Wiki: Word of Faith forum (2)

[God_Owned]

please post, voting for either #1, #2, or #3. We'll be putting up a series of these 'capsulized' WOF belief statements. when we finish choosing the best versions of each, we'll put them all up for a final vote to determine if they are generally held WOF beliefs which should be included in the wiki.

I vote for # 3.:wave:

[Trish1947]

I vote for #2.

[DavidPresently]

I guess we need to get focused on the task at hand..



I like it..

could we add to renewing of our mind, through the Word of God. That way for the unlearned that read it, it's not interpreted as some sort of mind hyjinks we perform? Or maybe quote Rom. 12:2?

Yes, and we can also add the word submission in there for leadworship.

[DavidPresently]

1. We believe whatsoever a man says, not doubting in his heart, but believing that those things which he says shall come to pass, that he shall have whatsoever he says. We believe we therefore need the Word of God to transform us by the renewing of our mind and speak those things in faith, that the Word of God says, in submission to God. (Mark 11:22-28; Matthew 8:8; Romans 10:8-10, 17; 12:2; Proverbs 18:21, James 4:7)

[DavidPresently]

I guess my new on in the post above can be #4.

I like it best because

1. it has much wording straight from Scripture, rather than churchanese. Just as with others we discussed in the SoF, I like sticking with how Scripture says it, or very closely as long as meaning isn't changed.

2. It includes every component suggested/desired by others so far. This is about all of us as a group, so our statement should reflect as much as possible what we all agree to put in. The other statements leave some things out, including the actual way Scripture puts it.

[LeadWorship]

If this is #4, then my vote is for it.
1. We believe whatsoever a man says, not doubting in his heart, but believing that those things which he says shall come to pass, that he shall have whatsoever he says. We believe we therefore need the Word of God to transform us by the renewing of our mind and speak those things in faith, that the Word of God says, in submission to God. (Mark 11:22-28; Matthew 8:8; Romans 10:8-10, 17; 12:2; Proverbs 18:21, James 4:7)


Thanks for adding in the submission part. You guys are all so happy to get along scripturally!

[pdudgeon]

the original #2. has been revised as requested, and the revised version is below.
Quote:
1. We believe in standing on the promises of God, which God made to all believers in His Word, by confessing these promises in faith, believing that what we confess will be made manifest in our lives regardless of the circumstances we face.
(Mark 11:22-24, Matthew 8:8, Romans 10:8-10, Proverbs 18:21)

Quote:
2.We believe whatsoever a man says, not doubting in his heart, but believing that those things which he says shall come to pass, that he shall have whatsoever he says. We believe we therefore need the word of God to transform us by the renewing of our mind and speak those things in faith, that the Word of God says, in submission to God. (Mark 11:22-28; Matthew 8:8; Romans 10:8-10, 17; 12:2; Proverbs 18:21, James 4:7)

Quote:
3. We believe in confessing what God says in His Word and standing on those promises, in faith believing, even in the face or contrary circumstances, until it is manifested in the natural. (Mark 11:22-28, Matthew 8:8,
Romans 10:8-10, Proverbs 18:21, )


votes:
#1.
#2.LeadWorship, DavidPresently, Trish 1947
#3.J4Jesus, God_Owned, pdudgeon

[God_Owned]

I break the tie by voting twice for number 3. ^_^

[J4Jesus]

I break the tie by voting twice for number 3. ^_^
double personality? ;)



:eek: Is Pete going to have to be the bad guy? ^_^

[pdudgeon]

no, we still have others to vote--probinson, Christina M, lyonguard, to name three.:)

[probinson]

Hmmmm... tough call. They all are good.

But I think I will vote for #2.

[pdudgeon]

updating........

Quote:
1. We believe in standing on the promises of God, which God made to all believers in His Word, by confessing these promises in faith, believing that what we confess will be made manifest in our lives regardless of the circumstances we face.
(Mark 11:22-24, Matthew 8:8, Romans 10:8-10, Proverbs 18:21)

Quote:
2.We believe whatsoever a man says, not doubting in his heart, but believing that those things which he says shall come to pass, that he shall have whatsoever he says. We believe we therefore need the word of God to transform us by the renewing of our mind and speak those things in faith, that the Word of God says, in submission to God. (Mark 11:22-28; Matthew 8:8; Romans 10:8-10, 17; 12:2; Proverbs 18:21, James 4:7)

Quote:
3. We believe in confessing what God says in His Word and standing on those promises, in faith believing, even in the face or contrary circumstances, until it is manifested in the natural. (Mark 11:22-28, Matthew 8:8,
Romans 10:8-10, Proverbs 18:21, )

votes:
#1.
#2.LeadWorship, DavidPresently, Trish 1947, probinson
#3.J4Jesus, God_Owned, pdudgeon

[God_Owned]

double personality? ;)



:eek: Is Pete going to have to be the bad guy? ^_^

lol ^_^ ^_^

[J4Jesus]

Well it looked like no one else was going to show up :doh: No one was here today either. I kept looking.

[LeadWorship]

*crickets chirp*




*crickets chirp*

On a side note, do crickets really chirp? I mean, when birds chirp they use their vocals and crickets just rub their legs together. Does this "leg rubbing" qualify as a chirp?

[DavidPresently]

Hmmmm... tough call. They all are good.

But I think I will vote for #2.

I hope and pray for you this next year is better than the previous, and that you increase and prosper further and further.

Shalom,

David

[DavidPresently]

*crickets chirp*




*crickets chirp*

On a side note, do crickets really chirp? I mean, when birds chirp they use their vocals and crickets just rub their legs together. Does this "leg rubbing" qualify as a chirp?

To us it sounds like a "chirp-chirp, chirp-chirp." So maybe we name it as it sounds, rather than as it scientifically is done. Vocal chords simply vibrate to make noise like those moving cricket legs. So, I'm not sure if where in the anatomy the sound comes from should determine the name we give it.

But, for the sake of being open on this - what would you call the sound crickets make with their legs rubbing if not chirping? Cricket music? Like they are playing violins or something? Is there another name for what we call stringed instrument sounds, like from violins, which is similar to crickets rubbing their legs?

:)

[J4Jesus]

*crickets chirp*




*crickets chirp*

On a side note, do crickets really chirp? I mean, when birds chirp they use their vocals and crickets just rub their legs together. Does this "leg rubbing" qualify as a chirp?

LOL ^_^
No one here but just us crickets! ;)
Thanks I'd needed a good laugh

Don't know why still no one is showing up but glad you are here anyway :)

[J4Jesus]

To us it sounds like a "chirp-chirp, chirp-chirp." So maybe we name it as it sounds, rather than as it scientifically is done. Vocal chords simply vibrate to make noise like those moving cricket legs. So, I'm not sure if where in the anatomy the sound comes from should determine the name we give it.

But, for the sake of being open on this - what would you call the sound crickets make with their legs rubbing if not chirping? Cricket music? Like they are playing violins or something? Is there another name for what we call stringed instrument sounds, like from violins, which is similar to crickets rubbing their legs?

:)

:preach:
Preacher turned into science instructor :D

[J4Jesus]

Pete

A HAPPY HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU !:clap:
A HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU ! :clap:

But it says in 6 days so why does it also already say you are 30? :scratch: Are you getting old before your time?:eek:

[J4Jesus]

no, we still have others to vote--probinson, Christina M, lyonguard, to name three.:)

Pete voted but maybe someone needs to contact these two

[probinson]

Pete

A HAPPY HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU !:clap:
A HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU ! :clap:

But it says in 6 days so why does it also already say you are 30? :scratch: Are you getting old before your time?:eek:
Good grief! I sure hope not!

30! That's a 3, not a 2, as the first digit, for those keeping score. :eek:

I'm just kidding. A little older and a little wiser... :D

[J4Jesus]

Good grief! I sure hope not!

30! That's a 3, not a 2, as the first digit, for those keeping score. :eek:

I'm just kidding. A little older and a little wiser... :D

I thought I told you Happy Birthday last week so have you hit the big 30 yet or next week?

[probinson]

I thought I told you Happy Birthday last week so have you hit the big 30 yet or next week?
My birthday is 6 days from now, August 29. I will be 30 next Wednesday.

[DavidPresently]

:preach:
Preacher turned into science instructor :D

:amen:

[DavidPresently]

Good grief! I sure hope not!

30! That's a 3, not a 2, as the first digit, for those keeping score.

I'm just kidding. A little older and a little wiser...

I still have a 2 as my first digit - ha! :P

But, whether this is a good thing or whether hitting 30 will be a better thing is yet to be seen for me...:cool: I'm looking forward to the results though- as I think this wine gets better with age...;)

I'm sure you are getting better with age too - so congrats. :clap:

[Trish1947]

My birthday is 6 days from now, August 29. I will be 30 next Wednesday.
Oh, man..your just a young wippersnapper yet. Just 10 years ago you were 20! I can't even remember what I was doing at 30. ^_^ Have a great birthday!!

[J4Jesus]

My birthday is 6 days from now, August 29. I will be 30 next Wednesday.

Then there is a glitch in this thing. How terrible making you older than you are! :doh:
You're still 29 until the 29th :)

[J4Jesus]

I still have a 2 as my first digit - ha! :P
---But, whether this is a good thing or whether hitting 30 will be a better thing is yet to be seen for me--
Don't brag it won't belong! Hopefully you will be even MORE wise oh wise one ;)

Oh, man..your just a young wippersnapper yet. ------
:scratch: wippersnapper :
And the definition of that is .................. :confused:

[Trish1947]

probinson...:scratch: wippersnapper :
And the definition of that is .................. :confused:



I'm so sorry probinson...I just now looked up the word whippersnapper.
a diminutive, insignificant, or presumptuous person

My Grandfather called my brother that for years, never knowing what it meant..I thought it was a word of endearment....Now I'm upset with granddad. LOL..

I apologize, your just the opposite of that definition. I'm embarrassed.:blush:

[pdudgeon]

ok, i have the first selection saved on word perfect. when we get them all done i'll put them all up and we can vote on them.

this is the second WOF belief that we're working on:

2. Jesus died spiritually, separated from God, and was our substitute, and descended into hell because of our sins. (Isaiah 53:11, Psalm 16:10, 22:17-18, Matt. 12:38-40,Matthew 27:46, Acts 2:27, 31, Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 John 4:10


comments?

[pdudgeon]

Happy Birthday a bit early, Pete.:thumbsup:
(you're not a kid any more ;) )

[J4Jesus]

I'm so sorry probinson...I just now looked up the word whippersnapper.
a diminutive, insignificant, or presumptuous person

My Grandfather called my brother that for years, never knowing what it meant..I thought it was a word of endearment....Now I'm upset with granddad. LOL..

I apologize, your just the opposite of that definition. I'm embarrassed.:blush:
LOL I always thought it meant a kid who was a smartelic and thought he knew everything! ^_^

[Trish1947]

ok, i have the first selection saved on word perfect. when we get them all done i'll put them all up and we can vote on them.

this is the second WOF belief that we're working on:

2. Jesus died spiritually, separated from God, and was our substitute, and descended into hell because of our sins. (Isaiah 53:11, Psalm 16:10, 22:17-18, Matt. 12:38-40,Matthew 27:46, Acts 2:27, 31, Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 John 4:10


comments?
I have a question. Did Jesus die spiritually or did His soul suffer death? I'm going by this scripture:
Isa 53:10 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Isa&c=53&v=10&version=KJV#10)Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

[J4Jesus]

.
Psalm 22:17-18 was a wrong reference. All of Psalm 22 is a prophecy of his suffereing.
I changed it to 22:1 which shows He was separated from God when He said MY God why have You forsaken me.


2. Jesus died spiritually, separated from God, and was our substitute, and descended into hell because of our sins. (Isaiah 53:11, Psalm 16:10, 22:1, Matt. 12:38-40,Matthew 27:46, Acts 2:27, 31, Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 John 4:10

[J4Jesus]

Oh Trish , I'm going to sound like David! ;) :preach:
Just kidding David!^_^



Acts 2 says that Jesus was released from the pains of death, so He was suffering.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Johnah was in agony suffering in the whale , It was not good feeling for sure. So if that was a picture of what Jesus was going to go thru there was suffereing. Psalms 22 is a prophesy of the suffering of Chirst.


Hebrews 2:14-15 KJV
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death , that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Revelation 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood," means?


Separation from God is spiritual death.

He temporarily separated from the Father. You are spiritually dead if you are cut off from the God
Adam was spiritually dead separated after he sinned

Jesus tasted death for us, so we won't have to suffer either. whatever our wages were for sin He would have had to pay.

Hebrews 2:9 ....by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

(1 John 4:10)He was our propitiation, our substitute



This speaks of Jesus' spiritual death.

Matthew 27:46 (http://foru.ms/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=46&version=9&context=verse)
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (and Mark 15:34 (http://foru.ms/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=15&verse=34&version=9&context=verse))

[Trish1947]

Oh Trish , I'm going to sound like David! ;) :preach:
Just kidding David!^_^



Acts 2 says that Jesus was released from the pains of death, so He was suffering.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Johnah was in agony suffering in the whale ,It was not goofeeling good for sure. So if that was a picture of what Jesus was going to go thru there was suffereing. Psalms 22 is a prophesy of the suffering of Chirst.


Hebrews 2:14-15 KJV
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death , that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Revelation 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood," means?


Separation from God is spiritual death.

He temporarily separated from the Father. You are spiritually dead if you are cut off from the God
Adam was spiritually dead separated after he sinned

Jesus tasted death for us, so we won't have to suffer either. whatever our wages were for sin He would have had to pay.

Hebrews 2:9 ....by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

(1 John 4:10)He was our propitiation, our substitute



This speaks of Jesus' spiritual death.

Matthew 27:46 (http://foru.ms/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=46&version=9&context=verse)
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (and Mark 15:34 (http://foru.ms/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=15&verse=34&version=9&context=verse))
I know some part of Jesus suffered death other than the physical. I have no doubt about that, or that He went to hell. Thats a given. The Bible says that the soul that sins shall die. That was our punishment. Our spirits before the new birth were already dead. So wasn't it our souls that were condemned to die? But by Jesus soul being made the sin offering, and put to death, we now believe to the saving of the soul after the new birth? This is going to be a tuffie for me, I think..

[God_Owned]

What are we working on now?:confused:

[J4Jesus]

God_Owned we're working on this.
Comments?
(Besides when you said you liked it :D )

2. Jesus died spiritually, separated from God, and was our substitute, and descended into hell because of our sins. (Isaiah 53:11, Psalm 16:10, 22:1, Matt. 12:38-40,Matthew 27:46, Acts 2:27, 31, Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 John 4:10

Actually thats just my notes. ^_^ I'm sure everyone will have their versions

[DavidPresently]

God_Owned we're working on this.
Comments?
(Besides when you said you liked it :D )

2. Jesus died spiritually, separated from God, and was our substitute, and descended into hell because of our sins. (Isaiah 53:11, Psalm 16:10, 22:1, Matt. 12:38-40,Matthew 27:46, Acts 2:27, 31, Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 John 4:10

Actually thats just my notes. ^_^ I'm sure everyone will have their versions

This is another one we need to stick with Scripture, how such things are stated, and not go running off with our imaginations of what we think it worked out like. Humility will allow us to just admit there are many things we just don't know or fully understand right now. When in doubt, just quote or goodly paraphrase the Scripture accounts.

The above statement is not stated in Scripture and is a stretch - speculative. We do know Jesus the Christ died for us. Exactly how all that worked in the belly of the earth for three days we aren't told. And none of us were there as witnesses. If Scripture doesn't tell us - it means we don't need to know - which means we don't need to have dogmatic doctrinal statements about it.

IMO :D

I'm missing why we need a statement about this at all - considering we already have a fall and redemption of man statement.

[J4Jesus]

Jesus died spiritually on the cross, separated from God, when he took our sins upon Himself. He was sinless, but being our substitute, He descended into hell, fulling paying for our sins.(Isaiah 53:11, Psalm 16:10, 22:1, Matt. 12:38-40,Matthew 27:46, Acts 2:27, 31, Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 John 4:10

[J4Jesus]

This is another one we need to stick with Scripture, how such things are stated, and not go running off with our imaginations of what we think it worked out like. Humility will allow us to just admit there are many things we just don't know or fully understand right now. When in doubt, just quote or goodly paraphrase the Scripture accounts.

The above statement is not stated in Scripture and is a stretch - speculative. We do know Jesus the Christ died for us. Exactly how all that worked in the belly of the earth for three days we aren't told. And none of us were there as witnesses. If Scripture doesn't tell us - it means we don't need to know - which means we don't need to have dogmatic doctrinal statements about it.

IMO :D

I'm missing why we need a statement about this at all - considering we already have a fall and redemption of man statement.

OH there's David - He's going to get me now :help: :D

If you read the post after yours you will see I havent written out the verses yet but I could. Not that many tho. It really late tonight.
I may do part of it. You don't like the short statement then.

[J4Jesus]

David
It's important because alot of people say this didn't happen. They debate us on this and the other points constantly so we need it on our beliefs. And if He didn't do this for us then we would have to pay for our own sins. I gave scripture for what I stated (KJV)

I guess if you don't believe it you could vote no ^_^ http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t247/1SMJ/bolt.gif

[God_Owned]

http://ads.admonitor.net/adengine.cgi?F1936|1017|1|image2|C14389||| (http://ads.admonitor.net/clicktrack.cgi?F1936|1017|1|image2|C14389|||)
Letter From Kenneth Copeland Ministries
October 29, 1996

JESUS IN HELL by Kenneth Copeland

Acts 2:27, "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."
(New Berkeley)...Thou wilt not abandon my soul to the realm of the dead.
(Weymouth) For thou wilt not leave me in the unseen world forsaken...
(Amplified) For you will not abandon My soul, leaving it helpless in Hades (the state of departed spirits)... (Rotherham) Thou wilt not abandon my soul unto hades... (Translator's NT)...you will not abandon my soul to Hades...
The key to the significance of this verse in our study is found in the work "leave." W.E. Vine, "leave:" Greek ENKATALEIPO --to forsake, abandon, leave in straits, or helpless, said by or of, Christ, as in Matthew 27:46, 2 Timothy 4:10,16 and Hebrews 13:5. Those in paradise or Abraham's bosom were comforted, not abandoned or forsaken (Luke 16:22-26). Jesus was in the ungodly side.
Matthew 12:40, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
(Good News) In the same way that Jonah spent three days and three nights in the belly of the whale...
Since Jesus' stay in the hea:rt of ihe earth (not the grave) was like Jonah's stay in the belly of the whale, what was Johah's experience like? This would tell us something of what Jesus' experience was like.
Jonah 2:1-6, "Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly. And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about; all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple. The waters compassed me about, even to the soul; the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God."
Notice the terms "affliction," "the deep," "floods," "billows, "waves," "cast out," "the depth," "weeds," "corruption" (margin: the pit). Jonah did not have a restful, paradisetype experience to say the least.
(GNB) From deep in the world of the dead I cried for help and you heard me. I thought I had been banished from your presence and would never see your holy temple again. I went down to the very roots of the mountains into the land whose gates lock shut forever. But you, O Lord my God, brought me back from the depth alive.
(Basic English)...out of the deepest underworld I sent up a cry, and you gave ear to my voice....you have taken up my life from the underworld, 0 Lord my God.
(Masoretic OT) Out of the belly of the netherworld cried I...Yet hast Thou brought up my life from the pit... (Rotherham)...Then didst thou bring up--out of the pit my life. . .
(New American)...From the midst of the nether world I cried for help...the abyss enveloped me...the bars of the nether world were closing behind me forever, but you my life up from the pit...
(Berkeley)...From the innermost part* of Sheol I cried for help...*or "womb."
Psalm 88:4-8,11-12,16, "I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength: Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps. Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with all thy waves. Selah. Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: I am shut up; and I cannot come forth
''Shall thy lovingnindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
"Thy fierce wrath goeth over me; thy terrors have cut me off." (Knox)...a man past all help, there among the lordless dead... I lie in a prison whence there is no escape.
(Basic English) My soul is among the dead, like those in the underworld, to whom you give no more thought; for they are cut off from your care.
(Jerusalem) You have plunged me to the bottom of the Pit, to its darkest, deepest place, weighted down by your anger, drowned beneath your waves.
(Moffat) In the nethermost pit thou hast placed me, in abysses dark and deep; thy wrath lies heavy upon me, thyvaves all overwhelm me...I cannot escape from my prison...thy faithfulness in the world below.
(New American) You have plunged me into bottom of the pit, into the dark abyss.
(New English) Thy burning fury has swept over me, thy onslaughts have put me to silence.
Romans 10:6-7, "But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)"
The Greek word for "the deep" is ABUSSOS. W.E. Vine's definition for "abussos" is found under "bottom, bottomless" and reads: "bottomless...is used as a noun denoting the abyss (A.V. 'bottomless pit'). It describes an immeasurable depth, the underworld, the lower regions, the abyss of Sheol...the reference is to the lower regions as the abode of demons, out of which they can be let loose, Revelation 11:7,17:8. It is found seven times in the Apocalypse, 9:1-2,11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1,3;..." See also Luke 8:31.
Colossians 2:15, "And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it." This is what happened in the abyss, the abode of demons. "In it" is the Greek EN AUTO--"in Him," not "in it". Thus verse 14 is parenthetical, and verse 15 goes with verse 13 which says we were made alive together. In other words, verse l5th took place after He was quickened, not at the Cross.
(Knox)...the dominions and powers he (God) robbed of their prey, put them to an open shame, led them away in triumph, through him.
(Alford)...stripping off from himself the principalities and the powers, he (God) made a show cf them openly, triumphing over them in him.
(Conybeare) And he (God) disarmed the Principalities and the Powers (which fought against Him), and put them to open shame, leading them captive in the triumph of Christ. (Phillips) And then, having drawn the sting of all the powers ranged against us, he exposed them, shattered, empty and defeated, in his final glorious triumphant act! (Weymouth) And the hostile princes and rulers He shook off from Himself, and boldly displayed them as His conquest... (Barclay). .he stripped the demonic powers and authorities of their power, and made a public spectacle of them, as if they had been captives in a victor's triumphal procession. (Wand)...he stripped away like a cast-off garment every demonic Rule and Authority and made a public exhibition of them...
(Noli) He despoiled the infernal dominions and realms. He dragged their rulers as captives in procession...
The word for "spoiled" is ENEKDUO from EKDUO. Under "strip", W.E. Vine's definition for EKDUO is "to take off, strip off, is used especially of clothes."
Romans 5:6, "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."
Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
If He died for, that is, on the behalf of or in the stead of the ungodly (not just the righteous dead in Abraham's bosom), then He suffered the consequences of death for the ungodly. He went where they would have gone.
The most common objection to all of this is taken from Luke 23:43, "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
The Greek word for today is SEMERON. Bullinger's Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament says: Semeron when it comes after a verb, belongs to that verb, unless it is separated from it and thrown into the next clause by the presence of OTI (that), e,g..
Luke 19:9, "(oti) this day is salvation come."
Luke 4:21, "(oti) this day is the Scripture fulfilled." Mark 14:30, "(oti) this day before the cock crow you will deny me."
Without OTI:
Matthew 21:28 "go today." . Luke 22:34
Luke 23:43, "Verily to thee I say this day, with Me shalt thou me in Paradise . " The words "today" being made solemn and and emphatic).
(Tomanek) Indeed today I say to you, you shall be with Me in paradise.
(Lamsa) Truly I say to you today, You will be with me in Paradise.
This is in harmony with countless Old Testament passages: Deuteronomy 6:6; 7:11; 8:1; 10:13; 11:8,13,28; 13:18; 19:9;
27:4; 41:2, etc., where the Septuagint corresponds to Luke 23:43. Other references: Matthew 6:30; 16:3; 21:28; Luke 5:26; 12:28; 13:32-33; 19:5; 23:43; 24:21; Hebrews 3:7,13,15; 4:7; 5:5; 8:8: James 4:13.
Notice That the thief's request was, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." Jesus seemed to be saying, "I'll do more than remember you at some future time; I give you My word this very day that you will be with Me in My kingdom."


http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com/copeland_response.htm (http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com/copeland_response.htm)

[J4Jesus]

I don't think we can use that version God_Owned ^_^
What we need to write is to use the scripture to write out that statement. See what I mean? My thinking cap does not work too good this late at night.

[J4Jesus]

Well what do you know! Someone that agrees with me :D

".....Brother Copeland has made it a policy not to respond to or debate with anyone about their disagreements with him over the Word of God (Titus 3:9; 2 Tim 2:23-26). He believes in most cases no one changes their beliefs and a even greater division is created in the Body of Christ....."

[Trish1947]

Maybe we should leave this to each persons understanding. I didn't have to know every detail of all that went on in hell to receive salvation. Personally I think everything that was slated for me to suffer was satisfied by Jesus. All I know for fact, is what the scripture says, "He shall see the travail of His soul and be satisfied" and was raised from the dead..That's good enough for me. God being satisfied makes me shout.

[J4Jesus]

Maybe we should leave this to each persons understanding. I didn't have to know every detail of all that went on in hell to receive salvation. Personally I think everything that was slated for me to suffer was satisfied by Jesus. All I know for fact, is what the scripture says, "He shall see the travail of His soul and be satisfied" and was raised from the dead..That's good enough for me. God being satisfied makes me shout.

This is teachings that are different from other churches just like Methodist and Baptist , Luthern, etc. They always want to know the difference. And there are some since they debate us constantly on them. If we didnt say anything it would not really be telling our beliefs and we might as well join the penetcostal or charismatic group and have their icon. The others were basics we worked on, this is specifics right now.. There are differences.

[Trish1947]

This is teachings that are different from other churches just like Methodist and Baptist , Luthern, etc. They always want to know the difference. And there are some since they debate us constantly on them. If we didnt say anything it would not really be telling our beliefs and we might as well join the penetcostal or charismatic group and have their icon. The others were basics we worked on, this is specifics right now.. There are differences.
I see your point too. But unless it can be proved by what we read in scripture as the Spirit of Jesus, or the soul of Jesus that tasted death for every man, the only thing that's stated exactly what suffered was His soul. The only reason I personally believe it was His soul is because it's already stated as such in scripture. At the cross Jesus committed His Spirit to God. Because it was God. I don't personally believe that part of Jesus that was born of the Holy Ghost unto women could suffer. It's that part of Him that couldn't sin and gave Him power over committing sin of the soul. His soul was perfect without sin and was made to be the sin offering. But that again is another case of debate.
If we feel it has to be stated that He died spiritually, and not soulical, then I will go ahead and pass on this vote, there's probably enough voting here to get that statement.

[LeadWorship]

So then let's do a pre-vote vote.

1. Omit this from the SoF.
2. Find a way to put it in.

I say omit it. I too feel that this is speculative and bears no weight on salvation, nor spiritual growth.

[J4Jesus]

Pete do you and Pdudgeon believe this? Is God_Owned and me the only ones that beleive this? :eek: I thought most here did and I know everyone in WOF churches I go to do and our teachers and preachers :scratch: Its sure not going to help with all the debate hassles.

Well I could try on that new charismatic icon ;) Its really neat :D

[Trish1947]

Pete do you and Pdudgeon believe this? Is God_Owned and me the only ones that beleive this? :eek: I thought most here did and I know everyone in WOF churches I go to do and our teachers and preachers :scratch: Its sure not going to help with all the debate hassles.

Well I could try on that now charismatic icon ;) Its really neat :D
I didn't mean to confuse anyone. There was an eternal price paid by Jesus. When we say that Jesus died spiritually, is it really any less eternal to say he died soulically as the scripture states? They both are meant to be eternal. Without the new birth, our spirit can't be made alive in Christ, and to believe to the saving of the soul also, a price had to be paid to redeem the eternal soul. Jesus was already born the second Adam. So no penalty of his Spirit was needed to be paid for.

In a way, I'm sorry I brought this up. But I do know quite a few WOF that understand that both are eternal. And either death wheather spiritual or of the soul, would have cost an eternal price.

[God_Owned]

I don't think we can use that version God_Owned ^_^
What we need to write is to use the scripture to write out that statement. See what I mean? My thinking cap does not work too good this late at night.

I am prertty sure I already understood that. It was offered to answer some ourstandng questions on this thread. You have to get the facts straight before you can be effective in your writing effort.:wave:

[pdudgeon]

i think there is one way to answer this and that would be to look at what happens to man when he dies.

we know that the physical body goes to the grave and that it is resurrected and transformed into a heavenly body at the return of Jesus. so then what happened to man's spirit and his soul at death before Jesus came? answer that and you have the answer to what happened to Jesus.

As far as i know, all three parts of Jesus (body, soul, and spirit) went down to Sheol. Paradise at that time was a part of Sheol (sort of a 'waiting room" to get into heaven which is what the Jews still believe today) And since at that time satan held the keys to death and the grave, that's where Jesus went, down to Sheol and Paradise where He preached to those who were there and won the keys from satan. So the statement that Jesus made on the cross that the thief would be with him was true.

But when Jesus left He held the keys, not satan. And as such, he changed things forever, so our spirit and soul do not go down to sheol, but His did.

[God_Owned]

So then let's do a pre-vote vote.

1. Omit this from the SoF.
2. Find a way to put it in.

I say omit it. I too feel that this is speculative and bears no weight on salvation, nor spiritual growth.

The weight it bears on salvation is that If Jesus didn't suffer spiritual, then we would have had to remain spiritually dead. In other words, we could never have been born again, forever cut off from the Spirit of God.

Jesus was cut off from the Spirit of God, just like Adam was when Adam sinned.

Adam was cut off because he sinned resulting in the spiritual death of all mankind. Jesus did not sin, but was made sin and was Spiritually cut off from God. With the debt of sin paid for all of mankind, Jesus became the first born again man in hell when God's Spirit again filled Him. He whipped the devil, took the keys of hell and death from the devil, went to the Bosom of Abraham to preached to all of the souls there in. He ascended into Heaven, sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat and was seated at the right hand of the Father.

As Jesus entered into our death, which Adam bequeathed to us by his transgression, we conversely enter into Jesus life when we confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus because we believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead, in other words we become saved, that is to say born-again.

Our salvation is was contingent on fact that Jesus suffered spiritual death (bled out), this included his physical body, his spiritual body, which included His soul. ...by the way the soul is a spiritual entity because it is invisible and if invisible, then it is spiritual. It is part of our spiritual body, just like our brain is part of our physical body.

It is important because of sell the suffering Jesus went through, begin cut off from the Spirit of God we the west and should not be treated lightly.

There is scripture to support all this.:wave:

[probinson]

I think the crux of what happened in the JDS doctrine, at least from what I've read online, is that Jesus took our place.

Having grown up in a Word of Faith church my entire life, I never heard the phrase "Jesus died Spiritually" until I came onto this forum. But I have heard many times people say that Jesus took our place.

I certainly am no theologian, but I feel much more comfortable stating that Jesus took our place, in some fashion.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h128/petesarah/Smilies/2cents.gif

[God_Owned]

ok, add me in for #3.:wave:

So do we move on now? :wave:

[pdudgeon]

But when Jesus left He held the keys, not satan. And as such, he changed things forever, so our spirit and soul do not go down to sheol, but His did.


pasting this last portion of my oft-edited reply.:blush:

and that is why we hear that He paid the price for us, body, soul, and spirt.

[pdudgeon]

now this may not be a widely held WOF belief, but i think that would be because it is not widely taught, and not because it is not true.:wave:

[pdudgeon]

and since we are supposed to be including doctrins that are widely taught, we probably should move on. but this has been a very good discussion, and an opportunity for learning!:thumbsup:

[God_Owned]

I am more comfortable withthe truth of the Word.

Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Romans 6:4-6

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as
Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we
shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no
more dominion over him.

Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no
more dominion over him.

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Every major WOF teacher teacher JDS.
__________________

Originally posted by Rev. Finis J. Dake
Complete Sacrifice

Himself— His entire self, not His personal soul only. It took His body, soul, and spirit to make a complete offering for sin and sickness. He was a complete substitute for man. Since the body, soul, and spirit of man had sinned and were under the sentence of death, it took the whole being of the Messiah to take man's place. The word soul is sometimes used of an individual (Genesis 12:5; Genesis 41:26). There is no such thing as sinning with the flesh and not with the soul and spirit, as taught by some. The flesh cannot be filthy and the soul and spirit be holy. The body became sinful, depraved, and diseased by sin in the fall, and the body must be redeemed from these things if redemption is to be complete.

__________________

Dake's notes on Isaiah 53:10

Originally posted by Rev. Finis J. Dake Complete Sacrifice

Himself- His entire self, not His personal soul only. It took His body, soul, and spirit to make a complete offering for sin and sickness. He was a complete substitute for man. Since the body, soul, and spirit of man had sinned and were under the sentence of death, it took the whole being of the Messiah to take man's place. The word soul is sometimes used of an individual (Genesis 12:5; Genesis 41:26). There is no such thing as sinning with the flesh and not with the soul and spirit, as taught by some. The flesh cannot be filthy and the soul and spirit be holy. The body became
sinful, depraved, and diseased by sin in the fall, and the body must be redeemed from these things if redemption is to be complete.

_________

He died physically to give us spiritual life is a contradictory statement. Mankind's basic need was a spiritual salvation, therefore it required a spiritual sacrifice.
________________________________________

If we limit the author to saying that Jesus offered Himself in the Spirit's power, we miss a bigger truth. The writer is contrasting the fleshly offerings of the Jewish priests with the spiritual offering of Jesus. The animal sacrifices were physical and outward, His was spiritual and unseen. The shedding of Jesus' blood made possible His transition from the physical world into the spiritual sanctuary. But His physical blood DID NOT atone for our sins. Sin is a spiritual matter. The wages of sin is eternal separation from God. When God laid 'on Him the iniquity of us all,' was it on Jesus' body or His soul? Sin cannot be laid on a body because sin is spiritual and the body physical. It was the sinless SOUL of Christ that was the real sacrifice at Calvary, NOT his body. He offered HIMSELF to God. He was IN a body at the time, but it was Jesus Himself Who bore our sins in that body. This is why the offering is so priceless." [Emphasis is his.]

___________________________________-

Billy Graham in his presentation of the sacrifice of the Lord in Peace with God declares: "But the physical suffering of Jesus Christ was not the real suffering. Many men before Him had died. Many men had become martyrs. The awful suffering of Jesus Christ was His spiritual death. He reached the final issue of sin, fathomed the deepest sorrow, when God turned His back and hid His face so that He cried, 'My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?'
__________________________________-
PHILLIPS You were spiritually dead through your sins and failures,
A.S. WAY ...for dead you were, slain by your trespasses and sins,
As we can see in both these scriptures, death is the consequence of our sin. It is also clear that the death these passages are talking about is spiritual and not physical. In Romans 6:23, death is contrasted with eternal life which is spiritual, therefore "death" has to be spiritual also. In Ephesians 2:1 we see that though we were alive physically we were dead spiritually, slain by our sin.
Sin produced spiritual death in the first man that sinned. God gave Adam the warning "...in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" [Gen. 2:17]. But we see according to Genesis 5:5 that Adam lived physically 930 years after the fall. Therefore, the death Adam died that day was spiritual.
At the risk of being repetitive let me quote C.I. Scofield's definition of sin again:
"Sin may be summarized as threefold: An act, the violation of, or want of obedience to the revealed will of God; a state, absence of righteousness; a nature, enmity toward God." {6} (http://www.kcc.net/greg/3days.htm#6. C.I. Scofield)
Notice that sin is more than an act, it is also a state and a nature. The spiritual nature of sin is death. There is no way around it. If Jesus was made all that is implied by the word sin, then Jesus received spiritual death. His spiritual nature underwent a change. At the point on the cross when God poured into Christ all of the world's hideous sinfulness, Christ passed from spiritual Life into spiritual Death. Isaiah describes this horrifying event:
___________________________________

4. Direct Scriptural Evidence
Here is the acid test of any Biblical Doctrine. We may be able to reason it through, even elude to it time and time again. But if there is no direct scriptural evidence then we should never expect others to whole-heartedly accept it. This is not the case concerning this truth, though some have said that there is no direct scriptural evidence. I believe that they haven't looked close enough. In fact there are a number of clear passages that indicate Jesus died spiritually.
ISAIAH 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
According to The Englishman's Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance compiled by G.V. Wigram, the Hebrew word used here for "death" is actually plural, and he gives an alternative rendering of "deaths." This would indicate that Jesus (the subject of Isaiah 53) died two deaths. The context itself also reveals the two-fold principle. We see a description of the two types of individuals that Christ was buried with: the wicked and the rich. The Gospels tell us clearly with whom He was buried. Luke 23:50-53 tell us that Jesus was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathaea. It also tells us that he was a good man and a just man. In Matthew 27:57 we see that Joseph was a rich man. In Mark, he is said to be an honourable counselor. In all the passages it is pointed out that this was a new tomb in which no man had ever been laid. Therefore we see that Joseph fulfills the burial of Jesus with the rich. There is absolutely no grounds here that Joseph was a wicked man. On the contrary, everything indicates the opposite about Joseph of Arimathaea.
It is also significant that Jesus was laid in a tomb were no man was ever laid, indicating that the physical burial could not in any way be with the wicked. How then was Christ buried with the wicked? The passage in Isaiah gave us the answer in the plural word for death; Jesus died a two-fold death. He died physically and was buried in Joseph's tomb among the rich, but also He died spiritually and was buried with the wicked in hell. E.W. Kenyon speaks of the plural deaths:
"This word 'Death' is in the plural in the original. It is a very remarkable fact that this is the only time that the word "deaths" is used in the entire Old Testament Scriptures, except when it speaks of Satan's being cast out of Heaven, that he "died the deaths" [Ez.28:10]. It is used here, because the Prophet saw that our sin Substitute when He went on the Cross died spiritually as well as physically; so it says 'in His deaths.' " {9} (http://www.kcc.net/greg/3days.htm#9. E.W. Kenyon)
C.S. Lovett in his commentary of Hebrews 2:9, "Jesus would taste death on behalf of every man," expounds on the two deaths:
"He did experience death, and more. He died TWICE! That is, He died physically and spiritually. While Jesus was on the cross He suffered SPIRITUAL death, the true wages of sin (Rom. 6:23). Yes, He died physically, as the result of His obedience. But it was spiritual death that He tasted for every man. His physical death was not substitutionary, for we all die physically. Every man goes through physical death for himself. However "taste" is an accurate word. Jesus experienced spiritual death for only a short time. He didn't remain spiritually dead. While we don't understand HOW He did it, we do know WHEN. His words from the cross tell us. At noon on the day of crucifixion, the sky became darkened. Then at 3 p.m., He gave that awful cry... 'My God! My God! Why hast Thou forsaken Me!' (Matt. 27:46). In that moment our sins were laid on Him and "He became sin for us..." (2 Cor. 5:21). Since sin separates men from God, the MAN Christ Jesus suffered spiritual death that instant." [All emphasis is his.] {10} (http://www.kcc.net/greg/3days.htm#10. C.S. Lovett)
We will see this "two-fold principle" occur in all the aspects of the Death, Burial and Resurrection because of the physical and spiritual aspect in each phase of the redemptive work.
In our next scripture we find that a proper understanding to this verse demands more than a superficial look. Let us look carefully at the statement made in the very first Christian message:
ACTS 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
NEW ENGLISH ...setting him free from the pangs of death, because it could not be that death should keep him in its grip.
BARCLAY But God loosed the pangs of death, and brought him back to life again, for it was impossible that he should remain under death's control.
GOODSPEED But God set aside the pain of death and raised him up...
AMPLIFIED ...seeing that it was not possible for Him to continue to be controlled or retained by it.
We see three significant statements in this verse. First, the topic and context of the entire verse is the resurrection. And everything that is said after it in this verse should be regarded as part of the resurrection. This will become more important as we go on and look at the other statements.
Secondly, we must look at the statement "loosed the pains of death." The word "pains" has an interesting definition:
VINES EXPOSITORY DICTIONARY: "ODIN-- a birth pang, travail-pain, is rendered "travail," metaphorically, in Matt. 24:8 and Mark 13:8, R.V. (A.V. "sorrows"); by way of comparison, in I Thess. 5:3; translated 'pains' (of death) Acts 2:24 (R.V. "pangs")." {11} (http://www.kcc.net/greg/3days.htm#11. W.E. Vine)
ELLICOTT'S COMMENTARY "The word for 'pains' is the same for 'sorrows' in Matt. 24:8, literally, travail-pains. The phrase was not uncommon in the LXX (Septuagint) version, but was apparently a mistranslation of the Hebrew for 'cords,' or 'bands,' of death. If we take the Greek word in its full meaning, the Resurrection is thought of as a new birth as from the womb of the grave." {12} (http://www.kcc.net/greg/3days.htm#12. Charles John Ellicott)
Other scholars lean toward the rendering "pains" rather than "birth-pangs" although the latter seems to be more substantiated by the classical Greek and Biblical usage. Nevertheless both renderings still bring out one very important fact. The "pains" being discussed here had to be referring to the pains of spiritual death. We understood that the context of this verse was the resurrection and it was God raising Him from the dead that loosed Him from those pains. It is impossible that this statement is referring to the pains of physical death, for Jesus, like every other person that has died before Him and after Him, was loosed from the pains of physical death the moment He died and left His body! Rigormortis does not inflict pain after death.
Finally, we see the statement "it was not possible that he should be holden of it." The description Peter gives us here of the nature of Jesus' death indicates that "birth-pangs" can be an acceptable rendering. For the travail of a woman means that it is impossible to contain the child any longer. Bishop Ellicott is helpful here:
"Because it was not possible... -- The moral impossibility was, we may say, two-fold. The work of the Son of Man could not have ended in a failure and death which would have given the lie to all that He had asserted of Himself. Its issue could not run counter to the prophecies which had implied with more or less clearness a victory over death." {13} (http://www.kcc.net/greg/3days.htm#12. Charles John Ellicott)
The last statement in our verse also indicates one more important fact. The Amplified Version said "...it was not possible for Him to continue to be controlled or retained by it." This obviously means there was a point in time that Jesus was controlled and retained by death. Since we saw that death in this passage is referring to spiritual death rather than physical, we have to conclude that in the 3 days and nights Jesus was under spiritual death's control. We will find this same reasoning applicable in our next scripture.
ROMANS 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
PHILLIPS We can be sure that the risen Christ never dies again -- death's power to master him is finished.
A.S. WAY ...death can never more claim lordship over Him.
SIMPLE ENGLISH ...death does not rule over him anymore!
The point here is, death cannot rule over Christ any longer but there was a time when death did rule over Him. Alford's commentary explains:
"...death hath dominion over him no more, as implying that Death had dominion over Christ, which we know it had not: see John 10:17,18; 2:19; Acts 2:24. But this vanishes, when we remember that our Lord, by submitting to Death, virtually, and in the act of death, surrendered Himself into the power of Death. Death could not hold Him, and had no power over Him further than by his own sufferance: but power over Him it had, inasmuch as He died." {14} (http://www.kcc.net/greg/3days.htm#14. Henry Alford)
It is clear that this passage speaks of a definite period of subjection to death. The key here to determining what type of death is implied is in the word translated "dominion" [KJV]. The word is used in other passages referring to the exercising of Lordship [Lk.22:25; Rom.14:9; I Tim.6:15]. Then it is also used of powers that rule over the human life: the Law [Rom.7:1], Sin [Rom.6:14] and in Romans 6:9, death. Kittel's Theological Dictionary has this to add:
"Behind the use of 'kuriuo' [Gr. for dominion] in all these different connections is a human and secular understanding which does not view man as a free lord over himself but as subject to some lordship, whether to salvation or perdition." {15} (http://www.kcc.net/greg/3days.htm#15. Theological Dictionary)
Is it correct to think of physical death as a force that exercises lordship over us? It seems that a clearer way to think of death as a master or a ruler would be in the spiritual sense. Hebrews 2:14 speaks of Christ entering into death that He might "abolish him who has the dominion of death, that is the Devil" [Fenton]; or as C.S. Lovett translates: "that He could cancel the power of the devil, who rules the realm of death." W.E. Vine points out that this word "kuriuo" is akin to "kuriotees" [Gr. for dominions] which is used of angelic authorities [Eph.1:21; Col.1:16; Jude 8]. This also includes the fallen angels, i.e., the devil.
One cannot be dogmatic concerning this particular verse in saying that it is a direct reference to Christ's spiritual death. Nevertheless the context and language seems to indicate a deeper meaning than only physical death having dominion over our Lord.
ROMANS 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
BARCLAY for we are well aware that the person we were in our pre-Christian days has been crucified with him...
WUEST ...that our old [unregenerate] self was crucified once for all with Him ...
Here we see the principle of identification. Jesus identified so totally with us on the cross that in the mind of God we were the ones being crucified. Passage after passage speaks of this principle: of our union with our Lord to the point that He became us. We repeat the precious words of Luther:
"By the wedding ring of faith he shares in the sins, death, and pains of hell which are his bride's. As a matter of fact, he makes them his own and acts as if they were his own and as if he himself had sinned; he suffered, died, and descended into hell that he might overcome them all." {16} (http://www.kcc.net/greg/3days.htm#16. Martin Luther)
God was not dealing with Christ on the cross, He was dealing with us. It was our sins, our evil nature, our old man. But for Christ to receive our guilt and punishment to the full, He had to become what we were. This is why the Apostle speaks of our old man being crucified with Christ. Jesus became what we were so that God could deal with Him as if He were us. We weren't personally present there on the cross for we had no existence. God was dealing with Christ as the Representative of everything we were in our unregenerate life!
If we were to sum up, in one statement, our unregenerate man, the man we were before we became Christians, we would have to say we were spiritually dead. If Christ's crucifixion was representing the death of our old man, then Jesus died spiritually in order to represent what we were in our old man.
All of the "identification" scriptures ("with Christ") indicate the spiritual aspects of the Lord's work. This is because they refer to our spiritual experience. We were "buried with Christ," i.e., our old spiritual nature was buried with Christ [Rom.6:4]; we were "made alive with Christ," i.e., our spirit received life with Christ [Col. 2:13]; we were "raised with Christ," i.e., we have been exalted in spirit to a position of sonship with Christ [Eph. 2:6]. We will examine these verses later on.

___________________________

More to come

[God_Owned]

If Jesus' life is in the His blood and the spirit is life, then how could he have shed his blood and not be dead spiritually? Jesus said you atain eternal life by drinking His blood. I expect because for your spirit man to live with God it must be filled with the blood of Jesus, which contains His spirit.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


Genesis 9:4 KJV But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Leviticus 17:11 KJV For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.


Leviticus 17:14 KJV For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

Deuteronomy 12:23 KJV Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.

John 6:54 KJV Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

[God_Owned]

Commentary, Jamieson, Fausset, Brown, Isaiah Chapter 53:9 Rather, "His grave was appointed," or "they appointed Him His grave" [HENGSTENBERG]; that is, they intended (by crucifying Him with two thieves, Matthew 27:38 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=mt+27:38)) that He should have His grave "with the wicked." Compare John 19:31 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=joh+19:31), the denial of honorable burial being accounted a great ignominy Jeremiah 26:23 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=jer+26:23)).
and with . . . rich--rather, "but He was with a rich man," &c. GESENIUS, for the parallelism to "the wicked," translates "ungodly" (the effect of riches being to make one ungodly); but the Hebrew everywhere means "rich," never by itself ungodly; the parallelism, too, is one of contrast; namely, between their design and the fact, as it was ordered by God (Matthew 27:57' 15:43-46'John 19:39,40' (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=mt+27:57'Mark+15:43-46'Joh+19:39,40)); two rich men honored Him at His death, Joseph of Arimathæa, and Nicodemus.
in his death--Hebrew, "deaths." LOWTH translates, "His tomb"; bamoth, from a different root, meaning "high places," and so mounds for sepulture (Ezekiel 43:7 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=eze+43:7)). But all the versions oppose this, and the Hebrew hardly admits it. Rather translate, "after His death" [HENGSTENBERG]; as we say, "at His death." The plural, "deaths," intensifies the force; as Adam by sin "dying died" (Genesis 2:17 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ge+2:17), Margin); that is, incurred death, physical and spiritual. So Messiah, His substitute, endured death in both senses; spiritual, during His temporary abandonment by the Father; physical, when He gave up the ghost.
because--rather, as the sense demands (so in Job 16:17 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=job+16:17)), "although He had done no," &c. [HENGSTENBERG], (1 Peter 2:20-22 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1pe+2:20-22), 1 John 3:5 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1jo+3:5)).
violence--that is, wrong.

[God_Owned]

Did Jesus Suffer in Hell?
Today’s Question: I have a question about Jesus' descent into hell. In Luke 23:43, "And Jesus replied,’ Today you will be with me in Paradise. This is a solemn promise." TLB
The question I am wondering about is how could He have defeated Satan in hell if He declared to the thief that they both would be in Paradise that day? I believe Jesus made an open display of Satan on the Cross, according to Col.1:14: "Who bought our freedom with His Blood and forgave us all our sins."
Could you also explain to me how the Word of Faith teaching responds to Luke23:43? I'll be waiting for your reply.
Sincerely, William Carpenter
Bible Answer: I do not dare speak for the entire Word of Faith movement, but I would like to share some of my insights in this area.
As far as the passage in Luke 23:43 Jesus did go to Paradise that day. I agree. Jesus, however, did not say that He would be there for all three days. That's where you make a wrong assumption. Jesus said, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise." Today does not mean three days; it simply means the current day.
Before we proceed any further, we need to establish the fact that man is a three-fold being. God made man’s body from the dust of the ground then breathed into him the breath of life which is man’s spirit, and man became a living soul (Gen 2:7). He is a spirit, he has a soul, and he lives in a body. "May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1Thes 5:23). This truth is important to understand if you are to comprehend Christ descent into hell and His victory over the devil in hell.
Next, you need to realize that Adam’s sin resulted in not just physical death but spiritual death. God warned Adam and Eve, "The tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen 2:17, KJV). God said they would die in the day that thou eatest. Adam and Eve did not die physically that day, but they did die spiritual on that day. For Christ to eradicate Adam’s transgression He would have to experience the full judgement of sin, not just physical death.
The Bible teaches there is more than one type of death. As Paul said, "You were dead in your transgressions and sins" (Ep 2:1). This speaks of spiritual death. Then there is the passage in Rev 20:14: "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." The soul suffers eternally in the lake of fire. Obviously from these passages there is more than one death. There are three deaths, and they all correspond to our three-fold nature: physical, spiritual, and soulish.
The message of the gospel is simple: Christ died for our sins. Does this mean only physical death? Well, if that’s all sin does is kill us physically, then all Christ would have to do is die physically, but as we have already established, there are three deaths of the sinner. So if Christ is to die for the sinner, then He must die in all three ways.
Isaiah the prophet confirms Christ’ three deaths:
He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. (Isa 53:9)
The Hebrew word used for death1 is plural. Literally it reads, "He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich is his deaths." Scholars still don’t understand why it is in the plural, so they usually translate it in the singular.
Isaiah chapter 53 speaks of Christ’ three-fold death. Isaiah mentions Christ’ afflictions and wounds—that’s physical (vs. 4-5). He also alludes to His spiritual death by saying that the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all (v. 6). Finally Isaiah expresses Christ suffering in hell by declaring:
…when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied…he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa 53:10-11, KJV)
Notice how often Christ' soul is mentioned. Jesus did not suffer in body only; His soul suffered as well. The soul suffers in hell.
Peter, in his first sermon, mentions the suffering of Christ’ soul in hell:
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:27, KJV)
Jesus’ soul was in hell, but not left there. Praise God. Why did Jesus go to hell for us? He went there because the punishment of sin is for the soul to be cast into hell. Since Christ suffered the penalties and punishment for our sins, it stands to reason that He would have to suffer in hell, and He did!
I asked the Lord to give me a clear passage about this and He did. He gave me Leviticus chapter 16. You need to read all of it. There you find the sacrificial order on the Day of Atonement. What is important to notice is that there are three sacrifices on this day: two male goats and one ram for a burnt offering.
From the Israelite community he is to take two male goats for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. (Lev 16:5)
Now why are three sacrifices necessary? Simply because the three sacrifices speak of the three-fold death of Christ—his physical death, his spiritual death, and his soulish death.
Study the three sacrifices in Leviticus chapter 16. In this passage, only the first goat was killed through the shedding of blood; this speaks of Christ physical death and His shedding of His blood on the cross.
The Second goat had the sins of the nation confessed onto it and then banished alive in the desert; this speaks of Christ spiritual death whereby he became sin for us. This is why Christ said, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me" (Matt 27:46). Jesus was made sin there on the cross (2 Cor 5:21).
And now here is where it gets real interesting. After the sacrifices of these two goats, there is a time lapse. The Priest takes off his filthy garments and puts on clean garments (Lev 16:23-24). He washes himself and makes sure he is clean; this interim period is where I believe Jesus descent into Paradise takes place. Jesus is free from sin and He proves it by saying, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" (Luke 23:46). Jesus is restored to God the Father and is cleansed much like the Priest was. So Jesus is free from sin when He meets the thief in Paradise.
Now comes the final sacrifice that the priest makes, which is the ram and burnt offering. This is the only sacrifice that is burnt in the fire; I believe this speaks of Christ sacrifice in hell fire.
After Jesus meets the thief that day, the sun goes down over Jerusalem and the Passover officially begins. The first Passover is recorded in Exodus 12. God makes clear when the Passover should begin. (A Jewish day begins at sundown.)
Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the people of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. (Exod 12:6)
As you know, Jesus died on the day before Passover. For Jesus to fully fulfill the Scriptures He must be sacrificed on Passover. He was. Jesus descends into hell on Passover day and becomes like the ram in the burnt offering. Passover last for 12 hours. I believe this is the time Jesus suffers in hell. At dawn on Passover, Jesus strips the devil of his authority over mankind. He enters the deepest part of hell called the dungeon and declares His victory over Satan.
…He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison (1 Pet 3:18-19)
Jesus was made alive in His soul right in hell itself. He then preached victory to the spirits in prison. He also led all the Old Testament saints out of Abraham’s bosom.
This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men." (Eph 4:8)
Jesus message is clear:
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. (Rev 1:18)
Jesus defeated the devil in Hades (hell) and took the keys from him. He now rules!
I truly believe Satan hates this message; this is why he has tried so hard to keep people from understanding this. Heresy hunters have condemned preachers to hell if they preach this.
Hank Hanegraaff writes:
"It is at the cross—not in hell—that your salvation is either won or lost." (Christianity in Crisis, page152, Emphasis in the original)
For Hank it is an "either or" proposition. For him it is not possible that both the sufferings at the cross and in hell are essential for salvation. And to scare people from the Word of Faith position he writes:
"They are heretical, which is another way of saying that they directly oppose the clear teaching of Scripture on matters of essential importance as highlighted in the creeds and councils of the church." (Ibid. page 46, Emphasis in the original)
If you should believe like I do that Jesus' sufferings were three-fold, then he is ready to label you a heretic and send you to hell. Notice, he appeals to the creeds of the church. Well, let’s talk about the most famous creed, The Apostle’s Creed. A portion of the creed affirms Jesus descent into hell, the very thing that Hanegraaff disbelieves. It says:
"I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty…" (Emphasis added)
It’s clear that the early church believed that Jesus descended into hell. Were they heretics? The fact is, during their time if anyone refused to believe in the entire creed they were disfellowshipped. Because of efforts like Hank Hanegraaff some churches have removed this part of the Apostle's Creed from their statement or they rephrase the creed to say, "He descended into the Grave." (The word "grave" does not make sense since the previous statement in the creed already mentioned that he was "buried"; why repeat the thought? Remember that the creed was originally written in Greek, and the word for hell is Hades, and it is used consistently to speak of the place of punishment, see Luke 16:23 as an example.)
Now I’m not labeling anyone a heretic simply because they don’t have as full an understanding of the full atonement, but Hanegraaff is definitely wrong to imply that this teaching about Jesus descent into hell contradicts all the creeds. This teaching did not originated with the Word of Faith movement. It is as old as the early church.
It is time to quit using scare tactics to make people believe a certain way. I believe that a person can be saved without fully understanding what Jesus accomplished for us in His redemptive work. Hank thinks only people who believe exactly like him about the atonement can make it to heaven. He writes about the importance of his view verses our view:
"The stakes here are enormous—no less than salvation itself." (Ibid. page 154)
Wow! Hank’s fear tactics just won’t work with me. I am quite secure in my salvation and I am in fact very grateful for all Christ went through for me. Satan won't stop me from preaching the full redemptive act of Christ.
http://tbm.org/jesussuffershell.htm (http://tbm.org/jesussuffershell.htm)

[God_Owned]

To disregard the fact that Jesus died physically, Spiritually and soulishly is to ignore the very worst of Jesus' sufferings which He suffered so that we can be made alive in God Spiritually, physically and soulishly.

We were only made able to live in Him in every sense of the word because He was willing to die in every sense of the word.

[pdudgeon]

To disregard the fact that Jesus died physically, Spiritually and soulishly is to ignore the very worst of Jesus' sufferings which He suffered so that we can be made alive in God Spiritually, physically and soulishly.

We were only made able to live in Him in every sense of the word because He was willing to die in every sense of the word.

agreed. you'll get no arguements from me.:)

[pdudgeon]

so we have plenty of evidence presented for this statement.

Jesus died spiritually on the cross, separated from God, when he took our sins upon Himself. He was sinless, but being our substitute, He descended into hell, fulling paying for our sins.(Isaiah 53:11, Psalm 16:10, 22:1, Matt. 12:38-40,Matthew 27:46, Acts 2:27, 31, Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 John 4:10


does anyone wish to submit another version of this statement for consideration?

[Trish1947]

The weight it bears on salvation is that If Jesus didn't suffer spiritual, then we would have had to remain spiritually dead. In other words, we could never have been born again, forever cut off from the Spirit of God.

Jesus was cut off from the Spirit of God, just like Adam was when Adam sinned.

Adam was cut off because he sinned resulting in the spiritual death of all mankind. Jesus did not sin, but was made sin and was Spiritually cut off from God. With the debt of sin paid for all of mankind, Jesus became the first born again man in hell when God's Spirit again filled Him. He whipped the devil, took the keys of hell and death from the devil, went to the Bosom of Abraham to preached to all of the souls there in. He ascended into Heaven, sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat and was seated at the right hand of the Father.

As Jesus entered into our death, which Adam bequeathed to us by his transgression, we conversely enter into Jesus life when we confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus because we believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead, in other words we become saved, that is to say born-again.

Our salvation is was contingent on fact that Jesus suffered spiritual death (bled out), this included his physical body, his spiritual body, which included His soul. ...by the way the soul is a spiritual entity because it is invisible and if invisible, then it is spiritual. It is part of our spiritual body, just like our brain is part of our physical body.

It is important because of sell the suffering Jesus went through, begin cut off from the Spirit of God we the west and should not be treated lightly.

There is scripture to support all this.:wave:
We can probably discuss this forever.:wave: If Jesus needed to die spiritually, then why the necessity of God to be born as a different creation at His birth? He was already God when He was born, and He remained God upon His resurrection. Him being born differently as the second Adam would be totally sufficient to be born from this new Man Jesus. Our spirits didn't need to be justified as a repair job, of the old Adam. We needed to be made after the new Adam, that had already been justified in the Spirit upon His birth.1Ti 3:16 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Ti&c=3&v=16&version=KJV#16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I just see it differently. Jesus did suffer and die in the soul as the scripture says. He was separated from God, as the scripture says, and it was realized where we would realize what separation and death would be and feel like, in the soul of a person.

[God_Owned]

Jesus died spiritually on the cross, separated from God, when he took our sins upon Himself. He was sinless, but being our substitute, He descended into hell, fulling paying for our sins.(Isaiah 53:11, Psalm 16:10, 22:1, Matt. 12:38-40,Matthew 27:46, Acts 2:27, 31, Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 John 4:10


does anyone wish to submit another version of this statement for consideration?



I like it the way you have it. I vote for it.

[God_Owned]

We can probably discuss this forever.

Not me. It is a settled issue in the word. You may contiueto endeavor to usderstant the whys and ramifications, but the trught is that Jesus died Spiritually (was separated froom God) and when He Was separated from the spirit of God, his body and soul were also without life, meaning dead. His life was in the Spirit of God and/or the Spirit of life was in Him until He became separated from God.

If Jesus needed to die spiritually, then why the necessity of God to be born as a different creation at His birth?

He was born a different creation because he was the first ever born of the dead.

He was already God when He was born, and He remained God upon His resurrection. Him being born differently as the second Adam would be totally sufficient to be born from this new Man Jesus.

He wasn't created a begotten and subsequently re-born man who was always God. There is noon other like Him.

Our spirits didn't need to be justified as a repair job, of the old Adam. We needed to be made after the new Adam, that had already been justified in the Spirit upon His birth.1Ti 3:16 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Ti&c=3&v=16&version=KJV#16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Jesus went through what he did so your debt of sin could be paid which is what enabled you to successfully believe for salvation.

I just see it differently.

The scripture is replete with the truth that Jesus died Spiritually so that you don't have to. To deny this is to deny greatest of all sufferings which Jesus suffered for you.

Jesus did suffer and die in the soul as the scripture says. He was separated from God, as the scripture says, and it was realized where we would realize what separation would be and feel like, in the soul of a person.

I can't address this as long as you insist on parsing/ dissecting Jesus' death. For some reason you don't seem to understand that either Jesus was, or Jesus wasn't separated Spiritually form God. If He was, then He, meaning all of Him in every way, died the same death that Adam dieds. If he hadn't, you would not be redeemed.
This is the price the Father paid for you because he loves you.. This is what Jesus sacrificed because he loves you.

[Trish1947]

Not me. It is a settled issue in the word. You may contiueto endeavor to usderstant the whys and ramifications, but the trught is that Jesus died Spiritually (was separated froom God) and when He Was separated from the spirit of God, his body and soul were also without life, meaning dead. His life was in the Spirit of God and/or the Spirit of life was in Him until He became separated from God.



He was born a different creation because he was the first ever born of the dead.



He wasn't created a begotten and subsequently re-born man who was always God. There is noon other like Him.



Jesus went through what he did so your debt of sin could be paid which is what enabled you to successfully believe for salvation.



The scripture is replete with the truth that Jesus died Spiritually so that you don't have to. To deny this is to deny greatest of all sufferings which Jesus suffered for you.



I can't address this as long as you insist on parsing/ dissecting Jesus' death. For some reason you don't seem to understand that either Jesus was, or Jesus wasn't separated Spiritually form God. If He was, then He, meaning all of Him in every way, died the same death that Adam dieds. If he hadn't, you would not be redeemed.
This is the price the Father paid for you because he loves you.. This is what Jesus sacrificed because he loves you.
Nobody is parsing and disecting. He suffered deaths. I am not one of those that thinks that Jesus physical suffering and death of his body is all that happened. My spirit was already dead. My soul was condemned to death, So was Jesus soul as an innocent. I"m just saying I don't believe that he needed to die spiritually. The miracle of his birth and who He already was, was enough to be born of Him. I just believe when Jesus said it is finished it was. Including He came as the new Adam already justified in His Spirit, that I might be born again. He paid the price for sin of the soul, that it be saved. And suffered in the body for our healing. I don't see I'm missing one thing in the salvation message.

[J4Jesus]

Trish
Thats ok you didnt bring it up. It's just one of the points we need to talk about and vote on.

[J4Jesus]

I am prertty sure I already understood that. It was offered to answer some ourstandng questions on this thread. You have to get the facts straight before you can be effective in your writing effort.
I know you did :)
I was just asking for some help with how it was written if we needed to change it



------

But when Jesus left He held the keys, not satan. And as such, he changed things forever, so our spirit and soul do not go down to sheol, but His did.
Right he did

now this may not be a widely held WOF belief, but i think that would be because it is not widely taught, and not because it is not true.
Thats the thing it is widely taught by the alot of the well known:) Some have not widely heard ^_^ ( If they only listen to a few)

and since we are supposed to be including doctrins that are widely taught, we probably should move on. but this has been a very good discussion, and an opportunity for learning!

See above .
Maybe new ones coming on the scene dont or even if they teach it dont use that phrase. Like teaching the principle of what the Word says but not using the phrase..( Like we do for the word "trinity" "Rapture" etc Those words aren't in the Bible )

To disregard the fact that Jesus died physically, Spiritually and soulishly is to ignore the very worst of Jesus' sufferings which He suffered so that we can be made alive in God Spiritually, physically and soulishly.

We were only made able to live in Him in every sense of the word because He was willing to die in every sense of the word.

agreed. you'll get no arguements from me.:)
OK if we agree then we should be voting on it. Others may vote no.
Its not so much the phrases some use but what the Bible teaches about it. I think we havent heard the phrase JDS because the critics use that so we heard it when we came here, not from our preachers, altho they teach this.

I vote for this. But if you wish we can discuss it and then change it some way.

Quote:
Jesus died spiritually on the cross, separated from God, when he took our sins upon Himself. He was sinless, but being our substitute, He descended into hell, fully paying for our sins.(Isaiah 53:11, Psalm 16:10, 22:1, Matt. 12:38-40,Matthew 27:46, Acts 2:27, 31, Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 John 4:10

( corrected another typo in that ) :sorry:

[J4Jesus]

OK here's a suggestion
add to the first part



Spiritual death is separation from God. Jesus died spiritually on the cross, and was separated from God, crying "MY GOD MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORAKEN ME" because he took our sins upon Himself


what do you think?:)

[God_Owned]

Nobody is parsing and disecting. He suffered deaths. I am not one of those that thinks that Jesus physical suffering and death of his body is all that happened. My spirit was already dead. My soul was condemned to death, So was Jesus soul as an innocent. I"m just saying I don't believe that he needed to die spiritually.

So if God's Spirit didn't need to leave Jesus for your sake (Jesus dying Spiritually), then what does that make God? The Bible is clear, Jesus Spiritually.

The miracle of his birth and who He already was, was enough to be born of Him.

His birth did not pay the debt of sin. His death paid the debt of sin. Adam died Spiritually. All of Adams descendants were born dead Spiritually dead. ...meaning cut off form God Spiritually.
Jesus was cut off from God so you would not have to be. He suffered it as part of the debt payment for sin so you wouldn't have to suffer it.

I just believe when Jesus said it is finished it was. Including He came as the new Adam already justified in His Spirit, that I might be born again.

If this were ture then Jesus never need to be crucifired, shed His blood or suffer anything at all, because the only reason He came was to put you in right standing with God. If he put you in right standing with God, justified you in the sight of God, by merly being born, then God sent His Son to bre crucifed for nothing. Again, then what does this make God.

He paid the price for sin of the soul, that it be saved.

He paid the price for man's debt of sin, which totally permeated everything that man was once Adam sinned.

And suffered in the body for our healing.

Yep, by his stripes we where healed.

I don't see I'm missing one thing in the salvation message.

What you are missing is that Adam became Spiritually dead when he sinned. Jesus had to sufferer Spiritual death to pay the price for redeeming man from the Spiritual the Spiritual death of Adam.

You have been provided with lots of verses confirming everything I have told you.

What does the Bible say?:wave:

[God_Owned]

I know you did :)
I was just asking for some help with how it was written if we needed to change it


Right he did


Thats the thing it is widely taught by the alot of the well known:) Some have not widely heard ^_^ ( If they only listen to a few)

See above .
Maybe new ones coming on the scene dont or even if they teach it dont use that phrase. Like teaching the principle of what the Word says but not using the phrase..( Like we do for the word "trinity" "Rapture" etc Those words aren't in the Bible )

OK if we agree then we should be voting on it. Others may vote no.

Its not so much the phrases some use but what the Bible teaches about it. I think we havent heard the phrase JDS because the critics use that so we heard it when we came here, not from our preachers, altho they teach this.

I vote for this. But if you wish we can discuss it and then change it some way.

Quote:
Jesus died spiritually on the cross, separated from God, when he took our sins upon Himself. He was sinless, but being our substitute, He descended into hell, fully paying for our sins.(Isaiah 53:11, Psalm 16:10, 22:1, Matt. 12:38-40,Matthew 27:46, Acts 2:27, 31, Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 John 4:10

( corrected another typo in that ) :sorry:

JDS is just an acronym for Jesus died Spiritually, which He did.

What this is a matter of, is what does the Bible say?:wave:

[God_Owned]

Jesus died spiritually on the cross, separated from God, when he took our sins upon Himself. He was sinless, but being our substitute, He descended into hell, fulling paying for our sins.(Isaiah 53:11, Psalm 16:10, 22:1, Matt. 12:38-40,Matthew 27:46, Acts 2:27, 31, Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 John 4:10


I don't think this is perfect, but this is the one I am voting for so far.:wave:

[J4Jesus]

At the cross Jesus committed His Spirit to God. Because it was God. I don't personally believe that part of Jesus that was born of the Holy Ghost unto women could suffer.

Jesus was fully God and FULLY man. But when he came to earth he set that part aside and did not use his powers as God,even thoug he was the Son God. He fully functioned as man here and was 100% man. Everything he was and did he did as a man to be our example that we can follow to overcome every obstacle.

[J4Jesus]

God_Owned I tweeked a third time, for clarification.
what do you think?



Spiritual death is separation from God. When Jesus died on the cross, it was spiritual death, separation from God. He cried "MY GOD MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORAKEN ME" because he took our sins upon Himself


what do you think?

I changing my vote for this revised part

[J4Jesus]

Jesus died spiritually on the cross, separated from God, when he took our sins upon Himself. He was sinless, but being our substitute, He descended into hell, fulling paying for our sins.(Isaiah 53:11, Psalm 16:10, 22:1, Matt. 12:38-40,Matthew 27:46, Acts 2:27, 31, Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 John 4:10


Spiritual death is separation from God. When Jesus died on the cross, it was spiritual death, separation from God. He cried "My God My God why have your forsaken me? " because he took our sins upon Himself. He was sinless, but being our substitute, He descended into hell, fulling paying for our sins.(Isaiah 53:11, Psalm 16:10, 22:1, Matt. 12:38-40,Matthew 27:46, Acts 2:27, 31, Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 John 4:10

[J4Jesus]

We can revise and discuss peacefully ;)
I'll be back later

[J4Jesus]

I don't think this is perfect, but this is the one I am voting for so far.:wave:

Anyone is welcome to suggest revisions or other versions

[God_Owned]

[/color]

Jesus was fully God and FULLY man. But when he came to earth he set that part aside and did not use his powers as God,even thoug he was the Son God. He fully functioned as man here and was 100% man. Everything he was and did he did as a man to be our example that we can follow to overcome every obstacle.

Really? What other man on earth was being transfigured, walking though crowds of people without being seen, healing all who believed on him, translated from one place to another, restoring the guards ear. etc.:confused:

[Trish1947]

What you are missing is that Adam became Spiritually dead when he sinned. Jesus had to sufferer Spiritual death to pay the price for redeeming man from the Spiritual the Spiritual death of Adam.

You have been provided with lots of verses confirming everything I have told you.

What does the Bible say?:wave:

As I said before..There had to be a recreation of our spirits. Jesus by being born the new Adam came into this world to give us that part of Himself that was created in Gods image at his birth. If Jesus had to pay by becoming spiritually dead when Jesus already was made spirtually alive when He was born that way, already is a contradiction in terms. The Bible says that the soul that sins shall die.Eze 18:4 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=18&v=4&version=KJV#4)Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. I'm providing scripture also.. It doesn't say that Gods spirit was made the sin offering. It's not like I'm not providing any scripture here.

Isa 53:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=10&version=kjv#10)¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Isa 53:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=11&version=kjv#11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=12&version=kjv#12) Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

I see nothing saying that His Spirit died.

[DavidPresently]

I see nothing saying that His Spirit died.

You see nothing in Scripture about his Spirit dying, as the second person of Elohim, the everlasting Son, because his Spirit didn't die. What the others are doing is rationalizing with their natural understanding how the atonement and separation (forsaking) worked, rather than going by what Scripture actually states.

I don't care how many WoF preachers or teachers say his Spirit died - I'm going with Scripture on it and not presuming something not stated in Scripture.

I could show from Scripture how the first Adam was created verses the last Adam, and that the first Adam WAS NOT immortal spirit everlasting life being. No where in Scripture does is say the lost are everlasting spirit beings. It rather calls them souls (living creatures) and John 3 clearly states that a living soul must then be born of the Spirit to become a spirit being. The first Adam was created living soul and put in a body fashioned from the earth.

Adam did not die spiritually. If so,please show me one verse in all of Scripture that says the spirit of Adam died when he ate the fruit. Adam entered the experience of death. He was a living soul before, and a living soul after. The difference is that he came under the dominion of sin and death. That is a kingdom dominion issue, not a spiritual life of a spirit being issue.

Likewise, Jesus went willingly into sin and death for us, but overcame it, unlike the first Adam. The reason he was able to overcome it was because he was everlasting Spirit, and sin and death could not stand against such in the belly of the earth. Had he not remained alive in Spirit, Jesus would have failed his mission. I remind everyone that he had the power to lay his life down AND the power to take it back up again. If his everlasting Spirit had died in the grave, he would have had no power.

John 10:17-18 KJVR Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. (18) No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Again, I suggest we as being consistent with our statement already made about the Scriptures, stick to saying what Scripture says, and not going off into churchanese - no matter how strong a tradition we may hold to something. Either Scripture is our authority, or WoF leaders - who themselves don't know everything, but know and prophesy in part, just like us.

For example, I respect Kenneth Hagin Sr. very much and have learned a lot through him, but I know better than to think he was right about everything.

[God_Owned]

As I said before..There had to be a recreation of our spirits. Jesus by being born the new Adam came into this world to give us that part of Himself that was created in Gods image at his birth.

What are you talking about? Salvation, meaning becoming born-again, wasn't available before Jesus was crucified. Being born-again is how your spirit was made new when you were born again.

Jesus was Spiritually alive before he was begotten, when he was begotten and after he was begotten. He was made Spiritually dead on the cross when the Spirit of God left Him. He was born-again, which is being made spiritually alive again synonymous with being born-again, in hell.


If Jesus had to pay by becoming spiritually dead when Jesus already was made spiritually alive when He was born that way, already is a contradiction in terms. The Bible says that the soul that sins shall die.Eze 18:4 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=18&v=4&version=KJV#4)Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. I'm providing scripture also.. It doesn't say that Gods spirit was made the sin offering. It's not like I'm not providing any scripture here.
Isa 53:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=10&version=kjv#10)¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=11&version=kjv#11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=12&version=kjv#12) Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


No you don't see it in the verses you just cited and I don't disagree these verses. You are just seeing one truth to the exclusion of another truth. Jesus' soul died because it was without the Spirit of God. His body died because it was without the Spirit of God. The Spiritual life in His blood was also poured out. I other words, He suffered total death, including Spiritual death.

Since you have basically ignored all the information and scriptures I have provided you, let me ask you one question. Why would God allow Jesus to suffer a single thing that wasn't somehow was important to your salvation?:wave:

[God_Owned]

God_Owned I tweeked a third time, for clarification.
what do you think?



Spiritual death is separation from God. When Jesus died on the cross, it was spiritual death, separation from God. He cried "MY GOD MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORAKEN ME" because he took our sins upon Himself


what do you think?

I changing my vote for this revised part

OK, now I am voting for this one.

Spiritual death is separation from God. Jesus, not only died a soulish death and a physical death, additionally He died Spiritually on the cross when the Spirit of God abandoned Him just before He said, "MY GOD MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" Jesus suffered Spiritual death so we would have a way to escape spiritual death by becoming born-again." References...:wave:

[Trish1947]

What are you talking about? Salvation, meaning becoming born-again, wasn't available before Jesus was crucified. Being born-again is how your spirit was made new when you were born again.
Jesus was Spiritually alive before he was begotten, when he was begotten and after he was begotten. He was made Spiritually dead on the cross when the Spirit of God left Him. He was born-again, which is being made spiritually alive again synonymous with being born-again, in hell.



No you don't see it in the verses you just cited and I don't disagree these verses. You are just seeing one truth to the exclusion of another truth. Jesus' soul died because it was without the Spirit of God. His body died because it was without the Spirit of God. The Spiritual life in His blood was also poured out. I other words, He suffered total death, including Spiritual death.

Since you have basically ignored all the information and scriptures I have provided you, let me ask you one question. Why would God allow Jesus to suffer a single thing that wasn't somehow was important to your salvation?:wave:

Please, you don't have to sound so patronizing to me. I'm not trying to undo anyones faith here. All I was doing is providing scripture...You can make your own choice about it.

[DavidPresently]

Let us examine the "Why hast thou forsaken me" statement. Yes, this is somewhat long - it is a complicated subject - and to really do in-depth would take much longer than this. But, if you don't want to read this long of a statement - just skip it.

Ps 22:1 Concordant Literal Version
{ A Davidic Psalm } My El! My El! Why have You forsaken me? Far from my salvation are these words of my roaring.

El from ancient Hebrew means Mighty Shepherd/Ruler, and now we just say God. El is the singular masculine of Elohim the plural which literally from ancient Hebrew means Mighty Shepherd/Ruling Spirits.

Who is the El of Jesus the Son? His Father. We all agree on that I'm sure, so I won't go through Scripture proving it - but it is made clear in the NT.

Who is our El? Jesus the Son. Who is our Elohim? Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (the "us" in Gen 1:26). Our El is the "he" in Gen 1:27 by the way and the YHWH speaking to the prophets in the OT who said to Zechariah that they'd look on him who they would pierce, speaking of his coming in the flesh and death.

The generic English God confuses some of these things which is why I went back to the Hebrew above, to show singular verses plural (one of the "us" verses a "he" among the them).

Ps 22:1 Concordant Literal Version
{ A Davidic Psalm } My El! My El! Why have You forsaken me? Far from my salvation are these words of my roaring.

What part of Jesus was roaring in agony on the cross? What part of him was being distressed in the garden before he went to the cross? What it is perfect Spirit or was it his flesh and blood as a living soul among men? It was his soul. Which is also in line with the Scripture Trish provided about the soul offered for the remission of sins.

Why is the blood shed for remission of sins? Leviticus says it is because that is WHERE the soul is - the life of the living creature is in the blood. Therefore, we are not to eat/drink blood, but it can be spilled according to the commands for remission of sin, which Jesus fulfilled as the sacrificial Lamb.

In Hebrew Scripture, the whole living creature is called soul, which includes mind, emotions, and body. However, now days, due to the infiltration of Greco/Roman thinking from pagan religion, a soul is though of differently than the Scriptures actually state.
So, what part of Jesus was dying on the cross and suffering in agony in the garden, not wanting to go through with it? The soul. What won the battle so that Jesus could say, "Father, not my will be done, but your will be done?" The perfect Spirit. The soul was in doubt and fear, but the Spirit was not and dominated the soul.

Likewise, on the cross, the Psalmist foretells this and says that his roaring is far from his salvation.

That is, Jesus was fulfilling prophecy by saying what he did, but it wasn't his perfect Spirit agonizing and roaring out like that. It was his pain-filled soul that was crying out in agony, "My God, My God (the Father), why hast thou forsaken me?"

Well, why had the Father forsaken his soul and was not saving it? Because he took our sins on himself, so that our SOULS might be SAVED. Don't we say, "We need to get more souls saved for God." Isn't that the cry of evangelicals world-wide??

Why? Because it isn't the man born of the Spirit that sins or needs saved! See 1 John on that. It is the SOUL. The SOUL must be atoned for, because until then, God has forsaken that soul - that soul is separated from God other than the simple soulish life given to all living souls to live and breath on earth. However, once the SOUL is saved by the atonement of Messiah, what happens? A living spirit with the same everlasting life in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is conceived. Thus, the living soul becomes a new creature, an everlasting-life filled spirit being.

Jesus in John 3 didn't say that a spirit man gets remade. No, he said flesh men get born of the spirit - a whole new creation that didn't exist before. He said we must be flesh born of the flesh and then spirit born of the Spirit. Souls (flesh and blood) give birth to souls. Spirit gives birth to spirit, he said.

So, again, what atonement was needed to save souls? That his soul was forsaken by Father, that he might die for us. His blood (wherein lies the soul - nephesh - life) was shed for the remission of sins, and his body (where the soul resided) was broken and striped for our healing.

The new spirit man created at the new birth DOESN'T NEED SALVATION. HE DOESN'T NEED ATONEMENT. He's never sinned. He does not sin.

1 John 3:9 KJVR Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I know that tradition states otherwise and that there is a lot of traditional thinking to still overcome in the churches, even in WoF. But, the Scripture is clear about what a soul really is, in the flesh and blood, and what a spirit really is and how we become spirit beings - new creatures. It also is clear that the spirit born of the Spirit of God doesn't sin. Period. I don't care who says different, I'm going with John, not some preacher no matter how much he knew about other