same thing DaRev's agenda says.

So in your pastoral agenda it says that the rite of first communion:

1) is included because a "handful" of pastors in the synod wanted it.
2) there are fewer than 20% of congregations that do early communion and that number has been steady for many years
3) And it is up to the individual congregation as to when to use it.

I'd buy number 3 but I think there is some hyperbole associated with 1 and 2. In my own personal experience I would say that the number of congregations doing early communion is increasing. But admittedly Georgia is no Lutheran barometer.

[Qoheleth]

Do they have "all things in common" including the Apostle's teachings as per 1 Corinthians 10 and Acts 2 (the Scriptures, can't forget that) in order to make that public proclamation of faith by receiving the Sacrament? I don't think so.

If communion is indeed a proclamation of faith and confession, how can one make such a proclamation if they do not even know what the confesion of faith of the Church is? To commune one before they even know what they are confessing to makes no sense whatsoever.


The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper is both a personal expression of faith and a communal proclamation/confession of faith. It is a public statement of agreement with each other at the rail and with the confession of the Church.


This is gravely important since unprepared reception of the Sacrament has such dire consequences. I just don't understand how people cannot see that from the Scriptures. It is only beneficial for those who are prepared. To commune an infant at birth is ridiculous, let alone spiritually dangerous.




The issue here is indeed grave. This means DaRev, that you and others are in Communion fellowship with many that do not have "all things in common", and who then are flatly ignoring Scriptures which is preached in the pulpit and received at the communion rail.

Or is the teaching of the LCMS regarding the reception of the Body and Blood of Christ (who & when) not a divisive issue or even "spiritually dangerous"?


Q