Denominations; the unlearned, blind leading the blind.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus: :hug:

The foundation for this title is found in Isaiah 29:

Where it it written " the Lord has poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep". #10

And book of all is delivered to two groups, Learned and unlearned. Where scripture: is learned by one, but the other learns precepts of men. Now Jews learn and quote the scriptures, but without Jesus; the key to Knowledge, the word is sealed unto them.

Now my point of discourse in this thread: is men should seek God; and God is found in the word, for God is the word, and the word became flesh. st.John. 1;1 &14.

If you seek God or to know God: only in scriptures is God found, and denominations and men only have interpretations. And true interpretation is of the spirit.
And the spirit dwells in men of faith. Not in buildings made of mans hands.

The faithful should believe not doctrines not first taught by Jesus or his disciples.

The question comes down to, where is your faith rooted; in doctrines and precepts of men? Or in God and his word.

Isaiah 29;13. " forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips they do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of man."

These two scriptures speak to my point. :)

Isaiah 29; 16. " Surely your turning things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's Clay: for the shall work say of him that made it, He made me not: or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?"

Brothers and sisters, hold fast unto God and his Word, which is God; And trust in Jesus alone as savior; and be not led astray with interpretations and doctrines of men.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless Christian Forum and all who use it. :wave:
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[plmarquette]

We all have to start some where ... Romans 10.8-9 ; 1 John 1.8-9 ...admitting we have a problem, and seeking He who can solve it ...

We assume or presume all were brought up as we were, all protestants and all Catholics are alike ... not the case

We think after the prayer of faith , picking up a bible is the solution ... it is not Romans 10.14-17 ... one is needed to teach, instruct, reveal, and discipline the new born

We forget about sanctification being a processess and all Christians are a work in progress ... Isaiah 48.10, Zechariah 13.8-9 embracing , enduring the refining fire of the Holy Spirit ...

We need to find some thing in common , then to edify , then to build up the faith of those around us, that in due season they might run and not grow weary ... for some will provide seed, others sow, others water, that God might give the increase... a process a family a body of believers

Many are seeking but do not know what they are looking for , where to find the Holy Spirit , evidence of faith , the power of the gospel, or understand the voice of God ...

Be patient ... be fruitfull ... James says without fruit , our faith is usless... James chapter 2 ... show by your words and day to day life how the gospel can be lived..for we are His epistle , open , to be read by all men

[annie1speed]

SOP, you may have found your spot. :)

I very much agree that we should use the Bible as our standard for living the Christian life.

We should not concern ourselves with denominations and commandments of men.

Not much debate from me here.

Annie

[Albion]

Where scripture: is learned by one, but the other learns precepts of men.

Now my point of discourse in this thread: is men should seek God; and God is found in the word, for God is the word, and the word became flesh. st.John. 1;1 &14.

If you seek God or to know God: only in scriptures is God found, and denominations and men only have interpretations.

Well, we're all interpret the Scriptures. It's not enough to say that what I think any part of it means is God speaking to me, whereas what that other fellow thinks it means is just a human interpretation. We all depend upon interpreting the scriptures. To the extent that we should not ADD anything to them as being necessary for salvation, I agree completely, but if the difference between denominations is only a matter of interpretation, everyone has one (denomination).

The faithful should believe not doctrines not first taught by Jesus or his disciples.

And what those doctrines are is a mainly a matter of interpreting scripture.

The question comes down to, where is your faith rooted; in doctrines and precepts of men? Or in God and his word.

God and his word. This still doesn't tell us much about denomination or whose interpretation is correct.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus::hug:

All those who have posted in this thread, have shown the spirit of God, and Knowledge therein. Forgive me for saying this; We Christians are the " Grafted vine" unto God. We are also the " wild Grapes" of Gods vineyard. And we are also even termed, the" Pollution of Gods inheritance". I apologize for these scriptural terms. which I can explain latter.

But I would like to interpret and all to Judge, Isaiah 29;10-12. KJV.

10.For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11.And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed.
12. And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying , read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

I shall give the abridged version interpretation. "Book" is the bible, or word.

Learned are Jews, unlearned Christians. the two who have the word.

Jews; only learn and repeat the word, But without Jesus to discern, it is sealed unto them, and can't discern.

Christians. are unlearned, for they remember or quote not Scriptures in Houses of God, but hear, I call " Church speak", or "sermons of men", which is well in Good of itself, but not God. So they read not for themselves, but have pastors and priest do it for them, then interpret.

One comment. God seeks a personal relationship with each and every man, to commune with each man, as if there were no other.

Any who Claims Jesus, and respectfully disagrees, I shall also praise them for their spirit of respect.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.
:hug::wave:

[rockytrails]

I disagree because i know why there must be denomination's.

The bibles teachings or doctrines is the very reason we must have
denomination's .
for example i am A WELS Lutheran because i honestly think they are the ones following Jesus teaching's .

Yet i know some are Baptist or "nondenominational " or methodist or catholic or what ever for the VERY same reason..


The bible itself tells us there must be theses differences it tells us to test the Spirits to see which are from God.


we test the difference in spirits according to Gods holy word.
to see if they are from God .
that is why i am a Wels Lutheran because I believe there are teaching the truth of the bible.
if at some future time they no longer teach the bible truths only then will i leave


www.whataboutjesus.com

[Spiritofprophecy]

I disagree because i know why there must be denomination's.

The bibles teachings or doctrines is the very reason we must have
denomination's .
for example i am A WELS Lutheran because i honestly think they are the ones following Jesus teaching's .

Yet i know some are Baptist or "nondenominational " or methodist or catholic or what ever for the VERY same reason..


The bible itself tells us there must be theses differences it tells us to test the Spirits to see which are from God.


we test the difference in spirits according to Gods holy word.
to see if they are from God .
that is why i am a Wels Lutheran because I believe there are teaching the truth of the bible.
if at some future time they no longer teach the bible truths only then will i leave


www.whataboutjesus.com
Greetings in the name Of Jesus:

I commend you for your repose and honor, and civility of manner.

I agree in part. your fundamental point that we need denominations. Gods words are, " my words shall not return unto me void, but shall accomplish that which I did intend." even the evil of the earth, is used to motivate man, to bring about Gods ends.

Example; the Holocaust and Hitlers persecution of the european jew, is what Motivated Jewish return unto Israel.

As far as denominations, being of God, God gave the authority unto them: Catholics were Kind of the Soldiers of the faith, during a troubled time. A Militaristic form of Christianity.

But as far as different doctrines all being right, I would have to agree also in part, as I also believe each doctrine of men, has a form of truth, but also false doctrines. But I think they all have vanity doctrines of men. And the Only pure doctrines is the Actual pure word. Which God promised to preserve.

I also believe these followers of many denominations are the " Wild grapes". and the Grafted vines; in comparison to Gods pure vine. They Are wild in nature, and have not foundation in choicest vines of God. ( a little paraphrasing there of parables.) we have religion of Choice today, man judges God, On what God should be Like. Contrary to the truth, That man should submit himself unto Gods will, and superior wisdom.

after Living and studying hebrew in Israel, for three years, and their concepts in Old testament; there are a lot of differences in faiths, pertaining to God and Satan. which I believe the western Christians are heavily paganized in their doctrine. But that is another thread.

But back to your point: " God is not the author or confusion". although the confusion of doctrine made by man, is used By God to bring about his ends.

But Isaiah 29: speaks about how Christians are the unlearned. Which is true for most Christians, for Christians learn doctrines, instead of Learning the pure word of God, Like jews do. Of Course jews learn the word, But understand little of it, since they have not the Keys to discernment, which is Knowledge of Jesus as Messiah.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Well, we're all interpret the Scriptures. It's not enough to say that what I think any part of it means is God speaking to me, whereas what that other fellow thinks it means is just a human interpretation. We all depend upon interpreting the scriptures. To the extent that we should not ADD anything to them as being necessary for salvation, I agree completely, but if the difference between denominations is only a matter of interpretation, everyone has one (denomination).



And what those doctrines are is a mainly a matter of interpreting scripture.



God and his word. This still doesn't tell us much about denomination or whose interpretation is correct.
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

I wanted to comment on this, which has a profound truth, That all men Interpret scriptures. Of Course this is true, and also it is Gods will. But if someone interprets for you, and forces or causes you to believe a " doctrine". Which is an interpretation which you yourself did not come to yourself, then you and me, are followers of that Doctrine of men.

Now I submit, that every Catholic or Luthern, were given a Amnesia pill, and remembered not any previous doctrines given by denominations, and studied in private the words, Getting opinions from other self taught and learned bible believers, I believe each person would have their own Unique faith, to a degree, And Gods words are so formed that each mans desire for God can be manifest in his faith; and those who are the Most Humble unto the word, or " When the flesh is weak, the spirit is strong". When men allow the spirit to lead and speak and discern, the word; then they have a closer relationship with God, and a pure form of Communion with God.

Now as example, if a doctrine is false in direction, all the faithful who trust this one doctrine, will all be led astray. And some doctrines, lead further astray from God then others. I relate to the pure word. God judges the hearts of each man, apart from his denomination.

But if all these doctrines which lead astray to one degree or another; but these denomination did, all believe Jesus is Lord and savior; Most believers are still saved, I believe for their faith. But these polluted and lead astray believers, is where the Scripture of, " I have polluted mine inheritance" refers too in scriptures, in my opinion.

I praise all who wrestle and seek Gods way and truth.

And any who claims ; They respectfully disagree, I shall respect and hear their words as a brother in Christ.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

[Albion]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

I wanted to comment on this, which has a profound truth, That all men Interpret scriptures. Of Course this is true, and also it is Gods will. But if someone interprets for you, and forces or causes you to believe a " doctrine". Which is an interpretation which you yourself did not come to yourself, then you and me, are followers of that Doctrine of men.

I'd say that this is essentially untrue.

If someone is right in his interpretation and I agree with it, to describe this as though I'm therefore a follower of him rather than that which he is pointing to--God's word--is to describe the situation incorrectly. If I disagree with Mormons that the Bible we have is erroneous while I do agree with (let's say) Baptists that it is correct and inerrant, I am merely in agreement with the one, not a knee-jerk follower of it as though I have surrendered all my judgment to them. And I certainly do not have any committment to everything else they advocate. No, I have to disagree with this proposition.

Now I submit, that every Catholic of Luthern, were given a Amnesia pill, and remembered not any previous doctrines given by denominations, and studied in private the words, Getting opinions from other self taught and learned bible believers, I believe each person would have their own Unique faith, to a degree, And Gods words are so formed that each mans desire for God can be manifest in his faith; and those who are the Most Humble unto the word, or " When the flesh is weak, the spirit is strong".

I am more in agreement here. If what you are saying is that SOME people just follow the leader, I can't disagree, or that SOME have a loyalty to denomination that is unfortunate, I'd also agree. However, this doesn't make denominations wrong or the members of them generally just sheep or cult-like.

[Spiritofprophecy]

I'd say that this is essentially untrue.

If someone is right in his interpretation and I agree with it, to describe this as though I'm therefore a follower of him rather than that which he is pointing to--God's word--is to describe the situation incorrectly. If I disagree with Mormons that the Bible we have is erroneous while I do agree with (let's say) Baptists that it is correct and inerrant, I am merely in agreement with the one, not a knee-jerk follower of it as though I have surrendered all my judgment to them. And I certainly do not have any committment to everything else they advocate. No, I have to disagree with this proposition.



I am more in agreement here. If what you are saying is that SOME people just follow the leader, I can't disagree, or that SOME have a loyalty to denomination that is unfortunate, I'd also agree. However, this doesn't make denominations wrong or the members of them generally just sheep or cult-like.
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

First I would like to thank you for your interest and desire for Gods truth, and to wrestle with the spirit. And also to commend you for your honorable manner and repose, it speaks well of you.

As far as one saying this is true or that doctrine in right, These are opinions, As all my words are not either, true or False, but only my opinion, and as stated; The word of God is right, as I so interpret, as to spiritual revelation.

This position is the Human humility position, that I myself, am Nothing; And what substance I do have of Knowledge of God, I claim comes from spirit.

As to Gods truth; What I think, is not of value, only what God thinks, and says, And then I seek his Knowledge. And understand his way, which is different than mine or human way.

Example, I cannot in truth say. joe blow is right or Baptists. being definitive, if its pure interpretation. I can state my understanding and belief.

What is my point, Example, I might believe in Pre tribulation Rapture, but after years of hearing and comparing to other sound doctrines, and concepts of spiritual believers, who disagree; I might come to think, pre tribulation rapture, might not be a sure thing doctrine.

This comes down to where should we put our faith?

In the established doctrine of denominations, of which there are some 2000 and all different in interpretation. when the truth is Only the Word, or bible is total truth. which 1999 of interpretation must have error. Although I personally believe all 2000 have error. Follow God and his words, not doctrines of men.

Who is right? No man is right, all men fall short of the perfection and glory of God.( Jesus). its written, " man cannot hold the spirit".. but men try to institutionalize the spirit, into their institutions of men. Thats mans way.

Now I ask, where does the spirit reside, In Notre Dame, or Oral roberts, or S.M.U. or Baylor?. I submit, as written, that Gods spirit does not reside in "bricks and mortar," but in the hearts of men alone of faith. Which all men are given a measure.

Some one 500 years ago, has no special dispensation on gods wisdom, in discernment, above you or me.

As another example. if I did believe in Catholicism, and their Interpretations from 500 years ago. which did include a Flat earth, and 6000 year age of earth, and condemnation of Galileo and Copernicus. Should not that Give cause to question their interpretational skills? yes

My point, if you or me say I am Catholic or Luthern; then your a follower, and the Unlearned. God wants a personal communion with each man. If I follow a set doctrine of denominations, then its not my doctrine.

I am not supposed to trust men. Dont trust me either: for I err. Trust God alone. And God is his words, written for you, not a pastor or priest to interpret for you.

our faith and understanding of God is a personal requirement. for salvation.

True Christians, is not something One says, or words mimicked given by another or a place one goes on Sunday. True Christianity is a way of life, and breath, and thought, Seven Days a week.

As a human of weakness I cannot say, that this denomination or this person is right. Only that I believe it is right to my understanding, but I could be wrong. And that Only the bible and word is right.

And that is where our faith should be place, in the word alone. because men err, even denominations.

I pray my words do not offend. God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

[Albion]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

First I would like to thank you for your interest and desire for Gods truth, and to wrestle with the spirit. And also to commend you for your honorable manner and repose, it speaks well of you.

Thank you.

As far as one saying this is true or that doctrine is right, These are opinions, As all my words are not either, true or False, but only my opinion, and as stated; The word of God is right, as I so interpret, as to spiritual revelation.

I agree. Whatever any of us believes, it is our own opinion...or shall we say, with more accuracy, that it is the view or interpretation which we subscribe to as being correct.

This position is the Human humility position, that I myself, am Nothing; And what substance I do have of Knowledge of God, I claim comes from spirit.

As to Gods truth; What I think, is not of value, only what God thinks, and says, And then I seek his Knowledge. And understand his way, which is different than mine or human way.

Well, I'm assuming that much in every part of this discussion.

It is not the case with members of almost any of the denominations, despite the differences between these, that they will believe whatever makes them feel happy. Yes, there are such people, but we can't stigmatize most Christians with that charge merely because they belong to a denominational church. It really is a question of which of a number of honest but differing interpretations of Scripture each of us gives our assent to.

Example, I cannot in truth say. joe blow is right or Baptists. being definitive, if its pure interpretation. I can state my understanding and belief.

Sure, but in practice, it amounts to the same thing. If we allow that we might be wrong, we still have to stand on what we think is right and for the reasons that persuade us.

What is my point, Example, I might believe in Pre tribulation Rapture, but after years of hearing and comparing to other sound doctrines, and concepts of spiritual believers, who disagree; I might come to think, pre tribulation rapture, might not be a sure thing doctrine.

This comes down to where should we put our faith?

In the established doctrine of denominations, of which there are some 2000 and all different in interpretation. when the truth is Only the Word, or bible is total truth. which 1999 of interpretation must have error. Although I personally believe all 2000 have error. Follow God and his words, not doctrines of men.

Who is right? No man is right,

I guess that's the point on which we depart. If 2000 denominations can't all be right, it doesn't follow that one of them can't be right.

all men fall short of the perfection and glory of God.( Jesus). its written, " man cannot hold the spirit".. but men try to institutionalize the spirit, into their institutions of men. Thats mans way.

It seems to me that this introduces a new consideration...or maybe I missed it in the first place. I do not see denominations as wrong in themselves so long as we do not take the approach that any one of them is the "one true church" and the others are phonies. The invisible church is the assembly of all true believers, in whatever denomination, and who are known only to God. But as to the beliefs each denomination holds, we can assess who is right and who is wrong without also decreeing that one of these churches (as opposed to their teachings) is God's one and only.

Now I ask, where does the spirit reside, In Notre Dame, or Oral roberts, or S.M.U. or Baylor?. I submit, as written, that Gods spirit does not reside in "bricks and mortar," but in the hearts of men alone of faith. Which all men are given a measure.

Certainly so.

Some one 500 years ago, has no special dispensation on gods wisdom, in discernment, above you or me.

In principle, that is so.

As another example. if I did believe in Catholicism, and their Interpretations from 500 years ago. which did include a Flat earth, and 6000 year age of earth, and condemnation of Galileo and Copernicus. Should not that Give cause to question their interpretational skills? yes

Maybe, but they would reply that those are not dogmas that that church ever required of its people. IOW, you can only make your assessment on the docrtrines that the church made obligatory. But I don't see how this affects our perception of denominations. There are many others to choose between, and many of them are much less susceptible to this kind of criticism in as much as they did not take the "Visible Church is infallible" POV.

My point, if you or me say I am Catholic or Luthern; then your a follower, and the Unlearned. God wants a personal communion with each man.

I'd say that there is nothing wrong with being a follower, depending upon how you follow. Then too, God wants a personal communion but that has nothing whatever to do with doctrine. It is doctrine and doctrinal differences between the churches that we have been talking about, no?

If I follow a set doctrine of denominations, then its not my doctrine.

Again, if you put it that way--"follow a set of doctrine of denominations" -- it sounds like I have surrendered all my intelligence and faith to some religious guru. But that is not what denominational affiliations mean in most cases. If I come to the firm conviction that the Bible teaches X, I am likely to go to that church which also teaches it in stead of doctrine Y this coming Sunday. That means that I belong to a denomination because it agrees with me, whereas you speak as though members belong because they have no discernment or learning at all.

I am not supposed to trust men. Dont trust me either: for I err. Trust God alone.

But this is a false comparison. If I were a Baptist, say, it would not be because I trust the pastor but because he understand the Bible correctly as I MYSELF see it. This doesn't mean that I can't learn a thing or two from him, though.

our faith and understanding of God is a personal requirement. for salvation.

Well, understanding correctly is a requirement. That brings us back to which interpretation is the right one. You can't just believe in whatever you personally think the Bible is saying. It doesn't profit you to believe...if your belief is seriously in error (about who Jesus is, for example). You might say that what you believe is sincere and your own, but if it is not the Gospel, better that you did get the guidance of a pastor, even if a pastor of some denomination.

True Christians, is not something One says, or words mimicked given by another or a place one goes on Sunday. True Christianity is a way of life, and breath, and thought, Seven Days a week.

Now that seems to me to be yet another, new, slant on the subject. We are moving beyond belief to lifestyle.

As a human of weakness I cannot say, that this denomination or this person is right.

Sure you can. That, in fact, is all you can do. You have to make a judgment. Possibly, that could make you a one-man church, but since most of the possible slants on the Bible are represented by one denomination or another, it is more llikely to make you be in step with one of them. There is nothing special about a denomination in itself but it is a collection of people who have come to the same interpretation.

And that is where our faith should be place, in the word alone. because men err, even denominations.

Sure. I agree. But which denomination has the word understood correctly? If there is one, there's nothing wrong with joining it.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Dear Albion::hug:

Dear brother in Christ: I would first like to commend you for your honorable manner, and respectful discourse.

In General I see we have Much in common, And even in those things you find differences, I see as, almost the same, but only in a different perspective.

When you say, this is where we depart. you are right, because I did not make myself clear, Its one of many failings, along with rambling, and to digress.

One the 2000 denominations that are all Wrong, should be stated, all have false doctrines, out of vanity and doctrines placating the flesh, and popular doctrines for financial Gain. But also 2000 denominations which you say cannot be all wrong. Rightly so, I believe all 2000 have a measure of truth, And all have some righteous doctrines. But the Point I was trying to make, was that Not one of the 2000, is completely right or perfect in doctrine or theology, all fall short, and yet all are right, in measure as to there alignment with the word.

But as Catholics Go. they believe they are One and Only Church, with doctrines that the Pope, is " perfect in theological matters of the church" which I cannot accept, as sound doctrine supported by the word. But for the most part they have many sound doctrines and truths.

Unto the One true Church, which is the faithful of Jesus, from all denominations, which I think we agree. I say One God, One salvation, One Church, One truth, Gods truth.

I would then like Go back to our Jewish roots, as what a true Church should be. which also relates to Isaiah 29, which depicts Christians as the "Unlearned." Learning God, is to basically learn Gods words, "God and his words are One", and write these words upon our hearts, that they might live within us.

I have found in my travels, living In Israel for three years, that the tradition of learning God, in services, was only to read the word, with No translation by man. Each man is responsible to learn the words, and allow the spirit to Interpret. In Jewish service, no interpretations are given or asked.questions and discourse of interpretations, that comes after, and people discuss as we are now. Which there is not Institutionalize interpretation or doctrines. As Christians institutionalize their popular precepts.The Jewish way, which are the roots of Gods way of learning, we Christians are not rooted in. Christians are fractured in precepts institutionalized.

And in my opinion, Never should Gods truths, be established by men, based on polls of popular opinion. A minority opinion could be more likely to be the truth.
"trust in the Lord with all thine might; and lean not unto thine own understanding, but unto every word which comes from God.". and western Churches have become a popularity contest for believers. I find Christians, good ones, which are suppose to and claim, they should forgive and love their enemies, and yet condemn fellow christians for a word, or different concept or precept.

there are many things I would like to discuss with you, but I shall leave that for another time, and not have such Long posts of many concepts and themes, which we do not justice then to any, seeking to discuss to many things.

But I truly enjoy your words. and praise your desire in seeking Gods truths, and hidden things reserved for the faithful.

I shall praise God for your spirit, and pray that he keep you safe. your fried always. SOP.

I pray my words do not offend any.
May God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.:wave:
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[Albion]

In General I see we have Much in common, And even in those things you find differences, I see as, almost the same, but only in a different perspective.

I had that impression, too.

When you say, this is where we depart. you are right, because I did not make myself clear, Its one of many failings, along with rambling, and to digress.

One the 2000 denominations that are all Wrong, should be stated, all have false doctrines, out of vanity and doctrines placating the flesh, and popular doctrines for financial Gain.

I can't agree with that--which is all right, since everyone is entitled to an opinion and I can see where you could come by this one--because it is too categorical an observation. There are some denominations/church organizations which have overstepped their bounds in various ways, but I can't agree that none can possibly have the truth or that all are only money-oriented, etc. Perhaps the larger of them or certain ones, but not in every case.

But also 2000 denominations which you say cannot be all wrong. Rightly so, I believe all 2000 have a measure of truth, And all have some righteous doctrines. But the Point I was trying to make, was that Not one of the 2000, is completely right or perfect in doctrine or theology, all fall short, and yet all are right, in measure as to there alignment with the word.

Well, I agree about it being a matter of degree. However, it still isn't correct to decide, at the onset, that it is impossible for even one to be right on all matters. How would anyoen even come to such a conclusion? It sounds basically like a generalization, such as saying all politicians are crooked or all athletes are poor students, etc.

In addition, we haven't quite identified what we mean by "denominations." If it is a family of faith, like Lutheran, we have a number of church bodies within that grouping. But if you call each of them a denomination, that could give us some different perspective. I certainly wouldn't condemn all because of the failings of some.

But as Catholics Go. they believe they are One and Only Church, with doctrines that the Pope, is " perfect in theological matters of the church" which I cannot accept, as sound doctrine supported by the word. But for the most part they have many sound doctrines and truths.

Unto the One true Church, which is the faithful of Jesus, from all denominations, which I think we agree. I say One God, One salvation, One Church, One truth, Gods truth.

I would then like Go back to our Jewish roots, as what a true Church should be. which also relates to Isaiah 29, which depicts Christians as the "Unlearned." Learning God, is to basically learn Gods words, "God and his words are One", and write these words upon our hearts, that they might live within us.

Well, sure. But you have cited in support of your idea about denominations in general ONE doctrine of ONE church...and a rather unique one at that. Almost no other denomination is wrong on this account.

And in my opinion, Never should Gods truths, be established by men, based on polls of popular opinion. A minority opinion could be more likely to be the truth.

Of course. But as you have been explaining your position, it appears that you have decided, up front, that all denominations must be wrong or partly wrong, not just the majority opinion ones. Now you are allowing that "a minority opinion could be more likely to be the truth?" If it is...then all denominations are not wrong after all.

I get the idea that you are offended--and rightly so--by the pride, organizational infighting, and other wrongs associated with churches in general. My point is that this is to paint all of them with a too-wide brush. Not every mistake committed by this or that denomination necessarily applies to every other one, although I know that in this and other such discussions there is always a human tendency to generalize our criticisms, saying "that's the way they are" or "they all do it." I think this essentially is where I am in disagreement with what you've written, not with particular errors that we can associate with some church bodies.

[RadicallyTransformedMom]

Hi Spiritofprophecy!
I have read through this discussion and find it quite interesting. I find myself agreeing with alot of what your saying. I want to ask you a few questions to clarify.
Do you attend any church? If so, which one?
Do you believe Christians should attend a church, even if they don't necessarily agree with all the doctrines of that church?
Do you believe if we read the bible only and listen to our heart we will recieve correct interpretation straight from God? If that is so, does that mean there is a bunch of people that all believe 100% of the truth?
Do you believe YOU know 100% of truth?

Thats all i can think of for now. Your answers will help me understand where else to go with this conversation. Thanks so much for your time. God bless you.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus: :hug:

Dear Albion:

Well my friend, I was sure,we could if we tried, to find a separation in interpretation. But I am a little surprised that you accept the doctrine;that Man can be perfect in Interpretation. For one to say, " it isn't correct to decide, at the Onset, that it is impossible for even One to be right on all matters." I interpret scriptures as saying this.

Well I would have to respectively disagree, based on scriptural references unto man as related to God.

The implication
for One to say what you said,would imply that there is someone out there which is right on all matters. Which I would have to say this does directly contradict many scripts. Such as " all fall short of the Glory of God" and " he who saith he hath not sin, calleth me a liar". and " the best of man, is as a filthy rag unto the glory of God." I could go on and On, But if man could be perfect, then Jesus would not have need to die for man, for mans imperfection.all men are born into the House of sin. and " all men have sinned, and falls short of the glory of God." I have no recall of any one ever being claimed as perfect, other than the Pope. Besides Jesus.

I would respectively ask you be more skeptical of mans perfection, which in my opinion, is a form of vanity to even consider, which My view is the total opposite of mans perfection, we are to seek perfection but we shall all fail. Its not the achieving perfection that matters, but the trying our best, to be that matters, even though we all shall fail. " when the flesh is weak, the spirit is strong" also the spirit gave me this scripture. " he who exalteth himself, shall be Humbled: but he who humbleth himself, shall be exalted."

Of course all 2000 interpretational doctrines and denominations (denominations as Unique interpretations, institutionalized by a group); each denomination believes in their rightness, and besides the Pope in Catholicism doctrine, as being perfect in " theological matters". I have never ever heard any one even claim, their group or any person could be perfect. but only their interpretation.

I would venture to say that even Peter, is known, by my interpretation of scriptures, to be wrong two times, after Jesus was Crucified. for years denying Gentiles as inheritors and receivers of Gods spirit and salvation, and also three times denying Gods vision to eat Unclean animals which after Jesus, were then clean. Of course Catholics take issue with this, but its pretty well documented, as well as referenced in scriptures, in Acts.

I would be interested in which Group you claim, could or is perfect in theology matters. So I can go and watch them walk on water. Just jesting.

As far as my opinion as to denominational impurity and pollution, I root this concept in prophecies and scriptures about the end times, as written, Jesus comes back to reprove the world for sin. As well as 2000 doctrinal denominations all out of but One Truth, God, and word.

Some say men of faith are sinless. I say that also, but I am not sinless of myself, I am the dirty rag, which is washed clean by the perfect blood of Jesus, by faith, and grace. As I can say, All men of faith are sinners, and yet sinless.

But if one claims Jesus as Christ and savior, other doctrines which differ, would not cause loss of salvation, or an unforgivable sin. But I believe this perfection doctrine is dangerous, And If I may suggest, you do not stop considering in future, that it or you could be wrong. One man being able to be perfect in theological matters.

But we can respectfully disagree on this precept.

On Minority and Majority opinions, I base on Scriptures, and the ways of this world. Now if we accept your thesis, that one can be totally right, then of 2000 opposing different concepts and precepts, 1999, again must be wrong. If you have 2000 different opinions of only One truth, then logic says, 1999, must be wrong, I also claimed then one more, making 2000.

Now your reference to my, being offended by denominational in fighting. I guess in a form, I am offended, for I find that Claimed Christians, can be so vile and contemptuous of fellow Christians, over simple doctrines and different interpretations, without forgiveness for all. This statement has truth, for Claimed Christians, who seek not to act Like Jesus, does offend me. And I believe it also offends Jesus.

I base much of my " precepts of man" on the Isaiah 29. prophecy. Which is a end time prophecy.

I could go on, but this post is too long already.

as always I enjoy your words, and appreciate your insights.

I pray my words do not offend any, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.:wave:
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[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the Name of Jesus::hug:

Dear RedtulipMoon:

I first would like to thank you for your Interest and desire, in wrestling with Gods spirit, to find the secret and hidden things of Gods words, reserved for the faithful of God.

I would first like to say, that Church as to "Going to Church" is a redacted concept, which is another denominational addition. The original intent and meaning for Church, is the faithful of God, Calling it " Gods Church", as to meaning Gods people. or Gods faithful.

In reference unto your questions original intent, the scripture, " do not forsake in Gathering yourselves together". which means the Church or people should gather and worship and praise God together. In fact, we now are in a form of worship or " Church" as you so interpret right now. In Gathering together to seek Gods truth, and praise and worship his precepts.

As far as Houses of worship. I was born and raised as a Nazarene, but became more Charismatic, evolving into a Non denominational, Scripture is God faithful only. In my desire to follow Jewish roots which Jesus also did follow. And I am Influenced by several years living in Israel.

As far as houses of worship, I have several I like, which all are Non denominational.

I hope I have accurately addressed your question.

I praise God for your spirit, and that he keep you safe,

I pray no one take offense by my words. God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it. :wave:


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[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name Jesus::hug:

Dear RedTulipMoon;

Again I thank you for your interest, and in seeking out Gods truths, wherever you can.

As to your second question:

It is very good question. About read the word, and Listen to our hearts. Instead of the word "heart", which can deceive us, I would use , " spiritual Guide". or spirit.

My answer would be Yes, with conditions for receiving these revelations. first one must believe in God, and that his words are Gods truth. " faith". Then One must deny his self, or flesh, and be humble unto Gods righteousness, and eliminate our own self righteousness.

" when the flesh is weak, the spirit is strong". As to making oneself, into soft clay to be molded by God. For most of the time, Gods will and word is different from mans will, and desires, and wishes as to Gods will. We must eliminate our will and desires, to hear Gods spirit, through the word, by faith therein.

Now as to 100% given to men; No one receives it all. But parts are given unto different people, but all is given out unto the faithful. One part to one, and another part to another. Based upon their faith and merit.

I hope that accurately addresses your question.

Of course this is my spiritual interpretation, and opinion given me by the spirit.

I pray my words do not offend. God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.:wave:
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[Albion]

Dear Albion:

Well my friend, I was sure,we could if we tried, to find a separation in interpretation. But I am a little surprised that you accept the doctrine;that Man can be perfect in Interpretation.

Why would you assume that God would reveal his will for us through inspiring writers, knowing that none of us could possibly understand what he was revealing? IMO, to hold to such a notion is tantamount to denying the purpose, worth, and significance of the Scriptures.

For one to say, " it isn't correct to decide, at the Onset, that it is impossible for even One to be right on all matters." I interpret scriptures as saying this.

OK, but I don't. Time and again the scriptures themselves speak of God's Word as of utmost value to us and commends them to us for our edification and guidance. Now, if we have no possibility of understanding what it written there, this would all be useless or, worse, a deception.

The implication.
for One to say what you said,would imply that there is someone out there which is right on all matters.

No, but there is no reason to say that no man ever has the possibility of understanding the Bible. This is not to say in any way, nor did I, that someone can know all things or, as you put it, "on all matters."

Which I would have to say this does directly contradict many scripts. Such as " all fall short of the Glory of God"

But that refers to our condition vis a vis sin. It does not refer to our ability to understand writings.

and " he who saith he hath not sin, calleth me a liar". and " the best of man, is as a filthy rag unto the glory of God." I could go on and On, But if man could be perfect,

Whoa! That verse doesn't refer to our ability to read written language and comprehend, not any more than the former one. And, more than that, no one before you said anything about anyone being "perfect." We are talking merely about the ability of humans to read what God put before us in written form and understand it.


Of course all 2000 interpretational doctrines and denominations (denominations as Unique interpretations, institutionalized by a group); each denomination believes in their rightness, and besides the Pope in Catholicism doctrine, as being perfect in " theological matters".

First, even in Catholicism the Pope is not claimed to have that kind of power, and there are many denominations who do not say that they have any particular infallible insight into translating and understanding the scriptures. This is way, way, off the subject.

I have never ever heard any one even claim, their group or any person could be perfect.

Me neither! So let's stick with what we were talking about instead.

Some say men of faith are sinless.

I certainly wouldn't agree to that proposition, nor does the Bible support it.

But if one claims Jesus as Christ and savior, other doctrines which differ, would not cause loss of salvation, or an unforgivable sin.

That's right.

But I believe this perfection doctrine is dangerous

I agree totally. But no one that I know claims perfection and it had no part in our discussion before this point. Obviously you have misunderstood what I wrote before.

On Minority and Majority opinions, I base on Scriptures, and the ways of this world. Now if we accept your thesis, that one can be totally right,

That's not my thesis.

then of 2000 opposing different concepts and precepts, 1999, again must be wrong.

Not necessarily.

If you have 2000 different opinions of only One truth, then logic says, 1999, must be wrong, I also claimed then one more, making 2000.

I said that before. My point is that you can't rule out one of the 2000 from being right just because there are many different denominations. You might be able to show me that every denomination in the world teaches error, but you haven't done that. In the meanwhile, we cannot assume that all are wrong.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

dear Albion;

If one Group is all right on bible theology: then that is a form of Perfection of theology

And there is a difference between saying the Pope is perfect in theological matters.

And its a Catholic written canonized law, That Popes are perfect in theological matters. I didn't say they accept it or claim it. In truth most Catholics do not know it even exists. Its still written, and not removed.

Now I agree with the premise. God would not have written it, without someone correctly interpreting.

But not that One can receive all, which is to say, faithful can receive a measure of discernment, but none to the extent they then can walk on water, In least not from all knowing theology truths of Scriptures.

As far as interpretations of Scriptures, I shall hold unto my Spiritual given interpretations.

Now as you have claim a superiority of interpretation of scriptures, correcting my interpretation.

which I love hearing and a Challenge.

Here is the definitive spiritual test, Matt 25; 14-29.

Its just a one word answer, unto the definition of "Talents". which must answer.

He who is given much, more shall be given;but he who is given little, what little he has shall be taken away.

So impress me, and give discernment into matthew 25;29.telling us what Talents represents. which God takes from he who has little?

I pray my words do not offend,
God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

[Albion]

If one Group is all right on bible theology: then that is a form of Perfection of theology

No, if a group happens to be right on any number of theological points, it is right about them, that's all. They can also be wrong on some, too. There's nothing more to this than that, and there's no "Perfection of theology," etc claimed or present in it.

And there is a difference between saying the Pope is perfect in theological matters.

...a difference between saying that....and what?

And its a Catholic written canonized law, That Popes are perfect in theological matters.

No, it is not. You misunderstand or picked up some misconceptions about this somewhere along the line. Popes can be wrong on all manner of theological matters, according to official Catholic teaching.

I didn't say they accept it or claim it. In truth most Catholics do not know it even exists. Its still written, and not removed.

You haven't identified exactly what you are talking about there, but I believe that most Catholics are sufficiently trained in the matter of how an ex cathedra statement -- of which there have only been two in all history -- is considered correct. Nothing else the Pope says falls into that category, and certainly he is considered fallible -- in the absence of an ex cathedra degree dealing with faith and morals -- even though he speaks on theological issues all the time.

Now I agree with the premise. God would not have written it, without someone correctly interpreting.

That's my point. Thank you.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus;

Dear Albion:

I am please with your interest: but also confused by your interpretations of Scriptures, related to life as we see it.

Let my be direct and say: Men have different interpretations by men of Gods words, Which have been termed as denominational thought. Which have been Institutionalized by men.

I will submit and venture to say: that each and every denomination, has different interpretations, than each and every other denomination. On various scriptures, and yet many common truths unto all, or most.

Now I will agree that all denominations have a measure of truth. Especially those who claim the divinity of Christ. Which even this has many variances and concepts. I thought you claimed one denomination is perfect or entirely correct in theology, which I could not accept, or agree as fact. Seeking which you claimed as superior.

My opinion and belief is that all denominations of men, are of men, and have imperfections and also false doctrines and teachings, when out side the pure word. Meaning not any denomination has it all, and is not Gods true Church but the Precepts of men, which I related to Isaiah 29;13. which prophecies this very thing, in my opinion.

I am Happy you agree that 99 out of 100 Denominations, are mans precepts and not perfect. As a Christians, I say we are in 99% agreement. And only separated by the One. And also that Gods words sure, and pure and eternal.

I do not deny the truths of denominational precepts which are based in Gods words, which is why God allowed their existence. I Only reject, those precepts based not in the sure word, but in precepts of men, and desires of the flesh, doctrine.

Personally I believe Gods words are perfect and eternal, and needs not any addition or subtraction, of precepts and theology, of men. And the closer we are to the word, the closer we are to God and his truth. Which is what the Spirit reveals unto me.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.:wave:

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[Albion]

I am please with your interest: but also confused by your interpretations of Scriptures, related to life as we see it.

Let my be direct and say: Men have different interpretations by men of Gods words, Which have been termed as denominational thought. Which have been Institutionalized by men.

To a certain degree, I accept that.

I will submit and venture to say: that each and every denomination, has different interpretations, than each and every other denomination. On various scriptures, and yet many common truths unto all, or most.

Well, that's not exactly true, as many denominations depart from others for different reasons, but OK.

Now I will agree that all denominations have a measure of truth. Especially those who claim the divinity of Christ. Which even this has many variances and concepts. I thought you claimed one denomination is perfect or entirely correct in theology, which I could not accept, or agree as fact.

No, I certainly did not say that. What I said is that you cannot conclude, merely because there are many denominations, that not one of them can be correct.

My opinion and belief is that all denominations of men, are of men, and have imperfections and also false doctrines and teachings, when out side the pure word.

So, what we need to know is how you came to that conclusion. What evidence is there that not a single one has understood the Bible correctly (while, on the other hand, a mere individual like yourself does)?

Meaning not any denomination has it all, and is not Gods true Church but the Precepts of men, which I related to Isaiah 29;13. which prophecies this very thing, in my opinion.

Ah, then it is your interpretation (which could as easily be called as manmade as that of any denomination) of that verse which leads you to this conclusion. How does this differ from what any denomination does...except that they normally have many theologians and teachers while you are following only your own best judgment?

I am Happy you agree that 99 out of 100 Denominations, are mans precepts and not perfect.

I didn't agree to that.

I do not deny the truths of denominational precepts which are based in Gods words, which is why God allowed their existence. I Only reject, those precepts based not in the sure word, but in precepts of men, and desires of the flesh, doctrine.

Me too. What I find odd is the conclusion you came to that it is impossible for any church to be right, especially since you now are saying that they are capable of it.

So is the point of departure for you what you call "precepts based not in the sure word?" If so, I'd tentatively agree, but you need to give some specific examples of this since merely interpreting the Word of God doesn't creates a "precept based not in the sure word, but in precepts of men."

But if you are thinking of non-Biblical "add ons" that some churches have engaged in, I'd agree. That still doesn't allow for tarring every denomination that does adhere to the Word.

And, as we've noted, there's nothing special in being non-denominational, either, since I run into the most bizarre and unBiblical ideas that individuals, not churches or denominations, have come up with and say represent the God's own truth.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name Of Jesus::hug:

Dear Albion:

I am not sure, what you are trying to prove, out side what I interpret in your words, as to say

You are wrong! Assuming you are right. do not strive with me who is wrong. For I seek not to prove any thing. For I speak as the spirit so leads me. And you are pursuing and seeking me out. While claiming, its only my opinion and interpretations. But I point out, it is the interpretation and opinion, you sought out of me.

Since my " wrong interpretations". and opinions and views are not accepted or believed by you. Do not seek or ask, or strive with me.

For as I have reviewed your posts, in response to me. I find I have answered all your questions, and shown respect and honor unto your words, which you have not reciprocated in any measure, unto me.

Trust in your theologians and teachers, as to your desired and preferred doctrines, in Gods peace. And leave me to my spirit filled, and spirit discernment of Hidden verses, unto me and those who actually want it.

Let me be direct and say; I do not request or ask or seek any established Denominational thought or precepts, which I renounce as " pollution of Gods Inheritance". Lest you have new revelations, of Gods words and prophecies, which is totally banned from the denominations I know of.

In Conclusion: Since you answer not me, on simple parables. I ask you not to query me further. Lest you are willing to answer me. And my question, is simple:

What is Talents, in parable of talents? Matthew 25;29.KJV. If you have not wisdom of God in this, Why should I or we accept any thing as truth of God that you claim? For if you have not wisdom, of the little things of God: neither can there be wisdom in you of the big things or of the meat of God.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.:wave:




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[Albion]

Assuming you are right. do not strive with me who is wrong.

Sorry, but this is a D-E-B-A-T-E forum. When you offer a religious theory here, you cannot demand that no one take issue with it because you are incapable of error or just don't want to hear another view.

Trust in your theologians and teachers

I never said that I do. What I have been advocating is trust in the Word of God.

I understand what you want me to appreciate there--that since "theologians and teachers" deal in understanding the scriptures, they don't find acceptance with you.

For I speak as the spirit so leads me.

In fact, you often cite passages from the Word of God instead of speaking as some spirit leads you. I would be interested in actually having you give us the truth according to your spirit, if that is your religious methodology.

We already know the Bible passages you have been copying.

If you have not wisdom of God in this, Why should I or we accept any thing as truth of God that you claim?

Well, perhaps it is because I DO have the wisdom of God in this.

And that is because I accept the revealed Word of God and do not add to it anything of my own, even when that is called by appealing words like "new revelations...and prophecies." You do realize, I hope, that the Holy Spirit will never countermand or go against anything that is in scripture, and no new revelation or prophesy can do that.i

So which is it? Personal opinions or the Word of God? Oh, I almost forgot that questions make you feel uneasy, so I'll answer it myself. The Word of God is our guide. There is nothing above it.

The point we were working on, though, had been the reliability of denominations. From what we have exchanged over the past few posts, I think we've agreed that much of what denominational leaders teach is manmade, but not that every denomination must, of necessity, be that way or wrong, and certainly not any more than unaffiliated individuals or non-denominational churches and groups.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Sorry, but this is a D-E-B-A-T-E forum. When you offer a religious theory here, you cannot demand that no one take issue with it because you are incapable of error or just don't want to hear another view.



I never said that I do. What I have been advocating is trust in the Word of God.

I understand what you want me to appreciate there--that since "theologians and teachers" deal in understanding the scriptures, they don't find acceptance with you.



In fact, you often cite passages from the Word of God instead of speaking as some spirit leads you. I would be interested in actually having you give us the truth according to your spirit, if that is your religious methodology.

We already know the Bible passages you have been copying.



Well, perhaps it is because I DO have the wisdom of God in this.

And that is because I accept the revealed Word of God and do not add to it anything of my own, even when that is called by appealing words like "new revelations...and prophecies." You do realize, I hope, that the Holy Spirit will never countermand or go against anything that is in scripture, and no new revelation or prophesy can do that.i

So which is it? Personal opinions or the Word of God? Oh, I almost forgot that questions make you feel uneasy, so I'll answer it myself. The Word of God is our guide. There is nothing above it.

The point we were working on, though, had been the reliability of denominations. From what we have exchanged over the past few posts, I think we've agreed that much of what denominational leaders teach is manmade, but not that every denomination must, of necessity, be that way or wrong, and certainly not any more than unaffiliated individuals or non-denominational churches and groups.
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

dear Albion; Unto your first point, This is a debate forum, you say, "where you cannot demand one take issue."

My answer is Yes, this is a debate form of forum, But we are not having a debate. for Only I am answering questions, you do not answer, you only ask. I also do not parse your words, but you do of mine. I have made no demands that one cannot take issue. But you say I do. But I do demand, yes demand that if you take issue of my theories and interpretation of the spirit, and I then respond, then you must also allow me to take issue with you, and your points and ask and you must respond. But so far, you have refused. And that is not, " Civilized discourse" or debate.

Now a debate: is question and response, and then question and response in kind. Now if you do not want to answer me, as in a true debate. Then this is not a debate, this is a inquisition, and an attack.

Now lest you reciprocate in kind in response as to a true debate, or your premise of debate is false. For a debate is not Just one side asking, and the other answering. It is give and take.

Now you quote me falsely as saying, " that no denomination is correct" Which I say all denominations are correct, But NO denomination is correct in all things.
Let me repeat that, No denomination is correct in all things, As to theology or interpretation of the scripture.

Now I shall ask you again. Which denomination has not error in all things as to theology and interpretations.

Now if you take issue with this premise I put forth, that no denomination is without error in theology and interpretation. Then your not arguing in debate, but parsing, and taking baseless positions, without a denominational foundation to point too. As a base to even argue from. Some fictitious mystery denomination has truth.

As to theologians and teachers disagreeing with me. What a meaningless Phrase, for theologians and teachers can be found to disagree with any interpretation, and any denomination, in a myriad of contradicting views.

As to religious Methodology: I say its a sin, to label others, as we so choose. I said " spiritual Interpretation". As I have not labeled you, as Catholic or Anglican. Which I do not seek to put words in others mouth, or assume one is a follower of precepts of men. Lest they themselves so say it.

I took issue that you claimed my interpretations were mine, which is true, and that Theologians and teachers do not agree. This is debate in the Shadows from you.

What teachers, what theologians, What doctrines are you speaking of.

Do you speak to my fruits, which is to my interpretation and words? No. Since we are speaking of Doctrines and denominations as to Truth. Not one denomination; which has been spoken by You. Now I say, if your perfect hidden denomination, cannot be openly Judged and seen and discerned upon its truth. Then you are the one which denies it has perfection and is of truth. for you cannot even stand up for this professed denomination, and unto its truth.

Now when you did make Judgement to my Interpretation as being disagreed with by theologians and teachers. Which you then claim not power of scriptural discernment yourself. Then this is proof Positive, that you are a follower, and in fulfillment of Isaiah 29;13. As if your interpretation is not of your own. And not personal relationship with God.

Now if you cannot Know parables of God and the Little truths, How then can you Judge me, or any theologians with any confidence of its truth unto Gods words and spirit? One cannot.

Now I say again. If you cannot discern the little things of God. How then can you say" this denomination is right and another wrong." I guess you mean, " you Guess".

I do not like to Guess when it comes to Gods words. Which I in Knowledge and yes Authority, Say, denominations have truth, when in alignment unto the word. KJV And not truth, when they " add too, and or take away".

Now I ask again, if you claim this is debate forum. Then One must respect and honor the rights and questions of all. which would include my questions.

I claim you answer me not, Nor do you even attempt to answer my questions.

Now since I have answers, and you have No answers at all. This is not, I repeat Not a debate.

Unless you can come up in support of a denomination which you claim has perfection, or theological spiritual truth without error. My point is then valid. and you have not grounds to stand on, in a true debate form, on " denominational doctrinal errors." Which I give verse reference to support.

All followers of false doctrines of men, all claim, the other guy is wrong in interpretation.

I pray my directness and words do not offend, God bless all christians in forum, and all those who use it.

God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

[Albion]

dear Albion; Unto your first point, This is a debate forum, you say, "where you cannot demand one take issue."

What I wrote was that "you cannot demand that no one take issue" with your views.

My answer is Yes, this is a debate form of forum, But we are not having a debate.

I'm trying, and it was not I who said he'd go no further and didn't want to hear any more.

Only I am answering questions, you do not answer, you only ask.

Not so. For example, when you referred me to your various passages in scripture, I commented on them. It appears to me, though, that I have to agree with your interpretaion or it's considered a non-answer.

But in case I have failed, unintentionally, to answer some other questions you have in mind, do me the favor of coming back to restate them before saying you want to hear nothing more from me, OK?

I also do not parse your words, but you do of mine.

Again, I have no idea what you are referring to, and if you don't point it out, I cannot know what it is.

But I do demand, yes demand that if you take issue of my theories and interpretation of the spirit, and I then respond, then you must also allow me to take issue with you, and your points and ask and you must respond.

Of course.

Now you quote me falsely as saying, " that no denomination is correct" Which I say all denominations are correct, But NO denomination is correct in all things.

When I said that your position is that no denomination is correct, I had read you correctly. Yes, I know that you amended it to say that every denomination has SOME of its teachings correctly, but having some things correct and some incorrect does not add up to being correct. Do you really mean to say that being occasionally correct or partly correct equals being correct? No one else would understand it that way.

Let me repeat that, No denomination is correct in all things, As to theology or interpretation of the scripture.

And you let me repeat my position. There is no way you can know that there is no denomination that is correct in all things. You see, I didn't misrepresent you after all.

Now I shall ask you again. Which denomination has not error in all things as to theology and interpretations.

I don't know, in part because I am not familiar with all the teachings of all the denominations that exist. Now....are you an expert on all the denominations in the world such that you can say that not one of them is correct in all its teachings? I don't think so.

You have generalized about denominations throughout this discussion, and that is all that I think you are doing. But the point is still correct--you cannot say that none can be correct in all teachings until you know all that each one of them teaches. You cannot say that they are all teaching wrong just as a broad guess. And you cannot say that none can be right just because there are many of them.

Now if you take issue with this premise I put forth, that no denomination is without error in theology and interpretation. Then your not arguing in debate, but parsing,

What I'm doing is disagreeing with your claim...and that IS debate. I know that you consider it debate only if I agree with everything you write, but that is not how debate works.

I have shown you here why your proposition is impossible. First, because you don't have the necessary information to make the determination, and Second, because the idea that because there is diversity in teachings does not by itself prove that if all but one are wrong, that there is not the possibility of that one which is or can be right. You have not responded to this point.

As to theologians and teachers disagreeing with me. What a meaningless Phrase, for theologians and teachers can be found to disagree with any interpretation, and any denomination, in a myriad of contradicting views.

The point is simple and easily understood. I do not say who is right merely because of numbers. What I do say is that if a thousand experts disagree with you, it is more likely that they are right than one man, yourself. That is indisputable.

As to religious Methodology: I say its a sin, to label others, as we so choose. I said " spiritual Interpretation". As I have not labeled you, as Catholic or Anglican. Which I do not seek to put words in others mouth, or assume one is a follower of precepts of men. Lest they themselves so say it.

I do not say it is a sin to use the word methodology properly. You are entitled to think it is, but I don't agree.

Choose some word you prefer, then. I thought that this one said it well enough, but what would you prefer to call it when the way you decide truth is to listen to your own thoughts and call them prophesies while everyone else believes in scripture? To me, it is fair to say that this is a method. It is the method by which you and they find the source of truth. It of course has nothing to do with what denomination, Catholic or anything else, anyone belongs to.

I took issue that you claimed my interpretations were mine, which is true

If it is true, I don't see why you'd take issue with it.

Do you speak to my fruits, which is to my interpretation and words?

Of course. I have done that repeatedly.

Now when you did make Judgement to my Interpretation as being disagreed with by theologians and teachers.

You're making too much of this little point. It was explained above and now I'll have to explain it again. The probability is that many experts are more likely to be correct than you alone. That is fact. But that is not the reason I took issue with your views--the numbers involved.

I also and primarily take issue with the idea that the Holy Spirit will deny the scriptures and reveal that to a single individual. The scriptures are the revealed word of God; they are not up for revision in this way.

Then this is proof Positive, that you are a follower, and in fulfillment of Isaiah 29;13. As if your interpretation is not of your own. And not personal relationship with God.

Well, that's your personal opinion. Don't fool yourself that it's any kind of "proof" of anything.

You decide what Isaiah means to you, and then you decide that anyone who isn't in agreement with that personal opinion must be following some source of guidance other than the Bible. In fact, it only means that I might be reading the Bible correctly while you are not doing so.

Now if you cannot Know parables of God and the Little truths, How then can you Judge me, or any theologians with any confidence of its truth unto Gods words and spirit?

Again, all you are saying is that unless anyone agrees with your own personal interpretation, he must not be correct. that is nonsensical on its face. Of course, it is possible that you are the one who is wrong. There is no need to continue to dispute something as evident and indisputable as that.

You are not infallible. I am not infallible, and you are not infallible. Theologians are not infallible. Only God is infallible and he has given us his will and guidance in his infallible word. Not in any inspirations that set aside the Word of God, but in his Word.

Now I ask again, if you claim this is debate forum. Then One must respect and honor the rights and questions of all. which would include my questions.

Certainly. But if the answer I give is not to your liking--as has happened--do not claim that I didn't answer.

Unless you can come up in support of a denomination which you claim has perfection, or theological spiritual truth without error. My point is then valid.

No, it is not. Unless you can prove that none is correct, which you cannot, your claim is false.

And it was you who claimed that no denomination can be correct (in all its teachings). It is not up to the reader of that assertion to disprove it. It is up to you to stand behind the claim you made yourself without anyone else's help.

Now, this is the bottom line of a thread about the reliability of what any denomination teaches. You say that there is none that can possibly be correct in all its teaching, but you, on the other hand are.

Prove your contentions.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Proof, is I know what Talents are. Matthew 25;29.
Proof is you do not know what talents are. And also, not able to discern what this point means.

One personal note, I am commenting on proof, but Not reading " Albions posts". It is deception parsed, out of context words.:wave:
</IMG>

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus::)

Proverbs 1;22

" How long ye simple ones will you love simplicity? and scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate Knowledge?"

proverbs26;11.

" As a dog returneth unto his vomit: so a fool returneth unto his folly."

Proverbs 13;1

"A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke.":wave:

[Albion]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Proof, is I know what Talents are. Matthew 25;29.
Proof is you do not know what talents are. And also, not able to discern what this point means.[/quote]

In your personal opinion, you mean.

That's a major part of the disagreement between us, being as I believe that God gave his Word to all mankind, and did not in any way tell us that he'd be doling it out in private sessions to individuals in contradiction to his revealed Word.

Many people come onto forums like this one and say that the Holy Spirit contacted them and told them that they alone are to know the truth...and that it's not what the Bible has led every other disciple to believe. Yet, nowhere in the Bible is this said to happen, nor CAN God tell us one thing and then refute it at another time. God is not a liar and he "changeth not."

One additional problem. Many people who fancy themselves as having a special pipeline to God outside of His revelation in the Word, scripture, style themselves "prophets," say that they "prophesize" or mention in their self-promotion that the Bible speaks of there being prophets. But a prophet is not one who revises, with his pronouncements, what God has already revealed.

He may tell us that unless we repent, disasters await, or that the signs of Christ's coming again are present, or something like that. But no new doctrines and no changed meaning to scripture is part of such prophesies.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Proof, is I know what Talents are. Matthew 25;29.
Proof is you do not know what talents are. And also, not able to discern what this point means.

In your personal opinion, you mean.

That's a major part of the disagreement between us, being as I believe that God gave his Word to all mankind, and did not in any way tell us that he'd be doling it out in private sessions to individuals in contradiction to his revealed Word.

Many people come onto forums like this one and say that the Holy Spirit contacted them and told them that they alone are to know the truth...and that it's not what the Bible has led every other disciple to believe. Yet, nowhere in the Bible is this said to happen, nor CAN God tell us one thing and then refute it at another time. God is not a liar and he "changeth not."

One additional problem. Many people who fancy themselves as having a special pipeline to God outside of His revelation in the Word, scripture, style themselves "prophets," say that they "prophesize" or mention in their self-promotion that the Bible speaks of there being prophets. But a prophet is not one who revises, with his pronouncements, what God has already revealed.

He may tell us that unless we repent, disasters await, or that the signs of Christ's coming again are present, or something like that. But no new doctrines and no changed meaning to scripture is part of such prophesies.[/QUOTE]
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Dear Albion;

We certainly digress;

Now the truth is, that neither of Us are within the thread.

The thread is that Isaiah 29; use of " unlearned" and blind leading the blind.
Putting forth the theory, that todays denominations fulfill Isaiah 29;13. with denominations having " precepts of mens doctrines."

Now to stay within the rules, One should speak unto this theory. Whether Isaiah 29;13. matches todays denominations teachings, and as it relates to 29;13 precepts of men, scripture of how men, " learn there fear of God by precepts of men". To me your words confirm this theory of prophetic meaning.

Where the theory came from, or My walk with God, are all off thread, and is breaking the rules to speak on thread topics here.

Now if you wish to correctly speak to this thread. you must speak to how denominations are not related to isaiah 29;13. or that these scriptures do not mean this or something else.

But your opinion of my english abilities, or what some other scholar and teacher so interprets, is out of thread. Unless they are hear to make their point.

Now I would appreciate your not hijacking the thread, trying to make me the thread, and my merit with God the thread. Which is how Jehovahs witnesses are so trained to speak on scriptures. But to speak only unto the theory, that denominations, in their concepts, relate and fulfill, the Isaiah 29;13. prophecy about the " Unlearned". who Learn their fear of God by Precepts of men"

Now the truth of this, is that each and every theologian and teacher, will agree with this theory; if they apply it to denominations which they do not hold unto; based upon, and relating too, theological differences, of denominations. Unless your saying, that Other denominational precepts not of your denominational truths, are also truths of God. Which would mean God has many truths: There are many Interpretations, but only One God, and truth thereof.

Which No one argues against these points, except you. Which I find your arguments baseless, and shallow, and not of any merit unto the premise of the theory put forth.

One more point about proving theories:theories are not proven but disproven. and proof of true Interpretations and proof of God existence; proof can never be attained. which would disinherit the value of faith.

Now if there were proof of scriptural truths, or Gods existence, then all men would then with proof, have faith;, and if all men then had faith; what would faith then be worth, if all men had it.

That is what this thread is about, Faith. where it is rooted. And all I know of you, is that your faith is rooted in your yet Unnamed denomination. Which my theory suggests that yours also is made of " precepts of men" which have followers which actually do not learn doctrine and scriptures for themselves, but trust in theologians and teachers of their denominations. Which you all but confirm, that is truth about your conviction roots.

As i said before, God and I love thee. You brought up the word hate, which if it exists in this thread, it is not coming from me.

Parsing words, and quoting out of context, is when one divides the posts of another into many individual lines, that they might pick and choose how and what to speak upon. Which I view as very immature, disrespectful unto others, and Not civilized manner of discourse. You say you do not understand what Parsing words so means. For any time you divide my posts and cut them up, you are quoting me out of context.

I do not wish to discuss any other matter with you in this thread, other than what the thread is about. Isaiah 29;13.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.