Universalism Debate

[thelasttrumpet]

Greetings to all my partialist brothers and sisters.

Would any of you fancy a debate on "Christian universalism?" :D

Aaron

[Iosias]

Greetings to all my partialist brothers and sisters.

Would any of you fancy a debate on "Christian universalism?" :D

Aaron


State your case :)

[thelasttrumpet]

I decided to remove the content of these 3 opening posts (except for the one on "eternal punishment") for two reasons: 1) We are already 12 pages into this thread and no one has yet responded to any of my opening statements, and 2) I have since revised some of my arguments in favor of universal salvation (though not drastically), and do not feel the original statements I made accurately represent my present views. I will introduce updated arguments in favor of universal salvation at another time.

[thelasttrumpet]

I decided to remove the content of these 3 opening posts (except for the one on "eternal punishment") for two reasons: 1) We are already 12 pages into this thread and no one has yet responded to any of my opening statements, and 2) I have since revised some of my arguments in favor of universal salvation (though not drastically), and do not feel the original statements I made accurately represent my present views. I will introduce updated arguments in favor of universal salvation at another time.

[thelasttrumpet]

I decided to remove the content of these 3 opening posts (except for the one on "eternal punishment") for two reasons: 1) We are already 12 pages into this thread and no one has yet responded to any of my opening statements, and 2) I have since revised some of my arguments in favor of universal salvation (though not drastically), and do not feel the original statements I made accurately represent my present views. I will introduce updated arguments in favor of universal salvation at another time.

[thelasttrumpet]

What about Divine Punishment?

As a concluding remark, if everyone is indeed destined to be saved by being “made alive in Christ” on the “last day” (which is at the conclusion of Christ’s mediatorial reign from heaven) then this means that every example of punishment in scripture (as well as those verses that speak of God’s wrath) has exclusive reference to this temporal, earthly existence alone and not to the future, immortal life. A careful study of all such instances in scripture will substantiate this. Take Matthew 25:46, for example.

As you may know, the word translated as “eternal” in most Bibles (as in, “eternal punishment” and “eternal life”) is aionion, which is simply the adjective form of aion. It means “pertaining to an aion” (or “age-during”) and in the New Testament, an aion always refers to an indefinite, limited period of time (e.g., Mt. 13:40, 24:3; Heb 9:26; Eph. 3:9; Col 1:26; Rom 16:25-26; 1 Cor. 2:7, 10:11; 2 Tim 1:9; Heb 1:2).

As the adjective form of aion, it can never mean more than the noun. As “beauty” is to “beautiful,” or “length” is to “long,” so aion is to aionion. Similarly, just as "daily" can never mean “yearly” (because its limit is defined by the noun "day" from which it’s derived), so aionion can never carry the meaning of “endlessness,” for no aion is without end. In the New Testament, an aion is simply a long measure of time in this temporal realm - an indefinite, but never endless, duration of time in which generations of humans live and die. The two ages that the NT is primarily concerned with is the old covenant, Mosaic age of the law (which terminated in 70 A.D.) and the new covenant, Messianic age of the gospel (which commenced at this time, and will conclude at some future date when Christ comes to raise the dead).

Therefore, in Matthew 25:46, the life that the righteous (the sheep) received in that day was "age-during"; it was the life pertaining to the age of the Messianic reign that commenced with the destruction of Jerusalem (the “life of the age”). Likewise, the punishment which the unrighteous (the goats) received in that day was age-during; it was the punishment that pertained to the age of the Messianic reign (the “punishment of the age”). Neither the punishment nor the life refers to existence post-mortem, for aionion always pertains to this temporal existence alone.

[Iosias]

So it was universal salvation that you were advocating and not universal atonement. I would point out that seeing Christ died for the elect alone the benefits of his death does not cover the sins of the reprobate and so salvation is hardly universal.

Suggested reading:
Eternal Punishment (http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Eternal_Punishment/epunishment.htm) by A. W. Pink
Evangelical Annihilationism in Review (http://thirdmill.org/newfiles/ji_packer/Packer.Annihilationisminreview.html) by J I Packer
Is Hell Eternal? (http://www.carm.org/uni/eternal_hell.htm)
http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Hell/Universalism/Annihilationism/

[thelasttrumpet]

AV1611,

I'm very familiar with the arguments in the links you provided, as I was a "staunch Calvinist" myself for over 5 years. ;)

Show me where in scripture the distinction between "elect" and "non-elect" is to continue after death. You'll be hard-pressed to do that. :)

The simple fact is, only the elect benefit from Christ's death and resurrection in THIS LIFE, because it is only those who believe on Christ that can enjoy the righteousness, joy and peace in the holy Spirit that comes from the hope of being made alive in Christ (justified) on the "last day." Through his perfect obedience to the Father, Christ satisfied the demands of the law and fulfilled its purpose, so that we can be justified from its condemnation. Then, he laid down his life on behalf of all mankind as our covenant mediator (1 Tim 2:5; 2 Cor 5:14-15, etc.), thereby ratifying the new covenant (Heb 9:15-17), which is not according to LAW but according to PROMISE (Gal 3:15-18; Heb 8). Thus Christ died to ratify the covenant of promise, so that as the "last Adam" he could introduce resurretion life to the human race, just as Adam introduced death to the human race (1 Cor 15:22). It is the elect (those who believe on Christ and receive the holy Spirit) that can enjoy the promise in this life, by faith in Christ. As such, believers are "children of the promise" (Rom 9:8) and "children of the free woman" (Gal 4:31). But the promise of justification is for all people (Rom 5:18), and will be realized on the "last day," at the "last trumpet." Those who believe are "justified by faith" - that is, they alone enjoy their pardon and forgiveness in this life, before it takes place.

Thus, scripture teaches and presupposes TWO salvations:

(1) A future salvation that is both unconditionally promised and all-inclusive (embracing all for whom Christ died and rose again as covenant mediator – that is, everyone; 1 Tim 2:5-6; Heb 2:9, etc.)


(2) A present salvation, in this life (a state of righteousness, joy and peace that comes from the hope of resurrection in Christ), that is conditionally enjoyed only by those who are exercising a living faith in Christ (i.e., believers/the Church), who is the living embodiment of God’s unconditional promise to save all people by raising them from the dead.

That the apostle Paul himself believed and taught this is clear from 1 Tim 4:10-11: “For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. Command and teach these things.” (Regarding the word translated “especially,” see Titus 1:10 and Philemon 16).

"God is the Savior of all people," absolutely (for all who die in Adam are to be made alive in Christ), but "especially of those who believe." How so? Because the latter (believers) anticipate by faith that of which the former (everyone else) remain ignorant. Thus, "salvation by faith" is the blessing (righteousness, joy and peace) enjoyed in this present life by those who believe on Christ, who is our assurance and gurantee of salvation from sin and death through an immortal resurrection, for all. This is whyonly believers can be “justified by faith." But this particular salvation that can only be enjoyed by believers (the Church) pertains only to this present existence, and not to the future life when Christ raises the dead on the "last day," when all people will come to know God, and the joy of salvation.

Again, the salvation and redemption of believers is said to be "aionion" (Heb 5:9; 9:12, etc.), which means it pertains to the age that was, at that time, about to come. It is the age in which we live now (the new covenant age of the Messianic reign), which will come to an end when Christ comes to raise the dead and changes the living, and then deliver up the kingdom to the Father that he may become "all in all" (1 Cor 15:28).


In Christ,
Aaron

[thelasttrumpet]

A.W. Pink says,


It is written "It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27). This is one of the many verses which refute the errors of the Annihilationists, who make the judgment of the sinner to be, itself, death. But here death and judgment are clearly distinguished. The one follows the other.


If this verse from Hebrews refers to literal death (and it is arguable as to whether or not it does) then the only judgment in scripture said to follow it is that which God himself pronounced upon Adam on the day of his transgression:

"By the sweat of your face you shall eat your bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return" (Gen 3:19).

After mankind's fall into sin, God pronounces a series of judgments - first upon the serpent (vv. 14-15), then upon Eve (v. 16), and finally upon Adam (vv. 17-19), who is mankind's covenant representative. The only divine judgment following death, then, is the return of our earthly bodies to the elements from which they were originally formed. And those who are dead do not even consciously experience this judgment, for "the dead know not anything" (Eccl 9:5), and "there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol" (Eccl 9:10). The dead "sleep" until they are "made alive in Christ" on the "last day." And there is no judgment said to follow the immortal resurrection of the dead, because it is at this point that God becomes "all in all."

For an alternate interpretation of Hebrews 9:27 that does not see the "death" in view as being literal death, simply Google "Pantelism" and "Return of the High Priest." This is a short article that was written by a "full preterist" named David Embury. Not sure if I agree with his take on this verse, but it's a fairly plausible explanation.

In Christ,
Aaron

[thelasttrumpet]

In the article by Matt Slick provided by AV1611, Slick writes:


The phrase "forever and ever" is used both of describing God's eternal worth and the duration of eternal damnation. The exact same Greek phrase is used in each of the verses in the table below.

forever and ever


aionas ton aionon

"ages of the ages"
Eternal - without end
Eternal Damnation






"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).
". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:13).

"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever" (Rev. 19:3).
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).



With all due respect to Mr. Slick, his arguments against the Christian universalist position are lame. No aion (age) is endless in duration; whether singular or plural, aion always denotes a long but temporary duration of time. That’s why Paul and John could use such a phrase as “ages of the ages” without creating an absurdity (does “endless durations of the endless durations” or "eternities of the eternities" make sense to anyone? Perhaps Mr. Slick could explain it). Furthermore, Paul says there was a time before the ages came into being (2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2; cf. Heb 1:2). Was God not glorified and honored then? Of course he was. But when God created the earth (and thereby brought the ages into being), he could rightfully be referred to as “the aionion (age-during) God” (Rom 16:26, etc.). As such, he receives glory and honor as the One who continues throughout the ages, sovereignly ruling over them. And God will continue to have glory and honor after the final age of this planet has run its course, and Christ delivers up the kingdom to his Father, and God becomes “all in all.” The fact that honor and glory is said to be to God and his Son for “the ages of the ages” no more limits their glory and honor to these temporal periods of time than referring to God as “the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” limits God to these three patriarchs alone. Paul and John are simply placing an emphasis on the fact that Jesus and his Father are glorified, honored and have dominion throughout all ages - especially that which was then present (the old covenant age), and that which was yet future (the new covenant age of Christ's mediatorial reign).

Matt Slick goes on to say:


The Greek phrase "aionas ton aionon," which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great whore of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.
Also worth examining is Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
The Greek in Rev. 14:11 is only slightly different. In the table above, "forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, "aionas ton aionon," which is literally "ages of the of ages." In Rev. 14:11, the Greek is "aionas aionon" which is literally, "ages of ages." In the latter, the single Greek word "of the" is missing. But it is not necessary and does not change the meaning of the text. Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.


Mr. Slick's argument starts off flawed at the beginning of this article, and continues without any improvement. Slick seems more committed to the doctrine of endless suffering than to logic and sound interpretation of scripture.

The background to this description in Revelation 14:9-11 is Jeremiah 25:15-16, Isaiah 51:17-23 and Isaiah 34:5-10. All three OT passages are descriptions of national judgments in this life, not in the future world beyond the grave.

For example, Isaiah 34:5-10 reads,

"For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; behold, it descends for judgment upon Edom, upon the people I have devoted to destruction. The LORD has a sword; it is sated with blood; it is gorged with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, a great slaughter in the land of Edom. Wild oxen shall fall with them, and young steers with the mighty bulls. Their land shall drink its fill of blood, and their soil shall be gorged with fat.

"For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur;
her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever."

This is the same kind of prophetic language that John uses in Revelation 14. Both passages contain hyperbolic, colorful descriptions of temporal judgments transpiring in this world. In neither passage does the smoke literally rise without end (nor need the “smoke” be seen as literal at all). The “torment” of the unrighteous simply continues as long as they are worshipping the beast, and the “smoke of their torment” continues to rise as a long-lasting memorial to God's righteous judgment of these earth-dwelling worshippers of the beast (which, at the time John was writing, was the Roman Empire, and its then-emperor, Nero). The time when the "smoke of their torment" ascends for “the ages of the ages,” and they have “no rest," corresponds with their worship of the beast. The “torment” is suffered in this life, while the worship of the beast is in progress. That it is a temporal judgment is also clear from the fact that the period is divided into days and nights (v. 11). Its fulfillment is thus on earth, in time, not in "eternity." That it is taking place on the earth is crystal clear from Rev 16:1-2:

"Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God." So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image."

Twice we are told that this divine judgment on those who worship the beast is on earth.

Again, I challenge all partialists on this forum (that means you, Calvin devotees) to give one example in scripture where the “wrath of God” is said to be somewhere other than on earth, during this mortal existence. Or, give one scriptural example that demonstrates that "election" pertains to some life other than this one.

In Christ,
Aaron

[wnwall]

The simple fact is, only the elect benefit from Christ's death and resurrection in THIS LIFE

What do you do with 1 Corinthians 15:19?

If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

[thelasttrumpet]

What do you do with 1 Corinthians 15:19?

Quote:
If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20th August 2007 12:43 PM


I'm not sure I'm following you here. Paul says this in the context of the resurretion of the dead (which means the salvation of all who die in Adam by their being "made in Christ"). But, Paul is arguing, if Christ has not been raised, their hope in him in this life is in vain, and neither they nor anyone else will be saved after death. If Christ has not been raised, then death will be the permanent end of existence for all. And if so, they ought to be pitied more than anyone else for putting their hope in a mere man who had not conquered death.

But thanks be to God, this is not so. Christ is risen, and will resurrect all who die in Adam on the last day. Thus, the believer's hope is not in vain, and they are not to be pitied in this life for hoping in Christ. Their hope will be realized. As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Aaron

[thelasttrumpet]

Just to give y'all a heads up, I will no longer be frequenting this forum, since it seems to be pretty dead right now.

In Christ,
Aaron

[Boxmaker]

Just to give y'all a heads up, I will no longer be frequenting this forum, since it seems to be pretty dead right now.

In Christ,
Aaron
Well what did you expect when this forum baned Jesus?!

[justsurfing]

With all due respect to Mr. Slick, his arguments against the Christian universalist position are lame.

Hi,

During the weekend in which I studied the original Greek/Hebrew and evaluated the universalist position... and re-read scripture... I checked out Mr. Slick's anti-unversalist argument.

I said the same thing, "His arguments are lame." I was like, "Is this the 'best' argument that an anti-universalist can give?"

Thoroughly convinced me that they were grasping at straws of tradition. Must be no truly valid argument against the position could be set forth... so they resorted to lame arguments and a rallying cry of "Heaven wouldn't be Heaven... were it not for hell"... kind of thing. "If punishment isn't eternal, then life in Christ isn't!"

The site promoted poor language studies, imo... and ridiculous, lame plays on emotionalism linked to exclusivism.

All Heaven needs to be Heaven - all we need for unending life - is Jesus Christ.

God bless,

js

[pippa]

AV1611 said:



Okey dokey. I'll make a somewhat brief case for universal salvation, and separate it into 3 sections (with a brief word on "eternal punishment" at the end). Then, I'll just let you respond, and we can go from there.

them with the one through whom sin originally entered the world.


i'm very interested in your view because i'm about to leave the church if i cant find an explanation of God's apparent cruelty re hell and suffering. the answers i've received so far havent addressed the questions i've put. anyway, can you give me link to site which has a simple explanation of your universalist view? thanks

[justsurfing]

Sis... you have a tender heart of compassion and love... and so does Jesus.

If you are too compassionate to contemplate and tolerate the very idea of God willfully creating people to torture them eternally in hell... how much more compassion and loving is Jesus Christ???

Who died that we might live???

www.tentmaker.org (http://www.tentmaker.org)

or maybe it's

www.tentmakers.org (http://www.tentmakers.org)

Your spirit is grieved... for a reason.

The Spirit is grieved by this talk of God's hate and hell for eternity.

It's not true!!!!

It's not Jesus!!!!

Jesus is the Truth.

Be blessed sister. God is near to the broken-hearted... and will comfort your soul with His Love.

I know what you mean... I know just what you mean.

I pray God is working in your life to draw you closer to His heart of pure love... as you search for the answers of how a God of Love could willfully send people to hell for eternity who never had any human ability to believe or love Him... having been born into a fallen state.

It would be "creative genocide"... or worse... causing them to live and exist in eternal torture beyond anything we could imagine.

No! That is why Jesus Christ went to hell Himself, died for us, and got the keys!!!

I wouldn't trust any of these people with the keys of death and hell. They'd say, "God is just to keep people locked up in hell for eternity."

But, dear sister, fear not.

Jesus has the keys... and will free every last soul.

He is a friend that sticks closer than a brother.

Jesus... friend of sinners. We can trust His Love.

Blessings.

i'm very interested in your view because i'm about to leave the church if i cant find an explanation of God's apparent cruelty re hell and suffering. the answers i've received so far havent addressed the questions i've put. anyway, can you give me link to site which has a simple explanation of your universalist view? thanks

[Boxmaker]

Sis... you have a tender heart of compassion and love... and so does Jesus.

If you are too compassionate to contemplate and tolerate the very idea of God willfully creating people to torture them eternally in hell... how much more compassion and loving is Jesus Christ???

Who died that we might live???

www.tentmaker.org (http://www.tentmaker.org)

or maybe it's

www.tentmakers.org (http://www.tentmakers.org)

Your spirit is grieved... for a reason.

The Spirit is grieved by this talk of God's hate and hell for eternity.

It's not true!!!!

It's not Jesus!!!!

Jesus is the Truth.

Be blessed sister. God is near to the broken-hearted... and will comfort your soul with His Love.

I know what you mean... I know just what you mean.

I pray God is working in your life to draw you closer to His heart of pure love... as you search for the answers of how a God of Love could willfully send people to hell for eternity who never had any human ability to believe or love Him... having been born into a fallen state.

It would be "creative genocide"... or worse... causing them to live and exist in eternal torture beyond anything we could imagine.

No! That is why Jesus Christ went to hell Himself, died for us, and got the keys!!!

I wouldn't trust any of these people with the keys of death and hell. They'd say, "God is just to keep people locked up in hell for eternity."

But, dear sister, fear not.

Jesus has the keys... and will free every last soul.

He is a friend that sticks closer than a brother.

Jesus... friend of sinners. We can trust His Love.

Blessings.

If you follow this line of garbage you may well find out what hell is and why people go there. Universalism is evil, plain and simple. It is a teaching of Satan designed to steal people away from God.

Remember, Jesus was 100% effective on the cross. ALL of your sins are forgiven. Past, present and future, all forgiven You will not be sent to hell for your sins. So why is there a hell? Simple. Jesus, God incarnate, came to us and suffered great humiliation and suffering to forgive your sins. He rose from the dead so that those who accept Him as savior would also defeat death.

Hell is there for those people who hear about Jesus and reject Him. Hell is for people who tell God to get lost, I don't need you. God is willing to honor their decision and God will not make them spend eternity with Him if they don't want.

So why doesn't God give people a second chance to accept Christ after they die? Because salvation requires a gift of Faith, a gift from God. When you die and stand before God and Jesus, faith is no longer possible. Faith is a belief in that which cannot be proven. When standing before God, there is no need for faith because you know for a fact that it is all true. But knowledge does not save, faith does.

God is not cruel or evil. God is Love but God is also just and wrathful. That God created hell and told us how we will end up there shows His wrath and vengeance. That God sent His Son so that whomsoever believes will be saved to God shows His great love and compassion.

God be with you as you search!

[thelasttrumpet]

If you follow this line of garbage you may well find out what hell is and why people go there. Universalism is evil, plain and simple. It is a teaching of Satan designed to steal people away from God.


Hi Boxmaker,

What you're saying about universalism being a teaching of satan has absolutely no scriptural support. Where are we told that the belief that God is the Savior of all people was designed to steal people away from God? Is such an idea taught anywhere in the scriptures? Can it even be inferred? Or is this someone's mere opinion - something made up in order to scare people into orthodox belief? I'm sorry, but assertions such as this will carry little weight for those who are not easily motivated by fear, and who view the Bible as authoritative.

Certainly, false teachings can lead people astray (1 Tim 4:1-3), and, depending on the error of the teaching, will produce various undesirable fruits in the lives of those who embrace them (such as bondage to fear, self-righteousness, anger, a calloused indifference to the well-being of others, etc.), but what makes you think such consequences will extend beyond this life? Any how do you think it's possible for anyone to be "stolen away from God," in an absolute sense?

Aaron

[heymikey80]

As the adjective form of aion, it can never mean more than the noun. As “beauty” is to “beautiful,” or “length” is to “long,” so aion is to aionion. Similarly, just as "daily" can never mean “yearly” (because its limit is defined by the noun "day" from which it’s derived), so aionion can never carry the meaning of “endlessness,” for no aion is without end.
That's simply false. The very example, "daily", is quite often used to represent "day after day", that is -- more than one day.

An eon is an indefinite amount of time: something that is indeterminately long. The adjectival form of this length of time is the same: an indeterminately long period of time. That is, the person isn't extinguished after a definite period of punishment -- but is punished indefinitely.

Other statements point to the lack of death under this condition -- "where their worm does not die, nor is the fire quenched". Appeals to this actually being the Valley of Hinnom are unlikely, because nobody was actually punished by being dropped alive into this garbage dump.

Finally, the sheep & goats in Matthew 25 doesn't refer to a millenial punishment (which in any event would only work in premillenialism). It refers to the punishment on the Last Day.

[thelasttrumpet]

Originally Posted by thelasttrumpet http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=37787059#post37787059)
As the adjective form of aion, it can never mean more than the noun. As “beauty” is to “beautiful,” or “length” is to “long,” so aion is to aionion. Similarly, just as "daily" can never mean “yearly” (because its limit is defined by the noun "day" from which it’s derived), so aionion can never carry the meaning of “endlessness,” for no aion is without end.


That's simply false. The very example, "daily", is quite often used to represent "day after day", that is -- more than one day.

Hi Mikey,

Unless you can show that aion ever means an endless duration of time in the NT, how does what you say support the idea of a punishment that literally has no end? It would seem that by your reasoning, if Jesus had said "daily punishment" or "yearly punishment" it would still count as evidence for you that the unrighteous will be punished endlessly.

An eon is an indefinite amount of time: something that is indeterminately long. The adjectival form of this length of time is the same: an indeterminately long period of time. That is, the person isn't extinguished after a definite period of punishment -- but is punished indefinitely.


Certainly, but what scriptural evidence do you offer to demonstrate that this indefinite period of punishment will never end? What evidence do you offer that the place in which this indefintely long punishment occurs is somewhere other than in this temporal world? I think you'll be hard-pressed to present any such scriptural evidence.

Other statements point to the lack of death under this condition -- "where their worm does not die, nor is the fire quenched". Appeals to this actually being the Valley of Hinnom are unlikely, because nobody was actually punished by being dropped alive into this garbage dump.

"And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh" (Isaiah 66:2).

This national judgment was completely confined to this world. Those being eaten by worms and burned with fire are neither conscious nor alive; they're corpses. Neither this passage in Isaiah nor Jesus' allusion to it contains anything about conscious suffering, much less suffering that endures to "all eternity." And regarding the phrase "unquenchable fire," the Jews to whom Jesus spoke had never heard such language used of anything except national judgments (Jer 17:27; Isaiah 34:9-10; Eze 20:47-48; Amos 5:5-6, etc.)


And as far as this being a picture of anyone being burned alive in the Valley of Hinnom, I would agree with you that neither Jesus nor Isaiah had this in mind. The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) is in fact an emblem of national judgment upon Israel. Anyone familiar with Jeremiah 19 (cf. 7:30-34) would know this.

What scriptural evidence do you have that Gehenna refers to a place in the immortal world where millions (billions?) of undying people are to be tortured without end?


Finally, the sheep & goats in Matthew 25 doesn't refer to a millenial punishment (which in any event would only work in premillenialism). It refers to the punishment on the Last Day.

Actually, I never suggested that it referred to a "millenial punishment." This is about Christ's coming in the destruction of Jerusalem at the end of the old covenant age (the context begins back at Matt 24:1-3), not his coming to raise the dead at the end of the Messianic reign (1 Cor 15:20-28). It was at the overthrow of the nation of Israel in 70 AD that "all nations" were gathered (Zech 14:1-2). The judgment of which Christ speaks is a past event; it took place before the generation of which Christ was a member passed away (Matt 24:34). On that day of judgment, the unrighteous people of Israel went into "age-during punishment" (or "the punishment of the age") and the righteous people of Israel went into "age-during life" (or "the life of the age"). Neither the punishment nor the life is endless; both pertain to this world, and will last until the Messianic age (the age in which we live) comes to a close with the resurrection of the dead (at which time all who died in Adam will be "made alive in Christ" and will be "children of God, being children of the resurrection" - Luke 20:36).

Aaron

[Boxmaker]

Hi Boxmaker,

What you're saying about universalism being a teaching of satan has absolutely no scriptural support. Where are we told that the belief that God is the Savior of all people was designed to steal people away from God? Is such an idea taught anywhere in the scriptures? Can it even be inferred? Or is this someone's mere opinion - something made up in order to scare people into orthodox belief? I'm sorry, but assertions such as this will carry little weight for those who are not easily motivated by fear, and who view the Bible as authoritative.

Certainly, false teachings can lead people astray (1 Tim 4:1-3), and, depending on the error of the teaching, will produce various undesirable fruits in the lives of those who embrace them (such as bondage to fear, self-righteousness, anger, a calloused indifference to the well-being of others, etc.), but what makes you think such consequences will extend beyond this life? Any how do you think it's possible for anyone to be "stolen away from God," in an absolute sense?

Aaron
Read what Jesus says in Matthew 25. It is not my opinion that universalism is evil. It is the fact that Jesus speaks directly against it the teaches me it is evil. There is an eternal heaven and an eternal hell. You have only this life to make you choice. To believe anything else is to be deceived. Who is the great deceiver?

[thelasttrumpet]

Read what Jesus says in Matthew 25. It is not my opinion that universalism is evil. It is the fact that Jesus speaks directly against it the teaches me it is evil. There is an eternal heaven and an eternal hell. You have only this life to make you choice. To believe anything else is to be deceived. Who is the great deceiver?


Jesus speaks neither for nor against universalism in Matthew 25. I read nothing in this chapter about an "eternal heaven" that is gained by the righteous for their righteous deeds, nor of an "eternal hell" that awaits the unrighteous for their unrighteous deeds. No, that with which the sheep are said to be blessed is zōē aiōnios (life age-during)and that with which the goats are said to be cursed is kolasis aiōnios (punishment age-during). Aiōnios is nothing more than the adjective form of aion. As such, the word pertains to an age, just as daily pertains to a day, and monthly pertains to a month. Unless you can argue from scripture that aion means an endless duration of time, then there is nothing in the adjective form of the word that necessitates such a meaning.

Furthermore, you assume that the persons of which our Lord speaks are in an immortal state when they go into their life and punishment. But does the passage say anything about them having been made immortal? Does it say anything about them having died? Does it say anything about them having been resurrected? No, not one word is said about it. But, there is a great deal said about the awful judgment that was soon to fall upon the unbelieving Jews of Christ's generation in the preceeding chapters. Perhaps instead of assuming so much, you would be wise to place the 25th chapter in its proper context.

Also, where do you read in scripture that our post-mortem destiny hinges on a choice we make in this life?

Aaron

[Boxmaker]

Jesus speaks neither for nor against universalism in Matthew 25. I read nothing in this chapter about an "eternal heaven" that is gained by the righteous for their righteous deeds, nor of an "eternal hell" that awaits the unrighteous for their unrighteous deeds. No, that with which the sheep are said to be blessed is zōē aiōnios (life age-during)and that with which the goats are said to be cursed is kolasis aiōnios (punishment age-during). Aiōnios is nothing more than the adjective form of aion. As such, the word pertains to an age, just as daily pertains to a day, and monthly pertains to a month. Unless you can argue from scripture that aion means an endless duration of time, then there is nothing in the adjective form of the word that necessitates such a meaning. Read Matthew 25 again only this time pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit first. Note that verse 46 very clearly states that paradise and hell are eternal. Also have a prayerful look ate Revelation 20.

As to your argument that changing the ending of the word can't make it more than the original, consider this. What happens when you add less to time. Timeless. Do time and timeless mean the same? Is one more than the other? How abaout age (aioin)? What happens when you add less to age? Ageless? Are an age and something that is ageless the same?

Furthermore, you assume that the persons of which our Lord speaks are in an immortal state when they go into their life and punishment. But does the passage say anything about them having been made immortal? Does it say anything about them having died? Does it say anything about them having been resurrected? No, not one word is said about it. But, there is a great deal said about the awful judgment that was soon to fall upon the unbelieving Jews of Christ's generation in the preceeding chapters. Perhaps instead of assuming so much, you would be wise to place the 25th chapter in its proper context.

Also, where do you read in scripture that our post-mortem destiny hinges on a choice we make in this life?

Aaron

I would have to conclude that you don't know the Gospel. When you read the Gospel in its entirety it is always aimed at saving people in this life. The parables used by Jesus to teach about the kingdom always talk about those not going to the kingdom being cast into the fire and burned. It is never a purifying fire, it is always a destructive fire. Always. When Jesus sends the goats away he says that He never knew them. Never.

Universalism is a prevision of the Gospel that allows people to die thinking they will get a second chance that never comes. I have spoken to universalists at length about this and they have always said that if you are willing to do the time in hell, you can live your time on earth any way you want. You can spend you whole life rejecting and hating God and still go to heaven. Thats stupid.

So, can you spend your life hating God and still go to heaven? Can you spend your life killing Jews and still go to heaven? Can you spend your life using God's name to steal money for people and still go to heaven?

One last thing to consider. Salvation is by faith and that faith is a gift from God. Note that it is faith that saves, not knowledge. When you stand before Jesus, faith will no longer be possible. Instead you will have absolute knowledge. And that counts for absolutely nothing.

[thelasttrumpet]

Read Matthew 25 again only this time pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit first. Note that verse 46 very clearly states that paradise and hell are eternal. Also have a prayerful look ate Revelation 20.


I don’t see the words "paradise" and "hell" anywhere in this passage. What Bible translation are you using? As for “eternal,” I’ve already explained that it doesn’t mean “endless.” It’s the adjective form of aion; as such, it doesn’t pertain to anything more or less than that. Prove to me from scripture that aion means endless duration; if you can’t, you have no argument, because the adjective aionios, as it's used in scripture, doesn’t mean more or less than aion, from which it was derived.


While it is true that no one has a handle on all the truth that there is to be known, I’m afraid that your acceptance of such an unbiblical and blasphemous doctrine as endless torment puts you in much greater error than I may be in concerning other things. And because the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of truth, I can’t help but think that your acceptance of such a doctrine indicates that you’re not being guided by him at all in regards to this particular matter, but are instead being led by “blind guides.”


As for Revelation 20, I assure you that I’ve prayerfully read that chapter many times. I see absolutely nothing in it that supports your belief in endless, post-mortem punishment.

As to your argument that changing the ending of the word can't make it more than the original, consider this. What happens when you add less to time. Timeless. Do time and timeless mean the same? Is one more than the other? How abaout age (aioin)? What happens when you add less to age? Ageless? Are an age and something that is ageless the same?

When did I argue that changing the ending of a word can’t make it more than the original? I don’t see where I’ve attempted to make that argument at all. Now, your point about “timeless” and “ageless” is utterly irrelevant to what I’ve said about aion and aionion. If the word Jesus used was indeed “ageless” or “timeless” you might have something on which to base your argument. You would certainly have more to work with than you have right now. Unfortunately for you and your unsubstantiated doctrine, however, Jesus doesn’t use the word “ageless” in Matthew 25:46. There is not one word in the Bible about “ageless” or "timeless" punishment. Thus, that leaves you completely without an argument. The word, as you're aware, is aionion; your task is to demonstrate from scripture that this word is used to mean something other than “that which pertains to an age.” If you can’t do that, why continue to cling to such an unscriptural doctrine?

I would have to conclude that you don't know the Gospel. When you read the Gospel in its entirety it is always aimed at saving people in this life.

When have I denied that the Gospel is "aimed at saving people in this life"? Just because I deny that salvation is from endless torture after death doesn’t mean I believe that there is nothing else to be saved from. The Bible speaks of plenty of evils from which we may be saved in this life – the greatest of which is sin. But nowhere in scripture do I read of endless punishment as being one of those evils. Endless, post-mortem punishment is not even mentioned in the Bible, let alone is it said to be something to which all mankind is exposed until they do something about it before they die. Where is your scriptural proof to the contrary?

The parables used by Jesus to teach about the kingdom always talk about those not going to the kingdom being cast into the fire and burned. It is never a purifying fire, it is always a destructive fire. Always. When Jesus sends the goats away he says that He never knew them. Never.

I agree with you that the fire which the NT says awaited the unrighteous was not a “purifying fire.” It was the fire of a national judgment against unfaithful Israel that led to the premature death of many an unbelieving Jew of that generation. Regarding the "kingdom of God," where is your evidence that Jesus spoke of it as referring to a reality that is yet future? The entire NT speaks of the kingdom over which Christ was to reign as being something that was at hand (Mark 1:14-15, etc.), and which the saints were already in the process of receiving (Heb 12:28; cf. 1:2; 10:37).

In Luke 9:27, Jesus told his disciples that there were some (tis, meaning one or more) standing with him who would not “taste death” until they saw the kingdom of God (and we know this doesn’t refer to the transfiguration which took place a week later, because none of Christ’s disciples “tasted death” before that time). In Luke 21:31, Jesus also told his disciples that when they saw the signs which foretold the imminent overthrow of the Jewish nation (see Luke 21:5-28), they would know that the kingdom of God was near. And in the very next verse, he told them that all the things of which he was speaking would take place before that generation passed away (the word Christ uses for "generation," genea, is always used by him to refer to the people living in the same time period in which he lived; in other words, Christ uses it to refer to his contemporaries).

The kingdom of God as spoken of by Christ is a spiritual reality in this world (Rom 14:17). As such, it is here and now; Christ is now reigning over his kingdom, and has been for nearly 2000 years. This kingdom was already present during the time of Christ’s earthly ministry (if you want proof of this, just read through the earlier chapters of the Gospels) but it “came with power” at the destruction of Jerusalem, approximately 40 years after Christ’s earthly ministry began. Every time Christ talks about anyone being cast out of the kingdom, or being cast into a “furnace of fire,” it refers to a national judgment that took place in this world when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans under general Titus. See Isaiah 31:9 and Ezekiel 22:18-22 for similar language used, which describes a previous judgment that fell upon Israel at the hands of the Babylonians.

As before, I demand scriptural evidence that the judgment experienced by those cast out of the kingdom was (or will be) experienced somewhere other than in this temporal world. Please demonstrate that the “furnace of fire” or any other similar description of judgment is experienced somewhere other than in this world, and that such punishment is endless in duration.

Universalism is a prevision of the Gospel that allows people to die thinking they will get a second chance that never comes.

I don’t believe in "second chances" when it comes to our salvation in Christ because I don’t believe in "first chances." No one gets a “second chance” because no one gets a “first chance.” I thought this was a Calvinist debate thread, yet you’re speaking as if you’re an Arminian. Are you reformed or not? Salvation is not by “chance.” If I wanted to debate "free will theists," then I would have gone to that area of the forum.

I have spoken to universalists at length about this and they have always said that if you are willing to do the time in hell, you can live your time on earth any way you want. You can spend you whole life rejecting and hating God and still go to heaven. Thats stupid.

I agree that such loose thinking is “stupid,” and I regret that the universalists with whom you’ve spoken believe that we can live any way we want without consequences. They are wrong. There are indeed consequences for everything we do; our sin will always find us out and make us miserable in life. Sin can never bring real joy or peace in life - only bitterness and regret. I do deny, however, that scripture teaches the consequences of sin to extend beyond this life. The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23), not endless torment.

So, can you spend your life hating God and still go to heaven? Can you spend your life killing Jews and still go to heaven? Can you spend your life using God's name to steal money for people and still go to heaven?

Most evangelicals – even the most conservative fundamentalist - would answer “yes” to all of the above, provided the person repents of all the sins they committed and “accepts Christ” right before they die. I often hear of Christians praising God for the fact that people “accepted Christ” while on their deathbed, right before they “entered eternity.” If you think it’s possible for people to be “saved” right before they die, then you can answer “yes” to all of the above, as well.

As for what the scripture teaches, however, any blessing or curse we may experience as a result of the choices we make in this life is experienced in this life as well. The blessing of “eternal life” is not heaven. It is the life of the age, which Christ defines in John 17:3 as an intimate faith relationship with he and the Father. It is something to be enjoyed in this life, not after we die.

Moreover, Heaven is not the reward for those who don’t hate God, kill Jews, and steal money from people using God’s name - and I demand scriptural evidence to the contrary. While living without faith in Christ and his Gospel will keep one from experiencing true righteousness, joy and peace in one's life while living, there is not a verse in the Bible that says our sins will keep us out of heaven after we die. There is not one verse in the Bible that says we can do anything at all to change our post-mortem destiny. There is no decision, no work, no anything that we can do in this life to save us from death after this life is over. We are at the complete mercy of Almighty God. And thanks be to him that all people – both “just and unjust” - are destined to be “made alive in Christ” on the “last day” of his Messianic reign! And it is in the immortal resurrection that all the families and nations of the earth will be blessed in Christ, the seed of Abraham. Believe that good news, and you will truly be saved - not from post-mortem torments (to which you were never exposed in the first place), but from sin, bondage to fear, and ignorance of the true character of our Heavenly Father, as he as revealed himself in Jesus Christ.

One last thing to consider. Salvation is by faith and that faith is a gift from God. Note that it is faith that saves, not knowledge. When you stand before Jesus, faith will no longer be possible. Instead you will have absolute knowledge. And that counts for absolutely nothing.

Once again, you assume that the salvation which we experience by faith is salvation from endless, post-mortem punishment. But I demand proof of this. I demand scriptural evidence that the salvation which we enjoy by faith is a salvation from any evil which people do not NOW experience, in this life. Can you provide any such evidence?

Here is my challange to you: please provide ONE scripture verse or passage that demonstrates that salvation by faith is from endless, post-mortem punishment. If you think you have a dozen, fine; but let’s discuss them one at a time. I don’t have a lot of time to continue responding to everything you say, so if you respond to this post, I'm afraid that the only thing I will respond to is a verse or passage that you provide (with an explanation of why you chose it) as proof that the salvation which the believer receives by faith is from endless, post-mortem punishment. So please don't be offended, but I will have to pass over anything else you may say as being irrelevant to our discussion.

Your brother in Christ,
Aaron

[Boxmaker]

First you say this
...It’s the adjective form of aion; as such, it doesn’t pertain to anything more or less than that.
Followed by this



When did I argue that changing the ending of a word can’t make it more than the original? [
You are kind of talking out of both sides of your mouth but okay.




Here is my challange to you: please provide ONE scripture verse or passage that demonstrates that salvation by faith is from endless, post-mortem punishment. If you think you have a dozen, fine; but let’s discuss them one at a time. I don’t have a lot of time to continue responding to everything you say, so if you respond to this post, I'm afraid that the only thing I will respond to is a verse or passage that you provide (with an explanation of why you chose it) as proof that the salvation which the believer receives by faith is from endless, post-mortem punishment. So please don't be offended, but I will have to pass over anything else you may say as being irrelevant to our discussion.

Your brother in Christ,
Aaron
Okay, I'll play your silly little game but you will reject my answer because there is not one verse in the bible that says "you are saved from eternal damnation". It requires you to study the whole New Testament, not just proof text it. That having been said, the Bible does say this:

Matthew 18:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Note the use of the word never

Revelation 21:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

There is absolutely no scriptural reference of being resurrected from the second death denoting it perminance. (Of special note, the OT uses Gehna(sp) to describe hell and is understood to be the valley where trash was burned. The NT uses the lake of fire or burning sulpher to describe hell)

Hebrews 3:7-12 (New International Version)

7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' " 12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.

Again, note the use of the word never.

Revelation 11:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&verse=15&version=31&context=verse)
[ The Seventh Trumpet ] The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

While this verse does not deal directly with salvation, it does address the issue of eternity.

Well there is scriptural support for the finalness of eternal damnation.

[thelasttrumpet]

(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)Quote: (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)

Matthew 18:3

Quote:
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will neverenter the kingdom of heaven.

Note the use of the word never
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)

What leads you to believe that the “kingdom of heaven” of which Christ speaks in this verse is entered somewhere other than in this world, and during this lifetime? What reason(s) do you have for believing that it is something other than a present reality that can be entered and enjoyed in this world before you die?


(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)Quote: (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)

Revelation 21:8

Quote:
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

There is absolutely no scriptural reference of being resurrected from the second death denoting it perminance. (Of special note, the OT uses Gehna(sp) to describe hell and is understood to be the valley where trash was burned. The NT uses the lake of fire or burning sulpher to describe hell)
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)


What leads you to believe that the lake of fire/second death is a judgment experienced somewhere other than in this world? Please provide some reason(s) why you see this as being something other than a temporal judgment that people experience(d) in this life.


Quote:
Hebrews 3:7-12 (New International Version)

Quote:

7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' " 12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.

Again, note the use of the word never.


What leads you to believe that the “rest” which unbelievers will never enter is something other than a salvation which is to be entered and enjoyed in this life?

Quote:
Revelation 11:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&verse=15&version=31&context=verse)
[ The Seventh Trumpet ] The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

While this verse does not deal directly with salvation, it does address the issue of eternity.


Is it your understanding that the word translated as “forever” means eternity by itself, or do only the words translated “forever AND ever” denote eternity to you? Please explain.


Thanks,
Aaron

[Boxmaker]

What leads you to believe that the “kingdom of heaven” of which Christ speaks in this verse is entered somewhere other than in this world, and during this lifetime? What reason(s) do you have for believing that it is something other than a present reality that can be entered and enjoyed in this world before you die? You're kidding, right? Does it matter where the Kingdom is if you will never enter it?




What leads you to believe that the lake of fire/second death is a judgment experienced somewhere other than in this world? Please provide some reason(s) why you see this as being something other than a temporal judgment that people experience(d) in this life.Again, does it matter where it is? The fact is that once there, you do not get out. No resurection from the second death. In order to counter this argument you must produce a scripture that talks about the resurection from the second death please.




What leads you to believe that the “rest” which unbelievers will never enter is something other than a salvation which is to be entered and enjoyed in this life? When you accept Chrsit's finished work on the cross and receive the gift of faith from God, you enter into the sabbath rest in Christ. It is no longer your will that you try to conform to God's law, it is God's will in you that directs your life from that time forward. In this particular verse, God is saying that He is so disgusted by the generations lack of faith that God has rejected them and will never again allow them into His presence.


Is it your understanding that the word translated as “forever” means eternity by itself, or do only the words translated “forever AND ever” denote eternity to you? Please explain.
The people who wrote the Gospels and epistles used slang in their writing the same we we do - to emphasize a point. "Forever" and "forever and ever" mean exactly the same thing. You could make your point by saying forever but you emphasize your point by saying forever and ever.

By the way, what the devil dose "age-during" mean? Is it a measure of time? Is it just an expression? I have never found a definition of it any place. The time I ever hear the term used is in discussions like this. So what does it mean?

[thelasttrumpet]

http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=42624693#post42624693)




You're kidding, right? Does it matter where the Kingdom is if you will never enter it?


No, I'm not kidding, Boxmaker. We're talking about the final, post-mortem destinies of billions of human lives here. This is not a joke to me. And yes, I believe it matters a great deal where the kingdom in view here is to be found. To say it doesn't matter is simply to beg the question. And I can't let you do that; this is too important a topic.

If the kingdom of which Christ is speaking is a this-world reality - a salvific experience that is entered and enjoyed in this life by faith in Christ - then whether or not one gets "in" may or may not have any bearing whatsoever on what happens after this life is over. So my question is whether the kingdom of which Christ speaks refers to something other than a this-world/this-life reality. So, I'm asking that you show me from scripture that the kingdom of which Christ speaks refers to something that is entered after this life is over, and which can never be entered unless certain conditions are met before one dies. If this is what you believe, please provide scriptural evidence in support of your view on the matter.

In an earlier post, I said the following:

You assume that the salvation which we experience by faith is salvation from endless, post-mortem punishment. But I demand proof of this. I demand scriptural evidence that the salvation which we enjoy by faith is a salvation from any evil which people do not NOW experience, in this life. Can you provide any such evidence?

and


Please provide ONE scripture verse or passage that demonstrates that salvation by faith is from endless, post-mortem punishment.


Neither this verse nor the other two you provided even come close to meeting the challenge I presented to you. You have yet to show me from scripture that the kingdom of heaven of which Christ speaks in Matthew 18:3 is a post-mortem salvation from endless punishment that only those who "become like little children" before they die will experience. If you continue to beg the question, then that tells me you have no real argument.

[Boxmaker]

http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=42624693#post42624693)
No, I'm not kidding, Boxmaker. We're talking about the final, post-mortem destinies of billions of human lives here. This is not a joke to me. And yes, I believe it matters a great deal where the kingdom in view here is to be found. To say it doesn't matter is simply to beg the question. And I can't let you do that; this is too important a topic.

If the kingdom of which Christ is speaking is a this-world reality - a salvific experience that is entered and enjoyed in this life by faith in Christ - then whether or not one gets "in" may or may not have any bearing whatsoever on what happens after this life is over. So my question is whether the kingdom of which Christ speaks refers to something other than a this-world/this-life reality. So, I'm asking that you show me from scripture that the kingdom of which Christ speaks refers to something that is entered after this life is over, and which can never be entered unless certain conditions are met before one dies. If this is what you believe, please provide scriptural evidence in support of your view on the matter. You miss the point entirely. The location of the Kingdom and whether it is now or later is makes no difference. he Bible is quite clear when it states that some people will never enter it. Yes, that means some large number of people will never get out of the lake of fire.

Matthew 18:3

Quote:
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will neverenter the kingdom of heaven. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)

Note the word used here is translated as never. It is not based in aion. It just says never. I noted that you could not deal with that word and its implications so you throw up this post to divert me from the fact that you did not deal with it. Nor did you deal with request for a definition of an "age-during".

I am disappointed, though not surprised, by your tactics.

One last comment, the scriptural support you seek is in Matthew 25 and in Revelations. You reject the scripture because it does not support your personnel view o what God should be. God is not a teddy bear that loves and forgives everybody wily-nilly. By His own admission, God is a God of Love and wrath and vengeance. It please God right now to show mercy. Revelations is the book that describes what will happen when God decides to pour His wrath out upon the world.


Neither this verse nor the other two you provided even come close to meeting the challenge I presented to you. You have yet to show me from scripture that the kingdom of heaven of which Christ speaks in Matthew 18:3 is a post-mortem salvation from endless punishment that only those who "become like little children" before they die will experience. If you continue to beg the question, then that tells me you have no real argument.
I win this one hands down!:clap: Note that that my first response to you request for a verse was:
Okay, I'll play your silly little game but you will reject my answer because there is not one verse in the bible that says "you are saved from eternal damnation". It requires you to study the whole New Testament, not just proof text it. That having been said, the Bible does say this: My prediction was exactly right! You reject my arguments.

Here is an interesting challenge for you. Can you produce one verse from the Bible that says you will have a chance to accept Jesus after you die? Same rules. You must meet the exact standard you asked me to meet. I was honest in my initial response to you. I will wait to see if you are a person of integrity or not.

As to your comment regarding Matthew 18:3, the verse clearly states that some will never enter the kingdom. Again, the location and time of that kingdom are irrelevant to those who will never it. Try to limit your response to dealing with the word never.

[thelasttrumpet]

Quote:
Originally Posted by thelasttrumpet
What leads you to believe that the lake of fire/second death is a judgment experienced somewhere other than in this world? Please provide some reason(s) why you see this as being something other than a temporal judgment that people experience(d) in this life.

Again, does it matter where it is? The fact is that once there, you do not get out. No resurection from the second death. In order to counter this argument you must produce a scripture that talks about the resurection from the second death please.

Again, yes, it matters a great deal where this particular judgment is. If the “lake of fire”/”second death” is an ante-mortem judgment that either will take place, or already has taken place, in this world, during this mortal lifetime, then there is no reason whatsoever to understand it as determining the post-mortem destiny of anyone. And that is the question under discussion. I cannot let you simply beg the question, or assume the question under debate. If you cannot prove from scripture that this judgment takes place somewhere other than in this temporal world, and during this mortal lifetime, then how does this passage count as evidence of endless, post-mortem punishment?


With no argument from you to the contrary (and you have yet to provide any; all you’ve done is begged the question), for all I know this judgment is entirely confined to this life, and terminates with the physical deaths of those who experience it. And if that’s the case, then it does not support your doctrine in the least bit. It would have no more to do with anyone’s post-mortem destiny than the event Jesus mentions in Luke 13:4, where he speaks of a tower in Siloam falling and killing a number of people.


It would be like me arguing, in your own words, that all the Jews who perished in the judgment described in Ezekiel 22:18-22 (see below) will “not get out,” and that there is “no resurrection” from this judgment. But that’s absurd. And as of right now, that’s all I can make of your "argument."


"And the word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to me; all of them are bronze and tin and iron and lead in the furnace; they are dross of silver. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because you have all become dross, therefore, behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As one gathers silver and bronze and iron and lead and tin into a furnace, to blow the fire on it in order to melt it, so I will gather you in my anger and in my wrath, and I will put you in and melt you. I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of my wrath, and you shall be melted in the midst of it. As silver is melted in a furnace, so you shall be melted in the midst of it, and you shall know that I am the LORD; I have poured out my wrath upon you." (Ezekiel 22:18-22)


Fake challenge to myself: “The fact is that once in this judgment, you do not get out. No resurrection from this judgment. In order to counter this argument you must produce a scripture that talks about the resurrection from this judgment please.”


Challenge answered: "1 Cor 15:22."


And I answer your challenge in the same way, because I see no reason whatsoever to understand the judgment which John describes in Revelation 20 as being of a different nature than that which Ezekiel describes, above.


[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelasttrumpet
What leads you to believe that the “rest” which unbelievers will never enter is something other than a salvation which is to be entered and enjoyed in this life?

When you accept Chrsit's finished work on the cross and receive the gift of faith from God, you enter into the sabbath rest in Christ. It is no longer your will that you try to conform to God's law, it is God's will in you that directs your life from that time forward. In this particular verse, God is saying that He is so disgusted by the generations lack of faith that God has rejected them and will never again allow them into His presence.



I don’t read anything in the book of Hebrews about those not entering God’s rest “never again” being allowed into God's "presence.” Again, you seem to be reading things into the text that simply aren’t there, in order to substantiate your arguments. But even if it could be inferred from the text that the unbelievers of which the book of Hebrews speaks could never be allowed into God’s presence, how does this in any way support your doctrine of endless, post-mortem punishment? We’re told that Cain “went away from the presence of the LORD” after God cursed him to be a fugitive and wanderer on the earth (Gen 4:13-16); we’re told that Jonah fled from the presence of the LORD when he went to Joppa (Jonah 1:3); and in 2 Kings 24:20 (cf. 13:24) we’re told that the people of Jerusalem and Judah were cast out from the presence of the LORD because of their wickedness. All three examples pertain to this life. And what if, in all three examples, they were never allowed back into the same "presence of the LORD" from which they fled, or were banished? What then? We're not told; but there's no reason to think that it had (or has) anything to do with their's or anyone else's post-mortem fate.


Boxmaker, I'm afraid that there is nothing you’ve said that would convince any thinking person that the blessing of “rest” which the unbelievers spoken of in the book of Hebrews are never allowed to enjoy or experience is a post-mortem salvation that is from endless suffering. You simply assume it without proof. Once again, your entire argument begs the question, which is no argument at all.



Quote:
Originally Posted by thelasttrumpet
Is it your understanding that the word translated as “forever” means eternity by itself, or do only the words translated “forever AND ever” denote eternity to you? Please explain.

The people who wrote the Gospels and epistles used slang in their writing the same we we do - to emphasize a point. "Forever" and "forever and ever" mean exactly the same thing. You could make your point by saying forever but you emphasize your point by saying forever and ever.


In other words, are you saying that “forever and ever” is merely a hyperbolic, or idiomatic expression that means “for an endless, unceasing duration of time”? If that’s what you mean, do you have any proof of this?


The Greek reads as following: eis tous aionas ton aionon. Both "aionas" and "aionon" are in the plural. They are, in fact, plural forms of the Greek word "aion," which means “an indeterminate (not endless) period of time” – or simply, "an age.” The Zondervan Parallel NT in Greek and Englishtranslates the phrase in the following way: “unto the ages of the ages” (compare with Young’s Literal Translation andRotherham's Emphasized Bible). What’s interesting is that the word aion appears in other expressions similar to this one in other parts of the New Testament. In Ephesians 3:21, the word appears in the singular form first and then in the plural (aionos ton aionon, or “age of the ages”). In Hebrews 1:8, it is in the singular form both times (aiona tou aionos, or “age of the age”). And in the verse under consideration, it is in the plural form both times (aionas ton aionon, or “ages of the ages”).
Do you believe these are all “slang” expressions in the Greek that essentially mean, “for an endless, unceasing duration of time”? Do you have any proof of this?

[quote]By the way, what the devil dose "age-during" mean? Is it a measure of time? Is it just an expression? I have never found a definition of it any place. The time I ever hear the term used is in discussions like this. So what does it mean?

It means “during an age.” There is no perfect English equivalent to the adjective forms of the noun, aion (aionion, aioniou, aionios, which are simply different inflections of the adjective), so “age-during” is just one attempt at translating it. Some Greek scholars believe it more accurately means “belonging to an age,” as opposed to “during an age.” In either case, it is a fact that the adjective simply pertains to the noun. Again, just as monthly pertains to a month, and yearly pertains to a year, so aionion pertains to an aion. An “age” (aion) is simply an indefinite measure of time, and the adjective of “age” is simply “that which pertains to an age,” or which pertains to an indefinite period of time.


Aaron

[thelasttrumpet]

You miss the point entirely. The location of the Kingdom and whether it is now or later is makes no difference. he Bible is quite clear when it states that some people will never enter it. Yes, that means some large number of people will never get out of the lake of fire.


I did not miss your point. But you do seem to have missed mine. If the kingdom of heaven of which Christ speaks here is something entirely confined to this world (and there is nothing in Jesus’ words that indicates otherwise), then the fact that some people never enter it makes no difference as far as their post-mortem destiny is concerned.

You assume that the kingdom of heaven refers to a post-mortem salvation. I deny this, and demand proof of it. You have not proven or attempted to prove that the kingdom of heaven of which Christ speaks here is something entered after one dies, or is something that must be entered in order to be saved after one dies. You have simply assumed that this is the case, and that those who never enter the kingdom of heaven are doomed after they die. But where does scripture say or even imply this?

Here is an interesting challenge for you. Can you produce one verse from the Bible that says you will have a chance to accept Jesus after you die? Same rules. You must meet the exact standard you asked me to meet. I was honest in my initial response to you. I will wait to see if you are a person of integrity or not.

Scripture doesn’t even say anything about our having “a chance to accept Jesus” before we die; why would it say anything about our having “a chance to accept Jesus” after we die? So in answer to your challenge, I can produce no such scripture, because scripture does not say that anyone is saved after death by being given "a chance to accept Jesus," either before or after they die.

[Boxmaker]

Again, yes, it matters a great deal where this particular judgment is. If the “lake of fire”/”second death” is an ante-mortem judgment that either will take place, or already has taken place, in this world, during this mortal lifetime, then there is no reason whatsoever to understand it as determining the post-mortem destiny of anyone. And that is the question under discussion. I cannot let you simply beg the question, or assume the question under debate. If you cannot prove from scripture that this judgment takes place somewhere other than in this temporal world, and during this mortal lifetime, then how does this passage count as evidence of endless, post-mortem punishment?
Here is your "proof". (I hate proof texting but these two verse answer your question about judgment.

Revelation 20:12-13 (New International Version)

12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
The dead are judged in these verse, not the living. Matthew 25 is Jesus speaking directly about the results of that judgment.

Matthew 25:46 (New International Version)


46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Until you can provide some meaningful definition of why never doesn't mean never and what an age-during means, I will accept Jesus's teaching that punishment and life after judgment is eternal. Ball is in your court.


With no argument from you to the contrary (and you have yet to provide any; all you’ve done is begged the question), for all I know this judgment is entirely confined to this life, and terminates with the physical deaths of those who experience it. And if that’s the case, then it does not support your doctrine in the least bit. It would have no more to do with anyone’s post-mortem destiny than the event Jesus mentions in Luke 13:4, where he speaks of a tower in Siloam falling and killing a number of people. Scriptural support has been given to you to show that judgment occurs after death.


It would be like me arguing, in your own words, that all the Jews who perished in the judgment described in Ezekiel 22:18-22 (see below) will “not get out,” and that there is “no resurrection” from this judgment. But that’s absurd. And as of right now, that’s all I can make of your "argument."


"And the word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to me; all of them are bronze and tin and iron and lead in the furnace; they are dross of silver. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because you have all become dross, therefore, behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As one gathers silver and bronze and iron and lead and tin into a furnace, to blow the fire on it in order to melt it, so I will gather you in my anger and in my wrath, and I will put you in and melt you. I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of my wrath, and you shall be melted in the midst of it. As silver is melted in a furnace, so you shall be melted in the midst of it, and you shall know that I am the LORD; I have poured out my wrath upon you." (Ezekiel 22:18-22)All this shows me is that you fail to see a difference between the Old Covenant with Moses and the New Covenant with Jesus. In the old testament God was dealing with Israel. In the new testament, God is dealing with men, jew and gentile. Ezekiel is talking about God dealing with the nation of Israel during the OT and God's plan for Israel in the OT. All those OT prophesies have been fulfilled and we are now under a New Covenant that was established by the spilling of Christ's blood for the forgiveness of our sins.


Fake challenge to myself: “The fact is that once in this judgment, you do not get out. No resurrection from this judgment. In order to counter this argument you must produce a scripture that talks about the resurrection from this judgment please.”


Challenge answered: "1 Cor 15:22."Ah yes, one of the favorite Universalist proof-texts. Saddly, it is taken out of context so it proves nothing. Look at the entire passage for meaning.
[/quote]1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (New International Version)


20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.[/quote]
Note that verse 23 provides the rest of the story as to who who will rise with Christ. Only those that belong to Him will be raised with him. Keep your verse in complete context or don't use them. When we take verse out of context to prove our pet points we are perverting God's word and God does not appreciate that.


And I answer your challenge in the same way, because I see no reason whatsoever to understand the judgment which John describes in Revelation 20 as being of a different nature than that which Ezekiel describes, above. We the Bible sure draws a distinction between them. One is in the OT and is dealing directly with Israel's continued disobedience to God. Revelations deals with the end of the Net Covenant if you will. It says very clearly that the dead are raised and judged.





I don’t read anything in the book of Hebrews about those not entering God’s rest “never again” being allowed into God's "presence.” Again, you seem to be reading things into the text that simply aren’t there, in order to substantiate your arguments.So never doesn't mean never with you.
But even if it could be inferred from the text that the unbelievers of which the book of Hebrews speaks could never be allowed into God’s presence, how does this in any way support your doctrine of endless, post-mortem punishment? We’re told that Cain “went away from the presence of the LORD” after God cursed him to be a fugitive and wanderer on the earth (Gen 4:13-16); we’re told that Jonah fled from the presence of the LORD when he went to Joppa (Jonah 1:3); and in 2 Kings 24:20 (cf. 13:24) we’re told that the people of Jerusalem and Judah were cast out from the presence of the LORD because of their wickedness. All three examples pertain to this life. And what if, in all three examples, they were never allowed back into the same "presence of the LORD" from which they fled, or were banished? What then? We're not told; but there's no reason to think that it had (or has) anything to do with their's or anyone else's post-mortem fate. Jhona and Israel repented and were allowed to return. We don't know what happened to Cain. Repentance is possible and is God's plan. But if there is no repentance you die in a state of rebellion. Hebrews does say this:
Hebrews 9:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=9&verse=27&version=31&context=verse)
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
You die once and then judgment. Not a second chance, judgment.

Boxmaker, I'm afraid that there is nothing you’ve said that would convince any thinking person that the blessing of “rest” which the unbelievers spoken of in the book of Hebrews are never allowed to enjoy or experience is a post-mortem salvation that is from endless suffering. You simply assume it without proof. Once again, your entire argument begs the question, which is no argument at all. I think you will find you are greatly mistaken about what any thinking person will conclude. There are far more people that understand hell/lake of fire are real and eternal than believe in a fairy tail of God will bring everybody to heaven eventually. The Bible is clear on the concept. The parables teach of hell being final. Jesus speak directly to the issue and talks of eternal rewards and punishment. Universalism falls apart when the favorite proof texts used to support it are taken in context.


In other words, are you saying that “forever and ever” is merely a hyperbolic, or idiomatic expression that means “for an endless, unceasing duration of time”? If that’s what you mean, do you have any proof of this? Hyperbole is not unprecedented in the Bible. Jesus used it Himself when He said that to follow Him you must hate everybody else in your life. Did Jesus mean we are to really hate everybody in our life when His whole ministry was about teaching us to love and serve those in our life? No. He was saying that to follow Him we must love Him in such a way as the love we show to others utterly pales in comparison. Hyperbole is used to emphasize points and forever and ever is one of those phrases.


The Greek reads as following: eis tous aionas ton aionon. Both "aionas" and "aionon" are in the plural. They are, in fact, plural forms of the Greek word "aion," which means “an indeterminate (not endless) period of time” – or simply, "an age.” The Zondervan Parallel NT in Greek and Englishtranslates the phrase in the following way: “unto the ages of the ages” (compare with Young’s Literal Translation andRotherham's Emphasized Bible). Look closely at what you just said. First you sad an age is an indeterminate period of time. In the plural, ages would successive periods of indeterminate duration. Then ages of ages becomes an indeterminate number of indeterminate periods of time. Sounds like hyperbole that we all ready know is used in scripture.

What’s interesting is that the word aion appears in other expressions similar to this one in other parts of the New Testament. In Ephesians 3:21, the word appears in the singular form first and then in the plural (aionos ton aionon, or “age of the ages”). In Hebrews 1:8, it is in the singular form both times (aiona tou aionos, or “age of the age”). And in the verse under consideration, it is in the plural form both times (aionas ton aionon, or “ages of the ages”).
Do you believe these are all “slang” expressions in the Greek that essentially mean, “for an endless, unceasing duration of time”? Do you have any proof of this?From what I know of Greek, the meaning of some words must be derived from the sentence in which they are used. Given that Hebrews 1:8 says 8But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
then I would have to conclude that the intention of write is to state that God is eternal. If you do not agree then you do not agree that God is eternal. If you do not agree that God is eternal then I would be forced to conclude that you do not believe in God.



It means “during an age.” There is no perfect English equivalent to the adjective forms of the noun, aion (aionion, aioniou, aionios, which are simply different inflections of the adjective), so “age-during” is just one attempt at translating it. Some Greek scholars believe it more accurately means “belonging to an age,” as opposed to “during an age.” In either case, it is a fact that the adjective simply pertains to the noun. Again, just as monthly pertains to a month, and yearly pertains to a year, so aionion pertains to an aion. An “age” (aion) is simply an indefinite measure of time, and the adjective of “age” is simply “that which pertains to an age,” or which pertains to an indefinite period of time.

So using the literal English translation is just a way for the Universalist believer to deny the teachings of Christ. It allows the universalist believer to ignore the context of the original writer and replace it with one of their own creation that allows them to believe something about God that is not supported by scripture.

Scripture is clear. Jesus Himself said life and punishment after His judgment are eternal. Revelations shows us that the dead are raised and judged.

[Boxmaker]

I did not miss your point. But you do seem to have missed mine. If the kingdom of heaven of which Christ speaks here is something entirely confined to this world (and there is nothing in Jesus’ words that indicates otherwise), then the fact that some people never enter it makes no difference as far as their post-mortem destiny is concerned.

You assume that the kingdom of heaven refers to a post-mortem salvation. I deny this, and demand proof of it. You have not proven or attempted to prove that the kingdom of heaven of which Christ speaks here is something entered after one dies, or is something that must be entered in order to be saved after one dies. You have simply assumed that this is the case, and that those who never enter the kingdom of heaven are doomed after they die. But where does scripture say or even imply this? Matthew 25 and Revelations 20 deal directly with this. You have the proof in front of you and, by tour won admission, you deny it.


Scripture doesn’t even say anything about our having “a chance to accept Jesus” before we die; why would it say anything about our having “a chance to accept Jesus” after we die? So in answer to your challenge, I can produce no such scripture, because scripture does not say that anyone is saved after death by being given "a chance to accept Jesus," either before or after they die.
What do you thin Acts is about? It is all about the Apostles going to unbelievers and sharing the Gospel with them. There are many verse in Acts where it says many heard the word and were baptized. They were baptized as believers because they accepted Christs gift of salvation. Acts is all about accepting Christ here and now because there is no second chance after you die. For men die once and then face judgment. They face judgment.

[Boxmaker]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (New International Version)

The Coming of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

I found it interesting that your favorite passage of scripture does not support a Universal Salvation interpretation of scripture. Fallen asleep in Christ, dead in Christ. No mention of the everybody being swept into salvation, only those in Christ. You must believe in Christ as your Lord and Savior before you fall asleep (die) to be counted as one of those asleep in Christ.

[thelasttrumpet]

Here is your "proof". (I hate proof texting but these two verse answer your question about judgment.
Quote:
Revelation 20:12-13 (New International Version)

Quote:

12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.


The dead are judged in these verse, not the living. Matthew 25 is Jesus speaking directly about the results of that judgment.


Boxmaker, in order for me to explain these much-misunderstood verses to you, I must first lay out some rather lengthy preliminary information on the book of Revelation itself. I hope you won’t mind. In doing so, I will also attempt to explain the scriptural meaning of the phrase “second death” and “lake of fire.”
Alright, here goes…deep breath :)

The Revelation of Jesus Christ was written by the apostle John a few years before the destruction of Jerusalem. All of the internal evidence points to a pre-70 AD dating (see, for example, Rev. 11:1-2 and compare with Luke 21:20-24), and all the extra-biblical evidence regarding the dating of the book is essentially hear-say from one or two "church fathers" that is pretty ambiguous, and thus subjectto more than one interpretation. While the popular dating of the book today among evangelicals is a post-70 AD dating (around 96 AD), it is important to realize that there has never been a scholarly consensus on when it was written (give me ten NT scholars that date the book after 70 AD, and I can give ten that date it prior to 70 AD). But again, the internal evidence of the book is, for me, the most conclusive evidence for when it was written. If you're interested in learning more, I highly recommend the book Before Jerusalem Fell for a much more in-depth analysis of the book’s proper dating. Last time I checked, this book could be read online.

Revelation concerns the commencement of Christ’s reign (his "coming in his kingdom"), and those cataclysmic events which led up to this event (which corresponds with Christ’s “Olivet discourse” found in the synoptic gospels). John sets the context and timeframe for the entire book in chapter 1, verse 7, where he writes, "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn on account of him." Who were these “tribes of the earth (or "land")” who would be grieving over Christ? To answer this question, we need only look to Zechariah 12:10-14:

'And I will pour out on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and prayers. And they (i.e., the inhabitants of Jerusalem) shall look on me whom they have pierced, and shall mourn for him. As one mourns, for an only son, and will be bitter over him like the bitterness over the firstborn. In that day (i.e., when they look on Him whom they had pierced) the mourning in Jerusalemwill be great, like the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, families by families alone; the family of the house of David alone, and their wives alone; the family of Nathan alone, and their wives alone; the family of the house of Levi alone, and their wives alone; the family of Shimei alone, and their wives alone; all the families who are left, family by family alone, and their wives alone."

The Hebrew word for “family” is mishpachah. It means a family, tribe or people group. The family or “tribes” to which John is referring were the twelve tribes of Israel ("the inhabitants of Jerusalem"). This also helps us identify the “land” (or "earth") in Rev. 1:7. According to Zechariah, the “land” is the land of Judea (specifically, Jerusalem). Also, it is those tribes (i.e., the people of Israel) who, at his coming, would look on the One whom they had pierced. And because of that, “the mourning in Jerusalem” would be great.

As apocalyptic literature, the book of Revelation is full of highly figurative and symbolic visions, and concerns events that were, at the time of John’s writing, “soon to take place” (see Rev 1:1, 3; 22:20, etc.). It concerns Daniel’s people, the Jews, in the last days of the old covenant, leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem (Dan 9:26-27) and the “shattering of the power of the holy people” (Dan 12:7), which was the event signifying that the universal reign of the Messiah– the “One like a Son of man” (Dan 7:13) - had begun. This was our Lord's "coming in his kingdom."

The angel Gabriel even told Daniel to “shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end” (Dan 12:4). But the heavenly messenger who spoke to the apostle John told him the exact opposite of what Gabriel told Daniel: “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near” (Rev 22:10). Thus, what was still in the distant future in Daniel’s day had become “near” by the time John received his visions. Daniel prophesied about 600 years before the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. If Daniel’s prophecy was sealed up because the events were 600 years distant, and if the prophecy in Revelation was not allowed to be sealed because the time of its fulfillment was at hand, is it at all reasonable to suppose it is yet future, after nearly 2000 years have passed? No, it’s not.

[thelasttrumpet]

So, in the 70 AD judgment that fell upon Israel, Jesus was fully revealed to Daniel’s people (the Jews) as their Messiah. The place of this revealing was Jerusalem. This revealing was to those who had pierced Him (i.e., the Jews). This is a reference to Christ’s contemporary generation. It is this generation that was judged by God in A.D. 70 for rejecting and murdering their own Messiah (see Matt. 24:34; cf. Matt. 26:36; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42 and 45; Luke 11:50-51; 17:25; Mark 8:38, etc.).

"Every eye" in the land of Judea saw Christ “coming on the clouds of heaven” in the same sense that Jewish religious leaders (to whom Christ spoke during his trial) saw him (Matt 26:64). Caiaphas and the others certainly didn't understand Christ to be saying that one day they’d be glancing out of their windows and see Christ riding around on a cumulous. Instead, they understood Jesus claiming to be Israel’s Messiah - the divine "Son of Man" spoken of in Daniel 7:13-14. And that, of course, infuriated them.

This “final judgment” upon Israel is referred to as "the second death." But where are we told that this would be a post-mortem judgment? Nowhere. This national judgment against Israel is called the “second death” because it was to be the second national death of the Jewish people. The first national death was the judgment God executed upon Israel through the Babylonians circa 586 BC, and this national death lasted about 70 years. We find God threatening this divine judgment in chapter 18 of Ezekiel’s prophecy, where we read:

"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."

Later, God refers to this first “death” of the Jewish nation (the Babylonian captivity) in the well-known vision of the dry bones:

"Then he said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off.' Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." (Ezekiel 371 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Ezekiel+371)1-14).

So, the Babylonian captivity was the “first death,” during which time the whole house of Israel was said to be (figuratively speaking) dead and in their graves. The “second death” was God's judgment of Israel through the instrumentality of the Romans, which culminated in the total destruction of the city of Jerusalem and the desolation of the Temple (incidentally, the Jewish era of Jesus’ day is referred to as “Second Temple Judaism”).
This judgment is also called the “lake of fire,” which brings to mind those OT passages in which national judgment against Israel is said to be with fire. The entire city of Jerusalem itself became the "lake of fire" in 70 A.D. when the Jewish nation was judged for their unfaithfulness for God, and especially for the heinous sin of rejecting and murdering their Messiah. In Isaiah 31:9, God says his “fire is in Zion” and his “furnace is in Jerusalem.” This is exactly what happened to Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The entire city became like a fiery furnace, or a “lake of fire.” In Ezekiel, we read the following:

“Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because you have all become dross, therefore, behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As one gathers silver and bronze and iron and lead and tin into a furnace, to blow the fire on it in order to melt it, so I will gather you in my anger and in my wrath, and I will put you in and melt you. I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of my wrath, and you shall be melted in the midst of it.”

Again, this is exactly what happened to the unrighteous people of Israel at this time. Those who rejected Christ and did not heed his words to flee the land when the time came (Matt 24:15-21; Mark 13:14-19; Luke 21:20-24) were consequently trapped within the city (Luke 19:41-44) and slain in this awful judgment. Josephus informs us that most of the dead bodies were burned, along with much of the city. This judgment is said to be one of “fire and sulfur.” Well, all good students of the Old Testament know that “fire and sulfur” is an emblem of earthly judgment upon the unrighteous – especially that of wicked nations (Gen 19:24 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Gen+19%3A24); Job 18:15 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Job+18%3A15); Psalm 11:6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Psalm+11%3A6); Isaiah 30:33 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Isaiah+30%3A33); 34:9-10; Eze 38:22 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Eze+38%3A22)).

[thelasttrumpet]

Now, back to the passage you provided in proof of the doctrine of post-mortem punishment.

The entire scene of Revelation 20:11-15 is simply a more climactic description of the judgment already mentioned in Revelation 6:12-17 - it's a "recapulation." Notice that in both passages we find the heavens (the sky) and the earth (the land masses) being “removed” (which is simply figurative, prophetic imagery that signifies the violent overthrow of a nation). Notice also that in both passages we have all different classes of people: in Rev 6:15 we read of “the kings of the earth, the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful,” which corresponds to “the great” in Rev 20:12. In chapter 6, “everyone, slave and free” corresponds to “the small” in chapter 20. Finally, we have the image of one “who is seated on the throne” in Rev 6:16, which corresponds to what we read in 20:11. Both chapters are simply different perspectives on the final overthrow of the Jewish nation in 70 AD. Jesus even applies language similar to what John uses in Rev 6:15-16 to the coming calamites upon the Jewish nation:

“Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, “Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!' Then they will begin to say to the mountains ‘Fall on us!’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us!’” (Luke 23:28-30 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Luke+23%3A28-30)).

The “dead” spoken of in Rev 20:12 are not the literally dead, but the morally/spiritually dead people of Israel of that “adulterous generation” – those who were, at the time of this first century judgment, “dead in their trespasses and sins.” They are “dead” in the same figurative sense that many members of the church in Sardis at that time were “dead” (Revelation 3:1). But perhaps you’ll insist that they are not figuratively dead, but literally dead, since John says he saw “death and hades” give them up unto judgment. Well, if you take that language literally, then you must also believe that the sea was also the literal abode of the dead, because John names it as a place from which they came as well. You must also believe that “death” and “hades” were literally cast into a literal “lake of fire.” So, unless you believe that the sea is one of the homes of “departed spirits,” and that “death” and “hades” were both literally cast into a literal lake of fire, then you will have to admit the absurdity of a strictly literal interpretation of this passage.

Or, perhaps you will argue that this is a depiction of the judgment following the resurrection, and that those standing before the throne have been raised immortal. If that’s the case, why then why does John call them “the dead?” At the literal resurrection of the dead, death is said to be “destroyed,” and “swallowed up in victory.” In the resurrection, the dead are “made alive in Christ,” and are thus no longer dead. But John says he saw “the dead” standing before the throne. In light of these several considerations, I believe the only reasonable interpretation is to see this as being a picture of neither the literal dead, nor of those who have been resurrected, but instead of those who (though were still alive physically) were dead in their transgressions and sins.Being thus spiritually dead, this exposed them to national death.

So what does John mean when he says that “the sea gave up the dead,” and that “death and hades delivered up the dead in them?” John is simply using Old Testament figurative language that would have been familiar to his first-century Jewish readers. In describing these spiritually dead people as being delivered up by the sea, death and hades, John is saying that nothing could screen the guilty Jewish nation from impending retributive judgment which God, in his sovereign counsel, had determined to bring upon them. Their national powers of darkness, and “spiritual wickedness in heavenly places,” were to be made manifest to all.

In Isaiah 28:15, we read of the people of Israel saying, "We have made a covenant with death, and with sheol (or "hades") are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us; for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves."

Although they thus comforted themselves with their “refuge of lies” and hiding places of falsehood, it was ultimately a false sense of security, for their secret covenant partners, “death and hades,” still delivered them up to national destruction. For in verse 18 we read:

"Your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with sheol (hades) shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then shall ye be trodden down by it."

In other words, there was nothing they could do to protect or hide themselves from impending national judgment. Death and hades would not aide or protect them, but would instead give them up to destruction. God cannot be mocked; as a nation, their doom was inevitable.

In Amos 9:3, there is similar language to that which was in Isaiah:

"And though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence; and though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and he shall bite them."

The above language is not literal, but figurative. No one was literally hiding at the top of Mount Carmel, or hiding at the bottom of the sea. The language is used in reference to the living, who, as in Isaiah, are represented as hiding themselves under falsehood and lies - as taking refuge at "the bottom of the sea," and as making “a covenant with death and hades,” to protect them from national ruin. But it was all in vain, for, as John says, they were given up to judgment.

The “books” by which these people were judged represent the books of the Jewish Law, to which they had been unfaithful. Because they clung to their law instead of embracing Jesus as their Messiah, they were judged by the law. In seeking to live by the law, and receive their righteousness through the Law instead of in Christ, they were judged by the law (Rom 2:12, etc.), and the curses of the law fell upon them. Read Deuteronomy 28:49-57 very carefully for a detailed description of the culmination of the judgment God threatened to bring upon Israel for their unfaithfulness to his Law covenant (a judgment which happened to Israel, twice). Thus having been raised from their first death and returned to their land, their nation was ultimately destroyed by another Gentile people a second time. A majority of the Jewish population was killed in this judgment, and the rest were scattered among the nations (Deut 28:64; cf. Luke 21:20-24).

The “book of life” signifies the Gospel (through which Paul says Christ brought “life and immortality to light” – 2 Tim 1:10). Those who were “found” in the book of life were those Jews who believed on Christ and embraced the good news of his death and resurrection. Consequently, they were spared from the terrible judgment that came upon their unfaithful nation. They fled, according to the directions of Christ, to the mountains of Judea for safety, until the siege was over. And in this way their lives were spared, just as Christ promised them. We are told by the historian Josephus that not a single Christian perished in the destruction of Jerusalem. These Jewish believers were not "hurt by the second death."

[thelasttrumpet]

Until you can provide some meaningful definition of why never doesn't mean never and what an age-during means, I will accept Jesus's teaching that punishment and life after judgment is eternal. Ball is in your court.


It seems as if I haven’t made myself clear. Let me try again. I agree just as strongly as you do that “never” means “never” in Matthew 18:3. But unlike you, I believe that the kingdom of which Christ speaks is not a post-mortem reality. Instead, I understand it as being a this-world reality that can only be entered and enjoyed in this life. Thus, I agree whole-heartedly with you that many will never enter the kingdom of which Christ speaks. The same goes for the “Sabbath rest” which believers may enter. Many will never enter this rest due to unbelief. But because I understand this blessing that believers enjoy to be limited to this life alone, the fact that unbelievers miss out on the blessings of the kingdom in the here-and-now, and don’t enter into rest, doesn’t exclude them from future salvation after they die (which is in the resurrection, right before Christ delivers up the kingdom to God).

All this shows me is that you fail to see a difference between the Old Covenant with Moses and the New Covenant with Jesus. In the old testament God was dealing with Israel. In the new testament, God is dealing with men, jew and gentile. Ezekiel is talking about God dealing with the nation of Israel during the OT and God's plan for Israel in the OT. All those OT prophesies have been fulfilled and we are now under a New Covenant that was established by the spilling of Christ's blood for the forgiveness of our sins.


As explained earlier, I believe the judgment which John is describing in Revelation is that which brought the old covenant dispensation to a close. Again, it was the second death of the nation of Israel.


Ah yes, one of the favorite Universalist proof-texts. Saddly, it is taken out of context so it proves nothing. Look at the entire passage for meaning.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (New International Version)

20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.


Note that verse 23 provides the rest of the story as to who who will rise with Christ. Only those that belong to Him will be raised with him. Keep your verse in complete context or don't use them. When we take verse out of context to prove our pet points we are perverting God's word and God does not appreciate that.


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