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Fish and Bread
14th August 2007, 01:42 PM
I was pondering that one of the aspects of religion that I sometimes like is a sense of place, even when I sometimes disagree with the actual details. One gets the sense of being in a line of continuity and repeating traditions, there being a norm and a standard of divinely ordained behavior, and so forth -- and sometimes this can be neat even in what is often called sin.

There are whole generations who grow up without a sense of propriety in any way whatsoever. I am not saying this is evil or to be condemned completely, but it in a way is sad for the people involved, who will never have experiences like debauchery on Maundy Thursday and solemn repentance in Lent, or even that idea of having to, say, quickly marry when you get knocked up or knock someone up and claiming the baby was conceived on your wedding night. :) Nowadays in the later situation, people would just not marry at all, in fact many would console against marriage in such a scenario on certain practical grounds.

Then there is annulment and divorce. I do think it should be allowed under select circumstances, the three I have in mind are infidelity, abuse, and denial of intimacy. *However*, again, we've lost the sense that divorce or annulment is something bad that's sort of a last resort that we feel bad about. And I wonder if, even for people in those situations, it might be better for them to have the experience of feeling a little guilty, or doing the best to avoid the circumstance. There's not even a cultural sense that "Hey, we should try to avoid divorce and work things out even if the marriage isn't perfect and marriage is a last resort" anymore, and that that's a virtue to think that way -- so many people nowadays console to just divorce if there's a problem or the spark is gone or you think you'd be happier single or in another marriage. I've even heard people criticized for trying to work things out with their spouse instead of just divorcing for trivial reasons.

There's this sense of no norms or backbone to society any more. Maybe it's for the best, but occasionally I think we've lost something. Not this idea of condemning sin and people going to hell necessarily, but more the idea of what are the ideals we strive for and what is "the right thing to do". Nowadays, we have few if any common ideals or notions of what the right thing is to do exactly. It might be nice if that was there, even while recognizing that there are exceptions to the rules and people can sometimes make alternate choices that are right for them, rather than just saying "there is no general ideal at all".

Just stuff I'm mulling. By no means would I advocate returning to days where everyone had to fit into moral strict moral norms (In fact, I am sometimes critical of churches for doing that), but it'd be neat if we had sort of well acknowledged guidelines that were accepted and then people could deviate from them after really careful consideration and thought according to their evaluation of their own individual circumstance rather than a society with no real guidelines at all.

JasonV
14th August 2007, 01:56 PM
I see society returning to tribal norms instead of societal norms. Granted, the "tribes" are usually just our immediate families, but that's sufficient for guidance. I actually prefer it this way, as I am free to discuss what is right and wrong with my children, without interference from my neighbors. (Some of whom I highly disagree with on numerous things.)

As for the first part of your post, I agree that a sense of "connection" is what makes Apostolic churches more special than non-Apostolic churches.

Same goes for any ancient tradition of any religion IMO.

Loki
14th August 2007, 05:00 PM
Death of a culture is always painful.

Do you speak french, by chance? I can link a youtube video you might enjoy.

By and large, I agree, and feel a twinge of sadness for the loss of the old ideas, even if some of them were harmful. The best I can do is to try to keep the beauty alive in myself and in those around me.

Fish and Bread
14th August 2007, 10:32 PM
Do you speak french, by chance? I can link a youtube video you might enjoy.

I don't speak French, but I did read an English-language article about a song that is very popular in Quebec which essentially expresses sadness and loss at a loss of culture and tradition in society. I assume that's probably the one you're talking about. Like you, I got the impression the song wasn't so much a call to traditional values (Despite the interpretation of many Internet commentators) so much as just a cry of "Who are we?" and tears shed at no longer having a clue as to collective identity in the present and with the past and the future.

Loki
14th August 2007, 11:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKCRHhmHvjg

Degenerations (I'm lazy and left out all the accent aigus on the "e's."
by Mes Aieux (amusingly, this roughly translates to "My ancestors." The song title is a pun, in that it could be heard as "Des generations" or "Degenerations," meaning "The generations" and "degeneration" respectively.

And keeping in the family tradition, the people in the video are father, mother, and sister to various group members.

Several of their songs deal with loss of cultural identity that came with the Quiet Revolution

Da_Funkey_Gibbon
11th September 2007, 03:21 AM
Yes, one wonders if it is even possible, in this world, to have a sense of community without accompanying tyranny, or liberty without fragmentation and loneliness. I mean, freedom from is all well and good, but it leaves you empty. The idea of negative freedom also assumes that the individual is somehow distinct from society - individuals may go about their individual purposes under the guardianship of a tolerant society - but of course it is individuals that make up society and you cannot really separate the two concepts so easily. A society without purpose translates to individuals without purpose.

Of course, this may not be a new thing, T.S.Eliot articulated the tragedy sublimely almost 100 years ago: "Under the brown fog of a winter dawn,/ A crowd flowed over London Bridge, so many,/ I had not thought death had undone so many." Thus likening commuters to the city with the souls in Dante's vestibule who made the "Great Refusal" and chose neither good nor evil, and so are fit for neither heaven nor hell.

Fish and Bread
11th September 2007, 10:36 AM
Thus likening commuters to the city with the souls in Dante's vestibule who made the "Great Refusal" and chose neither good nor evil, and so are fit for neither heaven nor hell.

I'll admit, I don't have the patience to read many of the classics, so I haven't read Dante (apart from brief snippets here or there). This postulation he made sounds really fascinating, though. Would it be possible for you to describe it at more length? Is it just his own speculation or does it have some basis somewhere in historical theological speculation before him?