One Says Yeshua, Another Says Jesus. Why?

[Tayyah]

Shalom,

I've just attended a Messianic Church for the first time, and I'm anxious to learn more. One of the questions I'd like to pose right now has to do with the use of words.

For instance, the word "christian" has been replaced with "believer" in Messianic terms. Or, instead of the "cross" the Messianic Jew refers to it as the "tree." The list goes on and on, and though I don't have a argument for or against such replacement, I want to be clear why I adopt terms referring to my faith.

So, I guess the question is this: Is the using of Messianic terms an attempt to bypass or displace terms that are Greek in nature? I accept the usage of the terms, but is the hope to make others aware of the fact that the words they use aren't necessarily referring to the Jewish heritage, but to the Greek?
Does this even make sense? LOL

Blessings,

tayyah

[Aethelsige]

There is a desire to return the faith to that of the Master and the Apostles/Messengers. The desire to recreate the faith the way it meant to be. Note that the word Christian was never used by any of the deciples to describe themselves in the texts. So the reasoning is should we not call ourselves what they called themselves. The devisions that occured namely the idea that Christianity and Judaism are 2 different religions is a historical phenomen not a revealed mandate. No where in Scripture were the deciples commanded to start a second religion. There is One God therefore one religion. God did not start 2 religions. The mechaniations of all that occured in the 1st Century with the advent of the Messiah are all part of the prophetic revelation of the Scriptures. The so called new and old testament are artificial. No where in Scripture did it say to divide the books. There is One book. Since all revelation comes from One God there is one book. God is not schizophrenic. The use of the term Judaism is also a greek term, 'ism' is a greek word ending.

[Higher Truth]

If I remember correctly, the Aramaic Name was Eeshoo [depending upon dialect], Greek was Iesou, and the Hebrew rendering was Yeshua.[yod/shin/vav/ayin] Jesus is a transliteration from Iesou[s]. Billions of people have found salvation in the Name of Jesus. Check the fruit of the people that have a problem with that Name.Most of them are leading people away from the faith through gnostic teachings and esoteric knowledge, and many are former gentile Christians who now think they are Jews. The exttreme sacred name people try to say that Jesus equals zeus, but when asked for substantiated proof , their argument goes away rather quickly.

[lared]

Some say Yeshua, most say Jesus.

Some say Yahweh, most say Jehovah.

No one knows for sure just exactly how these two persons were originally addressed.

[Pray4Isrel]

I call my Messiah Yeshua but I also call Him Jesus.
When I refer to Him as Yeshua, I am not pretending to be Jewish, I just want to call Him by His Hebrew Name, a Name that, IMO, has great power.
When I call Him Jesus, it is usually around my "Gentile" friends...
IMO, there is nothing wrong with either.

[sojeru]

Hi Lared,

Some say Yahweh, most say Jehovah.
listen to your breath and what name does it say?- not even athiests can escape HaShem

[Pray4Isrel]

Hi Lared,
listen to your breath and what name does it say?- not even athiests can escape HaShem
Amen to that! :clap:

[ServingHim]

Well, I use Yeshua mostly because I figure that is what He was called by those around Him. Since I am able to pronounce it, I figure there's no reason to use a variation. However, when speaking to my family or christian friends, I use Jesus. And, when speaking to my husband's family, I use the Spanish pronunciation of Jesus. I don't see anything *wrong* with using 'Jesus', I just prefer to use Yeshua.

Its kind of like with my husband's name. It is Alejandro. Many people find it difficult and will call him Alex. He doesn't mind at all which one is used and will answer to either. But he does feel good when his actual name is used (even if mistakenly mispronounced).

[Pray4Isrel]

That was a very well said, Serving Him, and I am in agreement with you. :)

[Higher Truth]

P4I said:

"When I call Him Jesus, it is usually around my "Gentile" friends...
IMO, there is nothing wrong with either."

I agree P4. Paul stated it best:

1 Corinthians 9

19 For being free of all, I enslaved myself to all, that I might gain the more.
20 And I became as a Jew to the Jews, that I might gain Jews; to those under Law as under Law, that I might gain those under Law;
21 to those without Law as without Law (not being without Law of God, but under the law of Christ), that I might gain those without Law.
22 I became to the weak as weak, that I might gain the weak. To all I have become all things, that in any and every way I might save some.
23 And I do this for the gospel, that I might become a fellow partaker of it.


For those interested in reading about the error of the Jesus/zeus "theory":

http://www.sacrednamemovement.com/JesusZeus.htm

[lared]

Yes, when I am preaching to others in Spanish, I will use the Spanish pronunciations for either Jesus or Jehovah. And Mary becomes Maria.

When in English, I use the most common pronunciation.

[SonWorshipper]

The most common reasoning is because many Jews were killed in the name of Jesus. He is a foreigner to them as well as those who followed him and were named for him meant death to those that were actually his kin. Jesus and Christianity are a different religion to Jews, and to bring him back to who he was and is then you need to call him by what his mother and brothers and disciples called him. He is a son of Israel, always was and always will be, and He needs to be uplifted as such so that G-ds chosen will be able to see Him for who He really is, their Messiah!

Praise Him! :clap:

[SonWorshipper]

ALSO since names like Christ and Jesus were used in a very distainful way AT Jews, these names today still create a tinge of hurt when they hear it or see it. That is another reason, as well this was his name on earth.

Many understand who their Messiah is and would not make any derogatory remarks using that name, but I have seen that many have no problem using Jesus Christ as a curse word.

I prefer not to use it at all, even when talking with non Messianics, they have a right to learn his true name as well! And again because it is not used as a curse word Yeshua Moshiach lifts Him up instead of tearing him down which is what the enemy wants. :(

[Gooney1]

But can you say Yeshua and Jesus and mean the same person doing the same acts dying on the same tree or cross for your life yes you can! So don't say one is the true name or not because How many names does God have in any country it's not the name that countz but what you believe he did for you?

[Oblio]

There is a desire to return the faith to that of the Master and the Apostles/Messengers. The desire to recreate the faith the way it meant to be.


Why recreate a faith that has existed since Christ walked among men and that He promissed satan would never defeat ?


Note that the word Christian was never used by any of the deciples to describe themselves in the texts. So the reasoning is should we not call ourselves what they called themselves


Why does St. Peter, inspired by God, tell us this ?

1 Peter 4:15-16 RSVA But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or a thief, or a wrongdoer, or a mischief-maker; (16) yet if one suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but under that name let him glorify God.

[Gooney1]

Solid point doodio very true!

[koilias]

The Early Jewish Christians, did not call themselves "Christians", that was a name the Greeks called them in Antioch.

The Early Jewish Christians called themselves "Shomrim haDerekh", "The Guardians of the Way", or simply "the Way".

Later they changed the name to "Notzrim", which means "guardians/caretakers", because they saw themselves as the "Caretakers of the Vineyard (Israel)" (Isaiah 27), and they wanted to avoid the insult of being called "Shomronim" (Samaritans--see John 8). As well, they could tie the name to Yeshua's hometown, Natzeret, which has the same Hebrew root as "Notzrim".

To this day, Jews in Israel call Christians "Notzrim". That was their name, because that's the name the Rabbis in the Talmud used to call the Jewish Christians.

[Gooney1]

Yeah but are getting wrapped up the wrong issue. I fully agree that the aim is to make it back to the Early Church Christian life, but surely we are aiming not to get back to their words or name neccessarily but simply what they stood for and did, the way the shared,lived and evangelised together non-stop 24-7!

[Oblio]

I fully agree that the aim is to make it back to the Early Church Christian life, but surely we are aiming not to get back to their words or name neccessarily but simply what they stood for and did, the way the shared,lived and evangelised together non-stop 24-7!


Why not simply join the Church that is the same Church that was there in the beginning ? Peter Gilquist of Campus Crusade fro Christ has gone down this same road with several thousand Evangelicals.

[Gooney1]

Yeah but the point is not being a Jew or having any Jewish background whatsoever I am different I do not speak Hebrew I never have, but I do believe in the same way that you may do that Jesus died for me. The disciples and apostles of early acts told the Gentile Christians not to think that they had to become Jews. I am not being harsh or horrible merely truthful I as a son of God and a Gentile have the right and most propbably the correct right not have to use such terms of the early church!

[Oblio]

The Early Jewish Christians, did not call themselves "Christians", that was a name the Greeks called them in Antioch.



Here is a list (http://pascal.calvin.edu/cgi-bin/htsearch?config=htdig&restrict=%2Ffathers2%2F&words=Christian&method=and) of Early Christian Writings (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/) that reference the term Christian.

[lared]

Which church is that?

And who is Peter Gilquist?

[Oblio]

Peter Gilquist was one of the founders of the Campus Crusade for Christ, an Evangelical campus ministry. When the Baptists were going through thier usual infighting over conservative/liberal issues Peter and some of his fellow members started to research how the early Church worshiped and what they believed. They started with Acts and the NT, and continued on with the writing of the Apostolic Fathers. They then proceeded on the basis of their reasearch to re-create the NT Church, calling themselves the Evangelical Orthodox Church (EOC). Eventually, they discovered that though they had mimiced some of the faith and praxis of the NT Church, there already existed a Church that has carried forth the faith as deposited 2000 years prior. After much prayer, correspondence and work, the EOC was formally recieved into the Antiochian Orthodox Church (Eastern Orthodox Arab Christians).

More details can be found in this book, Becoming Orthodox: A Journey to the Ancient Christian Faith (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0962271330/qid=1065104066/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-6343674-8074440?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

[SonWorshipper]

Messianic Judaism , is a form or sect if you will of Judaism. Present day Judaism is very far from the "original". For those that want to get back to the way it was with the Disciples they can't follow the RCC or the ?EOC because those were whitewashed of the base which it sprung from. All things Jewish were taken out, this was later taught that they were "done away with", but the things that were "Jewish" just happened to be things that the L-rd taught them and gave them and to any that would serve Him alone. They are not of the Jews, but of G-d. Now things that were added on by the Pharasees, and later the Rabbi's yes, these should not be followed, nor do we follow them, unless it is a traditional thing that doesn't go against the word, such as tzitzit.


We walk as Y'shua walked, and Y'shua never sacrificed for he was sinless, and because of his sacrifice we are made clean to, so we dont' need to sacrifice either, but walk in the ways He laid down at Sinai.

[sojeru]

oblio


Why does St. Peter, inspired by God, tell us this ?

1 Peter 4:15-16 RSVA But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or a thief, or a wrongdoer, or a mischief-maker; (16) yet if one suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but under that name let him glorify God.

The word christian only appears two times in the New testament.
Other than that- we are known as believers- and there is a reason for the such.
I think that all of us need to take a relook at the book of "GALUT YAH" (GALATeeA)/galatians.[exiled of YH]

shalom u'brachot

[Oblio]

For those that want to get back to the way it was with the Disciples they can't follow the RCC or the ?EOC because those were whitewashed of the base which it sprung from.


How does this square with Christ's promise that His Church will withstand the very gates of Hades ? Where has His Church been for 2000 years if it hasn't been defeated, or did Christ lie to us ?

[Achichem]

How does this square with Christ's promise that His Church will withstand the very gates of Hades ? Where has His Church been for 2000 years if it hasn't been defeated, or did Christ lie to us ?Not to be inoffensive, even though it will sound that way:

At what cost did the Catholic Church not be defeated? How many lives had to be lost?
How many pagan philosophies picked up? Can anyone say winter solstice? set apart the day of the sun not the day y'shua did,and said he was the lord of?

You know there were false teacher from the beginning, who says your early people are right? What cause we use the bible that come up at a council (I do at least),perhaps, it was because there where people promoting what we are help up in till there were called heretics and had to flee.or purhaps, you are still build on the rock.

Many Early apostles lost their lives defending the “love they enemies” approach.Yet, that is not what your church kept, or even repented of?

“You shall know them by their fruits”, is also a stipulation he put on it, is it not?

or

Look at ancient Israel? The line was not broken for many years, it grow it shrank their was varying degrees of elect, if I recall it even got down to one/two people a couple of times.

The church does not have to not be big to “not to be overtaken by death”
the churhc does nto have to stay under one athority, a church is a people!

Also he said not be taken over by “Hades” or “death”,but he also said “the love of many will wax cold”. Is their elect in the Catholic Church? Most likely! But the church as an organization has replaced(sub in) Gods clear instruction, with the traditions of man, plain out.

So stop trying to make us follow any other person then Christ!

Lets try an analogy, to get my real ponit across:
You build a Cathedral on the rock,
We build a small yet founded house (basic building).

Many get lost in your thousand hallways. Many go on tangents off to the farthest depths of the cathedral where they are not even close to the rock anymore. Many get lost! Some gaze up at the picture, other at the statues. But most never see the rock anymore cause its presence it hardly seen, why look at that old rock when there are gold statues and glories paintings everywhere.

In our house, there is nothing but the rock (ok some things and yes some still get distracted). It is simple, yet grand in its pure simplicity.

[koilias]

In our house, there is nothing but the rock (ok some things and yes some still get distracted). It is simple, yet grand in its pure simplicity.
AMEN to that!

We, whether Jew or Gentile, need the go back to the root, the Netzer from the root of Yisai, Yeshua, not to some institution which doesn't advance the Kingdom of God, but only seeks to limit the Kingdom to itself!

That is why I advocate Jewish Christians to rename themselves Notzrim, which was and still is a movement within Judaism...IT NEVER LEFT JUDAISM! You can even read it in the Gentile Church Fathers that the Jewish Christians were called "Notzrim" (Nazoreans)!

Oblio, the list of Church Fathers you list are ALL GENTILES! None of them (except maybe for Origen) even SPOKE Hebrew, so they wouldn't have used the Hebrew term "Notzrim"!!! OF COURSE they would have used the Greek term "Christians"! And besides, because the Jewish Christians refused to give up Jewish Halakha and keep the Jewish calendar, those second century Church fathers that you list all declared the "Nazoreans" heretics. See, it was an early power issue, meant to steal the inheritence from the Jews and bring it solely to the Gentiles!

May haShem reprove your movement if it still intends to steal the blessing again from these elect MJ's!

[Higher Truth]

quote:

I think that all of us need to take a relook at the book of "GALUT YAH" (GALATeeA)/galatians.[exiled of YH]

HT:
If I remember correctly, Galatia was named after a pagan god. Adding one of the Names of God [theophoric element] to the end is probably not such a good idea. Better check that out.

[sojeru]

hey HT, you may be correct, I have no idea.
All i know is when I thought about it- it seemed to much more than coincidence to me.
Galuth(exile) iah- with just a greek pronounciation to it. Galat-iah...but hey.

[Higher Truth]

Sojeru,

I actually checked it out and it appears that the name was referencing the Celts, who had at one time influenced the area. They were known to be pagans. Many Greek cities were also named after various gods.

Note: Galatia is located in Turkey.

[Oblio]

Can anyone say winter solstice? set apart the day of the sun not the day y'shua did,and said he was the lord of?


Sunday was set apart because that was the day Christ rose from the dead, the eighth day. If you read the writings of the early apologist Justin Marytr, he speaks of Sunday being the day of worship of our Risen Lord. He uses this term, and Saturday also because the letter is written to a pagan Emperor who would be familiar with these terms in refence to the days of the week.


Oblio, the list of Church Fathers you list are ALL GENTILES! None of them (except maybe for Origen) even SPOKE Hebrew, so they wouldn't have used the Hebrew term "Notzrim"!!! OF COURSE they would have used the Greek term "Christians"!


So one must speak Hebrew to be a Jew in ancient Palestine ?
Most Jews of that period did not speak Hebrew. In order for them to be able to read Scripture in the Linguica Franca of the day, the Scriptures were translated into Greek by 70 (or 72) Jewish Scholars to produce the LXX or Septuagint.

[Achichem]

Sunday was set apart because that wasthe day Christ rose from the dead, the eighth day, or have you not read Scripture or the writings of the first Christians ?I have read the Scripture, and it says nothing of the sort. What it says is Y'shua called himself lord of the Sabbath, and it says a few times this that it is Gods in the OT. Which tells me the Sabbth Gods, made for man!

Y'shua raised on sunday(which i am only half convinced on) because it repersents a new dawn(new begining). That does not change Gods days or his plan set out by those days!

As for the writings of the first Christians I am just reading them now.

I know why they say, they set the sunday and their so-called christian holidays, but you know what, false teachers never say what they are really doing.

BTW: I have another word for when you follow those before you, not God.
"The traditions of man."

[Oblio]

AMEN to that!

We, whether Jew or Gentile, need the go back to the root, the Netzer from the root of Yisai, Yeshua, not to some institution which doesn't advance the Kingdom of God, but only seeks to limit the Kingdom to itself!




FTR - Orthodox Christianity is open to all, Jew, Gentile, Muslim and pagan and does not seek to limit the Kingdom to anyone.

[Oblio]

I know why they say, they set the sunday and their so-called christian holidays, but you know what, false teachers never say what they are really doing.


Are you saying that the first Christians, taught by the Apostles themselves, were false teachers ?

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

This is a warning
All Non-Messianics that are posting comments here in the Messianic Judaism Forum. You are only allowed according to the rules to post questions to be answered by Messianic Judaism believers. If someone posts a question here in the Messianic Judaism forum it shall be answered by someone that believes and lives in Messianic Judaism.

Also this thread is getting side tracked. Keep on topic of the thread please.

Shalom,

Tag

[sojeru]

Hi Higher truth,

Note: Galatia is located in Turkey.
everything is cool of what you said- but now that you have reminded me of this- all it does is show me that there were assyrians up by that area too.
***israelis were delivered to the north***ASSYRIA
to me, i think there is evidence standing for both right now since we dont have sufficient facts or evidences yet to rule out one or the other.

[Sabian]

Can you show me the FATHER's name in jesus?
YAHSHUA came in his FATHER's name .
why remove it?
There are many threads on this topic here.
If you really want an answer go back and read.

[Oblio]

This is a warning
All Non-Messianics that are posting comments here in the Messianic Judaism Forum. You are only allowed according to the rules to post questions to be answered by Messianic Judaism believers. If someone posts a question here in the Messianic Judaism forum it shall be answered by someone that believes and lives in Messianic Judaism.

Also this thread is getting side tracked. Keep on topic of the thread please.

Shalom,

Tag

I'll repeat my question then:

Are you saying that the first Christians, taught by the Apostles themselves, were false teachers ?

[Achichem]

I'll repeat my question then:

Are you saying that the first Christians, taught by the Apostles themselves, were false teachers ?I do not yet, know enough about them to say.

and No, I would not say that just because they have Sunday set apart, but it is a sign of priorities getting out of order, if it means the Sabbath day is getting over ridden.

But I will tell you this, false teachers and good teachers alike were taught by the apostles.

I hold, all teachers old and new to the same standards, as I would hold a pastor, elder, priest, bishop, pope or the like today.

If you would like to put more out, but feel restricted by either the forum topic or that fact that you have to only ask question feel free to quote something I said here and answer it my thread in the IDD on a similar topic.

Question about Catholic'/Orthodoxy' claim:
http://christianforums.com/t60146

[Oblio]

Fair enough. Thank you for your honest answer.

Do you believe that there is a visible Church that has been in existence since the days of the Apostles that has preserved the Truth given to it by the Apostles and Christ ?

[KelsayDL]

And what "truth" is that pray tell?

The truth of man made institutions, or the Truth of God as revealed in the Tanach?

Messiah did not come to redefine Truth.

[Oblio]

The truth of man made institutions, or the Truth of God as revealed in the Tanach?


Read the question (put to DaTsar BTW) again KDL



the Truth given to it by the Apostles and Christ

[KelsayDL]

And again I ask.

What truth? Lets hear what defines the Truth as you suppose was given.

What Truth did the Apostles deliver in your opinion?

[Oblio]

That's not the question, nor do I presuppose a particular Church. I only want to know if one exists somewhere, that is visible, that preserves (and has preserved) His truth. Do me the courtesty of allowing someone to answer my question (as is appropriate per the rules of non-MJs in this forum) then you can ask your own questions.

[KelsayDL]

Thats not the question?

Whats that have to do with it?

You've already swayed the thread off topic.


Staying on topic is also a rule of this forum.

Your comments starting at post 26 swayed the conversation off topic, and you persist in doing so.

[Achichem]

Do you believe that there is a visible Church that has been in existence since the days of the Apostles that has preserved the Truth given to it by the Apostles and Christ ?No,

The way I see it the line of God has never been that visible (it even got down to one person a few times), but to those who want to find truth, it is will become visible.

Also remember I believe in the second chance for the unbeliever who never committed crimes against the spirit.



Remember I take more to the line: you shall know them by there fruits

Not so much from the line: the gates of Hades will never overcome you, cause the gates of Death did not overcome ancient times either in till the time of J-sus.



So always existed yes, always been visible to all peoples, not so much.

I probably would agree with you more, had my experience exploring the Catholic Church(orthodox church) did not lead to so many dead ends, and weak foundations.



I was very disappointed(did not match up with God) in what I found.

I felt as though the love had waxed cold, the goats had overtaken the sheep.



If there was a small group, not like that and true to faith, which the entire world could see through that groups acts and speak. Then surly I would say that was true and good.



Its probably egotistical not being able to see the lines completely back to Christ, but to tell you we are so busy spreading the gospel and preparing a people, we forgot all about trying to trace back our roots.



We throw tradition out, and that is what passes from generation to generation, I always say a people need to splinter to find the goats from the sheep. I do not think it is a steady line, those who follow God.



So ways I think I does not stick out:

I do not think a true church of God can stay under one authority; too many goats mix themselves in over time.



It could of also been that:

- That was a church but there where called different things by different people

- That they existent inside your church



My standards are made from the bible, if you like to challenge me on biblical ground in any area, I would love to.



Yes, I know it was a Catholic Council which decided what to canonize and what not to, but it is very odd thing, when I look at the bible and then look at the church, I do not see the same teachings.



Also,

That is where the old comes in, if its against the old it is against the new.

God is the alpha and the omega, nothing changes in him.

[koilias]

Sunday was set apart because that was the day Christ rose from the dead, the eighth day. If you read the writings of the early apologist Justin Marytr, he speaks of Sunday being the day of worship of our Risen Lord. He uses this term, and Saturday also because the letter is written to a pagan Emperor who would be familiar with these terms in refence to the days of the week.
.Justin Martyr's writings are suspect because of their striking anti-Semitism. But I do agree the Lord's Day is the Eighth day and is important because of John's Gospel. However, it was never meant to replace Shabbat, and Jewish Christians honored the Shabbat. The writings of the Latin historians (who were not Christians) confirm that the God-fearing Gentiles also observed Shabbat.


So one must speak Hebrew to be a Jew in ancient Palestine ?
Most Jews of that period did not speak Hebrew. In order for them to be able to read Scripture in the Linguica Franca of the day, the Scriptures were translated into Greek by 70 (or 72) Jewish Scholars to produce the LXX or Septuagint.
Yes, most Jews spoke Hebrew until they were dispersed to Aramaic and Greek speaking lands after the Bar Kochbah revolt. Read the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Bar Kochbah letters. They show that Jews in Eretz Israel were tri-lingual and that Hebrew was a LIVING language. The LXX was written in Alexandria for Greek Speaking Jews, not for the Jews in Palestine!!!

Seems to me, your Church has fed you with many Greek fantasies.

[koilias]

FTR - Orthodox Christianity is open to all, Jew, Gentile, Muslim and pagan and does not seek to limit the Kingdom to anyone.
This is a round-about way of saying that you consider yourselves to be the only true Church, de facto, you limit it to yourself.

[Sabian]

http://www.equipministry.com/studies/rome.htm

Try this paper to see what the Roman / Christian Belief is on Sunday is.

This is an great paper.

[Oblio]

Thats not the question?

Whats that have to do with it?


As I asked a question, which is allowed per the rules of this forum, I was hoping to get an answer to what I asked, and not have my question changed by another poster.


You've already swayed the thread off topic.


Staying on topic is also a rule of this forum.

Your comments starting at post 26 swayed the conversation off topic, and you persist in doing so.


I'm sorry, I have perused the rules of your forum, and I could not find where it says that a thread must stay on topic. If there is one, could you please point it out. Or do you consider my question a spam, a flame, or against the rules ?

[Sabian]

Notice Mark 8:31 "And He began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and AFTER three days rise again."

IF Yahshua had been killed on Friday, and then AFTER one day He had risen, the resurrection would have occurred on Saturday evening. IF AFTER TWO DAYS, it would have occurred Sunday evening, and if AFTER THREE DAYS, it would have occurred MONDAY EVENING!

Examine this text carefully. You cannot, by any process of arithmetic, figure any less than a full 72 hours -- three days and three nights -- in a resurrection which occurred three days AFTER the crucifixion! If Yahshua was in the grave only from Friday sunset to Sunday sunrise, then this text too, must be torn out of your Scriptures or else you must reject Yahshua Messiah as your Saviour! If He rose AFTER THREE DAYS, it might have been more than 72 hours, but it could not have been a second less!

Notice now Mark 9:31. "... they shall kill him; and AFTER that he is killed, he shall rise THE THIRD DAY." The duration expressed here must be between 48 and 72 hours. It could not be one second PAST 72 hours, and Yahshua still rise THE THIRD DAY. And it could not be Friday sunset to Sunday sunrise, because that is only 36 hours, carrying us into the middle of the second day, AFTER He was killed.

In Matthew 27:63 Yahshua is quoted as saying, "AFTER THREE DAYS I will rise again." This cannot This cannot possibly be figured as less than 72 full hours.

And in John 2:18-22, "Yahshua answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and IN three days I will raise it up ... but HE spake of the temple of his body." To be raised up IN three days after being destroyed, or crucified and buried, could not be more than 72 hours.

If we are to accept all the testimony of THE SCRIPTURES, we must conclude that Yahshua was exactly three days and three nights -- three full 24-hour days -- 72 hours in the grave or the only supernatural proof He gave must fail.

Now notice carefully this fact: In order to be three days and three nights -- 72 hours -- in the tomb, our Lord had to be resurrected at exactly THE SAME TIME OF DAY that His body was buried in the tomb!

Let us realize that very vital fact.

If we can find the TIME OF DAY of the burial, then we have found the TIME OF DAY of the resurrection! If the burial, for instance, was at sunrise, then in order to be left an even three days and three nights in the tomb, the resurrection likewise had to occur at sunrise, three days later. If the burial were at noon, the resurrection was at noon. If the burial was at sunset, the resurrection was at sunset, three days later.

Yahshua cried on the cross soon after "the ninth hour" or three o'clock in the afternoon. (Matt. 27:46-50; Mark 15:34-37; Luke 23:44-46).

The crucifixion day was called "the preparation," or day before "the sabbath." (Matt. 27:62; Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:14). This day ended at sunset, according to Scriptures reckoning (Lev. 23:32).

Yet Yahshua was buried before this same day ended -- before sunset. (Matt. 27:57; Luke 23:52-54). John adds, "There laid they Yahshua, therefore, because of the Jews' preparation day." According to the laws observed by the Jews all dead bodies must be buried before the beginning of a Sabbath or feast day. Hence Yahshua was buried BEFORE SUNSET on the same day He died. He died shortly after 3 p.m.

Therefore -- notice carefully -- the BURIAL OF MESSIAH'S BODY WAS IN THE LATE AFTERNOON! It was between 3 p.m. and sunset as these Scriptures prove.

And since the RESURRECTION had to occur at the SAME TIME OF DAY, three days later, THE RESURRECTION OF MESSIAH OCCURRED, not at sunrise, but IN THE LATE AFTERNOON, near sunset! Startling as this fact may be, it is the PLAIN SCRIPTURES TRUTH!

If Yahshua rose at any other time of day, He could not have been three days and three nights in His grave. If He rose at any other time of day, He failed to prove, by the only sign He gave that He was the true Messiah, the Son of the living Creator! Either He rose near the END of a day near sunset, or else He is not the Messiah! He staked His claim on that one and only sign!

So a time-honored tradition must be shattered! Let us praise Yahweh for His TRUTH which has been preserved through the dark ages, so that the true light may now shine forth, if our hearts and minds are still willing to receive it! Praise His name! Do you LOVE the TRUTH as it is revealed, or despise it and love the traditions you have heard? "Whosoever despiseth the Word shall be destroyed!" Let us say with David, "How precious also are THY thoughts unto me, O Yahweh!"

Now which DAY OF THE WEEK was the resurrection day? The first investigators, Mary Magdalene and her companions, came to the sepulchre on the first day of the week (Sunday) very early, while it was yet dark, as the sun was beginning to rise, at dawn. (Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1).

Now here are the texts most people have SUPPOSED stated the resurrection was at sunrise Sunday morning. But they do not say that!

When the women arrived, the tomb was already OPEN! At that time Sunday morning while it was yet dark -- YAHSHUA WAS NOT THERE! Notice how the angel says "HE IS NOT HERE, BUT IS RISEN!" See Mark 16:6; Luke 24:3; John 20:2; Matt. 28:5-6.

Yahshua was ALREADY RISEN at sunrise Sunday morning! Of course He was. He rose from the grave IN THE LATE AFTERNOON, near SUNSET!

And since we know the resurrection was just shortly prior to that Sunday morning, and that it occurred in the late afternoon of the day, we now may know THE RESURRECTION OF MESSIAH OCCURRED LATE SATURDAY AFTERNOON.

The Sabbath day ended at sunset. It was late on that day, before the beginning of the first day of the week. It was not, then, a Sunday resurrection at all -- it was a Sabbath resurrection!

Notice that in Matt. 28:6, THE ANGEL OF ELOHIM gives this testimony, which we now present as EVIDENCE! "He is not here: for He is risen, AS HE SAID." And He certainly did not rise AS HE SAID unless He rose at the precise TIME that He had said! So we have the proof of the ANGEL OF ELOHIM, recorded in the sacred WORD OF YAHWEH that Yahshua did fulfill His sign -- He was three days and three nights in the earth -- He did rise Sabbath afternoon, and not Sunday morning!

Another proof that Messiah was in the grave the full length of time He expected to be is found in I Cor. 15:3-4.

"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Messiah died for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES: And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES."

His death and burial were ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES -- NOT CONTRARY TO THEM.

The THIRD DAY following His Wednesday burial was the Sabbath; THREE FULL DAYS spent in the grave ended Saturday afternoon just prior to sunset, not Sunday morning.

It is not difficult now to determine the day on which Yahshua was crucified. Counting back three days from the Sabbath when He rose, we come to Wednesday, the fourth or very middle day of the week.

Yahshua was crucified on WEDNESDAY, the middle day of the week, He died on the cross shortly after 3 p.m. that afternoon, was buried before sunset Wednesday evening. Now COUNT the THREE DAYS and THREE NIGHTS. His body was Wednesday, Thursday and Friday NIGHTS in the grave -- THREE NIGHTS. It also was there through the daylight part of Thursday, Friday and Saturday -- THREE DAYS. He rose Saturday -- the Sabbath -- late afternoon, shortly before sunset, at the same TIME OF DAY that He was buried! And Sunday morning at sunrise He was NOT THERE -- HE WAS ALREADY RISEN!

It is significant that in Daniel's prophecy of the "Seventy weeks" (Dan 9:24-27), Yahshua was to be cut off "in the midst of the week." While this prophecy has the application of a day for a year, so that this 70th week became a literal seven years, Messiah being "cut off" after three and a half years' ministry, as He was, yet it is significant that He was also "cut off" ON THE MIDDLE DAY OF A LITERAL WEEK!

Now to come to an objection some may raise, yet the very point which PROVES this truth! Perhaps you have noticed that the Scriptures say the day AFTER the crucifixion was a SABBATH! Hence, for centuries, people have blindly assumed the crucifixion was on Friday!

Now we have shown by all four Gospels that the crucifixion day - - Wednesday -- was called "the preparation." The preparation day for THE SABBATH. But for WHAT Sabbath?

John's Gospel gives the definite answer: "It was the preparation of the PASSOVER."

"For that Sabbath day was an HIGH DAY." (John 19:14, 31).

Just what is a "HIGH DAY"? Ask any Jew! He will tell you it is one of the annual set apartdays, or feast days. The Israelites observed seven of these every year -- every one called SABBATHS! Annual Sabbaths, falling on certain annual calendar dates, and on different days of the week in different years, just like the Roman holidays now observed. These Sabbaths might fall on Monday, on Thursday, or on Sunday.

If you will notice the following texts, you will see these annual set apartdays were all called Sabbath days: Lev. 23:24; Lev. 16:31; Lev. 23:39; Lev. 23:15; Lev. 23:26-32.

Notice Matthew 26:2: "Ye know that after two days is the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified." And if you will follow through this chapter you will see that Yahshua was crucified ON THE PASSOVER!

And what was THE PASSOVER? It was the ancient day of Israel commemorating their deliverance from Egypt, and picturing to them the crucifixion of Messiah and their deliverance from sin. In the twelfth chapter of Exodus you will find the story of the original Passover. The children of Israel killed the lambs, and struck the blood over the door-posts and on the side-posts of their houses, and wherever the blood had thus been applied the death- angel PASSED OVER that house, sparing it from death. Following the Passover, was a set apart convocation or annual Sabbath.

Observe the dates: "And in the fourteenth day of the first month is THE PASSOVER of Elohim. And in the fifteenth day of this month is the FEAST.." (Num. 28:16-17).

The Passover lamb, killed every year on the 14th of the first month called "Abib," was a type of Messiah, the Lamb of Yahweh that taketh away the sin of the world. Messiah is OUR PASSOVER, sacrificed for us. (I Cor. 5:7).

YAHSHUA WAS SLAIN ON THE VERY SAME DAY THE PASSOVER HAD BEEN SLAIN EVERY YEAR! He was crucified on the 14th of Abib, the first Hebrew month of the year! And this day, the PASSOVER, was the day before, and the preparation for, THE FEAST day, or annual highday Sabbath, which occurred on the 15th of Abib. THIS Sabbath might occur an ANY day of the week. Frequently it occurs, even today, and is observed by the Jews, on THURSDAY. The Jews observed this "high-day Sabbath on Thursday, 1952 and will in 55, 59, and 62.

And the Hebrew calendar shows that in the year Yahshua was crucified, the 14th of Abib, Passover day, the day Yahshua was crucified, was WEDNESDAY. And the annual Sabbath was THURSDAY. This was the Sabbath that drew on as Joseph of Arimathea hastened to bury the body of Yahshua late that Wednesday afternoon. THERE WERE TWO SEPARATE SABBATHS THAT WEEK!

So this statement does not make Cents.
Sunday was set apart because that was the day Christ rose from the dead, the eighth day. If you read the writings of the early apologist Justin Marytr, he speaks of Sunday being the day of worship of our Risen Lord. He uses this term, and Saturday also because the letter is written to a pagan Emperor who would be familiar with these terms in refence to the days of the week.
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[Shamash Of Yeshua]

I'll repeat my question then:

Are you saying that the first Christians, taught by the Apostles themselves, were false teachers ?The warning wasn't because of questions, and also it wasn't just meant for you.

Tag

[Oblio]

Sorry I misunderstood , thanks for the clarification. :)

[Higher Truth]

This is a warning
All Non-Messianics that are posting comments here in the Messianic Judaism Forum. You are only allowed according to the rules to post questions to be answered by Messianic Judaism believers. If someone posts a question here in the Messianic Judaism forum it shall be answered by someone that believes and lives in Messianic Judaism.

Also this thread is getting side tracked. Keep on topic of the thread please.

Shalom,

Tag


I think we all need to submit a letter from the rabbi, and maybe even the bloodtest results. This is getting out of hand.

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

What has been out of hand is people(who don't believe in Messianic Judaism) coming into this forum and posting their comments which don't coincide with Messianic Judaism and that my friend is against the forum rules. If you haven't read them I recommend that you read them now.

New Messianic Judaism Forum Rules (http://www.christianforums.com/t34460)

Shalom,

Tag

[koilias]

I believe in Messianic Judaism. Just don't worship as one.
But I should exit this forum anyway. It gets my goad too much and I fall from "grace".
Forgive me Oblio if I've offended you in any way. I realize I preach when I encounter falsehood, but it's not a personal attack believe me. Just based on principle. But I am sure that we will embrace one another in the hereafter. No hard feelings, I pray!

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Shalom koilias,

Let YHVH get your Goad and replace it with a heart of gold and the wisdom to sway the reader with Truth and Humility :)

Shalom,

Tag