Quick Question Concerning Mary

[xThirst4Godx]

I just wanted to ask about the Lutheran Church's stance towards Marian theology. Do you venerate her (not personally, as a church), or not?

[Aibrean]

Mary is Mary. A human that was blessed to be the vessel of Jesus.

[DaSeminarian]

I just wanted to ask about the Lutheran Church's stance towards Marian theology. Do you venerate her (not personally, as a church), or not?

Many of Luther's early writings referred to her the way Catholics do today, however, as he got older he saw her merely as the Blessed Mother of Jesus and not someone to be prayed to for intervention.

[Qoheleth]

I just wanted to ask about the Lutheran Church's stance towards Marian theology.




Article XXII of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, Lutherans testify thatblessed Mary prays for the church



The Apology goes on to state that Mary is worthy of the highest honors and desires to have her example considered and followed




Part I of the Smalcald Articles, Jesus Christ is confessed to have been born of the pure, holy, and ever virgin Mary






Article VIII of the Formula of Concord (Solid Declaration), Lutherans confess Mary, the most blessed virgin, did not conceive a mere, ordinary human being, but a human being who is truly the Son of the most high God, as the angel testifies. He demonstrated his divine majesty even in his mother's womb in that he was born of a virgin without violating her virginity. Therefore she is truly the mother of God and yet remained a virgin.






The Formula of Concord (Epitome) states in the clearest possible language the accession to the doctrine of Mary as the Theotokos: we believe, teach, and confess that Mary conceived and bore not only a plain, ordinary, mere man but the veritable Son of God; for this reason she is rightly called, and truly is, the mother of God.




Q

[PreachersWife2004]

Should a Catholic really be answering a question posed at Lutherans? I don't think so.

I'm a Lutheran, so let me answer you. We don't venerate her, we don't worship her, we don't pray to her. As to her virginity, she was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, but there is nothing to indicate that she remained a virgin after that. After all, she was married, why would she not enjoy the privileges of a married life? But nothing in the bible addresses this.

Mary truly was blessed to be the mother of Jesus. But apart from that, she is a normal human being, born into original sin just like all of us.

[Qoheleth]

But apart from that, she is a normal human being



Well, it sounds like the Lutheran Confessions say a bit more than being just a normal human being...



The Apology goes on to state that Mary is worthy of the highest honors and desires to have her example considered and followed




Part I of the Smalcald Articles, Jesus Christ is confessed to have been born of the pure, holy, and ever virgin Mary


Q

[Qoheleth]

born into original sin just like all of us


Indeed, Luther seemed to feel differently...


"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin."

(Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," December [?] 1527; from Hartmann Grisar, S.J., Luther, authorised translation from the German by E.M. Lamond; edited by Luigi Cappadelta, London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, first edition, 1915, Vol. IV [of 6], p. 238; taken from the German Werke, Erlangen, 1826-1868, edited by J.G. Plochmann and J.A. Irmischer, 2nd ed. edited by L. Enders, Frankfurt, 1862 ff., 67 volumes; citation from 152, p. 58)



and this was interesting to read...



"Luther's own theory on that was quite interesting. Conceived with original sin, yes, but at the infusion of the soul there was a cleansing by the Holy Spirit. He preached on this on the day of her conception (1523 I think) and he also repeated the theory years later - toward the close of his life in the 1540's. We are not bound by Luther's opinions, of course, but by the Sacred Scriptures. But we recognize that pious opinion has long held that the Most Holy Virgin (as our Symbols term her) was sinless in regard to actual sins as a special grace of God, but subject to death through the contagion of original sin from her birth." (Pr. Weedon - LCMS)


Q

[ByzantineDixie]

Hey, I saw that on Weedon's blog...I never knew of that reference before he posted!

For the Lutherans...there is an interesting post (http://thechildrenofgod.blogspot.com/2007/08/mary-mary-i-have-been-quite-contrary.html)on the Children of God blog written by the wife of a pastor in the LCMS. I love this woman. She has such a gentle spirit and an amazing ability to see life through the eyes of her little ones. I encourage any one, especially mothers, to check out her blog and read it regularly.

[NordicLutheran]

The truth is there is probably a very very small minority of Lutherans who pray, venerate, and worship her. This is viewed as a cult and the extreme majority of the Lutheran Church does not succumb to this. I'm guessing with the Orthodox Church this is different and maybe even the norm. Sad really. The one great thing about the Lutheran Church is that we had an amazing reformer, he taught us that we are not bound to his words but only to the holy scriptures.

[PreachersWife2004]

In the smalcald articles, the term ever virgin only appears once, and only in the Latin version (and few English versions). In the official German version it is not present.

As to the sinlessness of Mary, here is what the WELS teaches:

We believe that Mary was a sinner from the moment of her conception just as every other human being who is conceived by the union of sinful parents (John 3:6, Psalm 51:5). Jesus was preserved from original sin because he was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:20-21). The fact that Mary calls God her Savior (Luke 1:46-47) is an indication that she recognized her need for a Savior from her sins. Nothing in Scripture gives any indication that Mary was without sin in her conception, birth or life. The greeting of Gabriel ("Hail Mary, full of grace," as Catholic sources often translate) does not mean that she was sinless, but that God was showing her tremendous grace and favor in choosing her to be the mother of the Savior.

[Qoheleth]

In the official German version it is not present.


That has been debated by Lutheran theologians, clergy and what not for some time now.


Q

[ByzantineDixie]

I'm guessing with the Orthodox Church this is different and maybe even the norm. Sad really.

Just to correct an impression...The Orthodox do venerate the Theotokos and ask her for her intercessory prayers (which is often termed "pray to") but worship is saved only for God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not so sad at all. Actually if you read the comments in the blog article I referenced you can get a sense of what the Orthodox believe about Mary and veneration and worship.

[PreachersWife2004]

That has been debated by Lutheran theologians, clergy and what not for some time now.


Q

Got some sources on that?

[Qoheleth]

Luther, Melancthon, Chemnitz, Gerhard, Walther, Sasse and Pieper...

and many others have accepted the German translation (not just the Latin and the Latin has not been rejected either) to mean just that. Others argue it is not...so the debate continues


Q

[DaSeminarian]

Indeed, Luther seemed to feel differently...


"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin."

(Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," December [?] 1527; from Hartmann Grisar, S.J., Luther, authorised translation from the German by E.M. Lamond; edited by Luigi Cappadelta, London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, first edition, 1915, Vol. IV [of 6], p. 238; taken from the German Werke, Erlangen, 1826-1868, edited by J.G. Plochmann and J.A. Irmischer, 2nd ed. edited by L. Enders, Frankfurt, 1862 ff., 67 volumes; citation from 152, p. 58)



and this was interesting to read...



"Luther's own theory on that was quite interesting. Conceived with original sin, yes, but at the infusion of the soul there was a cleansing by the Holy Spirit. He preached on this on the day of her conception (1523 I think) and he also repeated the theory years later - toward the close of his life in the 1540's. We are not bound by Luther's opinions, of course, but by the Sacred Scriptures. But we recognize that pious opinion has long held that the Most Holy Virgin (as our Symbols term her) was sinless in regard to actual sins as a special grace of God, but subject to death through the contagion of original sin from her birth." (Pr. Weedon - LCMS)


Q


I think the difference is the terms venerate and worship. Venerate is a word denoting her special place in our faith and that she was the Blessed Virgin who bore our Savior. Does venerate mean to worship her or pray to her? no it does not.

[Aibrean]

We don't worship Martin Luther either :p

[Lupinus]

Yes, she was a very special person. One worthy of note etc.

She was however a human, and therefor not worthy of worship. And not being prayed to.

[Confess]

Article XXII of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, Lutherans testify thatblessed Mary prays for the church



The Apology goes on to state that Mary is worthy of the highest honors and desires to have her example considered and followed



Part I of the Smalcald Articles, Jesus Christ is confessed to have been born of the pure, holy, and ever virgin Mary

Article VIII of the Formula of Concord (Solid Declaration), Lutherans confess Mary, the most blessed virgin, did not conceive a mere, ordinary human being, but a human being who is truly the Son of the most high God, as the angel testifies. He demonstrated his divine majesty even in his mother's womb in that he was born of a virgin without violating her virginity. Therefore she is truly the mother of God and yet remained a virgin.

The Formula of Concord (Epitome) states in the clearest possible language the accession to the doctrine of Mary as the Theotokos: we believe, teach, and confess that Mary conceived and bore not only a plain, ordinary, mere man but the veritable Son of God; for this reason she is rightly called, and truly is, the mother of God.

Q


The first quote is taken out of context and is not XXII of the Augsburg Confession which talks about the Lord's Supper, not of the Saints. The true text comes from XXI of the Augsburg confession. Correctly put it says:
24] But where has this arrangement, to which he refers when he says that we ought to resort to the aid of the saints, been instituted by God? Let him produce an example or command from the Scriptures. Perhaps they derive this arrangement from the courts of kings, where friends must be employed as intercessors. But if a king has appointed a certain intercessor, he will not desire that cases be brought to him through others. Thus, since Christ has been appointed Intercessor and High Priest, why do we seek others? [What can the adversaries say in reply to this?]

25] Here and there this form of absolution is used: The passion of our Lord Jesus Christ, the merits of the most blessed Virgin Mary and of all the saints, be to thee for the remission of sins. Here the absolution is pronounced on the supposition that we are reconciled and accounted righteous not only by the merits of Christ, but also by the merits of the other saints

While it is true that Mary is the Mother of Jesus (she bore him and mothered him did she not?), this does not mean that we worship her, pray to her or make her to be more divine then she really is.

Like Moses, Adam and Eve and so many others in the Bible, Mary was a chosen vessel to do a work for God that no other human has ever done. For this she should be highly regarded and considered "most blessed".

As for her ever virginity. That is something that many disagree on, yet is not considered a doctrine of the church.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Marian dogma according to GCC....

The Blessed Virgin Mary is the Theotokos, the God-bearer, Mother of God, and to be revered as such. To state otherwise is heresy.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was perpetually virgin and I venerate her as such but am perfectly comfortable with those who don't. Mere pious opinion.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is the Queen of Heaven, as the mother of the Davidic King Jesus Christ, just as the mothers, not the brides, of Israelite kings were considered the queen. But while not merely pious opinion, I can understand how this can make people uncomfortable.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was not immaculately conceived and not without sin, as that violates the universality of Paul's statement that all have sinned.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was taken into heaven following her death and I venerate her assumption, but this is mere pious opinion and I am perfectly comfortable with those who feel otherwise.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is not Co-Redemptrix and not Co-Mediator. Christ alone is redeemer of our souls and mediator between us and the Father.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is to be venerated (dulia, not latria, the worship of God alone) in icons and hailed as queen (as in the rosary), but should not be saught out for intercessory prayer as that constitutes communion with the dead.

Anyway, that's my perspective.

[DaRev]

The Blessed Virgin Mary was perpetually virgin and I venerate her as such but am perfectly comfortable with those who don't. Mere pious opinion.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was taken into heaven following her death and I venerate her assumption, but this is mere pious opinion and I am perfectly comfortable with those who feel otherwise.

Your "dogmas" are neither Biblical nor in line with Lutheran theology.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Your "dogmas" are neither Biblical nor in line with Lutheran theology.
Um.... by dogmas do you mean pious opinion? Because I specifically stated that.

Oh, and tell that to Luther.

[DaRev]

Um.... by dogmas do you mean pious opinion? Because I specifically stated that.

Oh, and tell that to Luther.

Luther never said that Mary was "purpetually a virgin" and the dogma concerning the Assumption wasn't made until 1950. I think Luther was long dead by then.

[Melethiel]

Marian dogma according to GCC....

The Blessed Virgin Mary is the Theotokos, the God-bearer, Mother of God, and to be revered as such. To state otherwise is heresy.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was perpetually virgin and I venerate her as such but am perfectly comfortable with those who don't. Mere pious opinion.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is the Queen of Heaven, as the mother of the Davidic King Jesus Christ, just as the mothers, not the brides, of Israelite kings were considered the queen. But while not merely pious opinion, I can understand how this can make people uncomfortable.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was not immaculately conceived and not without sin, as that violates the universality of Paul's statement that all have sinned.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was taken into heaven following her death and I venerate her assumption, but this is mere pious opinion and I am perfectly comfortable with those who feel otherwise.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is not Co-Redemptrix and not Co-Mediator. Christ alone is redeemer of our souls and mediator between us and the Father.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is to be venerated (dulia, not latria, the worship of God alone) in icons and hailed as queen (as in the rosary), but should not be saught out for intercessory prayer as that constitutes communion with the dead.

Anyway, that's my perspective.
Yeah, what GCC said.
DaRev - what you're thinking with the 1950 date was the RCC pronouncement on the Assumption. What GCC is talking about is what has been historically labeled the "Dormition" of Mary, celebrated on August 15.

[Tertiumquid]

"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin."

Dear Q,

Please explain to me why the very quote was removed in reprints after 1529.

Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," December [?] 1527; from Hartmann Grisar, S.J., Luther, authorised translation from the German by E.M. Lamond; edited by Luigi Cappadelta, London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, first edition, 1915, Vol. IV [of 6], p. 238; taken from the German Werke, Erlangen, 1826-1868, edited by J.G. Plochmann and J.A. Irmischer, 2nd ed. edited by L. Enders, Frankfurt, 1862 ff., 67 volumes; citation from 152, p. 58

Sure by all means, get Grisar's book on this. look up what Grisar says of the quote:

“As Luther’s intellectual and ethical development progressed we cannot naturally expect the sublime picture of the pure Mother of God, the type of virginity, of the spirit of sacrifice and of sanctity to furnish any great attraction for him, and as a matter of fact such statements as the above are no longer met with in his later works.”

Regards,
James Swan

[Tertiumquid]

and this was interesting to read...

"Luther's own theory on that was quite interesting. Conceived with original sin, yes, but at the infusion of the soul there was a cleansing by the Holy Spirit. He preached on this on the day of her conception (1523 I think) and he also repeated the theory years later - toward the close of his life in the 1540's. We are not bound by Luther's opinions, of course, but by the Sacred Scriptures. But we recognize that pious opinion has long held that the Most Holy Virgin (as our Symbols term her) was sinless in regard to actual sins as a special grace of God, but subject to death through the contagion of original sin from her birth." (Pr. Weedon - LCMS)

No.

Luther's position is thus:

1. The Holy Spirit was present at Christ’s conception to ensure his sinlessness.


2. During Christ’s conception, the Holy Spirit sanctified Mary so that the child would be born with non-sinful flesh and blood.

Luther held:

"Mother Mary, like us, was born in sin of sinful parents, but the Holy Spirit covered her, sanctified and purified her so that this child was born of flesh and blood, but not with sinful flesh and blood. The Holy Spirit permitted the Virgin Mary to remain a true, natural human being of flesh and blood, just as we. However, he warded off sin from her flesh and blood so that she became the mother of a pure child, not poisoned by sin as we are…For in that moment when she conceived, she was a holy mother filled with the Holy Spirit and her fruit is a holy pure fruit, at once God and truly man, in one person."

Regards,
James Swan

[Qoheleth]

While it is true that Mary is the Mother of Jesus (she bore him and mothered him did she not?), this does not mean that we worship her, pray to her or make her to be more divine then she really is.


OK yet, this is not the tenor of the Confessions and many other writings of those that wrote the Confessions...that is where we find the context behind the words


Part I of the Smalcald Articles, Jesus Christ is confessed to have been born of the pure, holy, and ever virgin Mary

The Apology goes on to state that
Mary is worthy of the highest honors and desires to have her example considered and followed


"{Mary is the} highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ... She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough." [Martin Luther; sermon given on Christmas, 1531]

and so on and so on


Q

[Qoheleth]

Tert,

You present no conflict.

Is there anything else?


Oh well...this is different


1. The Holy Spirit was present at Christ’s conception to ensure his sinlessness

Please explain


Q

[Confess]

OK yet, this is not the tenor of the Confessions and many other writings of those that wrote the Confessions...that is where we find the context behind the words


Part I of the Smalcald Articles, Jesus Christ is confessed to have been born of the pure, holy, and ever virgin Mary

The Apology goes on to state that
Mary is worthy of the highest honors and desires to have her example considered and followed


"{Mary is the} highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ... She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough." [Martin Luther; sermon given on Christmas, 1531]

and so on and so on


Q
First, I went through all the Smalcald articles searching for Mary's name and found none. So you will have to help me there.
Second, calling Mary the highest woman etc is no different then how we Christians and Jews denoted Abraham. We even have Jesus illustrating Abraham as if he were God himself with Lazarus in his bossom. So to praise her so highly (which she deserves being that she was used by God is such an enormous way) is no big deal to me.

We also do not say that we preach, teach and confess Mary to be ever virgin which means that it is not a doctrine of the church although some do believe that she was ever virgin. That is fine. Our salvation does not depend on how long she was a virgin.

[Qoheleth]

The first quote is taken out of context and is not XXII of the Augsburg Confession which talks about the Lord's Supper, not of the Saints. The true text comes from XXI of the Augsburg confession. Correctly put it says:

OK...

The Ap asserts that Mary prays for the Church, but does not receive souls in death, etc (Ap. XXI:27). In this, Mary is not unique, however, for the Ap. asserts that the faithful dead pray for the Church in general (Ap XXI:9) The Ap also notes that the AC argument is that our churches do not *require* invocation ("Our Confession affirms only this..." Ap XXI: 10) because it 1) has neither command; 2) promise; 3) nor example in the Sacred Scriptures. But the Ap also contains the enigmatic statement "This new invocation in the Church is unlike the invocation of individuals." (Ap XXI:13)

Dr. Piepkorn takes this later to imply that what the Confessors were objecting to was precisely forcing consciences to participate in invocation of the saints when this is practiced "in the Church" - that is, in her liturgy - vs. the private piety of individuals who may believe that the saints, who indeed no longer "know in part" and
who surround us as a "great cloud of witnesses" and whom we confess to be interceding for us anyway, may also be able to hear our requests for their intercessions. But to place invocation in the Divine Service makes those who do not share this pious opinion and who are unsure it is pleasing to God (or believe it is displeasing) actually sin by joining in what they do not believe. (This seems to be the sense of Ap XXI:10-13)

Further, we might also helpfully distinguish between the invocation of the saints that pleads their merits and asks them to do this or that (as though they were God!) with the invocation that consists merely in asking their intercessions on our behalf. (Cf. "Here we will show that the adversaries truly make the saints not just intercessors, but atonement makers, that is, mediators of redemption", Ap. XXI:16) From the standpoint of justification, the first is an abomination, not to mention a violation of the first commandment; the second, however, is no more of a danger to faith than asking you to pray for me, which, of course, I do ask you to do.






Q

[Tertiumquid]

Tert,You present no conflict.
Is there anything else?

Yes, there is a conflict. The quote you provided stated:

"Conceived with original sin, yes, but at the infusion of the soul there was a cleansing by the Holy Spirit."

Luther, after 1527, did not believe that at MARY's birth, her soul was cleansed by the Holy Spirit.

Please explain

Well, I'm headed to bed. Feel free to read my blog entry on this here:

Research I Would Toss Into The Elbe: Luther Believed in the Immaculate Conception of Mary (http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/12/research-i-would-toss-into-elbe-luther.html)

Regards,
James Swan

[Qoheleth]

Our salvation does not depend on how long she was a virgin.


Yet ultimately this results in ecclesiological and Christological implications...no?

Q

[Tertiumquid]

"{Mary is the} highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ... She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough." [Martin Luther; sermon given on Christmas, 1531]

Produce a context. Thanks.

And... the next line of this quote says, "...Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures."

I have never seen a complete context for this quote. I'm tempted to say the quote found its way to cyberspace via a certain Catholic apologist.

That being said, it remains to be explained what Luther means by "holiness personified" and "honor her enough". Saying nice things about Mary does not equal the Immaculate Conception or Marian Devotion.


James Swan

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Luther never said that Mary was "purpetually a virgin" and the dogma concerning the Assumption wasn't made until 1950. I think Luther was long dead by then.
Really now? Funny thing that...

"Scripture does not quibble or speak about the virginity of Mary after the birth of Christ, a matter about which the hypocrites are greatly concerned, as if it were something of the utmost importance on which our whole salvation depended. Actually, we should be satisfied simply to hold that she remained a virgin after the birth of Christ because Scripture does not state or indicate that she later lost her virginity... But the Scripture stops with this, that she was a virgin before and at the birth of Christ; for up to this point God had need of her virginity in order to give us the promised blessed seed without sin." -The Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. ... Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." -Luther's Works, vol. IV, pp. 319-320.

"Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that." -LW, vol. 1, pg. 30

" Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers." -ibid

And I could provide quotes from Calvin, Zwingli, and Wesley as well. And I'm sure as not going to be more low church than them.

And the assumption? Mel's right. I'm refering to the celebration of her dormition and subsequent ascension, as testified as early as the fifth century.

Plus, Luther does indeed leave this option open: " There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know." from the Weimar edition, v. 10, pg. 268

I'm thoroughly within the bounds of Lutheranism. Indeed, on the point of perpetual virginity, I'm closer to Luther.

[DaRev]

Yeah, what GCC said.
DaRev - what you're thinking with the 1950 date was the RCC pronouncement on the Assumption. What GCC is talking about is what has been historically labeled the "Dormition" of Mary, celebrated on August 15.

I got it. I once again misread. I saw the word "assumption" and got all panicky and such. :sorry:

[DaRev]

Part I of the Smalcald Articles, Jesus Christ is confessed to have been born of the pure, holy, and ever virgin MaryAgain, the term "semper virgo" or "ever virgin" do not appear in the original Smalcald Articles and thus is a straw man. You can stop quoting that now.

[DaRev]

Really now? Funny thing that...

"Scripture does not quibble or speak about the virginity of Mary after the birth of Christ, a matter about which the hypocrites are greatly concerned, as if it were something of the utmost importance on which our whole salvation depended. Actually, we should be satisfied simply to hold that she remained a virgin after the birth of Christ because Scripture does not state or indicate that she later lost her virginity... But the Scripture stops with this, that she was a virgin before and at the birth of Christ; for up to this point God had need of her virginity in order to give us the promised blessed seed without sin." -The Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. ... Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." -Luther's Works, vol. IV, pp. 319-320.

"Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that." -LW, vol. 1, pg. 30

" Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers." -ibid

And I could provide quotes from Calvin, Zwingli, and Wesley as well. And I'm sure as not going to be more low church than them.

OK. But show me in the Confessions, which is the teaching of the Church? We don't hold that everything Luther wrote is necessarily confessional.

(As much as I hate to do this:doh:, I have to quote Edial, "Luther was out of his element when he deviated from the Scriptures"... or something like that.)

[Confess]

Again, the term "semper virgo" or "ever virgin" do not appear in the original Smalcald Articles and thus is a straw man. You can stop quoting that now.
No wonder I had such a time finding it.

It was never there!!!

[Melethiel]

OK. But show me in the Confessions, which is the teaching of the Church? We don't hold that everything Luther wrote is necessarily confessional.

(As much as I hate to do this:doh:, I have to quote Edial, "Luther was out of his element when he deviated from the Scriptures"... or something like that.)
He DID state it was pious opinion. We're allowed to have those, right?

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

OK. But show me in the Confessions, which is the teaching of the Church? We don't hold that everything Luther wrote is necessarily confessional.

(As much as I hate to do this:doh:, I have to quote Edial, "Luther was out of his element when he deviated from the Scriptures"... or something like that.)
Hey, you said that Luther said nothing about it. I showed otherwise. Now you quickly dodge over to the confessions?

Regardless, its an opinion. Something I privately hold. You know, something about adiaphora and all that...

[DaRev]

He DID state it was pious opinion. We're allowed to have those, right?

Yeah, I guess people have those. :D But he referred to them as his "dogmas" which puts a little more emphasis than does "pious opinion."

[DaRev]

Hey, you said that Luther said nothing about it. I showed otherwise. Now you quickly dodge over to the confessions?

Regardless, its an opinion. Something I privately hold. You know, something about adiaphora and all that...

Yes, and that was my mistake. I was thinking of the Confessions.


Are you intending on working toward a doctorate degree? I honestly and sincerely think you should. :thumbsup:

[Melethiel]

Yeah, I guess people have those. :D But he referred to them as his "dogmas" which puts a little more emphasis than does "pious opinion."
Dogma:
1.a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.
2.a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.
3.prescribed doctrine: political dogma.
4.a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle.
GCC can confirm when he's coherent again, but I'm thinking he meant in the fourth sense, especially when combined with the adjective "personal."

[DaRev]

Dogma:
1.a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.
2.a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.
3.prescribed doctrine: political dogma.
4.a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle.
GCC can confirm when he's coherent again, but I'm thinking he meant in the fourth sense, especially when combined with the adjective "personal."

:thumbsup: Gotchya.

I gotta watch myself around you smartalecky kids. You're on the ball! ^_^

[Melethiel]

:thumbsup: Gotchya.

I gotta watch myself around you smartalecky kids. You're on the ball! ^_^
Yeah, the guy is dangerous...he's even got me reading political theory! :doh:

[DaRev]

Yeah, the guy is dangerous...he's even got me reading political theory! :doh:

Oooo... it must be love. :blush:

^_^ JK

[Qoheleth]

Again, the term "semper virgo" or "ever virgin" do not appear in the original Smalcald Articles and thus is a straw man. You can stop quoting that now.

And again, many Lutheran scholars disagree with you.


This also was quite interesting By Pastor Paul McCain (LC-MS)...


In the Lutheran blogosphere a bit of a storm has broken out over the question of whether or not the Blessed Virgin Mary remained ever virgin after giving birth to our Lord. This becomes such an emotional issue for a variety of reasons. The vast majority of Lutherans today, particularly laypersons, have never even heard of the belief, long held in the Christian church, and believed by Lutherans for many generations after the Reformation, that Mary remained a virgin after giving birth to our Lord. This belief is known by Latin shorthand as "semper virgo" or "always virgin." The Lutheran Confessions simply assume it to be true. Martin Luther, Martin Chemnitz and virtually all Lutherans in the 16th century and throughout the Age of Lutheran Orthodoxy believed it. The first president of The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod, Dr. C.F.W. Walther firmly and passionately believed it, taught it, and confessed it.

It wasn't really until the 20th century came along that belief in the semper virgo, by Lutherans, began to be widely questioned and now, today, some take great offense at the idea that Mary remained every virgin, even regarding the semper virgo with open disdain and hostility. Could it be that heights of Marian idolatry that reachd its zenith in the 20th century caused many to shy away from the semper virgo?

So, fast forward to recent years. A renewed passion for the Lutheran Confessions among pastors in the Missouri Synod has caused many to take a second look at the Semper Virgo and wonder why it is that a belief taken for granted by the Lutheran Church in its Confessions and in its greatest theologians fell out of such favor, so rapidly in the 20th century.


Do the Lutheran Confessions in fact put forward the semper virgo as a clearly articulated doctrinal assertion? C.F.W. Walther thought they did. Francis Pieper, his heir and successor in the position of both chief dogmatician of the Synod, and also serving as president of The LCMS, took a bit more of a moderating position. His views on the issue of the semper virgo are set forth in his great dogmatics text "Christian Dogmatics."




Finally, I am reticent to dismiss the semper virgo quickly simply because of the fact that so many of my fathers in the faith did embrace it, even while at the very same time strenously, and clearly, rejecting the cult of Mary that infested Medieval Romanism. What the Lutheran Confessions regard as a "given" on an issue like this does give me reason not to reject the semper virgo , even while I do retain some reservations.


Q

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Yes, and that was my mistake. I was thinking of the Confessions.


Are you intending on working toward a doctorate degree? I honestly and sincerely think you should. :thumbsup:
Ha, danke. I just might.

Oooo... it must be love. :blush:

^_^ JK

Haha!

[Melethiel]

Oooo... it must be love. :blush:

^_^ JK
Bad DaRev. 40 lashes with a wet noodle for you. We're eloping tomorrow, but now you're not invited. ;) :P

[synger]

Bad DaRev. 40 lashes with a wet noodle for you. We're eloping tomorrow, but now you're not invited. ;) :P
Here's a picture of GCC galloping up on his horse to take Mel from her tower....


http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/online/collectors/graphics/small/eloping.jpg

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Here's a picture of GCC galloping up on his horse to take Mel from her tower....


http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/online/collectors/graphics/small/eloping.jpg
Haha! Are those rats crawling counterclockwise on the circumfrence?

And just to keep the thread on track, we'll have Ave Maria sung at the ceremony!

[DaRev]

And just to keep the thread on track, we'll have Ave Maria sung at the ceremony!

Well, I'm glad I'm not invited. I cry when I hear that. It was my mother's favorite hymn. That and Beethoven's "Pathetique" played on an organ.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Well, I'm glad I'm not invited. I cry when I hear that. It was my mother's favorite hymn. That and Beethoven's "Pathetique" played on an organ.
I can simpathize with Pathetique.

[Melethiel]

That and Beethoven's "Pathetique" played on an organ.
I take it you mean the second movement, because the first movement is definitely not something that would work well on organ. :eek:

[DaRev]

I take it you mean the second movement, because the first movement is definitely not something that would work well on organ. :eek:

Yes, the Adagio Cantabile.