when do unbaptized adults/older children who trust in Jesus receive the Holy Spirit?

[flowermama]

I'm pretty much beginning (I think) to understand baptism in regards to infants. I'm wondering about older children and adults, though. When do Lutherans believe that unbaptized adults and older children who trust in Jesus receive the Holy Spirit? Whey do Lutherans believe such people are saved? Are they saved when they believe? Or do they have to be baptized first? I just don't quite understand. :blush:

I understand that when one is converted they should get baptized -- if I understand correctly the concern is if one "despises baptism." What if something happens to them before they are able to get baptized? Do you believe that they will still go to heaven? I think Lutherans would believe they would go to heaven (right?)?

[DaSeminarian]

I'm pretty much beginning (I think) to understand baptism in regards to infants. I'm wondering about older children and adults, though. When do Lutherans believe that unbaptized adults and older children who trust in Jesus receive the Holy Spirit? Whey do Lutherans believe such people are saved? Are they saved when they believe? Or do they have to be baptized first? I just don't quite understand. :blush:



When they are Baptized they receive the Holy Spirit and his power in their life. However, the Holy Spirit begins to work on them when first they hear the word of God. For he is God and God's word is made manifest through the Holy Spirit.


I understand that when one is converted they should get baptized -- if I understand correctly the concern is if one "despises baptism." What if something happens to them before they are able to get baptized? Do you believe that they will still go to heaven? I think Lutherans would believe they would go to heaven (right?)?

If something were to happen to them prior to them receiving the Holy Spirit in Baptism we would give them up to the Lord to do as he wills as he saves whom he wills. If they have heard the word of God and the Holy Spirit has been working to convict them of sins then it is not up to anyone on earth to determine their salvation, but to the efficacy of God's grace to that individual.

[IowaLutheran]

I'll apologize in advance for asking another question, but I think it relates to the OP in a tangential fashion.

I was recently asked how to interpret this passage from Acts 8 in light of our belief that we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism:

14When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%208#fen-NIV-27182c)] the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.


At first blush, it appears that the Holy Spirit comes during the laying on of hands and not baptism. My explanation was that because the baptism was done only in the name of Jesus (and not the trinitarian formula), it took the later laying on of hands for the Holy Spirit to come upon them.

Am I right? Or is there another explanation?

[DaRev]

I'll apologize in advance for asking another question, but I think it relates to the OP in a tangential fashion.

I was recently asked how to interpret this passage from Acts 8 in light of our belief that we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism:

14When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%208#fen-NIV-27182c)] the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.


At first blush, it appears that the Holy Spirit comes during the laying on of hands and not baptism. My explanation was that because the baptism was done only in the name of Jesus (and not the trinitarian formula), it took the later laying on of hands for the Holy Spirit to come upon them.

Am I right? Or is there another explanation?

One explanation for this is that these people were baptized prior to the Day of Pentecost, before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Thus the gift of the Holy Spirit was not yet available to them in their Baptism. In Acts 2, Peter is proclaiming the arrival of the promised Holy Spirit that is now available to all who are Baptized "in the name of Jesus Christ".

[flowermama]

IowaLutheran, I was taught that Acts shows the birth of the church and there were things done then that are not normative for today. Happy Birthday, btw! I turned 37 in May. Great age to be. :thumbsup:

DaSeminarian, thank you for your reply! That's helpful to know. Can I admit that it worries me, though? You have probably heard this before, so I apologize for saying something that will probably make someone roll their eyes, but that makes Baptism feel like a work that we have to do first before we are saved.

I agree with the idea that we can't judge another's salvation. Would it be correct to say that the Baptism makes their salvation sure? When adults came to believe in Jesus in the Bible, the standard response was to baptise them right away, so that would imply that it was very important that it be done.

The church we left felt that one should show adequate fruit in their life and a true repentance before one became baptised. That was discouraging to my husband and I, and one reason that I think we have found Lutheranism as a whole to be very refreshing.

If my posts come across as ambivalent, it's because I am trying to work through things in my mind. I hope I'm not too confusing!

[Aibrean]

It's is necessary but not absolutely necessary


^that is the general consensus

[flowermama]

It's is necessary but not absolutely necessary


^that is the general consensus
Oh! I remember hearing a pastor say that on Issues, Etc. now! I had forgotten that phrase. Thank you!

[Studeclunker]

You know, someone once told me that the Holy Spirit was like a hound on the scent. Once he touches your heart he persues you like a hound on the scent.

God really, really wants you to be with him. Consider that this omnipitant being deigned to lower himself, to abase himself if you will, by taking our form. He did this to save you. The only way an individual can accept Jesus Christ is if the Holy Spirit has done his job and changed that individual's heart. Have no fear, baptism is nothing more or less than obediance to God's commands. It isn't a work, it doesn't save you. God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ do the saving.

Many churches won't recognize the baptism of another church. They feel only theirs is effective. Lutherans accept (most of the time) any baptism that is performed in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Baptism is an outward sign to the larger community that one accepts the inward gift of salvation. If one refuses to be baptised, it sends a message that the gift has been rejected. Only God can see a person's heart. That's why the earlier post about leaving one to the Grace of God. We're all left to the Grace of God. That's what Baptism and Christanity are all about; the Saving Grace of God.

Amazing Grace!
How sweet the sound.
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found
was blind, but now I see!

The Lord has promised good to me,
His word my hope secures;
He will my shield and portion be,
as long as life endures

Through many dangers, toils, and snares,
I have already come.
His grace has brought me safe so far,
His grace will see me home

Yes when this flesh and heart shall fail,
and mortal life shall cease,
Amazing grace shall then previal
In Heaven's joy and peace!

With this assurance gifted to us through Jesus Christ, we have a promise no other faith possesses. If you have indeed accepted Jesus Christ and die on the way to the church on the day of your baptism (in my opinion) when your eyes close the last time in these shadowlands, they will open to see the Lord. His promise surpasses any of our failings. No Fear!!:clap: :angel:

[Confess]

I'm pretty much beginning (I think) to understand baptism in regards to infants. I'm wondering about older children and adults, though. When do Lutherans believe that unbaptized adults and older children who trust in Jesus receive the Holy Spirit? Whey do Lutherans believe such people are saved? Are they saved when they believe? Or do they have to be baptized first? I just don't quite understand. :blush:

I understand that when one is converted they should get baptized -- if I understand correctly the concern is if one "despises baptism." What if something happens to them before they are able to get baptized? Do you believe that they will still go to heaven? I think Lutherans would believe they would go to heaven (right?)?
We do not have faith apart from the Holy Spirit.

This means that the Holy Spirit can and will work through hearing the Word with Baptism following later just as with the Eunich and so many other people in the Bible.

One cannot be an unbeliever and desire baptism. Faith is not our works, but God's work in us through the means of the Holy Spirit in whatever way the Holy Spirit chooses to work.

[Confess]

IowaLutheran, I was taught that Acts shows the birth of the church and there were things done then that are not normative for today. Happy Birthday, btw! I turned 37 in May. Great age to be. :thumbsup:
me too in may as well.


The church we left felt that one should show adequate fruit in their life and a true repentance before one became baptised. That was discouraging to my husband and I, and one reason that I think we have found Lutheranism as a whole to be very refreshing.

If my posts come across as ambivalent, it's because I am trying to work through things in my mind. I hope I'm not too confusing!

I highlighted the portion I would like to respond to.

Let me ask you this: What is the most important fruit of the Spirit?

Answer: FAITH

People wrongly focus on how they act to prove they are a worthy Christian. This is sooooo wrong!!!! For NONE of us are worthy, not one of us. Our best works are still but filthy rags, we are unable to please God perfectly. We are but sinners! If we could stop being sinners and do good works then what need do we have of this man named Jesus?

No, it is faith that is the fruit of the Spirit. Faith in Jesus who died for our sins so that we may inherit eternal life with Him.

It is this faith that makes us desire to be with Him, be baptized in His name, partake of His body and blood as often as we can, learn His Word and worship Him.

If faith is not good enough for some churches, then one needs to dust the dirt from their feet and seek a faithful church that will wrap their arms around you and thank God for working FAITH in your life.

[JimfromOhio]

Which baptism are we talking about "water" or "spirit"?

[DaRev]

They are one and the same.

Ephesians 4:5, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism."

[JimfromOhio]

They are one and the same.

Ephesians 4:5, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism."

Okay... if infants are baptized, but not convicted until later through the baptism by the Holy Spirit. Which baptism would God follow (not Church)? The works of water baptism or through the conviction of the Holy Spirit's baptism?

[LilLamb219]

There is one baptism...and it includes water.

[Confess]

Okay... if infants are baptized, but not convicted until later through the baptism by the Holy Spirit. Which baptism would God follow (not Church)? The works of water baptism or through the conviction of the Holy Spirit's baptism?
What conviction are you talking about?

There is none. The baby receives faith through the works of the Holy Spirit in Baptism.

This faith is what you may consider a "mustard seed faith". A faith that grows and is nurtured by the parents.

I was baptized at one month old. My parents did not believe and only did it to please my Grandmother. We didn't go to church much, Mom refused to go at all. Yet I always had faith.

[Confess]

Which baptism are we talking about "water" or "spirit"?
They are one.

[LilLamb219]

Jim, faith is given in baptism. We might not always see evidence of that because some people reject, and it's always risky to not have baptism AND teaching go hand in hand as Jesus tells in scripture THAT is how disciples are made.

[DaRev]

Okay... if infants are baptized, but not convicted until later through the baptism by the Holy Spirit. Which baptism would God follow (not Church)? The works of water baptism or through the conviction of the Holy Spirit's baptism?

The gift of the Holy Spirit is given in the one Baptism, with water, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. As the Scripture says, "One faith, one Lord, one Baptism."

[JimfromOhio]

Jim, faith is given in baptism. We might not always see evidence of that because some people reject, and it's always risky to not have baptism AND teaching go hand in hand as Jesus tells in scripture THAT is how disciples are made.

Isn't what the Catholic teach, faith is given in baptism and you are automatically in the "Church"?

Now, let me say what I think you are saying, all who are baptized are believers but ONLY God knows each of their hearts? Baptism is practiced through His grace (the Gospel and the sacraments) are to be received by faith that they may become personally our own. When it comes to "rejection" when Jesus said, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:15), they have rejected their baptism which is their salvation?

While it is my belief that the Holy Spirit convicts a person to be saved even though he/she is baptized in water. Baptism is God's act through the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit gives life as Jesus said in John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

I am not debating but trying to understand the concept of baptism. In the past few years, I have been attending a local Presbyterian church (PCA) which teaches that infant baptism which is known as Covenantal Baptism because they teach that baptism does not save but rather the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

While when I was a Baptist and Anabaptist, the Baptism is called "believers baptism" which means they are baptized after the Holy Spirit convicts them.

When it comes to actual "salvation" which is it?

[Confess]

Catholics teach that ORIGINAL SIN is forgiven in Baptism and that actual sins are the sins which you must continue to work on everyday of your life which may cause you to loose your salvation or remain in Puratory for a reeeeealy long time.

[JimfromOhio]

Catholics teach that ORIGINAL SIN is forgiven in Baptism and that actual sins are the sins which you must continue to work on everyday of your life which may cause you to loose your salvation or remain in Puratory for a reeeeealy long time.

Okay.. Catholic relates the Original sin while Lutheran relates to what?

[Confess]

Jesus said, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:15), they have rejected their baptism which is their salvation?
That was not talking in the context of the infant, but the adult. Adults believe because the Holy Spirit worked faith through the Word and then that person desires baptism. But for those who reject the Word, regardless of having been baptized or not, is condemned.

[JimfromOhio]

It seems like I will never understand the concept of Lutheran's baptism.

[Jim47]

Lutherans teach that we are saved by water and The Word, just as is taught in scripture.

We have Jesus commanment to us in Matthew:
Mt 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mt 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mt 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."


And perhaps the simplest explaination of all
Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Jn 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Jn 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.



And to me there is no more important scripture then the following, I think this sums it all up.

Eph 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

But to tell the truth, salvation is a great mystery to man. It is all God's work and not ours, we are by nature enemies of God, and why He calls any of us to faith is beyond my understanding. God is also not limited in how He saves. He can call someone to faith in any way He chooses, and has, just as He called St Paul, so He can call others.

[LilLamb219]

Jim, how does someone acquire faith?

God's Word (and we can't forget the Holy Spirit).

Is God's Word present in scripture. Yes.

Is God's Word present in Baptism. Yes

Is God's Word present in the Lord's Supper. Yes (although the Lords Supper is not meant for conversion, but does strengthen faith...why? Because it contains God's Word).

Forget about the water in baptism. Focus instead on what God says it does and the promises He attaches to it...by His Word. That will help you understand it better.

Isn't what the Catholic teach, faith is given in baptism and you are automatically in the "Church"?

Now, let me say what I think you are saying, all who are baptized are believers but ONLY God knows each of their hearts? Baptism is practiced through His grace (the Gospel and the sacraments) are to be received by faith that they may become personally our own. When it comes to "rejection" when Jesus said, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:15), they have rejected their baptism which is their salvation?

While it is my belief that the Holy Spirit convicts a person to be saved even though he/she is baptized in water. Baptism is God's act through the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit gives life as Jesus said in John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

I am not debating but trying to understand the concept of baptism. In the past few years, I have been attending a local Presbyterian church (PCA) which teaches that infant baptism which is known as Covenantal Baptism because they teach that baptism does not save but rather the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

While when I was a Baptist and Anabaptist, the Baptism is called "believers baptism" which means they are baptized after the Holy Spirit convicts them.

When it comes to actual "salvation" which is it?