Non Eucharistic Divine Service

[NordicLutheran]

What are the reasons for these? I'm getting really frustrated with them. Today in Church instead of going through a setting of the Divine service we just did a kind of liturgy from a morning prayer page or something like that. Are congregations like these in the norm of Lutheran Churches at this time? Because I would definitley convert to any kind of Lutheranism just to have a traditional divine service every Sunday.

[Kalevalatar]

Our congregation offers a mixture of services throughout the week, with emphasis always on communion services. Between the weekday communion services --the weekly morning, mid-day and evening communion services -- are springled worship services without the Lord's Supper -- service of the Word -- which concentrate on God's word and prayer. For instance, now that the new schoolyear is about to start, there will be special services of the Word for families and those heading back to schools. Since these are for kids who for the most part have not received their confirmation yet, that's the reason for omitting the Lord's Supper.

The main Sunday ten o'clock service is usually, though not always, a Mass. Since communion is offered throughout the week, one or two of the churches in our parish and/or in our neighbourhood may opt to hold a service of the Word instead, concentrating on a particular theme. However, if our own "home" church does not offer Mass on a particular Sunday, we can always partake communion service in one of the other churches in our area.

Does this make sense?

[ctay]

I think it depends on the church. The church I've been going to has communion every sunday. Their service is simple, basic liturgy. Something printed out in the bulletin. My mom's church bought the new hymnal's and are using them, they used to do something in the bulletins and went back to using the services in the hymnal. It was nice visiting and have them doing one of the services for communion that I grew up with. Went to a different church yesterday and they have the new hymnals and did the old communion service I grew up with. I loved it.

[DaSeminarian]

What are the reasons for these? I'm getting really frustrated with them. Today in Church instead of going through a setting of the Divine service we just did a kind of liturgy from a morning prayer page or something like that. Are congregations like these in the norm of Lutheran Churches at this time? Because I would definitley convert to any kind of Lutheranism just to have a traditional divine service every Sunday.

Non-Eucharistic Divine Services are often done to keep the flow of the church on the same page. I also prefer to do a Matin or Morning Prayer service in lieu of non-eucharistic DS.

[NordicLutheran]

Non-Eucharistic Divine Services are often done to keep the flow of the church on the same page. I also prefer to do a Matin or Morning Prayer service in lieu of non-eucharistic DS.
To keep the flow of the church on the same page? Please explain this because I don't understand it. :)

[DaSeminarian]

To keep the flow of the church on the same page? Please explain this because I don't understand it. :)

I guess what I mean is that some church congregations don't like change very much and so a Divine Service without communion is similar enough for them that it keeps them happy and flowing. Sometimes it is also because the Pastor doesn't want to learn a new service beyond the DS. So the flow (their ability to understnad the service) of the congregation from week to week is of little change and is therefore easier to follow.

[QuiltAngel]

What are the reasons for these? I'm getting really frustrated with them. Today in Church instead of going through a setting of the Divine service we just did a kind of liturgy from a morning prayer page or something like that. Are congregations like these in the norm of Lutheran Churches at this time? Because I would definitley convert to any kind of Lutheranism just to have a traditional divine service every Sunday.
Are you sayiing you want only the Divine Service with or without the Eucharist? If so, what is your objection to services such as Matins and Morning Prayer?

I would say that most of our churches who use the Divine Service stay with it for the reasons DaSeminarian stated. Me, I don't mind using some of the other services such as Matins.

[Confess]

We have Matins every morning, 5 days a week during the school year and partake of the Lord's Supper every Sunday (2 services). I think it is also practiced on Wednesday as well but am not sure.

I love being Lutheran and feel that this practice is VERY Lutheran because what makes a Lutheran different from all other denominations is the acknowledgment of their sin and desire to receive forgiveness which is found in the Sacraments with the Lord's Supper being the most intimate ways that we can receive this forgiveness from God.

Unfortunately, not all LCMS congregations feel this way due to closed communion. I have been in congregations where they have planned "Friendship Services" where the congregation invites friends and family to the service and CANCEL the regularly scheduled Lord's Supper so to not "offend" any visitors.

By doing this, I find myself getting offended for the sake of those who reject what my church believes. I find this practice deceptive to visitors as we try to act as if we practice something that we don't practice in hopes of somehow getting them to join.

I wish that Lutheran congregations would be more forthright in practicing what they say they confess so that people who reject it will not feel as if they are being deceived and so that those who respect it will have an opportunity to see our faith in action.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

The church I go to up in Pennsylvania has only one service, the Divine Service of Word and Sacrament on Sunday morning.

I wish it had more throughout the week, but I'm glad they only have one on Sunday. Keeps the congregation unified as a community. Having multiple services tends to turn the church into a marketplace to sell religious platitudes instead of an assembly of believers.

And I think it's terrible to have a Sunday morning service without the Eucharist. It's the whole point.

[Luther073082]

I don't know, I heard it was based off of the fact that churchs had to share pastors so while they would have a service every sunday they could only have a pastor be there so often to provide communion.

I don't care, my church is 150 years old and we have the Eucharist every Sunday. Not sure why the other churchs don't change.

[Lupinus]

We have communion on the first, third, and fifth Sundays of the month, and any holiday or festival services. We use the liturgy in the hymnals accordingly, and we mix up the settings to use different ones so it isn't the same thing every week. Right now we are kind of experamenting since we just got the new hymnals a couple months ago and plan to settle on three or four we like for regular use.

As it was explained to me we have it some Sundays and not others is to try and keep the timeframe similar. One Sundays with communion we stick pretty strictly to the liturgy, the sermon is a bit shorter, etc. Non-communion Sundays are when we are a bit more flexible with the liturgy; may have a bit longer sermon, and such things as renewing wedding vows, baptismal recognition, etc.

[DaRev]

It is becoming the trend in the LCMS for congregations to go back to weekly regular Communion. But there is nothing wrong with using Matins or Morning Prayer for non-communion morning services, or Vespers or Evening Prayer for afternoon/evening services. Another non-communion liturgy in the new LSB is the Service of Prayer and Preaching which comes from the old TLH supplement from 1969.

[Luther073082]

It is becoming the trend in the LCMS for congregations to go back to weekly regular Communion. But there is nothing wrong with using Matins or Morning Prayer for non-communion morning services, or Vespers or Evening Prayer for afternoon/evening services. Another non-communion liturgy in the new LSB is the Service of Prayer and Preaching which comes from the old TLH supplement from 1969.

Yeah, I don't see or understand why a Lutheran church with a pastor working for it full time would administer the sacriment of the Eucharist less then once a week? But yet my uncle's church only does it once a month. . .

[DaRev]

Yeah, I don't see or understand why a Lutheran church with a pastor working for it full time would administer the sacriment of the Eucharist less then once a week? But yet my uncle's church only does it once a month. . .

Sometimes it's congregational tradition. It takes some time to get past that. My congregation here had it only twice a month until relatively recently, like in the last 10 years or so. I still have a couple folks here that think we should go back to that, but it ain't happenin' on my watch.

[Luther073082]

Sometimes it's congregational tradition. It takes some time to get past that. My congregation here had it only twice a month until relatively recently, like in the last 10 years or so. I still have a couple folks here that think we should go back to that, but it ain't happenin' on my watch.

Yeah, I'm the type of person doesn't seek out to reject or destroy all traditions but when a tradition is clearly no longer useful or meaningless a lot of times I challenge those tradtions. Which is why some might call me unorthodox.

One of the things that I've noticed is some Lutherans have too much attachment to some traditions. For example you and I both know that hymals are updated, but when they are updated they are slow to be bought and put into practice because the congregation members like their old hymnals. So the only way we get congregations to use newer updated hymnals is by no longer printing the old one and waiting for all of those hymnals to fall apart due to age.

I have heard there are still some congregations that don't want to give up their hymnal that was published in the 1920's.

[QuiltAngel]

The LCMS came out with a new hymnal fall of '06 and the the demand has exceeded the supply. The number of churches going to it right away has been a pleasent surprise.

[DaRev]

Yeah, I'm the type of person doesn't seek out to reject or destroy all traditions but when a tradition is clearly no longer useful or meaningless a lot of times I challenge those tradtions. Which is why some might call me unorthodox.

One of the things that I've noticed is some Lutherans have too much attachment to some traditions. For example you and I both know that hymals are updated, but when they are updated they are slow to be bought and put into practice because the congregation members like their old hymnals. So the only way we get congregations to use newer updated hymnals is by no longer printing the old one and waiting for all of those hymnals to fall apart due to age.

I have heard there are still some congregations that don't want to give up their hymnal that was published in the 1920's.

The LCMS came out with a new hymnal fall of '06 and the the demand has exceeded the supply. The number of churches going to it right away has been a pleasent surprise.

This is true. In my congregation it was an easy switch because they weren't using the hymnal for the liturgy, but were using that Creative Worship stuff :sick: (which is neither creative nor worship). I weened them off of that by printing out the LSB liturgies before the hymnal was published. I obtained permission to copy the PDF's that were available online prior to it's release. So when the new hymnals arrived, it was only a matter of using the book instead of the printed bulletin. And the response from the congregation has been quite positive.

But, yeah, there are some LCMS congregations that refuse to depart with their TLH's which was published by the old Synodical Conference (LCMS, WELS, ELS, SELC) in 1941!

[QuiltAngel]

My son's church was using TLH and was one of the first to go with LSB.

[DaRev]

My son's church was using TLH and was one of the first to go with LSB.

We got ours immediately, too. We had to wait a while, though, for the accompaniments and the Altar Book, The Liturgy accompaniment was the last to arrive, like 4 months later! :doh:

[NordicLutheran]

Are you sayiing you want only the Divine Service with or without the Eucharist? If so, what is your objection to services such as Matins and Morning Prayer?

I would say that most of our churches who use the Divine Service stay with it for the reasons DaSeminarian stated. Me, I don't mind using some of the other services such as Matins.
I'm saying on a Sunday morning I prefer a Eucharistic Divine Service, but if that's not possible a non Eucharistic one. I think that on Sunday Morning Matins and Morning prayer really doesn't cut it.

[DaRev]

I'm saying on a Sunday morning I prefer a Eucharistic Divine Service, but if that's not possible a non Eucharistic one. I think that on Sunday Morning Matins and Morning prayer really doesn't cut it.

While Matins and Morning Prayer are OK for Sunday mornings, I personally like to hear absolution which neither of them have. At least we get to have the "3rd Sacrament". :thumbsup:

[Kalevalatar]

While Matins and Morning Prayer are OK for Sunday mornings, I personally like to hear absolution which neither of them have. At least we get to have the "3rd Sacrament". :thumbsup:

The liturgy of the Service of the Word (English transcript here (http://www.evl.fi/kkh/to/kjmk/engl/sanajp-engl.pdf)) includes absolution:

I GATHERING

1. Opening hymn
2. Invocation and greeting
3. Introductory words
4. Confession and forgiveness
Confession of sin
Absolution
Prayer of thanksgiving
5. Hymn
6. Prayer of the day

II GOD'S WORD

III PRAYER

IV CONCLUSION

[ctay]

The church I've been going to don't use any hymnal, I don't think they ever will unless the new pastor they get puts his foot down. They need a pastor to get things straightened out a little, get things more organized.

[Luther073082]

While Matins and Morning Prayer are OK for Sunday mornings, I personally like to hear absolution which neither of them have. At least we get to have the "3rd Sacrament". :thumbsup:

Confession is a sacrament in the LCMS?

ELCA only teachs two sacraments baptism and Eucharist. Definition that was taught to me was a sacrament is any combination of an earthly material and the word. (Or something like that)

What is the LCMS definition of a sacrament?

[DaRev]

Confession is a sacrament in the LCMS?

ELCA only teachs two sacraments baptism and Eucharist. Definition that was taught to me was a sacrament is any combination of an earthly material and the word. (Or something like that)

What is the LCMS definition of a sacrament?

The definition of a sacrament in the Lutheran church is:
1) Instituted by Christ
2) Forgives sins
3) Has a physical element

According to that definition there are two Sacraments in the Lutheran Church, namely Baptism and the Lord's Supper.

But the Lutheran Confessions do consider Absolution a "sacrament" in the broad sense because it not only fits definitions 1 and 2 above, but is tied directly to our Baptism.
See the Large Catechism IV 74 and the Apology XIII 4.

(You'll also notice I put the words "3rd Sacrament" in quotes in my post.)

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Confession is a sacrament in the LCMS?

ELCA only teachs two sacraments baptism and Eucharist. Definition that was taught to me was a sacrament is any combination of an earthly material and the word. (Or something like that)

What is the LCMS definition of a sacrament?
Officially there are two sacraments, Holy Baptism and Holy Communion. But because in the writings of Luther confession gets kicked around a lot as a sacrament and because the confessions alude to it as such, it's sometimes considered a sacrament, sometimes not. More often not in practice, though in speach more often so.

[WildStrawberry]

So what do you all think about Matins WITH confession and absolution AND Holy Communion?

My church has been doing this for the past, oh I'd say 4 years or so. We use 4 Divine Service settings, DS 2 from the blue hymnal, Pg 5/15 from the red hymnal, Matins now from LSB and Luther's Hymn Service. So we get a different DS each week.

Personally, I enjoy Matins but I feel like it's...well...sort of inviting everyone over for a BBQ but changing it to a sit down fancy dinner at the last moment when you include Communion. Not to say that I don't want Communion on the Sunday we have Matins. But...it just feels...weird.

Kae

[DaRev]

Matins is a prayer service or a service of the word, and is not really meant to be used for the celebration of the Lord's Supper.

From the LSB, we use different setting (normally) each week:

First Sunday, it's DS 4.
Second Sunday, it's DS 3 chanted (same as TLH p. 15)
Third Sunday, it's DS 1 spoken w/"This is the Feast" (same as DS 2, first setting in LW)
Fourth Sunday, it's DS 1 chanted w/"Gloria in Excelsis"

Fifth Sundays it could be any of the above as the fit takes me.

[Luther073082]

Ok so confession is sort of like a pseudo sacrament in that it fits two definitions and recalls us back to the third? God it. . . I didn't think the LCMS had anymore sacraments then the ELCA.

[WildStrawberry]

Matins is a prayer service or a service of the word, and is not really meant to be used for the celebration of the Lord's Supper.<snip>

Yeah. Which is why it kind of bothers me. I mean...we get the confession and absolution (Pastor ALWAYS does that!) and then go to the beginning "O Lord, Open my lips", the Venite, the Readings, Sermon, Prayer of the Church and then we go to the "Service of the Sacrament" and after that the Canticle (Te Deum) etc.

So we get all the actual elements of the Divine Service...but it still just feels...odd...to me.

Ok so confession is sort of like a pseudo sacrament in that it fits two definitions and recalls us back to the third? God it. . . I didn't think the LCMS had anymore sacraments then the ELCA.

Yep...we also have coffee and potluck as the 4th and 5th "sacraments" as well...;) Kidding!!! ^_^

[Confess]

Ok so confession is sort of like a pseudo sacrament in that it fits two definitions and recalls us back to the third? God it. . . I didn't think the LCMS had anymore sacraments then the ELCA.
~~~~~~~~~~THE ELCA OF THE FUTURE~~~~~~~~~~

ELCA DECLARES A THIRD SACRAMENT .... HOMOSEXUALITY.

:sorry:

[Luther073082]

~~~~~~~~~~THE ELCA OF THE FUTURE~~~~~~~~~~

ELCA DECLARES A THIRD SACRAMENT .... HOMOSEXUALITY.

:sorry:

Very funny . . . Like I said the church hasn't outright condoned it, but it has asked its bishops to lighten up on gay pastors who break celibacy.

Its definatly a step in the wrong direction and an appeasement resolution. I see the ELCA splitting apart again and I'd rather do it sooner rather then later.

[WildStrawberry]

~~~~~~~~~~THE ELCA OF THE FUTURE~~~~~~~~~~

ELCA DECLARES A THIRD SACRAMENT .... HOMOSEXUALITY.

:sorry:

:swoon::swoon::swoon:

*G*

Kae

[Confess]

Very funny . . . Like I said the church hasn't outright condoned it, but it has asked its bishops to lighten up on gay pastors who break celibacy.

Its definatly a step in the wrong direction and an appeasement resolution. I see the ELCA splitting apart again and I'd rather do it sooner rather then later.
I know, I was just playing around. :)