Replacement Theology and the EOC

[DarkNLovely]

Replacement theology for those that may not know is the belife that the Church is the New Israel, and the Jews, who failed to obey God, are no longer the chosen. I was wondering what the EOC's stance was on this, and if anybody differs in opinion! Thanks ya'll!

http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

[ma2000]

I think that the "chosen people" meant that Christ will come from their midst, not that they are superior to other people.
But I think I've heard similar opinions to the one in the link.

[InnerPhyre]

Israel is Israel. The Jews who recognized Christ as the Messiah remained Israel, while those who rejected Him were pruned from the tree. We, the gentiles who believe, were grafted to the vine. 'Tis all in Romans.

[DarkNLovely]

But has the Church actually REPLACED Israel?

[buzuxi02]

The Church truly is Israel. Its not that the Church has replaced Israel but the other way around. Political Israel, the state was founded in 1947, the Church was found in 33 a.d. and is in the lineage of Judaism for accepting the messiah.

[Veritas]

Replacement theology for those that may not know is the belife that the Church is the New Israel, and the Jews, who failed to obey God, are no longer the chosen. I was wondering what the EOC's stance was on this, and if anybody differs in opinion! Thanks ya'll!

http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html


Greetings Orthodox Brethren!:wave: I am not trying to answer this question for you, but both Catholic and Orthodox agree on this doctrinal issue.

DNL, "Replacement Theology" is a misnomer, a term coined by Dispensationalists to misrepresent Covenant Theology which the vast majority of Christians believe. Dispensationalism is a very new, unbiblical theory that believes that there are two paths to salvation: one for the Jews and one for the rest of us. In truth, there is only one way (one truth and one life) and that is through Jesus. The Church did not "replace" Israel but is the "fulfillment" of it. It's all in God's Word.

Peace!

[Adammi]

I once heard an Orthodox Christian on CF (if I am quoting you please step in and say so if you like) say that Replacement Theology is what led them to the Eastern Orthodox Church.

[DarkNLovely]

Um.....no. Coming from a dispensatonalist background, I can tell you that that is not true! There are believed to be separate plans for physical Israel and Believers (Jewish and Non-Jewish alike) but not two different paths to salvation, you are confusing that with the Two Covenant Theory. Covenant theory, as admitted by several covenant thologians, was not a view of the CF's. It's only slightly older than Dispensationalism, which can be seen as Biblical. I just want to to know the EO'S view on it; not debate. But from what I'm able to grasp, it seems like EOC does ascribe to what is called RT. Right? *Forgot to add Veritas post*

[InnerPhyre]

The Church did not replace Israel. The Church IS Israel. The Original Israel. Trademarked and everything ;) Many of the Jews left Israel. Many Gentiles were grafted into Israel. But it's still just Israel. God's faithful.

[Veritas]

The Church did not replace Israel. The Church IS Israel. The Original Israel. Trademarked and everything ;) Many of the Jews left Israel. Many Gentiles were grafted into Israel. But it's still just Israel. God's faithful.

I don't believe you're going to get DNL to see it this way, if she's an avowed Dispy.

[PattyOfurniture]

I don't believe you're going to get DNL to see it this way, if she's an avowed Dispy.
This is 1 of the few areas I agree with the RCC on.

[ClementofRome]

I just love when an really old thread gets new juice!!! :)

Esp, when it is a topic I love....

Replacement language should be replaced with "fulfillment" language! ;)

[PattyOfurniture]

I just love when an really old thread gets new juice!!! :)

Esp, when it is a topic I love....

Replacement language should be replaced with "fulfillment" language! ;)
I'm exposed!a man after my own Heart;)

[ClementofRome]

I'm exposed!a man after my own Heart;)

dude, your screen name just kills me!!!! ^_^

And indeed....like minds....

[PattyOfurniture]

dude, your screen name just kills me!!!! ^_^

And indeed....like minds....
Thank you Dude.wanna know how much me likes this subject?I've actually had friends and Family greet me by saying...."Brandon,we really dont care about the israel of god whatever the *ell that is,just go in the Kitchen and tell Mom how Killer her pot roast is..."
I had to rethink my sympathetic demographic....

[ClementofRome]

Thank you Dude.wanna know how much me likes this subject?I've actually had friends and Family greet me by saying...."Brandon,we really dont care about the israel of god whatever the *ell that is,just go in the Kitchen and tell Mom how Killer her pot roast is..."
I had to rethink my sympathetic demographic....

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA! ^_^

That is rich indeed! My parents are both retired UMC pastors, so they are indeed in my camp....my deceased inlaws (may they enjoy their present state of glorification) were dispys to the max and I often had a challenge on my hands there.

Other than that....no one really gives a crap in this "Left Behind" world. :(

[PattyOfurniture]

you wont like this much...lol
1 single book by a 7th day Adventist started me on this lonely road.its called 'the Israel of God in Prophecy' by Hans LaRondelle.
I believe in like nothing the SDA do as of now a days( I did at 1 time)
but this book shreds dispensationalism like nothing else you'll prolly ever read. as of late I've taken a really hardcore interest in the church fathers and the apostolic Fathers.even with the varying degrees of what were deemed un-ortho the vast majority of those guys got it right concerning the advent of the church,judaizers,fulfillment of the covenants ,etc.
I think Prez Bush said it best(though he was talking about another obscure matter)"your either fur us or agin us..."
...no seperate program,sacrifice,plan whatever
I see it this way...God Loved us so much that he sent his only begotten son,so that the entire World could be saved,no more ol boys club,your Fathers were special whatever.God had a plan That he told us about many moons ago and He did it.WE ARE THE ROYAL PRIESTHOOD,THE CHOSEN
THE CHURCH IS THE FULFILLMENT OF GODS GREAT PROMISES

nuff said....lol
May God Bless and guide us

[PattyOfurniture]

by the way..I saw John Hagee in the Buffet line and wanted to ask him a thingy or two,but he seemed preoccupied:(

[ClementofRome]

you wont like this much...lol
1 single book by a 7th day Adventist started me on this lonely road.its called 'the Israel of God in Prophecy' by Hans LaRondelle.
I believe in like nothing the SDA do as of now a days( I did at 1 time)
but this book shreds dispensationalism like nothing else you'll prolly ever read. .........

You won't believe this, but I read the same book in 1994 and it was also instrumental in my theology as well!!!! I am also not anywhere near the SDA (as I am preparing to enter the EO), but his work is just great.

Also, when i wrote my doctoral dissertation on 1 Clement, I also became even more convinced that the Church is true Israel! If you want to discuss further, feel free to PM.... :thumbsup:

[PattyOfurniture]

You won't believe this, but I read the same book in 1994 and it was also instrumental in my theology as well!!!! I am also not anywhere near the SDA (as I am preparing to enter the EO), but his work is just great.

Also, when i wrote my doctoral dissertation on 1 Clement, I also became even more convinced that the Church is true Israel! If you want to discuss further, feel free to PM.... :thumbsup:
"Hey Clemmm"(in thick southern drawl ),
I am Amazed that you've even heard of that fantastic lil' book.so I guess theres like 12 of us out there that have actually read it...lol(I do Love to reference it still)
As far as mentioning things like doctrinal Dissertations and the such,I'm just a Construction worker,not unlike the unfrozen Caveman Lawyer but without the glass o' scotch and the tact
SO KEEP IT SIMPLE FELLA...lol
I would not know a Dissertation if one in fact bit me on the Derriere.

Another think brah...everyone today seems to be running(with bottled water in hand) to seeker services,megachurchs with planted Palm trees,hip-hop DJs or the middle age crisis Music minister with polo shirt type thingy going on.you getting into the EO may be like those Salmon swimming the wrong way and trying to jump up onto that lil' waterfall...looool
so I'm intrigued to say the least

so yes if the offer still stands I will PM,thanx Dude
GBU

[MariaRegina]

What is an avowed Dipsy?

Dispensationalist?

[ClementofRome]

What is an avowed Dipsy?

Dispensationalist?

That would be correct dear Aria! ;)

[Jacob4707]

by the way..I saw John Hagee in the Buffet line and wanted to ask him a thingy or two,but he seemed preoccupied:(

I thought John Hagee was a buffet line.

I just love when an really old thread gets new juice!!! :)

Esp, when it is a topic I love....

Replacement language should be replaced with "fulfillment" language! ;)

That is nicely said, Clem. Reading 1 Peter made me realize that he uses the same language for his readers as the OT used for the "chosen people."

Though Romans 9-11 might give support to the idea that there will coexist another "Israel" alongside the Church, I think the overwhelming majority of texts support and confirm the view that it is those who are of Christ that are the children of Abraham and the Israel of God.

And, Jesus did talk about the kingdom being taken away from Israel and/or its leaders and given to another "nation," so if a person wants to use the word "replacement," there may be some merit to that. (Matthew 21:43)

[ClementofRome]

Hey friends, here is another great read:

The Bible and the Future
Anthony A. Hoekema
Eerdmans/Patenoster

Excellent chapter on a critique of the Dispys!

Clement of Rome (St. Clement, 3 Bishop of Rome...95ish AD) was clear in his understanding of the Church being "true Israel." Really good stuff. If the Jews expected the coming of a Messiah (and they did)...and the Messiah came (and they rejected Him)....but there were those who truly believed that Jesus was the Messiah, would it not follow that those who followed the Messiah are true Israel....ala, fulfuillment! :)

[MariaRegina]

Many of these dispensationalists agree with the Judaizers that we Orthodox Christians who (1) claim to be the New Israel and who (2) believe that the New Jerusalem is Heaven are anti-semitic, when we are not.

Unfortunately, this subject is a hot potato and is fraught with emotionalism, but the name calling is really unnecessary.

[Mary of Bethany]

I don't believe you're going to get DNL to see it this way, if she's an avowed Dispy.

What is an avowed Dipsy?

Dispensationalist?

Many of these dispensationalists agree with the Judaizers that we Orthodox Christians who (1) claim to be the New Israel and who (2) believe that the New Jerusalem is Heaven are anti-semitic, when we are not.

Unfortunately, this subject is a hot potato and is fraught with emotionalism, but the name calling is really unnecessary.

Aria,

I think you misunderstood. No one called them "dipsy", it's "dispy" as in "dispensationalist".

:)

Mary

[MariaRegina]

Aria,

I think you misunderstood. No one called them "dipsy", it's "dispy" as in "dispensationalist".

:)

Mary

Well, if I was drinking coffee, the screen would now be wet.

I was referring to political charge of anti-semitism.

The "dipsy" was only a typographical error.

:D


"Dipsy is the most confident Teletubby when it comes to technology."

http://www.worldofbubble.com/teletubbies/dipsy.html

"Dipsey \Dip"sey\, Dipsie \Dip"sie\, Dipsy \Dip"sy\, n.
1. A sinker attached to a fishing line; also, a line having
several branches, each with such a sinker, used in
deep-sea fishing. [Local, U. S.]

2. (Naut.) A deep-sea lead. [Rare]"

http://dict.die.net/dipsy/

[PattyOfurniture]

Greetings Orthodox Brethren!:wave: I am not trying to answer this question for you, but both Catholic and Orthodox agree on this doctrinal issue.

DNL, "Replacement Theology" is a misnomer, a term coined by Dispensationalists to misrepresent Covenant Theology which the vast majority of Christians believe. Dispensationalism is a very new, unbiblical theory that believes that there are two paths to salvation: one for the Jews and one for the rest of us. In truth, there is only one way (one truth and one life) and that is through Jesus. The Church did not "replace" Israel but is the "fulfillment" of it. It's all in God's Word.

Peace!
I think if anything,dispensationalism is the real replacement theology(if only temporarily).I believe Biblically speaking that the Church is the fulfillment and not the replacement.

"The church represents the culmination of Hebrew history,it constitutes the fulfillment of the predicted new testament to be made 'with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah'(Jer 31:31,Heb 8:8,10:17-19)..." Hans K LaRondelle(The Israel of God in Prophecy)

[ClementofRome]

I think if anything,dispensationalism is the real replacement theology(if only temporarily).I believe Biblically speaking that the Church is the fulfillment and not the replacement.

"The church represents the culmination of Hebrew history,it constitutes the fulfillment of the predicted new testament to be made 'with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah'(Jer 31:31,Heb 8:8,10:17-19)..." Hans K LaRondelle(The Israel of God in Prophecy)

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Mary of Bethany]

Well, if I was drinking coffee, the screen would now be wet.

I was referring to political charge of anti-semitism.

The "dipsy" was only a typographical error.

:D


"Dipsy is the most confident Teletubby when it comes to technology."

http://www.worldofbubble.com/teletubbies/dipsy.html

"Dipsey \Dip"sey\, Dipsie \Dip"sie\, Dipsy \Dip"sy\, n.
1. A sinker attached to a fishing line; also, a line having
several branches, each with such a sinker, used in
deep-sea fishing. [Local, U. S.]

2. (Naut.) A deep-sea lead. [Rare]"

http://dict.die.net/dipsy/

LOL! Sorry 'bout that.

Mary

[Shubunkin]

I see a lot of protestants are sitting and waiting for Israel to do something, such as finally accepting Christ as their Messiah. It doesn't look like it's happening, and I doubt that they would ever believe that it won't.

I don't see them trying to evangelize Israel to any great extent, anyway. You'd think...

[OnTheWay]

I see a lot of protestants are sitting and waiting for Israel to do something, such as finally accepting Christ as their Messiah. It doesn't look like it's happening, and I doubt that they would ever believe that it won't.

I don't see them trying to evangelize Israel to any great extent, anyway. You'd think...

The Fundevangical world doesn't believe they have to as the dispenstationalist line runs that certain chosen Jews will manage to evanglize the entire Jewish world in a very short time frame. But I suppose first things first, they're waiting around for the temple to be rebuilt in Jerusalem.

[PattyOfurniture]

The Fundevangical world doesn't believe they have to as the dispenstationalist line runs that certain chosen Jews will manage to evanglize the entire Jewish world in a very short time frame. But I suppose first things first, they're waiting around for the temple to be rebuilt in Jerusalem.
Agreed,but in the mean time maybe as they are "waiting around" ... they might dust off that huge Family Bible Granny left them(its up there in the closet next to the Munsters lunchbox and Pet Rock...)and actually read it.
Then when that gets a bit boring turn off the left behind DVD and turn on the 24/7 news channel and see how much closer they are to getting that red heifer up the mount and all the Rabbis that are out on those cobble-stone roads bringing their Brethren to Christ....

[Tonks]

One of the other modern-day rejections of supersesisonism is that it is not "moral." Among many of the protestant types the historical position of the Church fell out of favor after the Holocaust. I say this not to be rude but because many them will openly state that a "new" approach needed to be found after the horrors.

Truth is not always easy to swallow...particularly in one of the greatest manifestations of a fallen world in recent memory.

[PattyOfurniture]

One of the other modern-day rejections of supersesisonism is that it is not "moral." Among many of the protestant types the historical position of the Church fell out of favor after the Holocaust. I say this not to be rude but because many them will openly state that a "new" approach needed to be found after the horrors.

Truth is not always easy to swallow...particularly in one of the greatest manifestations of a fallen world in recent memory.
well said...we can all be "stiff-necked" at times...lol

[Shubunkin]

The Fundevangical world doesn't believe they have to as the dispenstationalist line runs that certain chosen Jews will manage to evanglize the entire Jewish world in a very short time frame. But I suppose first things first, they're waiting around for the temple to be rebuilt in Jerusalem.
Oh yeah.... and like the walls of the temple are crumbling, and if it ever collapses there will be war because the Muslims have their mosque on the top there, and will believe it to be caused by the Israelies, when actually it would be natural forces.

:scratch:

Something like that...

[PattyOfurniture]

Oh yeah.... and like the walls of the temple are crumbling, and if it ever collapses there will be war because the Muslims have their mosque on the top there, and will believe it to be caused by the Israelies, when actually it would be natural forces.

:scratch:

Something like that...
okay,you lost me......loooooooooool (Come again)

[MariaRegina]

okay,you lost me......loooooooooool (Come again)

There are so many underground tunnels under the temple mount too, that the ground is probably ripe for a catastrophe.

So, if that temple mount is destroyed by natural forces, the moslems will fight to rebuild their mosque. Once a mosque, always a mosque. :sigh:

[PattyOfurniture]

There are so many underground tunnels under the temple mount too, that the ground is probably ripe for a catastrophe.

So, if that temple mount is destroyed by natural forces, the moslems will fight to rebuild their mosque. Once a mosque, always a mosque. :sigh:
ahhhhhh.....

[PattyOfurniture]

Hi again Guys,
I know this thread is about "replacement theology",but something is absolutely blowing me away this very second and I needed to get it.
"Sola Scriptura"



As a Protestant(only visited a catholic mass 1 time in my 45 yrs) "scripture only" wasn't even something I've ever dreamed of studying.its that sacred to us(Protestants)and when it comes to spiritual matters,I'm as honest and inquisitive as they come
but a funny thing happened on the way to....
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx

I apologize again,but this is major and I dont know what to do with it....loool

[Shubunkin]

Hi again Guys,
I know this thread is about "replacement theology",but something is absolutely blowing me away this very second and I needed to get it.
"Sola Scriptura"



As a Protestant(only visited a catholic mass 1 time in my 45 yrs) "scripture only" wasn't even something I've ever dreamed of studying.its that sacred to us(Protestants)and when it comes to spiritual matters,I'm as honest and inquisitive as they come
but a funny thing happened on the way to....
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx

I apologize again,but this is major and I dont know what to do with it....loool
Welcome to Orthodoxy!! ^_^

[PattyOfurniture]

Welcome to Orthodoxy!! ^_^
whoooa Nelly...loool
seriously speaking I've always from a protestant perspective tried to live and/or be a part of Christianity as the Apostles,1st believers did.this may sound impossible to the Orthodox,but this is how unquestionable scripture only is on my side.recently despite our disinterest in the church Fathers(sad to see that in print come to think of it)I endeavored to study what they said,thought,how they lived,etc. and strangely enough I started to feel a connection to them.
then ironically I see the words "replacement theology" and end up in here and theenn ironically again I meet the user ClementofRome who is on his way to EO which I found odd so theennnn ironically I find the web page I linked earlier knowing I would be able to refute prolly rather easily and its blowing me away.....
I'm not 1 easily blown from 1 doctrine to another,but no matter what happens...this is a strange chain of events for me.
something I wont dismiss

[Shubunkin]

whoooa Nelly...loool
seriously speaking I've always from a protestant perspective tried to live and/or be a part of Christianity as the Apostles,1st believers did.this may sound impossible to the Orthodox,but this is how unquestionable scripture only is on my side.recently despite our disinterest in the church Fathers(sad to see that in print come to think of it)I endeavored to study what they said,thought,how they lived,etc. and strangely enough I started to feel a connection to them.
then ironically I see the words "replacement theology" and end up in here and theenn ironically again I meet the user ClementofRome who is on his way to EO which I found odd so theennnn ironically I find the web page I linked earlier knowing I would be able to refute prolly rather easily and its blowing me away.....
I'm not 1 easily blown from 1 doctrine to another,but no matter what happens...this is a strange chain of events for me.
something I wont dismiss
Oh I realize it's a shock. :hug: What I am saying is "welcome" in the idea of understanding where we are coming from. Many of us have been "sola scriptura" believers, myself included. I came from a Lutheran church before accepting Orthodoxy. While it was intensely unsettling, interesting, and deeper than I had imagined, it took me two years to decide on Orthodoxy as where I wanted to be.

[Jacob4707]

One of the best defenses of Sola Scriptura is probably Keith Mathison's book, The Shape of Sola Scriptura. You can read a review and description here: http://christianbookreviews.net/?p=230

Mathison argues that Protestants more accurately practice "Solo Scriptura" in lieu of what he believes the Protestant Reformers actually taught.

He uses the Church Fathers to support his position against the Roman Catholic and Orthodox practices ... but one can use the Church Fathers to support varying positions by taking selections from their works.

Mathison was not ultimately persuasive in my case, but his book is worth reading if you want to read a good defense and explanation of the doctrine.

[PattyOfurniture]

Oh I realize it's a shock. :hug: What I am saying is "welcome" in the idea of understanding where we are coming from. Many of us have been "sola scriptura" believers, myself included. I came from a Lutheran church before accepting Orthodoxy. While it was intensely unsettling, interesting, and deeper than I had imagined, it took me two years to decide on Orthodoxy as where I wanted to be.
I do not mean this in a derogatory manner but the RCC really helped me to not even question scripture only.1 major thing I've just learned also is that a few of the RCC Dogmas,Doctrines whatever that I've always found not scriptural and even IMHO not "traditional" the Orthodox church disagrees with.this shocked me.
for me the Orthodox church has been way under the radar...lol

[PattyOfurniture]

One of the best defenses of Sola Scriptura is probably Keith Mathison's book, The Shape of Sola Scriptura. You can read a review and description here: http://christianbookreviews.net/?p=230

Mathison argues that Protestants more accurately practice "Solo Scriptura" in lieu of what he believes the Protestant Reformers actually taught.

He uses the Church Fathers to support his position against the Roman Catholic and Orthodox practices ... but one can use the Church Fathers to support varying positions by taking selections from their works.

Mathison was not ultimately persuasive in my case, but his book is worth reading if you want to read a good defense and explanation of the doctrine.
thank you very much:)

[Shubunkin]

I do not mean this in a derogatory manner but the RCC really helped me to not even question scripture only.1 major thing I've just learned also is that a few of the RCC Dogmas,Doctrines whatever that I've always found not scriptural and even IMHO not "traditional" the Orthodox church disagrees with.this shocked me.
for me the Orthodox church has been way under the radar...lol
Okay. There are many things Orthodoxy disagrees with in the RCC, of course.

[ClementofRome]

PattyO,

Sola scriptura came crumbling down for me even before I became a serious inquirer into EO. Once this "sacred cow" crumbled, I became quite open to what the Fathers and the Church had taught for 1500 years (and continue to teach for 2000 years....I use 1500 as that was my Protestant "point of reference"). If fact, I too was blown away.

As SaintMelania said....WELCOME! :)

[Akathist]

This thread is being moved to the Debate an Orthodox subforum.

The rules are a bit different in the debate subforum and nonEO's may post more then fellowship or ernest questions in that one area.

This move is made upon consensus of staff.

[Heorhij]

Dear friends, may I ask, what's the essence of Dispensationalism? I have heard the term but never understood what it means.

AS for Church and Israel, as far as I know, the Orthodox Church does not teach that the present-day Jewish nation or Israel has any special role in the establishment of the Kingdom of God. The idea that Christ will return to the literal physical city of Jerusalem and will sit there on a literal physical throne in the temple is not Orthodox (this an Orthodox theologian would probably identify with the ancient heresy of "chiliasm"). The people of God are those who have been faithful to Him beginning from Abel and Seth and Noah and all of the Old Testament prophets. Today, these people are those who belong to His Church, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (or the Orthodox Church). They (we) are moving toward His Kingdom which is, and will be not of this world.

[Lukaris]

Dear friends, may I ask, what's the essence of Dispensationalism? I have heard the term but never understood what it means.

AS for Church and Israel, as far as I know, the Orthodox Church does not teach that the present-day Jewish nation or Israel has any special role in the establishment of the Kingdom of God. The idea that Christ will return to the literal physical city of Jerusalem and will sit there on a literal physical throne in the temple is not Orthodox (this an Orthodox theologian would probably identify with the ancient heresy of "chiliasm"). The people of God are those who have been faithful to Him beginning from Abel and Seth and Noah and all of the Old Testament prophets. Today, these people are those who belong to His Church, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (or the Orthodox Church). They (we) are moving toward His Kingdom which is, and will be not of this world.
H, I think you may have already answered your question but here is a basic outline I found in an article on wikipedia 1. Dispensation of gentile nations per Genesis 1 - 11. 2. of Israel (Abraham's call to Pentecost) Genesis 12 to Acts 2 3. the church age from Acts 2 to Revelation 2 4. missionary tribulation of Israel Revelation 6-19 & a future 7 year period. 5. a literal earthly millenial reign in a rebuilt temple w/ restored animal sacrifice. The dispensations are God's administrations of covenants according to Biblical history outlined above (also economies or oikonomia in Greek, sure you already know that term). They see a Jewish restoration as (they see) per Zecharia 12:8-10 & the reinstitution of animal sacrifice (as they see) in Ezekiel 40-48. How would they answer the words of the prophet Micah with their belief in reinstituted blood sacrifice? "Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams,Ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has shown you O man, what is good: And what does the Lord require of you But to justly. to love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?" (Micah 6:7-8) (NKJV) or our familiar Psalm 51 (50 LXX) of King David? Lord have mercy.

[Heorhij]

H, I think you may have already answered your question but here is a basic outline I found in an article on wikipedia 1. Dispensation of gentile nations per Genesis 1 - 11. 2. of Israel (Abraham's call to Pentecost) Genesis 12 to Acts 2 3. the church age from Acts 2 to Revelation 2 4. missionary tribulation of Israel Revelation 6-19 & a future 7 year period. 5. a literal earthly millenial reign in a rebuilt temple w/ restored animal sacrifice. The dispensations are God's administrations of covenants according to Biblical history outlined above (also economies or oikonomia in Greek, sure you already know that term). They see a Jewish restoration as (they see) per Zecharia 12:8-10 & the reinstitution of animal sacrifice (as they see) in Ezekiel 40-48. How would they answer the words of the prophet Micah with their belief in reinstituted blood sacrifice? "Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams,Ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has shown you O man, what is good: And what does the Lord require of you But to justly. to love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?" (Micah 6:7-8) (NKJV) or our familiar Psalm 51 (50 LXX) of King David? Lord have mercy.
Thank you so much, Lukaris. So, Dispensationalism teaches that the restoration of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and of the animal sacrifices made in this Temple is one of God's "dispensations," one part of God's eternal providence, right? Hmmmm... no wonder some Evangelical Protestants, like Pat Robertson, are such Zionists. Amazing. Lord, have mercy, indeed...

[Lukaris]

Thank you so much, Lukaris. So, Dispensationalism teaches that the restoration of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and of the animal sacrifices made in this Temple is one of God's "dispensations," one part of God's eternal providence, right? Hmmmm... no wonder some Evangelical Protestants, like Pat Robertson, are such Zionists. Amazing. Lord, have mercy, indeed...
The idea of the reinstitution of the blood sacrifice was a surprise to me but I know the wikipedia article is accurate on that account. I remember during my phase of confused Christianity hearing a fundamentalist preacher speaking about the millenial reign in which "we" would be sacrificing at the temple but it did not register. Perhaps I rationalized he was speaking figuratively & went into a sort of denial. This is actually a new level of shock to me. Being originally raised in a "main line" Protestant church of course I know such a view is alien to most Protestants also.

[JustinM]

This is an issue that I've thought long and hard about. What really bothers me is the way we are characterized in evangelical media. For example, I recently came across an article in the Jerusalem Post Christian Edition entitled “The essence of Christian Zionism” by Elwood Mcquaid. He identified three categories of contemporary Christianity:

(1) There are the so-called mainline denominations, which can hardly be termed evangelical. They are better described as liberal Protestants who are ill-disposed toward Israel and conservative Christians.

(2) Then there are evangelicals whose basic theological center of gravity rests in Replacement Theology. They believe the biblical promises of a viable future for Israel have been rescinded. Consequently, they say, the Gentile-dominated church has now become the favored, true "Israel of God."

(3) Then there are Christian Zionists. Their basis of belief is rooted in the Scriptures, where irrevocable promises of an everlasting covenant have been given to the heirs of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This covenant is unconditional in substance and perpetuity.

Good conservative Christians are all pro-Israel and pro-“All things Jewish” like “us”. Everybody else is liberal and anti-Jew. This is what it boils down to isn’t it?

See, because I’m Eastern Orthodox, that means in the eyes of everyone who believes in dispensationalism, I hold to “Replacement Theology” and there is nothing I can say to convince them otherwise. What Mcquaid has written is biased and inaccurate. But how many in the evangelical world will come to us and ask for themselves?

I have no problem with being pro-Israel. In fact I am. And I believe that most Palestinians would probably fare better economically if their areas were fully under the control of Israel. But that’s just my opinion.

None of that matters anyhow because Jesus never required our "unconditional support for the State of Israel". He DID require unconditional love towards other people, without political strings attached.

Would a pro-Israel Christian lay down their life for a Palestinian Catholic? Would they wash the feet of a Palestinian brother? In having to make the choice between unconditional love for their Palestinian brethren or Israeli ethno-nationalism, which path is more consistent with the message of Jesus?

[Latreia]

None of that matters anyhow because Jesus never required our "unconditional support for the State of Israel". He DID require unconditional love towards other people, without political strings attached.

Would a pro-Israel Christian lay down their life for a Palestinian Catholic? Would they wash the feet of a Palestinian brother? In having to make the choice between unconditional love for their Palestinian brethren or Israeli ethno-nationalism, which path is more consistent with the message of Jesus?


As a pro-Israel Christian, the Christian that I am would lay down her life to defend and protect the innocent who cannot defend themselves alone. Whether the accusing be parents, governments, or the world...

Destiny

You are either the Hunter or the Prey,
Your desire is either to inflict the wound or to heal it;

You will either give suffering to others
or seek to bring them consolation,

You will either delight in another's agony
or take them to your heart and share their fate;

Thus choose your destiny.

(2002)


http://www3.christianforums.com/images/icons/icon2.gif

[PattyOfurniture]

As a pro-Israel Christian, the Christian that I am would lay down her life to defend and protect the innocent who cannot defend themselves alone. Whether the accusing be parents, governments, or the world...

Destiny

You are either the Hunter or the Prey,
Your desire is either to inflict the wound or to heal it;

You will either give suffering to others
or seek to bring them consolation,

You will either delight in another's agony
or take them to your heart and share their fate;

Thus choose your destiny.

(2002)


http://www3.christianforums.com/images/icons/icon2.gif

Hi Latreia,
Do you actually attend a "United Methodist" church?,just curious.

[Latreia]

Hi Latreia,
Do you actually attend a "United Methodist" church?,just curious.

My folks were just Christians, not Methodists. When I was a child, there were about 6 different churches within a block of our house. Sundays I usually wandered into one of them. Have no idea why Mom did not go or take me....

Then for 25 years I was stuck with jobs that made me have to work Sundays and all holidays.

When I was married in 1993, DH and I stared attending the Methodist Church of his brother's family. All in his family were baptised in the Methodist Church. So there was I also baptized.

After I became crippled and disabled, I attended services as long as I could, until the pain and days of recovery made that sort of impossible.

That wonderful congregation is still greatly beloved by me, and just missed so much.


You cannot imagine how lovely they all were to me. Lots of Senior Citizens, some couples married 20, 30, 50 years, same church all those years.

:sigh:

[PattyOfurniture]

My folks were just Christians, not Methodists. When I was a child, there were about 6 different churches within a block of our house. Sundays I usually wandered into one of them. Have no idea why Mom did not go or take me....

Then for 25 years I was stuck with jobs that made me have to work Sundays and all holidays.

When I was married in 1993, DH and I stared attending the Methodist Church of his brother's family. All in his family were baptised in the Methodist Church. So there was I also baptized.

After I became crippled and disabled, I attended services as long as I could, until the pain and days of recovery made that sort of impossible.

That wonderful congregation is still greatly beloved by me, and just missed so much.


You cannot imagine how lovely they all were to me. Lots of Senior Citizens, some couples married 20, 30, 50 years, same church all those years.

:sigh:
Thank you,
now i cannot go where I wanted to go....lol
anyhoo, the united Methodist church isnt very fond of the State of Israel(to the point of considering divestment).nor am I honestly.
As christians and Individuals we are free to believe as we wish it seems,with opinions not far behind.I just ask that you research (for yourself)the United Methodists opinion of Israel and perhaps what the Jews actually follow ....the "Talmud"(especially what "Talmud" says about Jesus and Mary)
May the God and Father of Jesus Christ Bless you and your family

[seashale76]

I am familiar with these beliefs having been raised as a premillenial dispensationalist. The secular state of Israel is seen as sacrosanct. To even entertain the idea that the Israeli government could be wrong about anything is akin to blasphemy. Nevermind that Israel actually has a rather large number of atheists living in its borders, and the people in power aren't Christian. They want American money and tourism, so they have no problem pandering to their beliefs by marketing to Evangelicals.

What they don't realize is that if Temple Worship comes back and Israel gets a truly Jewish government, they'll be some of the first to go. The penalty for being an idolator (which Orthodox Christians would be) is death. Lord have mercy, if it comes to that. They ignore or generally disdain Palestinian Christians.

Anyway, to them, there is no difference between Orthodox Christianity and Roman Catholicism. We are deceived and part of the Whore of Babylon and the one world government of the anti-Christ. It is a belief system that is focused so much on the rapture happening any moment that some people get depressed about living their lives in the mean time and find everything pointless. Wild conspiracy theories being attached to various scripture verses rule their lives. It is a belief of escapism. It's me and buddy Jesus and I'll be in heaven dancing around instead of suffering for my faith.

Go to any of the rapture websites and you'll see the level of fanaticism these dispensationalists exhibit.
The secular state of Israel is the Israel of the bible to them. Many become Judaizers and feel the need to be 'grafted' on to this version of Israel. They make exceptions for Jews who don't become Christians.

Sorry for my rant like post here. I feel very strongly about my former beliefs. It was spiritually damaging for me.