Islam

[MichaelArchangelos]

Yesterday I talked to some of the Muslims at their stand outside the cafeteria. I asked them many questions about Islam. I told them how Allah was a pagan moon god, and then asked them why the crescent moon was everywhere in Islam. They didn't really know. I asked them about the necessity of four witnesses to prove rape - they said that in the modern world it can be proved by DNA. According to them, Muhammad did indeed marry Aisha when she was 9, and consummated the marriage, but they said that it was a common custom at that time and that Jews and Christians did it too. Is this true?

I told them that I had talked to Coptic Christians from Egypt, and they said that being Christian in Egypt is different from in New Zealand - there is the danger of being forcibly converted to Islam. The Muslims denied that, and said that there are 20 million Coptic Christians in Egypt, and they peacefully co-exist with the Muslims. This doesn't sound right.

They also told me "Don't judge Islam from Muslims". What they meant is that not all people who claim to be Muslim are following the true Islam. Just because Muslims do bad things, according to them, doesn't mean that Islam is bad.

Last night, my girlfriend and I went to a seminar about New Zealand converts to Islam. There were two videos of NZ women who had converted to Islam, and two men spoke about their conversions. Then there were questions, and one of the people answering the questions was our friend Melissa, who had introduced me to my girlfriend. That is the main reason we went. I'd been reading the literature I got from the Muslims with the intent of seeing just how wrong the Muslims were.

However, I feel like I'm being pulled to become Muslim. I know that it's the Devil pulling me, and I am trying my hardest to resist. Many of the externals of Islam seem nice to me - the beautiful mosques, the prayer, the chanting of the Qur'an, the adhan (call to prayer), etc. When I was in Malaysia, I was contemplating becoming Muslim, because Malaysia is a Muslim country, and many things there are set up for Islam. There are huge, beautiful mosques, public buildings - stations, malls, etc - have surau (prayer rooms), the adhan is broadcast from the mosques, and also over the radio and on the TV.

Please pray for me that I do not deny Christ, as did Judas, and become Muslim.

[Tsarina]

I'm praying for you!

Islam is deceiving, it appears to be nice but its cold! Okay, so they Muslim guys told you not to judge Islam based on Muslims.. so go ahead and see what Islam is about. Read the Quraan, see for yourself how it calls for beheading of innocent women and children, read for yourself how Christians are horrible people and need to be stoned.. read all this so called "Islamic beauty" for yourself. Then tell me, how this is all attractive!

I converted from Islam. I learned that many many people feel drawn to it, but they truly don't know what it is about. Just know, that the behavior of Muslims reflects their religion and that what each Muslim tells you will be different from the next Muslim person because the Quraan is interpreted by each Muslim individually. They didn't have Holy Fathers like the Orthodox Faith where everything is made clear.

May God bless you and preserve you in the Faith.
Praying for you. :)

[buzuxi02]

Most of the ornate mosques were built by the Orthodox except for the ones in mecca and medina. The third holiest muslim shrine of the dome rock on the temple mount being one example.
This is why many mosques have domes like Orthodox churches. The dome was an architectural invention of the byzantine empire. Mosaics were perfected in the roman empire.

The geometric mosaic designs found in mosques were once again a product of Orthodox artisans. We all know of the meanthros design (aka: byzantine bracelet design or meander basically the greek version of the 'ying and yang')

Jesus Christ is the messiah of the world, prophecied. These prophecies are found in every holy book not just the OT.

The claim "do not judge islam by muslims" goes against The Lord Jesus teaching "you will know them by their fruits"

[DarkNLovely]

Yesterday I talked to some of the Muslims at their stand outside the cafeteria. I asked them many questions about Islam. I told them how Allah was a pagan moon god, and then asked them why the crescent moon was everywhere in Islam. They didn't really know. I asked them about the necessity of four witnesses to prove rape - they said that in the modern world it can be proved by DNA. According to them, Muhammad did indeed marry Aisha when she was 9, and consummated the marriage, but they said that it was a common custom at that time and that Jews and Christians did it too. Is this true?

I told them that I had talked to Coptic Christians from Egypt, and they said that being Christian in Egypt is different from in New Zealand - there is the danger of being forcibly converted to Islam. The Muslims denied that, and said that there are 20 million Coptic Christians in Egypt, and they peacefully co-exist with the Muslims. This doesn't sound right.

They also told me "Don't judge Islam from Muslims". What they meant is that not all people who claim to be Muslim are following the true Islam. Just because Muslims do bad things, according to them, doesn't mean that Islam is bad.

Last night, my girlfriend and I went to a seminar about New Zealand converts to Islam. There were two videos of NZ women who had converted to Islam, and two men spoke about their conversions. Then there were questions, and one of the people answering the questions was our friend Melissa, who had introduced me to my girlfriend. That is the main reason we went. I'd been reading the literature I got from the Muslims with the intent of seeing just how wrong the Muslims were.

However, I feel like I'm being pulled to become Muslim. I know that it's the Devil pulling me, and I am trying my hardest to resist. Many of the externals of Islam seem nice to me - the beautiful mosques, the prayer, the chanting of the Qur'an, the adhan (call to prayer), etc. When I was in Malaysia, I was contemplating becoming Muslim, because Malaysia is a Muslim country, and many things there are set up for Islam. There are huge, beautiful mosques, public buildings - stations, malls, etc - have surau (prayer rooms), the adhan is broadcast from the mosques, and also over the radio and on the TV.

Please pray for me that I do not deny Christ, as did Judas, and become Muslim.
I heard there were only 7 million Copts in Egypt, but I could be wrong. I'll check for ya! You're In my prayers! As far a mosques, EO Churches are much prettier. I love Islamic archetecture myself! Nothing wrong with that. Are you sure that you are drawn to Islam, or are you drawn to their "religion"? You understand? Do you believe it is the truth or do you like the way they do things, go about their daily lives, their culture, etc.? That's very different from wanting to become a Muslim! I'll be honest, I don't know any Muslim's personally anymore, but they tend to be quite duplicitous in terms of their religion! They put on a strong front to win converts but they are not as "holy" as they want you to believe. Just remember that this is the religion that allows child marriages, honor killings, denies Christ as savior, and has a Holy book that was written about 20 years after their prophet died by those who were not his comtemporaries! My point? Stop right now, and quote word for word and in the proper context, the last conversation you had 20 minutes ago! ...............................Right! Muslims are not bad people, but believe me, they put up a good facade to make their religion attractive. They are people just like you and me! No better! I know beyond the shadow of any doubt that Jesus was the fulfilment of the law; not Mohammed! Also remember that Allah and Yaweh are not the same! That being said, I'm a little worried that you went up to them to see how wrong they are or to confront them in that way. Please don't be offended, but that shows that you are insecure in your faith and may be struggling, so it's no wonder this a ppeals to you! Ask your self, if it was Hinduism, Buddism, or Esoteric Christianity, would that have a ppealed to? Or is it truly Islam? Regardless you are in my prayers!

[minasoliman]

If you go to the Louvre in France and take a look at the ancient Coptic section, you find a lot of artifacts that were part of Church architecture before Islam took over. I can tell you with certainty that a lot of their decorations were adopted from ancient Coptic architecture and design.

In addition, while your friend may tell you not to judge Islam over a few Muslims, a reading of the aHadith and the Quran can really see the true Islam as Tsarina paints it for you.

And don't be quick to judge the beauty of a religion by its arts. I agree that they have beautiful art, chanting, poetry, etc. But that doesn't mean I should join Michaelangelo's religion.

If you must question something, take it on the basis of faith, not on beauty. Even Satan can look beautiful.

God bless.

[Orthosdoxa]

Even Satan can look beautiful.

Truest point of the thread.

Be very, very careful. You're not even Orthodox yet (right???) Orthodoxy is like Grandma's attic -you'll never finish learning it, there's always more. Perhaps you should focus on that and not a made up cult that co-opted much of Orthodox praxis but made a man with many wives, who ordered the deaths of many men, a more sacred figure than Jesus Christ.

[repentant]

I think the only post you need to listen to is Tsarinas...

Islam is evil, and the terrorists are practicing true Islam, not the "peace loving" ones..not to mention the "peace loving" ones would chop your head off as well if they had the chance..

Makes you wonder why the "peaceful" Muslims here in the US, and abroad do not condemn the violence..oh here is the reason..26% of AMERICAN MUSLIMS under 30 support suicide bombings...and that is only the ones who were honest...

[EmperorConstantine]

If your left hand causes you to sin, cut it off.

May sound extreme, but the idea is: if something causes you to disbelieve, than avoid it.

Tsarina has the best post so far.

[BuriedtoBloom]

Hello, Michael!

I am new to the forums - in fact I haven't even introduced myself yet - but I'm moved by your initial post to offer some thoughts on the questions currently besetting your faith...

The elemental truth of every religion is found not solely in the examination of its liturgical habits or its stringent attention to devotional detail, but in studying the god who demands our service and love in that religion.

Consider Allah. If we put aside for a moment the mosques that welcome his worshippers and any attractive language in their creeds, and study instead the revealed character of their god, we might come to this definition of Allah: The Almighty, Loveless, Impersonal Hermit of the Non-Existent Universe.

One difficulty that arises with this definition is that it employs the word "hermit" to refer to Allah in his perfect, complete, and unchanging state. That is to say, if the eternal nature of Allah is one of self-existence without reference to any other person - if Allah is in simple essence a "hermit" and by himself the summary definition of God - then the word "hermit" itself is meaningless. Hermitage can only exist when one is separated from the presence of many. For Allah to be "alone" requires also the reality of "not alone", which for him is quite impossible: he, alone, is reality.

Putting that aside for the moment, if Allah was alone before the creation of angels, of men, of subatomic particles; and if he is always and ever alone by virtue of his very essence, then that state of loneliness and self-love is, in fact, the ideal to which we should strive. Shouldn't we desire to imitate our god and master?

I mentioned self-love, and that might be questioned, but what or who else is there to love in that state of self-existent, self-fulfilling completeness? I would call it selfish, but if that is the reality of god than my moral logic must be inadequate and faulty.

One might say that Allah did require an object for his great love, a vessel to receive the outpouring of his eternal benevolence. This would leave us with a puzzling quandary: if god needs his creation in order to express his nature and complete the image of his personal being, then isn't the creation itself equally deified? In its very conception it also conceives and sustains its creator, fulfilling his great need in a moment of frustrated omnipotence. He exercised no freedom of will in his act of creation: sheer, deterministic necessity drove him to it. And yet if his existence as god is disqualified without his creation, how could he even be said to exist apart from it?

Perhaps another scenario. I begin by stating that god is not love; or if he is, self-love is entirely sufficient. Though "love" is a relational expression that cannot be conceived of apart from one person giving and another receiving, I will just say that self-love is "the intention of one person to exist in harmony with himself without the existence of any other person." Suppose further that Allah does perfectly accomplish that goal, and the entirety of perfected being is found in himself, by himself. This leaves creation incidental, unnecessary, and - further still - impossible. If all things proceed from, and are part of, one "self", then all things are really just one thing. From sameness springs sameness, and nothing is the slightest bit distinct. If a man lived his whole life in a large white box with a mirror on one wall, he would only know the human face and form by his own reflection; he would not conceive of anything apart from self.

If we examined the universe beneath a microscope, what truth would be contained in the "DNA" of reality? How would the image of the eternal hermit be expressed in the mirror of creation? Certainly not in love, friendship, charity, and sacrifice, nor in hatred, greed, vice, and treachery; for all of these demonstrate a distinction between harmony and disharmony, between cooperation and contradiction. Before a relationship can exist- whether it is between a proton and electron or between Creator and creature - there must first be a distinction in diversity and a reconciliation in unity. This relationship must find its source in the relationship of God to Himself.

But if our god is Allah and all things flow from the simplicity of his oneness, why do the categories of different and same co-exist? And why do we live and act at all times with a rationale that is justified by the union of diversity? "This, not that; that, taken together with this." You could say that a display case of ice cream flavors is a paradox. And it is.

One ice cream, many flavors. If it doesn't seem paradoxical in the initial consideration, I suppose that is only because God didn't create us to be at odds with His creation. We understand the elements because we are made in His image, and we appreciate the logic of creation- and not just the logic but also the beauty and truth it displays.

Who is God? One Father Almighty, one Son begotten of the Father, one Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father: one in essence, diverse in Persons. This is the True God, everywhere made known by His image in man and His energies in all creation: "18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,..." (Romans 1:18-20, NKJV; italics mine.)

This same God has made us in our very nature to be His children, and we must each be transformed into His likeness. In putting on Christ, "3... His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

We are broken, stained mirrors, but we are not false images. We are made in God's image and called to be transformed into His likeness, and only through Christ, who is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" (John 14:6), can we be brought to the wholeness that our very being cries out for.

Please hold fast to your faith- believe together with all the Body of Christ that our diverse and confused wanderings can find perfect unified fulfillment only in the everlasting love of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Amen.

O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, be merciful to us sinners!

-David

[Dust and Ashes]

I have felt the draw to Islam that you have felt and it is very real. Whenever I feel it, I cross myself and remember that I also feel drawn to commit vile acts with scantily clad women and the desire to savagely kill people who anger me. This helps me stay mindful that it is indeed a spiritual warfare and that I must resist.

You have my prayers. Please remember me in yours.

[MichaelArchangelos]

Well, one of my fathers has a friend who is Sufi, and he is a nice guy before he drinks to much beer. (Isn’t that forbidden in Islam?)

But Gnostics aside, Islam is Evil! Just look what the Hun did to the Holy Byzantine empire. And to the Armenians, And Copts, And Greeks, And Visigoths, And Zoroastrian Persians, And Hindus, And Various people in the Balkans, And now they attack Israel, those blood-thirsty death eaters! Their entire religion is about force converting people and be given 72 young virgin girls to rape for an eternity. EVIL! I am sure Mohammed (may worms eat him forever) was given his evil ideas by a Demon, not an Angel.

Islam is Evil. And it is every Christian’s duty to fight Evil. We must drive the Hun out of the Holy city of Constantinople with weapons in our hands! :mad: Then the emperors of Byzantium will have peace in heaven when they know their city is safe… :liturgy:
I mentioned this to them, and they told me "Don't judge Islam by Muslims". These people, according to them, don't represent all of Islam, and their actions cannot be used as proof that Islam is false. I quoted Ayatollah Khomeini to them about marrying 9 year old girls, and they said "Does he represent all of Islam?" Then they said "If the Pope said something, would you accept it?" Of course I wouldn't. He's not Orthodox.

[Sothron]

Michael,

Can you truly denounce Christ? You would have to forsake Him if you renounce your faith. Are you ready to make that step?

I know you have had problems in your spiritual walk but please do not forsake the truth for a false religion. I will pray for you and hope you resist this temptation and put it behind you. :crosseo:

[Mytheodos]

"Don't judge Islam by Muslims"


Okay, lets judge Islam by the Qur'an.

6. Contradictions in the Qur'an.
The Qur'an states that it is a perfect book preserved on tablets in heaven (Surah 85:21-22). If the Qur'an is a perfect book from Allah, then there shouldn't be any contradictions in it. Of course, the Muslims will deny any contradictions exist in the Qur'an, but they do. Some of the contradictions below could be debated, but some of them are clearly contradictions.
A contradiction occurs when one statement on a subject excludes the possibility of another. The first one here is a good example. In Surah 19:67, it states that man was created out of nothing. In 15:26, man is created from clay. Since clay is something, we have a contradiction since “nothing” excludes the possibility of “clay.” Both cannot be true.
All quotes from the Qur'an, unless otherwise specified, are from Yusuf Ali and can be found at the Qur'an online.

What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
“Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood,” (96:2).
“We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
“The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: “Be.” And he was,” (3:59).
“But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?” (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
“He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).

Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things,” (2:256).
“And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith,” (9:3).
“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful,” (9:5).
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued,” (9:29).

The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
“And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam,” (39:12).
“When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: “O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee.” Allah said: “By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me.” When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: “Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe.” (7:143).
“And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; “Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam,” (2:132).

Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?
Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed,” (4:48). Also 4:116
The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: “Show us Allah in public,” but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority,” (4:153).

Are Allah's decrees changed or not?
“Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers,” (6:34).
“The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?” (2:106).
When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, “Thou art but a forger”: but most of them understand not,” (16:101).

Is wine consumption good or bad?
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper,” (5:90).
(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?” (47:15).
Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed” (83:22-25).
This list was compiled from resources found on the web at Answering Islam, a List of problems in the Quran. and Errors in the Qur'an.

[nutroll]

I am going to say something that might be very hard to hear. I do this with the hope that it brings insight, and helps you sort through what you are going through. In my college years, I spent a lot of time researching fundamentalism for my thesis. The basic premise in my thesis was that fundamentalism has much more to do with one's psychological state and their way of thinking than with actual beliefs. I think most people presume that fundamentalists believe things so strongly that they become rigid or unbending in their beliefs, and yet in my research, I ran across a case of a man who was raised believing in a literal six day creation, and then went to college and became an atheistic evolutionist, only to later change back. What was interesting was that each time, the change was almost instantaneous, and he was entirely certain of the correctness of his position. As I studied more, I learned that as long as a belief system gives certain securities and will fit with an absolutist way of thinking, it is surprisingly easy for a fundamentalist to change all of their beliefs. Now the reason that I am saying all of this is that I have seen you gung ho about Orthodoxy, and then wanting to pursue "True" Orthodoxy, and then within the last few weeks being shaken by what you heard from some Jehovah's Witnesses, to now feeling drawn to Islam. All of these appear authoritative, and all of them are absolutist in their beliefs (or at least can be). But it is my contention that fundamentalism is not really belief. In a sense, it is a substitute for belief. It is latching onto something that seems certain so that we don't have to deal with uncertainty.

I don't know that any of this applies, as I said, I see some things in your posts of late that seem to indicate this might lie at the root of some of your problems. What I would suggest is to really examine yourself. See if you really believe what you say you believe. Do you feel that you really know God, or that you mostly know about God? Because ultimately, the point of being Orthodox is not to know stuff about God, but to encounter God. It is my belief that the best place to encounter God is in the Orthodox Church. One could spend a whole lifetime seeking God in the various religions of the world, and no doubt one could learn some good life lessons, but if you spend all that time and don't experience communion with God, what have you really gained? Again, I hope that this does not describe you at all, and if it does, I hope that you won't take offense, But I don't want to see you always seeking and never really finding what you are looking for.

[Silentchapel]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to nutroll again.

[Shubunkin]

When we were in Spain, the citizens were still grateful to this day for the Crusades, because the Muslim invaders terrorized the citizens for a long time while they settled there. They were always living in fear of them. This is what they told us. We went to the Alhambra, and saw the architecture, and was interested in seeing there were many concubine rooms. Some religion that would be. I agree that as Christians we should not participate in a so-called "holy war" but it seems they were hoping for a "God send" when the Crusaders came through and ran them all out.

[Anhelyna]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to nutroll again.
It is done :)

[xristos.anesti]

Michael stop thinking about it - I will slap you if you don't.

Think about it - Aotearoa is not that far from sunny Queensland for me to have much problems to come over there and execute my threat



Seriously bro,

This is the faith,
this is the way,
this is the commencement,
this is the conclusion,
this is all that matters -

and without this nothing matters.

[Dorothea]

Listen to everyone, Michael. Tsarina especially knows. God bless you and keep you in the True Faith.

[Shubunkin]

I do think the only reason Islam is interesting, especially to males, is for the fact they can believe in God, and yet not have to keep any morals. That is the draw of it.

[Sothron]

What guy wouldn't want not just one wife but four? All for purely good and noble reasons of course. :blush:

[rusmeister]

I would caution people not to oversimplify teachings of Islam. The faith itself is sufficiently simplistic that exaggeration should not be necessary. Yes, Islam does have morals, and for men, too. They don't have standardization of teaching as evidently their approach to the Koran is similar to protestant 'Sola Scriptura'; that is, any imam reading it can interpret text as he sees fit (as far as I understand Islamic practice to date).

A little bit of G.K. Chesterton on monotheism and Islam:

If we take any other doctrine that has been called old-fashioned
we shall find the case the same. It is the same, for
instance, in the deep matter of the Trinity. Unitarians (a sect
never to be mentioned without a special respect for their
distinguished intellectual dignity and high intellectual
honour) are often reformers by the accident that throws so
many small sects into such an attitude. But there is nothing
in the least liberal or akin to reform in the substitution of
pure monotheism for the Trinity. The complex God of the
Athanasian Creed may be an enigma for the intellect; but
He is far less likely to gather the mystery and cruelty of a
Sultan than the lonely god of Omar or Mahomet. The god
who is a mere awful unity is not only a king but an Eastern
king. The heart of humanity, especially of European humanity,
is certainly much more satisfied by the strange hints and
symbols that gather round the Trinitarian idea, the image of
a council at which mercy pleads as well as justice, the conception
of a sort of liberty and variety existing even in the
inmost chamber of the world. For Western religion has always
felt keenly the idea “it is not well for man to be alone.”

The social instinct asserted itself everywhere as when the
Eastern idea of hermits was practically expelled by the Western
idea of monks. So even asceticism became brotherly;
and the Trappists were sociable even when they were silent.
If this love of a living complexity be our test, it is certainly
healthier to have the Trinitarian religion than the Unitarian.
For to us Trinitarians (if I may say it with reverence)—to us
God Himself is a society. It is indeed a fathomless mystery of
theology, and even if I were theologian enough to deal with
it directly, it would not be relevant to do so here. Suffice it to
say here that this triple enigma is as comforting as wine and
open as an English fireside; that this thing that bewilders the
intellect utterly quiets the heart: but out of the desert, from
the dry places and the dreadful suns, come the cruel children
of the lonely God; the real Unitarians who with scimitar
in hand have laid waste the world. For it is not well for God to be alone. Orthodoxy, ch.8

[Tsarina]

Michael,

Can you truly denounce Christ? You would have to forsake Him if you renounce your faith. Are you ready to make that step?

I know you have had problems in your spiritual walk but please do not forsake the truth for a false religion. I will pray for you and hope you resist this temptation and put it behind you.

I agree. Try to resist this temptation and put it behind you.

Many people are praying for you, brother. :crosseo: Do make sure that you spend time in prayer too.

[Zealous Zeth]

I agree that as Christians we should not participate in a so-called "holy war" Why not? You think the Hun will give up Constantinople without a fight?

I do think the only reason Islam is interesting, especially to males, is for the fact they can believe in God, and yet not have to keep any morals. That is the draw of it. I was very interested in Islam for not so long ago, and I believed certain parts where right, such as not worshiping a painting or an idol but God.

Untill I read the Quran...

[TrueHope]

:crosseo:

[Tsarina]

What guy wouldn't want not just one wife but four? All for purely good and noble reasons of course. :blush:

Oh, don't forget those many 'virgin's they are suppose to receive in heaven.

[silouanathonite]

Can someone point out where it says that in the Quran?

[Bushmaster78FS]

However, I feel like I'm being pulled to become Muslim. I know that it's the Devil pulling me, and I am trying my hardest to resist. Many of the externals of Islam seem nice to me - the beautiful mosques, the prayer, the chanting of the Qur'an, the adhan (call to prayer), etc. When I was in Malaysia, I was contemplating becoming Muslim, because Malaysia is a Muslim country, and many things there are set up for Islam. There are huge, beautiful mosques, public buildings - stations, malls, etc - have surau (prayer rooms), the adhan is broadcast from the mosques, and also over the radio and on the TV.

What the heck is this? It is the second post I am seeing like this from these youngsters like in one month and it ticks me off to no extent... Are you aware that you are a baptized Orthodox Christian? Do you not know Islam, nor your faith? You almost sound like you are half way there... Listen to those who have been muslims, and now Christians... You are not going to learn islam from the people in the cafeteria, they will of course give you a pretty rundown...

[Dorothea]

disregard. Made a new post for my question.

[Bushmaster78FS]

Preferably somewhere where I'm allowed to reply, like by PM or in the debate corner.

No no do it here, no one bites...

[DarkNLovely]

When we were in Spain, the citizens were still grateful to this day for the Crusades, because the Muslim invaders terrorized the citizens for a long time while they settled there. They were always living in fear of them. This is what they told us. We went to the Alhambra, and saw the architecture, and was interested in seeing there were many concubine rooms. Some religion that would be. I agree that as Christians we should not participate in a so-called "holy war" but it seems they were hoping for a "God send" when the Crusaders came through and ran them all out.
I HAVE BEEN THERE! I love Spain and the Alahambra! I took Spanish for ages and there are so many poems about how the Muslims lost it and Los Reyes Catholicos! It was a very bloody yet glorius period for Spain!

[Futuwwa]

No no do it here, no one bites...

It's more of a concern about having to break a few forum-specific rules in the process.

[Bushmaster78FS]

It's more of a concern about having to break a few forum-specific rules in the process.


Then don't break 'em.

[Futuwwa]

Well, I cannot answer her posts without breaking them. Orthodox here seem to be able to talk about other religions, but the followers of those other religions aren't allowed to take part, not even replying to posts.

[DarkNLovely]

Well, I cannot answer her posts without breaking them. Orthodox here seem to be able to talk about other religions, but the followers of those other religions aren't allowed to take part, not even replying to posts.
Must disagree with you, my Muslim friend! I made some very potentially offensive remarks, but because they knew that I was not TRYING to offned and was just saying why I feel I can not be part of the EOC, they still were as nice as ever and kept talking to me! So, just be careful. You can still be blunt and straight forward. Just let them know you aren't trying to be rude! K? Bye!

[MoNiCa4316]

However, I feel like I'm being pulled to become Muslim. I know that it's the Devil pulling me, and I am trying my hardest to resist. Many of the externals of Islam seem nice to me - the beautiful mosques, the prayer, the chanting of the Qur'an, the adhan (call to prayer), etc. When I was in Malaysia, I was contemplating becoming Muslim, because Malaysia is a Muslim country, and many things there are set up for Islam. There are huge, beautiful mosques, public buildings - stations, malls, etc - have surau (prayer rooms), the adhan is broadcast from the mosques, and also over the radio and on the TV.

Hi,
don't look at the externals! It doesn't really matter if something looks beautiful, if it isn't the truth. Put God first; there is nothing greater or more beautiful than Him anyway! There is no Christ in Islam, even though it has interesting traditions and elaborate mosques...and what good is having the whole world, if you lose Him?
I'm praying for you, brother. Stay strong in Him :)

God bless.


monica

[SaintPhotios]

I strongly recommend reading St. John Damascene's critique of Islam. It's an excellent refutation. This is a small part... to view more, refer to the Fathers Set.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

[Monica, child of God]

Michael,

nutroll's post was right on. Think about your attitudes toward faith and belief. In so many ways it seems from your posts that you strive for structure and certainty. Fundamentalism in any religion promises that. But in Christianity we know Truth to be a person: Jesus. Truth is not about laying down laws, it is about knowing the One who is the source of All.

I am not going to tell you that Islam is a creation of the devil. I just don't know if that is true. There are Muslims that do terrible things, but there are also Muslims that devote themselves to doing good. Muslims are people made in the image of God and because of that, they are very capable of virtue.

I am also not going to tell you that Islam is devoid of beauty. But the beauty of Islam is derivative. It is a product of the culture and the monotheism (Jewish and Christian) that Mohamed and his followers were exposed to. Humanity is capable of beauty! This is part of the image of God in us. Think of ancient Mayan temples, Egyptian pyramids, Ndebele houses, etc. Every group of humans produces beauty in some form whether art, literature or music. And so of course there will be beauty in Islam.

There is also a portion of truth in Islam. But it is no where near the fullness of Truth. Consider this:

*Under the Old Covenant, God established the sacrificial system. As Christians we believe that pointed to and was fulfilled in Christ. If what Islam says is true, and Christ was merely a man who died a normal death and was not crucifed and resurrected, what was the point of the sacrificial system?

*Further, if Islam is the restoration of the religion of Abraham, Jacob and Moses, why are there no sacrifices? Why is there no Temple worship in Islam? The whole of the OT is concerned with the building of, maintaining and worshiping in the Temple! What gives?

*Why are there so many inconsistences in the OT Law and the Quran? The dietary laws are not even the same, not to mention all of the other laws. I really don't see how anyone can say that it is supposed to be a restoration of the religion of the patriarchs.

*What of all the prophecy of the messiah? Islam claims to recognize Jesus as the messiah but they wittle him down to the status of prophet. However in the OT, the messiah was to be much, much more:

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. --Daniel 7

This is no mere prophet!

*The Islam says that the Injil, the Gospel, is the word of Allah but it was lost or corrupted over time. How is it that Allah could not protect his own revelation?

There are so many things that don't add up when you try to connect Islam with the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Don't close your eyes to them because something seems appealing from the outside.

M.

[MichaelArchangelos]

what each Muslim tells you will be different from the next Muslim person because the Quraan is interpreted by each Muslim individually. They didn't have Holy Fathers like the Orthodox Faith where everything is made clear.
/quote]

Not necessarily. There is "Tafsir" which is commentary on the Qur'an by Islamic scholars. There is also the Hadith, which is the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad.

[quote=Mytheodos;37816850]

Okay, lets judge Islam by the Qur'an.

6. Contradictions in the Qur'an.



The contradictions in the Qur'an have been dealt with on this site: http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/quranerr.htm

[DarkNLovely]

[quote=Tsarina;37798483]what each Muslim tells you will be different from the next Muslim person because the Quraan is interpreted by each Muslim individually. They didn't have Holy Fathers like the Orthodox Faith where everything is made clear.
/quote]

Not necessarily. There is "Tafsir" which is commentary on the Qur'an by Islamic scholars. There is also the Hadith, which is the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad.



The contradictions in the Qur'an have been dealt with on this site: http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/quranerr.htm
So.....you just believe them? They know that most people have no knowledge of Arabic. I would not consider becoming Muslim until I have read that book IN ARABIC through and through!

[DarkNLovely]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xdVnILalpeo&mode=related&search=

[Bushmaster78FS]

Well, I cannot answer her posts without breaking them. Orthodox here seem to be able to talk about other religions, but the followers of those other religions aren't allowed to take part, not even replying to posts.

That sounds like an excuse, all you can do is claim theories against Orthodox Christianity and you will get answers, what you are suggesting is flat out CENSORSHIP, who is doing that?

[MariaRegina]

Michael, are you really thinking of becoming Islamic because of your girlfriend and the pressure from her family?

[Bushmaster78FS]

MichaelArchangelos,

In order to become a muslim, you will have to accept that Quran is God's word and Muhammad is indeed a prophet, a messenger of God. Well, it is time to ask... Could that be? Could that Quran really be the Word of God? And then what about the Bible? Early muslims didn't confront this problem until they arrived Christian lands, well, the lands where there were many Orthodox Christians rather than heretics, and Christians flat out refused Quran, this was appalling to them, and this Bible has been corrupted story comes out of this problem of them not being able to reconciliate the contradictions. Which one is true? The moment I was convinced that Gospel arrived to us unchanged, Islam was done for me. I do not need to listen no pleadings, no arguments from them as Gospel clearly puts in you that Christ died on the Cross and ROSE AGAIN.

[Bushmaster78FS]

Michael, are you really thinking of becoming Islamic because of your girlfriend and the pressure from her family?

For me, that would be the end of that relationship... Have a good day...

[DarkNLovely]

Hold on! You aren't dating a Christian? There is your problem! Maybe I can help you further! Remeber when God told Solomon not to marry all those foreign women because they would turn his heart? Well, they did, BUT, did any of those faiths become anymore true or real than they were BEFORE he married them? NO! And Islam will not be true after a conversion. Plrase read that story!

[DarkNLovely]

What the heck is this? It is the second post I am seeing like this from these youngsters like in one month and it ticks me off to no extent... Are you aware that you are a baptized Orthodox Christian? Do you not know Islam, nor your faith? You almost sound like you are half way there... Listen to those who have been muslims, and now Christians... You are not going to learn islam from the people in the cafeteria, they will of course give you a pretty rundown...
I like how you call us "youngsters" but you're only 30! LOL!! ^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^

[MariaRegina]

Michael,

Again Magazine has an issue devoted to Islam. In that issue, Father Daniel tells about his conversion from Islam to Christianity and how he has personally led many to Christ even at the risk of being killed. There is an article by Terry that is well reading too. His wife was Islamic and converted to Christianity after their marriage.

If you did convert to Islam and then tried to convert back to Christianity, the Iman wouldn't be very forgiving nor would the family of your girlfriend. Many Islamic countries allow the relatives to kill those who convert to Christianity by not punishing those who do commit murder.

Yes, you should not be unevenly yoke. Please try to find a Christian girlfriend to marry.

[DarkNLovely]

Michael,

nutroll's post was right on. Think about your attitudes toward faith and belief. In so many ways it seems from your posts that you strive for structure and certainty. Fundamentalism in any religion promises that. But in Christianity we know Truth to be a person: Jesus. Truth is not about laying down laws, it is about knowing the One who is the source of All.

I am not going to tell you that Islam is a creation of the devil. I just don't know if that is true. There are Muslims that do terrible things, but there are also Muslims that devote themselves to doing good. Muslims are people made in the image of God and because of that, they are very capable of virtue.

I am also not going to tell you that Islam is devoid of beauty. But the beauty of Islam is derivative. It is a product of the culture and the monotheism (Jewish and Christian) that Mohamed and his followers were exposed to. Humanity is capable of beauty! This is part of the image of God in us. Think of ancient Mayan temples, Egyptian pyramids, Ndebele houses, etc. Every group of humans produces beauty in some form whether art, literature or music. And so of course there will be beauty in Islam.

There is also a portion of truth in Islam. But it is no where near the fullness of Truth. Consider this:

*Under the Old Covenant, God established the sacrificial system. As Christians we believe that pointed to and was fulfilled in Christ. If what Islam says is true, and Christ was merely a man who died a normal death and was not crucifed and resurrected, what was the point of the sacrificial system?

*Further, if Islam is the restoration of the religion of Abraham, Jacob and Moses, why are there no sacrifices? Why is there no Temple worship in Islam? The whole of the OT is concerned with the building of, maintaining and worshiping in the Temple! What gives?

*Why are there so many inconsistences in the OT Law and the Quran? The dietary laws are not even the same, not to mention all of the other laws. I really don't see how anyone can say that it is supposed to be a restoration of the religion of the patriarchs.

*What of all the prophecy of the messiah? Islam claims to recognize Jesus as the messiah but they wittle him down to the status of prophet. However in the OT, the messiah was to be much, much more:

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. --Daniel 7

This is no mere prophet!

*The Islam says that the Injil, the Gospel, is the word of Allah but it was lost or corrupted over time. How is it that Allah could not protect his own revelation?

There are so many things that don't add up when you try to connect Islam with the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Don't close your eyes to them because something seems appealing from the outside.

M.
Did ya'll also know that Mohammed told Christian to follow the Bible? To me, that completly debunks any so called corruptions! Plus, one can't deny the scriptures and then use them to "prove" their points!

[DarkNLovely]

Michael, are you really thinking of becoming Islamic because of your girlfriend and the pressure from her family?
You also don't know if you are gonna stay with this girl forever! This is really to everyone in unequally yoked relationships! I just think about ALL the many crushes I have had over the yers....and how short a time they lasted! YOU ARE ONLY 21!! THERE ARE BILLIONS OF WOMEN ON THIS PLANET WHO YOU MAY STRENGTHEN IN CHRIST! Why should you give up your Truth for this one? She may not be the one! My mama had this friend once. She was in love with man, but something didn't seem right. After they got engaged, she prayed and asked God for a sign as to wheather or not she was on the right path. On her way to the chapel to get hitched, she realized as she was driving, that she was going the wrong way on a one way street! She married him, and the last my mama saw of her, she was very unhappy!

[MichaelArchangelos]

My girlfriend's family are Hindu, not Muslim. She decided to convert to Orthodox Christianity and for a long time, she wasn't very serious in her faith. Then she started reading the Philokalia, and her faith is really strong now.

I read some articles on www.answering-christianity.com and I'm really confused now. Was the Trinity always a part of Christianity? The site also has an article about "X-Rated Pornography in the Bible (http://www.answering-christianity.com/x_rated.htm)", mainly referring to the Song of Songs.

[Orthosdoxa]

The site also has an article about "X-Rated Pornography in the Bible (http://www.answering-christianity.com/x_rated.htm)", mainly referring to the Song of Songs.

SoS is a reference to Christ and the Church.

How could those who see Christ as a mere man possibly know their arm from their behind when it comes to the Bible, anyway?

The devil is using your curiousity about other beliefs to try to control you. First JW's, now this. You're not even Orthdox yet. Submit to your priest and what he has to teach you, and stay away from these false cults.

[MariaRegina]

Don't read the articles at that Muslim site.

The Trinity was always a part of Christianity.

Note: I am quoting from memory:

Christ said, "Philip, he who sees Me sees the Father. I and the Father are One."

Then the beginning of St. John's Gospel says, "In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God."

So we see here that there is a God the Father and a God the Son. Two divine persons, yet one Godhead.

Then Christ said, "I will send the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, who will guide you in all truth."

The Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Blessed Trinity.

When Christ was baptized in the Jordan the nature of the Trinity was revealed. The Father's voice was heard and the Holy Spirit appeared in the form of a dove.



I hope this helps.


If you really love your girlfriend, you will support her in her desire to become Orthodox by becoming Orthodox yourself and by remaining firm in the faith.

Do not look at Muslim websites or read their literature. It is a terrible temptation for you. Avoid the temptation. It is a sin.

The Song of Songs is a canticle about God's love for His Holy Bride, the Church. You cannot read that canticle without also realizing that today's words have different connotations than in the times of antiquity. That is why we need the Church to help us interpret Biblical passages.

It only becomes pornographic because of the dirty minds of the Islamic scholars.

[Dust and Ashes]

Read the debate between the Monk George and the Muslim teachers (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/christ-muslim-debate.html). There is a longer version posted somewhere in the OO forum, maybe they can point you to it.

[MichaelArchangelos]

I have heard this before - that the Song of Songs refers to Christ and His Church, but it does seem a bit graphic for that.

There's something else they mentioned that disturbed me, but I have to go now - there's an Islamic Q&A session and a Sheikh is coming for it.

[buzuxi02]

There is only one or two prophecies in the bible which can possibly refer to Islam and both are bad news for muslims. I wont get into it now, but this prophecy is chilling.

[MariaRegina]

There is only one or two prophecies in the bible which can possibly refer to Islam and both are bad news for muslims. I wont get into it now, but this prophecy is chilling.

Please do enlighten us.

[Orthosdoxa]

I have to go now - there's an Islamic Q&A session and a Sheikh is coming for it.

:swoon::swoon::swoon:

Weren't you the fellow who just 4 days ago was ranting how you hoped the Perv-phet Mo was roasting in hell?

Then you were swayed by JW arguments and started to wonder if they were right.

Now this.

What will it be next week? Mormonism? Wicca? Satanism?

My friend, you have been exposed to the Truth. You are willingly throwing your soul into hell by disavowing it and flirting with a satanic fabrication. There's just no other way to say it.

If you do nothing else for me ever, read "The Sword of the Prophet" by Dr. Serge Trifkovich.

[repentant]

Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
-Jesus

[DarkNLovely]

O.K. As far as SoS, it's about ramantic love which can be seen as paralleling Christ, but in all likelyhood, it's very literal! Especially when one consideres who wrote it! And so what if it's in the Bible? Sex ain't wrong! It's beautiful! Why don't you tell them about "The Perfumed Garden" which is a Muslim Kama Sutra written by a Sheikh that starts out with praise to Allah for making women so sexy!! ( I have this book by the way, and it's good, but SoS is WAY better!) It even depicts two prophets having sex! Two UNMARRIED prophets! WHAT'S WRONG WITH SOS! It's erotic, and lovely and celebrates Gods gifts of sex and marriage! Please confront them with this book and ask them why are Muslims allowed to write this but Christians can't without sombody dropping the hypacrite bomb!

[DarkNLovely]

My girlfriend's family are Hindu, not Muslim. She decided to convert to Orthodox Christianity and for a long time, she wasn't very serious in her faith. Then she started reading the Philokalia, and her faith is really strong now.

I read some articles on www.answering-christianity.com and I'm really confused now. Was the Trinity always a part of Christianity? The site also has an article about "X-Rated Pornography in the Bible (http://www.answering-christianity.com/x_rated.htm)", mainly referring to the Song of Songs.
The very first thing on that "porno" link made me laugh! SoS is my absolute fav. Book in the Bible and I din't even have to look to know that they are flat out LYING! Not to say that there is anything wrong with oral sex, but those verse DO NOT refer to oral sex! ROTFLMBO!!!!!! And you know Muslims and others who do not read the Bible are gonna believe it! Please read it! You have to have a very strange and twisted mind to see a navel as a vagina! LOL!!!!

[DarkNLovely]

Or just not know what one looks like! LOL!

[DarkNLovely]

2- Women's breasts are important sexual objects, especially for licking and sucking!

Her sexy breasts are quite "satisfying":

When I read this I was like, " DUH!!!!!"

^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I CAN'T HELP IT! ARE THEY SERIOUS! PLUS LEVITICUS 20:21 SAYS NOTHING ABOUT PARENTS MARRYING THEIR CHILDREN! OH GOSH!! I HAVE TO GO COLLECT MYSELF! LOL!!!!

[DarkNLovely]

http://www.amazon.com/Perfumed-Garden-Cheikh-Nefzaoui-Erotology/dp/0451526597/ref=pd_bbs_sr_5/002-6301712-9949660?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187516294&sr=8-5

Here is the one I have! This book is far more graphic and far less poetic than anything you will find in SoS! It's about men who trick women into sleeping with them, a man that is made into a cuckhold...by his donkey, so there is some beastiality, memebr enlargement, how to do it with a hunchback, and purple vaginas (EWW!) I PROMISE YOU I HAVE NOT ADDED ANYTHING OR EXAGERATED! PLEASE READ IT AND CONFRONT THEM IF THEY QUESTION YOU ABOUT SOS!

That being said, I got mine at a great buy! The dollar store! I'm so frugal! :D

[Bushmaster78FS]

I like how you call us "youngsters" but you're only 30! LOL!! ^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^




Well, I wish I was 21 again, back in flight school those days, that is when I visited Ephesus and seen my patron's saints tomb, though I didn't know Christianity one bit... so I am old...

[Bushmaster78FS]

I read some articles on www.answering-christianity.com (http://www.answering-christianity.com) and I'm really confused now. Was the Trinity always a part of Christianity? The site also has an article about "X-Rated Pornography in the Bible (http://www.answering-christianity.com/x_rated.htm)", mainly referring to the Song of Songs.



When I read this I WAS SO ANGRY, I held myself not to use Lord's name in vain... :mad::mad::mad:

I have been in apologetics towards muslims since 2002, when I strongly embraced my new faith in Christ (not Orthodox at the time) and this OSAMA ABDALLAH's PATHETIC website has always been brought up by the ignorant muslims... That website is so poorly done, usually we Christians made an example out of this guy OSAMA ABDALLAH on forums like CARM, and he would go fix his website... One time, I remember, he praised a saying of Muhammad who allegedy said there are 360 joints in the human body... Oh yes, the great scientist Muhammad supposedly said this, and Osama Abdallah is praising him for his scientific knowledge at that age... He links out to a few websites right, we go click on it, one of them was a hospital's website with some orthopedy clinic with an extension of 360. There are studies that proved this hadith was grossly false and Osama pulled the joke out of his shameful website. Faith Freedom website focuses on his comedy better, for me and others he is a clown! He is either born raised Palestinian immigrated to US or born raised in US of Palestinian descent. Again I remember one time, he had a American Flag on his website, supporting America and American muslims, today he has a link 9/11: biggest lie in history? What a crook...

I mean he is either 15 years old, or he is just retarded! The Dumpster section... What the??? What he does on his website is a service to Christianity, and shame on himself....

Oh he created this joke website of his to compete with, or in the hopes of creating a possible answer to ANSWERING ISLAM website which contains many converts and other faithful who are professional and scholarly in their work... How creative Osama is, he even named his joke, answering christianity... READ THAT WEBSITE not Osama's... He is a loser! :sick:

[DarkNLovely]

I was tyPing a response...but it disapered! HEY WHAT HAPPENED!? Anyway! I'm gonna call his site "Sidespliters" from now on! LOL!

[Bushmaster78FS]

Michael,

Again Magazine has an issue devoted to Islam. In that issue, Father Daniel tells about his conversion from Islam to Christianity and how he has personally led many to Christ even at the risk of being killed.

Is he Fr. Daniel, who is an Indonesian, who attended St. Nicholas Cathedral in Seoul, Korea and became priest later on? Our Orthodox chaplain told me about a father Daniel whose staory is similar to mine, however he went back to his native country to serve... Not sure, but our chaplain said, if Korea had their hand on me, something might happen to me too... I am planning to become a priest after the Army definitely...

[Futuwwa]

That sounds like an excuse, all you can do is claim theories against Orthodox Christianity and you will get answers, what you are suggesting is flat out CENSORSHIP, who is doing that?

Well, that's exactly what happened last time when I tried. There was a thread about Islam going on. I did nothing but reply to a few posts, didn't do any anti-Christian polemics at all, simply explained a few things. Yet, I got smacked with mod action for "breaking forum-specific rules", and threatened with a forum-specific ban the next time I'd do it, so no. If you insistently want to debate me, challenge me somewhere else.

[Bushmaster78FS]

*Under the Old Covenant, God established the sacrificial system. As Christians we believe that pointed to and was fulfilled in Christ. If what Islam says is true, and Christ was merely a man who died a normal death and was not crucifed and resurrected, what was the point of the sacrificial system?

Answering Monica's points from a muslim's point of view...

Those part of the OT must have been corrupted by man, where God never said anything about sacrifice.

*Further, if Islam is the restoration of the religion of Abraham, Jacob and Moses, why are there no sacrifices? Why is there no Temple worship in Islam? The whole of the OT is concerned with the building of, maintaining and worshiping in the Temple! What gives?

Well, OT has been tampered with, read the verse in Jeremiah, where the pen of the scribes lied... That is a proof of corruption in the Bible. Bible is man made...

*Why are there so many inconsistences in the OT Law and the Quran? The dietary laws are not even the same, not to mention all of the other laws. I really don't see how anyone can say that it is supposed to be a restoration of the religion of the patriarchs.

Lying pen of the scribes chaned the OT, it is not preserved as our Quran...

*What of all the prophecy of the messiah? Islam claims to recognize Jesus as the messiah but they wittle him down to the status of prophet.


Isa was a mesenger from Allah just like others, people didn't like him because he preached Allah's word which was revealed to him in his book injeel... Messiah title is no problem, he was annointed to carry Allah's message...

*The Islam says that the Injil, the Gospel, is the word of Allah but it was lost or corrupted over time. How is it that Allah could not protect his own revelation?

Allah chose not to protect the ones before the Quran and promised to preserve Quran...


This is the 80 percent of the answers you will get...

[Bushmaster78FS]

A Complaint to Allah

By Ayesha Ahmed (http://www.faithfreedom.org/Author/AyeshaAhmed.htm)
Allah, you did not practice what you preached. You said, Mo is dearest to me, he is best of creation, he is the top ranked prophet, his mother tongue Arabic will be the language of heaven, he can intercede on judgment day, Iman is not complete unless he is accepted as your rasool. You, and him are mentioned together in quran hundreds of times like you two are equal partners. You and all your angels even sent salam to him. You wrote in the Quran obey me and my apostle, love me and my apostle, follow me and my apostle, listen to me and me my apostle. You left no doubt that he was way higher than all other prophets. He led the prayer of all the prophets in the Meraj night at Jerusalem. Only he could ascend to the 7th heaven to meet you whereas even Jibraeel, the messenger, had to stay back at the 6th heaven. However I personally feel that it was more of lip service than anything else. Actions speak louder than words. You did not deliver what you promised. Let us examine what you really did for my beloved (and your beloved) Mo in comparison to what you did for other prophets.

You gave Noah a life of 950 years, you gave Mo only 63 years. What a shame. Even Ibn Afak, an infidel Jew lived to be 120 and died only when Mo had him assassinated.
You made Adam 60 cunits (30 meters) tall but you made Mo less than six feet. Even many infidel 7 feet tall basket ball players dwarf the greatest prophet
You made Yousuf so handsome that even his boss's wife chased him around . As far as Mo is concerned, he was the one doing the chasing. Many women even shunned him. As a matter of fact every time he came to Juavaria, his gorgeous captured-women-turned-wife for a quickie, she would stand up and start praying namaz to avoid him (she was known to pray for hours until horny Mo had to go next door to another wife to fulfill his desire). Once he proposed to have sex with a noble woman, she refused and prayed for protection from Allah, how insulting for an apostle. Many of his marriages could not be consummated (perhaps because the young girls given in marriage by fathers probably started crying when they saw the naked old man).
You gave Jesus the power to make dead people live, give back parents to orphans and husbands to widows. The only power you gave Mo was to make live people dead, take away parents from children and husbands from wives which any common criminal can do.
You gave Sulaiman power to control Jinns who used to bring him treasures from the bottom of the sea. Mo had to rely on himself and his cronies to acquire wealth by looting and pillaging.
You saved Ibrahim's son Ismail when he was trying to behead him after a bad dream by replacing his son with a ram. You did no such saving when Mo's sons were dying in infancy.
When Younus prayed from inside the stomach of a large fish you listened and saved his life. When Mo prayed from the lap of Ayesha you did not listen, and let him die.
You gave long lives to children of Dawood and Yaqoob. Mo had to bury six of his seven children who died young . The 7th (Fatima) died 2 months after his death before reaching 20.
You yourself came down to earth to meet Moses. Mo was escorted by Jibraeel on the back of a winged horse and travel billions of miles to see you ( I bet he had a very sore behind after the trip). Could you not come down yourself for your best man.
You gave real miracles to all prophets. Ibrahim could convert burning fire into a garden. Moses could convert his staff into a snake, walk through an ocean, give life to a dead cow. Jesus could cure the sick, give eyes to the blind, give life to the dead, make a clay bird fly, talk right after birth. Noah could build an arc to carry millions of animals. Sulaiman could communicate with jinns and animals. All of them had something to show except Mo. When Mo asked for a miracle you gave a run around and said Quran is your miracle. Some miracle, a hodgepodge of silly fables and a collection of misinformation. A book which says Sun sets in muddy spring, stars are missiles to attack jinns, Moon is a lamp, Sun goes around the Earth, mountains are pegs and sky is in seven solid layers. Even kids are laughing at his miracle.
You gave Sulaiman mastery of all the tongues of animal kingdom. Mo could not even read or write his own mother tongue.
You gave many prophets the ability to cure (Ayub could cure himself by prayer). When sick people came to them they gave them health. When sick people came to Mo , he gave them camel urine (no wonder some of them went berserk after drinking fresh camel urine and committed murders). He could not cure even his own sons whom he desired and loved dearly, all three died in infancy.
You sent ababil birds to defeat an army on elephants to protect your own house Kaaba. No ababils showed up when Mo's house in Madina was attacked three times. He almost got killed once.
Sulaiman was helped by superhuman invisible help in his wars. No such help for Mo. Yes he won many wars but It was the lure of booty, captured women and the 72 perpetually virgin houris in heaven for martyrs which made his soldiers fight and win, not your ababil birds or the thousands of angels which were promised but never showed up.
You were sending Jibraeel for every little information, even to show how to wipe asses, why didn't you send him to warn Mo against eating the poisoned meat which pained him so much and eventually took his life?
In view of the above facts, can you still say you were fair to Mo.

[DarkNLovely]

Well, that's exactly what happened last time when I tried. There was a thread about Islam going on. I did nothing but reply to a few posts, didn't do any anti-Christian polemics at all, simply explained a few things. Yet, I got smacked with mod action for "breaking forum-specific rules", and threatened with a forum-specific ban the next time I'd do it, so no. If you insistently want to debate me, challenge me somewhere else.
Would you please reference that post if you can? Like I said, it must have been something you said or the way you said it! I'm not EO, and they have not done this to me! Sometimes you may not realize when you are saying something that could be offensive, ya'know? If you could bump it, I'd like to read it, k?

[Bushmaster78FS]

challenge me somewhere else.

Well, you have nothing to be challenged. Well, since the forums are not CF anymore, maybe they will cut you some slack. I would not want to see CENSORSHIP here.

[MichaelArchangelos]

I went to the Islam forum tonight. There was a sheikh from Wellington there, and he talked about the theme of this year's Islam Awareness Week, which was "Unity in Diversity". He mentioned human rights, and he said that everyone has a right to freedom of belief. He also said that there must be more interfaith dialogue. So this is proof that you shouldn't get your picture of Islam from the mass media. After the question and answer session, I went and talked to him, and one of the things I asked him about was the verses in Surah 9 of the Qur'an calling for the killing of all non-Muslims. The sheikh was a Hafidh, a person who had completely memorized the Qur'an, and he told me that those verses were referring to wartime. He said that it is totally wrong to kill unbelievers outside of wartime, to go to their house and kill them.

The second issue I have a problem with on the Answering Christianity site is the following page: Fathers sticking their fingers into their daughters' vaginas before marriage in the Bible. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/fathers_rape.htm) They use Deuteronomy 22:13-18 as proof for this, and I can't see any alternative explanation.

"If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him"

Obviously this is referring to a cloth that has the blood from the breaking of the hymen on it.

[ma2000]

I went to the Islam forum tonight. There was a sheikh from Wellington there, and he talked about the theme of this year's Islam Awareness Week, which was "Unity in Diversity". He mentioned human rights, and he said that everyone has a right to freedom of belief. He also said that there must be more interfaith dialogue. So this is proof that you shouldn't get your picture of Islam from the mass media. After the question and answer session, I went and talked to him, and one of the things I asked him about was the verses in Surah 9 of the Qur'an calling for the killing of all non-Muslims. The sheikh was a Hafidh, a person who had completely memorized the Qur'an, and he told me that those verses were referring to wartime. He said that it is totally wrong to kill unbelievers outside of wartime, to go to their house and kill them.

The second issue I have a problem with on the Answering Christianity site is the following page: Fathers sticking their fingers into their daughters' vaginas before marriage in the Bible. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/fathers_rape.htm) They use Deuteronomy 22:13-18 as proof for this, and I can't see any alternative explanation.

"If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him"

Obviously this is referring to a cloth that has the blood from the breaking of the hymen on it.
How can you stand that kind of garbage?
I mean, have you read the title of that article?

And how can one know from where did the blood on a cloth come?

I can't believe that you were accusing us a few weeks ago for not following the Old Calendar and now you quote such a blasphemy against the Holy Mother of God.

[DarkNLovely]

I went to the Islam forum tonight. There was a sheikh from Wellington there, and he talked about the theme of this year's Islam Awareness Week, which was "Unity in Diversity". He mentioned human rights, and he said that everyone has a right to freedom of belief. He also said that there must be more interfaith dialogue. So this is proof that you shouldn't get your picture of Islam from the mass media. After the question and answer session, I went and talked to him, and one of the things I asked him about was the verses in Surah 9 of the Qur'an calling for the killing of all non-Muslims. The sheikh was a Hafidh, a person who had completely memorized the Qur'an, and he told me that those verses were referring to wartime. He said that it is totally wrong to kill unbelievers outside of wartime, to go to their house and kill them.

The second issue I have a problem with on the Answering Christianity site is the following page: Fathers sticking their fingers into their daughters' vaginas before marriage in the Bible. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/fathers_rape.htm) They use Deuteronomy 22:13-18 as proof for this, and I can't see any alternative explanation.

"If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him"

Obviously this is referring to a cloth that has the blood from the breaking of the hymen on it.
I honestly do not want to sound belittling, but do you realize what happens when a woman has sex for the first time? She bleeds. If the cloth that the man and the girl consumated on was in the girls possesion, it was taken before the priest. That sticking his fingers in her is a stretch and not true! The idea is that the man is LYING!!! You see? So he sleeps with her, says she is not a virgin, but the girls still has the cloth as her proof! That make sense? Even if that were true, back in those days, a womans honor was about all she had. If it was your daughter and you knew that she was about to be slandered, you might do that yourself! Anyway, it's beside the point as that is not at ALL what is happening in these scriptures!

[DarkNLovely]

But if she was not a virgin, them there is no proof on the sheets and.....she is in big trouble! Besides, where on earth do they get that he stuck his....I'm disgusted!

[Futuwwa]

Would you please reference that post if you can? Like I said, it must have been something you said or the way you said it! I'm not EO, and they have not done this to me! Sometimes you may not realize when you are saying something that could be offensive, ya'know? If you could bump it, I'd like to read it, k?

Well, those posts of mine were deleted on the same when I got corrected, so they're gone forever. The thread was one started by Justin, also just titled "Islam" as far as I remember. After that, I just want no trouble. You might not be EO, but neither is your religion viewed as the Archenemy by an unfortunate lot of people.

[DarkNLovely]

Well, those posts of mine were deleted on the same when I got corrected, so they're gone forever. The thread was one started by Justin, also just titled "Islam" as far as I remember. After that, I just want no trouble. You might not be EO, but neither is your religion viewed as the Archenemy by an unfortunate lot of people.
You might be suprised! Lots of people don't like Sola Scripturistas! Christianity has so much to offer and I love it! Lot's of people think having so many different expressions is bad, but we are all needful of each other! There basics for true salvation, but other things, in my opinion are simply a matter of preferance.

[Bushmaster78FS]

You are starting to tickle me in a bad way, because I don't think you are listening what is being told here, people here do care and they are trying to warn you...

I went to the Islam forum tonight. There was a sheikh from Wellington there, and he talked about the theme of this year's Islam Awareness Week, which was "Unity in Diversity".

Unity... There is no unity in islam... There is uniformity but uniformity is not unity. Christians are the opposite. I wonder, how oxymoron it sounds like Unity in Diversity, especially when islam is the topic...


He mentioned human rights, and he said that everyone has a right to freedom of belief.

**cough cough** Bullshirt... There is no human rights in islamic lands, and there is no freedom of belief, what a hypocractic speech, well he is in NZ soil that is why... Politically correct...


He also said that there must be more interfaith dialogue. So this is proof that you shouldn't get your picture of Islam from the mass media.

Dude, you have obviously never studied islam's history nor you read your own Bible, Christ says "you shall know them by their fruits..." remember the recent Muhammad cartoon disaster all around the globe.

After the question and answer session, I went and talked to him, and one of the things I asked him about was the verses in Surah 9 of the Qur'an calling for the killing of all non-Muslims. The sheikh was a Hafidh, a person who had completely memorized the Qur'an, and he told me that those verses were referring to wartime.

What is riggin wartime for muslims? They are currently engaged? Or NOT? How are you going to know? I picture this ... you convert to islam and start living a happy life wherever, visit your mosque often, study your scripture, blah blah, one day one of your brothers at the mosque asks, brother, we have to go to Iraq to serve Allah and die for him... everything has been arranged... What are you going to say? No... Imagine what would happen to you if you said no... Though I can tell you right now what will happen to you if you said YES! Like I said... Wartime... Define wartime...

He said that it is totally wrong to kill unbelievers outside of wartime, to go to their house and kill them.

You should have asked him about house of islam and house of war... and in between... And what muslims can do and can not do...

[DarkNLovely]

I should also add that it is still a practice to save sheets.

[DarkNLovely]

He mentioned human rights, and he said that everyone has a right to freedom of belief. He also said that there must be more interfaith dialogue. So this is proof that you shouldn't get your picture of Islam from the mass media. After the question and answer session, I went and talked to him, and one of the things I asked him about was the verses in Surah 9 of the Qur'an calling for the killing of all non-Muslims. The sheikh was a Hafidh, a person who had completely memorized the Qur'an, and he told me that those verses were referring to wartime. He said that it is totally wrong to kill unbelievers outside of wartime, to go to their house and kill them.

O.k. But he needs to go tell that to the Muslims opressing the Brothers and Sisters in Darfur and Indonesia!

[DarkNLovely]

Hold On! I jsut realized that article said "BEFORE MARRIAGE"! Uh,...what? Mike, I do not believe that you are this simple! Read that passage! It clearly says in verse 13 "AFTER LAYING WITH HER"! COME ON!!!!!!

[Dust and Ashes]

I joined a Muslim forum a while back to learn more about Islam so I could be a better neighbor to a Muslim family in the community. They were very nice people but it soon became very repressive as I was not allowed to post anything that "called to a religion other than Islam" or post quotes that might paint any other religion in a positive light. Yes, they were very tolerant as long as you were willing to listen to their evangelizing and keep silent about your own faith. I think that must be some small hint of what it's like to be non-Muslim under sharia.

[Futuwwa]

I joined a Muslim forum a while back to learn more about Islam so I could be a better neighbor to a Muslim family in the community. They were very nice people but it soon became very repressive as I was not allowed to post anything that "called to a religion other than Islam" or post quotes that might paint any other religion in a positive light. Yes, they were very tolerant as long as you were willing to listen to their evangelizing and keep silent about your own faith. I think that must be some small hint of what it's like to be non-Muslim under sharia.

Well, isn't that how practically all religious forums work? CF too has (or at least had) a non-proselytization rule in place for other religions.

[DarkNLovely]

They call them Dhimi! Did you know that that is how slavery got to West Africa? Many people do not realize that the East or Sahran Slave trade lasted almost 1000 years and that slavery has only been recently outlawed in 1960's in many Muslim countries! The Muslims came and the Christians came to West Africa. If you did not to convert to Christianity in a Christian conquered part, you would pay higher taxes, if you were in a Muslim conquered part, you would be beheaded for not converting. That is what made it so easy for European slavers to get slaves from West Africa. In their defense though, it was not a slavery based on racial inferiority ( because they were all black!) as was the Atlantic Slave Trade, and was in fact the most loose in history! In West Africa I mean! Arabic/Muslim slavery was and is still very harsh! But it still didn't help! Omagosh! How did I get on this tangent? Oh Well! Tra la la! Hey anybody interested in reading that book?

[Dust and Ashes]

Well, isn't that how practically all religious forums work? CF too has (or at least had) a non-proselytization rule in place for other religions.

Though you may not feel like it, you are given a lot more freedom here in discussing Islam than I was given on that board. I didn't even try to proselytize anyone, I was just trying to be a Christian but the act of letting my faith enter into my dialogue was too much. That is repressive and demonstrates a serious lack of tolerance.

[Orthosdoxa]

I can't believe that you were accusing us a few weeks ago for not following the Old Calendar and now you quote such a blasphemy against the Holy Mother of God.

TRUE.DAT.

[Thekla]

Was the Trinity always a part of Christianity?

The Transfiguration and baptism of Christ both reveal the Trinity.
Christ also says to baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

If you refer back to Genesis, at the creation the Spirit moves over the waters. At the creation of Adam, "Let us create ... in our image" -- you should refer to the first chapter of Genesis.

My memory is faulty -- how thin is the thread over the abyss which must be walked to enter "paradise" in Islam ?

[Bushmaster78FS]

The Transfiguration and baptism of Christ both reveal the Trinity.
Christ also says to baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Exactly...

If you refer back to Genesis, at the creation the Spirit moves over the waters. At the creation of Adam, "Let us create ... in our image" -- you should refer to the first chapter of Genesis.


Muslims like to deal with that using the "royalty" speech excuse, but I just don't see that... It is also talking about "the image"

My memory is faulty -- how thin is the thread over the abyss which must be walked to enter "paradise" in Islam ?

I was taught, thinner than human hair, and the sheep you sacrificed during that holiday they have every year commemorating "Abraham"s near sacrifice of Ishmael, they carry you... That is one belief. Why do you ask this?

[Silentchapel]

Don't forget the Psalms: "The Lord said to my Lord..."

[Thekla]

I was taught, thinner than human hair, and the sheep you sacrificed during that holiday they have every year commemorating "Abraham"s near sacrifice of Ishmael, they carry you... That is one belief. Why do you ask this?

Hey, Bushmaster !

:thumbsup:
Glad to see you posting here still

Thats what I thought -- quite thin ! And, I've heard, quite sharp. I just wondered how adherents thought about that, or how it effects the view of likelihood about entrance into paradise. The description I heard made it sound pretty impossible.

Hope all is well with you !

Thekla

[DarkNLovely]

Hey, Bushmaster !

:thumbsup:
Glad to see you posting here still

Thats what I thought -- quite thin ! And, I've heard, quite sharp. I just wondered how adherents thought about that, or how it effects the view of likelihood about entrance into paradise. The description I heard made it sound pretty impossible.

Hope all is well with you !

Thekla
I don't understand?

[Thekla]

I don't understand?
I heard from an Orthodox Priest who converted from Islam that the path to paradise (in Islam) that is walked after death is "thinner than a human hair and sharper than a hundred blades". It is strung over the abyss.

I just wondered how that effected the view that one could enter paradise.