Israeli court rule Palestinian abortion clinic open [Archive]

View Full Version : Israeli court rule Palestinian abortion clinic open

FrenchAffair

12th August 2007, 09:03 PM

Several month ago an abortion clinic was open in Jericho, Palestinian court ruled that abortion was against the law and the clinic was ordered to close. The staff of the clinic appealed the decision in Palestinian court but lost, then went to Israeli court which ruled that the clinic may operate as abortion is legal and common practice in Israel. Contrary to the laws of Palestine, the laws of God and contrary to the will of the People of Palestine. The clinic now has Israeli soldier to protect it and is murdering the unborn children of Palestine. May we pray that this travesty is reversed and this clinic is shut down for good, not only in Palestine but accost the world.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1186dfhetre34631453&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

ContentInHim

12th August 2007, 09:09 PM

FrenchAffair - the link doesn't work. :(

I agree that this is wrong! :cry: Pray for the women who feel this is their only choice. :prayer:

Rep Daddy

12th August 2007, 09:11 PM

FrenchAffair

12th August 2007, 09:13 PM

FrenchAffair - the link doesn't work. :( -ContentInHim
Does it work now?

MrJim

12th August 2007, 09:29 PM

French Affair.

Take this to Morality and Ethics.

I encourage no further responses in this forum on issues calculated to use anti-Israelism to divide this forum.

The US has no moral high ground above Israel. And Palestine is not without it's ethical issues.

Please use other fora for this kind of issue.

Mods please consider moving this or closing it.

"Anti-Israelism"...surely you don't have a problem with those of us that might not be Zionists:scratch:

Zionism shouldn't be hidden away anymore than any other "hot" topic ~ though it could go into the debate subforum if the discussion would get...toasty^_^

Rep Daddy

12th August 2007, 09:32 PM

Don't say I didn't warn you.

Peace Out

FrenchAffair

12th August 2007, 09:32 PM

This thread is not about the evils of Zionism, this thread is about the murder of children contrary to the laws of God and the Palestinian people. Drstevej, your opinion is appreciated. But you are not a moderator or in any position of authority. Please do not tell others what to do, and abide by the rules of this forum as we all have do.
Sall-Allahu aleyhi wa sallam, Mahmood.

Rep Daddy

12th August 2007, 10:31 PM

~*Lady Trekki*~

12th August 2007, 11:30 PM

Mods please consider moving this or closing it.

Read my post.

I concur.

thereselittleflower

13th August 2007, 01:14 AM

FrenchAffair

13th August 2007, 01:50 AM

Israel is a liberal nation that defiles the law of God. Homosexuals run though the streets and are celebrated in Israel, if you speak the word of God and oppose Homosexuality Israel puts you in jail for hate speech. They allow abortion and even force it on others.
Sall-Allahu aleyhi wa sallam, Mahmood.

ContentInHim

13th August 2007, 08:45 AM

~*Lady Trekki*~

13th August 2007, 09:20 AM

Simon_Templar

13th August 2007, 11:31 AM

I don't concur.

Abortion is a conservative Christian issue. Where it is happening and why should not force a thread on this issue out of this forum. I believe that some have a pro-Israel agenda they are using to stop this being discussed here simply because it involved Israel and don't want the racist nature of the regime governing Israel to be made known. For instance, non-Jews are not allowed to marry Jews, the laws of Israel favor the Jews over all other races/ethnic groups.

What the OP brings to our attention highlights why abortion is a great evil.

Its primary promotion in this country was by eugenicists who wanted to use it as a method of controlling the races and undesirables, keeping their numbers under control, so they would not proliferate too greatly.

Now, see what is happening in this situation above.

Israel wants to control the population of Palestinians in and around Israel. Israel has no authority in Palestinian territory, so why is it there protecting this abortion clinic and forcing the Palestinians to keep it open against the laws of Palestine?

Racial/ethnic population control . . just one device.

Here is an example of the great evil of abortion in operation, doing what it is designed to do.

.
I would disagree as to the motivation of the Israeli court. I think it is a simple issue that Israel is a liberal western nation in character.

I'm pro-Israel, however, the fact is they are a secularized, liberal nation just like the US is. Many pro-israel Christians have an attitude that Israel can do no wrong, or they are saint like etc.

They are just as immoral, and just as secular as any other western nation.

On the other hand, the opposition they receive from most of the world, and liberals in particular is very telling.

Israel, SHOULD be touted and championed by these people because they, by far, have more in common ideolgically. Yet they support the muslims instead who are 100% ideologically opposed to everything the liberals stand for. Why is that?

This case is a good example. If religious fundamentalists here were able to deny abortion 'rights', and then a court stepped in and re-opened the clinic, the liberals here would cheer such an 'enlightened humanitarian' action. While they would decry the barbarism and oppression of the religious fundamentalists... unless its muslims, and the court is Israeli.

desmalia

13th August 2007, 04:13 PM

There are really only two reasonable responses to this.

1) Pray for the Palestinian women who are seeking abortions and now have a place to get them. Pray that they realize the consequences of this sin before it's too late.

2) Pray for the nation of Israel. Pray that they finally come to realize Jesus is Messiah and submit to His lordship.

If Israel is to be labeled as evil for allowing homosexuals to "run free in the streets" and abortion clinics to be legalized, then America, Canada, Britain, and many other countries will have to also be called evil. It's an over-generalization that gets us nowhere. Evil abounds in this world, and cannot be blamed on one specific racial group.

MrJim

13th August 2007, 04:21 PM

Is there a real link to this story?

TLF makes valid points if this story is correct. And Israel doesn't get any slack in my court of personal opinion.

jameseb

13th August 2007, 05:47 PM

I have to ask given your previous threads about Israel - is this really about abortion or just another 'Bash Israel' thread?

Tangeloper

13th August 2007, 06:15 PM

I have to ask given your previous threads about Israel - is this really about abortion or just another 'Bash Israel' thread?

I've got FrenchAffair on my ignore list due to his disruption of a thread in the Political Conservatives forum that was about the North American Union, and where he promoted socialized healthcare.

Also, isn't it in the CC forum's rule that non-members cannot start threads like this in here, as well as debate? Looking at the latest list it appears that FrenchAffair is not a member of this particular board.

As such I would concur with the removal of this thread, or moving it to a more appropriate board....

Just my $.02 cents...
~~ Tangeloper

Hentenza

13th August 2007, 06:32 PM

Moderator, could you please move this thread to the appropriate place.

thereselittleflower

14th August 2007, 03:08 PM

Your exposition of the motives of Israel is your opinion, TLF. I think if you check the laws of Israel they are similar to ours in regard to abortion.

And how in the world can this be an argument in Israel's favor when the intent of those who pushed for the legalization of abortion here in the US where eugenicists?

It's an unfortunate right and while Jericho is still in the country of Israel, the clinic is legal (and sadly now protected). :(

On the contrary, Jericho is not under Isareli authority.
Jericho was the first Arab town in the West Bank to become (1994) autonomous under the agreement between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization

http://www.answers.com/topic/jericho

Some automony . . . .

.

thereselittleflower

14th August 2007, 03:34 PM

I would disagree as to the motivation of the Israeli court. I think it is a simple issue that Israel is a liberal western nation in character.

What right does one western nation have to usurp the authority of another autonomous people, ignore their laws, and force their own laws upon them?

What jurisdiction did the Israeli Court have to make any ruling concerning the laws and people of Jericho, which is, supposedly, an autonomous Palestinian territory?

What motivation could the Israeli court have to go outside its jurisdiction and enforce Israeli law on an autonomous people not under its jurisdiction?

The motivation of the Israeli court is based on the principles undergirding its laws, which is the superiority of the Jewish race/people, conferring on them rights no other race/ethinic group is permitted to enjoy in Israel, with the acheivement of the ultimate goal of a vast majority of Jews owning and occupying the land, which can only happen with the dispossession of the Palestinians and other arab peoples achieved one way or another, eventually in all of "Greater Israel" (the land promised Abraham from the Euphrates to the Sea to the River of Egypt.

Christians need to get their romanticized notions of Israel out of their heads and look at the government of Israel for what it is. . a racist regime elevating by law the Jewish race over all others.

It is not hard to figure out what the agenda is here.

I'm pro-Israel, however, the fact is they are a secularized, liberal nation just like the US is. Many pro-israel Christians have an attitude that Israel can do no wrong, or they are saint like etc.

Yes, they do, and they foster a romanticized idea of who and what the State of Israel is because of Israel's importance in the Old Testament.

The State of Israel today is nothing like that ancient nation, has nothing to do with it, but is riding on the shirttails of biblical Israel pulling in many Chrisitans to support, without realizing it, a racist regime bent on the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians so Jews can be the vast majority in "the land".

They are just as immoral, and just as secular as any other western nation.

And what right do they have to tell AUTONOMOUS Palestinians what to do?

On the other hand, the opposition they receive from most of the world, and liberals in particular is very telling.

Why? Because most of the world is not deaf and blindn to Israel's attrocities against the Palestinian people, against the enthinic cleansing they have been perpetrating on the Palestinian people for over half a century; because most of the world is not deaf and blind to the racist nature of the regime which has been controlling Israel even before it declared its independence, through the several Jewish Zionist Terror Gangs that attacked both the Brittish authority and Arab citizens . . The leaders of those terror gangs became the leaders of the State of Irael.

Why shouldn't the world be against such a regime?

Israel thumbs its nose at the many UN resolutions against it for its human rights violations. . . Israel doesn't care. The knessset laughts at America and calls our congress their occupied terriroty.

We could go on and on. What is telling about this?

Does all this in some way prove that God's favor is resting on them? Or is God merely being very patient with them and the world? Why does God allow this to continue? Why does He allow any such regime that treats its inhabitants and those in surround territories in such a manner to continue? Does the fact that God allows such to continue mean He approves of them?

Not a chance.

Israel, SHOULD be touted and championed by these people because they, by far, have more in common ideolgically. Yet they support the muslims instead who are 100% ideologically opposed to everything the liberals stand for. Why is that?

No, this is where you are very wrong.

Idealogically Israel is very different from the countries you think have more in common with them. Israel is a RACIST regime. . . it promotes one race over another. It's laws favor one race over all others. That is not the ideology of America, or other western nations.

This case is a good example. If religious fundamentalists here were able to deny abortion 'rights', and then a court stepped in and re-opened the clinic, the liberals here would cheer such an 'enlightened humanitarian' action. While they would decry the barbarism and oppression of the religious fundamentalists... unless its muslims, and the court is Israeli.

You have missed the point entirely . . .

Jericho is AUTONOMOUS and not governed by the laws of Isarel.

Israel stepped in and forced their laws upon an AUTONOMOUS people who have their own laws.

Educate yourself about the racist nature and the goals of the regime controlling and governing Israel . . ..

.

thereselittleflower

14th August 2007, 03:39 PM

FrenchAffair is probably a sock for MezzaMorta. Him and Thereselittleflower have started many anti-Israel threads in theology with the sole purpose of creating dissent. Their credibility is shaky at best and their motives are nothing short of a smear campaign. They are not members of this forum, so I agree with Jameseb and Tangeloper wholeheartly.

Moderator, could you please move this thread to the appropriate place.

I am not a member of this forum? Says who, you? I would suggest that you look at the membership rooster and you will find that both I and FA are members of this forum.

Your smear campaign is duly noted, even against a member who hasn't even participated in this thread.

If this continues, it will be construed as harrassment.

.

thereselittleflower

14th August 2007, 03:44 PM

I have to ask given your previous threads about Israel - is this really about abortion or just another 'Bash Israel' thread?

James, who benefits the most from legalized abortion?

Eugenicists . . .

What do Eugenicists promote? The superiority of one race over others.

What does Israel promote?

One race as superior . . . the Jewish race.

Connect the dots.

The OP is just one example of this in action and why abortion is so terrible and goes far beyond the issue of the individual lives lost. Look at the racial demographics.

Then reconsider.

.

thereselittleflower

14th August 2007, 04:00 PM

Is there a real link to this story?

TLF makes valid points if this story is correct. And Israel doesn't get any slack in my court of personal opinion.

Thank you MrJim. Some people have lifted the State of Israel so high on a pedestal that they can't see the reality existing on the ground, and then attack those who actually look and report back what they have found.

Some have not realized the eugenicist nature and underpinnings of abortion in this country or other countries and so do not see the bigger picture and what such actions of governments against other peoples signify.

.

Albion

14th August 2007, 04:13 PM

The writer of the OP isn't even a member.

If we are to have rules, we all are going to have to avoid being baited by those who try to disregard them.

Don't just keep debating when no debate is supposed to be happening and when we've been repeatedly told this.

FrenchAffair

14th August 2007, 04:19 PM

The writer of the OP isn't even a member.been repeatedly told this. -Albion
I am a member.
Subhan Allah, Mahmood.

thereselittleflower

14th August 2007, 04:23 PM

The writer of the OP isn't even a member.

:doh:

Have you even bothered to check the list?

If we are to have rules, we all are going to have to avoid being baited by those who try to disregard them.

Why is this harrassment of a member of this forum occuring?

Don't just keep debating when no debate is supposed to be happening and when we've been repeatedly told this.

Is the harrassment going to stop now?

.

FrenchAffair

14th August 2007, 04:23 PM

thereselittleflower

14th August 2007, 04:28 PM

I feel we are diverting from the issue, which is the laws of God and Palestine being circumvented by Israeli authority, against the will of the Palestinian people enabling the mass murder of Palestinian children. abortion is legal and common practice in Israel and they are trying to force this on other people Who reject the murder of innocent children and support life, a position which seems to be less and less popular in this world.
Subhan Allah, Mahmood.

Yes, one of the questions this raises is what do we as Christians do when a people who uphold the sanctity of life of the unborn are forced by another country at gunpoint to allow the murder of its unborn?

.

FrenchAffair

14th August 2007, 04:31 PM

Yes, one of the questions this raises is what do we as Christians do when a people who uphold the sanctity of life of the unborn are forced by another country at gunpoint to allow the murder of its unborn? -thereselittleflower
I feel there is only one choice, one can either support abortion and the perpetrators of it, or can support the laws of God and oppose it and the perpetrators of this heinous act. Few issues are black and white, abortion is one I feel is.
Subhan Allah, Mahmood.

Hentenza

14th August 2007, 04:31 PM

thereselittleflower

14th August 2007, 04:40 PM

FrenchAffair, abortion is wrong in ANY country. It is wrong in Israel just like it is wrong in the US or any other country that allows it. It sounds to me that your arguments and OP are designed to place more blame on Israel than on other countries with the same legal evil. That makes you argument biased with racial undertones.
No hentenza . . you are missing the issue.

What other country that provides for abortion, forces another autonomous people at gunpoint to permit abortion in their own country/territories against that people's own laws and will?

The evil of abortion is made even greater by this act by Israel.

To point it out as a special example is not in any way racist. That you think it is shows your own lack of understanding of the situation due to an oversimplistic narrow viewpoint and a hairtrigger tendency to cry "foul" everytime someone makes a legitimate criticism of Israel, including attempting to discredit them simply because they don't agree with you or put Israel on the same pedestal as you do.

For the sake of argument, what do you propose we do about this abortion clinic?

For starters, how would you answer my question?

What right does another country have to come in and force, by gunpoint, another, autonomous people to allow the murder of their unborn?

How should christians respond?

How should a christian respond when there is a conflict of interest, as we see here, where, someone as yourself who supports Israel and also supports the right to life and is opposed to abortion, is confronted with Israel forcing Palestinians to accept the muder of their unborn?

Do you denounce Israel for doing so?

Or do you turn the other way, excuse it, say/do nothing?

Which is more important?

Israel?

Or the rights of the unborn Palestinians and the Palestinian right to prohibit by law abortion and prevent the operation of abortion clinics in their pwn autonomous terrirtories?

How would you answer?

.

FrenchAffair

14th August 2007, 04:41 PM

FrenchAffair, abortion is wrong in ANY country. It is wrong in Israel just like it is wrong in the US or any other country that allows it. -Hentenza

I do not know of any other nation which has imposed the murder of children upon a population which has rejected it and embraced the laws of God. Abortion is wrong in any case, but forcing abortion upon others is taking this travesty to a new level.

It sounds to me that your arguments and OP are designed to place more blame on Israel than on other countries with the same legal evil. -Hentenza

As I said above, abortion is evil no matter what. But forcing it on a population where it has been banned by consensus is taking it to another level. Israel has never shown any regard for the lives of Palestinians, but to openly support the slaughter of Palestinian children I feel is something that cannot go without response and condemnation.
Subhan Allah, Mahmood.

Albion

14th August 2007, 04:55 PM

As I said above, abortion is evil no matter what. But forcing it on a population where it has been banned by consensus is taking it to another level. Israel has never shown any regard for the lives of Palestinians, but to openly support the slaughter of Palestinian children I feel is something that cannot go without response and condemnation.
Subhan Allah, Mahmood.

Yeh, that's how I feel about the practice of slavery still existing on the Arabian peninsula. We could talk about that.

I feel this is something that can't go on without response and condemnation. Then we'll move to the wonderful Palestinian practice of strapping bombs onto their children and having them blow up -- not abortion clinics in Israel or Palestine -- but restaurants.

thereselittleflower

14th August 2007, 05:02 PM

Yeh, that's how I feel about the practice of slavery still existing on the Arabian peninsula. We could talk about that.

I feel this is something that can't go on without response and condemnation. Then we'll move to the wonderful Palestinian practice of strapping bombs onto their children and having them blow up -- not abortion clinics in Israel or Palestine -- but restaurants.

It sounds as though you are advocating that abortion be forced upon the autonomous Palestinian peoples against their will so there will be fewer Palestinian children born so ther will be fewer palestinian children to strap bombs to and blow up . .

Is that what you saying?

That we should not be too concerned about Israel forcing Palestinains at gunpoint to allow abortion becaue it will limit the number of Palestinian children and thust the number of potential human bombs?

So, you advocate for ethinic cleansing of a race/people by lmiting the number of their children thus changing the racial/ethnic demongraphics within a generation in favor of the Jewish race?

Please explain, for I can see no other purpose for such words as you posted above. . . .

.

thereselittleflower

14th August 2007, 05:06 PM

Yeh, that's how I feel about the practice of slavery still existing on the Arabian peninsula. We could talk about that.

Also, are you not familiar with the CHRISTIAN concept of just slavery?

Do you realize we use slavery in the US today? It is called prison workers. You see the prison gangs on the side of the roads picking up trash? Forced servitude, the just deprivation of freedom.

Now, about unjust slavery, you are aware of the white slave trade here in the US and in Western countries?

You need to look to your own backyard first. . .

And, by the way, just in case you think you slipped one by, your argument above is the logical fallacy known as aRED HERRING . . it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of the thread. ;)

.

desmalia

14th August 2007, 05:07 PM

For the sake of argument, what do you propose we do about this abortion clinic?That's the key question, isn't it? Not one person here has suggested that abortion is OK or acceptable. Not one. We are all in agreement about the seriousness of the topic. But that's not enough, is it? What do we DO about it? Bomb the clinic? Bomb Israel? What? FrenchAffair, you've put considerable effort into this thread, and I would like to know what the point is. What do you want? Are you hoping to convince us to hate Israel? Are you looking for support to participate in a violent act?

Albion

14th August 2007, 05:10 PM

It sounds as though you are advocating that abortion be forced upon the autonomous Palestinian peoples against their will so there will be fewer Palestinian children born so ther will be fewer palestinian children to strap bombs to and blow up . .

Is that what you saying?

No.

That we should not be too concerned about Israel forcing Palestinains at gunpoint to allow abortion becaue it will limit the number of Palestinian children and thust the number of potential human bombs?

No.

So, you advocate for ethinic cleansing of a race/people by lmiting the number of their children thus changing the racial/ethnic demongraphics within a generation in favor of the Jewish race?

No.

I hope that sets the record straight and clarifies everything you were concerned about.

Please explain, for I can see no other purpose for such words as you posted above. . . .

I'm sure you can if you want to.

~*Lady Trekki*~

14th August 2007, 05:17 PM

Mods...PLEASE move this thread to our debate sub forum. :(

thereselittleflower

14th August 2007, 05:19 PM

That's the key question, isn't it? Not one person here has suggested that abortion is OK or acceptable. Not one. We are all in agreement about the seriousness of the topic. But that's not enough, is it? What do we DO about it? Bomb the clinic? Bomb Israel? What? FrenchAffair, you've put considerable effort into this thread, and I would like to know what the point is. What do you want? Are you hoping to convince us to hate Israel? Are you looking for support to participate in a violent act?

Since not one person here has suggested the bombing of Israel, the bomging of the clinic, the hatred of Israel, participation in a violent act, what do you think your words above reveal about your own prejudices which are right now aimed against a Christian Arab, a brother in Christ, who is outraged by what Israel has done here and brings it to the attention of conversative Chrisitans?

Is this the response Jesus would have us give to someoen bringing this situation to our attention?

Should not all conservative Chrsitians be appalled at this action by Israel?

Where is your outrage for what Israel has done which does nothing by destroy and undermine the moral fabric of a people at its most basic, elemental level? Which attacks the people as a people and their right for even the most defenseless among them to live?

What is your response to Israel's actions here?

I asked a series of very pertinent questions above . . . do you care to answer?

.

Hentenza

14th August 2007, 05:20 PM

~*Lady Trekki*~

14th August 2007, 05:23 PM

I think apart of the confusion in this thread is that the OP's original post contained a link to the article he was referring to that doesn't work. Personally, I'd wait to respond til you've read the whole story.

Hentenza

14th August 2007, 05:24 PM

Mods...PLEASE move this thread to our debate sub forum. :(

I second that motion.

jameseb

14th August 2007, 05:25 PM

I second that motion.

I third it.

desmalia

14th August 2007, 05:30 PM

Since not one preson here has suggested the bombing of Israel, the bomging of the clinic, the hatred of Israel, participation in a violent act, what do you think your words above reveal about your own prejudices which are right now aimed against a Christian Arab, a brother in Christ, who takes issue with what Israel has done here and brings it to the attention of conversative Chrisitans?

Is this the response Jesus would have us give to someoen bringing this situation to our attention?

Should not all conservative Chrsitians be appalled at this action by Israel?

Where is your outrage for what Israel has done which does nothing by destroy and undermine the moral fabric of a people at its most basic, elemental level?

What is your response to Israel's actions here?

I asked a series of very pertinent questions above . . . do you care to answer?

.There is a big difference between being appalled by evil and blaming it on a race of people. That is the real problem. You suggest that I am "not concerned" when there is sin and evil? Shame on you. Of course I am concerned when there is sin and evil, but I choose not to blame one race or even one country for it. That's the difference. I don't "hate" Israel any more than I "hate" Iraq or America or Italy for that matter (and just to clarify, no I do not hate any of them). It's time to stop generalizing and blaming all of Israel for this thing (assuming it's true. Still no article to be found). If action is to be taken, what do you suggest? Not an easy question to answer, is it? You guys can come here and vent and complain, and even blame the rest of us if you feel like it. But what do you think that will accomplish?

thereselittleflower

14th August 2007, 05:36 PM

FA, I agree that abortion is evil, but are these Palestinian women being dragged into the clinic against their will to have abortions? Are Israeli soldiers forcing these Palestinian women to have abortions?
Like with any business, if they have no business they will close. Why are these Palestinian women having abortions?

Again, your post avoids the point entirely.

This is not about being dragged into abortion clinics and you know it.

It is about one country forcing its laws on an autonomous people, which you have obviously chosen to ignore in your responses.

This is the type of obfuscation we see when someone chooses to ignore the real issue and attempt to erect a strawman in its place.

Tell me Hentenza . . if abortion was outlawed in this country, and someone opened an abortion clinin in your town, would you support its being open? Or would you try to close it.

And if you tried to close it using the legal means at your disposal, and had a ruling in your favor, then the owners of the abortion clinic appealed to Canada, and then Canada ruled in favor of the abortion clinic and sent armed military to ensure it stayed open at gupoint, would you be saying the tings you are saying to FA now?

We are interested in your answer

.

Simon_Templar

14th August 2007, 05:37 PM

What right does one western nation have to usurp the authority of another autonomous people, ignore their laws, and force their own laws upon them?

What jurisdiction did the Israeli Court have to make any ruling concerning the laws and people of Jericho, which is, supposedly, an autonomous Palestinian territory?

What motivation could the Israeli court have to go outside its jurisdiction and enforce Israeli law on an autonomous people not under its jurisdiction?
.

To be honest with you, the PA shouldn't exist at all, the fact that it does is nothing but a consesion to terrorism by a people who are willing to risk cutting their own throat for the remote chance that their rabidly racist, hate-mongering neighbors can be reasoned with and might actually some day desire peace.

Secondly, the PA is not a sovereign nation. It is an administrative district which exists by consession from the Israeli government. It does not have the rights of a sovereign nation, and what rights it does have were given to it by the Israeli Government.

The motivation of the Israeli court is based on the principles undergirding its laws, which is the superiority of the Jewish race/people, conferring on them rights no other race/ethinic group is permitted to enjoy in Israel, with the acheivement of the ultimate goal of a vast majority of Jews owning and occupying the land, which can only happen with the dispossession of the Palestinians and other arab peoples achieved one way or another, eventually in all of "Greater Israel" (the land promised Abraham from the Euphrates to the Sea to the River of Egypt.
.

Please. This shows complete and total ignorance of the Israeli people and the nation of Israel as it exists today. The Palestinian Authority would not even exist if Israel had not established it in an effort to placate the palestinians who have been waging a terrorist war against Israel for half a century.
I suppose next you'll be telling me that the evil Jew bankers started WWII for their profit and that the Holocaust is a hoax.

Lastly, God's promises are always fulfilled, and they never come up empty. Thus the Israel you describe will exist because it was promised. The irony here is that the nation of Israel is doing just about everything they can to prevent this because they keep giving up land for peace, only to be attacked again and have more consessions demanded.

Christians need to get their romanticized notions of Israel out of their heads and look at the government of Israel for what it is. . a racist regime elevating by law the Jewish race over all others.

It is not hard to figure out what the agenda is here.
.

The idea that the government of Israel is a racist regime bent on world domination is laughable. This is the kind of propaganda that only racists really believe.
Israel was created specifically to be a Jewish homeland, and a place where Jews, who have been severely persecuted in every land (with the exception of the US) can live according to their laws. The idea that they are obliged to allow themselves to be killed and destroyed from the face of the earth to placate a bunch of blood thirsty muslims is insane, plain and simple. Yet that is what the majority of world opinion on this issue amounts to. This kind of unreasoning hatred of the Jewish people is demonic.

Yes, they do, and they foster a romanticized idea of who and what the State of Israel is because of Israel's importance in the Old Testament.

The State of Israel today is nothing like that ancient nation, has nothing to do with it, but is riding on the shirttails of biblical Israel pulling in many Chrisitans to support, without realizing it, a racist regime bent on the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians so Jews can be the vast majority in "the land".
.

you should try learning a little history. The Jews and palestinians in the middle east lived in relative peace until Muslim's allied with the Nazi's (specifically the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Arafat's uncle) began instigating riots, and advocating the death of all the Jews in palestine. Then after the war when the Nation of Israel was created, it was immediately attacked on all sides by the arab states, and many of the palestinians sided with the arab states in an attempt to exterminate the Jewish population before the nation could get a foot hold.

After the Palestinians were expelled from Israel, many of them took refuge in Jordan (which was supposed to be a palestinian state). They were eventually thrown out of Jordan by the King because the fomented rebellion and were plotting to overthrow the government there.

Their arab brothers have steadfastly refused to allow the palestinians a home in any of their countries because they don't want the trouble of dealing with the probability of civil insurection, and because its too politically valuable to keep the palestinians at Israel's throat.

Israel has been rough with the Palestinians and many innocent people are caught in the middle, but to be honest with you, they haven't been nearly as rough as I would have been had I been attacked repeatedly by a group who proclaimed that their goal in life was to destroy me.

And what right do they have to tell AUTONOMOUS Palestinians what to do?
.

The palestinians aren't autonomous, or sovereign. They have limited governmental authority in civil and security related areas. The fact that they have that, is a testament to Israel's long suffering nature and in my opinion, unreasonable optimism that peace can be achieved with the palestinians.

Why? Because most of the world is not deaf and blindn to Israel's attrocities against the Palestinian people, against the enthinic cleansing they have been perpetrating on the Palestinian people for over half a century; because most of the world is not deaf and blind to the racist nature of the regime which has been controlling Israel even before it declared its independence, through the several Jewish Zionist Terror Gangs that attacked both the Brittish authority and Arab citizens . . The leaders of those terror gangs became the leaders of the State of Irael.
.

The magnitude of the lies and twisting of the truth present in this view point never fails to astound me. Accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing is beyond reason. The palestinians are the terrorists in this situation. They have engaged in terrorism almost everywhere they've gone from Lebenon, to jordan to Israel.
You're comments here have no relation whatsoever to sane reality.
Refering to the Stern gang and the Haganah and Irgun as terrorists and then calling the Palestinian's freedom fighters and persecuted peoples is the heights of hypocrisy.
The Haganah formed as a result of the fact that as early as the 1920's palestinians had mounted armed attacks on Jewish populations and had rioted killing Jews. The British mandate established at roughly the same time was established specifically for the purpose of establishing a Jewish homeland at the behest of the League of Nations. Yet the british administration did literaly nothing to punish the palestinians who were attacking the Jewish communities, nor anything to defend the Jews.
The result was that Haganah (meaning "the defense")was formed to protect Jewish communities. Originally the Haganah was just localized militia charged with defending farms. It didn't become more organized as a para-military organization until after the occurance week long riot in which over a hundred jews were murdered by palestinians.

The haganah was essentially a Jewish army by the time the Arab population fomented open rebellion against the British mandate in the 1930's. This revolt is what lead to the exile of the grand mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin Husayni (sp) (Arafat's uncle). During his exile, Hajj spent a good deal of time in Nazi Germany with his good buddy Hitler, and he openly praised the 'final solution' as a great idea.

The Haganah was a legitimate self-defense movement. The more militant radical members of Haganah split off and formed the group Irgun which took a more agressive policy. Irgun later split again producing the Stern Gang which were the most radical of all the Jewish groups.

Irgun was more agressive towards palestinians believing that defensive strategy was not enough and that retaliation was necessary to curb Arab violence against Jews. The Stern Gang, in turn split off because they believed it was necessary to actively attack the british presense in Palestine. The british had severely restricted Jewish immagration to palestine despite the fact that their mandate was to create a Jewish state.
The Stern Gang, and to a lesser degree the Irgun were seen by the british as terrorist organizations. Irgun because they retaliated against palestinians, and Stern gang because they openly attacked the British, and even resorted to assasination.

Most would agree that the stern gang were terrorists, Irgun would probably be a little more questionable, but they did resort to bombing civilian targets and such.

Haganah, would eventually become the core of the Israeli army after the establishment of the State, and many of the leaders of Haganah became important political figures.

-Cont-

Simon_Templar

14th August 2007, 05:38 PM

Why shouldn't the world be against such a regime?
.

Israel has done nothing that the UK, the USA, and the rest of the western world hasn't done and done unappologetically.
For that matter, the Catholic chruch has alot more blood on its hands than Israel does.

Israel thumbs its nose at the many UN resolutions against it for its human rights violations. . . Israel doesn't care. The knessset laughts at America and calls our congress their occupied terriroty.
.
yes I'm sure... just out of curiosity, you do realize that there are palestinians in the Knesset right?

We could go on and on. What is telling about this?

Does all this in some way prove that God's favor is resting on them? Or is God merely being very patient with them and the world? Why does God allow this to continue? Why does He allow any such regime that treats its inhabitants and those in surround territories in such a manner to continue? Does the fact that God allows such to continue mean He approves of them?

Not a chance.
.

God does not approve of Israel's misdeeds. Any more than he does of the US's, or of the Church's for that matter. However, it is obvious from their history that He has preserved them. If God were not upholding them, they would have fallen long before now.

No, this is where you are very wrong.

Idealogically Israel is very different from the countries you think have more in common with them. Israel is a RACIST regime. . . it promotes one race over another. It's laws favor one race over all others. That is not the ideology of America, or other western nations.
.

more of the same irrational ranting. There are extremist Jews, just like there are extremists in every group. Defining an entire people by this charicature is nonsense.
There are far more extremists and racists among the palestinians than among the jews. Its no wonder why when you begin to examine what palestinian children are taught. Indoctrination to hate every Jew and desire the complete destruction of Israel is a major part of many Palestinian's education.

In palestinian schools you have mickey mouse telling kids to blow up Jews and Americans.. you know, strangely, you don't find that in Jewish schools. You don't find propaganda videos made for Jewish children to blow themselves up in order to kill a palestinian. You do find that among palestinians though.

This is the defining point here. On one hand you have a liberal western government, which bends over backwards to try and placate its enemies. You have a people with typical westernized humanistic education and all that entails.
On the other you have a people many of whom are steeped in hate from the moment they are born. Ruled by groups that train their own children to kill themselves so long as they can take a jew with them. People who dance in the streets when americans are killed.

And the world condemns the first group as the terrorists and a 'rogue nation'. While hailing the second as oppressed freedom fighters. It defies reason. The only possible explanation is simply that they are all children of the same father.
Its the same as the interesting circumstance that the Nazi's allied with, and honored palestinian arabs, while declaring the Jews racially unfit and trying to wipe them out.. despite the fact that the palestinian arabs and the jews are the same racial family group. There is no logical explanation other than they are children of the same father.

You have missed the point entirely . . .

Jericho is AUTONOMOUS and not governed by the laws of Isarel.

Israel stepped in and forced their laws upon an AUTONOMOUS people who have their own laws.

Educate yourself about the racist nature and the goals of the regime controlling and governing Israel .
.

After reading your post I began to wonder if you need to wipe the foam from your chin. The tone of the entire thing was that of irrational racist ranting.

Frankly, I was a bit shocked, because I didn't expect that at all.

As to educating myself, I'm very familiar with the history of zionism, and the Nation of Israel. On top of that, I've actually been there, and spent a month working with christian palestinian arabs. I also had close friends who worked with palestinian christians for several years.

The situation is tragic because the moderate, and especially christian palestinians are caught in the middle. They get persecuted by Israel because of restrictions on travel and employment that harm them economically. Yet at the same time they are often in danger of being killed by their own people who may see them as not supporting the more radical groups like Hamas.

Israel isn't perfect by any means, but the plain fact is that the palestinian organizations that dominate the palestinian people are flat out EVIL. They are hate incarnate and they have no compunction about killing palestinians if they get in the way, or don't go along, just as much as Jews.
The fact is, as long as these organizations exist, and the palestinian people continue to support them there will never be peace.

If those organizations disbanded tomorrow there would be peace. If Israel did what much of the world demands of them, tomorrow there would be no Israel.

Hentenza

14th August 2007, 05:46 PM

Very well said, Simon. I agree completely.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::wave::amen:

thereselittleflower

14th August 2007, 05:46 PM

There is a big difference between being appalled by evil and blaming it on a race of people. That is the real problem.

Who blamed evil on a race of people?

Please show us where?

Otherwise, your accusations are based on nothing other than your own imagination.

You suggest that I am "not concerned" when there is sin and evil? Shame on you. Of course I am concerned when there is sin and evil, but I choose not to blame one race or even one country for it.

Your insinuations attacke me or others who take a stand against what has happened here is what is appalling. You insinuate falsehoods against your christian brethern. Why?

That's the difference. I don't "hate" Israel any more than I "hate" Iraq or America or Italy for that matter (and just to clarify, no I do not hate any of them). It's time to stop generalizing and blaming all of Israel for this thing (assuming it's true. Still no article to be found).

Who other than Israel is to blame for Israel's actions?

Now you are not making sense.

If action is to be taken, what do you suggest?

Why don't you address my questions since I was the first to ask? I find it interesting that you don't.

Not an easy question to answer, is it? You guys can come here and vent and complain, and even blame the rest of us if you feel like it. But what do you think that will accomplish?

It will raise awareness, it will get some, who have an open mind, to consider facts instead of romantic pictures of Israel painted for them by others, and then perhaps some will choose to act by contacting their representatives to denounce this attrocity and put pressure to a bear through our government on Israel to stop and dissist . ..

The problem is that the pro-Israel minority has a loud voice and is a powerful lobby.

Christians need to stop being swept up in their romaticized version of Israel and start looking at the cold hard facts, and call our country to task for supporting Israel the way we do.

Christians can pray for a change in regime in Israel, from the racist regime that now occupies it to one which is concerned with the human rights of all its citizens and those around it.

But turning a blind eye and doing nothing, not even bringing it to the attention of other Christians as was done here, makes one culpable in their evils as it does in our own country.

.

flaglady

14th August 2007, 05:52 PM

CLOSED
FOR
STAFF
REVIEW

Jim47

14th August 2007, 07:09 PM

Re-opened thread and moved to debate sub forum

thereselittleflower

14th August 2007, 07:13 PM

Israel has done nothing that the UK, the USA, and the rest of the western world hasn't done and done unappologetically.

Let's examine this claim,

Please cite the instances of these countires using their own courts of law to overide the law of an autonomous people, and force that autonomous people, at gunpoint, to permit an abortion clinic to be open.

Unless you can produce evidence of this, your claims above have no bearing on this topic.

For that matter, the Catholic chruch has alot more blood on its hands than Israel does.

Not by any stretch of the imagniation. This thread is not about the Catholic Church by the way or about your personal myths about it.

yes I'm sure... just out of curiosity, you do realize that there are palestinians in the Knesset right?

Of course. And What is its relevamce? Israel had to do something to bow to international pressure, and made a token gesture . . :)

Tell us:

Why can no one but Jews own land in the vast majority of Israel?

Why can no one but a recognized Jew marry a Jew in Israel? Whycan't non-Jews marry Jews, even if the Jews are atheist?

Why do Israel's laws promote the Jewish race and subjugate all others?

We can get into all of this to support the argument made here about this one act. I have way more than enough facts to prove all of this and demonstrate the racist nature of the regime in Israel. Those who turn the other way will do all they can to try to prevent that information from being shared because it knocks Israel off the pedestal so many have put it on.

So, those find it easier to cry foul and denounce those who take an honest look at the state of affairs in Israel as haters of Israel, seeking its destruction, anti-semitic, and the list goes on.

And never once do those of you who do so stop to consder that being against the policies of a regime has nothing at all to do with race or racism, etc.

That card is unjustly played by those who want to shut and silence the voices of those who are willing to take an honest look at what is actually happening and speak out on it, as we will see happens further down ;)

God does not approve of Israel's misdeeds. Any more than he does of the US's, or of the Church's for that matter. However, it is obvious from their history that He has preserved them. If God were not upholding them, they would have fallen long before now.

And here is the typical response, i call the "God" card.

It is totally illogical on its face, for, it if applies here, it has to apply to every nation.

For instance, is God upholding Iran? Israel has been a nation for less than a hundred years. Iran has been a nation for thousands. . . so, according to your argument, God is upholding Iran, right?

All nations exist because God permists them to. Should we attach any special significance to God allowing any one particular nation to exist?

No. There is nothing on which to base any other conclusion.

more of the same irrational ranting.
LOL! Just what I expect when someone can't logically address the argument . . . PURE AD HOMINEM . .attacking the person rather than the argument. It is a logical fallacy to do so.

I would say it is quite irrational to place a nation on a pedastle and make it untouchable, so that any who dare criticize its policies are attacked. ;)

That Israel is a racist regime is very easily proven to anyone with an open mind enough to look at the evidence. There is nothing irrational in doing so or coming to this conclusion.

The questions I asked above are rational and begin to pinpoint the racist nature of th State of Israel's laws.

Since you have nothing with which to objective refute this, since the evidence is plain for any willing to look, you have resorted to AD HOMINEM in an attempt to deflect away from this fact.

The question is, why do christians in America support a racist regime in Israel?

There are extremist Jews, just like there are extremists in every group. Defining an entire people by this charicature is nonsense.

Exactly! Yet we see posts above which define the Palestinians based on the extremist muslims regardless of their origin.

So, shouldn't you be concerned with that behavior?

And where did I say anything about what happened in Jericho being the result of extremist Jews?

We are talking about mainline poilitical zionism, the ideology underpinning the regime governing Israel.

Are you saying that the government of Israel is extremist?

There are far more extremists and racists among the palestinians than among the jews.

Based on what? You pulled that out of the thin air. I see no logical basis for such a statement.

Again, why do the LAWS of Israel elevate one race above all others, and subjugate the rest?

Its no wonder why when you begin to examine what palestinian children are taught. Indoctrination to hate every Jew and desire the complete destruction of Israel is a major part of many Palestinian's education.

How do you know what palestinian children are taught?

How do ou know that Jewish children aren't taught to hate every palestinian and desire the complete destruction of Palestine as part of their indoctrination?

The Israeli army freely says the only good palestinian is a dead paliestinean.

The Isareli army is what is in power.

Now, why do you focus only on the Palestinians? Is that not merely an attempt to demonize them while ignoring what really happens in the Jewish populaiton?

Palestinians do not hate the Jews. They hate the regime that oppresses them, dispossesses them, murders them.

You are simply buying into zionist propaganda that deflects attention away from the racist nature of Israel.

Succede in demonizing the Palestinians and you remove the reason to look further than such superfical and baseless claims - the focus is on the Palestinians . . Israel is mostly ignored by Americian christians who support it. But the world is not ignoring. . the world sees the true nature of the State of Israel. It is not a country that God built.

In palestinian schools you have mickey mouse telling kids to blow up Jews and Americans.. you know, strangely, you don't find that in Jewish schools. You don't find propaganda videos made for Jewish children to blow themselves up in order to kill a palestinian. You do find that among palestinians though.

What schools Simon. . name them.

This is the defining point here. On one hand you have a liberal western government, which bends over backwards to try and placate its enemies.

Baloney! That is lie fabricated by the zonists to placate the christians in the western world. Israel is bending over backwards to ensure its goals of Greater Israel are eventually acheived. It only slows down when international pressure becomes too great and they have to give something.

All you are doing is promoting zionist propaganda here.

You have a people with typical westernized humanistic education and all that entails.

while that may be true, it doesn't end there by any means. It goes far beyond this. You have a country with a ZIONIST AGENDA of gaining GREATER ISRAEL.

On the other you have a people many of whom are steeped in hate from the moment they are born.

More Zionist propoganda . .. you are simply perpetuating what the zionists what promoted, to make Israel look like the victim when it is the agressor. Sorry, you can fool some as this used to fool me until I started looking at the facts. The facts are chilling.

Ruled by groups that train their own children to kill themselves so long as they can take a jew with them. People who dance in the streets when americans are killed.

And Jews don't dance in the streets when Palestinians or other Arabs are killed?

Why do you look the other way regarding Israel's attrocities?

And the world condemns the first group as the terrorists and a 'rogue nation'. While hailing the second as oppressed freedom fighters. It defies reason.

Not in any way shape or form. What defies reason is that people choose to believe the propaganda instead of researching the facts for themselves, which show that the first group is terrorst and its origns was in terrorism, the same terrorsm now being deployed against it, and when they were terrorists, you would have called them freedom fighers, no?

So, things only go one way here . . Israel's way. When Israel was ruled by terror gangs who used the same tactics used today against the Arabs and British, that's no big deal, right? But today, when their methods are used against them by a people they have horriblely oppressed and dispossessed, it is a big deal?

And when the Jewish terror gang leaders became the leaders of the nation of Israel, that is OK, no big deal . . but if the terrorist leaders of the Palestinians become the leaders of their nation, it is a big deal, raigh?

That is sheer hypocrasy! It is a clear and undeniable double standard.

This is what you argue. A DOUBLE STANDARD.

The only possible explanation is simply that they are all children of the same father.

Abraham?

Its the same as the interesting circumstance that the Nazi's allied with, and honored palestinian arabs, while declaring the Jews racially unfit and trying to wipe them out.. despite the fact that the palestinian arabs and the jews are the same racial family group. There is no logical explanation other than they are children of the same father.

Ummm . .. The Jewish Zionists made an agreement to fight with Hitler in WWII to support him.

Did you know that?

I think you need to get more of your facts straight.

After reading your post I began to wonder if you need to wipe the foam from your chin. The tone of the entire thing was that of irrational racist ranting.

Funny, I was thinking something similar about your rants against the Palestinians above . . .

The difference is, you are attacking and ranting against a people, a race.

I am attacking a REGIME which has nothing to do with the people themselves.

Simon spent a great deal of time attacking a race.

tlf merely attacked the policies of a regime.

No comparison whatsoever. It has become very apparent that Simon is merely projecting his own attitudes and actions onto tlf.

Frankly, I was a bit shocked, because I didn't expect that at all.

Yet you are the one here attacking a race of people, Palestinians. No one has attacked the Jewish people.

What do you think you should really be shocked at?

The attacking a regime?

Or your own attacking of a race of people?

Think about it Simon .. . really think about it.

As to educating myself, I'm very familiar with the history of zionism, and the Nation of Israel. On top of that, I've actually been there, and spent a month working with christian palestinian arabs. I also had close friends who worked with palestinian christians for several years.

The situation is tragic because the moderate, and especially christian palestinians are caught in the middle. They get persecuted by Israel because of restrictions on travel and employment that harm them economically. Yet at the same time they are often in danger of being killed by their own people who may see them as not supporting the more radical groups like Hamas.

And whose fault is this Simon? It's not the Palestinian's people fault. It is the aggressor's fault, the dispossessor's fault.

If you can't see that, I wonder what you actually saw?

All that is happening in the middle east is because of the agenda and actions of Zionists. Why don't you deal with that problem, whch is the core problem, instead of focusing on its results among the Palestinian groups who have taken to armed resistance against it?

Israel isn't perfect by any means, but the plain fact is that the palestinian organizations that dominate the palestinian people are flat out EVIL.

And so we see the full demonization of the Palestinains.

Simon, I sincerely doubt you know nearly as much about the history of this conflict as you think you do.

If you can call these Palestinian groups evil but not do the same to the actions and policies of the Israeli regime towards Palestinians, then you have a very unbalanced perspective.

They are hate incarnate and they have no compunction about killing palestinians if they get in the way, or don't go along, just as much as Jews.

Funny, how is this different than the sacrifice made by the zionists during WWII of ther Jewish brothers and sisters in Germany? They had the means and power to see them to safetly, but refused because PALESTINE was not to be their destination, instead having no compunction regarding them dying in the ovens and gas chambers so that world sympathy could be turned towards their goal of having Palestine as their homeland.

Still a double standard .. demonize the Palestinians, then you can justify not looking further.

The fact is, as long as these organizations exist, and the palestinian people continue to support them there will never be peace.

The fact is, as long as the racist Zionist regime in Israel exists, and continues to dispossess and oppress the Palesitnians, there will never be peace.

If those organizations disbanded tomorrow there would be peace. If Israel did what much of the world demands of them, tomorrow there would be no Israel.

Baloney. That is pure zionist propaganda. If the Palestinian organization disbanded, then the Palestinians would have nothing to stand in the way of their being overun by the Zionist regime on its quest of Greater Israel, which requires that the land belong to the Jews.

That is what you are asking for.

.

FrenchAffair

14th August 2007, 07:54 PM

Yeh, that's how I feel about the practice of slavery still existing on the Arabian peninsula. We could talk about that. -Albion

Why are you being defensive? Is it your notion that abortion is ok if it is Israel that is committing these acts? Slavery has been outlawed in most Arab states longer than it has in many European nations and there is no Arab state in which slavery is legal. Trafficking or own slaves here is punishable by the death penalty, as it is in most Arabian nations.

"Then we'll move to the wonderful Palestinian practice of strapping bombs onto their children and having them blow up -- not abortion clinics in Israel or Palestine -- but restaurants. -Albion"

The acts of individuals or criminal groups are not acts of government. Suicide bombing is not legal in Palestine, nor is any suicide bombing an act committed by the consensus of the Palestinian people. It is the criminal act of an individual or a group of individual. What does it have to do with this issue? To claim it is a Palestinian practice would be like me saying burning crosses and lynching a coloured person is an American practice.
Subhan Allah, Mahmood.

thereselittleflower

14th August 2007, 08:05 PM

FrenchAffair

14th August 2007, 08:39 PM

~*Lady Trekki*~

14th August 2007, 09:16 PM

Thank you for moving this thread Jim.

FA...do you have a working link on that article yet?

Tangeloper

14th August 2007, 09:16 PM

I invite those who speak of Israeli indoctrination of young children to provide source materials... Here is a sampling of what is found regarding the indoctrination of Palestinian children against Jews & Israel...

FYI:

Just a few links re: the indoctrination of children in Palestine.

Children's TV SHOWS on Al-Aqsa TV -- Palestine:
Hamas Mickey Mouse Teaches Terror to (Palestinian) Kids...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4

Farfour (Mickey Mouse) is Martyred by "Terrorists" in this episode of the Al-Aqsa Children's Show:
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1497.htm

Nahoul the Bee replaces Farfour (Mickey Mouse) and vows to continue in his path of Jihad and Martyrdom:
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1510.htm

Indoctrination in Palestinian Schools:

KINDERGARTENERS Graduation Ceremony at the Islamic Association in the Gaza Strip:
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1468.htm

(In this clip you see young male children with Machine Guns and Swords, dressed as the Al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades.)

TRANSCRIPT:
Graduation Ceremony at the Islamic Association in Gaza on Hamas TV

Following are excerpts from a report on Hamas’ Al-Aqsa TV about a graduation ceremony of kindergartens of the Islamic Association in Gaza. The report was aired on May 31, 2007.
Host: We will now take a short break to present the Palestinian childhood, and some scenes from the celebration in the kindergartens of the Islamic Association. We followed this ceremony of the graduation of the 29th class of the Islamic Association's kindergartens. Let's watch the report, and then we'll be back to complete the discussion.
Girls’ show
[...] Host:All the best. Stay with us to watch this performance by the children of Palestine.
Boys’ show
Boys: Allah Akbar. Praise be to Allah. Allah Akbar. Praise be to Allah. Allah Akbar. Praise be to Allah. Allah Akbar. Praise be to Allah. Who is your role model? The Prophet. Who is your role model? The Prophet. What is your path? Jihad. What is your path? Jihad. What is your most lofty aspiration? Death for the sake of Allah. What is your most lofty aspiration? Death for the sake of Allah.

******************

You asked in what schools do they teach children the ways of Jihad against Jews? In this interview about the "Pioneers of Tomorrow" Children's Show that features Farfour (Mickey Mouse), the head of the Al-Aqsa network states that Jihad is taught in the schools...

Hamas TV Insists on Continuing Inciting Children TV Show
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1446.htm

*************************************
More clips regarding Islamic Indoctrination of Children into Jihad against Israel and Jews:
http://www.memritv.org/content/en/all_clips/0/0/0/0/178/index.htm

**************************************
The following clips are available on the Palestinian Media Watch Website:
http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part3.html
Children as Combatants in PA Ideology:
1.) Four-year-old girl vows to be a suicide terrorist in Hamas TV dramatization - March 21, 2007
2.) Hamas video promotes terrorism among children - March 25, 2007
3.) Hizbullah video directing children through a cartoon clip to Shahada - Al-Manar TV June 2002
4.) Teaching Children They Can Destroy Israeli Symbols - PATV July 26, 2006
5.) PA Child: "Daddy bought me a machine gun and a rifle" - PA TV February 26, 2006
6.) Talking Chick Promotes Massacre with AK-47 (On a children's program discussing the importance of trees) -- PA TV October 22, 2004
7.) Mother Sends Her Sons to Fight and Die (Music Video) -- PA produced video
8.) Song and Dance to Violence - An MTV Style music video from PATV - March 2002 - October 2004 (Repeatedly)
9.) Child Soldiers of the PA - PA TV
10.) Music Video to Children: Fight and "Don't be Afraid" - Repeatedly broadcast 2000-2003
11.) PA Teaches Young Children to Replace Toys with Rocks -- PA TV repeatedly in 2001
12.) Kill all the Jews - Words of a Palestinian Teenager on TV -- PA TV
13.) PA Children Taught to be Combatants - Visual Messages -- PA TV

***********************************

INFO on PALESTINIAN SCHOOLBOOKS:
http://www.pmw.org.il/schoolbooks.html

Tangeloper

14th August 2007, 09:31 PM

Thank you for moving this thread Jim.

FA...do you have a working link on that article yet?
Lady Trekki:

I've searched the Jerusalem Post Website using several terms, and have found no articles about this on their site.

I also did a general Google Search using the term: Abortion Clinic Jericho and the only thing I found was this very thread on CF?

I'm very curious about the claims made by FA about this story, and also about the claims that Palestinian women are forced to have abortions in Israeli Jails. I also did a search on that and came up with nothing to support that claim, either.

FrenchAffair

14th August 2007, 09:37 PM

Israeli Textbooks and Children’s Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs

Israeli school textbooks as well as children’s storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as “murderers,” “rioters,” “suspicious,” and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.

Professor Daniel Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University studied 124 elementary, middle- and high school textbooks on grammar and Hebrew literature, history, geography and citizenship. Bar-Tal concluded that Israeli textbooks present the view that Jews are involved in a justified, even humanitarian, war against an Arab enemy that refuses to accept and acknowledge the existence and rights of Jews in Israel.

“The early textbooks tended to describe acts of Arabs as hostile, deviant, cruel, immoral, unfair, with the intention to hurt Jews and to annihilate the State of Israel. Within this frame of reference, Arabs were delegitimized by the use of such labels as ‘robbers,’ ‘bloodthirsty,’ and ‘killers,’” said Professor Bar-Tal, adding that there has been little positive revision in the curriculum over the years.

Bar-Tal pointed out that Israeli textbooks continue to present Jews as industrious, brave and determined to cope with the difficulties of “improving the country in ways they believe the Arabs are incapable of.”

Hebrew-language geography books from the 1950s through 1970s focused on the glory of Israel’s ancient past and how the land was “neglected and destroyed” by the Arabs until the Jews returned from their forced exile and revived it “with the help of the Zionist movement.”

“This attitude served to justify the return of the Jews, implying that they care enough about the country to turn the swamps and deserts into blossoming farmland; this effectively delegitimizes the Arab claim to the same land,” Bar-Tal told the Washington Report. “The message was that the Palestinians were primitive and neglected the country and did not cultivate the land.”

This message, continued Bar-Tal, was further emphasized in textbooks by the use of blatant negative stereotyping which featured Arabs as: “unenlightened, inferior, fatalistic, unproductive and apathetic.” Further, according to the textbooks, the Arabs were “tribal, vengeful, exotic, poor, sick, dirty, noisy, colored” and “they burn, murder, destroy, and are easily inflamed.”

Textbooks currently being used in the Israeli school system, says Bar-Tal, contain less direct denigration of Arabs but continue to stereotype them negatively when referring to them. He pointed out that Hebrew- as well as Arabic-language textbooks used in elementary and junior high schools contain very few references either to Arabs or to Arab-Jewish relations. The coordinator of a Palestinian NGO in Israel said that major historical events hardly get a mention either.

“When I was in high school 12 years ago, the date ‘1948’ barely appeared in any textbooks except for a mention that there was a conflict, Palestinians refused to accept a U.N. solution and ran away instead,” said Jamal Atamneh, coordinator of the Arab Education Committee in Support of Local Councils, a Haifa-based NGO. “Today the idea communicated to schoolchildren is basically the same: there are winners and losers in every conflict. When they teach about ‘peace and co-existence,’ it is to teach us how to get along with Jews.”

Atamneh explained that textbooks used by the nearly one million Arab Israelis (one-fifth of Israel’s population) are in Arabic but are written by and issued from the Israeli Ministry of Education, where Palestinians have no influence or input.

“Fewer than 1 percent of the jobs in the Education Ministry, not counting teachers, are held by Palestinians,” Atamneh said. “For the past 15 years, not one new Palestinian academic has been placed in a high position in the ministry. There are no Palestinians involved in preparing the Arabic-language curriculum [and] obviously, there is no such thing as affirmative action in Israel.”

In addition, there are no Arabic-language universities in Israel. Haifa University, Atamneh points out, has had a steady 20 percent Arab student population for the past 20 years. “How can that figure have remained the same after all these years when the population in the north [of Israel] has grown to over 50 percent Arab?”

Answering his own question, Atamneh rattles off statistics that reflect excellent high school scores among Arab students which he contrasts to their subsequent lower-than-average performance in Hebrew-language college entrance exams given by the state.

“No major scholarships have ever been awarded to an Arab; there are no dorms for Arabs and no college-related jobs or financial aid programs. They justify this legal discrimination by the fact that we do not serve in the army. There are numerous blatant and official methods used to keep Palestinian Arabs out of the universities.”

Absence of Palestinian Identity in Schoolbooks
Dr. Eli Podeh, lecturer in the Department of Islamic Studies and Middle East History at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, says that while certain changes in Israeli textbooks are slowly being implemented, the discussion of Palestinian national and civil identity is never touched upon.

“Passages from ‘experts’ about the existence of a Palestinian identity were introduced, but in general it appeared that the textbook authors were not eager to adopt it,” said Dr. Podeh, adding that “the connection between Palestinians in Israel and Arabs in Arab countries is not discussed. Especially evident is the lack of a discussion on the orientation of Palestinians to the [occupied] territories.

“While new textbooks attempt to correct some of the earlier distortions, these books as well contain overt and covert fabrications,” said Dr. Podeh. “The establishment has preferred—or felt itself forced—to encourage the cover-up and condemn the perplexity.”

One Israeli public high school student told the Washington Report that the contents of the schoolbooks and the viewpoints expressed by some teachers indeed have a lasting negative effect on youngsters’ attitudes toward Palestinians.

“Our books basically tell us that everything the Jews do is fine and legitimate and Arabs are wrong and violent and are trying to exterminate us,” said Daniel Banvolegyi, a 17-year-old high school student in Jerusalem.

“We are accustomed to hearing the same thing, only one side of the story. They teach us that Israel became a state in 1948 and that the Arabs started a war. They don’t mention what happened to the Arabs—they never mention anything about refugees or Arabs having to leave their towns and homes,” said Banvolegyi.

Banvolegyi, who will be a high school senior this fall, and then will be drafted into the Israeli army next summer, said he argues with his friends about what he regards as racism in the textbooks and on the part of the teachers. He pointed out a worrisome example of how damaging the textbooks and prevailing attitudes can be.

“One kid told me he was angry because of something he read or discussed in school and that he felt like punching the first Arab he saw,” said Banvolegyi. “Instead of teaching tolerance and reconciliation, the books and some teachers’ attitudes are increasing hatred for Arabs.”

Banvolegyi spoke about his schoolmates who, he says, “are dying to go into combat and kill Arabs. I try to talk to them but they say I don’t care about this country. But I do care and that’s why I tell them peace and justice are the only ways to work things out.”

Racist Israeli Upbringing
Considering what the schools have to offer, both Banvolegyi and Atamneh agree that the oral tradition is one of the few ways to get the story straight.

“Unfortunately Israeli children’s books are not an option for promoting equality in this society,” said Atamneh, citing a book written by Israeli writer/researcher Adir Cohen called An Ugly Face in the Mirror.

Cohen’s book is a study of the nature of children’s upbringing in Israel, concentrating on how the historical establishment sees and portrays Arab Palestinians as well as how Jewish Israeli children perceive Palestinians. One section of the book was based on the results of a survey taken of a group of 4th to 6th grade Jewish students at a school in Haifa. The pupils were asked five questions about their attitude toward Arabs, how they recognize them and how they relate to them. The results were as shocking as they were disturbing:

Seventy five percent of the children described the “Arab” as a murderer, one who kidnaps children, a criminal and a terrorist. Eighty percent said they saw the Arab as someone dirty with a terrifying face. Ninety percent of the students stated they believe that Palestinians have no rights whatsoever to the land in Israel or Palestine

Cohen also researched 1,700 Israeli children’s books published after 1967. He found that 520 of the books contained humiliating, negative descriptions of Palestinians. He also took pains to break down the descriptions:

Sixty six percent of the 520 books refer to Arabs as violent; 52 percent as evil; 37 percent as liars; 31 percent as greedy; 28 percent as two-faced; 27 percent as traitors, etc.

Cohen points out that the authors of these children’s books effectively instill hatred toward Arabs by means of stripping them of their human nature and classifying them in another category. In a sampling of 86 books, Cohen counted the following descriptions used to dehumanize Arabs: Murderer was used 21 times; snake, 6 times; dirty, 9 times; vicious animal, 17 times; bloodthirsty, 21 times; warmonger, 17 times; killer, 13 times; believer in myths, 9 times; and a camel’s hump, 2 times.

Cohen’s study concludes that such descriptions of Arabs are part and parcel of convictions and a culture rampant in Hebrew literature and history books. He writes that Israeli authors and writers confess to deliberately portraying the Arab character in this way, particularly to their younger audience, in order to influence their outlook early on so as to prepare them to deal with Arabs.

“So you can see that if you grew up reading or studying from these books, you’d never know anything else,” said Atamneh.

“But in the case of Palestinians, we grow up 500 meters away from what used to be a town or village and is now a Jewish settlement. Our parents and grandparents tell us all about it; endlessly they talk about it. It’s the only way.”

FrenchAffair

14th August 2007, 09:39 PM

Tangeloper

14th August 2007, 09:44 PM

Thank you for the information FA...

Please provide source information such as: Author, publication name, publication dates, URL (if any), etc... with your materials.

Also, please address the fact that your link is broken from JPost, and no articles can be found regarding the Jericho Abortion Clinic even through Google and internet searches. (I'm still checking some other sources, myself).

Also, please provide source information regarding Forced Abortions on Palestinian Women in Israeli Jails. I could find nothing on that yet, either.

ADDITION:
After searches through Google, Dogpile, and several Palestinian News Sources (Palestinian Newspapers), and several Israeli Newspapers I can find no such article detailing the story you originally posted about. The ONLY thing that comes up in the internet searches is this thread on CF. One would think that even if JPost pulled the article, that Palestinian newspapers would have information available about this. Again, FA -- please provide the DATE of this article, and a working link.

Hentenza

14th August 2007, 09:46 PM

FA, I agree that abortion is evil, but are these Palestinian women being dragged into the clinic against their will to have abortions? Are Israeli soldiers forcing these Palestinian women to have abortions? -Hentenza

It is Israeli policy that all Palestinian women arrested and jailed who are under 4 months with child, the child is forcibly terminated.

Like with any business, if they have no business they will close. Why are these Palestinian women having abortions?-Hentenza

Why would any woman? I feel mental illness is chief among the reasons.
Subhan Allah, Mahmood.

I don't believe that to be the case. Here is the Israel law concerning abortion.

Abortion in Israel: Terms of Termination

A 1977 law ensures a low-cost, and in some cases free, legal abortion to any woman who fills one of four criteria:

She is under 18 or over 40 (cost to those in between: 1,500 shekels [$370]).
She is carrying a fetus with a serious mental or physical defect (free).
She claims that the fetus results from forbidden relations such as rape or incest (free) or, in the case of a married woman, that the baby is not her husband's (not free). Single women also fall under this clause, and they too must pay.
She shows that by continuing the pregnancy, her physical or mental health would be damaged (free).
In 1980, a fifth criterion that allowed abortions for women living in economic hardship was abolished due to pressure from religious political parties.
A woman who seeks to terminate a pregnancy must appear before one of the 41 abortion committees operating in public and private hospitals around the country. These committees include three members — a physician whose field of expertise is obstetrics and gynecology; another physician who is either a family doctor, psychiatrist, internist or gynecologist, and a social worker. At least one woman must be present on each committee.
Six separate committees consider requests for termination when a fetus is beyond 24 weeks old. No hospitals in Jerusalem, however, will perform these abortions.
In 1999, 19,674 applications out of 20,581 were approved (96%) and 18,785 pregnancies were terminated. In addition, 16,000 abortions were illegally performed in private doctors' clinics. In general, about 40,000 abortions are carried out in Israel every year. The Health Ministry approves about half of them, and private doctors perform the rest, without the supervision of the state and at the cost of thousands of shekels.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Health/abort1.html

The burden of proof is yours. Can you cite any references to your assertion that "It is Israeli policy that all Palestinian women arrested and jailed who are under 4 months with child, the child is forcibly terminated." Can you provide any proof?

Tangeloper

14th August 2007, 11:17 PM

FA...do you have a working link on that article yet?

I have found no other English link, the article was over one and half year old so it is difficult, especially when western media does not cover Palestinian issues.

If it was over a year and a half old, how did you come across the link to start this thread -- perhaps you could share with us your source of this information? And, if you have a link, as your statement implies, in a different language why not supply it? There are many ways to do online translations into English even if the website doesn't provide it.

thereselittleflower

15th August 2007, 02:00 AM

To be honest with you, the PA shouldn't exist at all, the fact that it does is nothing but a consesion to terrorism by a people who are willing to risk cutting their own throat for the remote chance that their rabidly racist, hate-mongering neighbors can be reasoned with and might actually some day desire peace.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I am sure that others feel that, to be honest, the State of Israel should not exist at all, at least as a Zionist controlled state.

I personally feel that the State of Israel needs a regime change fast, to one that promotes equal rights for all regardless of race, ethnicity, religion, etc.

Israel claims to be a "democracy", but it is anything but, simply using democracy's trappings to further its political and ideological goals.

Israel is a democracy for only one group, the Jews . . all others have limited access to its political power.

Secondly, the PA is not a sovereign nation. It is an administrative district which exists by consession from the Israeli government. It does not have the rights of a sovereign nation, and what rights it does have were given to it by the Israeli Government.

Excuse me? Um . . are you honestly suggesting the UN and its partitions and resolutions have nothing to do with anything?

Since when did Israel become supreme in Palestine? Since when does Israel own all of Palestine?

Your comments are disengenuous at best, and betray the military nature of Israel's dealings with Palestinians . . Israel thumbs its nose at tne many UN resolutions against it. Israel does what it pleases and thinks it can get away with. If that is what you are referring to, then by all means, because Isarel disregards the UN and the right of the Palestinians to be soveriign nation and to respect that right, they take the emperialist approach and see themselves as the empire giving what is not theirs to give.

In reality it is Israel taking from the Palestinian people what belongs to the Palestinians, their soveriengty.

It appears you support this emperialistic attitude towards the Palestinians.

Please. This shows complete and total ignorance of the Israeli people and the nation of Israel as it exists today.

Hardly Simon. I have been immersing myself into the actual history of the region, reading original source documents, and am not taken it in the least by such propaganda as you present here.

The Palestinian Authority would not even exist if Israel had not established it in an effort to placate the palestinians who have been waging a terrorist war against Israel for half a century.

I suppose next you'll be telling me that the evil Jew bankers started WWII for their profit and that the Holocaust is a hoax.

The Holocaust was not a hoax, though I will make no comment as to the veracity of the numbers given. It happened.

But it happened because JEWISH POLITICAL ZIONISTS ALLOWED it to happen . . As I said above, they had the means and ability to get the majority of jews out of Hitler's way, but because Palestine was where the Jews so escaping would end up, they said no, that it would be better for them to perish then to go to another country in safety. It was theiir "sacrifice" for acheiving their goals of Palestine as their homeland. It worked.

Sound harsh and unbelievable? I thought so too, until I read what was actually said and done for myself.

Chilling. .absolutely chilling.

But, go ahead and continue to demonize the Palesitnians . . it simply means you have provided an excuse for yourself not to look at the state of Israel and its orgins more closely.

For well over 30 years I was fulled by the rhetoric and propaganda like that you are presenting above here. Once one seeks the truth above all else, the propaganda can't fool them anymore.

It seems to me that the truth represents some kind of danger to you, otherwise, I don't know why you don't pursue it. . . .

Lastly, God's promises are always fulfilled, and they never come up empty. Thus the Israel you describe will exist because it was promised.

And so we see the "Promise" card being played, as if it means anything in reality.

The "promise" card is so fraught with problems.

First, where is the promise of the land today? . .. That is what you claim. That is what you CAN'T prove . . That is why I totally turned my back on dispensationalism a few years ago . . . The promise WAS FULFILLED. it says so in Joshua. David's and Solomon's empire extended from the Euphrates to the Sea to the River of Egypt. It is done. Over with.

The promise was never an eternal, undending promise. It was for an age, OLAM.

THERE IS NO MORE PROMISE of the land to the descendants of Abraham, and if there was, then it belongs to the Chrisitans for Paul says WE are the descendants of Abraham. ;)

Second, it was made to Abraham and his descendants. No Jew can prove he/she is a descendant of Abraham today.

Most of the Jews today are descended from converts.

So, to whom does the promise belong if you say it is still in force? Where are the actual DESCENDANTS of Abraham? It was not promised to those who would covert . . it was promised to those who came from HIS SEED.

So where are they? Point them out!

You can't? Of course you can't. So since you can't, there is nothing to support your claim above.

So far, your arguments are falling flat on their face.

The irony here is that the nation of Israel is doing just about everything they can to prevent this because they keep giving up land for peace, only to be attacked again and have more consessions demanded.

Just more propaganda. Of course they have to give up land taken and occupied illegally if they want peace.

That is only logical. And no, what they do is then instigate further attacks by attacking the Palestinians, opressing them, further dispossessing them . . they remove x thousands of settlers from one area, "giving back" the terriroty to the palestinians, then move Jewish settler's into another area, double the number which had been removed from the first, forcing even more Palestinians off their land.

You need to get a better grasp of the situation if you want to be able to intelligently argue or discuss this with me.

The idea that the government of Israel is a racist regime bent on world domination is laughable.

No, what's laughable is your totally ignoring the evidence that is presented that demonstrates that it is indeed racist, which is a logial fallacy known as IGNORES FACTS IN EVIDENCE.

You have totally avoided the questions put to you . .

Why can only Jews own land in the vast majority of Israel?

Why can only Jews marry Jews, even if the Jew is atheist? Why can't non-Jews marry Jews in Israel?

Why do the laws of Israel promote the rights of those of the Jewish race, but subjugate all others?

ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS if you want to be taken seriously. Otherwise, you are proving how slanted and unbalanced your "facts" really are.

Furthermore:

Are you going to deny that the goal of the Zionist regime in Israel is "Greater Israel"?

Are you going to deny that "Greater Israel" refers to ALL the land promised to Abraham?

Are you going to deny that the fathers of the State of Israel told the UN this is exactly what they wanted, ALL of it?

If you deny these things, then you simply demonstrate the very large deficiency in your knowledge regarding actual events leading to where we are today.

The question is, will you acknowledge them, or simply continue to ignore them as you have other facts which reveal the propagandist nature of your arguments and claims?

This is the kind of propaganda that only racists really believe.

And here we have more AD HOMINEM, demonizing those who dare to question the popularist opinion, promoted by zionist propaganda, both Jewish and Christian.

Simon, you have picked the wrong person if you think you are going to intimidate me with such nonsense.

A Christian has nothing to fear from the truth, for Christianity is supposed to be about the truth. But here you are trying to prevent the truth from being seen and known . . why are you afraid of it?

Does truth matter? Or does the comfort of your popularist notion bekon stronger?

Israel was created specifically to be a Jewish homeland, and a place where Jews, who have been severely persecuted in every land (with the exception of the US) can live according to their laws.

And here we have it! The racist underpinnings of the entire issue right here, in your very own words!

Let's look at it again:
Israel was created specifically to be a Jewish homeland, and a place where Jews, who have been severely persecuted in every land (with the exception of the US) can live according to their laws

Now, you might say, "why not"?

Well, why not? Did they move into a land not occupied by anyone else?

Or did they move into a land and forceably disposses through various means, through purchase from absent landlords, or through terrorst gangs attacking entire villages, through making the lives of the Palestinians in the areas they wanted so intolerable, that they fled in fear?

WHAT JUSTICE IS THERE in supporting one group, by forcefully dispossesing another just so they can take the land that belonged to someone else, and make their own homeland on it?

They just wanted . . . and didn't care who they hurt in the process or what attrocities they carreid out against innoncent people to acheive their goals.

The idea that they are obliged to allow themselves to be killed and destroyed from the face of the earth to placate a bunch of blood thirsty muslims is insane, plain and simple.

More demonizing, which assauges the conscience, giving it some supposed reason not to investigate Israel more closely.

Sorry, you won't get anywhere by demonizing muslims or Palestinians, or using your rhetoric with me.

Start answering the questions posed to you. Start dealing with the facts.

Yet that is what the majority of world opinion on this issue amounts to.

Horsefeathers! Absolutely baloney!

Now, demonize the world . . it is Israel and the few christians who suport it against the world. What a persecution complex! What propaganda! Very good for getting people to look away from Israel and what Israel has been doing and what its goals really are.

The Arab world is not deceived. They remember well the clearly stated intentions of the jewish zionist founders of Israel to dispossess them all of their land, not just Palestine. They remember well the duplicity of the jewish zionists with the Jews caught up in the holocaust, forcing their fate, while siding with Hitler to fight with his forces on his side.

Most of the western world is not deceived either . . Just people who believe the pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian propaganda neing paraded here as truth. :doh: :swoon:

This kind of unreasoning hatred of the Jewish people is demonic.

Again, more demonizing of those who seek the truth rather than be content with the popularist zionist propaganda favoring Israel, porptraying it as the victim, while demonizing the arabs.

You bear false witness against your neighbor . . absolutely NO ONE here has spoken a word of hatred towards the Jewish PEOPLE!

Your slanderous statements have been duly noted. If they continue, they will be construed harrassment.

you should try learning a little history.

It is becoming painfully obvious by now that it is not I who am significiantly deficient in their understanding of history.

Please consider how you are projecting your own deficiencies onto others.

.

thereselittleflower

15th August 2007, 02:06 AM

The Jews and palestinians in the middle east lived in relative peace until Muslim's allied with the Nazi's (specifically the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Arafat's uncle) began instigating riots, and advocating the death of all the Jews in palestine. Then after the war when the Nation of Israel was created, it was immediately attacked on all sides by the arab states, and many of the palestinians sided with the arab states in an attempt to exterminate the Jewish population before the nation could get a foot hold.

And every last bit of Zionist terrorism and aggresion, every incident of zionist ethnic cleansing in the years leading to, and after, the declaration of the state of Israel by the zionists is completely and totally WHITEWASHED from your "rendition" of history.

You see, I have read the actual UN reports from that time frame. I know what happened. I am no longer a prisoner to the propaganda of arab hate your agenda here is to promote. Your whitewashed portrayal of history has absolutely no impact on me, but to further demonstrate your utter lack of knowlede of the true facts of the matter, or your utter lack of desire to know the truth.

The palestinians aren't autonomous, or sovereign. They have limited governmental authority in civil and security related areas. The fact that they have that, is a testament to Israel's long suffering nature and in my opinion, unreasonable optimism that peace can be achieved with the palestinians.

Not at all. The fact that they have that is testimony to the fact that Israel understands that it still has to be accountable in some minimal way to the international community, if it wants to have enough public opinion on its side and doesn't dare, yet, totally dispossess them.

The magnitude of the lies and twisting of the truth present in this view point never fails to astound me.

You have not proven one thing I have said is a lie or a twisting of the truth.

This is more AD HOMINEM, and it uses another logical fallacy called ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.

You can ASSUME anything you want. It doesn't mean anything really.

Accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing is beyond reason.

Thank you for sharing your opinion, however, the facts, when honestly examined reveal the actual situation is otherwise.

The palestinians are the terrorists in this situation.

They have engaged in terrorism almost everywhere they've gone from Lebenon, to jordan to Israel.

And the demonizing of a race continues, ad nauaeum.

Notice what was said, "the PALESTINIANS are the terrorists . . . "

NOT "the radical elements are the terrorists . . . . "

But, "THE PALESTINIANS", and so the demonizing of a RACE, of an ETHNIC PEOPLE continues unabated! :eek:. ..

THIS is the result of putting Israel on such a high pedestal that one cannot look honestly at the facts on the ground.

When a RACE OF PEOPLE are spoken of in such a manner, it reveals something terrible within those who do so . . .

This is racism by definition:
Judging an individual based solely on his or her racial affiliation.
highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072863129/student_view0/chapter14/key_terms.html

Simon's comments above judge a multitude of individuals in a horrible, demonizing fashion based solely on their race.

You're comments here have no relation whatsoever to sane reality.

One has to wonder then where sanity lies, whether it lies in the crtical evalutation of a REGIME governing a nation involved in many crimes against humanity in its dealings with the Palestinian people, or in the demonizing of an entire race/ethnic people as we see happening repeatedly above.

That's not a hard question to answer.

Refering to the Stern gang and the Haganah and Irgun as terrorists and then calling the Palestinian's freedom fighters and persecuted peoples is the heights of hypocrisy.

This is a strawman, attempting to twist what was said into something else, especially apparent as I have referred to both as terrorism.

This is nothing but an attempt to deflect attention away from the double standard employed by Simon in his disparate treatment of Zionist Terror Gangs, the terrorist foundations of the State of Israel including the fact that major Israeli leaders were leaders of these terror gangs, and the Palestinian terrorists.

This is infomation those who are pro-Israel don't really want known, as it makes it hard to justify their demonizing attacks on the Palestinian people.

I guess what was good for the goose is not good for the gander . . . .

The Haganah formed as a result of the fact that as early as the 1920's palestinians had mounted armed attacks on Jewish populations and had rioted killing Jews. The British mandate established at roughly the same time was established specifically for the purpose of establishing a Jewish homeland at the behest of the League of Nations. Yet the british administration did literaly nothing to punish the palestinians who were attacking the Jewish communities, nor anything to defend the Jews.
The result was that Haganah (meaning "the defense")was formed to protect Jewish communities. Originally the Haganah was just localized militia charged with defending farms. It didn't become more organized as a para-military organization until after the occurance week long riot in which over a hundred jews were murdered by palestinians.

The haganah was essentially a Jewish army by the time the Arab population fomented open rebellion against the British mandate in the 1930's. This revolt is what lead to the exile of the grand mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin Husayni (sp) (Arafat's uncle). During his exile, Hajj spent a good deal of time in Nazi Germany with his good buddy Hitler, and he openly praised the 'final solution' as a great idea.

The Haganah was a legitimate self-defense movement. The more militant radical members of Haganah split off and formed the group Irgun which took a more agressive policy. Irgun later split again producing the Stern Gang which were the most radical of all the Jewish groups.

Irgun was more agressive towards palestinians believing that defensive strategy was not enough and that retaliation was necessary to curb Arab violence against Jews. The Stern Gang, in turn split off because they believed it was necessary to actively attack the british presense in Palestine. The british had severely restricted Jewish immagration to palestine despite the fact that their mandate was to create a Jewish state.
The Stern Gang, and to a lesser degree the Irgun were seen by the british as terrorist organizations. Irgun because they retaliated against palestinians, and Stern gang because they openly attacked the British, and even resorted to assasination.

Most would agree that the stern gang were terrorists, Irgun would probably be a little more questionable, but they did resort to bombing civilian targets and such.

Haganah, would eventually become the core of the Israeli army after the establishment of the State, and many of the leaders of Haganah became important political figures.

-Cont-

Let's look at REAL history a little, shall we? Let's take a broader look than just what was presented above:

Until the British gave the country to the Zionists there had never been any history of anti-Jewish outbreaks. Under the Turks much of the countryside was given over to banditry but it never was aimed at Jews as such. Jewish religious pilgrims had been settling in the country for centuries and had met with nothing worse than patronizing contempt. Everyone who encountered them, Arabs, Zionists, Christian travellers, the British, despised them. The ultimate in fanaticism, they came to pray at the Wailing Wall and to die on holy soil. Most were elderl