Accept

[LilLamb219]

Do we really "accept" for salvation? Or is accepting something that can only be done after given faith by the Holy Spirit, meaning saved already and not dependent upon anything that comes from us?

Lutherans do not believe that WE contribute to our salvation. All the glory goes to God who saves us without our permission and saves us 100% without our help. There is a term called synergism.

Lutherans do not believe in synergism. Here is what the Christian Cyclopedia says concerning the term:

Synergism (http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/display.asp?t1=S&word=SYNERGISM) (from Gk. (http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/abbrev.asp?abbrev=ABBR.GK) synergeo, “to work with”). In religious context the term refers to the concept of man cooperating with God in his own conversion.* (http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/display.asp?t1=c&word=CONVERSION) The concept of synergism developed out of an attempt to solve an apparent contradiction. Scripture teaches the native corruption of man (Jn 3:6), that God provided all-inclusive redemption (Eze 33:11; Jn 3:16; 2 Co 5:19; 1 Ti 2:4), and that man is saved by faith (Mk 16:16; Gl 3:11).
Three views have been held regarding the “how” of conversion: (1) God alone brings man to faith; (2) man unilaterally decides to believe; (3) man cooperates with God (God begins, man completes conversion; or vice versa). Gen. (http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/abbrev.asp?abbrev=ABBR.GEN) speaking, the synergistic view holds that man is by nature not altogether spiritually dead and that some resist God's call to faith less violently than others.
The synergistic view rests on such arguments as these: (1) if one can do nothing in his conversion, he will become careless and fatalistic; (2) the call to repent (Mk 1:15; Acts 2:38) implies power to repent; (3) if man is entirely passive, conversion is mechanical; (4) God makes conversion possible, man makes it real; (5) since man can hinder conversion (Mt 23:37; Lk 7:30) he can also cooperate in it; (6) ability to resist implies ability to cease resisting.
Scripture teaches that man is by nature spiritually dead (Jn 5:24; Eph 2:1) and antagonistic to spiritual things (Ro 8:7–8; 1 Co 2:14) and that man is saved by God's grace, not by works (Eph 2:8–10). Whatever synergism there is, in the proper sense of the term, follows conversion and is a result of God's monergism in man's conversion (Jn 6:44, 63–65; Ro 9:16; 2 Co 4:6; 5:17; 6:1; Eph 4:24; Cl 1:13). EMP

[IowaLutheran]

Agreed. We do not "decide for Christ" or "choose for Christ" on our own willpower. The Holy Spirit has moved within us to allow us to receive God's grace and not reject it.

[LilLamb219]

Well....as long as we don't start believing in once saved, always saved, because man can reject.

[Luther073082]

"God desires all to be saved" The key word there is saved. . .

If God desires all to be SAVED then he can not withhold salvation for some but not others.

I'm sorry if you think beliveing in Arminianism doesn't make me Lutheran but I see Lutheran in a larger sense as beiving in the basis which Luther set down.

http://www.challies.com/archives/articles/an-introduction-2.php

And Luther's views are in effect the same as Calvinism as much as you may deny it. God chooses some and not others. And if God desires all to be saved that is not possible.


Well....as long as we don't start believing in once saved, always saved, because man can reject.

No I don't belive in that, rejecting Christ destroys your salvation. In all likelyhood I view it as if someone dies in faith or not.

[LilLamb219]

Uhh...have you read much of what Luther has written?

[IowaLutheran]

Well....as long as we don't start believing in once saved, always saved, because man can reject.

Correct. We can receive the Holy Spirit and not reject it at one point in time, and then reject it later - no OSAS.

[Melethiel]

And I get to do my usual round of posting from the BoC. :P
I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

[IowaLutheran]

"God desires all to be saved" The key word there is saved. . .

If God desires all to be SAVED then he can not withhold salvation for some but not others.

I'm sorry if you think beliveing in Arminianism doesn't make me Lutheran but I see Lutheran in a larger sense as beiving in the basis which Luther set down.

http://www.challies.com/archives/articles/an-introduction-2.php

And Luther's views are in effect the same as Calvinism as much as you may deny it. God chooses some and not others. And if God desires all to be saved that is not possible.



No I don't belive in that, rejecting Christ destroys your salvation. In all likelyhood I view it as if someone dies in faith or not.

I'm denying that Luther and Calvin believed the same thing because I have read quite a bit about this in my seminary classes this past 9 months and my professors have described a definite difference between Lutheran and Calvinist theology.



In a nutshell = Luther believed God, through Christ and the cross, makes salvation available for all. Humans still have free will to the extent that we can reject that salvation, however. God, because of his all-powerful and all-knowing nature, has foreknowledge of what will happen, but he does not choose some and not others as if we are pawns in a chess game.

Calvinist theology is that God does predestine (or "choose" as you put it) some to be saved and some not to be - there is no free will whatsoever. I think that is what the "irresistible grace" part of TULIP means. If you are part of the elect, you have no power to resist God's grace. Lutherans do not believe that - we do have free will to the extent that we can resist that grace.

So, there is a very real difference between Lutheran and Calvinist theology on this subject.

[Luther073082]

Uhh...have you read much of what Luther has written?

Well he's written a lot but I'm going just off of scripture here. Luther's words I consider to be words of wisdom from a wise man. They do not necessarily reflect the truth every single time.


Ok I'm going through the scriptures citied

[quote=John]61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206&version=31#fen-NIV-26310e)] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

The father enables us by giving us all the gifts of salvation. The sacraments and the Eucharist. God also enables us to choose him. It does not indicate that God chooses whom he will go to, only that he will enable those to come to Jesus. The father enables all by providing these gifts. However we always have to remember that it is the father that enables us to be saved. However not the choosen but everyone.

Also I want to add that I was reading and Arminianism says that faith is a gift from man to God. I disagree with that point as faith is the simple act of grabbing onto the life presever thrown out to us by God. Thats a gift to ourselves.

In a nutshell = Luther believed God, through Christ and the cross, makes salvation available for all. Humans still have free will to the extent that we can reject that salvation, however. God, because of his all-powerful and all-knowing nature, has foreknowledge of what will happen, but he does not choose some and not others as if we are pawns in a chess game.

Well then nevermind because Luther and I agree. God of course KNOWS who is going to accept and who will reject. However I belive the holy spirit moves in all, its just their choice to pay attention or ignore. But of course God already knows who is going to do what.

[LilLamb219]

When there is talk of Lutheran terminology or "other", it really does make a difference on how you say things to get your point across. If someone comes to the board and says he/she accepted Christ into his/her heart and is saved, it's not something Lutherans believe for salvation since WE don't do anything for our salvation.

And, if someone comes in to TCL and says that and claims to be a Lutheran, he/she WILL be corrected and given the reasons why. It's not bashing a person, it's not hazing, it's not being arrogant, it's giving the truth in love.

[LilLamb219]

God also enables us to choose him.

Enables...but the choice does not make our salvation at all. It's an effect of salvation.

John 15:16 You did not choose Me but I chose you...

[LilLamb219]

Well he's written a lot but I'm going just off of scripture here. Luther's words I consider to be words of wisdom from a wise man. They do not necessarily reflect the truth every single time.

You're right in that Luther wasn't correct all the time in his writings. It's just that you referred to his writings for pre-destination, but you were off in what Luther actually believed concerning it, that's why I asked if you had read much of him.

[Luther073082]

Enables...but the choice does not make our salvation at all. It's an effect of salvation.

John 15:16 You did not choose Me but I chose you...


Ok I came to a clearer understanding. . .

From my previous readings it seemed like Luther belived that God enabled some but not others to accept him. Which I can not possibly belive. . .

However God also knows WHO is going to do what. Therefor I still accepted Christ because I stopped ignoring the holy spirt. Not because God decided I'm gonna save Kirk but not his family. My family is choosing to ignore the holy spirit.

[LilLamb219]

However God also knows WHO is going to do what. Therefor I still accepted Christ because I stopped ignoring the holy spirt. Not because God decided I'm gonna save Kirk but not his family. My family is choosing to ignore the holy spirit.

What do you mean "God also know WHO is going to do what"??? We don't DO anything for our salvation. It's not dependent upon us, our actions, our choosing our acceptance. We believe because God gives us faith in order to believe. Accepting anything is an effect of faith...not something that gets us anything. God doesn't wait for us to DO something before he saves us. That's the great thing about it!

God didn't wait for Lazarus to accept life again when he died, but Jesus told Lazarus to come out (alive and walking of course) and that's what happened.

[KEPLER]

Luther######, (please trust me when I say that my tone of voice is one f meek instruction right now, OK? Just hear me out.)

You are using the vain philosophy of men (Col 2:8) to try to solve a paradox which Scripture does not solve. Let's take a look at what the Scriptures say:

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Logic seems to dictate that these two verses can be reconciled in only one of two ways. Either:

1) God chooses who follows Him, and thus, those who don't follow Him were not chosen.
or
2) God desires all to be saved, and thus those who follow Him did so of their own free will.

Historically, various groups have chosen either one or the other of these two solutions. Strict Augustinians and Calvinists opt for choice #1, while the vast majority of Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and modern evangelicalism opts for choice #2.

Lutherans explicitly and consciously choose neither. We don't solve the conundrum. We (to use Luther's famous words) "let God be God."

We absolutely affirm that no one is saved but by the Grace of God, not of anything of our own doing (accepting). But we DENY the converse: to wit, we deny that anyone goes to hell because of God's decree or inaction.

We absolutely affirm that people go to hell becasue of their conscious decisions (i.e., of their own free will). However, we DENY the converse, to wit, that people follow God of their own free will.

But that question of, "why some and not others?" is NOT a question which Scripture answers. Period.

Lutheran theology is built upon such paradoxes. How can we live through dying? How can it be both bread and Christ's body? How are some saved while others lost?

To solve this question -- in either direction -- is to cease to be Lutheran.

Cheers,

Kepler

[IowaLutheran]

Logic seems to dictate that these two verses can be reconciled in only one of two ways. Either:

1) God chooses who follows Him, and thus, those who don't follow Him were not chosen.
or
2) God desires all to be saved, and thus those who follow Him did so of their own free will.

Historically, various groups have chosen either one or the other of these two solutions. Strict Augustinians and Calvinists opt for choice #1, while the vast majority of Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and modern evangelicalism opts for choice #2.

Lutherans explicitly and consciously choose neither. We don't solve the conundrum. We (to use Luther's famous words) "let God be God."

We absolutely affirm that no one is saved but by the Grace of God, not of anything of our own doing (accepting). But we DENY the converse: to wit, we deny that anyone goes to hell because of God's decree or inaction.

We absolutely affirm that people go to hell becasue of their conscious decisions (i.e., of their own free will). However, we DENY the converse, to wit, that people follow God of their own free will.

But that question of, "why some and not others?" is NOT a question which Scripture answers. Period.

Lutheran theology is built upon such paradoxes. How can we live through dying? How can it be both bread and Christ's body? How are some saved while others lost?

To solve this question -- in either direction -- is to cease to be Lutheran.

Cheers,

Kepler


Brilliant!

[Luther073082]

We absolutely affirm that no one is saved but by the Grace of God, not of anything of our own doing (accepting). But we DENY the converse: to wit, we deny that anyone goes to hell because of God's decree or inaction.

We absolutely affirm that people go to hell becasue of their conscious decisions (i.e., of their own free will). However, we DENY the converse, to wit, that people follow God of their own free will.

But that question of, "why some and not others?" is NOT a question which Scripture answers. Period.

Lutheran theology is built upon such paradoxes. How can we live through dying? How can it be both bread and Christ's body? How are some saved while others lost?

To solve this question -- in either direction -- is to cease to be Lutheran.

Cheers,

Kepler

But one can only be saved by following God. And there are only two choices heaven and hell.

Therefore how can we be unable to choose to follow God. (IE God choose his followers) but the inaction of God does not send people to hell but their own choices.

If God is not sending people to hell by his inaction it is their actions/inactions that send them to hell. However if the only way to go to heaven is to follow God and God chooses his followers how is it possible that God did not choose them to go to hell his inaction?

I mean I understand God does not always follow the human logic of justice but how can God defy the logic of A=B, B=C then A=C. You are saying A=B, B=C but A does not equal C.

Lutheran theology is built upon such paradoxes. How can we live through dying? How can it be both bread and Christ's body?

We live by dying to the world and sin. The Eucharist is Christs bread and body by the spirit of Christ which moves within it.

[KEPLER]

I mean I understand God does not always follow the human logic of justice but how can God defy the logic of A=B, B=C then A=C. You are saying A=B, B=C but A does not equal C.

Saith the Apostle:
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.


You're trying to solve the problem. You don't get to do that; it's not your place. (Or mine, or anyone else's.)

"Let God be God."


K

[DaRev]

Somehwere on another thread I gave an analogy about a boy getting a bicycle for his birthday. I don't remember which thread and quite frankly I don't have time to hunt for it, but some of y'all may remember it.

The point of the whole thing, though, is that faith and salvation is given to all people (John 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:3-4). We have it already. Thus, we do not have to "accept" what we already possess. Those who are "saved" are so because they have been made aware of this gift from God, His grace, His choosing and accepting us. Thus our "part" is passive.
Those who are not "saved" either have actively rejected God's gift, or they have not yet been made aware of the fact they possess it. Like the kid and the bicycle, if he rejects it or if he doesn't know he has it he doesn't benefit from it.

Thus we do not "accept". The fact is we don't have to "accept" something that we already possess.

[Luther073082]

Ok I think I'm getting somewhat of a picture now.

Already knowing who will accept Christ, God provides his grace to those people.

But because God already knows who will reject him he has not provided his grace to those people because they don't need it anyways because if he did provide it to them, they would reject it.

[LilLamb219]

nope

[DaRev]

Ok I think I'm getting somewhat of a picture now.

Already knowing who will accept Christ, God provides his grace to those people.

But because God already knows who will reject him he has not provided his grace to those people because they don't need it anyways because if he did provide it to them, they would reject it.

No. He gives it to ALL people. He doesn't withhold it from anyone. He may very well know who will reject it, but that doesn't mean that He hasn't given that gift to them anyway. They can't reject what they haven't been given. We can't say that He withholds it from anyone. The Scriptures do not support that at all.

[LilLamb219]

You keep placing too much importance upon us and our decision. That's not how God operates.

[Melethiel]

Ok I think I'm getting somewhat of a picture now.

Already knowing who will accept Christ, God provides his grace to those people.

But because God already knows who will reject him he has not provided his grace to those people because they don't need it anyways because if he did provide it to them, they would reject it.
Er...no. That's reading things into Scripture where it is simply silent.

[QuiltAngel]

In another thread you wrote:
But then is God not accepting of everyone, its just that some fail to realize it?

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world for all time, for everyone. I think God grieves when someone dies and does not believe. As far as those who don't believe, He is there working on them, that person is turning a deaf ear to him, won't listen. Hardens his own heart against God. They just fail to realize that God is there.

As far as your parents and others that many of us know, yes, they don't realize the greatness, the goodness, of God's saving grace. What is in their way, may be different for each person. I am sure that for those of us who know someone who does not believe, we have told them of God's salvation. We hurt and ache for them, think of how much more that is for God. We continue to pray for them. Pray that they will allow God to soften their heart to the point they can hear Him and believe Him.

As far as we accepting Christ, I tend to say something like "make a confession of Christ." That they believe what they have heard.

[KEPLER]

Ok I think I'm getting somewhat of a picture now.

Already knowing who will accept Christ, God provides his grace to those people.

But because God already knows who will reject him he has not provided his grace to those people because they don't need it anyways because if he did provide it to them, they would reject it.
Uh, no. 2 Corinthians 5:19: "reconciling the world to Himself in Christ." World means world.

[Luther073082]

No. He gives it to ALL people. He doesn't withhold it from anyone. He may very well know who will reject it, but that doesn't mean that He hasn't given that gift to them anyway. They can't reject what they haven't been given. We can't say that He withholds it from anyone. The Scriptures do not support that at all.

Then I don't understand this at all??

Or is it written into a paradox to the point where Luther ultimetly says "We can't possibly understand it"

[KEPLER]

Then I don't understand this at all??

Or is it written into a paradox to the point where Luther ultimetly says "We can't possibly understand it"
Erm, yeah...that's kinda our position:

26] And of this we should not judge according to our reason, nor according to the Law or from any external appearance. Neither should we attempt to investigate the secret, concealed abyss of divine predestination, but should give heed to the revealed will of God. For He has made known unto us the mystery of His will, and made it manifest through Christ that it might be preached, Eph. 1, 9ff ; 2 Tim. 1, 9f.

[JimfromOhio]

Do we really "accept" for salvation? Or is accepting something that can only be done after given faith by the Holy Spirit, meaning saved already and not dependent upon anything that comes from us?

Lutherans do not believe that WE contribute to our salvation. All the glory goes to God who saves us without our permission and saves us 100% without our help. There is a term called synergism.

Lutherans do not believe in synergism. Here is what the Christian Cyclopedia says concerning the term:

Synergism (http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/display.asp?t1=S&word=SYNERGISM) (from Gk. (http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/abbrev.asp?abbrev=ABBR.GK) synergeo, “to work with”). In religious context the term refers to the concept of man cooperating with God in his own conversion.* (http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/display.asp?t1=c&word=CONVERSION) The concept of synergism developed out of an attempt to solve an apparent contradiction. Scripture teaches the native corruption of man (Jn 3:6), that God provided all-inclusive redemption (Eze 33:11; Jn 3:16; 2 Co 5:19; 1 Ti 2:4), and that man is saved by faith (Mk 16:16; Gl 3:11).
Three views have been held regarding the “how” of conversion: (1) God alone brings man to faith; (2) man unilaterally decides to believe; (3) man cooperates with God (God begins, man completes conversion; or vice versa). Gen. (http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/abbrev.asp?abbrev=ABBR.GEN) speaking, the synergistic view holds that man is by nature not altogether spiritually dead and that some resist God's call to faith less violently than others.
The synergistic view rests on such arguments as these: (1) if one can do nothing in his conversion, he will become careless and fatalistic; (2) the call to repent (Mk 1:15; Acts 2:38) implies power to repent; (3) if man is entirely passive, conversion is mechanical; (4) God makes conversion possible, man makes it real; (5) since man can hinder conversion (Mt 23:37; Lk 7:30) he can also cooperate in it; (6) ability to resist implies ability to cease resisting.
Scripture teaches that man is by nature spiritually dead (Jn 5:24; Eph 2:1) and antagonistic to spiritual things (Ro 8:7–8; 1 Co 2:14) and that man is saved by God's grace, not by works (Eph 2:8–10). Whatever synergism there is, in the proper sense of the term, follows conversion and is a result of God's monergism in man's conversion (Jn 6:44, 63–65; Ro 9:16; 2 Co 4:6; 5:17; 6:1; Eph 4:24; Cl 1:13). EMP

In my personal thoughts on this, we have to understand that somehow, mysteriously, within the framework of God, which I believe in, there is a place for human freewill which is whether they respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. One of the perfect examples of the "conviction" is Jesus' knocking in Revelatoin Revelation 3:20, Jesus said:
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Recognizing the Jesus voice is like a sheep recognizing the shepherd's voice. Only the Holy Spirit can prick a person's heart to cause a person to hear Christ's voice. Jesus said in John 10:14-15 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

Acts 10:44
[ The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles ] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.

Acts 15:7-9
Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith."

Galatians 3:2
This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

1 Thessalonians 1:5
For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance (conviction), as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.

I looked at LCMS's website and see this quote
As Jesus says in John 15:16: "You did not choose me; but I chose you...." Conversion is solely the work of the Holy Spirit: "No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3). What may appear to be a "decision" from a human perspective is actually the result of the work of the Holy Spirit through the power of the Gospel. (http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=4410)

It is my belief that our salvation is secured.I don't believe that we can lose our salvation, however, some are most likely were NOT saved in the first place. When a Christian who is saved by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, this Christian is living in a new Creature with holy conscience rather than sinful conscience. As a Christian, I still can have sinful desires, foolish desires, proud desires and at the same time, have godly desires. If we didn't feel the conviction and didn't have the motivation to change from "within", then we should be concerned whether we are truly saved or not. "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." The condition of the heart determines how receptive a person is to the gospel.

The Holy Spirit is the key. Faith comes as a result of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit-He quickens our hearts to believe. Apart from the new birth, there can be no true faith. Without the Holy Spirit, our faith and our works are NOTHING. Through the Holy Spirit, God's grace gave us the strength.

About not being saved in the first place, that could happen and that can happen. People can "play" Christians while their hearts deceives them. In a person's heart, if he or she truly did not accept Christ as their savior means they have rejected. Blasphemes against the Holy Spirit Luke 12:10 “And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven."

Salvation for Eternal Life is Guaranteed and here are my references:

Romans 2:29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

2 Corinthians 3:3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

2 Corinthians 1:22 set His seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

[JimfromOhio]

No. He gives it to ALL people. He doesn't withhold it from anyone. He may very well know who will reject it, but that doesn't mean that He hasn't given that gift to them anyway. They can't reject what they haven't been given. We can't say that He withholds it from anyone. The Scriptures do not support that at all.

This is one of my struggles as a "Calvinist". I am not a pure Calvinist. God will not hold me responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination, and the divine sovereignty.

Therefore, I will only say this: God loves everyone and offers salvation to EVERYONE.

You are either acknowledging the conviction of Holy Spirit or don't acknowledge the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, we NOT do have the "inability" to get saved. Without the Holy Spirit is TOTAL DEPRAVITY. The Holy Spirit is the only person that can quicken people to be saved. 1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. God has given the Holy Spirit to enable us to have a holy relationship with our Father.

[Luther073082]

Erm, yeah...that's kinda our position:

Well I disagree with Luther that we should try to understand it.

However I would agree that I think its probably too complex for us to get full and complete understanding of the "rules" of who is saved and who is not and how they come to be saved.

[JimfromOhio]

Uh, no. 2 Corinthians 5:19: "reconciling the world to Himself in Christ." World means world.

Yes...Adam and Eve spiritually died since God broke away the relationship with them and kicked them out of Garden of Eden. Death is universal spiritually and also by nature. All of us are born spiritual ignorant, not stupid. Through Adam, we are born spiritually dead. The nineteenth-century Scottish commentator John Eadie described it as a case of "death walking". Spiritually dead people are like zombies--they don't know they're dead and they're still going through the motions of living. Jesus was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed (reconciled with God). (Is 53)

Jesus came and preached peace to us who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit (Is. 57:19)

All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God (Eph. 2:17-18)

[JimfromOhio]

Well I disagree with Luther that we should try to understand it.

However I would agree that I think its probably too complex for us to get full and complete understanding of the "rules" of who is saved and who is not and how they come to be saved.

Luther's point of view or Calvin's point of view?

[LilLamb219]

A lot of what you are saying is not Lutheran doctrine and as much as we appreciate fellowship postings, we're trying to help our fellow Lutheran here understand what Lutherans believe according to scripture.


In my personal thoughts on this, we have to understand that somehow, mysteriously, within the framework of God, which I believe in, there is a place for human freewill which is whether they respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. One of the perfect examples of the "conviction" is Jesus' knocking in Revelatoin Revelation 3:20, Jesus said:
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Recognizing the Jesus voice is like a sheep recognizing the shepherd's voice. Only the Holy Spirit can prick a person's heart to cause a person to hear Christ's voice. Jesus said in John 10:14-15 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

Acts 10:44
[ The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles ] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.

Acts 15:7-9
Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith."

Galatians 3:2
This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

1 Thessalonians 1:5
For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance (conviction), as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.

I looked at LCMS's website and see this quote


It is my belief that our salvation is secured.I don't believe that we can lose our salvation, however, some are most likely were NOT saved in the first place. When a Christian who is saved by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, this Christian is living in a new Creature with holy conscience rather than sinful conscience. As a Christian, I still can have sinful desires, foolish desires, proud desires and at the same time, have godly desires. If we didn't feel the conviction and didn't have the motivation to change from "within", then we should be concerned whether we are truly saved or not. "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." The condition of the heart determines how receptive a person is to the gospel.

The Holy Spirit is the key. Faith comes as a result of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit-He quickens our hearts to believe. Apart from the new birth, there can be no true faith. Without the Holy Spirit, our faith and our works are NOTHING. Through the Holy Spirit, God's grace gave us the strength.

About not being saved in the first place, that could happen and that can happen. People can "play" Christians while their hearts deceives them. In a person's heart, if he or she truly did not accept Christ as their savior means they have rejected. Blasphemes against the Holy Spirit Luke 12:10 “And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven."

Salvation for Eternal Life is Guaranteed and here are my references:

Romans 2:29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

2 Corinthians 3:3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

2 Corinthians 1:22 set His seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

[RayJGentry]

I don't know that it's something we should be striving to understand. Luther (and everyone who has studied him) studied scripture and wrestled with this. I think that we should study it trying to see if we can see something that has been missed, but be willing to accept Luther's conclusion if we can't reconcile it. Now you can either believe Luther was wrong or after studying see that based on his and other's examination, is the right conclusion. I agree, that if you really study it, Luther didn't miss anything. Scripture really is rather silent on reconciling this. Therefore the conclusion must be that Scripture doesn't tell us....so we can't know, no matter how hard we would try.

[KEPLER]

Luther's point of view or Calvin's point of view?
Jim,

With all due respect (and PLEASE don't take this as a request to leave or anything), we are attempting here to get across the Lutheran understanding of conversion. I would ask that you not muddy the waters with other viewpoints for the time being. Later, in another thread, we can discuss the differences between Calvin and Luther, ok?

Cheers,

Kepler

[KEPLER]

I heart KEPLER and his beautiful words. Very well said. Thank you!

:blush:

[JimfromOhio]

A lot of what you are saying is not Lutheran doctrine and as much as we appreciate fellowship postings, we're trying to help our fellow Lutheran here understand what Lutherans believe according to scripture.

The first part regarding the Holy Spirit conforms with Lutheranism.

While the last part regarding (losing salvation) is my own before I learned of Calvinism doctrine.

I am not a pure calvinist but I always accepted Lutheran's views because the focus is leaving the "mysteries" of salvation to God alone.

[JimfromOhio]

Jim,

With all due respect (and PLEASE don't take this as a request to leave or anything), we are attempting here to get across the Lutheran understanding of conversion. I would ask that you not muddy the waters with other viewpoints for the time being. Later, in another thread, we can discuss the differences between Calvin and Luther, ok?

Cheers,

Kepler


If you go back to post #8,
I'm denying that Luther and Calvin believed the same thing because I have read quite a bit about this in my seminary classes this past 9 months and my professors have described a definite difference between Lutheran and Calvinist theology.

I was under the assumption that the poster was referring to.

[JimfromOhio]

Jim,

Later, in another thread, we can discuss the differences between Calvin and Luther, ok?

Cheers,

Kepler

Of course, this will help me understand better Lutheran's doctrine regarding salvation. :wave:

[KEPLER]

If you go back to post #8,


I was under the assumption that the poster was referring to.

Of course, this will help me understand better Lutheran's doctrine regarding salvation. :wave:

Jim,

Sorry for the misunderstanding and thanks for being so gracious while we try to get this across to our friend.

Pax Christi tibi,

Kepler

[JimfromOhio]

Jim,

Sorry for the misunderstanding and thanks for being so gracious while we try to get this across to our friend.

Pax Christi tibi,

Kepler

No problem. I am bowing out of this thread. :) :thumbsup:

[LilLamb219]

JimfromOhio is a cool guest, I look forward to reading the Calvin/Luther thread that Kepler suggested :)

[KEPLER]

JimfromOhio is a cool guest, I look forward to reading the Calvin/Luther thread that Kepler suggested :)
Agreed.

Now, where were we?

[Luther073082]

Well as I'm starting to understand this I will say that Calvin seems easier to understand as he is more definiate then Luther is.

The extremes are always easier to understand then the middle ground.

[LilLamb219]

But Lutherans believe that Calvin went further than scripture actually states, which is why we don't believe the same as Calvinists.

[KEPLER]

Well as I'm starting to understand this I will say that Calvin seems easier to understand as he is more definiate then Luther is.

The extremes are always easier to understand then the middle ground.
Yes, I can completely empathize with that. I came from Pentecostalism to Lutheranism, with Calvinism in between.

Calvinism is very "orderly" and systematic. In fact, the differences in between the two are very much reflected in the fact that while historical Calvin scholars have produced a plethora of "Systematic theologies", this has never been done for Lutheranism (Pieper's Christian Dogmatics comes the closest). Systematic is antithetical to the way Lutheran theology is done.

historically, we have used the loci method, which visually depicts how each particular doctrine (each locus, point or place) touches on every other doctrine. Calvinsts can (conceivably) talk about the Holy Spirit w/o ever mentioning the Sacraments, or the Ministry. Lutherans cannot: the doctrine of the Holy SPirit is intimately associated with the doctrines of the Sacraments and the Ministry (and others, to be sure).

To use a visual analogy, Calvinist theology is like a French Garden: neat and orderly, long, straight lines, well-defined curves, with everything in its place.
http://www.overthebrink.com/linderhof/IMG_1080.JPG
Lutheran theology is like an English Garden: no particular form, curving meandering paths, with everything growing into each other's space, all the plants intruding upon one another; frankly, a bit messy.
http://neighborsgo.beloblog.com/archives/garden.jpg

Meanwhile, back in the main point of the thread....

[BigNorsk]

Well as I'm starting to understand this I will say that Calvin seems easier to understand as he is more definiate then Luther is.

The extremes are always easier to understand then the middle ground.

You are sure right there. Calvin fills in blanks and makes everything so nice and orderly, other reformed theologians do the same.

But Luther stuck to sola Scriptura, not rationalizations or extrapolation of the hidden things of God.

And due to that, Luther's theology was not as easy to study and systematic.

I don't think Luther's understanding of predestination really is that God condemns someone. Indeed it's pretty clear that Luther taught a general atonement, that Christ died for the sins of the world not just the elect.

And God choses us and saves us and then we turn to him, or even then some turn away.

I look to the story of Exodus to show us so much about this. God chose the people of Israel. He led them out of Egypt, he openned the Red Sea, he promised them a land. They responded walking through the Sea at which time they received the baptism unto Moses. God had saved them from Egypt and they had "accepted" him.

Yet what happened? Many worshipped the golden calf, still they turned away from God. And so many perished in the wilderness.

Then they came to Jordan, again the people rejected God. They feared men rather than him, and so again they turned to the wilderness to perish.

Did God want them to worship the calf? I don't think that's supportable. Did God bring them out of Egypt to have them perish in the wilderness? I don't think that stands up either. God saved them and his intention was for them all to inherit the promised land. Yet along the way, many turned from him and so perished. In the end, the children received the promised land.

They received the promised land because God gave it to them. Those that did not receive it, did not receive it due to disbelief. They condemned themselves.

I think it's a really strong type of salvation and Christians, and I wouldn't want to go too far with it. But it does show us a glimpse of how things seem to work. Doesn't it seem almost unbelievable, when God had done so many miracles that the people would build a calf and call it their god? Doesn't it seem strange indeed when God had wiped out the powerful Egyptian army without the Israelites doing anything that they would then fear the people in the promised land? I find it so.

God offers the promised land to people and he makes it happen, yet he does not force them to receive it. They can still turn back and perish in the wilderness, they can still chose to worship other gods. But when they perish it is because they rejected God, not because he did not desire them to come to him, not because the penalties for their sins still remain, but because they rejected his offer.

If we are saved, it is because God saved us. If we are lost, it is because we condemned ourselves.

Marv

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Arminianism is a lie from the pits of hell and is against everything Luther taught.

Luther even thanked Erasmus at the beginning of The Bondage of the Will, in which he defended divine election against free choice in salvation, for skipping all the other annoying Reformation issues and getting straight to the heart of the matter.

The primacy of God in salvation is what the Reformation was all about it.

[IowaLutheran]

Arminianism is a lie from the pits of hell and is against everything Luther taught.



Don't hold back - tell us how you really feel. :P


Also, Kepler- I love the visual imagery!

[Luther073082]

Arminianism is a lie from the pits of hell and is against everything Luther taught.


I wouldn't go that hardcore about it. In my readings of it I especially didn't like it when it said "Faith is a gift from man to God."

But I don't like to go hardcore on other Christian's beliefs unless they are just completly and utterly blaphamous as to be complely unchristian.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I wouldn't go that hardcore about it. In my readings of it I especially didn't like it when it said "Faith is a gift from man to God."

But I don't like to go hardcore on other Christian's beliefs unless they are just completly and utterly blaphamous as to be complely unchristian.
But they are.

Paul in Galatians 1 anathematizes (curses) anyone who delivers a different gospel from the one he preaches.

And the gospel Paul preaches is mongeristic- the unlitaral grace of God to man that lacks any human cooperation.

Arminianism and Pietism are just a return to the errors of Catholicism in disguise.

[The Princess Bride]

Would someone mind clarifying some things for me? :wave:

Lutherans do not believe that WE contribute to our salvation. All the glory goes to God who saves us without our permission and saves us 100% without our help. There is a term called synergism.


1) Why is it believed that WE have do not "contribute" in our acceptance of Christ?
For if we had no choice, would not everyone by default be saved, as the Holy Spirit is present everywhere?

2) Does the Holy Spirit dwell within us already? Or is that something that comes with/after salvation?

3) If there is no such thing as "once saved, always saved" how can a person walk away from salvation which is a free gift?

4) If God saves us without our permission, why are we allowed to exhibit "free will" in other aspects of life, and why some do not "get saved"?

[DaRev]

Would someone mind clarifying some things for me?

1) Why is it believed that WE have no "choice" in our acceptance of Christ?
For if we had no choice, would not everyone by default be saved, as the Holy Spirit is present everywhere?

Scripture clearly teaches us that we, in no way, contribute to our salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us this. To "choose" or "accept" are active works for us. We are incapable of "choosing" or "accepting" God because of our sinful condition. God certainly knows this, thus He has made the "choice" for us. Jesus said, "You have not chosen Me, I have chosen you."

2) Does the Holy Spirit dwell within us already? Or is that something that comes with/after salvation?

While it is the Holy Spirit that affects faith in us, we receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism.


3) If there is no such thing as "once saved, always saved" how can a person walk away from salvation which is a free gift?

If you had read my bicycle analogy (I forget which thread its in and I'm too tired to hunt for it) or the high school Bible study lesson I described earlier, you can see that while it is God who has done the work for our salvation, thus we have nothing to contribute to it, we still, because of our sinful human nature, have the ability to reject it.

[The Princess Bride]

What about the verse...(escapes me atm...) where it says we must CONFESS from our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in our heart God raised Him from the dead, only then we will be saved. Doesnt that require an action on our part in cooperation with the will of God?

I believe we are all chosen by God, by we can choose to reject Him. Hell wasnt made for people, but because there are those who will not choose Him, they will go there as well.

[Luther073082]

Would someone mind clarifying some things for me? :wave:

Ok forgive me for I'm just comming to understand these things myself so don't take my word over more authorative words but here is how I understand it.


1) Why is it believed that WE have do not "contribute" in our acceptance of Christ?
For if we had no choice, would not everyone by default be saved, as the Holy Spirit is present everywhere?

Basically we do not choose Christ as Christ gives his grace out to everyone. However we can choose to reject christ which sends us to hell. Therefore, we can not choose to accept Christ, but only to reject him.


2) Does the Holy Spirit dwell within us already? Or is that something that comes with/after salvation?

The Holy spirit dwells in all. Unbelivers choose to ignore it.


3) If there is no such thing as "once saved, always saved" how can a person walk away from salvation which is a free gift?

I think you misunderstand "once saved, always saved" If I am saved once through beliving in Christ but then later reject Christ, I am no longer saved. Because I have rejected the salvation given to me.

Therefore I am only saved as long as I continue to realize the Holy Spirit's work of faith within me.


4) If God saves us without our permission, why are we allowed to exhibit "free will" in other aspects of life, and why some do not "get saved"?

Those who are not saved have activly rejected God's grace which he gives to all. In a sense God does not save us "without our permission" because we can choose to reject it. However we make no choice to accept the grace as it is already there, we only come to realize it.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken on any of this.

[DaRev]

What about the verse...(escapes me atm...) where it says we must CONFESS from our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in our heart God raised Him from the dead, only then we will be saved. Doesnt that require an action on our part in cooperation with the will of God?

I believe we are all chosen by God, by we can choose to reject Him. Hell wasnt made for people, but because there are those who will not choose Him, they will go there as well.

There is also the verse that says "No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit." Which means that God has to have acted upon us first. We don't ask for it or choose it or accept it. It has already happened to us. Therefore, the only thing we can DO is reject.

[DaRev]

[/b]

Ok forgive me for I'm just comming to understand these things myself so don't take my word over more authorative words but here is how I understand it.

Basically we do not choose Christ as Christ gives his grace out to everyone. However we can choose to reject christ which sends us to hell. Therefore, we can not choose to accept Christ, but only to reject him.

The Holy spirit dwells in all. Unbelivers choose to ignore it.

I think you misunderstand "once saved, always saved" If I am saved once through beliving in Christ but then later reject Christ, I am no longer saved. Because I have rejected the salvation given to me.

Therefore I am only saved as long as I continue to realize the Holy Spirit's work of faith within me.

Those who are not saved have activly rejected God's grace which he gives to all. In a sense God does not save us "without our permission" because we can choose to reject it. However we make no choice to accept the grace as it is already there, we only come to realize it.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken on any of this.

:thumbsup: :clap: :amen:

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

:thumbsup: :clap: :amen:
Yay! They agree!! (and me too; thoroughgoing monergist)

[QuiltAngel]

Luther073082
You done well!

[Luther073082]

I think once people are patient with me I can understand more.

Again I'm in agreement as it was said before I think that I personally agreed on a lot of stuff its just that the terminology I used was not what you have been taught.

And previously I was just rejecting calvanism as being scripturally correct.

[LilLamb219]

Do you see now though how terminology makes a world of difference?

I like to think of it as a baseball game. A home run is not called something else really and a pitch is a pitch. The plates have their term and so do the players. I don't demand that people change the language of the game because I want it changed. I learn what the names/terms are so I can communicate with others and we understand each other :)

[Luther073082]

Yeah but you still have to teach the proper terminology in a patient manner. And the patience is what was lacking for a while. I think people have calmed down a bit and maybe it was just bad timing on my part to come in but when I came, it seemed like there was a general lack of patience.

[LilLamb219]

Definitely bad timing on your part, I'd say. But that previous guy who made us so very cautious has now been banned, so we can breathe some air for now and relax.

[QuiltAngel]

It also helps in the way the question is phrased. Remember a certain poll? The way it was asked and the timing were both factors. Also, once you get to know people here, it won't seem as bad. The longer you are here, you will see why we get a little edgy sometimes.

[Luther073082]

But it bothers me if people get edgy around visitors. I'm trying to get my GF to come in here because we are trying to decide on a church when if we get married. And I want her to see and understand the doctrine's of the Lutheran church. And you are right a lot of churchs don't teach much in terms of doctrine. Her church doesn't even have a doctrine on the Eucharist.

But if she comes in here and feels attacked or made to feel stupid, not only do I look bad and have to try and smooth things over but she'll never even consider going to a Lutheran church.

So as much as I'd like her to understand everything, I'm also concerned that she will have her feelings hurt.

[LilLamb219]

The best thing to do is when the thread is started, explain what you just explained above...that she is learning and you'd like the thread to stay nice. :)

[DaRev]

The best thing to do is when the thread is started, explain what you just explained above...that she is learning and you'd like the thread to stay nice. :)

He has a point, though, Lambie. One shouldn't have to request that a thread "stay nice." We should just be that way naturally.

The issue is that we Lutherans are a defensive bunch. We kind of fit in the middle of the Christian understandings. While we are "catholic" we are not Roman Catholic, and thus we have to defend ourselves from that standpoint. We Lutherans also do not consider ourselves "protestant" and yet we have to defend ourselves from that element as well. Confessional Lutherans are sort of on an island having to battle invaders on a regular basis. Because of this, we're a bit jumpy at times.

While I present this as a reason, it is not an excuse. I personally beg for God's mercy and strength daily.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

He has a point, though, Lambie. One shouldn't have to request that a thread "stay nice." We should just be that way naturally.

The issue is that we Lutherans are a defensive bunch. We kind of fit in the middle of the Christian understandings. While we are "catholic" we are not Roman Catholic, and thus we have to defend ourselves from that standpoint. We Lutherans also do not consider ourselves "protestant" and yet we have to defend ourselves from that element as well. Confessional Lutherans are sort of on an island having to battle invaders on a regular basis. Because of this, we're a bit jumpy at times.

While I present this as a reason, it is not an excuse. I personally beg for God's mercy and strength daily.
That and we're Germans.

[Melethiel]

That and we're Germans.
I'm not.





:P

[Luther073082]

The best thing to do is when the thread is started, explain what you just explained above...that she is learning and you'd like the thread to stay nice. :)

Well I don't know if she will or not. She doesn't like theology like I do. She thinks it turns it into more of a religion then a relationship.

Which is a big thing because if she's attacked she's going to definatly view Lutheranism as Christian denomination that treats God in a distant manner and that isn't true. We're the priesthood of all belivers!

But I think the problem is that if I have to make a disclaimer of please be nice, we have to ask ourselves if we are being good Christians and witnesses.

Having been an atheist I can tell you that a person who tries to wack people over the head with the bible doesn't convert anyone and only makes enemies. The best people witness by living out biblical principles in their every day life. And don't get me started on "Christians" who go on a sinning spree every Friday/Saturday and try to use Sunday to "whip the slate" so they can do it again next weekend.

She's not going to accept Lutheranism by being hit over the head with the book of concord but by patient and caring teaching. . .

I'd like to have both worlds but I definatly love her more then Luther.

Edit: Yeah and I understand what Rev is saying. If she comes in here (Screen name Keri) then just be kind of careful, she has no Lutheran background only "protestant" (ugg I don't like saying that because I consider Lutherans to be protestants because we where the first protestants!)

[DaRev]

That and we're Germans.

Speak for yourself. I'm an Irish/Brit serving in a Slovak congregation.

[LilLamb219]

But I think the problem is that if I have to make a disclaimer of please be nice, we have to ask ourselves if we are being good Christians and witnesses.


It's perfectly acceptable to set that sort of boundary though since even though we're Christians, we still live in these sinful human bodies. I'm never a good enough Christian...so remind me of what I need to do from time to time :wave:

[Luther073082]

Speak for yourself. I'm an Irish/Brit serving in a Slovak congregation.

I'm german but my congregation is swedish. So much so that our current pastor is the first non-sweed to ever serve there. And many of the older folks still have a swedish accent.

Its really interesting because we have a couple family lines that date back to the founding of the congregation 150 years ago.

[QuiltAngel]

My husband is a Swede/Norwegian serving a German congregation.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Welsh, German, Irish, Norse.

[IowaLutheran]

Danish/British

[synger]

I know how that goes. My husband came in here and asked some questions, and he hasn't been back since. *sighs* He can argue politics all day long, but theology isn't his strongest point.

Well, in truth, he was in the conservative subforum of TCL, because we'll be joining the LCMS. Ah, well. I learn a LOT here, and love the fellowship, even if we sometimes get a bit noisy in our discussions.

[Luther073082]

I don't like to argue about which corporate croney we should elect. . .

Actually you'd be surprised I know a good deal about politics. . . but I still think the corporate masters own them all.

[Qoheleth]

Scripture clearly teaches us that we, in no way, contribute to our salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us this. To "choose" or "accept" are active works for us. We are incapable of "choosing" or "accepting" God because of our sinful condition. God certainly knows this, thus He has made the "choice" for us. Jesus said, "You have not chosen Me, I have chosen you."...

you can see that while it is God who has done the work for our salvation, thus we have nothing to contribute to it, we still, because of our sinful human nature, have the ability to reject it.


Yay! They agree!! (and me too; thoroughgoing monergist)


Is it not the Lutheran understanding that in all this we neither "accept" or "reject", that is, conversion is a Passive event as I believe the confessions point out?


Q

[QuiltAngel]

NO, not politics!!!

I live in Iowa, need I say more? Blech, yuck, go away politics.

Saw a political cartoon. Takes place in an Iowa Diner with two people sitting there. Says, "when you think about it, what's stopping us from holding our caucusses NOW for the 2012 presidential race?"

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I don't like to argue about which corporate croney we should elect. . .

Actually you'd be surprised I know a good deal about politics. . . but I still think the corporate masters own them all.
What's wrong with coporations? They provided basic goods and services to millions of people across large areas at low cost and high quality.

[Luther073082]

And buy out politicians. . . so they can get their cheap labor.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

And buy out politicians. . . so they can get their cheap labor.
What's wrong with cheep labor? They're still getting paid more than others in their country, and given the exchange rate it actually gives them remarkable purchasing power.

[DaRev]

What's wrong with cheep labor? They're still getting paid more than others in their country, and given the exchange rate it actually gives them remarkable purchasing power.

While our own legal citizens are trying to find work so that they can survive to live in THIS country... :doh:

[IowaLutheran]

NO, not politics!!!

I live in Iowa, need I say more? Blech, yuck, go away politics.

Saw a political cartoon. Takes place in an Iowa Diner with two people sitting there. Says, "when you think about it, what's stopping us from holding our caucusses NOW for the 2012 presidential race?"

The ads on TV and radio do get a little old. However, it is kind of cool that we have the opportunity to meet candidates up close and personal if we want too.

[QuiltAngel]

The ads on TV and radio do get a little old. However, it is kind of cool that we have the opportunity to meet candidates up close and personal if we want too.
We have had so many through the big town in our county already. We did go to see one in person.

Did you go to the straw poll? We did not. I suppose we could have gone on our own dime, but just don't know who we really support yet so thought why go.

[Luther073082]

While our own legal citizens are trying to find work so that they can survive to live in THIS country... :doh:

:clap:

[IowaLutheran]

We have had so many through the big town in our county already. We did go to see one in person.

Did you go to the straw poll? We did not. I suppose we could have gone on our own dime, but just don't know who we really support yet so thought why go.

I did not go. I'm currently registered as an independent so I wouldn't have been welcome anyway!

Sioux City is big enough that we have had everyone here, some multiple times.

[The Princess Bride]

There is also the verse that says "No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit." Which means that God has to have acted upon us first. We don't ask for it or choose it or accept it. It has already happened to us. Therefore, the only thing we can DO is reject.
We shall just have to agree to disagree on this then. :wave:

[DaRev]

We shall just have to agree to disagree on this then. :wave:

Well, just FYI, I never "agree to disagree." The Scriptures say what they say. And that's what I uphold. :)

[The Princess Bride]

Well, just FYI, I never "agree to disagree." The Scriptures say what they say. And that's what I uphold. :)
Ok then, your verse of reference doesnt say what my verse of reference said.

Through personal experience, I believe in the deepest part of my heart and spirit, that choosing to acknowledge Christ and accepting Him for who He is, is a conscious choice that only we can make for ourself.

I believe that all are predestined and chosen to be saved, by because He is a Just God, He will not "force" Himself or salvation upon.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Ok then, your verse of reference doesnt say what my verse of reference said.

Through personal experience, I believe in the deepest part of my heart and spirit, that choosing to acknowledge Christ and accepting Him for who He is, is a conscious choice that only we can make for ourself.

I believe that all are predestined and chosen to be saved, by because He is a Just God, He will not "force" Himself or salvation upon.
Could you cite again what verse you believe affirms that belief in Christ comes through free choice?

[DaRev]

Ok then, your verse of reference doesnt say what my verse of reference said.

Through personal experience, I believe in the deepest part of my heart and spirit, that choosing to acknowledge Christ and accepting Him for who He is, is a conscious choice that only we can make for ourself.

I believe that all are predestined and chosen to be saved, by because He is a Just God, He will not "force" Himself or salvation upon.

You just contradicted yourself.


You consider God's love for us "forcing"??
Do you have children? If they are sick, do you take them to the doctor or do you let them "choose" to go on their own? Our heavenly Father knows that we are sick in sin and that we cannot "choose" the cure for ourselves. He has made that choice for us, and in turn we are eternally gratefull... or we turn away from Him and His love for us and continue in our terminal illness.

The bottom line is because we are conceived and born sinful and spiritually dead, we are unable to do anything towards our own salvation. On our own, apart from God, we would not even choose Him or accept Him because we are by nature sinful.

Romans 3:10-18, "As it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one." "Their throat is an open grave, With their tongues they keep deceiving," "The poison of asps is under their lips"; "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness"; "Their feet are swift to shed blood, Destruction and misery are in their paths, And the path of peace have they not known." "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Psalm 14:1-3, "The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one."

Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19, "And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone."

[The Princess Bride]

Could you cite again what verse you believe affirms that belief in Christ comes through free choice?
I found it! :D And a few others to boot....



Romans 10:9

NASB: that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be savedGWT: If you declare that Jesus is Lord, and believe that God brought him back to life, you will be saved

Matthew 10:32 (http://bible.cc/matthew/10-32.htm) "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.

Romans 4:24 (http://bible.cc/romans/4-24.htm) but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead

Acts 16:31 (http://bible.cc/acts/16-31.htm) They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Philippians 2:11 (http://bible.cc/philippians/2-11.htm) and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive
us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness – 1 John 1:9.

"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin." Psalms 32:5.

[DaRev]

And each of those MUST be taken in the context of my above quotes and especially 1 Corinthians 12:3, "no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit." And Ephesians 2:8. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." And John 15:16, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you."

Our ability to believe in Him and confess His name and call upon Him and be saved comes from Him having chosen and accepted us first. Otherwise we would be unable and unwilling to do so.

[The Princess Bride]

And each of those MUST be taken in the context of my above quotes and especially 1 Corinthians 12:3, "no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit." And Ephesians 2:8. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." And John 15:16, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you."
Crapt, three times I've tried to reply, and my computer shut down....:doh:

So, I will just say this, since I'm going to bed...


Have you ever been FORCED to take a gift against your will?

Taking gifts are optional...they arent required...

Our ability to believe in Him and confess His name and call upon Him and be saved comes from Him having chosen and accepted us first. Otherwise we would be unable and unwilling to do so.
Being chosen and accepted first does not mean we are saved by default.

[DaRev]

Crapt, three times I've tried to reply, and my computer shut down....:doh:

So, I will just say this, since I'm going to bed...


Have you ever been FORCED to take a gift against your will?

Taking gifts are optional...they arent required...

That's right, which is why we have the ability to reject the gift. But a gift is just that - a gift. We don't work for it, we don't ask for it, we don't pay for it, we don't do anything to get it, otherwise it isn't a gift but an obligation or a wage. And God CERTAINLY isn't obligated to any of us. It is we who are obligated to Him.


Being chosen and accepted first does not mean we are saved by default.


God has given the gift of faith and salvation to everyone. (John 3:16) We are saved because God has saved us. We are damned because we have rejected His gift of salvation and have damned ourselves.

[LilLamb219]

Was Lazarus FORCED to be awakened from his death? Did he get to choose?

Our Father saves his children...the children don't need to ask Him to do it.

If your child were drowning in water and was lying there unresponsive, would you grab him/her and revive him/her or would you stand there asking the child to choose life or death? We are dead to sin until God saves us. We can't choose FOR our salvation. Our salvation is GIVEN to us. We RECEIVE it.

[JimfromOhio]

I could not resist. :)

The key issue is "how we receive" the gift. You have a gift from God, will you receive it or not? Its not about "choosing" but rather whether our hearts are willing to acknowledge the Holy Spirit's conviction.

One of the perfect examples of the "conviction" is Jesus' knocking in Revelatoin Revelation 3:20, Jesus said:
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. We are to recognize Jesus voice's like a sheep recognizing the shepherd's voice. Only the Holy Spirit can prick a person's heart to cause a person to hear Christ's voice. Jesus said in John 10:14-15 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

There is a big difference between in "choosing" and "convicting". This has NOTHING to do with "freewill" but whether a person's heart is willing to hear God's conviction. Verses that illustrates the examples:

Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Thessalonians 4:8 Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, Who gives you His Holy Spirit.

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He Who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, Who lives in you.

[Confess]

The only people who had true free will were Adam and Eve.

They were pure, sinless and holy. They knew, walked and had close fellowship with God. This is something that no other human has had other then Jesus Himself being fully human and fully God.

Because Adam and Eve had this relationship and nature with God, it is THEY and THEY ALONE who had a free will to end it.

We on the other hand, cannot know what it is like to be in that kind of fellowship. We are sinners by nature and seperated from God due to that sin.

Our only will is to sin. We are bound to it lest the Holy Spirit breaks those chains that bind us. We are like prisoners in a jail cell. The Holy Spirit can open the door, but for many of us, our sin rejects the works of the Holy Spirit and we remain in the jail cell.

Those who walk out of the cell, only walk out because they have faith that the cell door is actually opened for them.

Take Peter walking on water. He could not see that he was able to do it, but because Jesus told him he could ... he did. That is until he began to doubt the Word of God ... then he began to sink.

[LilLamb219]

The Revelations quote is not directed toward unbelievers, but believers.
God is the one who breaks down the spirit for us to receive. It has nothing to do with us allowing it.

[JimfromOhio]

The Revelations quote is not directed toward unbelievers, but believers.
God is the one who breaks down the spirit for us to receive. It has nothing to do with us allowing it.

Actually, "Churches" and "Believers". The church at Laodicea is a graphic picture of the church where there will be no true believers, only false. They talk about Him, but they don't know Him. They operate like churches, but they aren't. Jesus pleads with individuals today, "I want to come into your life. I want you to open the door and let Me in." He was also pleading with individuals in the Laodicean church to let Him in before it was too late. Christ wants to come into your life and change it.

Jesus knocking represents each person's heart. He is talking to individuals. When Christ says, "... if any man ...," He's not talking about a collective group, but about individuals instead. Christ is knocking at the door of your heart--He wants to come in.