Who are those Gentiles!

[Pray4Isrel]

Shalom All,
I was wondering... I have a question about Gentiles and who exactly the Gentiles are.
Now as far as I am concerned, since I am not Jewish, I am a Gentile. However, I have heard some say that if you are a believer in Yeshua, you are no longer Gentile... this smells of Replacement Theology to me, but I just want to understand better.
When I accepted Yeshua as my Messiah, I still remained a Gentile - meaning, I did not become Jewish by blood. However, I feel that I am grafted in - a Gentile grafted into the Olive Tree (Romans 11)
So help me out here.
Are Gentiles those that are not Jewish by birth, or are Gentiles a Spiritual term for the Lost or the pagans?

[wing of youth]

gentil, or goy... hmm... thats a good question, I'll ask my teachers about it tomorow.

[Pray4Isrel]

Toda Raba, I would love to hear what they have to say! :)

[koilias]

As far as Judaism is concerned, Gentiles can always convert to Judaism, but it is not encouraged. Neither was it encouraged in the early church. Paul was very vociferous against it, and Jesus no less so, "Woe to you scribes, Pharisees hypocrites, for you cross land and sea to find one convert and you make him twice the son of hell that you are." In other words, it is far better to remain a "righteous gentile" than become a "lapsed Jew", since being brought up apart from the law, it is too hard for gentiles to remain observant.

Nonetheless, gentiles were embraced in the early synagogues as coequal partners of the Kingdom of God. Moses was preached "to all people" all over the Roman empire. The critical difference between Paul and the Pharisees, is that Paul raises the status of gentiles by including them in the tribe. Barukh haShem, I'm grafted in! :clap: So, now I no longer need to be fully observant (except for the Noachide precepts, Acts 15) but I can enjoy the full blessings imparted to Jacob and his seed. Pretty stunning, eh?

[simchat_torah]

"vociferous"
Koilias - I haven't had to crack open my dictionary in over a year... thanks for the challenge... lol

Wings of Youth - Welcome! Who are you? ;)

[Sabian]

Is there a house of gentiles that enter the Kingdom?

[Sabian]

"Again this brings me back to Why is Paul concider a JEW when he is a Benjamite? wouldn't it be better to call him an IsraELite?
Were the Levite and Benjamites adopted into YAHUDAH at some point? Like around the time of the book of Esther or before?"

My understanding of this is that when the ten tribes were taken captive and carried out of the land of Israel (II Kings 17:6-23), not every single person of those tribes were taken. The full tribe of YAHUDAH was left behind (II Kings 17:18), and all the remnant of the house of Israel (the ten tribes) who were left in the land became over time identified by the same name as the only remaining full tribe - YAHUDAH, or the Jews as they're sometimes called. As I say, this is my understanding - it may be wrong, but I think I'm right on this.

I think it's more accurate to call them all Israelites, but the term Jew is just more commonly used than Israelite, which seems to be used mostly when referring to all 12 tribes around the time of the Exodus and afterwards until the events of I Kings 11:11-13 when the house of Israel and the house of YAHUDAH were separated from each other.

(H3034
éãä
ya^da^h
yaw-daw'
A primitive root; used only as denominative from H3027; literally to use (that is, hold out) the hand; physically to throw (a stone, an arrow) at or away; especially to revere or worship (with extended hands); intensively to bemoan (by wringing the hands): - cast (out), (make) confess (-ion), praise, shoot, (give) thank (-ful, -s, -sgiving).
Yahudah is a noun from the Hiphil verb form--causative--thankful, thanks, thanksgiving. I've researched the root Yadah in both BDB and my 501 Hebrew verbs and the primary meaning is to admit, acknowledge, confess, thank this form of the verb has only an indirect meaning of praise, not a primary meaning of praise.

[Sabian]

Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the YAHUDAH first, and also of
the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the YAHUDAH first, and also to
the Gentile:
Est 10:3 For Mordecai the YAHUDAH was next unto king Ahasuerus, and great among the YAHUDIM, and
accepted of the multitude of his brethren, seeking the wealth of his people, and speaking peace to all his
seed.
(10:4) Then Mardocheus said, God hath done these things.
(10:5) For I remember a dream which I saw concerning these matters, and nothing thereof hath failed.
(10:6) A little fountain became a river, and there was light, and the sun, and much water: this river is Esther,
whom the king married, and made queen:
(10:7) And the two dragons are I and Aman.
(10:8) And the nations were those that were assembled to destroy the name of the YAHUDIM:
(10:9) And my nation is this IsraEL, which cried to ELOHIM, and were saved: for YHWH hath saved HIS
people, and YHWH hath delivered us from all those evils, and ELOHIM hath wrought signs and great wonders,
which have not been done among the Gentiles.

(It's interesting that it is only speaking of Two types of people here. YAHUDAH or YAHUDIM and Gentiles)
<
(10:10) Therefore hath he made two lots, one for the people of ELOHIM, and another for all the Gentiles.
(10:11) And these two lots came at the hour, and time, and day of judgment, before ELOHIM among all
nations.
(10:12) So ELOHIM remembered his people, and justified his inheritance.
(10:13) Therefore those days shall be unto them in the month Adar, the fourteenth and fifteenth day of the
same month, with an assembly, and joy, and with gladness before ELOHIM, according to the generations for
ever among his people.
(11:1) In the fourth year of the reign of Ptolemeus and Cleopatra, Dositheus, who said he was a priest and
Levite, and Ptolemeus his son, brought this epistle of Phurim, which they said was the same, and that
Lysimachus the son of Ptolemeus, that was in Jerusalem, had interpreted it.

Then I checked out the verses on Adoption?

Adoption
The giving to any one the name and place and privileges of a son who is not a son by birth.
(1.) Natural. Thus Pharaoh's daughter adopted Moses (Exo_2:10), and Mordecai Esther (Est_2:7).
(2.) National. God adopted Israel (Exo_4:22; Deu_7:6; Hos_11:1; Rom_9:4).
(3.) Spiritual. An act of God's grace by which he brings men into the number of his redeemed family, and
makes them partakers of all the blessings he has provided for them. Adoption represents the new relations
into which the believer is introduced by justification, and the privileges connected therewith, viz., an interest in
God's peculiar love (Joh_17:23; Rom_5:5-8), a spiritual nature (2Pe_1:4; Joh_1:13), the possession of a
spirit becoming children of God (1Pe_1:14; 2Jo_1:4; Rom_8:15-21; Gal_5:1; Heb_2:15), present protection,
consolation, supplies (Luk_12:27-32; Joh_14:18; 1Co_3:21-23; 2Co_1:4), fatherly chastisements
(Heb_12:5-11), and a future glorious inheritance (Rom_8:17, Rom_8:23; Jam_2:5; Phi_3:21).

, and the promises;
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by YAHSHUA MESSIYAH to HIMSELF,
according to the good pleasure of HIS will, is known:
Whereas the way of wicked men
shall quite be overthrown.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of
adoption, whereby we cry, ABBA, FATHER.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves
groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 9:4 Who are IsraELites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the
giving of the law, and the service of ELOHIM

[Sabian]

Gentiles

(Heb. Gôyîm; Gr. ethne, ethnikoi, Hellenes; Vulg. Gentes,
Gentiles, Graeci).

A word of Latin origin and usually employed in the plural. In
the English versions of both Testaments it collectively
designates the nations distinct from the Jewish people. The
basis of this distinction is that, as descendants of Abraham, the
Jews considered themselves, and were in fact, before the
coming of Christ, the chosen people of God. As the non-Jewish
nations did not worship the true God and generally indulged in
immoral practices, the term Gôyîm "Gentiles" has often times in
the Sacred Writings, in the Talmud, etc., a disparaging meaning.
Since the spread of Christianity,((( the word Gentiles designates,
in theological parlance, those who are neither Jews nor
Christians.))) In the United States, the Mormons use it of persons
not belonging to their sect. See PROSELYTES.

Catholic dictionary.

[Pray4Isrel]

Sabian, that definition reeks of Replacement Theology!

[Sabian]

OK

[Pray4Isrel]

I'm saying the following parts that I put in bold are quite, well um, bold, don't you think? Their "definition" seems to be of thier own views/opinions:


Gentiles

(Heb. Gôyîm; Gr. ethne, ethnikoi, Hellenes; Vulg. Gentes,
Gentiles, Graeci).

A word of Latin origin and usually employed in the plural. In
the English versions of both Testaments it collectively
designates the nations distinct from the Jewish people. The
basis of this distinction is that, as descendants of Abraham, the
Jews considered themselves, and were in fact, before the
coming of Christ, the chosen people of God. As the non-Jewish
nations did not worship the true God and generally indulged in
immoral practices, the term Gôyîm "Gentiles" has often times in
the Sacred Writings, in the Talmud, etc., a disparaging meaning.
Since the spread of Christianity,((( the word Gentiles designates,
in theological parlance, those who are neither Jews nor
Christians.))) In the United States, the Mormons use it of persons
not belonging to their sect. See PROSELYTES.

Catholic dictionary.

[Sabian]

Most, but certainly not all of the gentiles that Paul and others refered to as gentiles were not exactly what WE would call gentiles. Many of these people were offspring of the lost tribes of YsraEL. There were ten of those tribes taken captive by Assyria around 725BCE.

A few verses:
Mat 10:5 These twelve YAHSHUA sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of YsraEL.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 15:22 Behold, a Canaanite woman came out from those borders, and cried, saying, "Have mercy on me, MASTER, you son of David! My daughter is severely demonized!"
Mat 15:23 But he answered her not a word. His disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away; for she cries after us."
Mat 15:24 But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Mat 15:25 But she came and worshiped him, saying, "MASTER, help me."
Mat 15:26 But he answered, "It is not appropriate to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
Mat 15:27 But she said, "Yes, Lord, but even the dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."

So, some of the gentiles were part of some tribe, and others were not.

Just as the sons of Ishmael of whom largely the Islamic world is composed amounts to around 1.4 billion people they say. Can you imagine the population of the decendants of the tribes of Israel, and YAHUDAH, Benjamin, and Levi. The birthright blessings went from Esau to Jacob named YsraEL, and to Joseph. Just imagine the numbers. Today, I think most of them speak English.

At the time YAHSHUA sent the Talmid out to the world for the lost sheep of YisraEL weren't there IsraELites in far away places like Spain? Isn't that were Shaul was going to go to before he died? It is said there were others in Asia and Africa as well so that it would be quite appropiate for YAHAHUA to talk about his lost sheep. On the other hand, wasn't there a whole world already that was not part of YsraEL? Being that YsraEL comprised a smaller percentage of that world it stands to reason that IsraELites today, known and unknown, would make up a smaller percentage of the earth population. I can see historically were the crypto YAHUDIM are mingled with the world population but I can't buy the Ephraim/Mannaseh position of whole nations being YsraEL's lost sheep.

The crypto YAHUDIM are the ones that were forced to convert (to Catholicism) under penalty of death, the Sepharditas from the Iberian peninsula. They went into the Meditarranean and to the Americas and are just waking up as YAHuoéh's ruach is calling.

[SonWorshipper]

Exacolic! ;)

[Sabian]

Exacolic! ;)
That word is higher then my IQ

[SonWorshipper]

I coined it in reference to P4I's highlighted reference ;)

[SonWorshipper]

Perhaps I should have said Exactholic? :D

[Sabian]

Shalom All,
I was wondering... I have a question about Gentiles and who exactly the Gentiles are.
Now as far as I am concerned, since I am not Jewish, I am a Gentile. However, I have heard some say that if you are a believer in Yeshua, you are no longer Gentile... this smells of Replacement Theology to me, but I just want to understand better.
When I accepted Yeshua as my Messiah, I still remained a Gentile - meaning, I did not become Jewish by blood. However, I feel that I am grafted in - a Gentile grafted into the Olive Tree (Romans 11)
So help me out here.
Are Gentiles those that are not Jewish by birth, or are Gentiles a Spiritual term for the Lost or the pagans?
The reason I gave you the Catholic definition of gentile is to show you that even the Catholics definition of gentile means A Pagan.

Replacement Theology seems to be some christian made up term, like trinity.

Can you find a definition of Gentile that fits your needs?
All the ones I have found Imply Pagan.

It just seems you do not like the definition of Gentile?

[SonWorshipper]

I think that P4I wrote her OP in answer or questioning of another thread in this forum which the title eludes me right now. That is why she was questioning who these Gentiles are/ Were/ are.

Perhaps the division should be as Gentile or righteious Gentile, I believe that is the Jewish view or standpoint?

Or Gentile as opposed to heathen.