Do youth groups make or break Lutheran congregations?

[Confess]

My thoughts are that youth groups are not what makes a congregation live or die.

My thoughts are that communities all have their different levels of health. Just as in the Old Testament where Israel was faithful and then unfaithful, the Word of God stayed strong and pure, no gimmicks, no programs, nothing ... and the unfaithful repented and returned.

We find this same thing with the reformation. The Catholic Church became unfaithful and God's Word was presented pure and sound to the world through the means of called men like Martin Luther. Men, women and children came back to the True church. There again were no gimmicks, programs and so on. Just the Word.

Today we find many small towns, big cities and whole states suffering from unfaithfulness. Those churches who desire to remain faithful look at other congregations thrive while their congregations appear to be dying.

These "dying" congregations salivate and examine what is different between the congregations which teach false teaching and their own church.

Is it because of the youth group they ask themselves? "Why yes." says many of the members who pick up their children and transfer to the growing church.

But is that really true?

If a family is really being fed at their home congregation, why would they leave? Why would a starving person leave a fully stocked banquet with few people just to attend a sparsely stocked refrigerator with loads of people?

That doesn't make sense.

If a whole family up and leaves your congregation to join another congregation that teaches falsely, then we know by their actions that either they were never properly fed, or they are in rejection of the Truth.

If a whole family up and leaves your congregation to join a sister congregation where there is communal fellowship just because there are more children there, then other things need to be examined.

Things like the Word and Sacrament being taught. How well are they being taught? Are there any expectations put on the families to teach the Word to the children? Are the children treated like the adults or are many of the teens and preteens forced to sing and participate in these demeaning holiday plays and VBS activities?

You see, my children were getting to hate VBS and holidays NOT because I was forcing them to participate, but other adults were giving them the guilt trip for not participating. So they felt disrespected and their church morale began going down hill.

So far in our new church the preteens and teens are treated like adults, given responsibilities and expected to know what they believe. From preteen on they are apart of the adult Sunday School class. I have seen them volunteer to help dismember things in the church, prepare whole meals for the church, memorize the doctrines of the church, care for the younger children of the church and regularly attend every Sunday.

All this is new to me. I have been in congregations where people were always scratching their heads wonder where the children are. I have seen adults bend over back wards to create events for the children to go to, yet I have never seen the adults treat the older children in the fashion that I see here.

I do believe children desire to become adults. I did. Yet it seems that once we adults have children of our own, we forget this.

[LilLamb219]

I voted no. It's God's Word and Sacrament that make the congregation what it is. It's people sinful side that breaks the congregation.

[DaRev]

This is both a loaded and an unfair question.

You are posing it as whether or not a program makes or breaks a congregation. The question should whether or not the Church has the responsibility to reach out with the Gospel to where the people are.

I take it your congregation has no age appropriate Sunday school? Nothing that presents the truth of God's word in the Gospel in a way that they can easily understand and relate to? Are they just expected to participate in a Bible study that uses terminology and an approach that requires a certain level of understanding to comprehend and apply? I doubt very much that's the case.

It's no different than if there was a segment of the community that does not speak English. It's the same as saying "you need to speak and understand English before you can hear the Gospel." There has to be a ministry that reaches them where they are.

[PreachersWife2004]

Yeah, I think the wording is unfair. It is important that a church strive to have a good youth ministry. Not having a youth ministry won't necessarily break a church, but it can certainly weaken it. I think especially in a church where there are lots of younger people, that needs to be a good focus.

No one here is arguing that the word of God isn't powerful. But there are so many teens and young adults leaving the church because they feel slighted, and they're not getting the word elsewhere...what they're getting is the watered down religion their friends give them.

[Confess]

This is both a loaded and an unfair question.

You are posing it as whether or not a program makes or breaks a congregation. The question should whether or not the Church has the responsibility to reach out with the Gospel to where the people are.

I take it your congregation has no age appropriate Sunday school? Nothing that presents the truth of God's word in the Gospel in a way that they can easily understand and relate to? Are they just expected to participate in a Bible study that uses terminology and an approach that requires a certain level of understanding to comprehend and apply? I doubt very much that's the case.

It's no different than if there was a segment of the community that does not speak English. It's the same as saying "you need to speak and understand English before you can hear the Gospel." There has to be a ministry that reaches them where they are.
There are Sunday School classes for the little ones. We have not put our children in those classes.

I did not intend to put the question unfairly. I was working off of your comment which explained that children were leaving your congregation for another that had better youth programs. You then stated to us that your church was dying while that one was thriving which did nothing but imply that the youth programs were the reason.

And as for reaching the children "where they are at".

The Gospel reaches us all no matter what age we are. Luther had no programs for the children, the parents were taught the Truth and they were expected to give it to their children, there were no programs.

Whole families in the US had to live each day without a pastor for years until a pastor arrived in town. It was the parents responcibility to teach the Word to their children.

Who knows best how a child is to be reach other then their own parents?

This is what the catechism was created for as it states, "the head of the family should teach them in a simple way to his household"

Let the children hear what the parents are being taught, they will grow in understanding, they always do. Just as we taught our children to sing the second hymn of #251 which few church expect their congregations to sing because of its difficulties, our children had a hard time with it (and so did I), but we grew to be able to sing it, learn it and love it.

We need to stop underestimating the children, that is why they feel disrespected with so many of them looking as Sunday School as a "kids thing" and seeing confirmation as graduation from the kiddie stuff.

No self respecting teen or preteen wants to apart of a church that does not gradually give them more and more respect, expecting them to do more, learn more as well as listens to them.

[Confess]

I also wanted to point out another thing. In one congregation we were members at, they used the McDonald's approach. That is to say, they focused on the children to get the adults in.

The gave the children ample activities with their program, always trying to make it more and more fun having the children fellowship together etc. They would then give the children papers to bring home to "show the parents".

We ended up with loads of paperwork in our vehicle floor that was supposed to be shown to us. I hated it!

The paperwork was suppose to encourage the parents to teach the children through-out the week what the child learned during that activity.

I don't know of one parents that followed through. Instead, many like me, told their children to put the papers in the waste basket before entering the vehicle because we were so sick of the mess.

My husband approached the pastor about this one day and the pastor told him that because parents were not teaching their children on their own, they devised this arrangement. My husband said, "I would repect the church far more if you treated me like a man and just handed the paper to me or taught me this at Bible Study or Sunday School or preaching in the pulpit."

Men don't like being told via their children what they are to do as fathers in the faith.

[porterross]

It's an oversimplified poll, IMO. The dynamics of the impact of a youth program are not that simple and as each congregation is different, it's hard to say so absolutely.
The spiritual well-being of our youth should be our main concern. It's an area that is seriously neglected in many congregations for various reasons, but to blow off the importance of it because of tradition is to choose to be blind to its necessity.

[DaRev]

It all has to do with application. There are issues in life that are vastly different for children and teens than for adults. The word has to be presented accordingly so as to be applied accordingly. Thus we have to approach how the church proclaims and administers the word to each accordingly.

[Confess]

The spiritual well-being of our youth should be our main concern. It's an area that is seriously neglected in many congregations for various reasons, but to blow off the importance of it because of tradition is to choose to be blind to its necessity.

Exactly! But are youth groups the answer or are they just petting the children on the head as a ploy to keep them entertained so that they will stay under the guise of teaching them.

[Confess]

It all has to do with application. There are issues in life that are vastly different for children and teens than for adults. The word has to be presented accordingly so as to be applied accordingly. Thus we have to approach how the church proclaims and administers the word to each accordingly.
Yes you are right with your words, but what about actions? Do youth groups focus on the Word or do they focus on fellowship?

[DaRev]

Yes you are right with your words, but what about actions? Do youth groups focus on the Word or do they focus on fellowship?

A proper youth ministry would focus on the word first and foremost. Fellowship is also important. That is, afterall, what the Church is, the fellowship of believers. In order for kids to grow up and be faithful active Christians and faithful active members of the local congregation, both of these aspects must be taught and nurtured.

I have seen first hand the affects that a good, Christ centered youth ministry can have on a congregation. In my vicarage church the youth there are vert active in the youth ministry. This carries over into other aspects of the church. The high school youth in that church teach Sunday school and run one of the most successful VBS programs (measured in faithfulness to the word and in participation) in that community. When they grow up they continue to be active. Our district treasurer, which is a volunteer position, started out as an active member of that congregations youth ministry. He is one of the most active Christians I know. His wife is the same way, and they are now raising their kids the same way. There are many others who have come up through the church the same way.

You will never convince me that a congregation that does not reach their youth through an active youth ministry is going to survive in the long run. But an active youth ministry is MUCH more than simply "youth group".

[Confess]

I am not saying that we should ban children from getting together. I am just talking about this focus that because we don't have a youth group, our church is dying while the other church with a large youth group is thriving is a trap.

The children here get together and fellowship, but they do not get together to learn God's Word.

That is the job of the pastor and parents.

Unfortunetly, like education ... we parents are always passing the buck to someone else to teach our children. In so doing the parents become apathetic and the pastor refuses to tell the parents to wake up and take responcibility as Lutheran historical preached and taught as well as confessed.

[DaRev]

I am not saying that we should ban children from getting together. I am just talking about this focus that because we don't have a youth group, our church is dying while the other church with a large youth group is thriving is a trap.

The congregation that pushes their youth out the door will eventually die. That is a proven fact. The congregation that engages their youth and encourgaes them to become and remain active in the congregation throughout their life thrives. This also is a proven fact. I have seen this with my own eyes.

[synger]

I've seen it work both ways. In my previous church (PCUSA), we had a huge, vibrant youth ministry. We had three pastors, one of whom was designated as the Youth Minister. The youth were highly involved in the church, were taught the Word, and attended services with their families. They brought in their friends "for the fun and fellowship", and many of them stayed and brought in their families, and the Word was preached to them, too.

In other churches I've seen, though, the youth ministry is such a huge focus that it is its own entity. The youth have their own service, or go to part of the main service and then leave to have a separate lesson. The adults inthe program are so involved in providing fun and fellowship for the kids that they don't realize how little grounding in faith and doctrine they are giving them. And when the youth grow up and move out on their own, they look for that same sort of emotional, fellowship-focused church.

And you wonder why the happy-clappy non-denoms are growing? Because there's a whole generation of youth that has been fed milk and only milk, and has no stomach for meat.

It's like the many, many conversations I have with my 6 yo. She knows she should eat "good food", but she'd much prefer sweet junk. I've told her that eventually, she'll actually LIKE veggies and such, but she doesn't quite believe me yet. Still, she gets them put in front of her, whether she eats them or not.

I would not want to attend a church where the children and youth do not attend the service with their families. I would not want to put my daughter in a church program that tried to substitute for church, or make church "palatable" to a child's spiritual palate. There's a difference between making it understandable to her level, and completely leaving out the hard parts.

Sorry for rambling. This is a sore spot with me.

[PreachersWife2004]

I am not saying that we should ban children from getting together. I am just talking about this focus that because we don't have a youth group, our church is dying while the other church with a large youth group is thriving is a trap.

The children here get together and fellowship, but they do not get together to learn God's Word.

That is the job of the pastor and parents.

Unfortunetly, like education ... we parents are always passing the buck to someone else to teach our children. In so doing the parents become apathetic and the pastor refuses to tell the parents to wake up and take responcibility as Lutheran historical preached and taught as well as confessed.

I think if anyone else had posted this I might've been slightly offended. I haven't passed the buck simply because I'd like to see better youth programs in church. We do teach the word at home, and we do take our children to church every Sunday and any child old enough will attend the Christian school. And yes, to be honest, I've told my husband flat out that if I wasn't his wife, Mt Olive would not be our church of choice. Not because I believe we aren't being fed spiritually, because of course we are, but because I am one of those people who want the buffet and not just the main course. The food on the buffet complements that of the main course.

The bible does speak of having a child-like faith...who better to talk to a child about his or her faith than another child? Kids do better when grouped with other kids sometimes and not necessarily into the adult areas.

The gospel reaches everyone, but sometimes I wince when, after a devotion, my son asks "what is fornication?" It's not really a word I think he needs to know right now, but I've got to explain it because it was used in the devotion. That is a persona issue for me, but I'm sure it's also an issue with countless other parents. Having a good Sunday School program, a good youth ministry and good youth outreach helps complement what we teach at home.

[synger]

I hear you, PW. *chuckles* We teach Gem the catechism, and have her read the answers to us. I think "adultery" was a little confusing to her at first. And I had to chuckle the first time she looked at something her friend had that she wanted and said to me mournfully, "Oh, mama... I covet that bike."

But part of my job as a parent is to explain these words and these issues in terms she can understand. Not in gruesome detail of course... she'll get that all too soon, I'm afraid. But enough so she realizes how special marriage is, for only mommies and daddies together. And things like that. I stumble over my explanations sometimes (and other times find that I'm WAY over-explaining), but by and large it's working out well.

[PreachersWife2004]

I hear you, PW. *chuckles* We teach Gem the catechism, and have her read the answers to us. I think "adultery" was a little confusing to her at first. And I had to chuckle the first time she looked at something her friend had that she wanted and said to me mournfully, "Oh, mama... I covet that bike."

But part of my job as a parent is to explain these words and these issues in terms she can understand. Not in gruesome detail of course... she'll get that all too soon, I'm afraid. But enough so she realizes how special marriage is, for only mommies and daddies together. And things like that. I stumble over my explanations sometimes (and other times find that I'm WAY over-explaining), but by and large it's working out well.

True true!!

Nothing will ever beat the day though, that I had to explain what the phrase "you got me sprung with your tongue ring" meant to Jake, who had heard it in a song.

[synger]

Oh, my! *laughs* I haven't had THAT pleasure as yet.

Though we have friends who are multi-pierced and Gem has seen non-ear/face piercings before, the connotations of that phrase are beyond her experience. Thank God.

Give it another six years, and all bets are off. Right now she's still content to listen to children's songs, or my Christian radio station.

[porterross]

Exactly! But are youth groups the answer or are they just petting the children on the head as a ploy to keep them entertained so that they will stay under the guise of teaching them.


That depends on how committed the church is to further developing their young adults following confirmation. There needs to be a balance of energy expenditure and focus on growth in knowledge of the Word. Why does Bible or doctrine study have to be dull? :scratch:

Again, you are assuming we are all advocating pure fellowship activities and that is in no way what I envision when I refer to continued education and development following confirmation. Our youth could and should be taking part in community service projects to burn off all that energy.

These kind of activities benefit everyone who takes part in them on numerous levels. Following that, though, the kids should be shown some appreciation for their hard work by the congregation to validate their place in the church now and in the years to come. They have a great deal to offer a congregation, but they are too often caught in the void between confirmands and young families.

When I speak of youth programs, I have in mind community service, Bible study and all the fellowship that goes along with them. You seem to be putting more limits on their level of contribution than anyone else and that is exactly the attitude that needs to change.

[PreachersWife2004]

Part of what we suggested in our church plan (see other thread) was for the young men of the congregation to assist in the duties of ushering. They handed out bulletins and greeted people, and would direct visitors to the head usher or the pastor if he happened to be up there. From this they not only felt "useful" (a big complaint amongst teens and young adults in churches) but they also got a feel for serving their congregation. It might not have been learning the catechism by rote, but it was still an integral part of the church. Most of the young men that were first involved in that program have stuck around and since some of them have married and have kids of their own, they've brought their families to church as well.

[Luther073082]

Part of what we suggested in our church plan (see other thread) was for the young men of the congregation to assist in the duties of ushering. They handed out bulletins and greeted people, and would direct visitors to the head usher or the pastor if he happened to be up there. From this they not only felt "useful" (a big complaint amongst teens and young adults in churches) but they also got a feel for serving their congregation. It might not have been learning the catechism by rote, but it was still an integral part of the church. Most of the young men that were first involved in that program have stuck around and since some of them have married and have kids of their own, they've brought their families to church as well.

Thats why we have a youth ushering team which I lead. They still like to have one adult to sort of "oversee" it and do the real work of cleaning up after service and counting the people in attendence. But I basically let the youth pass out the bulletons, help with collection, and release people for communion.

[porterross]

Part of what we suggested in our church plan (see other thread) was for the young men of the congregation to assist in the duties of ushering. They handed out bulletins and greeted people, and would direct visitors to the head usher or the pastor if he happened to be up there. From this they not only felt "useful" (a big complaint amongst teens and young adults in churches) but they also got a feel for serving their congregation. It might not have been learning the catechism by rote, but it was still an integral part of the church. Most of the young men that were first involved in that program have stuck around and since some of them have married and have kids of their own, they've brought their families to church as well.

That's a good example of keeping the youth involved and it does make a difference. :thumbsup:

I wonder what the adult members of the congregation think Confirmation means, anyway? Does it indeed make the confirmand's membership independent of the parents'? That's how it was put to me and we were given our own offering envelopes shortly following our first communion even though it was another year and a half before I could work. :D
That was the extent of our inclusion in the membership, though. It was very odd and it felt like we were pretty much free of any obligation other than showing up on Sunday morning for an hour or so. It's as if they didn't know what to do with us any longer and looking back, I can see the missed opportunities for all involved.

[DaSeminarian]

Any issue if taken to an extreme can divide a church. An example of a silly issue that broke up a church was over whether Adam had a bellybutton or not.

Children have been known to split up families because the parents can not agree on proper discipline. Is it any surprise that a congregation could split on an issue of good quality youth programs.

When I was 26 years old I left the Lutheran Church because the one I attended did not have a Young adult singles group. Silly reason to leave a church and because of it I spent the next 15 years in the desert of American Evangelicalism which by the end had me believing that Baptism was not necessary for salvation.

Now is that twisted or what? :doh:

[DaRev]

And that may be the problem here. The OP is under the impression that "youth group" is somehow replacing regular word and sacrament ministry in the Church, which is by no means the case. Youth ministry serves two functions. It keeps the kids in the word at times other than the hour and fifteen minutes service on Sunday morning, while at the same time keeps them active in the life of the congregation. This activity continues well into adulthood, as I have personally witnessed. You take that away, and the congregation's days are numbered.

[Confess]

That depends on how committed the church is to further developing their young adults following confirmation. There needs to be a balance of energy expenditure and focus on growth in knowledge of the Word. Why does Bible or doctrine study have to be dull? :scratch:

Again, you are assuming we are all advocating pure fellowship activities and that is in no way what I envision when I refer to continued education and development following confirmation. Our youth could and should be taking part in community service projects to burn off all that energy.

These kind of activities benefit everyone who takes part in them on numerous levels. Following that, though, the kids should be shown some appreciation for their hard work by the congregation to validate their place in the church now and in the years to come. They have a great deal to offer a congregation, but they are too often caught in the void between confirmands and young families.

When I speak of youth programs, I have in mind community service, Bible study and all the fellowship that goes along with them. You seem to be putting more limits on their level of contribution than anyone else and that is exactly the attitude that needs to change.
Your great Porterross! Really, I like where you are taking this.

My thoughts are this: It appears that you are all pointing to the youth groups for Christ centered teachings and fellowship.

But why is it for teaching? Our faith teaches that the teachings are to come from the parents and the pastor.

I am not against fellowship for them, but I don't see where the stress of youth groups to learn the faith is where the emphasis of catechesis should be.

And you asked why should learning doctrine be dull.

I wasn't aware that it was dull. My 15 year old has never told us that adult bible study and adult sunday school was dull. Neither has any of my other children. Actually, I haven't met a child that thought Divine Service or any form of Bible study was dull.

I am beginning to see a connection between people leaving dull liturgical worship for the fun contemporary worship, but in this case it is leaving dull adult style catechesis for fun youth group settings.

I lastly would like to say one more thing. I am not trying to be offensive or rude. If I appear that way, I apologize. I am just trying to challenge this thinking about youth groups and their importance in congregations to where congregations are blaming the lack of youth or youth groups for their decline.

[DaRev]

I am just trying to challenge this thinking about youth groups and their importance in congregations to where congregations are blaming the lack of youth or youth groups for their decline.

But when there are no youth, and the adults die off, thus the declining congregation.

Like I have always said, youth ministry and youth Bible study helps them to apply God's word to their station in life, which is drastically different than an adults station in life, and keeps them active in the congregation. As I have also said, I have personally witnessed this. I'm not making it up.

[Confess]

And that may be the problem here. The OP is under the impression that "youth group" is somehow replacing regular word and sacrament ministry in the Church, which is by no means the case. Youth ministry serves two functions. It keeps the kids in the word at times other than the hour and fifteen minutes service on Sunday morning, while at the same time keeps them active in the life of the congregation. This activity continues well into adulthood, as I have personally witnessed. You take that away, and the congregation's days are numbered.
No you are wrong on two counts.

First I was not assuming that youth groups replace anything. Rather I was challenging the idea that it is wrong to think that youth groups are to blame for a congregations negative growth.

Second you stated yet againthat youth groups are what keep a congregation from dying.

As a pastor it is your job ALONE to teach the Word, not the laity who deal with the youth. They may volunteer to help in organizing the kids to fellowship, but they are not called or trained to teach as you are unless your congregation has an assistant pastor, deacon or deaconess (or as with the WELS a trained teacher).

Sunday School prepares the little ones in the stories of the Bible because churches have noted that parents were not doing their jobs in teaching these stories to the children which had bad effects on the children entering confirmation class with no clue as to what the contents of the Bible were.

So in effect, SS aides the pastor and prepares the children for confirmation classes. Today's confirmation class teaches out of the Small Catechism which is what the parents were supposed to teach to begin with, but haven't. Confirmation class should be teaching out of the Large Catechism and the BoC instead of the Small Catechism.

The fact that this is not happening EVEN in churches with age appropriate SS classes PLUS youth groups is very telling.

The families that I have witnessed who do regular devotions at home teaching out of the small catechism before the traditional age of confirmation know so much more then the children who have gone to SS and youth groups "religiously".

While church is the place to receive the Word and Sacrament, preaching and teaching etc. I am having a hard time seeing the reasoning that the laity should put children into a large group and replace the parents and pastor in teaching the children the foundations of the faith.

[DaRev]

No you are wrong on two counts.

First I was not assuming that youth groups replace anything. Rather I was challenging the idea that it is wrong to think that youth groups are to blame for a congregations negative growth.

Second you stated yet againthat youth groups are what keep a congregation from dying.

As a pastor it is your job ALONE to teach the Word, not the laity who deal with the youth. They may volunteer to help in organizing the kids to fellowship, but they are not called or trained to teach as you are unless your congregation has an assistant pastor, deacon or deaconess (or as with the WELS a trained teacher).

Sunday School prepares the little ones in the stories of the Bible because churches have noted that parents were not doing their jobs in teaching these stories to the children which had bad effects on the children entering confirmation class with no clue as to what the contents of the Bible were.

So in effect, SS aides the pastor and prepares the children for confirmation classes. Today's confirmation class teaches out of the Small Catechism which is what the parents were supposed to teach to begin with, but haven't. Confirmation class should be teaching out of the Large Catechism and the BoC instead of the Small Catechism.

The fact that this is not happening EVEN in churches with age appropriate SS classes PLUS youth groups is very telling.

The families that I have witnessed who do regular devotions at home teaching out of the small catechism before the traditional age of confirmation know so much more then the children who have gone to SS and youth groups "religiously".

While church is the place to receive the Word and Sacrament, preaching and teaching etc. I am having a hard time seeing the reasoning that the laity should put children into a large group and replace the parents and pastor in teaching the children the foundations of the faith.

Two things...

I never said that I was not involved in our youth ministry. I most certainly am. I encourage youth participation in every aspect of the church, especially those activities that are designed for them. I am personally involved in our activites, functions and conferences/retreats. I coordinate our district's confirmation retreat every spring. To suggest that I am not involved in the youth ministry is flat out false.

Second, not every family is like yours. Not every parent does home devotions. Not every parent teaches and upholds the teachings of the church. I can teach and preach on the importance of these things, but I cannot hold a gun to their heads and make them do it. Do we just let these kids go and not at least try to get them involved in the congregation, simply because their parents have dropped the ball?

You paint a rosy picture of a perfect world that the rest of us know very well does not exist.

[Confess]

But when there are no youth, and the adults die off, thus the declining congregation.

Like I have always said, youth ministry and youth Bible study helps them to apply God's word to their station in life, which is drastically different than an adults station in life, and keeps them active in the congregation. As I have also said, I have personally witnessed this. I'm not making it up.
I don't doubt that you have witnessed congregations die without youth. I am not addressing the lack of youth. I am addressing the thinking that a congregation must have a youth group program in order to survive. That is to say that if the congregation has 2 youths, then they are abliged to create activities and gimmicks to lure more youth into the church rather then focus on the Word and catechizing those 2 youths as best as you (the pastor) can. For we know that out of one man (Abraham) countless people have sprung from him and are faithful, how much more will come from 2 youths who are well catechized in the faith?

Don't worry about that specific congregation's life span, it may live another 100 years or die in 1 year, that is NOT the issue. The issue is in sowing the seeds in an unhealthy community where children are not being produced and where the children who are there are being given over to false doctrine rather than the Truth found in your church.

Communities will vary in their faithfulness, some want their ears tickled more then others. For this reason congregations will thrive and die. It won't be the fault of the faithful, although the faithful will blame themselves. It will be the reality and result of sin within the community.

What I worry about is the faithful who begin looking at other churches that are thriving and yet practicing false doctrines with the faithful congregation deciding that they too must mimick them which later gets the people to thinking that children have to be treated differently or given more treats in order to keep them.

They end up forgetting that parents and pastors are the means which God has given to catechize these children and they end up creating programs to do it for them, having people who are not called to teach being the teachers rather then the parents and pastor.

[DaRev]

What I worry about is the faithful who begin looking at other churches that are thriving and yet practicing false doctrines with the faithful congregation deciding that they too must mimick them which later gets the people to thinking that children have to be treated differently or given more treats in order to keep them.

They end up forgetting that parents and pastors are the means which God has given to catechize these children and they end up creating programs to do it for them, having people who are not called to teach being the teachers rather then the parents and pastor.

Which is precisely why WE need to have a sound, Biblically based, catachetically inclined youth ministry in our own congregations, even if it is for only two youth. It doesn't replace Sunday worship or Sunday School or Confirmation instruction. It enhances it at a level that is important to the kids and keeps them involved in OUR congregations instead of losing them to the "fun" of the world, wherever that may be found.

[Orion567]

I was not brought up in a Lutheran church, but if it was not for the youth group I had growing up in my baptist church I went to, I don't think I would have stayed a christian this far. My youth pastor was very supportive and did preach the cross continually. It would not break any congregation, it would break the youth however. Thus I voted no.

[DaRev]

I was not brought up in a Lutheran church, but if it was not for the youth group I had growing up in my baptist church I went to, I don't think I would have stayed a christian this far. My youth pastor was very supportive and did preach the cross continually. It would not break any congregation, it would break the youth however. Thus I voted no.

The poll is actually not an accurate question. It shouldn't be "youth group" but rather "youth ministry".
BIG difference.