IMHO: ELCA's last straw.

[NordicLutheran]

Ok, so this afternoon I was looking on yahoo news and I saw this little article on lutheran pastors being allowed to be in homosexual relationships. I laughed a little because I was wondering how the European news got into the U.S. news. I clicked on it and to my dismay I saw what the ELCA did this week. It upsets me a little bit. I just pray that through those Lutherans who are hurt by this decision can be comforted by my favorite hymn: Be still, my soul: the Lord is on thy side.
Bear patiently the cross of grief or pain.
Leave to thy God to order and provide;
In every change, He faithful will remain.
Be still, my soul: thy best, thy heavenly Friend
Through thorny ways leads to a joyful end.

[dinkime]

:prayer: :prayer: :prayer: :prayer:








:sigh:

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Ugh. Looks like I've gotta call my ELCA friends...

[Melethiel]

Crap.

[LilLamb219]

Do you have the link?

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20227563/

[français]

It is not my place to judge someone, so that's fine with me!

[NewGuy101]

ay caramba!

[porterross]

Sadly, this is no surprise.

[NewGuy101]

Sadly, this is no surprise.

It was the next logical step since their acceptance of homosexuality.

[wanderingone]

As an ELCA Lutheran in a Lutherans Concerned congregation I'm quite happy with the decision.

[Lupinus]

one more reason not to go to an ELCA church.

We all fall short and are sinners, but those who activly, knowlingly, and unrepentantly chose to live in a sinful manner have no place leading others.

[DaRev]

I guess we will need to prepare for some folks flocking out of the ELCA and into LCMS congregations. I know a few who will do just that, including an ELCA pastor.

[QuiltAngel]

Pastor Paul McCain blogged about this on his site: http://cyberbrethren.typepad.com/cyberbrethren/

After reading this, it is really sad. More than we think. There seemed to be a group determined to get something passed, even after two others were not passed.

[DaSeminarian]

If this is a surprise to anyone they have had their eyes closed for the past 7 years. This has been a long-time coming from this synod.

We don't judge people, but we can judge institutions who should know better.

[DaSeminarian]

As an ELCA Lutheran in a Lutherans Concerned congregation I'm quite happy with the decision.


You evidently do not know scriptures very well. Homosexuality is a SIN!!! We need to condemn this as sin so that those trapped by it may have a way out. The ELCA is not providing a way out, but excusing this sin. Those in the higher echelons of the synod will be judged harshly by God for their actions.:eek:

[Edial]

As an ELCA Lutheran in a Lutherans Concerned congregation I'm quite happy with the decision.
As an ELCA Lutheran I am quiet upset with the decision.

[français]

You evidently do not know scriptures very well. Homosexuality is a SIN!!! We need to condemn this as sin so that those trapped by it may have a way out. The ELCA is not providing a way out, but excusing this sin. Those in the higher echelons of the synod will be judged harshly by God for their actions.:eek:

Luke 6:37 says to not condemn..

And it all depends on your interpretation...

[porterross]

When this happened in the Episcopal church, there was an initial reaction, but unless and until an individual congregation is directly bothered, I doubt the members will abandon their clergy who are opposed to this decision. There will likely be a split at some point because of it, though; much like the one being awaited by American Anglicans.

[Aibrean]

Condemn or not, we hate the sin and love the sinner but when it's a pastor they are periodically sinning in full front of the congregation and thus making a poor example and diluting the strength of the Bible and Christians that actually follow the Bible. Additionally, we are not to be a stumbling block for others and I just can't see how that would be healthy for any church.

Women as pastors is one thing. Practicing homosexuals is another.

This world is becoming more sick and twisted.

[DaRev]

:)

[Aibrean]

Boy... *bites REAL hard on tongue*

I could say something here, but I think I'll just let it slide.

:sorry:
Two "wrongs" don't make a right :) ...I did edit the post. I don't believe women should be pastors either. The point I was trying to make is how far is the ELCA willing to go?

[DaSeminarian]

Boy... *bites REAL hard on tongue*

I could say something here, but I think I'll just let it slide.

:sorry:


Good for you Rev. :D

[Edial]

Luke 6:37 says to not condemn..

And it all depends on your interpretation...

1CO 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

[DaRev]

1CO 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."




:thumbsup:

Jesus' return is certainly coming closer! :clap:

[thereselittleflower]

May I ask, will this cause a split in the ECLA or a mass defection as someone predicted above?

I am really sorry this is happening for those of you who hold to conservative beliefs regarding sin.

.

[porterross]

Originally Posted by DaRev http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=37595471#post37595471)
Boy... *bites REAL hard on tongue*

I could say something here, but I think I'll just let it slide.:sorry:




Does this qualify as a miracle? :D ;)

[DaRev]

May I ask, will this cause a split in the ECLA or a mass defection as someone predicted above?

I am really sorry this is happening for those of you who hold to conservative beliefs regarding sin.

.

I'm kinda confused by what you mean by "conservative beliefs regarding sin." The Scriptures very, very clearly state that homosexual behavior is a sin. In fact, it specifically refers to such as 'an abomination to God'.

And yes, I have been told by more than a few people that they would leave the ELCA if it came to that. And it looks like it has. In our community, there have also been a number of people disgruntled by the Roman catholic Church for various reasons. I was recently made aware of a group of folks from the local RCC's that they would like a Saturday evening liturgical Lutheran worship service to attend because they are leaving the RCC. Thus, we may be staring a Saturday evening service here real soon to accomodate. :thumbsup:

[DaSeminarian]

May I ask, will this cause a split in the ECLA or a mass defection as someone predicted above?

I am really sorry this is happening for those of you who hold to conservative beliefs regarding sin.

.


I don't know that it will cause a split, but it might make a few people pause to consider what this means to their synod. I am hoping that the LCMS determines to break any ties with them because of this.

[Aibrean]

Even if you don't think it's sin, it's not setting a good example of what a "Christian" is.

Liberals are ruining America, it's sad they are seeping into the church.

When describing overseers ("bishop" is the translation), it says they should take one WIFE (not husband or man). All Biblical and dictionary references I've seen refer to wife as a woman.

1 Timothy 3:2-7 (A homosexual couldn't have a family or children as described in this passage). Note verse 7 which is my main point.

Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.


Romans 1:18-32

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

[PreachersWife2004]

As I posted in another thread around here somewhere, since they've decided that homosexuality isn't a sin anymore, what's next?

Oh, and that noise y'all hear is Luther doing a couple of rollovers in his grave.

[DaRev]

Oh, and that noise y'all hear is Luther doing a couple of rollovers in his grave.

A couple? The poor dolt has been doing back flips for the last 20+ years!

[NordicLutheran]

I just keep hoping that Lutherans who are in the few conservative strongholds that there are in the ELCA will know that now is the time to jump ship. I thought up a great new slogan- The ELCA: Going from Lutheran to Liberal Mainline in 18 years. I do have a question though. Is it a sin to stay in a heterodox church and yet yourself not be heterodox. I think this is a fair comparison about conservatives being within the ELCA. Could someone shine some light on this question for me?

[DaRev]

I just keep hoping that Lutherans who are in the few conservative strongholds that there are in the ELCA will know that now is the time to jump ship. I thought up a great new slogan- The ELCA: Going from Lutheran to Liberal Mainline in 18 years. I do have a question though. Is it a sin to stay in a heterodox church and yet yourself not be heterodox. I think this is a fair comparison about conservatives being within the ELCA. Could someone shine some light on this question for me?

Well, you apt to get a couple of different responses to this question.

From the LCMS standpoint, a congregation belongs to a church body because it agrees with the public confession of that church body. Confessing members of a congregation thus are publicly confessing that congregation's public confession, which is in agreement with their church body's confession. Therefore...

I have to admit I don't know a whole lot about the ELCA polity, but individual congregations may have a different view of this. Time, I guess, will tell that.

[Aibrean]

What you said, DaRev, was my point.

I don't see how they can justify that it's ok to be doing that.

[Lupinus]

Whether we should condemn others or not isn't the point at all. But there is no justification for allowing or downright encouraging someone living in a blatantly sinful manner to lead a congregation. None at all.

Are we all sinners? Yes, absolutely. Are we all blatant unrepentant sinners? No, I don't believe so. I know I personally pray and pray often for forgiveness of my sins, and the strength and guidance to overcome them. Can we say the same about someone who leads a sinful lifestyle they see nothing wrong with and goes on their merry way? No, I don't think we truthfully can.

Now, if they were repentant and resisted their urges to sin as best they could? Fine, no problem. We are all sinners, we all give into sin occasionally. What separates it is understanding the action was wrong, against God, and working to not do it again.

Would you be ok with a Pastor who consistently and without repentance kept a wife and a few women on the side? How about one who gave into the urges to use drugs? Pick up hookers? Steal? Would you be fine with a Pastor doing any of these sins openly, unrepentantly, and having convinced himself his actions are not sinful in nature?

[DaSeminarian]

A couple? The poor dolt has been doing back flips for the last 20+ years!

I just hope his coffin was 3 sizes bigger than his body if this were possible. ;)

[PreachersWife2004]

Lupinus, you bring up excellent points that will, however, fall on deaf ears for those that have chosen to accept this lifestyle, mainly because they don't equate homosexuality with a sin anymore. Not too long ago a friend of mine was involved in a debate where she talked about pedophilia alongside homosexuality and she got banned from the forum for comparing the two...

[Orion567]

Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy. :cry:

[DaRev]

Would you be ok with a Pastor who consistently and without repentance kept a wife and a few women on the side? How about one who gave into the urges to use drugs? Pick up hookers? Steal? Would you be fine with a Pastor doing any of these sins openly, unrepentantly, and having convinced himself his actions are not sinful in nature?

I know the policy of such in the LCMS is "defrock now, ask questions later".

And the term "repentant homosexual" is actually a contradiction of terms. If one were truly repentant, he/she wouldn't be homosexual.

[Radiata]

I know the policy of such in the LCMS is "defrock now, ask questions later".

And the term "repentant homosexual" is actually a contradiction of terms. If one were truly repentant, he/she wouldn't be homosexual.
And before anyone can say it, Homosexuality isn't genetic.

But anyway, do you think the ELCA is going to split, or is the Lutheran denomination going to expel them?

[Melethiel]

And before anyone can say it, Homosexuality isn't genetic.

But anyway, do you think the ELCA is going to split, or is the Lutheran denomination going to expel them?
While I do think homosexuality has a genetic component, it does not change the fact that it's sin. Some people are genetically predisposed to violence or alcoholism, but that doesn't change that those things are sins.

[JimfromOhio]

In Ohio, a local ELCA church said this in our local newspaper: Read Here: Columbus Dispatch (http://www.dispatch.com/dispatch/content/local_news/stories/2007/08/08/gayluth.ART_ART_08-08-07_A1_CP7IBN0.html)

The church already is working to have a social statement on human sexuality completed by the time the assembly meets in 2009, he said.

Ulring said he is sympathetic to gay pastors who have to leave their posts but supports the current policy because "homosexual behavior is contrary to the will of God."

My wife and I will be meeting a pastor from this church. This Church is big and has 8 pastors.

Another Lutheran Church we are considering is LCMS.

[Radiata]

Another Lutheran Church we are considering is LCMS.
:clap: :wave: :groupray: :D ^_^
Before DaRev says it.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

In Ohio, a local ELCA church said this in our local newspaper: Read Here: Columbus Dispatch (http://www.dispatch.com/dispatch/content/local_news/stories/2007/08/08/gayluth.ART_ART_08-08-07_A1_CP7IBN0.html)



My wife and I will be meeting a pastor from this church. This Church is big and has 8 pastors.

Another Lutheran Church we are considering is LCMS.
Awesome.

[DaSeminarian]

From what I heard of the letter the ELCA is speaking from both sides of their mouth. On one side they will not condemn those already ordained and actively gay, but they will not ordain any new actively gay ministers.

When a church body doesn't see the authority in the scriptures they become heterodox and in this case apostate.

[DaSeminarian]

And before anyone can say it, Homosexuality isn't genetic.

But anyway, do you think the ELCA is going to split, or is the Lutheran denomination going to expel them?


No they will not split over this. They may lose some who were on the fence with this issue, but they will not see a split.

:sick:

[Lupinus]

And the term "repentant homosexual" is actually a contradiction of terms. If one were truly repentant, he/she wouldn't be homosexual.
True enough and I may have used a poor choice of words in what I was trying to say.

[PreachersWife2004]

Not necessarily.

I have a cousin who is gay. He has no attraction to women whatsoever, but he is attracted to men. He does not act on these attractions, he treats his homosexuality much like many of us treated our sexual desires before we were married (I hope that makes sense).

He is a repentant Christian, but he is still gay, by definition. He just has learned that his desires are his cross to bear, and that unless he somehow becomes attracted to women and finds the right one (and believe me, he prays for it!) he will be celibate for his entire life.

And he's okay with it. His logic (aside from the Christian aspect)? Just because it feels good doesn't mean it's the right thing. And he says it is a hard line to follow, especially when there are a lot of Christian heterosexuals living an equally sinful life but there's not near the outrage. And he's got a point, I suppose.

But anyway, the point is, I think you can be repentant "sinner", while still struggling against that sin every day.

Make sense?

[JimfromOhio]

Not necessarily.

I have a cousin who is gay. He has no attraction to women whatsoever, but he is attracted to men. He does not act on these attractions, he treats his homosexuality much like many of us treated our sexual desires before we were married (I hope that makes sense).

He is a repentant Christian, but he is still gay, by definition. He just has learned that his desires are his cross to bear, and that unless he somehow becomes attracted to women and finds the right one (and believe me, he prays for it!) he will be celibate for his entire life.

And he's okay with it. His logic (aside from the Christian aspect)? Just because it feels good doesn't mean it's the right thing. And he says it is a hard line to follow, especially when there are a lot of Christian heterosexuals living an equally sinful life but there's not near the outrage. And he's got a point, I suppose.

But anyway, the point is, I think you can be repentant "sinner", while still struggling against that sin every day.

Make sense?

Yes.. makes sense and I do agree. We all are sinners as long as we don't act on them.

[Lupinus]

yeah, you know that last post I typed and erased alot. Just as well you said what I was trying to say and jumbling in the wordage lol

[PreachersWife2004]

yeah, you know that last post I typed and erased alot. Just as well you said what I was trying to say and jumbling in the wordage lol

Well, it does tend to help when your family member has direct knowledge of how it feels!

It's also funny because the ones that I "Argue" with about homosexuality being a sin claim that I hate gay people and that I think I'm better than they are (I'm having this very conversation with someone over in Looking for a Church!) which I've never claimed either, but my cousin would be willing to vouch for me that I absolutely love gay people.

I have several friends that are gay...some are practicing, some are not. I love them all dearly, and I think that makes it worse sometimes, ya know?

[JimfromOhio]

I do have one issue about "act". Paul said, "But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment" (1 Corinthians 11:31). We can escape the critical judgment of God by doing our own exercising of critical self-judgment. Even Jesus spoke the issues of a person's heart. One great example is this verse: Matthew 5:28 "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." We are to "Watch and pray that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."--Matt. 26:41.

[PreachersWife2004]

I do have one issue about "act". Paul said, "But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment" (1 Corinthians 11:31). We can escape the critical judgment of God by doing our own exercising of critical self-judgment. Even Jesus spoke the issues of a person's heart. One great example is this verse: Matthew 5:28 "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." We are to "Watch and pray that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."--Matt. 26:41.

This is true, but for me, acting and thinking are much the same thing, so I repent of my thoughts as well. I see no distinction in the two, and it's something that I continue to struggle with as part of my sinful nature.

In the case of homosexuality (as well as having sex before marriage, etc) it is a matter of an open sin being committed and there being no repentance. This is why it is called an active sinful lifestyle. As I've been maintaining, there is a difference between a sinner and an unrepentant sinner.

Now, I think that's what you're referring to in your post. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

[JimfromOhio]

This is true, but for me, acting and thinking are much the same thing, so I repent of my thoughts as well. I see no distinction in the two, and it's something that I continue to struggle with as part of my sinful nature.

In the case of homosexuality (as well as having sex before marriage, etc) it is a matter of an open sin being committed and there being no repentance. This is why it is called an active sinful lifestyle. As I've been maintaining, there is a difference between a sinner and an unrepentant sinner.

Now, I think that's what you're referring to in your post. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

You are not wrong. We are still in the flesh even though we are "in Christ" spiritually. We are saved when the Holy Spirit convicting us to repent and help us change our ways. Repenting is our continuious sanctification process throughout our Christian lives. The key to holiness is submitting to the Spirit's control in daily life that will enable us to overcome the human nature and live through grace's sufficiency.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Not necessarily.

I have a cousin who is gay. He has no attraction to women whatsoever, but he is attracted to men. He does not act on these attractions, he treats his homosexuality much like many of us treated our sexual desires before we were married (I hope that makes sense).

He is a repentant Christian, but he is still gay, by definition. He just has learned that his desires are his cross to bear, and that unless he somehow becomes attracted to women and finds the right one (and believe me, he prays for it!) he will be celibate for his entire life.

And he's okay with it. His logic (aside from the Christian aspect)? Just because it feels good doesn't mean it's the right thing. And he says it is a hard line to follow, especially when there are a lot of Christian heterosexuals living an equally sinful life but there's not near the outrage. And he's got a point, I suppose.

But anyway, the point is, I think you can be repentant "sinner", while still struggling against that sin every day.

Make sense?
Yes. Good for your cousin. That's a respectable position. Godspeed in his efforts.

[DaRev]

Not necessarily.

I have a cousin who is gay. He has no attraction to women whatsoever, but he is attracted to men. He does not act on these attractions, he treats his homosexuality much like many of us treated our sexual desires before we were married (I hope that makes sense).

He is a repentant Christian, but he is still gay, by definition. He just has learned that his desires are his cross to bear, and that unless he somehow becomes attracted to women and finds the right one (and believe me, he prays for it!) he will be celibate for his entire life.

And he's okay with it. His logic (aside from the Christian aspect)? Just because it feels good doesn't mean it's the right thing. And he says it is a hard line to follow, especially when there are a lot of Christian heterosexuals living an equally sinful life but there's not near the outrage. And he's got a point, I suppose.

But anyway, the point is, I think you can be repentant "sinner", while still struggling against that sin every day.

Make sense?

Yes.. makes sense and I do agree. We all are sinners as long as we don't act on them.

The sin originates in the heart.
Jesus said, "but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart." It makes no matter whether we "act" on our urges or not. It is still a sin. If someone who claims to be a homosexual says "I'm still attracted but I don't act on it," can we really say that he/she is repentant? And the answer is No, we can't.

Now, it's true that we are all guilty of the sin mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 5. But for us to say that we are "repentant" or that we are not sinning by not carrying through with our lusts is just plain wrong.

Remember our friend Simon the Pharisee from Luke 7. He was quick to judge the sin of the woman annointing Jesus' feet, but Jesus was quick to point out Simon's own sins of the heart. Thinking and doing make no difference in the eyes of God.

[JimfromOhio]

Remember our friend Simon the Pharisee from Luke 7. He was quick to judge the sin of the woman annointing Jesus' feet, but Jesus was quick to point out Simon's own sins of the heart. Thinking and doing make no difference in the eyes of God.


That's the point I was trying to say in my posts. This is where we should have a serious responsibility in this matter to search in our hearts about our motives when we consider what is sin and what is not. Our motives in the Christian life should be both right and genuine. My heart is where God meets us because that is where I make my decisions. One example is praying, "When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives" (James 4:3). What you pray for sounds pure but God looks in the heart to see if you are requesting from a pure heart. our own self-interest motives conduct even though it is part of our fallen nature, is sinful. A true love of God must begin with a delight in his holiness.

[PreachersWife2004]

Let me clarify, too.

When I say he is still attracted, I mean to say that he doesn't look at a guy and say "hey, he's good looking". I mean to say that he knows that if he were ever to forgo his heavenly father he would date men. He knows that he is drawn to men (like pedophiles are drawn to young children) and THAT is his struggle.My cousin doesn't fantasize about being with men or anything like that.

We ALL face temptation...it's how we handle that temptation that separates us.

Sorry if I confused anyone.

[Lupinus]

true enough rev, true enough.

But one of the big parts here is that he understands it is wrong and prays to move away from his attraction to men to a path that better befits what God has prescribed. To me, that is the big difference that makes him repetant and not the homosexual who sees nothing wrong with their lifestyle unrepetant.

If repetance meant that we were without sin none of us would be so. To me it is an issue of blatant unrepetant lifestyles, not sin itself as none of us are without sin.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

true enough rev, true enough.

But one of the big parts here is that he understands it is wrong and prays to move away from his attraction to men to a path that better befits what God has prescribed. To me, that is the big difference that makes him repetant and not the homosexual who sees nothing wrong with their lifestyle unrepetant.

If repetance meant that we were without sin none of us would be so.
Exactly.

It's absolutely true that feelings and intentions are just as sinful as outward actions. But it's equally true that in this particular case, so it seems, he is striving for deeper holiness and aware of the sinful nature of his inclinations.

[Lupinus]

yes, and a Pastor drawn towards men but capable of restraining himself, understood it was wrong, prayed that the Holy Spirit would guide him to a better path, etc I wouldn't have a problem. It is an openly gay person without repetance and see's no problem with their sin that has no buisness being a Pastor.

I wont say they would be the best choice for a Pastor, but I wouldn't have a problem with them either.

[DaRev]

yes, and a Pastor drawn towards men but capable of restraining himself, understood it was wrong, prayed that the Holy Spirit would guide him to a better path, etc I wouldn't have a problem. It is an openly gay person without repetance and see's no problem with their sin that has no buisness being a Pastor.

I wont say they would be the best choice for a Pastor, but I wouldn't have a problem with them either.

I would have issues even with one who is "drawn towards men but capable of restraining." The qualifications of the Office includes the line "must be above reproach." If it is known or becomes known of this attraction it would damage the Office and the ability of him to minister. One such should not even be considered for the pastorate.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I would have issues even with one who is "drawn towards men but capable of restraining." The qualifications of the Office includes the line "must be above reproach." If it is known or becomes known of this attraction it would damage the Office and the ability of him to minister. One such should not even be considered for the pastorate.
Agreed.

[NordicLutheran]

I would have issues even with one who is "drawn towards men but capable of restraining." The qualifications of the Office includes the line "must be above reproach." If it is known or becomes known of this attraction it would damage the Office and the ability of him to minister. One such should not even be considered for the pastorate.
Above reproach? So if a man was a repentant murderer, adulterer, or alcoholic and he became ordained that would be fine? Doesn't that statement above contribute to some false dogma from Roman Catholocism stating that some sins are worse than others? Or are there varying degrees of sins? Some info would be great. :) Oh and btw I just read GratiaCorpusCristi's signature. The quote from Saint Athanasius...well I've known of only one other person to claim that we can become God and that was Joseph Smith.

[QuiltAngel]

Above reproach? So if a man was a repentant murderer, adulterer, or alcoholic and he became ordained that would be fine? Doesn't that statement above contribute to some false dogma from Roman Catholocism stating that some sins are worse than others? Or are there varying degrees of sins? Some info would be great. :) Oh and btw I just read GratiaCorpusCristi's signature. The quote from Saint Athanasius...well I've known of only one other person to claim that we can become God and that was Joseph Smith.

Have you read 1 Timothy 3?

[Studeclunker]

Becky, you are right on in your posts. thank you, you took the words right out of my mouth.

Recovering Alcoholics, Drug Addicts, and Adulterers? Take a look at the pastorate that are under Chuck Smith. You'll find the lot. Yet some of these people have the most inspiring stories of redemption and salvation to tell.

One of the facts that have recently been discovered about homosexuality (in men at least) is that they have an imbalance in their brain chemistry. This causes a malfunction in their sexual drive. Whilst this same study was going on, they discovered how to correct the problem. Homosexuality is a disorder that can be corrected. The problem is that most of it's victims don't want to be cured and it's not politically correct to suggest they need to be.

As to the ELCA, I broke with them well over ten years ago. The church's support of Statement On Human Sexuality proved to me that this same church hierarchy was corrupted beyond redemption. This current situation only surprises me because it took so long to occur. There will likely be no mass migration at this point. The majority of people who objected most strenuously to this have already left long ago...:sigh:

As to the LCMS? I'd be careful folks. Our own glass house is in perilous order as well. I can only pray and hope that this situation with our sister congregation will move the laity as well as the pastorate to action. Elsewise we will be joining the ELCA in Sheol.

[DaSeminarian]

As to the LCMS? I'd be careful folks. Our own glass house is in perilous order as well. I can only pray and hope that this situation with our sister congregation will move the laity as well as the pastorate to action. Elsewise we will be joining the ELCA in Sheol.


were it not that 90% of the faculty and students walked out in 1974 we would be where the ELCA is now. I am starting to see Seminex as a Blessing rather than a mistake.

[PreachersWife2004]

Pastors are held to a higher degree. If my husband ever committed a crime, even if he repented of it, he would be asked to step down. If there was an affair, even if he repented of it, he would be asked to step down. How can he uphold the law to his congregation if he himself cannot keep it?

Of course, we all sin and fall short of the glory of God, and while there's no difference in the degree of sins, I think we can agree that a "large" sin on the part of a pastor is viewed differently than the "large" sin of a layperson. And rightfully so. As QuiltAngel pointed out, read 1 Timothy 3.

It's something that we do struggle with here, too, simply because our whole family is scrutinized. When Matt and I first got engaged, he had to write a letter to his council to explain how it was that I already had a child. (This was so it was in official records) He had to do this because some of the ladies of the congregation were wagging their tongues. It was not right at all...but very indicative of the attitude towards pastors and their families.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Oh and btw I just read GratiaCorpusCristi's signature. The quote from Saint Athanasius...well I've known of only one other person to claim that we can become God and that was Joseph Smith.

Then you'd better go back and reread your Luther. And all the church fathers.

And the OP of this thread: Theosis: A Lutheran Doctrine (http://www.christianforums.com/t5876012-theosis-a-lutheran-doctrine.html).

[Luther073082]

I'm going to have to get some more information on this, my pastor might have the info. I havn't heard of it til now.

At some point or another they are going to split the church with this. I agree with the biblical basis of celibate pastors who are attracted to other people of the opposite sex are ok. (Bible always condemns the action)

However just letting gay people in a relationship lead a church is against what the bible would have to say on the subject. This could split the church up and honestly in some ways I'm really hoping it does. I don't like the fact that my offerings are supporting a national organization which condones gay relationships. But then again I love my parish. . .

[Luther073082]

Ok I figured I get a little more. . .

Its a fluff peace, its not binding and was ment to appease some people.

Its basically just urges bishops to use restraint in diciplining pastors that are hiding a gay relationship. However it is not binding to the bishops can still apply punishments as they see fit.

I personally don't agree with the decision because I want those pastors to receive the same punshments as a single pastor who had pre-marital sex. (I think they are often forgiven once but the second time they are typically de-frocked depending on the bishop)

Its definatly a decision of some heavy conern but I don't think will quite split the church but its definatly going to rile the conservative members of the ELCA a lot. I'm becomming very uncomfortable because I see a church split in the future and I would like to have it just happen now and get it overwith.

If I have to leave the ELCA, I'm not sure where I'm going to go. I've gotten a lot of bad impressions of the LCMS from LCMS members and how they have acted in the past.

If it comes down to leaving the ELCA I think I'll probably be methodist. They don't condone same sex relationships do they?

[PreachersWife2004]

While we share doctrinal differences, there is nothing wrong with attending an LCMS church. They offer the word in its truth and entirety, and unlike most churches, aren't willing to compromise on their beliefs on sin. If someone didn't want to attend a WELS church, but still wanted a good Lutheran church, I'd recommend the LCMS.

[Luther073082]

While we share doctrinal differences, there is nothing wrong with attending an LCMS church. They offer the word in its truth and entirety, and unlike most churches, aren't willing to compromise on their beliefs on sin. If someone didn't want to attend a WELS church, but still wanted a good Lutheran church, I'd recommend the LCMS.

It has more to do with the attitude of LCMS members and the even larger attitude of not wanting to work with other churchs not called "Lutheran" that bothers me about the LCMS and the WELS.

Maybe it has something also to do with the community I'm in. We have two LCMS churchs in the community that really won't work with any other church groups. (they might work together I don't know) While just about every other church works together in our community. My pastor is friends with just about every other pastor in the community, but the pastors at the LCMS churchs won't even take his calls. (And he's tried multiple times) I know the pastor that is leavning my one of the LCMS churchs (my uncle goes there) was kind of a jerk and constatly complained about his pay. I went to see my cousin's baby baptized there and the pastor in his sermon (and in seriousness) said that prior to her baptism her baby was "demon posessed". I wouldn't repeat that if I had not heard it myself, and I think even in the LCMS thats bad theology. If my pastor said that I'd be up out of my pew at that moment challenging his assertions but I don't like to do that when I'm a guest.

They really need a pastor that is going to clean up the problems in that parish. The members there have a very cold and unfriendly attitude the members are in cliques and their kids are also in cliques. We have a lot of members that are refugee's from that particular congregation.

The thing is that I've been to about 6 different LCMS churchs before and of those 6 I've only been to one where the congregation was warm and friendly.

[PreachersWife2004]

There is a huge difference between not having fellowship with another church, and not working with them.

I've never been in a WELS church that refused to WORK with other churches. The only time is when the work involved a joint worship service. That goes against our fellowship doctrine.

[Luther073082]

There is a huge difference between not having fellowship with another church, and not working with them.

I've never been in a WELS church that refused to WORK with other churches. The only time is when the work involved a joint worship service. That goes against our fellowship doctrine.

I've seen in practice its both. In terms of mutual services I still belive that fellowship is possible so long as the congregation upholds clear biblical truths. (Which is why I don't like the relationship we have with the UCC and Episcopal (sp?) churchs) But I know we have a strong fellowhip with a non-denominational church in a nearby city and we've held many services together.

In fact our pastors wife took a bunch of women over there one sunday to attend their church just for fun.

[PreachersWife2004]

I've seen in practice its both. In terms of mutual services I still belive that fellowship is possible so long as the congregation upholds clear biblical truths. (Which is why I don't like the relationship we have with the UCC and Episcopal (sp?) churchs) But I know we have a strong fellowhip with a non-denominational church in a nearby city and we've held many services together.

In fact our pastors wife took a bunch of women over there one sunday to attend their church just for fun.

Hmmm...after several types and deletes, I'm going to just refrain from addressing that above point.

[Luther073082]

Hmmm...after several types and deletes, I'm going to just refrain from addressing that above point.

Thats the point, the LCMS and WELS are completly opposed to worship fellowship with non-lutheran Christians.

We've had a strong fellowship with this church for a while now and some of the women just wanted to see what their church is like. They apparently had fun. . .

Thats a big reason why I'm not a fan of joining the LCMS.

[PreachersWife2004]

Thats the point, the LCMS and WELS are completly opposed to worship fellowship with non-lutheran Christians.

We've had a strong fellowship with this church for a while now and some of the women just wanted to see what their church is like. They apparently had fun. . .

Thats a big reason why I'm not a fan of joining the LCMS.

You have a fellowship with a church that no one had attended before? And they had fun...big deal. Church isn't supposed to be about having fun. It's supposed to be about hearing the truth of God's word.

We're not against fellowship with non-lutheran Christians. We want to fellowship with those who believe as we do. That would include other denoms other than Lutheran if we ever found them. I don't see anything wrong with not wanting to worship with a church that doesn't believe in the inerrency of the bible, or with a church that goes against scripture and allows women in the pulpit. Worship fellowship means agreeing to unity...and when churches can't agree on doctrine, they are not united.

[QuiltAngel]

Sounds to me like you have a little attitude against the LCMS and WELS yourself.

Worship fellowship with non Lutherans. There are things like works righteousness, decision for Christ, the elements of communion and baptism are symbols and both have nothing to do with salvation as well as inerrancy of Scripture are some of the reasons why we don't have worship fellowship. By doing so, we would be saying that these doctrines are correct.

I am sorry that you have found the LCMS churches you have visited to be cold, but you know what, those can be found in any denomination, even in the ELCA.

About 10 years ago, for my parents 50th Anniversary, we attended worship with them in their church (not Lutheran). They had communion that day and what was said about communion was along the lines of "what you think communion is, it is." Huh? Wait one minute here! If it was not for the fact that it was a special occasion, the 5 of us would have gotten up and walked out, but then we would not have been there if not for that occasion.

Our community has a summer festival each year with a worship service. There is a rotation of which church sponsors the service and when it is your turn, you have the whole service. That is how it was arranged so as to allow the Lutheran churches to be involved, yet not compromising their beliefs. I suppose that would be considered not working with others.

Ok, that is more than my two cents here.

[DaSeminarian]

Thats the point, the LCMS and WELS are completly opposed to worship fellowship with non-lutheran Christians.

This is not true. We welcome non-Lutheran's to come to worship with us. We ask that they don't commune with us, but it is perfectly alright for this to sing hymns, pray, and hear the word of God. So your comment is out of line and completely shows a lack of understanding of worship.


We've had a strong fellowship with this church for a while now and some of the women just wanted to see what their church is like. They apparently had fun. . .

Thats a big reason why I'm not a fan of joining the LCMS.

Worshipping is a very serious thing. We worship in the Lutheran church mostly with those who are Lutheran. Preacher's Wife is correct in that it is not about having fun. I go to amusement parks to have fun, not church. I go to nightclubs to be entertained, not church.

Your ideas of worship are very limited and somewhat profane. You don't anything about LCMS or WELS because if you truly did, you would find that we are sinners in need of a savior and we have received the Holy Spirit who has convicted us of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection.

Don't presume to know us when you really don't.

[Luther073082]

And who said you couldn't enjoy worship? If you arn't enjoying your time with God then really I question if you are going to church because you want to or out of tradition. I go to church because I enjoy my time with God, and they spent some time with God elsewhere. Big deal God is everywhere. Sure worship is serious, but if you don't enjoy being with God then do you love him?

I've also noticed that any church that doesn't follow your doctrine "doesn't belive in the inerrancy of the bible". Has it occured to you that some people might read the bible differently and it sounds really arrogent to belive that you are correct in every way and aspect and you could not possibly be wrong.

I belive in my doctrine, I belive I'm right but I also belive that ultimatly I have to be wrong about some things because there are too many things and I also realize that I am not perfect.

Your ideas of worship are very limited and somewhat profane. You don't anything about LCMS or WELS because if you truly did, you would find that we are sinners in need of a savior and we have received the Holy Spirit who has convicted us of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection.

Don't presume to know us when you really don't.

I know that about you, and I admit that I may be bias to what I've seen here and in my community. However from just what I've seen here I want nothing to do with it.

But what I do know is that I like spending my time with God. In worship, in prayer, and in song. I don't just do it cause I have to I do it cause I want to. I'm trying to learn to enjoy the word a little better but I'm working at it and when approached from the right attitude it can be very enjoyable.

[porterross]

We worship with reverence, in sincere acknowledgment of the grace bestowed upon us through Christ. There is nothing light-hearted about it and if some can't be seriously pensive, reflective and willing to focus solely on God's Word, then you're right; the LC-MS DW is likely wasted on them.

Maturity has a great deal to do with being able to appreciate what our liturgy offers. :)

[QuiltAngel]

Let's take a look at what is in the Divine Worship.

First up is the Invocation followed by Confession and Absolution. We have the Kyrie where we ask God to have mercy, Hymn of Praise, Collect and Readings, Sermon followed by the Creed, then the Prayers and Offertory and when the Sacrament is offered, the Service of the Sacrament, Dismissal and Benediction.

Let's see, confession and absolution should be serious as it is our sin that separates us from God. We thank Him for forgiving us our sins. The sermon should have a balance of Law (to convict us of our sins and to show us what we need to work on) as well as Gospel (which shows us our Saviour). The Sacrament of the Altar, I don't kow about you but the thought that someone died for me and gave us this gift of the sacrament is pretty humbling.

In the service, God comes to us in His Word and Sacrament. We approach Him with a penitential heart. It is all about what He has done, not what we do or feel. We should be reverant in worship. We don't attend worship because we "have" to, we attend worship because we "get" to. What a privilege it is to be able to attend worship.

Does that mean we are not thankful? No. Does that mean that we as Christians never have fun? No. Is Sunday morning worship the only time we spend in God's Word, singing His praised, spend in prayer? It better not be. For me, it is only one time.

We worship with reverence, in sincere acknowledgment of the grace bestowed upon us through Christ. There is nothing light-hearted about it and if some can't be seriously pensive, reflective and willing to focus solely on God's Word, then you're right; the LC-MS DW is likely wasted on them.

Maturity has a great deal to do with being able to appreciate what our liturgy offers.

Exactly!

[DaSeminarian]

And who said you couldn't enjoy worship? If you arn't enjoying your time with God then really I question if you are going to church because you want to or out of tradition. I go to church because I enjoy my time with God, and they spent some time with God elsewhere. Big deal God is everywhere. Sure worship is serious, but if you don't enjoy being with God then do you love him?

Again you misunderstand what I am saying. I didn't say you couldn't enjoy your worship, but that is not the purpose for going to church. If one goes to church to have fun, his or her priorities are wacked. As you said God is everywhere, but I look for the truth before anything else. If the truth is preached that is more important than having fun.


I've also noticed that any church that doesn't follow your doctrine "doesn't belive in the inerrancy of the bible". Has it occured to you that some people might read the bible differently and it sounds really arrogent to belive that you are correct in every way and aspect and you could not possibly be wrong.

If they are coming to my church they will hear the word as it is taken from the Greek or Hebrew and not based on an English Revised translation. I'm sorry you feel that we are arrogant, but I assure you that is not the case. We hold to the inerrancy of all of scripture and the authority of the Holy Spirit given to those who wrote the canon of books we call the Holy Bible. The ELCA does not see the authority in scriptures and therefore the synod is IN MY OPINION apostate. Now does that mean I think that regular lay people who belong to that synod are apostate? No. I think that they are being misled though. The recent story out of Chicago tells me that the ELCA is only interested in gaining favor with human beings not in preaching the word to a lost world.

Again this is my opinion not a staunch fact. But I do think that many here share some of my opinion. This recent news will change things and hopefully the LCMS will pull away from any desire for unity with the ELCA until they put away their foolishness.

I belive in my doctrine, I belive I'm right but I also belive that ultimatly I have to be wrong about some things because there are too many things and I also realize that I am not perfect.



I know that about you, and I admit that I may be bias to what I've seen here and in my community. However from just what I've seen here I want nothing to do with it.

But what I do know is that I like spending my time with God. In worship, in prayer, and in song. I don't just do it cause I have to I do it cause I want to. I'm trying to learn to enjoy the word a little better but I'm working at it and when approached from the right attitude it can be very enjoyable.[/quote]

[Lupinus]

And who said you couldn't enjoy worship?
No one said oyu couldn't enjoy worship. I enjoy it every Sunday (ok, most Sundays I enjoy it lol). But enjoying it is a nice bonus. If your motivation for going to a particular church has to do with fun rather then hearing the word of God you have some soul searching to do. We have a big fun nondenom church around here. Knwo the number one reason I hear from most people who go? It's fun! We have so much fun!

Well, sure, I have fun at church. But I go to hear the word of God, I go to the church I go to because I agree with their doctrine, having fun doesn't figure in.

As was said, I go elsewhere for my entertainment and fun.

[Confess]

Two "wrongs" don't make a right :) ...I did edit the post. I don't believe women should be pastors either. The point I was trying to make is how far is the ELCA willing to go?
I have not read all the posts on this thread, wish I could.

I just want to make one point.

Christ is married to the Church, she IS unfaithful. What one may deem heretical to the point of leaving the church is different to the person standing next to him/her.

For me, the ELCA left the faith even before it merged to become the ELCA. For another person, the ELCA is the most faithful church out there.

It is a hard situation because most in the ELCA still hold to all the creeds which are the foundation of our faith. Yet even those of us who do believe in upholding what our Historic Lutheran Confessions say still do sin in other areas of our life. Some of us curse in front of our children, some of us humiliate or ridicule our children or spouses, some have secret sexual sins while others have problems telling the truth in love or are very legalistic.

Either way, we are apart of the Church, and we all need to make use of private absolution regularly as well as pray for our neighbor.

[Luther073082]

I have a question, why do I have to "hear" the word of God? I've bought this cool book called a bible and I can read it myself, and I do. . .

I go to church for serveral reasons. One is to approach God in worship. Another is to spend time with God, which I do enjoy. Another is for the Eucharist. I simpily stated that they had a good time and I was jumped all over because "worship isn't about fun". I never said it was, I said that they had fun worshipping in that crazy non-denominational church that I'm sure you think is fully of heresies. Guess what people it is fun. It feels great to know you are forgiven, it is fun to spend time with a God you love. Its fun to hear a sermon that teaches us new prospectives on God. And you know its fun to be in full fellowship with your brothers and sisters in christ and share a meal with them WITHOUT excluding someone because they havn't joined your particular church. The bible says the person needs to examine themselves, its not my job to do it for them. If I examine another person its called judging which is reserved only for God. The only person I'm allowed to judge is me.

And I wasn't saying the ELCA necessary belives in the inerrancy of the bible. They do offically; but I'm having a problem with their actions myself. Even though this is non-binding and its just someone saying to the bishops "lighten up" it is still step in the wrong direction. However the baptists will tell you that the bible is inerrant, the pentacostals will too. . . So will many other churchs. What makes you think that you are correct on every matter. This is where the arrogence comes in, I think I am right on all individual matters but as a person of wisdom I know that I must be wrong on some of them.

[Melethiel]

If I didn't think the Lutheran church is correct on every matter, I wouldn't be Lutheran. Simple as that.

[Confess]

I have a question, why do I have to "hear" the word of God? I've bought this cool book called a bible and I can read it myself, and I do. . .

I go to church for serveral reasons. One is to approach God in worship. Another is to spend time with God, which I do enjoy. Another is for the Eucharist. I simpily stated that they had a good time and I was jumped all over because "worship isn't about fun". I never said it was, I said that they had fun worshipping in that crazy non-denominational church that I'm sure you think is fully of heresies. Guess what people it is fun. It feels great to know you are forgiven, it is fun to spend time with a God you love. Its fun to hear a sermon that teaches us new prospectives on God. And you know its fun to be in full fellowship with your brothers and sisters in christ and share a meal with them WITHOUT excluding someone because they havn't joined your particular church. The bible says the person needs to examine themselves, its not my job to do it for them. If I examine another person its called judging which is reserved only for God. The only person I'm allowed to judge is me.

And I wasn't saying the ELCA necessary belives in the inerrancy of the bible. They do offically; but I'm having a problem with their actions myself. Even though this is non-binding and its just someone saying to the bishops "lighten up" it is still step in the wrong direction. However the baptists will tell you that the bible is inerrant, the pentacostals will too. . . So will many other churchs. What makes you think that you are correct on every matter. This is where the arrogence comes in, I think I am right on all individual matters but as a person of wisdom I know that I must be wrong on some of them.
Luther 07...
Find me one person other then Christ who was not instructed in the faith.

You won't find one. We all need to hear the Word of God by those who are called to preach because Jesus commanded it and God has always upheld this thinking even BEFORE the Bible was put together.

Faith comes by hearing, which means that our faith is strengthened by going to Worship. This is God doing something for you. Forgiveness is found in corporate confession and absolution as well as in the Sacraments which also strengthens your faith and is yet another thing that God does for you. Because God is doing all this for you, it is called Divine Worship. Worship is not about what we feel or like or desire. It is about our understanding that we are weak, miserable sinners who cannot be forgiven by any other means then through what God has done for us. We thank Him, we praise Him, yet our thankfulness and praises are still but filthy rags to Him. The only good thing is the forgiveness that covers us through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

To ever think or believe that we don't need to goto church is to reject that you are in need of forgiveness.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

It feels great to know you are forgiven

And guess what? Rarely do you ever heard words of absolution in an evangelical church! But in a Lutheran divine service, you hear them each and every time.

it is fun to spend time with a God you love.

And in an evangelical service, you're not so much spending time with God as spending time with pop-psychology, self-help, take-the-initiative, self-actualizing nonsense with a Christian glaze.

Its fun to hear a sermon that teaches us new prospectives on God.

Funny. I rarely go to an evangelical service and hear about God. I go there and I hear things I can do to improve my marriage, or my finances, or my attitude, or my parenting skills. Rarely do I hear anything about God, and never do I hear anything approaching serious theology.

And you know its fun to be in full fellowship with your brothers and sisters in christ and share a meal with them WITHOUT excluding someone because they havn't joined your particular church.

Too bad you can only share the blessed sacrament once a month. What grace denied to the children of God!

[DaSeminarian]

I have a question, why do I have to "hear" the word of God? I've bought this cool book called a bible and I can read it myself, and I do. . .



Ok and you understand that perfectly do you? A Pastor gives you proper exegesis on the Word of God that you can't get by just reading it yourself. That and Romans 10:17 states "Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God.


I go to church for serveral reasons. One is to approach God in worship. Another is to spend time with God, which I do enjoy. Another is for the Eucharist. I simpily stated that they had a good time and I was jumped all over because "worship isn't about fun". I never said it was, I said that they had fun worshipping in that crazy non-denominational church that I'm sure you think is fully of heresies. Guess what people it is fun. It feels great to know you are forgiven, it is fun to spend time with a God you love. Its fun to hear a sermon that teaches us new prospectives on God. And you know its fun to be in full fellowship with your brothers and sisters in christ and share a meal with them WITHOUT excluding someone because they havn't joined your particular church. The bible says the person needs to examine themselves, its not my job to do it for them. If I examine another person its called judging which is reserved only for God. The only person I'm allowed to judge is me.

And I wasn't saying the ELCA necessary belives in the inerrancy of the bible. They do offically; but I'm having a problem with their actions myself. Even though this is non-binding and its just someone saying to the bishops "lighten up" it is still step in the wrong direction. However the baptists will tell you that the bible is inerrant, the pentacostals will too. . . So will many other churchs. What makes you think that you are correct on every matter. This is where the arrogence comes in, I think I am right on all individual matters but as a person of wisdom I know that I must be wrong on some of them.


You are backpeddaling now and trying to save face. You came off on your previous posts with this whole having fun worshipping. I used to belong to a church in the ELCA so I know what it is they do. The difference between us and the Baptists and the Pentecostals is an understanding of how the Holy Spirit works. It is also how we understand the Sacraments. Pentecostals and Baptists do not see Communion as a sacrament, but as something we do to remember what Christ did on the cross. They are half right and half wrong. They forget that the Sacrament of the Altar gives us forgiveness of sins won on the Cross for us by Christ. They teach that in order to be saved you must speak in tongues (Pentecostals only). Baptists are a misnomer because they have the name, but they don't teach that Baptism saves.

I know by scripture that I have it right. I am not trying to slap you in the face with this but showing you that your ideals of "worship" are misguided. You want worship to be this "personal" thing, but it is more than that. It is so much more corporate than you think.

So if your message is to tell me to get over myself then I think you should take your advice.

I think that people need to get it in their heads God doesn't need us to worship him and that really going to church is about being served by God instead. We go to church to hear the word and receive the sacrament to receive forgiveness of sins and not to have a happy-clappy experience. It is not about feeling good but that is what you are intimating in your posts.

[Luther073082]

Luther 07...
Find me one person other then Christ who was not instructed in the faith.

You won't find one. We all need to hear the Word of God by those who are called to preach because Jesus commanded it and God has always upheld this thinking even BEFORE the Bible was put together.

Faith comes by hearing, which means that our faith is strengthened by going to Worship. This is God doing something for you. Forgiveness is found in corporate confession and absolution as well as in the Sacraments which also strengthens your faith and is yet another thing that God does for you. Because God is doing all this for you, it is called Divine Worship. Worship is not about what we feel or like or desire. It is about our understanding that we are weak, miserable sinners who cannot be forgiven by any other means then through what God has done for us. We thank Him, we praise Him, yet our thankfulness and praises are still but filthy rags to Him. The only good thing is the forgiveness that covers us through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

To ever think or believe that we don't need to goto church is to reject that you are in need of forgiveness.

And I've disagreed with the above paragraph how? I simpily said worship is fun. . . I never said it was all about us, but it is fun and all I said was they had a good time going to the non-denominational church. Where by the way they received forgivness just like in any other decent Christian church. Wow its the same forgivness, who would have thunk?

And besides you don't need to go to church to receive forgivness, we get it automatically by our faith. To say you have to go to church to receive forgivness is rejecting the concept of faith alone.

If I didn't think the Lutheran church is correct on every matter, I wouldn't be Lutheran. Simple as that.

Mel> What if you belived that it was correct on most matters and its the closest thing you have to a church which represents your beliefs?

And saying that the Lutheran church is correct on every matter is basically turning us into the RCC. We belive we are correct on all individual matters but as wise and imperfect people of God one should know that they are not right about everything.

Ok too much to reply to

Too bad you can only share the blessed sacrament once a month. What grace denied to the children of God! I'm sorry because I receive it once a week, sometimes twice. . .

I think that people need to get it in their heads God doesn't need us to worship him and that really going to church is about being served by God instead. We go to church to hear the word and receive the sacrament to receive forgiveness of sins and not to have a happy-clappy experience. It is not about feeling good but that is what you are intimating in your posts.

What are you talking about? We have a traditional service, I earlier advocated for both. . .

And I'm sorry going to church DOES make you feel good. I never said that is what it was about but that should be the effect should it not? Should you not feel good learning about God? Should you not feel good receiving absolution? Should you not feel good singing praises?

[Confess]

And I've disagreed with the above paragraph how? I simpily said worship is fun. . . I never said it was all about us, but it is fun and all I said was they had a good time going to the non-denominational church. Where by the way they received forgivness just like in any other decent Christian church. Wow its the same forgivness, who would have thunk?

And besides you don't need to go to church to receive forgivness, we get it automatically by our faith. To say you have to go to church to receive forgivness is rejecting the concept of faith alone.

I was simply making a statement on worship which you have not addressed. And as for the non-denominational church ... Who are we to know that they believe since they hold to no affiliation/creed/or confession? Being non-denominational is a vague term that can mean they believe anything. For all we know they could reject the Trinity which would mean that they do not receive the same forgiveness of sins since they do not worship the True God.

Also, being non-denominational usually means that they do not take the Lord's Supper for the forgiveness of their sins and very few non-denoms practice any kind of confession of sins since most do not recognize that they are corrupted by sin. A clear example can be found with 99% of the Televangelists who are non-denoms.

[Luther073082]

Ok let me clarify this. . .

I said that my pastor's wife and the women that went to the non-denominational church "had fun". I did not say having fun was the point of worship (Although I think it is the effect)

I think the arrogence of the LCMS is beliving that they are the only ones who belive in the inerrency of the word. Just saying that doesn't make you right because I can go around and find 20 churchs with different doctrines that all belive in the inerrancy of the word. And you guys could have a good old time calling eachother heretics.

For me I repeat that on each individual issue I belive I am right. However on the collective whole being a wise person of God and knowing that I am not perfect I must also realize that I must be wrong on some issues. If I was not then I would be perfect which is not a state attainable by any human being or church body.

I was simply making a statement on worship which you have not addressed. And as for the non-denominational church ... Who are we to know that they believe since they hold to no affiliation/creed/or confession? Being non-denominational is a vague term that can mean they believe anything. For all we know they could reject the Trinity which would mean that they do not receive the same forgiveness of sins since they do not worship the True God.

If they reject the trinity are they considered Christians? Most would say no and I would tend to agree to an extent. No we are not in fellowship with any church that rejects the trinity.

However for me I am not so caught up on doctrine that it clouds my vision of the unity of the body of Christ. And like it or not the LCMS and WELS likes to sever itself from the body of Christ by simpily not allowing fellowship with the rest of the body. The RCC does the same thing.

I am not going to join a church that absolutly refuses to talk to or have communing fellowship with other Christians. To do so would be rejecting Christs prayer for unity within his body and also rejecting Paul's advise that all Christians should examine themselves and instead to take up a position of judgementalism over other people because I get some crazy idea by twisting God's word that I'm allowed to do that.

Unfortunutly the ELCA is going off the liberal deep-end so I may just have to leave them as well. I do not know where I will go if I have to leave. Perhaps UMC, maybe a good non-denominational congregation.

Edit: Oh and communial or private confession is not required to receive forgivness. . . Only faith. communal confession does not actually buy us this forgiveness as we have already been granted it by faith. Communal confession instead REMINDS us of our sins and reminds of the forgivness we have received. Saying it is necessary to receive forgivness is to belive that faith alone does not buy us salvation.

[Melethiel]

Where by the way they received forgivness just like in any other decent Christian church.
I've never been to any nondenom church that had Confession/Absolution....
And besides you don't need to go to church to receive forgivness, we get it automatically by our faith. To say you have to go to church to receive forgivness is rejecting the concept of faith alone.
I would suggest reading what the Confessions have to say about Absolution. This shows a misunderstanding both of Confession, and of Sola Fide.
And saying that the Lutheran church is correct on every matter is basically turning us into the RCC. We belive we are correct on all individual matters but as wise and imperfect people of God one should know that they are not right about everything.
Not so. I believe the Confessions are correct because they agree with Scripture. RCC say they are right just because.
And I'm sorry going to church DOES make you feel good. I never said that is what it was about but that should be the effect should it not? Should you not feel good learning about God? Should you not feel good receiving absolution? Should you not feel good singing praises?
Of course. But feeling good should be the LAST thing on the priority list.

[RayJGentry]

Just because a church is ELCA doesn't mean they automatically focus on the wrong things in worship. Many of the more conservative churches in the Midwest focus on worshiping properly. I would not attend the churches I do/have if this were not the case. However, the posters are right who have said that, when it comes down to it, worship is nothing about how much we enjoy it. Worship is a congregation placing itself in the proper place before God. Our place before God is that we are sinners. That should be heard every service. The second is that we are redeemed through Grace through Faith through Christ's Death and Resurrection.

[Melethiel]

I think the arrogence of the LCMS is beliving that they are the only ones who belive in the inerrency of the word.
I'm sorry, I must have missed this. Where was this stated?

[Confess]

I think the arrogence of the LCMS is beliving that they are the only ones who belive in the inerrency of the word.

Calling people names does not make your case. We are all sinners in need of a Savior. To get defensive and resort to name calling just because people are stating what is clearly taught in the Bible makes no sense.

Being Lutheran is more then just believing in the inerrency, it is also practicing what is taught within the inerrant Bible which none of us (including yourself) can do perfectly which is why we all need private absolution and prayer for our neighbor as well as regularly attending Divine Worship. We are all weak.

[Confess]

Just because a church is ELCA doesn't mean they automatically focus on the wrong things in worship.

This is very true. I have been to many LCMS congregations that are more liberal then most ELCA congregations. With that said, I think the topic is on the ELCA in general and not individual congregations.

[LilLamb219]

Sounds to me like you have a little attitude against the LCMS and WELS yourself.


That's what it sounds like to me too. :doh:

[JimfromOhio]

In my own opinion, its not really about the "denomination" itself but rather leaders who leads the denominations and local churches. Unconfessed sin to the pastors is an automatic disqualification in the eyes of God whether we know it or not. The only authority any pastor or elder has is the Word of God. When you step beyond the Word of God, you’ve overstepped the bounds of your authority.

I have learned to join a local church that have a STRONG pastorship that will make sure the Church will stay pure. I know pastors will never be sinless but they can live in holy lives according to God's will. By holiness does not mean they will be sinless but they can be blameless. Their roles as a spiritual leaders takes work and requires the commitment of their heart, mind and body.

The pastors have been recognized by the whole congregation as leaders of integrity and trustworthiness--men who have made commitment to themselves and to God that they are to serve the church by following as best they can the principles of God's Word and giving leadership and direction of following that Word, no matter what the consequences or where it will lead.

Homosexuals or any other sexual orientation people are welcomed in church but they can't be leaders. Would we follow their examples? Not I.

[Confess]

Edit: Oh and communial or private confession is not required to receive forgivness. . . Only faith. communal confession does not actually buy us this forgiveness as we have already been granted it by faith. Communal confession instead REMINDS us of our sins and reminds of the forgivness we have received. Saying it is necessary to receive forgivness is to belive that faith alone does not buy us salvation.

It is not required but is beneficial for your faith which is what the Lutheran Confessions and Bible try very hard to illustrate. It is like eating healthy is beneficial for your health. To reject private absolution or to shrug it off is not beneficial for anyone.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Edit: Oh and communial or private confession is not required to receive forgivness. . . Only faith. communal confession does not actually buy us this forgiveness as we have already been granted it by faith. Communal confession instead REMINDS us of our sins and reminds of the forgivness we have received. Saying it is necessary to receive forgivness is to belive that faith alone does not buy us salvation.

Untrue. Both James and John state clearly that from confession comes the forgiveness of sins.

You're confusing forensic justification with progressional sanctification.

When we are granted faith through God's grace, God in turn legally declares us righteous on the basis of the faith.

But though we remain completely righteous as a legal matter before God so long as we continue in faith, we are still internally damaged by sins. We need to progress in righteousness so that our actual status meets our legal status. And it is this that confession brings- the elimination of sins as we walk toward the end of santification and total righteousness. (as I side note, just as in forensic justification by faith alone our sins are credited to Christ on the cross and Christ's righteousness is credited to us, so too in confession our actual sinfulness is given over to Christ and in the Holy Eucharist Christ comes continually into us)

[Luther073082]

It is not required but is beneficial for your faith which is what the Lutheran Confessions and Bible try very hard to illustrate. It is like eating healthy is beneficial for your health. To reject private absolution or to shrug it off is not beneficial for anyone.

I'm not shrugging it off I'm simpily stating that I think they will be ok if they miss it (communal confession) one week to fellowship with other belivers. . .

And yes I have admited to being bias against the LCMS and WELS based on how I've been treated on these forums and how the local LCMS congregations treat all other churches in the community. So yes I've gathered an impression of the LCMS and WELS as being very arrogent churchs based on how I've been treated by their members. On the other hand I should admit there are beacons of light with the churchs, my dance partner was and is LCMS however she goes to one of those dreaded LCMS congregations that allows open communion.

I never said the point of worship was to have fun. For about the 5th time if you go back to the post that started this I simpily stated that they went to a non-denominational church and they had fun. That is not an argument that the point of worship is to have fun.

Edit: But though we remain completely righteous as a legal matter before God so long as we continue in faith, we are still internally damaged by sins. We need to progress in righteousness so that our actual status meets our legal status. And it is this that confession brings- the elimination of sins as we walk toward the end of santification and total righteousness. (as I side note, just as in forensic justification by faith alone our sins are credited to Christ on the cross and Christ's righteousness is credited to us, so too in confession our actual sinfulness is given over to Christ and in the Holy Eucharist Christ comes continually into us)

Of course we need to confess our sins, its the only healthy thing to do. Doing so humbles you to realize that you are a sinner. If you don't remind yourself then you stand a chance of being lost. That is again what I said that I'm not rejecting confession either. I am rejecting the silly idea that these women shouldn't go to this church because its not a Lutheran church.

[QuiltAngel]

So standing firm in our faith is arrogance? Not allowing others to sway us is arrogance? Not conforming to the current agenda of today's world is arrogance? :scratch:

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

So standing firm in our faith is arrogance? Not allowing others to sway us is arrogance? Not conforming to the current agenda of today's world is arrogance? :scratch:
Yup. We're crusty old Germans. Accusing us of arrogance is like shooting fish in a barrel.

That said, high church, confessional Lutherans are totally and completely right.

[Luther073082]

yes believing you are right on every topic as a collective whole is arrogence.

If you are right about everything would that not make you perfect?

[Confess]

Luther 07...
You are extremely defensive, repeating yourself often as if we did not hear you the first 4 or more times. I never once said anything about worship being fun, yet you seem to think I am always talking about it.

And as for your accusations of LCMS and WELS people being arrogant. I just have to say that you are being very arrogant in saying that. You are no different that we are, we are not better then you nor are you better then we are. We all have our failings. The quicker you understand that, the quicker you will find yourself tolerating others for their sins.

[PreachersWife2004]

I'll gladly admit that I'm arrogant. If I believed that something was untrue in the WELS doctrine, I would not be WELS, plain and simple.

I think one CAN be right in all things spiritual. If their doctrine is from the bible, how can it be wrong? So many churches base their doctrine on man's thought and logic. So many churches choose to preach only the gospel and not the law. I've found that Lutheran churches, both LCMS and WELS, do an excellent job at preaching both.

THAT'S what I want out of church. I don't want to attend a church that will water down the law and make the gospel about men rather than Jesus. Religion that caters to man's wishes is destined for hell, and I don't want anything to do with it.

So yeah, count me arrogant and proud of it, too.!!

[Luther073082]

Luther 07...
You are extremely defensive, repeating yourself often as if we did not hear you the first 4 or more times. I never once said anything about worship being fun, yet you seem to think I am always talking about it.

Then why where people always on the attack. Read other people's posts they kept telling me over and over and over again that the point to worship wasn't fun. If people where paying attention then why was it that I constantly got messages acting like I was saying the opposite. You may not have but others did.


And as for your accusations of LCMS and WELS people being arrogant. I just have to say that you are being very arrogant in saying that. You are no different that we are, we are not better then you nor are you better then we are. We all have our failings. The quicker you understand that, the quicker you will find yourself tolerating others for their sins.

I would call it judging more then arrogence. A sin none the less . . .

And I'm sorry if I'm judging you poorly but for every good experience I've had with the LCMS and WELS I've had three bad ones.

[PreachersWife2004]

...I am rejecting the silly idea that these women shouldn't go to this church because its not a Lutheran church.

I've asked this question many times before, but, if someone claims to be Lutheran, what would the draw be to want to go to a non-Lutheran church...especially "just for fun" or just to "see what it's like"? I've never understood that. You can learn about other churches without giving up your Sunday Lutheran worship.

[Luther073082]

I've asked this question many times before, but, if someone claims to be Lutheran, what would the draw be to want to go to a non-Lutheran church...especially "just for fun" or just to "see what it's like"? I've never understood that. You can learn about other churches without giving up your Sunday Lutheran worship.

Its a lot easier to share fellowship with people if you experience going to their church. If you always go to Lutheran churchs and absolutly refuse anything different you sequester yourself away from a much broader Christian world

I'll gladly admit that I'm arrogant. If I believed that something was untrue in the WELS doctrine, I would not be WELS, plain and simple.

I think one CAN be right in all things spiritual. If their doctrine is from the bible, how can it be wrong? So many churches base their doctrine on man's thought and logic. So many churches choose to preach only the gospel and not the law. I've found that Lutheran churches, both LCMS and WELS, do an excellent job at preaching both.

THAT'S what I want out of church. I don't want to attend a church that will water down the law and make the gospel about men rather than Jesus. Religion that caters to man's wishes is destined for hell, and I don't want anything to do with it.

So yeah, count me arrogant and proud of it, too.!!

I don't think any man or church can be 100% correct on doctrine. Here is the thing you have to remember, I can find 20 different denominations that say their beliefs are based on 100% inerrancy of the bible. So why in the world would you think that you are the one that belives in the real inerrancy while the others belive in fake inerrancy?

I have disagreements with the ELCA doctrines and teachings and most of them are more towards the conservative side and the LCMS. The reason I won't join the LCMS is I feel like confessional Lutherans sequester themselves away from other Christians.

Because honestly I could very easily go LCMS if they where a more open congregation.

[PreachersWife2004]

Please show me where other denoms claim that their doctrines are all from the bible.

Even the Catholic church acknowledges that some of its doctrines are based on tradition and not the scripture.

But Lutheran doctrine CAN claim it is entirely scripturally correct. For every doctrine, we have a scriptural backing.

Oh, and I don't feel sequestered at all. I've never gone to another denom church on a Sunday, but yet I know quite a bit about other churches and what they believe, and I do have plenty of friends who are not Lutheran.

[Confess]

Then why where people always on the attack. Read other people's posts they kept telling me over and over and over again that the point to worship wasn't fun. If people where paying attention then why was it that I constantly got messages acting like I was saying the opposite. You may not have but others did.
That is fine, but nearly everyone of your responces to me restated this point as if I said something about. I agree with the others that having a good experience/feeling etc. is not a reason to worship God for that is a reliance on ones sinful self rather then on what God has done and continues to do for you in worship. I do agree with you that having a good time rather then having a bad time makes it easier to worship since having a bad time usually means that bad things are happening and can be a distraction which is not fruitful, but I guess I am not seeing the criticalness that you are seeing in the posts of others on this forum.



call it judging more then arrogence. A sin none the less . . .

And I'm sorry if I'm judging you poorly but for every good experience I've had with the LCMS and WELS I've had three bad ones.
Well, the only suggestion that I have for you is to try to be a good witness to those who have offended you. Forgiveness and charity goes longer then mean-spiritedness and quick tempers.

No ELCA, non-denom, LCMS or whatever will always communicate in a way that will please all people all the time. Sometimes we have to be thick skinned and other times we have to show them the love of Christ through our actions. That is just life. You are not going to find a majority of non-denoms or ELCA folk being more pious then other denominations, we are all the same, we all say things we shouldn't this side of heaven.

I know for a fact that there will be other LCMSers and WELS people that you will meet that will impress you. It just takes time.

[JimfromOhio]

From an outsider's view who is considering in selecting a "Lutheran" Church in my area to worship.

Its not about the specific Lutheran denomination but rather how they view their doctrines. We have to remember that denominational doctrines make denominational members, not Christians. Individual denominations also have formed over very subtle theological differences. Most denominations share common beliefs in the major aspects of the Christian faith, while differing in many secondary doctrines.We all should understand that a particular denomination's theology is pure truth simply because only the Bible is truth while doctrines are taught by man. I am a Christian FIRST. Secondary is the doctrines I rely on based on the Holy Spirit's conviction. Of all three that I have studied (Of the various Lutherans denominations (LCMS, ELCA, WELS), I like all three for various reasons. For example, I don't accept LCMS's and WELS's "Closed Communion" while at the same time I don't accept ELCA's liberal views of certain areas. I can live with them even thought I may not accept them.

Regarding ELCA's issue of "Homosexual" pastors, I will not worship any ELCA local church that have such pastors on board. I know one ELCA's is coming up with a policy of their own of the issue (excluding homosexual from serving).

[Confess]

I don't think any man or church can be 100% correct on doctrine. Here is the thing you have to remember, I can find 20 different denominations that say their beliefs are based on 100% inerrancy of the bible. So why in the world would you think that you are the one that belives in the real inerrancy while the others belive in fake inerrancy?

Like I stated earlier, the Church (the Bride of Christ) is unfaithful, but He continues to love her, is faithful to her and forgives her.

Does this mean that no one can be 100% correct on doctrinal matters? I don't think so. That would mean that Paul could not be trusted, nor any of the Apostles etc. This would mean that the earliest churches were corrupted from the time Christ ascended into heaven till now.

That wouldn't make sense when you think about it.

So if God were really God, able to do anything He wishes, then surely He is able to keep His teachings pure and uncorruptable SOMEWHERE on this earth.

So the only way to find that is to find out what a church believes which means that we don't just hear the words "inerrancy" and believe that they are teaching true doctrine, rather we examine what they teach and practice and hold them up against the Bible to see if what they teach is true or false.

The problems with non-denoms are that they do not like to be held to any particular teaching or creed. They enjoy their freedom to believe what they will all the while they call their faith the "True Faith".

[Luther073082]

Please show me where other denoms claim that their doctrines are all from the bible.

Even the Catholic church acknowledges that some of its doctrines are based on tradition and not the scripture.

But Lutheran doctrine CAN claim it is entirely scripturally correct. For every doctrine, we have a scriptural backing.

Oh, and I don't feel sequestered at all. I've never gone to another denom church on a Sunday, but yet I know quite a bit about other churches and what they believe, and I do have plenty of friends who are not Lutheran.


Ok here is one person. . . he even belives that Lutherans are heretics. I remember reading his junk and correcting him on a inaccuracies of the Lutheran church. Be warned he teaches what I consider heresy and he makes untrue statements about Lutheran churches

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/

oh and here is this

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Lutherans/whats_wrong_with_the_lutheran_religion.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Lutherans/lutheran_lies.htm

This is what I mean though. He will tell you the bible is 100% inerrant and then say that we are all the heretics. And I'm sure the southern baptists believe the bible is inerrant too.

I'm sorry but a lot of denoms say they belive in the inerrancy of the bible. I disagree with their interpretation of the scripture but I'm not going to say that I'm automatically right or always right.

Confess> Maybe, but I have my doubts. Doctrines are written by men based on how they read the bible. I can't rely on a doctrine of a man. And since I belive no man is perfect in any way then I can't belive that any one person in the entire earth has a 100% correct doctrine. Maybe I'm wrong and someone out there is 100% correct but I just have my doubts.

[Confess]

From an outsider's view who is considering in selecting a "Lutheran" Church in my area to worship.

Its not about the specific Lutheran denomination but rather how they view their doctrines. We have to remember that denominational doctrines make denominational members, not Christians.
This is a grossly false statement. :o

I first believed in Christ apart of membership because of the Holy Spirit and became Lutheran because I examined all the other denominations and found the doctrines of the Bible to be best represented in the historic Lutheran Confessions.

We ALL are first Christians because it is only through God that we have faith. We then ascribe to a church that best represents the teachings of the Bible to the best of our understanding.



Individual denominations also have formed over very subtle theological differences.
Not so. The chasm between Catholics and Lutherans is huge. One believing that Jesus did not do everything on the cross to save us and the other believing that Jesus did it all on the cross. That difference alone is the difference between heaven and hell.

only the Bible is truth while doctrines are taught by man.
Doctrines are the truths found in the Bible. An example: Jesus is the Christ. That is doctrine which the Bible clearly teaches, not man.

I am a Christian FIRST. Secondary is the doctrines I rely on based on the Holy Spirit's conviction. To be a Christian you must first have faith in a doctrine, that doctrine is that Jesus Christ is your Savior.




Of all three that I have studied (Of the various Lutherans denominations (LCMS, ELCA, WELS), I like all three for various reasons. For example, I don't accept LCMS's and WELS's "Closed Communion" while at the same time I don't accept ELCA's liberal views of certain areas. I can live with them even thought I may not accept them.

Regarding ELCA's issue of "Homosexual" pastors, I will not worship any ELCA local church that have such pastors on board. I know one ELCA's is coming up with a policy of their own of the issue (excluding homosexual from serving).

This is a big contradiction. You say you don't accept closed communion of the Lord's Supper yet you practice a closed fellowship based on the ELCA's policy on homosexuality.

Closed communion is a practice where people who believe the same thing are in fellowship with each other specifically at the Lord's Table. This is something you do not agree with. This means that you would partake of the Lord's Supper with homosexuals and those who advocate homosexual unions, realation, pastors etc. YET you refuse to worship in a setting that allows homosexual pastors, unions etc.

[Confess]

Confess> Maybe, but I have my doubts. Doctrines are written by men based on how they read the bible. I can't rely on a doctrine of a man. And since I belive no man is perfect in any way then I can't belive that any one person in the entire earth has a 100% correct doctrine. Maybe I'm wrong and someone out there is 100% correct but I just have my doubts.

Everything you believe is a doctrine. You cannot say that doctrines are written by men IF they can be found in the Bible. For if you do believe in a doctrine that is not founded on the Bible, then you are worhsipping a god of your own creation.

As far as having doubts, well that is normal. We all doubt people. That doesn't make other people wrong, it just means that either we do not have the wisdom or knowledge of the Word as they do or that we have found error in their teaching based on what God has revealed to us in the Word.

[Luther073082]

Confess> thats my point, I doubt all people and the complete truth of their doctrines based on the bible. I doubt the ELCA, LCMS, and the WELS on the complete truth of their doctrines. But at the same time I also doubt the complete truth of my own doctrine because I am human. Yes a doctrine is found in the bible but it all depends on how one reads the bible. . . and I can't claim that my way or anyone else's way of reading the bible is 100% correct and free from error.

As I posted those links above they are from a guy that belives in 100% inerracy of the bible. But yet he will tell you that all Lutherans are heretics. Now I could probably list off the mistakes he's made and cite scripture however he'd probably come back with more scripture and eventually for two people that know the scriptures equally this just keeps going back and forth until they both realize that "Your way of reading it is not the way I read it."

With the communion thing you have to understand that we don't belive we have to agree on everything to share the Lord's supper. To me believing Jesus Christ is Lord, God and savior is enough of an agreement to share his supper.

[Confess]

Ok here is one person. . . he even belives that Lutherans are heretics. I remember reading his junk and correcting him on a inaccuracies of the Lutheran church. Be warned he teaches what I consider heresy and he makes untrue statements about Lutheran churches

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/

oh and here is this

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Lutherans/whats_wrong_with_the_lutheran_religion.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Lutherans/lutheran_lies.htm

This is what I mean though. He will tell you the bible is 100% inerrant and then say that we are all the heretics. And I'm sure the southern baptists believe the bible is inerrant too.

I'm sorry but a lot of denoms say they belive in the inerrancy of the bible. I disagree with their interpretation of the scripture but I'm not going to say that I'm automatically right or always right.

Confess> Maybe, but I have my doubts. Doctrines are written by men based on how they read the bible. I can't rely on a doctrine of a man. And since I belive no man is perfect in any way then I can't belive that any one person in the entire earth has a 100% correct doctrine. Maybe I'm wrong and someone out there is 100% correct but I just have my doubts.
This site is funny!

Here is a quote attempting to illustrate how heretical the Lutheran faith is:
"Q. What does Baptism give? What good is it?


A. It gives the forgiveness of sins, redeems from death and the Devil, gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, just as God's words and promises declare."
-Martin Luther

This is heresy! The thief on the cross was never baptized, yet Jesus promised him paradise that day.

Where does the Bible say that the thief was never baptized? This is an assumption many people make and are in error. No where does the Bible say that the thief was or wasn't baptized, rather the Bible shows that Jesus has the power of salvation which he shows when he promised salvation to the thief who believed in Him. Lutherans teach that Baptism has the power of salvation which is why we baptize an infant asap and yet we do not baptize an adult asap because we preach, teach and believe that one can be saved by hearing the Word. So when an adult comes to faith, they are first instructed in the faith and then baptized.

This type of false doctrine comes when people do not look at the Lutheran references to Scripture which teaches us what we believe.

[PreachersWife2004]

I am looking for specific church "confessions" that state as such, not some raving lunatic.

[QuiltAngel]

With the communion thing you have to understand that we don't belive we have to agree on everything to share the Lord's supper.

We do understand that is what the ELCA and you believe, we don't agree with it.

[Confess]

Confess> thats my point, I doubt all people and the complete truth of their doctrines based on the bible. I doubt the ELCA, LCMS, and the WELS on the complete truth of their doctrines. But at the same time I also doubt the complete truth of my own doctrine because I am human. Yes a doctrine is found in the bible but it all depends on how one reads the bible. . . and I can't claim that my way or anyone else's way of reading the bible is 100% correct and free from error.

As I posted those links above they are from a guy that belives in 100% inerracy of the bible. But yet he will tell you that all Lutherans are heretics. Now I could probably list off the mistakes he's made and cite scripture however he'd probably come back with more scripture and eventually for two people that know the scriptures equally this just keeps going back and forth until they both realize that "Your way of reading it is not the way I read it."

With the communion thing you have to understand that we don't belive we have to agree on everything to share the Lord's supper. To me believing Jesus Christ is Lord, God and savior is enough of an agreement to share his supper.
I understand your point. It is easy to see things like that. You rightly acknowledge the sinful condition of us all, yet you seem to deny that God is all powerful, able to keep His teachings pure.

God cannot keep His teachings pure all the while have every single person on earth holding to error.

Paul had his sinful problems, yet kept the doctrines true. Our practices will be tainted, but our faith in the Truth can be pure.

Edit: About communion: I just wanted to reassert the point that in order to be consistant about communion, you must also be willing to worship with anyone regardless of their faith/denomination.

If you can commune with anyone who calls themself a Christian like the Mormons, JWs, ELCA Lutherans who believe that God is a woman etc., then you cannot object to any of their other teachings because you have lowered the standard of fellowship to just calling yourself a "christian".

[JimfromOhio]

This is a grossly false statement. :o

I first believed in Christ apart of membership because of the Holy Spirit and became Lutheran because I examined all the other denominations and found the doctrines of the Bible to be best represented in the historic Lutheran Confessions.

We ALL are first Christians because it is only through God that we have