Jewish Objections To Yeshua:How to witness to a Jew[Messianic Perspective -no debate]

[Sunshine11]

It is a genuine PROBLEM when, for example, 85% of an MJ congregation is gentile. How is that Messianic JEWISH? When the MJ congregations are overwhelmed by gentiles who know next to nothing about Judaism, who do not think like Jews, who do not live like Jews, and who bring with them this protestant mind-set--this sort of abuse we see on this post is exactly the thing that happens all the time there. Forgive me for quoting again from Hashivenu, but they be mucho better minds than mine:



Hi...I'm new here and I wanted to join a forum to hopefully be learning more about how to answer some of the Jewish objections to Yeshua.

First a little backround. I am a Gentile. I am not Jewish as far as we know.

However...for a long time....I have felt a tug in my heart for the Jewish people and Israel.

In the late 90's, I was a part of a Messianic congregation that at the time was about half Jewish and half Gentile, with a Jewish Rabbi.

As a Gentile....I can say that I think it is strange when Gentiles try to "act" Jewish?

Nothing is wrong with learning the language or the customs because this helps us understand our Savior better. But there is nothing wrong with being Gentile.

We may not be the "chosen ones".....but God loves us all the same. We may not be the "Apple of His Eye"...but He still accepts us.

For that....I am one greatful person.

I believe with all my heart that Yeshua is the Messiah.

But I am talking to some Orthodox friends from another forum and I have no clue as to how to answer some of their objections to Him.

Such as.....God cannot come in the flesh.

How do you respond to that so that a Jewish person will understand?

I can talk about NT scripture....but when they think that is it flawed from the start...? How do you witness to them? :confused:

AND.....

I read that Jewish people do not prostelitize? Ok...then how do you spread the Word of God to the Nations of the world?

The disciples who were most certainly Jewish prostelitized all the time.

Any answers to these question would be much appreciated. :help:

I hope that I can make some friends here and really enjoy our conversations.

God bless. :angel:

Sunshine.

[ChazakEmunah]

Hi...I'm new here and I wanted to join a forum to hopefully be learning more about how to answer some of the Jewish objections to Yeshua.

First a little backround. I am a Gentile. I am not Jewish as far as we know.

However...for a long time....I have felt a tug in my heart for the Jewish people and Israel.

In the late 90's, I was a part of a Messianic congregation that at the time was about half Jewish and half Gentile, with a Jewish Rabbi.

As a Gentile....I can say that I think it is strange when Gentiles try to "act" Jewish?

Nothing is wrong with learning the language or the customs because this helps us understand our Savior better. But there is nothing wrong with being Gentile.

We may not be the "chosen ones".....but God loves us all the same. We may not be the "Apple of His Eye"...but He still accepts us.

For that....I am one greatful person.

I believe with all my heart that Yeshua is the Messiah.

But I am talking to some Orthodox friends from another forum and I have no clue as to how to answer some of their objections to Him.

Such as.....God cannot come in the flesh.

How do you respond to that so that a Jewish person will understand?

I can talk about NT scripture....but when they think that is it flaud from the start...? How do you witness to them? :confused:

AND.....

I read that Jewish people do not prostelitize? Ok...then how do you spread the Word of God to the Nations of the world?

The diciples who were most certainly Jewish prostelitized all the time.

Any answers to these question would be much appreciated. :help:

I hope that I can make some friends here and really enjoy our conversations.

God bless. :angel:

Sunshine.
Wow. Ummm... Sunshine, this is the Orthodox area. If you would like to know why we object to Je*us, then perhaps you can start a thread in the debate forum, as we (non-Messianics) can speak more freely there.

[GerTzedek]

Hi Sunshine.

First, thank you for your healthy understanding both of the integrity of Israel, and of your own value as a gentile.

You are welcome to enter into debate if you wish; there is a debate forum. However, I don't recommend it. No one will hear unless they are ready to hear, and the odds are sky high they will not listen. Why? Because Christians have no credibility with Jews. Let me elaborate just a bit.

1. Christians usually know so little about Judaism, they usually sound like idiots.

2. Christians have a tendency to evangelize from a "neediness" perspective, and Jews are not needy. Observant Jews have rich, full spiritual lives, even lives which make most self-professed Christians look shallow. It irritates me when I come across Christians that have this attitude of "Ummmm! They don't believe in Jeeeeesus!" when in fact it is only by the grace of God that they themselves are saved!!! I can imagine God in heaven looking down in disgust saying, "Oh, just SHUT UP!"

3. Christians are often anti-Judaism, meaning that they treat the Mosaic covenant as if it is some terrible horrible burden, when in fact it is God's gift! As the psalmist says, it is sweeter than the honey and the honeycomb.

4. Although Christians are not always anti-Zionist, they CAN be, and when they are, it REALLY rubs raw. How many of us know groups that are "Peace and Justice" in the name of Christ, but always seem to zoom in on Israel? And if its only Israel that they obsess about, are they really peace and justice, or are they just anti-zionist? And who are Christians to be passing judgment on Israel anyway? These are the Christians who remained silent as six million went up in ashes and smoke, and they have the audacity to speak out against Israel????

5. Worst of all, the Christian church, via supersessionist doctrine, fostered the anti-Semitism that persecuted and killed UNCOUNTED Jews. There is hardly a Jewish family that doesn't have some personal story of some relative being hacked to death by a Cossack wearing the cross, or a survivor of a death camp, or the like. The cross which you hold dear, which to you is a symbol of the love of God, is to these a symbol of fear and persecution and death.

Before you open your mouth to "witness," you need to truly, deeply, appreciate what I've said to the core of your being. You need to know the hurt. You need to hurt for that hurt. You need to feel the urge to correct the past.

And you need to understand a great deal more about Judaism. When you feel awe for it, you have learned something at least.

And even then, don't say anything unless they really want to hear. Sometimes they'll even ask questions, but they aren't wanting to hear the answers. After 2000 years of Jesus in the face, down the throat, choking, don't you think a break is in order? Wait until they really and truly want to hear.

Do me a favor? If anything I've said makes sense to you, pass it on.

Shalom

[Henaynei]

GerTzedek

:thumbsup: I don't know how that could have been said better

[visionary]

Since this is a sincere question... I will treat it as such... as I did not detect a single indication that you wanted this thread to be treated like a debate.

If I understand you right, you would like OT verses that show that Messiah [God] in the Flesh is prophesied to come. Good question....

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. ... but then every human on earth has a problem with Yeshua until they meet Him.

[Sunshine11]

Gertzedek...

Thank you for that kind reply. I've been a part of a Jewish forum for about two years now, and have made some good friends. So I totally understand that there is this division between Jews and Christians.

I do not go there to prostelitize about my faith. It is not open for that.

I go there to learn things from a Jewish perspective.

Its been good. There are some people that are very dear to me that I have met in that place.

I don't mean to come to this forum and cause any problems. I thought this section was an all Messianic forum.

Look...I think there are good things I can learn from you all.

Hopefully we can come together in peace. I just want to talk about things and ask questions if I have any.

By the way...when you said...

1. Christians usually know so little about Judaism, they usually sound like idiots.

2. Christians have a tendency to evangelize from a "neediness" perspective, and Jews are not needy. Observant Jews have rich, full spiritual lives, even lives which make most self-professed Christians look shallow. It irritates me when I come across Christians that have this attitude of "Ummmm! They don't believe in Jeeeeesus!" when in fact it is only by the grace of God that they themselves are saved!!! I can imagine God in heaven looking down in disgust saying, "Oh, just SHUT UP!"

3. Christians are often anti-Judaism, meaning that they treat the Mosaic covenant as if it is some terrible horrible burden, when in fact it is God's gift! As the psalmist says, it is sweeter than the honey and the honeycomb.

4. Although Christians are not always anti-Zionist, they CAN be, and when they are, it REALLY rubs raw. How many of us know groups that are "Peace and Justice" in the name of Christ, but always seem to zoom in on Israel? And if its only Israel that they obsess about, are they really peace and justice, or are they just anti-zionist? And who are Christians to be passing judgment on Israel anyway? These are the Christians who remained silent as six million went up in ashes and smoke, and they have the audacity to speak out against Israel????

5. Worst of all, the Christian church, via supersessionist doctrine, fostered the anti-Semitism that persecuted and killed UNCOUNTED Jews. There is hardly a Jewish family that doesn't have some personal story of some relative being hacked to death by a Cossack wearing the cross, or a survivor of a death camp, or the like. The cross which you hold dear, which to you is a symbol of the love of God, is to these a symbol of fear and persecution and death.

Before you open your mouth to "witness," you need to truly, deeply, appreciate what I've said to the core of your being. You need to know the hurt. You need to hurt for that hurt. You need to feel the urge to correct the past.

And you need to understand a great deal more about Judaism. When you feel awe for it, you have learned something at least.

And even then, don't say anything unless they really want to hear. Sometimes they'll even ask questions, but they aren't wanting to hear the answers. After 2000 years of Jesus in the face, down the throat, choking, don't you think a break is in order? Wait until they really and truly want to hear.

Do me a favor? If anything I've said makes sense to you, pass it on.

Shalom


I know I just came to this forum and jumped right in ....but as I said...I have been conversing with Orthodox (frum) for quite awhile and we have good conversations. I have several dear Jewish friends.

I tend to take their defense and say these things to Christians who mean to only evangelize.

Jews can see right through that. They know if you really care about them or if your there to only tell them about Yeshua.

Thanks for your advice.

God bless.

Am Yisroel Chai!

Chloe

[Sunshine11]

Also....you would be shocked if I told you who I learn from.

One of the founders of the Messianic movement from the 70's is a good friend of mine.

I also have been studying the History and have tried to teach other Christians about the roll the Church played in anti-semetism.

How terribly anti-semetic the church fathers were.

I agree...and I think that God was saying or thinking alot more than just "shut up".

I think this angered Him.

These people could not have known God in order to do or say the hateful things they did against the Jews.

Chloe

[Sunshine11]

Visionary...

Thank you so much for your answer.

God bless.

I hope you all don't mind my being here.

If I am bothering anyone....I will leave.

That is the last thing I would want to do.

Chloe

[Yehoshua]

Order Dr. Michael Brown 4 vol set: Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus. Try amazon.com.

[GerTzedek]

Also....you would be shocked if I told you who I learn from.

One of the founders of the Messianic movement from the 70's is a good friend of mine.

I also have been studying the History and have tried to teach other Christians about the roll the Church played in anti-semetism.

How terribly anti-semetic the church fathers were.

I agree...and I think that God was saying or thinking alot more than just "shut up".

I think this angered Him.

These people could not have known God in order to do or say the hateful things they did against the Jews.

Chloe
You have a heart of gold.

Shalom

[ChazakEmunah]

I only suggested taking it to the debate thread as the rules are more relaxed there on what we can say. I have no intention of dissuading you from your beliefs, but in that forum, you can bring up questions, give your POV, and then we can give the Jewish POV. If you're agreeable to that, I promise to be nice. :)

[muffler dragon]

Sunshine:

Why do you have a motivation to "witness" to Jews? What do you need to "witness" to them about?

Just asking.

[Sunshine11]

GerTedek....

Baruch HaShem. Thank you.

Shema Yisra'el Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai ehad!

I will try to reply more later to this thread. I'm just not supposed to be sitting up.

Chloe

[Sunshine11]

Why do you have a motivation to "witness" to Jews? What do you need to "witness" to them about?




Hi Muffler Dragon....

Good question. I'm learning more and more all the time.

And I thank this special Orthodox friend I have for it.

I sence Gods great love for this one every time we talk.

He truely has a beautiful heart and deep love for God.

This is really a good question and I want to post a reply later...but it really is a whole other thread possibly.

In otherwords....Are the Jewish people saved by grace and Gods convenant with them apart from Yeshua?

Am Yisroel Chai!

Chloe

[Ivy]

Sorry I didn't read the whole thread--I'm in a hurry today......and some folks will find me a real lame-o with this topic.....but my policy is to try and behave the way I believe Yeshua/Jesus would behave, with love & compassion etc.

If any Jewish person asks me what I think about Yeshua/Jesus, I'll tell them......and if they don't ask, I won't.

I don't think handing out tracts, for instance, goes over real well....but people should do what they think best, I guess.

[Sunshine11]

Hi again Muffler....

I'm still really new here. So I don't know if everyone here is Messianic/Christian or not.

Please forgive me if anything I bring up upsets anyone.

I have to ask you.....do you also take the New Testement into consideration for following God?

My experience is that most who follow Judaism do not for obvious reasons.

I can give you scripture from those books to indicate that..yes....the Jewish people do have to still accept Yeshua in order to be saved.

But then we have Gods everlasting covenant and great love for the people.

I wish I had a friend of mine here. He is a very good teacher.

I don't do so well.

What are your thoughts?

Sunshine.

[Jim47]

Moved to debate sub forum as requested.

[muffler dragon]

Hi again Muffler....

I'm still really new here. So I don't know if everyone here is Messianic/Christian or not.

Please forgive me if anything I bring up upsets anyone.

Personally, it takes a lot to get me upset; therefore, don't get too worried. There are certain topics that flip my buttons, but I don't think you'll hit on one any time soon. :D

I have to ask you.....do you also take the New Testement into consideration for following God?

I used to. At present, I view the Christian testament like an encyclopedia. It may have some useful information, but overall, it's not factual.

My experience is that most who follow Judaism do not for obvious reasons.

For clarification, I am a Noachide. Since I imagine you don't know what that is, I will simply say it is a Judaic POV for Gentiles.

I can give you scripture from those books to indicate that..yes....the Jewish people do have to still accept Yeshua in order to be saved.

But would you be able to show such a thing from the Jewish Bible? :P

But then we have Gods everlasting covenant and great love for the people.

I wish I had a friend of mine here. He is a very good teacher.

I don't do so well.

What are your thoughts?

Sunshine.

I've been around the yard a few times with different belief structures. Personally, I find that no one needs a mediator to have a personal relationship with G-d. I also find that I alone am responsible for my actions. These are simply a disclosure instead of an instigation to debate, so please don't think I'm coming down on you. You're more than entitled to believe what you do. Overall, I like your presentation style. It's pleasant, humble and honest. This place could use more of that.

Please let me know if you have any questions/comments/concerns with what I have written above.

[Bananna]

Two objections that have been given to me:

God cannot change, God becoming man would be a changed.

Yeshua had not human father and therefore could not be the branch of David.

How one aswers these objection may differ.
bananna

[ChazakEmunah]

Two objections that have been given to me:

God cannot change, God becoming man would be a changed.

Yeshua had not human father and therefore could not be the branch of David.

How one aswers these objection may differ.
bananna
Right. First, we believe that HaShem specifically states in the Tanakh that he is not a man. So we certainly have a reason for holding that up as an objection to belief in Je*us. Second, we believe that it is avodah zerah to worship any thing other than HaShem. This would include an image (picture or statue), or any created being. So far, these are two major issues that we are not willing to budge on. Third, according to C*hristian interpretation, Je*us did not have a human father. For a person to qualify as the Mashiakh, they must be descended from the male line of David. There's more, but I'll let people respond to these points for now.

[GerTzedek]

In otherwords....Are the Jewish people saved by grace and Gods convenant with them apart from Yeshua?
It's a good question, and I'm glad you are asking it. It goes without saying that Jews are saved by the grace of G-d -- He has graciously saved Israel over and again, as a people and as individuals.

Your question really hinges on the last prepositional phrase, "apart from Yeshua." In response, I would like to ask you some questions.

When Joseph sustained his brothers in Egypt, did they know who sustained them? Was it necessary for them to know who was saving them, in order for Joseph to keep them alive?

You have been touched by the authentic relationship with G-d your Orthodox friend has. So may I assume you believe that G-d... hmmm.... at least sometimes hears the prayers of Jews?????? he he (I know, I'm a meanie!) And can I also assume that you believe that Yeshua is sole mediator? Do you imagine, then, that the Father says, "Oh, pardon me, Jesus, could you move out of the way, I need to hear the prayer of this Jew"????

Do you think it is at all possible that Yeshua may already be in their midst? After all, he is one of them, a Jew. Can you think of a more natural place for him to be than, say, hanging out with his own people in the synagogue?

I'll await your answers before I say more.

[GerTzedek]

Yeshua had not human father and therefore could not be the branch of David.For the record, the lineages of both his mother and step-father are recorded. Both trace back to David. His mother's verifies that he is a true descendent. His step-father's grants him the legal status of that house.

[ChazakEmunah]

For the record, the lineages of both his mother and step-father are recorded. Both trace back to David. His mother's verifies that he is a true descendent. His step-father's grants him the legal status of that house.
Okay, so let me explain why this is one of the reasons why we don't accept Je*us.

First, in order for a person to be the Mashiakh (ben-David) they must be directly descended from David through their father. [The Mashiakh ben-Yosef is the same, except that he is descended from Yosef and not David.]

Second, Halakha states that if a Jewish man adopts a Jewish child, the tribal lineage of that child is still determined by his/her birth father and not that of the adoptive father. An adoptive father cannot confer his tribal status to the child he adopted.

So, as Je*us had no earthly father, he cannot possibly qualify as the Mashiakh. The mother can only confer Jewishness, but it is the father who confers tribal lineage.

[Zahava]

Since this is a sincere question... I will treat it as such... as I did not detect a single indication that you wanted this thread to be treated like a debate.

If I understand you right, you would like OT verses that show that Messiah [God] in the Flesh is prophesied to come. Good question....

... but then every human on earth has a problem with Yeshua until they meet Him.


Isaiah 9:6

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (KJV)

Is someone who says he has not come to bring peace someone we can call "Prince of Peace?"


RASHI
For a child has been born to us
and… called his name
To him who increased the authority
authority
and for peace
and for peace
from now and to eternity
the zeal of the Lord of Hosts
shall accomplish this

[mpossoff]

For the record, the lineages of both his mother and step-father are recorded. Both trace back to David. His mother's verifies that he is a true descendent. His step-father's grants him the legal status of that house.

A study I did showed about biblical adoption the same way Jacob adopted Ephraim and Manessah as his sons, although they were Joseph's sons. Therefore they became brothers of Joseph.

You can apply this in the same manner with Yeshua and then it make sense.

Marc

[Henaynei]

Is someone who says he has not come to bring peace someone we can call "Prince of Peace?" It depends on the peace of which you are speaking....

1 John
14:27 "What I am leaving with you is shalom -- I am giving you my shalom. I don't give the way the world gives. Don't let yourselves be upset or frightened.
14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

[GerTzedek]

Gee Zahava, I've never met a Jewish missionary before. You have a lot of zeal.

[Sunshine11]

Hi again Muffler..

I'm just now getting around to reading your reply. I've been dealing with some medical problems so sorry this is late.

I do happen to know all about a Noahide. I know more than you realize. But yet I know very little.

I was told by some Jewish friends that I should be a Noahide....but I don't see the purpose.

What made you want to be a Noahide?

And what part of the NT do you think is false? All of it?

I'm only asking so that I can get a better understanding of where your at.

I talk with a guy from time to time who believes the same...but when I point out Isaiah 53 to him...he says that could apply to anyone. Not so.

So about your question....to be honest....I am not 100% sure about my feelings on the issue.

Is there special grace that the Jewish people have because of the covenant that God has with them?

OR...do they also have to come believe in Jesus as the Son of God and repent for thier sins in order to go to heaven.

Gentiles must repent and become born again in order to be saved...but you see....I am going on NT scripture.

So I don't think anything I say would convince someone who does not believe in the NT scriptures.

I'm really open to talk with you about it. I would love to hear your opinions on what I just said.

Sunshine

[Sunshine11]

GerTedek....

You wrote:


It's a good question, and I'm glad you are asking it. It goes without saying that Jews are saved by the grace of G-d -- He has graciously saved Israel over and again, as a people and as individuals.

Your question really hinges on the last prepositional phrase, "apart from Yeshua." In response, I would like to ask you some questions.

When Joseph sustained his brothers in Egypt, did they know who sustained them? Was it necessary for them to know who was saving them, in order for Joseph to keep them alive?

You have been touched by the authentic relationship with G-d your Orthodox friend has. So may I assume you believe that G-d... hmmm.... at least sometimes hears the prayers of Jews?????? he he (I know, I'm a meanie!) And can I also assume that you believe that Yeshua is sole mediator? Do you imagine, then, that the Father says, "Oh, pardon me, Jesus, could you move out of the way, I need to hear the prayer of this Jew"????

Do you think it is at all possible that Yeshua may already be in their midst? After all, he is one of them, a Jew. Can you think of a more natural place for him to be than, say, hanging out with his own people in the synagogue?

I'll await your answers before I say more.



Hahaha....I really love to read your posts.

You have a wonderful sence of humor. Does God hear us...does He hear the Jews. Of course.

Your statement is what I have been pondering in my mind.

Again...this goes to the question of the validity of the NT. I keep hearing that its not valid. Can anyone tell my why that is?

Also...Jesus said...nobody comes to the father but by me.

So...I would take that to believe that even though we can talk to God and He hears our prayers....in order to go to heaven.....we must come through Jesus to do so.

Because of the price he paid for our sins...we go through Him (speaking of Gentiles...but does it also apply to the Jew?)

I am curious. This is a Messianic forum....correct?

We are believers in Yeshua...right?

How do we think then that we can go to heaven by any other means?

As I said....for the Jews....I question this. Jesus said he came specifically for them. Why would He say this if they could be saved by another means?

I'm not sure how many in this forum believe in the validity of the NT.

Sunshine

[GerTzedek]

GerTedek....
Does God hear us...does He hear the Jews. Of course.
...

Again...this goes to the question of the validity of the NT. I keep hearing that its not valid. Can anyone tell my why that is?

...

I am curious. This is a Messianic forum....correct?

We are believers in Yeshua...right?


Well, you answered one of my many questions. I'll continue to wait, before I comment further. I do have a lot to say from scripture. But I prefer folks to step back and think first. Please go check my questions again.

Your comment about "hearing that the NT is not valid" is unthoughtful. All the believers here accept the validity of the B'rit Chadashah, and those Jews who are present who are not believers, and who are VERY WELCOME TO BE HERE, do not.

Yes, this IS an MJ forum, but not everyone in this forum is MJ. Further, not everyone self-identified as MJ is normative to the movement. There are a couple individuals who don't post on MJ topics at all, and I sometimes wonder if their icon isn't for show. Anyhow, you can see we have quite a spread.

Let me make one thing clear about MJ theology. Messianic Judaism teaches that through the grace of God by the saving atonement of Yeshua, gentiles may now be People of God; still gentiles, but part of the commonwealth of Israel, grafted on. That means the integrity of Israel is STILL INTACT. There is nothing wrong, or cast off, or needy, about the Israel to which gentiles are grafted onto. Messianic Jews are the point of contact, as they are both Ekklesia and Israel -- they connect Ekklesia TO Israel. To disparage Israel is to disparage the Root, the source through which nutrition flows to the entire tree. So please, be VERY careful what you say here regarding our Jewish brethren who are not Yeshua believers. Paul very SPECIFICALLY warns against arrogance towards these Jews in Romans 11 -- his warning should be taken to heart.

Shalom

[stranger]

Did you ever consider that strangers attach themselves to Israel andf are treated as though members of the tribes [descendants of Jacob/Yacov]?

Also did you ever trace the history and future of the House of Israel ? ... these are true descendants of Jacob/Yacov , but never accepted Judaism, never became Jews , rather they worshipped pagan gods and so God scattered them amongst the gentiles... so their descendants , millenia later, do not know that they are not gentiles! ...

Could it bring a whole new understanding of scripture once one realises that the House of Israel is non-Jewish, and that Jesus/Yeshua actually says that he was sent by God first to them alone ? :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am [U]not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Is it not so then that scripture itself, far from forgetting these paganised non-Jewish children of Israel , actually points out that a remnant of these are the very ones who make the Jews jealous with their knowledge of the messiah of Israel :-

Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

There truly are not many nations of this earth who are not a people ,

Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

... there is in fact ONLY ONE such holy chosen nation in scripture .... that is then exactly what happened to the House of Israel, they became 'lost sheep' as described in the prophets , ceased to be a people , yet God has a special role for their descendants as the firstfruit saints who become sons of God, of the order of Melchisedec [Melchizedek] , priests and kings in the kingdom of God, ministering to and ruling over billions with Jesus/ Yesgua as king of these kings, and high priest over these perfected priests

Jesus' quest then shows that he is the messiah, come to begin the rejoining with the Jews of the House of Israel from amongst the gentiles ... the scripture is rather clear then, but neither christianity nor Judaism follows it as a WHOLE , each focussing only on NT or OT and forgetting that they are ONE truth TOGETHER ... in fact half the verses in Jesus' REVELATION from God are simply restating verses in the OT prophets !!

This redeeming of the paganised House of Israel is no less than the fulfillment of God's promise through Moses AND exactly why there is a new covenant with the House of Israel and the Jews [Heb 8:8-12, Jer 31:31-34] in which Israel's two, yet-divided Houses are FORGIVEN without meriting it [GRACE] , no-one else is mentioned as receiving grace in the new covenant [since none but the firstfruits need grace. most men are freed from sin by death - Romans 6:7] :-

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a [I]kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

One cannot understand the scripture then without looking at it ALL as one truth of God... and the result is remarkable, God has indeed deluded traditions in both christianity and Judaism for His purpose in the earth according to his saints of the NT! :-

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

And His reason for doing so, merely the humbling of Satan and those who put themselves up as authorities on His words, but do not follow ALL His words as one truth ... leaving bits of scripture out to follow just parts is simply private interpretation and has led to immense division of beliefs amongst men... we know only one at mos can be true !! [thus we have the proof of God's delusionm already being with us in religious tradition, if one wants the truth of God then, one must REPROVE to ALL the scripture of God, not leave so much out...

[A_Pioneer]

GerTedek....

You wrote:

Hahaha....I really love to read your posts.

You have a wonderful sence of humor. Does God hear us...does He hear the Jews. Of course.

Your statement is what I have been pondering in my mind.

Again...this goes to the question of the validity of the NT. I keep hearing that its not valid. Can anyone tell my why that is?

Also...Jesus said...nobody comes to the father but by me.

So...I would take that to believe that even though we can talk to God and He hears our prayers....in order to go to heaven.....we must come through Jesus to do so.

Because of the price he paid for our sins...we go through Him (speaking of Gentiles...but does it also apply to the Jew?)

I am curious. This is a Messianic forum....correct?

We are believers in Yeshua...right?

How do we think then that we can go to heaven by any other means?

As I said....for the Jews....I question this. Jesus said he came specifically for them. Why would He say this if they could be saved by another means?

I'm not sure how many in this forum believe in the validity of the NT.

Sunshine
Didn't Yeshua come as the word of God?

Read Jn. 5:24! Something strange going on in this verse!
Don't you think? He who hears the word and believes in the one who sent him has by-passed judgement(my, oh my) and has eternal life. WOW!(just like a Christian)
Only Christians say all of them will be judged. Poor Christians!

Don't you find contradiction here with your belief that only by accepting Jesus no jew can be saved?
I do! So we must believe the Messiah when he speaks and understand what he is saying. I am afraid you have heard this half truth so many times it became truth to you.

If you are a Messianic, you don't go to the Christian heaven. The New Jerusalem comes to you.

Why would He say this if they could be saved by another means?

He says there is another way and Sha'ul verifies this in Ro. 11 many years after Yeshua came and went back to the Father, "A deliverer will come out of Zion and banish all ungodliness fron Israel and all Israel shall be saved.

Even the Catholic Church has come to realize that G-d has the salvation of the Jews well in hand.

Shalom

[stranger]

Even the Catholic Church has come to realize that G-d has the salvation of the Jews well in hand.


It is only a remnant 144,000 who are redeemed at Jesus' return [Rev 7:3-8] and they are not all Jewish, many of them are the lost sheep of the House of Israel, who REFUSED Judaism and worshipped pagan gods until God baptised them to cause them to cease from sin under His new covenant [Jer 31:31-34] which is not only with Jews, but with the lost house fo israel, [aganised and living as gentiles amongst the gentiles for millenia already....

Thus MOST Jews also died sinners, not saints, and cannot live again until the second ressurection... they will indeed be the first to be resurrected since God requires all Israel as a holy nation ,re-united at last, to serve under the messiah as priests and kings in the kingdom come on earth [the new earth then, for Jesus' kingdom is NOT of THIS earth] - Exodus 19:6 , 1Pet 2:9-10 ,etc

The distinction then is that those who really follow the emssiah follow him IN PERFECTION of love. as saints , not as SINNERS!

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This then the mistaken idea of Catholicism which has carried over even paradoxically into Messianic Judaism ... the pretence that sinners do not have to be perfected in love before translation to spirit... Jesus' way that he showed all men is PERFECT love, no sin after baptism into all truth [John 16:13] ... one thus has to understand 'baptism of fire' that comes after spirit baptism. the TRIAL of faith [given by God] which perfects love :-

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

[ChazakEmunah]

Did you ever consider that strangers attach themselves to Israel andf are treated as though members of the tribes [descendants of Jacob/Yacov]?

Also did you ever trace the history and future of the House of Israel ? ... these are true descendants of Jacob/Yacov , but never accepted Judaism, never became Jews , rather they worshipped pagan gods and so God scattered them amongst the gentiles... so their descendants , millenia later, do not know that they are not gentiles! ...

Could it bring a whole new understanding of scripture once one realises that the House of Israel is non-Jewish, and that Jesus/Yeshua actually says that he was sent by God first to them alone ? :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am [U]not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Is it not so then that scripture itself, far from forgetting these paganised non-Jewish children of Israel , actually points out that a remnant of these are the very ones who make the Jews jealous with their knowledge of the messiah of Israel :-

Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

There truly are not many nations of this earth who are not a people ,

Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

... there is in fact ONLY ONE such holy chosen nation in scripture .... that is then exactly what happened to the House of Israel, they became 'lost sheep' as described in the prophets , ceased to be a people , yet God has a special role for their descendants as the firstfruit saints who become sons of God, of the order of Melchisedec [Melchizedek] , priests and kings in the kingdom of God, ministering to and ruling over billions with Jesus/ Yesgua as king of these kings, and high priest over these perfected priests

Jesus' quest then shows that he is the messiah, come to begin the rejoining with the Jews of the House of Israel from amongst the gentiles ... the scripture is rather clear then, but neither christianity nor Judaism follows it as a WHOLE , each focussing only on NT or OT and forgetting that they are ONE truth TOGETHER ... in fact half the verses in Jesus' REVELATION from God are simply restating verses in the OT prophets !!

This redeeming of the paganised House of Israel is no less than the fulfillment of God's promise through Moses AND exactly why there is a new covenant with the House of Israel and the Jews [Heb 8:8-12, Jer 31:31-34] in which Israel's two, yet-divided Houses are FORGIVEN without meriting it [GRACE] , no-one else is mentioned as receiving grace in the new covenant [since none but the firstfruits need grace. most men are freed from sin by death - Romans 6:7] :-

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a [I]kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

One cannot understand the scripture then without looking at it ALL as one truth of God... and the result is remarkable, God has indeed deluded traditions in both christianity and Judaism for His purpose in the earth according to his saints of the NT! :-

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

And His reason for doing so, merely the humbling of Satan and those who put themselves up as authorities on His words, but do not follow ALL His words as one truth ... leaving bits of scripture out to follow just parts is simply private interpretation and has led to immense division of beliefs amongst men... we know only one at mos can be true !! [thus we have the proof of God's delusionm already being with us in religious tradition, if one wants the truth of God then, one must REPROVE to ALL the scripture of God, not leave so much out...
Please take your British Israelism elsewhere. Replacement Theology is NOT welcome here.

[Zahava]

Gee Zahava, I've never met a Jewish missionary before. You have a lot of zeal.

Ger, you are a riot! I like you I like you I like you!

what can I say? something remained from my past faith eeh?:P

[A_Pioneer]

It is only a remnant 144,000 who are redeemed at Jesus' return [Rev 7:3-8] and they are not all Jewish, many of them are the lost sheep of the House of Israel, who REFUSED Judaism and worshipped pagan gods until God baptised them to cause them to cease from sin under His new covenant [Jer 31:31-34] which is not only with Jews, but with the lost house fo israel, [aganised and living as gentiles amongst the gentiles for millenia already....

Thus MOST Jews also died sinners, not saints, and cannot live again until the second ressurection... they will indeed be the first to be resurrected since God requires all Israel as a holy nation ,re-united at last, to serve under the messiah as priests and kings in the kingdom come on earth [the new earth then, for Jesus' kingdom is NOT of THIS earth] - Exodus 19:6 , 1Pet 2:9-10 ,etc

The distinction then is that those who really follow the emssiah follow him IN PERFECTION of love. as saints , not as SINNERS!



This then the mistaken idea of Catholicism which has carried over even paradoxically into Messianic Judaism ... the pretence that sinners do not have to be perfected in love before translation to spirit... Jesus' way that he showed all men is PERFECT love, no sin after baptism into all truth [John 16:13] ... one thus has to understand 'baptism of fire' that comes after spirit baptism. the TRIAL of faith [given by God] which perfects love :-You are deceived! End of story!
My G-d is a just G-d, He changes not! To tepeat the words of Yeshua, "You do greatly err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of G-d."

Replacement Theology is anti-christ!

[stranger]

Please take your British Israelism elsewhere. Replacement Theology is NOT welcome here.

I have no idea what you're talking about...

[stranger]

You are deceived! End of story!
My G-d is a just G-d, He changes not! To tepeat the words of Yeshua, "You do greatly err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of G-d."

Replacement Theology is anti-christ!

It is I who quoted the scripture... and Jesus was not talking about me when he said that, so you are misquoting him...

besides that i have no idea what you are talking about, please stick to the subject of the discussion and leave your religious politics out of it ... just use the scripture as I have done...

[Bananna]

It is only a remnant 144,000 who are redeemed at Jesus' return [Rev 7:3-8] and they are not all Jewish, many of them are the lost sheep of the House of Israel, who REFUSED Judaism and worshipped pagan gods until God baptised them to cause them to cease from sin under His new covenant [Jer 31:31-34] which is not only with Jews, but with the lost house fo israel, [aganised and living as gentiles amongst the gentiles for millenia already....

Thus MOST Jews also died sinners, not saints, and cannot live again until the second ressurection... they will indeed be the first to be resurrected since God requires all Israel as a holy nation ,re-united at last, to serve under the messiah as priests and kings in the kingdom come on earth [the new earth then, for Jesus' kingdom is NOT of THIS earth] - Exodus 19:6 , 1Pet 2:9-10 ,etc

The distinction then is that those who really follow the emssiah follow him IN PERFECTION of love. as saints , not as SINNERS!



This then the mistaken idea of Catholicism which has carried over even paradoxically into Messianic Judaism ... the pretence that sinners do not have to be perfected in love before translation to spirit... Jesus' way that he showed all men is PERFECT love, no sin after baptism into all truth [John 16:13] ... one thus has to understand 'baptism of fire' that comes after spirit baptism. the TRIAL of faith [given by God] which perfects love :-
You have an odd way of seeming to contradict yourself. I would think your quote here
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
How are you defining Israel?
How are you defining the appearing of Jesus Christ?

Are you actually saying you believe that 144,000 are not Jewish men who have never known women? That is what the scripture says. 144,000 all Jewish, righteous men that have never known a woman.

We have a shadow of the promise and at Christs appearing we will be New in the spirit as through fire refined. That goes for all who know messiah's name and all who do not.

JMO

bananna

[muffler dragon]

Hi again Muffler..

Hello Sunshine.

I'm just now getting around to reading your reply. I've been dealing with some medical problems so sorry this is late.

I wish you well and hope for an end to the problems.

I do happen to know all about a Noahide. I know more than you realize. But yet I know very little.

I was told by some Jewish friends that I should be a Noahide....but I don't see the purpose.

What made you want to be a Noahide?

It wasn't so much a desire as a path that I started upon. As I was studying Judaism, I knew there were a number of considerations that would hinder a conversion. Therefore, I just kept studying and was turned in the direction of Noachide. Long story short, it brought my heart a great amount of joy to realize that I had been following the Noachide Laws all of my life. Granted, there are foul ups; however, it just rung the same chord as my heart.

And what part of the NT do you think is false? All of it?

I find it to be rather "atrocious" when it comes to understanding first century Pharisaic Judaism. I don't trust a word that Paul utters. I find the Gospel of John to be too gnostic for me to handle. I hate the Letter to the Hebrews as the author slaughters context. The rest of it I view as an encyclopedia. Something to reference, but nothing of inspiration.

I'm only asking so that I can get a better understanding of where your at.

Feel free to ask anything. I was a Christian for over twenty years. I was involved in apologetics for seven years before getting into forums.

I talk with a guy from time to time who believes the same...but when I point out Isaiah 53 to him...he says that could apply to anyone. Not so.

The Suffering Servant is, indeed, an interesting passage. I don't believe it's messianic; however, I am a firm believer that Jesus didn't fulfill it even if it were.

So about your question....to be honest....I am not 100% sure about my feelings on the issue.

Is there special grace that the Jewish people have because of the covenant that God has with them?

What do you mean by "special grace"?

OR...do they also have to come believe in Jesus as the Son of God and repent for thier sins in order to go to heaven.

Neither I nor Jews believe in the Christian concept of Heaven. However, to answer your question directly, there is no need for a mediator in my view or Judaism.

Gentiles must repent and become born again in order to be saved...but you see....I am going on NT scripture.

So I don't think anything I say would convince someone who does not believe in the NT scriptures.

I'm really open to talk with you about it. I would love to hear your opinions on what I just said.

Sunshine

I will gladly discuss anything that you desire.

[stranger]

You have an odd way of seeming to contradict yourself. I would think your quote here


I am not contrdicting myself, merely trying, unsucessfully with you it would seem, to unravel the misconceptions of modern Jewish and Christian religions...

What do you see as contradiction? the House of Israel never accepted Judaism, never became Jews , were scattered by god amongst the gentile nations SEPARATELY from the Jews and still believing in their PAGAN gods, NOT in Judaism ... the House of Israel are indeed the LOST sheep of Israel , the Jews NEVER lost their IDENTITY as Israel, but the House of Israel did, disappeared into gentile nations .living as gentiles , worshipping gentile gods, losing all knowledge that they are NOT gentiles, but are true non-Jewish descendants of Jacob.... growing into a VAST inumerable disappeared people amongst all nations, but god had never forgotten them, just chastised them a little ... thus he sent Jesus/Yeshua, a Jew, to begin the task of FINDING AND GATHERING them ALONE from amongst all nations :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

There was no problem enlisting Jews as his disciples for the task to continue after his death , but it had to be set up so that it would continue for millenia, despite the intense persecution of all the saints all down the ages since then , and the setting up of religions run by sinners to compete with teh teachings of the saints, mass movements run by sinners, not saints
How are you defining Israel?

God does that in renaming Jacob as Israel, Israel are ALL jacob's descendants , although many of course died as sinners NOT believing in jesus as the messiah

How are you defining the appearing of Jesus Christ?

Again the scripture does that, not me , Jesus takes his few who went by the narrow strait way of saints in this life, at his return, but all men shall see him ... this is the beginning of the wrath of the Lamb on ALL sinners , none shall be in doubt

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I [B]never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Are you actually saying you believe that 144,000 are not Jewish men who have never known women? That is what the scripture says. 144,000 all Jewish, righteous men that have never known a woman.

Read it again, more carefully... The tribes of Joseph and Mannaseh were NEVER Jewish , always rejected Judaism and served other gods ... half the tribe of Levi also stayed with the House of Israel as priests and never accepted Judaism ... many from the other tribes were of the House of Israel too, some converted to Judaism and became Jews, complicating the picture ...

but there are no Jews today of the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh and Joseph [Joseph had other children yet was only ever a tiny separate tribe living in the outskirts in a few towns of the share given to Manasseh - 1 Chronicles 7:29]

Most of Israel the DISAPPEARED with the disappearance of the House of israel amidst the entile nations, but these many are not lost forever, God sent Jesus to begin finding them !

Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

Note that the NEW covenant is with this LOST nation [heb 8:8-12, Jer 31:31-34] AND with the Jews [house of Judah]

Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

We have a shadow of the promise and at Christs appearing we will be New in the spirit as through fire refined. That goes for all who know messiah's name and all who do not.

So is taught by sinners, but that is not what Jesus says in scripture, he states explicitly that he never KNEW any sinners and for them to depart from him at his return, despite that they call him Lord ...

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The salvation of the MANY sinners of this world thus come AFTERWARD, again as Jesus has said :-

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

So bthere we have the biggest mistake of religious history, one propagated in jewry and Christianity alike ... jesus' kingdom indeed GROWS from a seed PROGRESSIVELY, it is not all at once as religion claims... and none are lost just because they did not 'catch the first bus' , as catholic sinners would have us believe ... [ironic that of course, since their salvation as sinners is just the same as all other sinners]

If one knows the 'NAME' of Jesus then one knows what he is , that is the hebrew IDIOM which most men do not understand [although they know that the man named 'Smith' is descended from a blacksmith ... they just don't get it in scripture... so let me make it clear from the scripture, not from the idiom ...]

'Jesus' means 'saviour' ... that is clear then, he is the saviour of ALL men, not just of the two houses of Israel :-

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

[Clearly all men did NOT receiev ALL truth in this life though, as promised by Jesus to ALL who follow him - John 16:13 - most men die without knowing all truth, without being saved as yet by this life , because they were not baptised into all truh and so could not be baptsied with fire of trial... sinners simply fail trial of fith in love EVERY DAY , by being unloving to someone somewhere by their way of life... one cannot stop this , nor did God intend to do so now ]

BUT all men will receive all truth to be ABLE to live as saints in the new earth once Jesus' kingdom is established and the saints of Israel will be the priests and kings over the many as God has said :-

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Thus by NOT taking ALL scripture of God's promises seriously, men have invented many popular but false religions, some classified as christianities, some as judaisms... all differenet than scripture of God as a WHOLE [as it MUST be a whole to be ONE truth of god]

It is easy once one sees that the erfect priesthood MUST be FIRST, so god takes the FEW away from Satan FIRST ... then uses them to take all Israel from Satan , then uses the re-united nation of Israel as kings and priests tpo take back the masses of the gentiles from Satan... it is an awesome plan, like a ratchet mecanism, for once perefected in love and translated there is no more chance of turning back to sin ... it is God's way of humbling the proud sinners who run religion for power over men, and of humbling Satan himself, showing he is no god despite the desire to be above God ... this then is why the blasphemy of all man-made religion is such a poweful sign witnessed by scripture... by noting it we can understand what is going on, why God does not just save everyone now and all at once...

[TheRabbi]

Order Dr. Michael Brown 4 vol set: Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus. Try amazon.com.
I had a nice couple try to use that set on me. I tried to be nice, but they were crying by the time I finished taking it apart.

If you are dealing with a Jew that knows no Bible, no Judaism and no Christianity, you might have a shot.

[TheRabbi]

Wow. Ummm... Sunshine, this is the Orthodox area. If you would like to know why we object to Je*us, then perhaps you can start a thread in the debate forum, as we (non-Messianics) can speak more freely there.
At the top of this thread it says "Messianic forum>Messianic Debate Subforum".

How does that translate to being the orthodox area? Where is the non-messianic orthodox area?

I'm not trying to be sarchastic. I'm just new here and I haven't quite figured out how everything works.

[ChazakEmunah]

At the top of this thread it says "Messianic forum>Messianic Debate Subforum".

How does that translate to being the orthodox area? Where is the non-messianic orthodox area?

I'm not trying to be sarchastic. I'm just new here and I haven't quite figured out how everything works.
Shalom... This thread was previously in another sub-forum before it got moved here. That's all. :)

[ChazakEmunah]

I had a nice couple try to use that set on me. I tried to be nice, but they were crying by the time I finished taking it apart.

If you are dealing with a Jew that knows no Bible, no Judaism and no Christianity, you might have a shot.
Agreed! :thumbsup:

[stranger]

I read that Jewish people do not prostelitize? Ok...then how do you spread the Word of God to the Nations of the world?

The diciples who were most certainly Jewish prostelitized all the time.

Any answers to these question would be much appreciated. :help:

It is a mistake to think that God cannot speak for Himself to any and all that He needs to :-

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.[Y'shua Messiah]

Thus all that the Jewish disciples were given to do was to spraed the good news of the one king come to re-unite Israel's two divided Houses into one holy nation of kings and priets to rule and minister in his kingdom come Ex 19:6 [but he also said NOT come in THIS earth except in the hearts and minds of saints!]

Thus the saints can teach the truth because they know it [John 16:13], but modern religion is taught by sinners... unsurprisingly then modern Judaisms and chrsitainities are divided internally and externally and thus from the one truth of God.... what use religion without God's truth? ... strangely god ahs a very good use for apostate religion of sinners' creation, the humbling of both men and Satan .. but just try explaining the scripture that proves this to a religionist ! ...

[Sunshine11]

I stopped posting here for quite awhile because I'm afraid that in coming here and asking my questions I presented myself as someone who does not love the Jews or believes they are going to hell.

I don't believe that way. I know that God has a special covenant with the Jewish people. They are His chosen.

I'm thankful as a Gentile that we are grafted into the vine according to scripture.

But I have still wondered how Gods convenant ties into this.

Anyway....I never ment to cause any discord here.

I've been a part of a Jewish forum for going on two years now. It is interesting conversation at times.

Shalom to you all. God bless.

Sunshine

[Sunshine11]

The Rabbi...

I am so sorry for coming onto the Orthodox section. I guess I was also mistaken.

I most certainly understand how the Orthodox view Yeshua.

And I'm sorry for invading on your space.

God bless.

Sunshine

[ChavaK]

Anyway....I never ment to cause any discord here.

I just discovered this thread, but I do not see where
you caused any discord. You asked an honest
question in a polite and humble way, which is
greatly appreciated.
I hope you stay around...

[Bananna]

Sunshine I think you did fine.
You can't control what other say and think.

Always opens a can of worms when you ask question... sometimes you get fish sometimes you get your head chewed off, but hey without risk life can get boring.

Any new perspectives of your own?
bananna

[ORI]

Let me start by saying hello. From my experiences it would be in the evangelist best interest to carefully study or re-study the gospels. There are several verses that do not convey the same thought that many perceive as being the truth. Often these verses are overlooked rather than explained. Some Christians that I have encountered have been very rude in their attempt to “save me”. Their sincerity is noted but their understanding is limited.

[Sunshine11]

Well thank you both. I just was reading over my posts and I thought..wow...I kind of came off sounding quite forward and perhaps to some a little rude.

I guess sometimes we don't realize how we are sounding to others.

But I liked this forum...so I will just sit back and do some reading and try to get a better feel for the place before I post.

I misunderstood and thought this was the Messianic section. :doh:

I never want to offend anyone. So if anyone reads this and if I did that...I'm very sorry.

Shalom

Sunshine

[Sunshine11]

Hi Ori...

I understand what your saying. Some do come off that way.

That is why I was trying to get some answers from other Jewish believers to get their perspective.

As a Christian...well..you know where we believe our salvation lies in.

But I keep going back to the covenant that God has with the Jewish people and how that ties into salvation.

Yeshua said he came for the Jewish people specifically. Why did he say that?

Was Moses saved? Of course I think he was. David...a man after Gods own heart. Yes..I think he was saved. So....are some saved by their faith in God? I tend to believe that way. But then somebody says something else and I get confused again.

I don't know how I feel about it.

I think what my father told me when I was young is so very true...to learn the Word of God so that nobody can lead you astray.

Sunshine

[ChavaK]

Well thank you both. I just was reading over my posts and I thought..wow...I kind of came off sounding quite forward and perhaps to some a little rude.

I guess sometimes we don't realize how we are sounding to others.

But I liked this forum...so I will just sit back and do some reading and try to get a better feel for the place before I post.

I misunderstood and thought this was the Messianic section. :doh:

I never want to offend anyone. So if anyone reads this and if I did that...I'm very sorry.

Shalom

Again, I do not think anyone was offended. Although this
is a Messianic Forum, there are mostly Messianic Gentiles
here, with a few non-Messianic Jews thrown in, as well
as a couple of Messianic Jews, non-trinitarians, and
Christians. So in other words, a mish mash of people
post here....:wave:

[Sunshine11]

Thanks Chavek...

I always think the more the merrier. I enjoy having different views come together. It makes it more interesting.

Sunshine

[muffler dragon]

Sunshine:

One thing to put into perspective: there is no Christian concept of hell in Judaism. Therefore, there is no synonymous consideration of "salvation". Salvation in Judaism, for the most part, is temporal.

[hanavieliyahu]

deleted

[Sunshine11]

Hi Muffler....

Well I asked an Orthodox friend this evening about if Judaism says anything about hell and he said its called Gehinum in Judaism.

It sounds like what we call Gehenna. Which was a compartment of hell at one point I believe.

And thank you for your kind remark some months ago in your previous post.

I wasn't sure if I was coming back to this place...but I love the way everyone is willing to talk peacefully.

There is only this place and one other that I really enjoy coming to.

layla tov

Sunshine

[Sunshine11]

Welcome hanavielyahu. :angel:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9ZUTt8XINPY

[muffler dragon]

Hi Muffler....

Well I asked an Orthodox friend this evening about if Judaism says anything about hell and he said its called Gehinum in Judaism.

It sounds like what we call Gehenna. Which was a compartment of hell at one point I believe.

It's a shame that he wasn't more explanatory. Gehennah, in Judaism, is not an eternal consideration. Granted, no one knows for sure, but Jewish tradition holds that a soul spends up to 12 months there for cleansing/purification; then it rejoins the other souls. In addition to this, there is also the idea that the "really bad" people are annihilated, but who knows for sure. Ultimately, in Judaism, belief in a human being does not keep you from going to Gehenna. It's your own works/deeds that affect that outcome. This should further distinguish the two concepts.

And thank you for your kind remark some months ago in your previous post.

You're welcome.

I wasn't sure if I was coming back to this place...but I love the way everyone is willing to talk peacefully.

There is only this place and one other that I really enjoy coming to.

layla tov

Sunshine

May you enjoy your experience.

[A_Pioneer]

Hi Ori...

I understand what your saying. Some do come off that way.

That is why I was trying to get some answers from other Jewish believers to get their perspective.

As a Christian...well..you know where we believe our salvation lies in.

But I keep going back to the covenant that God has with the Jewish people and how that ties into salvation.

Yeshua said he came for the Jewish people specifically. Why did he say that?

Was Moses saved? Of course I think he was. David...a man after Gods own heart. Yes..I think he was saved. So....are some saved by their faith in God? I tend to believe that way. But then somebody says something else and I get confused again.

I don't know how I feel about it.

I think what my father told me when I was young is so very true...to learn the Word of God so that nobody can lead you astray.

Sunshine
Jn. 5:24 out of the mouth of Yeshua!
Kinda says to me that faith in Y H V H is the essential element in eternal life! Moshe, David, Gershom Solomon, Rabbi Chiam Richman and the list goes on.

Shalom

[Sunshine11]

It's a shame that he wasn't more explanatory. Gehennah, in Judaism, is not an eternal consideration. Granted, no one knows for sure, but Jewish tradition holds that a soul spends up to 12 months there for cleansing/purification; then it rejoins the other souls. In addition to this, there is also the idea that the "really bad" people are annihilated, but who knows for sure. Ultimately, in Judaism, belief in a human being does not keep you from going to Gehenna. It's your own works/deeds that affect that outcome. This should further distinguish the two concepts.


It would be very nice if that was the case and punishment was not eternal. Do you agree with that yourself? I tend to think it is eternal.

Here is some quotes from Yeshua.

Matt. 23:33 (all of Matt 23 is powerful words)

Luke 12:5

If hell is not a real place...then why did Yeshua describe it in such a way that we should fear it?

[debi b]

Hey Sunshine

it is nice to see you decided to stick around :wave:

[muffler dragon]

It would be very nice if that was the case and punishment was not eternal. Do you agree with that yourself? I tend to think it is eternal.

I do not believe in eternal punishment.

Here is some quotes from Yeshua.

Matt. 23:33 (all of Matt 23 is powerful words)

Luke 12:5

If hell is not a real place...then why did Yeshua describe it in such a way that we should fear it?

For background sake, I'll mention that I was a Christian for over 20+ years. So, I know all the connotations and Christian Scripture. The answer to your "why?" question can be answered in many different ways, but I'll simply say this: once I determined that I couldn't believe in Christianity anymore, the superfluous doctrines that don't line up with the Jewish Bible were summarily dismissed as well.

[Sunshine11]

Hi Deb B.

Thank you. I enjoyed the conversations. I just have been to a few places where insults are prevalent and I tell you....it does wear on a person after awhile. Not good.

I see your going to have a birthday. I pray you have a very very blessed one. http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd230/planetChloe/Happy-Birthday.gif

Sunshine

[Sunshine11]

Hi Muffler.

I think what the NT is all about is the Messiah.

So the question is ....is Yeshua the One.

For me....He is.

But I'm like you in the way that I am very drawn to the Jewish Roots of Christianity.

A Messianic man at a meeting recently was telling me one night that the first believers in Yeshua were called...The Way.

It was just another sect of Judaism. We have gone so far from those roots.

I would practice Judaism if I was not a believer in Yeshua....but in order to do that....I would have to deny him to be accepted.

I won't do that.

Again...thanks for the blessings. I hope that the ones I blessed will put them to good use. You were very generous to share so abundantly.

God bless you brother.

Sunshine

[muffler dragon]

Hi Muffler.

I think what the NT is all about is the Messiah.

Question: if this was the case; then do you believe that there would have been this much of a divergence in religions?

So the question is ....is Yeshua the One.

For me....He is.

Something to think about: understandng that there is a Second Coming/Advent in Christianity, have you ever considered why Jesus has a second coming to finish the work of the Jewish Messiah, but none of the other failed/false messiahs do?

But I'm like you in the way that I am very drawn to the Jewish Roots of Christianity.

'Tis true. My walk went:

Christian => Messianic => studier of Judaism => Noachide.

A Messianic man at a meeting recently was telling me one night that the first believers in Yeshua were called...The Way.

It was just another sect of Judaism. We have gone so far from those roots.

Coming back to my first question above: do you believe that the reasons for the distance between the two belief structures can be found within or without the Christian testament?

I would practice Judaism if I was not a believer in Yeshua....but in order to do that....I would have to deny him to be accepted.

I won't do that.

Why would you pick Judaism as your belief system if you were not a Christian?

Again...thanks for the blessings. I hope that the ones I blessed will put them to good use. You were very generous to share so abundantly.

God bless you brother.

Sunshine

You're welcome.

[Sunshine11]

Question: if this was the case; then do you believe that there would have been this much of a divergence in religions?


I was speaking of the Christian NT so divergance of Denominations...yes...but only because of interpretation of scripture. But they all focus around Yeshua. He is the reason they exist.

Something to think about: understandng that there is a Second Coming/Advent in Christianity, have you ever considered why Jesus has a second coming to finish the work of the Jewish Messiah, but none of the other failed/false messiahs do?

Failed Jewish Messiahs...there were several if I remember correctly. His second coming is not to finish the work. He finished it on the cross. The second coming is to conquer the anti-christ and set up His kingdom. Even if our scriptures did not teach of a second coming....He would still be the Messiah.


'Tis true. My walk went:

Christian => Messianic => studier of Judaism => Noachide.


Mine is... Christian => Messianic => studier of Judaism => still Messianic/Christian. :)

Coming back to my first question above: do you believe that the reasons for the distance between the two belief structures can be found within or without the Christian testament?

Sunshine:I would practice Judaism if I was not a believer in Yeshua....but in order to do that....I would have to deny him to be accepted.

I won't do that.

Why would you pick Judaism as your belief system if you were not a Christian?


The distance between the two faiths can be found in the Word of God if you read and believe what Yeshua and the disciples taught. The rest of the distance can be explained when you study the history of our faiths and how they diverged. Very interesting to read about it.

One of my Professors has had access to the Dead Sea Scrolls...and if I remember correctly....I don't think there were very many mistakes made in the scriptures. This was a few years ago when I heard him talk about it. But many Christian scholars have been looking at them for this purpose. I think we can trust what our scriptures teach. This could be a very long discussion actually. Why are there some differances?

I guess it boils down to what your opinion is of the Jewish disciples that followed Him. They were all practicing Jews. Even Nicodemus, one of the Pharisees came to believe Yeshua was the Messiah.

Do you believe in what Jesus tried to teach His people about the Word? They received Him not, the scriptures say. Yeshua tried to teach them the deeper meaning...but they refused what He was saying. This is why they had to leave the towns and go else where. This is why the Word came to the Gentiles.

I would choose Judaism as my faith if I was not a Christian because Judaism follows after the same God that I worship.

Again...after conversing with those in Judaism...I know what they believe...and some of the why. When I talk to God...I am talking to the God of the Jews. When I pray to Him...I am praying to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is also my God.

Shalom

Sunshine

[visionary]

I do not believe in eternal damnation either.... Satan will be reduced to ashes, it may take ages but the time will come when he is no more Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. .... he probably takes longer than the mere human can stand being burnt up since Satan is use to walking in the midst of fire....Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

[muffler dragon]

I was speaking of the Christian NT so divergance of Denominations...yes...but only because of interpretation of scripture. But they all focus around Yeshua. He is the reason they exist.

Okay.

Failed Jewish Messiahs...there were several if I remember correctly.

There are 100s, if not thousands.

His second coming is not to finish the work. He finished it on the cross.

I wasn't differentiating between salvific work and overall Jewish Messianic themes. As you'll see, there are many that have no been fulfilled yet.

The second coming is to conquer the anti-christ and set up His kingdom.

Jewish Messiah Criteria (http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-criteria.html)

First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)

He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)


As you can see, there are a number of items that are incomplete according to Jewish tradition.

Even if our scriptures did not teach of a second coming....He would still be the Messiah.

I understand this point of view; however, from a Judaic POV it's "all-or-nothing". The title is not given to someone who has done a small percentage.

I guess it boils down to what your opinion is of the Jewish disciples that followed Him. They were all practicing Jews. Even Nicodemus, one of the Pharisees came to believe Yeshua was the Messiah.

Understood. However, even according to Josephus, there was a multitude that followed Theudas just a decade after Jesus' death as well. Messianic figures wouldn't be afforded any time in history if they didn't have followers.

Do you believe in what Jesus tried to teach His people about the Word? They received Him not, the scriptures say. Yeshua tried to teach them the deeper meaning...but they refused what He was saying.

Truth be told, this is one of the issues that I have with the Christian testament. Very few of Jesus' sayings are novel ideas/concepts. Thus, if it was just his teachings; then there would have been no problem accepting his point of view.

This is why they had to leave the towns and go else where. This is why the Word came to the Gentiles.

It's my belief that the Jewish Messiah does nothing for Gentiles except for tangential considerations. Should Messiah come in my lifetime; then I will experience world peace, world-wide knowledge of Torah, and so on. But other than that, the Messiah provides nothing for me, because I don't need a mediator (and I don't believe that the Jewish Messiah IS a mediator according to a Judaic POV).

I would choose Judaism as my faith if I was not a Christian because Judaism follows after the same God that I worship.

I follow the G-d of Israel, but I'm not a Jew. ;)

Again...after conversing with those in Judaism...I know what they believe...and some of the why. When I talk to God...I am talking to the God of the Jews. When I pray to Him...I am praying to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is also my God.

I can understand this sentiment.

[Sunshine11]

Trusting the Bible | Prophecy and Probability


http://www.proofdirectory.com/videoindex.htm

I'll answer your post later today...but for now....here is a video for you (see hyper link above) that talks about some of the Messianic prophesies. I have not checked the accuracy out for myself yet...but I plan to.

I guess in short....anyone can pick apart the validity of anything to try to disprove it. But there are equally arguments to prove its accuracy.

Am Yisroel Chai!

God bless.

Sunshine

[debi b]

Hi Deb B.

Thank you. I enjoyed the conversations. I just have been to a few places where insults are prevalent and I tell you....it does wear on a person after awhile. Not good.

SO TRUE! I do think that recently there have been some very good exchanges about why people understand things differently and there has been a great deal of respect communicating those ideas. It is a delight to see :thumbsup:

I see your going to have a birthday. I pray you have a very very blessed one. http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd230/planetChloe/Happy-Birthday.gif

Sunshine

thank you :D

[voicevoice]

.

[visionary]

There is one thing true...

Those that are first shall be last and those that are last shall be first.

Starting at Jerusalem... preaching

Blinders in part until the time of the gentile be fulfilled.

It is worthy cause to pray and witness to the stiffnecked.

[Skeeterbug]

Hi...I'm new here and I wanted to join a forum to hopefully be learning more about how to answer some of the Jewish objections to Yeshua.

First a little backround. I am a Gentile. I am not Jewish as far as we know.

However...for a long time....I have felt a tug in my heart for the Jewish people and Israel.

In the late 90's, I was a part of a Messianic congregation that at the time was about half Jewish and half Gentile, with a Jewish Rabbi.

As a Gentile....I can say that I think it is strange when Gentiles try to "act" Jewish?

Nothing is wrong with learning the language or the customs because this helps us understand our Savior better. But there is nothing wrong with being Gentile.

We may not be the "chosen ones".....but God loves us all the same. We may not be the "Apple of His Eye"...but He still accepts us.

For that....I am one greatful person.

I believe with all my heart that Yeshua is the Messiah.

But I am talking to some Orthodox friends from another forum and I have no clue as to how to answer some of their objections to Him.

Such as.....God cannot come in the flesh.

How do you respond to that so that a Jewish person will understand?

I can talk about NT scripture....but when they think that is it flaud from the start...? How do you witness to them? :confused:

AND.....

I read that Jewish people do not prostelitize? Ok...then how do you spread the Word of God to the Nations of the world?

The diciples who were most certainly Jewish prostelitized all the time.

Any answers to these question would be much appreciated. :help:

I hope that I can make some friends here and really enjoy our conversations.

God bless. :angel:

Sunshine.

There is some books out there titled Answering Jewish objections to Jesus which may help you. You can get them from Messianic Jewish Resourses

[Steve Petersen]

I read that Jewish people do not prostelitize? Ok...then how do you spread the Word of God to the Nations of the world?

The diciples who were most certainly Jewish prostelitized all the time.

Just leave them alone. I would leave the proselytizing to God.

[Sunshine11]

There is some books out there titled Answering Jewish objections to Jesus which may help you. You can get them from Messianic Jewish Resourses

Thank you Skeeter.

Those must be the books by Dr. Brown? I have them on order. I'm looking forward to reading them.

Thank you for the suggestion. :)

[Sunshine11]

Just leave them alone. I would leave the proselytizing to God.

Hi Steve....

But the disciples did not leave it to God. That is what Yeshua trained them to do. To go out into the world and preach the Gospel. :preach:

[Sunshine11]

There is one thing true...

Those that are first shall be last and those that are last shall be first.

Starting at Jerusalem... preaching

Blinders in part until the time of the gentile be fulfilled.

It is worthy cause to pray and witness to the stiffnecked.

I agree with you Vissionary.

I also know some "stiffnecked" Gentiles...lol.

But to the Jew first...then the Gentiles. Why do you think that is? :confused:

[Steve Petersen]

Hi Steve....

But the disciples did not leave it to God. That is what Yeshua trained them to do. To go out into the world and preach the Gospel. :preach:

That was 2000 years ago. There has been a lot of bad history in Jewish/Christian relations since then. Forced conversions of Jews and worse are part of our Christian heritage, like it or not.

[Sunshine11]

Yes....I know all about that history. :sigh:

But those bridges are being rebuilt....slowly...but they are being mended from time to time.

Nobody should ever "force" someone to believe in Yeshua. God would not want it that way either.

But we can talk about the things we have in common. And that is God.

There are even some Orthodox that embrace Evangelicals. That is a step in the right direction. :)

[visionary]

Has anyone seen in scripture what takes the blinders off? Is it an event? If so, what? As it says in scripture, all in the Lord's good time. Unless the Holy Spirit moves, the heart remains hardened.

I believe the two witnesses know and start at Jerusalem with the final good news. The eleventh hours message which is so powerful that the scales of self-preservation that blind/bind the judaism from acceptig their our Messiah come off, and then we will see a nation of priests unto Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah like this world has never seen before.... 144,000 of them.

[kivi]

Originally Posted by Sunshine11 http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=37654580#post37654580) I read that Jewish people do not prostelitize? Ok...then how do you spread the Word of God to the Nations of the world?

kivi says: 1: No person has to be Jewish to have a portion in Olam Habah. "All B'nai Israel and the Righteous of the Nations have a portion in Olam Habah." Therefore, the Word of G-d, for gentiles, is not to convert to Judaism or keep the 613 Mitzvahs of the Torah of Moshe Rabbeneu. The Word of G-d, for the Nations, is to keep the 7 Mitzvahs of the Torah of Noach. It is the job of B'nai Israel to be the teachers of the gentiles concerning the Torah of Noach. You can envision that the 613 Mitzvahs of the Torah of Moshe Rabbeneu are the teachers education courses [under-graduate and post-graduate levels and continuing education] for B'nai Israel to do its job in regards to teaching the Nations.

2: The model for B'nai Israel teaching the Nations is the same model that G-d set up for the Kohanim teaching the other 11 Tribes of B'nai Israel. There were many more Kohanim than necessary to serve at Temple. Those Kohanim not in active service at the Temple [there was a rotating schedule] lived in several Kohanim cities scattered [like university towns or college campuses] around Eretz Israel were the other 11 Tribes would go to learn about Torah. So, during the time of the Temple, Eretz Israel was in the middle of the known world, with Greece and Roma to the west, Egypt to the southwest, Syria to the northeast and Babylon and Persia to the east. All spokes around the hub. There are numerous records of gentiles making special trips to Jerusalem solely for the purpose of learning at the Temple and bringing korban. In fact, one of the recent finds in the Temple area is a sign telling gentiles not to go beyound a certain point in the gentile courtyard [remember all the important korban work at the Temple took place outside, under the sky]. There are also numerous records of the Nations around B'nai Israel having their ambassadors bringing korban to the Temple. A major part of the Succos services at the Temple were korban brought for the benefit of the 70 Nations.