What do you think about this - origins on Christian rock

[tr0pica1rain]

I was in my hotmail account and the link to this article caught my eye. What do you think about this and also the recent change in churches going more contemporary and preaching more relationship with Jesus and not religion (which is what I believe). Is this where the idea/revolution came from?

warning: the article may be disconcerting to some people (as it was to me).

http://www.slate.com/id/2171430/?GT1=10346

[Zecryphon]

I was in my hotmail account and the link to this article caught my eye. What do you think about this and also the recent change in churches going more contemporary and preaching more relationship with Jesus and not religion (which is what I believe). Is this where the idea/revolution came from?

warning: the article may be disconcerting to some people (as it was to me).

http://www.slate.com/id/2171430/?GT1=10346
Oh I'd be happy if the church actually preached about a few things most contemporary-influenced, seeker-friendly churches wouldn't touch with a ten foot shepherd's crook. Things like: the law of God, how every person on the planet has violated that law, which makes us all sinners, and how by being sinners we have earned our due reward of death and Hell from God. Once a person understands the predicament their own actions have put them in, then the reason for the savior we have in Christ Jesus becomes apparent and does not appear as foolishness.

But what I've just presented will empty out a church in oh, about, 5 seconds. No one in this day and age can handle being told they're sinners. No, they're all good and because they're good, God just loves them so much, that He sent His Son to die on a cross to take their punishment. Oh, and all this salvation can be theirs if they'll just ask Jesus into their hearts and then their life will be a giant bed of roses and they'll get everything they've ever wanted and so much more, because, God, just loves them to pieces. The main problem with this type of teaching is the obvious question it raises. If I'm good, why do I need a savior? And furthermore, why do I need a relationship of any kind, with this savior, whom I'm convinced I don't even need becaue I'm a good person to begin with.

Now that that rant is over with, let me engage in another. Christians always reference the Bible when they say we are to be in the world, but not of it. Christian rock smacks of nothing more than Christians trying to be cool and relelvant by playing the music of the world, which they are not supposed to be a part of. It's hypocrisy at it's most pure. Christian artists must actually think the world is made up of morons. They must think that if they can trick the world out there into thinking Christian rock or any type of Christian music is as cool as the secular version, then people will hear the gospel message, and we can have a ministry! Oh yay! We're serving the Lord! Nonsense. These artists are doing nothing more than pulling a bait and switch routine. They bring their targets in with rock music, and quick, while they've got their attention, hit them with a gospel message of redemption through Christ, that the listener won't understand properly because their crimes against God and the reason they need a savior to begin with has not been made clear.

We can not as Christians, seriously condemn any type of secular music like heavy metal, always a favorite target of the Christians, hip-hop, hard rock, contemporary, etc. and then turn around and praise Christians musicians for producing the same type of music, because they're doing it under the pretense of serving God. How stupid do the CCM artists and record companies think we really are? Do they honestly believe that if a Christian plays the same notes and chord progressions, scales and melodies that it's somehow okay, simply because the people doing it are Christians? Or maybe what Christians should really be objecting to is the lyrical content of songs. In which case I have to say that the lyrics to most of what I hear being produced by Christian artists is far more damaging to it's listeners, because it is not centered at all on the cross or God or Jesus, but instead is focused on me and what God can do for me today.

Don't believe me? Listen to Christian music. That's not sound theology being presented there. It's blatant "me-ology" recorded over musical sounds. It's a joke. I have more respect for the secular artists regardless of genre, because at least they are honest about what they do and why they do it. There is no bait-and-switch routine going on there. There is no hard rock lure, with a gospel hook on the end of it. If you're gonna preach the gospel, be honest about it. The world may not want to hear it, but at least they won't think you're trying to dupe them into buying into something they never asked for in the first place. I've found that if you want to talk to someone about Christianity, just straight up tell them you want to do so. Honesty, really is the best policy here. Or is that just something we tell our kids, and forget as we grow older?

[New_Wineskin]

I was in my hotmail account and the link to this article caught my eye. What do you think about this and also the recent change in churches going more contemporary and preaching more relationship with Jesus and not religion (which is what I believe). Is this where the idea/revolution came from?

warning: the article may be disconcerting to some people (as it was to me).

http://www.slate.com/id/2171430/?GT1=10346


I think that it is great . As far as relationship goes ... if it isn't about relationship , it is just another pagan religion .

[holo]

That was a cool article. I've heard about Lonnie Frisbee and how he, like a lot of the men God has used mightily, also struggled with some sort of sin or addiction.

Personally, I love what Petra did in the late seventies and the early eighties. Truly uplifting music.

[ALiberalTeen]

Meh, I don't care for Christian Music other then Hymns, it just seems so...unmotivated or untalented.

[searchingforpeace]

I love CCM. I love hymns too. I don't see why it matters if the beat of the music is different than something traditional, or the vocals are different, or if it makes one feel good. I love to praise the Lord through music. When I am having a bad day and can't seem to connect to the Lord via prayer or studying of His Word, I can stick on my MP3 player, and praise His name in song.

[Philippe2]

Meh, I don't care for Christian Music other then Hymns, it just seems so...unmotivated or untalented.
So young, but so right as well!

[RenaeN]

I don't care for much Christian music. Alot of it seems like normal secular music with just clean words. The thoughts seem no different. There are some songs that are different, but on the whole, I stay away from it other than most acapella.:)

[ALiberalTeen]

I don't care for much Christian music. Alot of it seems like normal secular music with just clean words. The thoughts seem no different. There are some songs that are different, but on the whole, I stay away from it other than most acapella.:)
QFT

[Philippe2]

Does the music glorify God or does it satisfy your own taste? Remember why you are doing it. You are not singing or listening to the music for yourself, but to glorify God.

[HeyHomie]

Remember that something's origins are not relevant to its value today. This is called the Genetic Fallacy.

[WarEagle]

What do you think about this and also the recent change in churches going more contemporary and preaching more relationship with Jesus and not religion (which is what I believe). Is this where the idea/revolution came from?

When we founded our church back in '06, one of the things we decided is that we're going to stick to the great hymns of the faith and not have contemporary music.

I don't know what you mean by "preaching more relationship with Jesus and not religion", but we're very strong on expository preaching. Doctrine is very important to us.

[WarEagle]

Oh I'd be happy if the church actually preached about a few things most contemporary-influenced, seeker-friendly churches wouldn't touch with a ten foot shepherd's crook. Things like: the law of God, how every person on the planet has violated that law, which makes us all sinners, and how by being sinners we have earned our due reward of death and Hell from God. Once a person understands the predicament their own actions have put them in, then the reason for the savior we have in Christ Jesus becomes apparent and does not appear as foolishness.

But what I've just presented will empty out a church in oh, about, 5 seconds.

No one in this day and age can handle being told they're sinners. No, they're all good and because they're good, God just loves them so much, that He sent His Son to die on a cross to take their punishment. Oh, and all this salvation can be theirs if they'll just ask Jesus into their hearts and then their life will be a giant bed of roses and they'll get everything they've ever wanted and so much more, because, God, just loves them to pieces. The main problem with this type of teaching is the obvious question it raises. If I'm good, why do I need a savior? And furthermore, why do I need a relationship of any kind, with this savior, whom I'm convinced I don't even need becaue I'm a good person to begin with.

Now that that rant is over with, let me engage in another. Christians always reference the Bible when they say we are to be in the world, but not of it. Christian rock smacks of nothing more than Christians trying to be cool and relelvant by playing the music of the world, which they are not supposed to be a part of. It's hypocrisy at it's most pure. Christian artists must actually think the world is made up of morons. They must think that if they can trick the world out there into thinking Christian rock or any type of Christian music is as cool as the secular version, then people will hear the gospel message, and we can have a ministry! Oh yay! We're serving the Lord! Nonsense. These artists are doing nothing more than pulling a bait and switch routine. They bring their targets in with rock music, and quick, while they've got their attention, hit them with a gospel message of redemption through Christ, that the listener won't understand properly because their crimes against God and the reason they need a savior to begin with has not been made clear.

We can not as Christians, seriously condemn any type of secular music like heavy metal, always a favorite target of the Christians, hip-hop, hard rock, contemporary, etc. and then turn around and praise Christians musicians for producing the same type of music, because they're doing it under the pretense of serving God. How stupid do the CCM artists and record companies think we really are? Do they honestly believe that if a Christian plays the same notes and chord progressions, scales and melodies that it's somehow okay, simply because the people doing it are Christians? Or maybe what Christians should really be objecting to is the lyrical content of songs. In which case I have to say that the lyrics to most of what I hear being produced by Christian artists is far more damaging to it's listeners, because it is not centered at all on the cross or God or Jesus, but instead is focused on me and what God can do for me today.

Don't believe me? Listen to Christian music. That's not sound theology being presented there. It's blatant "me-ology" recorded over musical sounds. It's a joke. I have more respect for the secular artists regardless of genre, because at least they are honest about what they do and why they do it. There is no bait-and-switch routine going on there. There is no hard rock lure, with a gospel hook on the end of it. If you're gonna preach the gospel, be honest about it. The world may not want to hear it, but at least they won't think you're trying to dupe them into buying into something they never asked for in the first place. I've found that if you want to talk to someone about Christianity, just straight up tell them you want to do so. Honesty, really is the best policy here. Or is that just something we tell our kids, and forget as we grow older?

Excellent post.

In another thread, an atheist told me that Bible believing Christianity was a failure because it chases so many people away.

If Bible based Christianity is chasing people away, then the problem isn't with Bible based Christianity, it's with the people who don't want to submit to the authority of God's word.

As far as the terrible state of Christian music, if you ever listen to Way of the Master, one of the games they play is to play a modern Christian song and a secular song back to back and ask callers to tell which is Christian and which is secular. More often than not, they can't tell the difference.

[holo]

If Bible based Christianity is chasing people away, then the problem isn't with Bible based Christianity, it's with the people who don't want to submit to the authority of God's word.No, if your message is chasing people away, the problem is most definately with your message. The gospel is GOOD news, it's the ministry of Life, it's reconciliation and healing, it's God's power of SALVATION. If it scares religious people away, that might be a good sign, but if your gospel scares Average Joe away, it's not the gospel.

[WarEagle]

No, if your message is chasing people away, the problem is most definately with your message.

OK. What do you see the problem with the Bible as?

The gospel is GOOD news, it's the ministry of Life, it's reconciliation and healing, it's God's power of SALVATION.

The Gospel is good news. However, if you're preaching a Gospel that appeals to making men feel good about themselves, you're not preaching the Biblical Gospel.

You can't share the good news of the Gospel without first sharing the bad news that we're sinners and, apart from Jesus Christ, will be judged by God.

If it scares religious people away, that might be a good sign, but if your gospel scares Average Joe away, it's not the gospel.

Please see Matthew 7:12-14

Of course it's going to scare the sinner away because it requires him to take up a cross and die. Man's sinful nature requires that he serve his flesh and make his own sin and his own desires king of his heart.

What Jesus is talking about is a royal revolution in which the king of self is taken from the throne and the King of Kings installed in His rightful place there.

Any good and loyal subject will protect his king and it's no different with those who serve sin.

[holo]

OK. What do you see the problem with the Bible as?I have no problem with the bible.

The Gospel is good news. However, if you're preaching a Gospel that appeals to making men feel good about themselves, you're not preaching the Biblical Gospel.True. It's not about feeling good aobut yourself, but rather to feel good about God - htat is, learning that God LVOES you and has forgiven you and accepted yo and will forever accept you and that you can live your life in a relationship with your Creator. That nothing is impossible for Him, that you don't have to live in, of through and for yourself anymore, but that He IS life.

Christ came to give us eternal life, and life is to know Him.

You can't share the good news of the Gospel without first sharing the bad news that we're sinnersSure you can. Jesus Himself didn't stick to that formula either. Salvation is more than an issue about morality.

Please see Matthew 7:12-14The narrow gate stuff? Yeah, the gate used to be narrow. Few even found it, and nobody ever walked it. The gate was the law, and God had chosen only Israel. Jesus, however, isn't a narrow gate. He IS the WAY, and He will reject NOONE who comes to Him.

Of course it's going to scare the sinner awayBut Jesus tend to DRAW sinners to Himself. The only people He scared away were the religious people.

Jesus doesn't scare sinners away, on the contrary, He looks for them and longs to be with them.

[Zecryphon]

Excellent post.

In another thread, an atheist told me that Bible believing Christianity was a failure because it chases so many people away.

If Bible based Christianity is chasing people away, then the problem isn't with Bible based Christianity, it's with the people who don't want to submit to the authority of God's word.

As far as the terrible state of Christian music, if you ever listen to Way of the Master, one of the games they play is to play a modern Christian song and a secular song back to back and ask callers to tell which is Christian and which is secular. More often than not, they can't tell the difference.
"As far as the terrible state of Christian music, if you ever listen to Way of the Master,"

I listen to that podcast every day, because I can't listen to the show live. I don't have satellite radio at work or time to be on the net streaming it in, when it's on.

"one of the games they play is to play a modern Christian song and a secular song back to back and ask callers to tell which is Christian and which is secular. More often than not, they can't tell the difference."

I know and that's truly heart breaking. Play something like "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" or "What a Friend We Have in Jesus" or "Old Rugged Cross" against a secular song and people would be able to tell which is which correctly. Why? Because they're different! LOL

One thing I do not like about Way of the Master though is their hypocrisy about secular music. They rail against heavy metal music all the time, how it's of the devil and demonic in origin, and yet what is that song they use as an intro to Twised Scripture? It's "We're Not Gonna Take It" by Twisted Sister. So why is a Christian podcast using heavy metal music to promote one of thier segments, if heavy metal music is so destructive and evil? Because they're hypocrites! LOL I've emailed them about this and never got an answer, I think I know why. LOL Still love the show though.

[WarEagle]

I have no problem with the bible

I'm glad to see that you've changed your tune.

True. It's not about feeling good aobut yourself, but rather to feel good about God - htat is, learning that God LVOES you and has forgiven you and accepted yo and will forever accept you and that you can live your life in a relationship with your Creator.

So, what if God hasn't forgiven you? What if He hasn't accepted you? What do you do about the people who are at emnity with God and face His wrath on judgement day?

Sure you can. Jesus Himself didn't stick to that formula either. Salvation is more than an issue about morality.

Can you give me an example of Jesus sharing the Gospel without first sharing the law?

Jesus, however, isn't a narrow gate.

Actually, Jesus is very exclusive. He tells us that He will reject anyone who's not willing to lay down their lives and take up their cross for His sake.

He IS the WAY, and He will reject NOONE who comes to Him.

"And they will say to Me 'Lord, Lord'..."

Jesus doesn't scare sinners away, on the contrary, He looks for them and longs to be with them.

Really? Why don't you go to the General Apologetics forums and try to share your Gospel According to Oprah and see whether they accept that or not.

[holo]

So, what if God hasn't forgiven you? What if He hasn't accepted you?But He has, though.

What do you do about the people who are at emnity with God and face His wrath on judgement day?I don't do anything. God does. He may do it through me if He wishes to. I'm a witness, He may use what I've seen.

Can you give me an example of Jesus sharing the Gospel without first sharing the law?To be truthful, Jesus never actually shared the gospel, because He had to die and be raised from the dead before the gospel was actually in effect. Anyhow, Jesus usually only mentioned the law and talked about sin when He was talking to/arguing with the jews. When people came to Him to get healed, He would typically just say "your faith has saved you."

Actually, Jesus is very exclusive. He tells us that He will reject anyone who's not willing to lay down their lives and take up their cross for His sake.Yes, that's what people would have to do if they wanted to follow Him. They would also have to sell everything they owned and be willing to leave their families etc. In effect, NOBODY, including you, could ever actually be worthy of Christ. But that's the whole point - when the gospel was revealed, it was made clear that salvation does NOT depend on your ability to lay down or pick up anything. It's not about your worthiness AT ALL, it's about HIS LOVE. If you're still telling people that they must make themselves worthy of Christ, you are both preaching a false and diluted gospel, and assuming (very falsely) that you yourself have somehow managed to get worthy of salvation.

"And they will say to Me 'Lord, Lord'..."Yes, people who won't come to Christ for salvation, but rather point to their own works and miracles and abilities and performances.

Really?Yes, really. Christ was known as a FRIEND of sinners. Sinners didn't have a problem with Jesus, but the religious folks did.

Why don't you go to the General Apologetics forums and try to share your Gospel According to Oprah.I have no idea what the "gospel according to Oprah" is.

[WarEagle]

But He has, though.

The Bible tells us that God hasn't forgiven and accepted everyone. There are many people, most people, in fact, who face His wrath come judgement day.

I don't do anything. God does. He may do it through me if He wishes to. I'm a witness, He may use what I've seen.

God has commanded us to share the Gospel with them. If God has commanded us to, then don't you think you should?

To be truthful, Jesus never actually shared the gospel, because He had to die and be raised from the dead before the gospel was actually in effect.

I don't know what Bible you're reading, but Jesus shared the Gospel many times.

Anyhow, Jesus usually only mentioned the law and talked about sin when He was talking to/arguing with the jews. When people came to Him to get healed, He would typically just say "your faith has saved you."

And if we were talking about healing, you might have a point, but we're not. We're talking about salvation.

If you're still telling people that they must make themselves worthy of Christ, you are both preaching a false and diluted gospel, and assuming (very falsely) that you yourself have somehow managed to get worthy of salvation.

We cannot make ourselves worthy of Christ, but we can humble ourselves before Him and follow His command to die to ourselves and take up our cross and follow Him.

Yes, really. Christ was known as a FRIEND of sinners. Sinners didn't have a problem with Jesus, but the religious folks did.

That's fine. But how many of those "friends" repented and put their faith in Him?

I have no idea what the "gospel according to Oprah" is.

It is the gospel that says that god loves us and accepts us just as we are and all we have to do is to just go on about our way and make some sort of esoteric "acceptance" of Jesus and we'll be saved.

[holo]

The Bible tells us that God hasn't forgiven and accepted everyone.Yes it does. He died for ALL of us while we were still sinners. He took ALL sin upon Himself on the cross. There's not one single person Jesus hasn't died for. But we must choose whether or not to accept that for ourselves.

God has commanded us to share the Gospel with them. If God has commanded us to, then don't you think you should?I do share the gospel. But it is God who saves people. He doesn't need me. He could raise up rocks to praise Him.

BTW, do you have a particular bible passage in mind when you say we are commanded to share the gospel?

I don't know what Bible you're reading, but Jesus shared the Gospel many times.Yes, but the gospel wasn't fully revealed yet. That came after Jesus had left and sent His Spirit. Paul was entrusted with the task of revealing and preaching the gospel to the gentiles, so we need to see even Christ's teachings through that lens. As He said Himself, there was so much He couldn't tell, and it would be GOOD for us that He left, so He could send His Spirit. We are lucky to know Christ after the Spirit instead of after the flesh. We are better off than His disciples were.

And if we were talking about healing, you might have a point, but we're not. We're talking about salvation.But salvation, too, is by faith. Just look at the thief on the cross. All he did was believe.

We cannot make ourselves worthy of Christ, but we can humble ourselves before Him and follow His command to die to ourselves and take up our cross and follow Him.Yes, dying to self is good. But you have already died. You were crucified with Him. :)

That's fine. But how many of those "friends" repented and put their faith in Him?Nicodemus springs to mind, unless I got his name mixed up. He was a tax collector who simply ate with Jesus. He didn't preach to him, but His very prescence made the tax collector repent.

It is the gospel that says that god loves us and accepts us just as we are and all we have to do is to just go on about our way and make some sort of esoteric "acceptance" of Jesus and we'll be saved.OK. Didn't know that (don't watch Oprah much).

[WarEagle]

Yes it does.

Please show where and please explain why, if God has forgiven everyone, the Bible tells us that some will be judged as wicked and sent to Hell.

I do share the gospel. But it is God who saves people. He doesn't need me. He could raise up rocks to praise Him.

Could you please explain how you share the Gospel without first using the law?

BTW, do you have a particular bible passage in mind when you say we are commanded to share the gospel?

Yes, I have several.

Yes, but the gospel wasn't fully revealed yet.

Then why do we see the Gospel being preached?

Nicodemus springs to mind, unless I got his name mixed up. He was a tax collector who simply ate with Jesus. He didn't preach to him, but His very prescence made the tax collector repent.

I think you're thinking of Zacchaeus. Luke 19 doesn't really tell us a whole lot about what happened between Jesus and Zacchaeus but one of the things that we do know is that Zacchaeus is already familiar with Jesus. I can't say that Jesus did or didn't preach the law to Him, but the text is clear that Zacchaeus is already on board with what Jesus is preaching

While the text doesn't say what Jesus taught, exactly, and we should always be careful about making inferences from what scripture doesn't say, I don't see any reason to believe that Jesus deviated from His usual message of law to the proud, grace to the humble.

[rosiecotton]

Christians always reference the Bible when they say we are to be in the world, but not of it. Christian rock smacks of nothing more than Christians trying to be cool and relelvant by playing the music of the world, which they are not supposed to be a part of. It's hypocrisy at it's most pure. Christian artists must actually think the world is made up of morons. They must think that if they can trick the world out there into thinking Christian rock or any type of Christian music is as cool as the secular version, then people will hear the gospel message, and we can have a ministry! Oh yay! We're serving the Lord! Nonsense. These artists are doing nothing more than pulling a bait and switch routine. They bring their targets in with rock music, and quick, while they've got their attention, hit them with a gospel message of redemption through Christ, that the listener won't understand properly because their crimes against God and the reason they need a savior to begin with has not been made clear.

We can not as Christians, seriously condemn any type of secular music like heavy metal, always a favorite target of the Christians, hip-hop, hard rock, contemporary, etc. and then turn around and praise Christians musicians for producing the same type of music, because they're doing it under the pretense of serving God. How stupid do the CCM artists and record companies think we really are? Do they honestly believe that if a Christian plays the same notes and chord progressions, scales and melodies that it's somehow okay, simply because the people doing it are Christians? Or maybe what Christians should really be objecting to is the lyrical content of songs. In which case I have to say that the lyrics to most of what I hear being produced by Christian artists is far more damaging to it's listeners, because it is not centered at all on the cross or God or Jesus, but instead is focused on me and what God can do for me today.

Don't believe me? Listen to Christian music. That's not sound theology being presented there. It's blatant "me-ology" recorded over musical sounds. It's a joke. I have more respect for the secular artists regardless of genre, because at least they are honest about what they do and why they do it. There is no bait-and-switch routine going on there. There is no hard rock lure, with a gospel hook on the end of it. If you're gonna preach the gospel, be honest about it. The world may not want to hear it, but at least they won't think you're trying to dupe them into buying into something they never asked for in the first place. I've found that if you want to talk to someone about Christianity, just straight up tell them you want to do so. Honesty, really is the best policy here. Or is that just something we tell our kids, and forget as we grow older?

I get so sick of hearing people putting down Christian artists saying that their songs are 'all about me' and nothing to do with God. I'm so glad you know their lives and their hearts.
I happen to love Third Day and have all their albums. If you've never listened to them, then you are missing out on some awesome music.
They are Christians through and through.
God gave them the gift of music, what is wrong with using it to glorify God?

[Zecryphon]

I get so sick of hearing people putting down Christian artists saying that their songs are 'all about me' and nothing to do with God. I'm so glad you know their lives and their hearts.
I happen to love Third Day and have all their albums. If you've never listened to them, then you are missing out on some awesome music.
They are Christians through and through.
God gave them the gift of music, what is wrong with using it to glorify God?
"I get so sick of hearing people putting down Christian artists saying that their songs are 'all about me' and nothing to do with God. I'm so glad you know their lives and their hearts."

My statement about Christian artists not focusing on God in their music but instead on themselves, has nothing to do with their lives or their hearts, but rather the lyrical content of their songs. So you can take your blatantly false and pathetic allegations about what I've actually said here and stuff them in the trash where they belong.

"I happen to love Third Day and have all their albums. If you've never listened to them, then you are missing out on some awesome music."

I have listened to them and a lot of other artists in this genre as well. I even like some artists in this genre, but that doesn't change the truth about their music.

"They are Christians through and through.
God gave them the gift of music, what is wrong with using it to glorify God?"

Nothing, but why can't it just be music? Why does the label Christian have to precede it? Why can't it be rock music that focuses on Christ or hip-hop that focuses on God? Why do we need the label Christian in front of it? Christians need that label so they can lie to themselves about what they're really listening to. It's not the music of the world, it's not THAT rock music or THAT metal that the world listens to, no it's clean Christian music.
Why is it okay to listen to Stryper, but not Judas Priest? Why is it okay to listen to Barren Cross but not Iron Maiden? Why is it okay to listen to Jaci Velazquez, but not Britney Spears? Why is it okay to listen to Third Day but not Nirvana? The truth about Christian music is this, it's no different than what the world listens to. Compare CCM songs to traditional hymns and you'll see the difference immediately in lyrical content and focus of the song.

Here's an example. I've picked Amazing by Point of Grace as my example. I've never heard this song, I don't own this CD, but I do have another one of their CDs and I thought a song called Amazing would be about Christ or God in some way. Maybe about how it's so amazing that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us or how it's amazing that God extended grace to us by sending Christ to die for our sins. But look at the lyrics:

Consider your needs of the past
When somebody helped but you never asked
Now think of the joy you received
When you reached out to someone else in need

CHORUS(*):

Cause some days we laugh
Some days we cry
Some days we hold it deep inside
Though each day is a gift from on high

CHORUS:

But what I find
Amazing
The love we give the love we gain
Amazing
There's so much more that's in Jesus name
Sometimes it's hard to see
That it's more blessed to give than receive
Learning from different mistakes
Learning to give instead of just take
But when we all start to blend
We'll be like colors surrounding the sun as it sets

CHORUS(*)
CHORUS
CHORUS(*)
CHORUS

Amazing

Sometimes it's hard to see
That it's more blessed to give than receive
Consider your needs of the past
When somebody helped but you never asked

One mention of Jesus in the whole song and this is put out by a group of women who are Christians??? Looks like this song is more about them than about Jesus, if it even is about Jesus.

Now let's take a look at a more traditional hymn called The Lord's My Shepherd, I'll Not Want:


The Lord's my shepherd, I'll not want;
He makes me down to lie
In pastures green; he leadeth me
The quiet waters by.

My soul he doth restore again,
And me to walk doth make
Within the paths of righteousness,
E'en for his own name's sake.

Yea, though I walk in death's dark vale,
Yet will I fear no ill:
For thou art with me, and thy rod
And staff me comfort still.

My table thou hast furnished
In presence of my foes;
My head thou dost with oil anoint
And my cup overflows.

Goodness and mercy all my life
Shall surely follow me;
And in God's house for evermore
My dwelling-place shall be.

See the difference?

[archetype]

these are some of the most ridiculous posts i've read. what does it matter what the MUSI|C sounds like as long as the song is giving GLORY to GOD and spreading the MESSAGE. i happen to be a musician(drummer) and i listen to Christian metal/hardcore/metalcore(whatever you want to call it) and i tell you their lyrics are Spirit filled. who cares what the music sounds like? get off your high horse and quiting judging musicians

[archetype]

i agree:clap::amen::thumbsup:

[Zecryphon]

these are some of the most ridiculous posts i've read. what does it matter what the MUSI|C sounds like as long as the song is giving GLORY to GOD and spreading the MESSAGE. i happen to be a musician(drummer) and i listen to Christian metal/hardcore/metalcore(whatever you want to call it) and i tell you their lyrics are Spirit filled. who cares what the music sounds like? get off your high horse and quiting judging musicians
"these are some of the most ridiculous posts i've read."

Which posts struck you as ridiculous? Because for me the issue isn't really the kind of music or what the music sounds like, but rather the theological content of the lyrics.

"what does it matter what the MUSI|C sounds like as long as the song is giving GLORY to GOD and spreading the MESSAGE."

Which musicians do you feel do this with their music? Can you provide some examples of Spirit-filled lyrics to be evaluated? Can you name some songs that deliver a sound law and gospel presentation that truly does spread the message of Christ in the time allowed by that song?

"i happen to be a musician(drummer) and i listen to Christian metal/hardcore/metalcore(whatever you want to call it) and i tell you their lyrics are Spirit filled. who cares what the music sounds like? get off your high horse and quiting judging musicians"

Here's a tip, when you're going to condemn the act of passing judgment on a group of people for their behavior, it's wise if you don't do engage in the same type of judgmental behavior yourself. That's called hypocrisy. You don't want to be a hypocrite do you? Because in this post, that's how you've presented yourself. First by declaring some of the posts to be the most ridiculous you've ever read, and you were acting hypocritical again at the end when you accused the people in this thread of being on a high horse.

[rosiecotton]

Honestly, now, I'm really sorry I even responded to this. Because I really don't feel like arguing about something so trivial. I have more important things going on in my life right now I'm dealing with, like all the crap that continues going on in our church, and just losing the best youth minister we've had in a long time. We have a lot of hurt youth and hurt people in our church and that's more important than arguing about Christian music.
So, ya'll can continue discussing amongst yourselves.

[archetype]

"these are some of the most ridiculous posts i've read."

Which posts struck you as ridiculous? Because for me the issue isn't really the kind of music or what the music sounds like, but rather the theological content of the lyrics.

"what does it matter what the MUSI|C sounds like as long as the song is giving GLORY to GOD and spreading the MESSAGE."

Which musicians do you feel do this with their music? Can you provide some examples of Spirit-filled lyrics to be evaluated? Can you name some songs that deliver a sound law and gospel presentation that truly does spread the message of Christ in the time allowed by that song?

"i happen to be a musician(drummer) and i listen to Christian metal/hardcore/metalcore(whatever you want to call it) and i tell you their lyrics are Spirit filled. who cares what the music sounds like? get off your high horse and quiting judging musicians"

Here's a tip, when you're going to condemn the act of passing judgment on a group of people for their behavior, it's wise if you don't do engage in the same type of judgmental behavior yourself. That's called hypocrisy. You don't want to be a hypocrite do you? Because in this post, that's how you've presented yourself. First by declaring some of the posts to be the most ridiculous you've ever read, and you were acting hypocritical again at the end when you accused the people in this thread of being on a high horse.
buddy you just proved my point...thanks

[archetype]

"these are some of the most ridiculous posts i've read."

Which posts struck you as ridiculous? Because for me the issue isn't really the kind of music or what the music sounds like, but rather the theological content of the lyrics.

"what does it matter what the MUSI|C sounds like as long as the song is giving GLORY to GOD and spreading the MESSAGE."

Which musicians do you feel do this with their music? Can you provide some examples of Spirit-filled lyrics to be evaluated? Can you name some songs that deliver a sound law and gospel presentation that truly does spread the message of Christ in the time allowed by that song?

"i happen to be a musician(drummer) and i listen to Christian metal/hardcore/metalcore(whatever you want to call it) and i tell you their lyrics are Spirit filled. who cares what the music sounds like? get off your high horse and quiting judging musicians"

Here's a tip, when you're going to condemn the act of passing judgment on a group of people for their behavior, it's wise if you don't do engage in the same type of judgmental behavior yourself. That's called hypocrisy. You don't want to be a hypocrite do you? Because in this post, that's how you've presented yourself. First by declaring some of the posts to be the most ridiculous you've ever read, and you were acting hypocritical again at the end when you accused the people in this thread of being on a high horse.
and you can go look up lyrics yourself. i have better things to do than argue with you over Christian music? do you hear how dumb that sounds? but here are two Christian labels www.solidstaterecords.com and www.toothandnail.com have fun !!!!

[archetype]

i'll be a nice guy and give you one. the band is called "becoming the archetype" one of the most talented group of musicians going. here is one of their songs

And so was the plight of man for generations
Their souls remained frozen
Enslaved in darkness
Until the day that fire fell from heaven
Those who witnessed the blaze took up torches
And carried them into all the earth
Bearing witness that fire would be the key
To undoing the enemy’s grasp on their souls
Yet there were those who refused to believe
Since they had not seen the source of the blaze with their own eyes
Still many others left all they had behind
They took up torches and carried the flame
I will carry the flame to the end of the earth with me
This fire that burns forever is the only thing that sets me free
They marched deep into the depths of the earth
To reclaim their souls from the enemy

you can hear a few of their songs on myspace. i dont know what kind of lyrics your looking for...but those sit with me and the Lord i serve Jesus Christ just fine brother

[archetype]

oh...and Z...if you have trouble understanding the song...i'll give you a hint...its talking about the Holy Spirit...the whole cd is about Him.

[archetype]

here's another good friend. this one speaks for itself...at least i hope you can get this one...

Oh the misery of my people
I’ve heard them crying out
Their lamentation
The deafening sound of sorrow
Clothed in anguish
They’ve been enslaved for generations
But now the time has come
I will deliver them
One fire burns within my soul
Consuming all of the doubt in my mind
Infusing my soul with purpose again
Awake from sleep my chosen people
Break the bonds of slavery and step out into new life
Hear the word spoken through flame
A fire that cannot be quenched

AMEN!

[invisible trousers]

It's quite dull, to be honest.

[RebeccatheGreat]

it seems as if wareagle just wants to argue,because it looks like you both believe the same gospel, but you (wareagle,a befitting name;))only want it explained your way.
pride cometh before a fall.



archtype & rosiecotton,I agree with you both.third day is my
favorite!


it's always Christians who turn off non believers with that high and mightiness,never God's word.and Jesus did hang out with the sinners.Matthew 9:11-13

someone asked how many were saved....what kind of question is that? that's just silly.

[rosiecotton]

archtype & rosiecotton,I agree with you both.third day is my
favorite!i

Have you seen them in concert? They are awesome!!! Mac has the greatest voice!! Oh, which reminds me, I have to go get Chronology volume 2, it came out this week!!!

[Zecryphon]

buddy you just proved my point...thanks
Well if you need others to prove your points for you because you can't do it by yourself, you're welcome.

[Zecryphon]

i'll be a nice guy and give you one. the band is called "becoming the archetype" one of the most talented group of musicians going. here is one of their songs

And so was the plight of man for generations
Their souls remained frozen
Enslaved in darkness
Until the day that fire fell from heaven
Those who witnessed the blaze took up torches
And carried them into all the earth
Bearing witness that fire would be the key
To undoing the enemy’s grasp on their souls
Yet there were those who refused to believe
Since they had not seen the source of the blaze with their own eyes
Still many others left all they had behind
They took up torches and carried the flame
I will carry the flame to the end of the earth with me
This fire that burns forever is the only thing that sets me free
They marched deep into the depths of the earth
To reclaim their souls from the enemy

you can hear a few of their songs on myspace. i dont know what kind of lyrics your looking for...but those sit with me and the Lord i serve Jesus Christ just fine brother
I thought you had better things to do. LOL

[Zecryphon]

i'll be a nice guy and give you one. the band is called "becoming the archetype" one of the most talented group of musicians going. here is one of their songs

And so was the plight of man for generations
Their souls remained frozen
Enslaved in darkness
Until the day that fire fell from heaven
Those who witnessed the blaze took up torches
And carried them into all the earth
Bearing witness that fire would be the key
To undoing the enemy’s grasp on their souls
Yet there were those who refused to believe
Since they had not seen the source of the blaze with their own eyes
Still many others left all they had behind
They took up torches and carried the flame
I will carry the flame to the end of the earth with me
This fire that burns forever is the only thing that sets me free
They marched deep into the depths of the earth
To reclaim their souls from the enemy

you can hear a few of their songs on myspace. i dont know what kind of lyrics your looking for...but those sit with me and the Lord i serve Jesus Christ just fine brother
They would sit just fine with any Christian because Christians are already saved and understand what's being referenced in that song. People who claim that Christian music spreads the gospel have yet to prove it, because the gospel contains the good news that Christ has paid your fine on the cross. A fine you've earned with your sins against God. Those two sentences usually require quite a bit of explanation to the non-believer in order for them to understand them the way we do. Christian music is for the Christian, not the non-believer. But Christian music is adopting genres of music that will appeal to the non-believer, while still delivering a message they can not possibly understand in context.

[Zecryphon]

oh...and Z...if you have trouble understanding the song...i'll give you a hint...its talking about the Holy Spirit...the whole cd is about Him.
I've managed to prove my points without making assumptions about your intelligence and dropping "hints" in a condescending fashion. I would expect the same kind of respect and behavior in return from a brother in the faith, even though we happen to disagree on the minor point of Christian music. If this is how you behave when a Christian disagrees with you, I shudder to think how you behave when a non-believer disagrees with you.

[archetype]

I've managed to prove my points without making assumptions about your intelligence and dropping "hints" in a condescending fashion. I would expect the same kind of respect and behavior in return from a brother in the faith, even though we happen to disagree on the minor point of Christian music. If this is how you behave when a Christian disagrees with you, I shudder to think how you behave when a non-believer disagrees with you.
well since you will find something wrong in everything i say...maybe you should take a step back and re-read everything you've replied to me. is that the way you really want me to talk to you? cause i certainly could if i wanted to turn back to my old ways. like you basically calling me a hypocrite cause i found your post ridiculous...or you trying to insult my intelligence? i should have reported you several times by now...but you'll be judged one day by a greater one. i went out of my way to get lyrics for you "brother". that is one song out of thousands...do your research before you start making assumptions. i've gave you labels to check out...and here's something that will help you...songmeanings.net search for the band you want and it will bring up the lyrics and people post what they think the song is talking about(as well as the artists). you just drove one Christian out of this thread...hate to see what you do to non-believers. have fun

[archetype]

I've managed to prove my points without making assumptions about your intelligence and dropping "hints" in a condescending fashion. I would expect the same kind of respect and behavior in return from a brother in the faith, even though we happen to disagree on the minor point of Christian music. If this is how you behave when a Christian disagrees with you, I shudder to think how you behave when a non-believer disagrees with you.
well since you will find something wrong in everything i say...maybe you should take a step back and re-read everything you've replied to me. is that the way you really want me to talk to you? cause i certainly could if i wanted to turn back to my old ways. like you basically calling me a hypocrite cause i found your post ridiculous...or you trying to insult my intelligence? i should have reported you several times by now...but you'll be judged one day by a greater one. i went out of my way to get lyrics for you "brother". that is one song out of thousands...do your research before you start making assumptions. i've gave you labels to check out...and here's something that will help you...songmeanings.net search for the band you want and it will bring up the lyrics and people post what they think the song is talking about(as well as the artists). you just drove one Christian out of this thread...hate to see what you do to non-believers. have fun

[Zecryphon]

well since you will find something wrong in everything i say...maybe you should take a step back and re-read everything you've replied to me. is that the way you really want me to talk to you? cause i certainly could if i wanted to turn back to my old ways. like you basically calling me a hypocrite cause i found your post ridiculous...or you trying to insult my intelligence? i should have reported you several times by now...but you'll be judged one day by a greater one. i went out of my way to get lyrics for you "brother". that is one song out of thousands...do your research before you start making assumptions. i've gave you labels to check out...and here's something that will help you...songmeanings.net search for the band you want and it will bring up the lyrics and people post what they think the song is talking about(as well as the artists). you just drove one Christian out of this thread...hate to see what you do to non-believers. have fun
"well since you will find something wrong in everything i say...maybe you should take a step back and re-read everything you've replied to me."

I have, and I admit that I have in some places spoken harshly. For that I apologize.

"is that the way you really want me to talk to you? cause i certainly could if i wanted to turn back to my old ways."

Your old ways were worse than making quippy, uncalled for remarks about my intelligence level?

"like you basically calling me a hypocrite cause i found your post ridiculous...or you trying to insult my intelligence?"

You were behaving in a hypocritical fashion. You were judging others and then saying that others should not be judged. That's hypocrisy. I don't slam people for judging others because that's what we're called to do as Christians. We can not judge their hearts, but we can certainly judge the things people say and do.

"i should have reported you several times by now..."

Oh please do. I invite the accountability. However, you're probably gonna have to look for a violation in this post as you've already responded to my previous ones and you can not file a complaint about a post you've already responded to.

"but you'll be judged one day by a greater one."

Yes I will and I will gladly give an account of judging the lyrical content of Christian music as I have done here. I believe it's theologically soft and deserves to be questioned and where appropriate condemned.

"i went out of my way to get lyrics for you "brother"."

After you said you had better things to do. Also, it wasn't that big of a chore for me to get the lyrics to the two songs I compared side by side in my post, so I know it's not really that big of a deal to get lyrics to songs you most likley already own.

"that is one song out of thousands...do your research before you start making assumptions."

I've already stated that I do listen to Christian music and have evaluated hundreds of songs. I was in the non-denom church for 5 years, I know exactly the knid of stuff we used to sing in service on Sunday and it was never once a hymn, but stuff pulled straight from CCM radio. So in reality, I am not making assumptions at all, but backing up my cliams with proof and experience in this area.

"i've gave you labels to check out...and here's something that will help you...songmeanings.net search for the band you want and it will bring up the lyrics and people post what they think the song is talking about(as well as the artists). you just drove one Christian out of this thread...hate to see what you do to non-believers."

Oh I hit them with the law and gospel of Christ if it's a witness encounter. If it's just day to day stuff I pretty much let them be and don't judge them on what they say or type. You'll be back in this thread. Rosiecotton said she had better things to do like dealing with the crap going on in her church, yet when someone agreed with her, she was right back in this thread posting away.

[RebeccatheGreat]

Oh I hit them with the law and gospel of Christ if it's a witness encounter. If it's just day to day stuff I pretty much let them be and don't judge them on what they say or type. You'll be back in this thread. Rosiecotton said she had better things to do like dealing with the crap going on in her church, yet when someone agreed with her, she was right back in this thread posting away.

Since it's ok,as you say,to judge other's actions and deeds....I'll say it seems as if you use the Lord and his word to justify your own self righteous attitude.I like that you "hit them with the law".I hope you yourself are wearing a helmet .and I am no longer under the law,thanks to my Lord.
just remember that God is a loving and just God,and when you only represent him in a stern and strict manner, you are not accurately representing him.that's not good witnessing either.
I don't want to argue with you, but just want to point out something maybe you're not getting.

[RebeccatheGreat]

Have you seen them in concert? They are awesome!!! Mac has the greatest voice!! Oh, which reminds me, I have to go get Chronology volume 2, it came out this week!!!

No, I've never been blessed to have them close enough to see live,but some day I hope.
Mac does have the most amazing voice.so soothing,to me anyway.
and yes, the are good Christian guys and I've never worried otherwise with them.

[rosiecotton]

Oh I hit them with the law and gospel of Christ if it's a witness encounter. If it's just day to day stuff I pretty much let them be and don't judge them on what they say or type. You'll be back in this thread. Rosiecotton said she had better things to do like dealing with the crap going on in her church, yet when someone agreed with her, she was right back in this thread posting away.

No, I said I didn't feel like arguing about it. I don't have the energy to argue about it and I don't really care to tell you the truth. I am drained...physically, emotionally and spiritually at the moment.
I didn't comment her simply because she 'agreed with me.' I simply was making a statement about Third Day because she said they were her favorite band. What is it to you? I can't ask someone if they've seen them in concert????? :scratch:

[MoNiCa4316]

I was in my hotmail account and the link to this article caught my eye. What do you think about this and also the recent change in churches going more contemporary and preaching more relationship with Jesus and not religion (which is what I believe). Is this where the idea/revolution came from?

warning: the article may be disconcerting to some people (as it was to me).

http://www.slate.com/id/2171430/?GT1=10346

I go to a church that has 'contemporary' worship and preaches a 'relationship with Jesus', but it doesn't water down the gospel at all. It has been described as 'contemporary without compromise', lol. And I love modern Christian music... I think it doesn't really matter what the origins of something are, it matters what it is today. There is no 'sinful' or 'wrong' music, only words...all music can glorify God. If it works for you, I don't think there's a problem.

God bless!


monica

[holo]

Music can't glorify God. It can't offend Him either.

Only PEOPLE can glorify God. It's just like with food - abstain from it and give God the glory, or enjoy your freedom to eat whatever, and give God the glory. It doesn't matter what sort of food it is - its "cleanliness" depends on how you treat it.

For a while I had a problem with a lot of secular music, because I couldn't enjoy it with a clear conscience and conviction, and thus it was actually sin for me - it wasn't of faith. I have grown and developed and changed, however, so now I have no problem at all praising God while listening, and thanking Him for, music like AD/DC or Jethro Tull or Bach or whatever. It has nothing to do with the music itself, it has everything to do with your heart.

[holo]

Please show where and please explain why, if God has forgiven everyone, the Bible tells us that some will be judged as wicked and sent to Hell.Jesus died for the sin of the entire world. It is finished. He was crucified once, and doesn't need to be crucified again. The price has been paid, there's not one single sin or infirmity that wasn't laid on Him.

Suppose I offer you a million bucks. I could throw them after you, even. That doesn't make you rich. You can, if you want to, choose to keep working and earning money and making it for yourself instead of accepting my free gift. I have already given it to you, you only need to take it.

Same thing with salvation.

Could you please explain how you share the Gospel without first using the law?I usually just share my testimony. Which has nothing to do with the law. Other people's testimonies may be different.

Yes, I have several.Care to share them?

Then why do we see the Gospel being preached?Because the gospel then isn't exactly the same as the gospel AFTER Christ and AFTER Paul had it revealed. Nobody knew salvation was for ALL, and not only Israel.

I don't see any reason to believe that Jesus deviated from His usual message of law to the proud, grace to the humble.Yeah, I understand that "law to the proud, grace to the humble" principle. Personally I don't meet that many proud people though. A lot of them might appear to be prideful and stubborn at first, becuse they tend to equate Jesus and the gospel with some hypocritical televangelist, for example. Some of them manage to keep Jesus separated from the BS, though, and they will typically say that Jesus was good, but His followers suck.

[PastorJacob]

...preaching more relationship with Jesus and not religion (which is what I believe)...
The words of the Bible which are explained are Jesus himself (Lk24:25-27), the word of God our Savior (Ti2:10). You have got a hint of how to establish a relationship with Jesus?

[Zecryphon]

Since it's ok,as you say,to judge other's actions and deeds....I'll say it seems as if you use the Lord and his word to justify your own self righteous attitude.I like that you "hit them with the law".I hope you yourself are wearing a helmet .and I am no longer under the law,thanks to my Lord.
just remember that God is a loving and just God,and when you only represent him in a stern and strict manner, you are not accurately representing him.that's not good witnessing either.
I don't want to argue with you, but just want to point out something maybe you're not getting.
"Since it's ok,as you say,to judge other's actions and deeds....I'll say it seems as if you use the Lord and his word to justify your own self righteous attitude."

Prove it's self-righteous. Prove that I think I am better than anyone else in this thread, simply for the assertion that the lyrical content of Christian rock is not Christ-centered and cross-focused or theologically soft, which is my assertion. People want to deal with things I've said rather than the evidence I've provided in regards to today's Christian music as compared to the Christian music of yesteryear.

"I like that you "hit them with the law".I hope you yourself are wearing a helmet .and I am no longer under the law,thanks to my Lord."

We were never under the law to earn salvation and I do not follow the moral law to this day to earn salvation but to behave in a way that is pleasing to God and is a living witness of my faith in Him and His Son.

"just remember that God is a loving and just God,and when you only represent him in a stern and strict manner, you are not accurately representing him.that's not good witnessing either."

I believe I used the words law and gospel in my post. Therefore I represent both the justice and grace aspects of God.

"I don't want to argue with you, but just want to point out something maybe you're not getting."

Oh the message is loud and clear. Law and gospel all the time. If you ditch the law, the reason for the gospel makes no sense.

[Zecryphon]

No, I said I didn't feel like arguing about it. I don't have the energy to argue about it and I don't really care to tell you the truth. I am drained...physically, emotionally and spiritually at the moment.
I didn't comment her simply because she 'agreed with me.' I simply was making a statement about Third Day because she said they were her favorite band. What is it to you? I can't ask someone if they've seen them in concert????? :scratch:
"Honestly, now, I'm really sorry I even responded to this. Because I really don't feel like arguing about something so trivial. I have more important things going on in my life right now I'm dealing with, like all the crap that continues going on in our church, and just losing the best youth minister we've had in a long time. We have a lot of hurt youth and hurt people in our church and that's more important than arguing about Christian music."

Here's most of your first post, when you bowed out of this thread. I have yet to argue with anyone in this thread as all I have done is make my claims and back them up. I guess that's considered arguing over here. LOL

"So, ya'll can continue discussing amongst yourselves."

This is the statement I'm referring to in my post. When someone types this statement, it is indicative that they are leaving the thread.

"I didn't comment her simply because she 'agreed with me.' I simply was making a statement about Third Day because she said they were her favorite band."

Which came after you told us all to discuss this amongst ourselves, which means you were leaving the thread.

"What is it to you? I can't ask someone if they've seen them in concert????? :scratch:"

You can do whatever you feel like and apparently you do. Why do you care so much what I think. I'm nobody special.

[MoNiCa4316]

Originally Posted by WarEagle http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=37513709#post37513709)
Please show where and please explain why, if God has forgiven everyone, the Bible tells us that some will be judged as wicked and sent to Hell.

Jesus died for the sin of the entire world. It is finished. He was crucified once, and doesn't need to be crucified again. The price has been paid, there's not one single sin or infirmity that wasn't laid on Him.

Suppose I offer you a million bucks. I could throw them after you, even. That doesn't make you rich. You can, if you want to, choose to keep working and earning money and making it for yourself instead of accepting my free gift. I have already given it to you, you only need to take it.

Same thing with salvation.


That's true, it's a free gift that's already been given, but some people reject the gift...then they are rejecting salvation and forgiveness, and end up going to hell.

[Floatingaxe]

I go to a church that has 'contemporary' worship and preaches a 'relationship with Jesus', but it doesn't water down the gospel at all. It has been described as 'contemporary without compromise', lol. And I love modern Christian music... I think it doesn't really matter what the origins of something are, it matters what it is today. There is no 'sinful' or 'wrong' music, only words...all music can glorify God. If it works for you, I don't think there's a problem.

God bless!


monica


I go to the same kind of worshiping church. We use Hillsong music a lot, plus we have wonderfully gifted people who write their own music through the gifts the Holy Spirit gives.

Sometimes in worship we will be given a song by the Holy Spirit to sing. Totally AWESOME! When that happens, we are using all our musical giftedness: all instruments plus voices.

[MoNiCa4316]

I go to the same kind of worshiping church. We use Hillsong music a lot, plus we have wonderfully gifted people who write their own music through the gifts the Holy Spirit gives.

Sometimes in worship we will be given a song by the Holy Spirit to sing. Totally AWESOME! When that happens, we are using all our musical giftedness: all instruments plus voices.


We use Hillsong too :)
It's awesome when the Holy Spirit is leading the worship! :D I've been to services where this happened.

By the way, sometimes I wish I went to a charismatic church, lol..my church is non denom. evangelical and the pastor talks a lot about the Holy Spirit, but the worship is a little more 'organized' than in charismatic churches. It's still great though :) A lot of people at my church come from traditions where they sing hymns and it's all really formal, and there's nothing wrong with that if the worship is sincere, but I love how the pastor and the band are inspiring people to be more expressive and Spirit-lead during worship...they really want to see the people finding joy in the Lord. It's a pretty new church that's still growing.

But I think my favourite worship has been at a conference I once went to, where everyone was completely into it and the Holy Spirit was definitely present in the room. I wish it was like that all the time, haha.

[RebeccatheGreat]

I tried to use the multi quote thing to reply, but apparently not smart enough for it:o
so here is our conversation via my c&p.

"Since it's ok,as you say,to judge other's actions and deeds....I'll say it seems as if you use the Lord and his word to justify your own self righteous attitude."

Prove it's self-righteous. Prove that I think I am better than anyone else in this thread, simply for the assertion that the lyrical content of Christian rock is not Christ-centered and cross-focused or theologically soft, which is my assertion. People want to deal with things I've said rather than the evidence I've provided in regards to today's Christian music as compared to the Christian music of yesteryear.

I don't say you seem self righteous for your assertion on music, but for the way you speak(in this thread at least) to everyone,including those who believe the very same gospel as you.

"I like that you "hit them with the law".I hope you yourself are wearing a helmet .and I am no longer under the law,thanks to my Lord."

We were never under the law to earn salvation and I do not follow the moral law to this day to earn salvation but to behave in a way that is pleasing to God and is a living witness of my faith in Him and His Son.

we were at one time under the law.we had to have the priests make sacrifices for our sins(not ours personally because we were obviously not born yet, but our ancesters were.)Jesus became the living sacrifice for our sin and we are no longer under the law.do you think being harsh with Christians and unbelievers alike is pleasing to God?
do you think that helps others want to have a relationship with God, if His followers are condesending?

"just remember that God is a loving and just God,and when you only represent him in a stern and strict manner, you are not accurately representing him.that's not good witnessing either."

I believe I used the words law and gospel in my post. Therefore I represent both the justice and grace aspects of God.
but your attitude radiates law.in my opinion.it seems as if you are using the law and gospel as a weapon.such as "I'm saved and perfect and you're not ,nanny nanny boo boo.
let me tell you, I'm saved,but so far from perfect.
I'm sure you don't mean to come off that way,and on the internet it's hard to tell, but you do.


"I don't want to argue with you, but just want to point out something maybe you're not getting."

Oh the message is loud and clear. Law and gospel all the time. If you ditch the law, the reason for the gospel makes no sense.

just trying to speak the truth in love.
I get what you are saying about the reason for the gospel.
but it's sin.that's the reason for the gospel,not the law.

God Bless

[Zecryphon]

I tried to use the multi quote thing to reply, but apparently not smart enough for it:o
so here is our conversation via my c&p.
And what brings about the knowledge of sin, if not the law? The law is the schoolmaster that brings about the knowledge of sin. Go to www.livingwaters.com (http://www.livingwaters.com) and order a copy of Hell's Best Kept Secret or listen to it free online. It really explains this a lot better than I ever coud.

[Zecryphon]

I tried to use the multi quote thing to reply, but apparently not smart enough for it:o
so here is our conversation via my c&p.
"we were at one time under the law.we had to have the priests make sacrifices for our sins(not ours personally because we were obviously not born yet, but our ancesters were.)Jesus became the living sacrifice for our sin and we are no longer under the law.do you think being harsh with Christians and unbelievers alike is pleasing to God?"

It has yet to be proven that I am being such, all I've done thus far is point out how modern Christian music is not Christ-centered and cross-focused. I'm focusing solely on lyrical content here and provided an example of one CCM song as compared with one traditional hymn, to show the difference. No one is addressing that example. Wonder why.

"do you think that helps others want to have a relationship with God, if His followers are condesending?"

You have yet to prove I'm condescending. What you have right now, is an unsupported assertion. You have a claim, with zero quotes from me, that proves your claim.

"just remember that God is a loving and just God,and when you only represent him in a stern and strict manner, you are not accurately representing him.that's not good witnessing either."

I believe I used the words law and gospel in my post. Therefore I represent both the justice and grace aspects of God.

"but your attitude radiates law.in my opinion.it seems as if you are using the law and gospel as a weapon.such as "I'm saved and perfect and you're not ,nanny nanny boo boo."

I have never claimed to be perfect and had you read more posts by me, before coming to your conclusion you would know this. I'm a sinner just like everyone else is, in fact I promote the dual natured-Christian more than anyone else does. I'm living proof that we continue to sin after coming to faith in Christ.

"let me tell you, I'm saved,but so far from perfect."

I agree and not because I'm condescending but because you speak the truth.

"I'm sure you don't mean to come off that way,and on the internet it's hard to tell, but you do."

I know and here's the reason for it. When I first started posting on the interent I was what you would consider "green". I talked just as you would in a normal conversation offline or on the phone. I got caught in a lot of contradicitions in my thought processes and statements. I was on a message board, where the members dissected everything you said and basically considered "light" debate the normal way of speaking. Well over the course of close to a year, I learned how to talk and think like they did and developed a very thick skin. So I could take their comments in stride and not be offended by them. It was a complete overhaul that was actually very beneficial to me in many ways. It made me streamline my reasoning and think about what I would type before hitting that submit button. What seems to be harsh now, is just actually a well thought out response, and a supported one as well.

It doesn't sit well with all Christians, and the ones it doesn't sit well with I tend to avoid. If you are one that it doesn't sit well with, I will move on. I don't want any ill feelings or hurt emotions. Tomorrow I will post the rating system I use for Christian music. It's the same rating system I use for sermons. I use this system to figure out if sermons are Christ-centered and cross-focused. It's really a three-step procedure. Not all that complicated really. You and others may even benefit from it.

[RebeccatheGreat]

I will give you this,there is so called Christian music out there that is nothing more than a money making opportunity for the musicians,producers etc.

But there is really good Christian music out there made by really good Christian people whom God Blessed with the gift to make it,and they glorify Him by singing to Him,and praising Him.
I think God even enjoys this music,even if it is not in the form of the old standard church hymn, which is also wonderful.he made us all completely different,so why wouldn't our musical tastes and creations be?

I think that the majority of Christian singers/bands/musicians start out on the right path,wanting to glorify the Lord and share love through the gifts and talents He gave them,but like everyone else they are tempted.
they are tempted in everyway to stop glorifying God.drugs,booze,money,lust......sometimes they fall.
they lose their commitment & their first love,and then it all becomes about the fame and money,and scratching out one more song.
there are also the ones I mentioned before,that are not really Christians in the first place, but only want in on the money to be made in a much smaller genre.
But.....there are some really fine Godly Bands and singers out there,like Third Day.don't sell them all short.
I hope you can agree with some of what I just said, but I bet you won't hahaha.

[Zecryphon]

I will give you this,there is so called Christian music out there that is nothing more than a money making opportunity for the musicians,producers etc.

But there is really good Christian music out there made by really good Christian people whom God Blessed with the gift to make it,and they glorify Him by singing to Him,and praising Him.
I think God even enjoys this music,even if it is not in the form of the old standard church hymn, which is also wonderful.he made us all completely different,so why wouldn't our musical tastes and creations be?

I think that the majority of Christian singers/bands/musicians start out on the right path,wanting to glorify the Lord and share love through the gifts and talents He gave them,but like everyone else they are tempted.
they are tempted in everyway to stop glorifying God.drugs,booze,money,lust......sometimes they fall.
they lose their commitment & their first love,and then it all becomes about the fame and money,and scratching out one more song.
there are also the ones I mentioned before,that are not really Christians in the first place, but only want in on the money to be made in a much smaller genre.
But.....there are some really fine Godly Bands and singers out there,like Third Day.don't sell them all short.
I hope you can agree with some of what I just said, but I bet you won't hahaha.
I agree with some of what you said. Everyone is ignoring the fact that I listen to Christian music as well. But I've found that in order to glorify God and Christ you have to talk about them. The bands and artists that directly reference God and Christ by name in their songs are the exceptions rather than the rule.

Here is the rating system I use to determine if a Christian song is Christ-centered and cross-focused. This also happens to be the same rating system I use to determine if semons I listen to are Christ-centered and cross focused. It comes from Todd Wilken the host of the Issues, Etc. podcast. If any of you are familiar with this diagnostic tool, you'll notice that I have adapted it to be appropriate for Christian music here.

Question # 1: How many times are Jesus or God mentioned by name?

Question # 2: If Jesus or God are mentioned, are either of them the subject of the verbs? Is the song telling you what Jesus or God have done or are Jesus and/or God simply in there as an object or some sort of distance clause off in the background? Is the song not about what Jesus or God have done, but rather what somebody else has done? Maybe even what YOU have done.

Question # 3: If Jesus and/or God are the subject of the verbs, what are those verbs? How are Jesus and/or God being portrayed in the song? Is this the Jesus and/or God that is your power source? Your inspiration? The Jesus and/or God that you love so very much? Or is this the Jesus and/or God who has lived for you and died for you and risen from the dead for you?

[rosiecotton]

Here's most of your first post, when you bowed out of this thread. I have yet to argue with anyone in this thread as all I have done is make my claims and back them up. I guess that's considered arguing over here. LOL
This is the statement I'm referring to in my post. When someone types this statement, it is indicative that they are leaving the thread.
Which came after you told us all to discuss this amongst ourselves, which means you were leaving the thread.
You can do whatever you feel like and apparently you do. Why do you care so much what I think. I'm nobody special.

Ok, so 'technically' maybe I didn't actually 'leave' the thread. I still like reading a thread even if I'm not participating in it. As I stated I just don't really have the energy nor the time to discuss this topic. And it's really not something that is 'that' important to me anyway.
I simply made a comment to someone because they happened to mention my favorite band.
Can I ask what you mean by the statement...."you can do whatever you feel like and apparently you do?"

[Zecryphon]

Ok, so 'technically' maybe I didn't actually 'leave' the thread. I still like reading a thread even if I'm not participating in it. As I stated I just don't really have the energy nor the time to discuss this topic. And it's really not something that is 'that' important to me anyway.
I simply made a comment to someone because they happened to mention my favorite band.
Can I ask what you mean by the statement...."you can do whatever you feel like and apparently you do?"
It means that after you made the statement "have fun discussing this amongst yourselves" you came back into the thread. When a person makes a statement like that, it means they're leaving the thread. If they are not leaving the thread, then they should not make such statements.

[rosiecotton]

It means that after you made the statement "have fun discussing this amongst yourselves" you came back into the thread. When a person makes a statement like that, it means they're leaving the thread. If they are not leaving the thread, then they should not make such statements.

Ahh, ok, whatever.....

[WarEagle]

it seems as if wareagle just wants to argue,because it looks like you both believe the same gospel, but you (wareagle,a befitting name;))only want it explained your way.
pride cometh before a fall.

It's not a matter of pride. It's a matter of correcting heresy.

What's he's talking about is universalism, which is heresy and which will send countless millions to Hell.

The truth is, not everyone is saved and not everyone will be judged to be a child of God on judgement day.

Holo can say all he likes that all will be saved and that no one will go to Hell, but the Bible says that they will and Jesus has commanded us to present the Gospel to them for precisely this reason.

it's always Christians who turn off non believers with that high and mightiness,never God's word.and Jesus did hang out with the sinners.Matthew 9:11-13

However, He never did engage in their sin with them and always took the opportunity to present the Gospel to them.

someone asked how many were saved....what kind of question is that? that's just silly.

The fact that Jesus died to save sinners and you call it "silly" says a lot more about you than it does about them.

[WarEagle]

That's true, it's a free gift that's already been given, but some people reject the gift...then they are rejecting salvation and forgiveness, and end up going to hell.

I understand what you're saying, but it's a little misleading to say that it's a free gift.

It's really a proposition that's dependent upon the sinner's repentance and faith before God forgives.

[holo]

What's he's talking about is universalism, which is heresy and which will send countless millions to Hell.How far can you count...?

Holo can say all he likes that all will be savedYes I could. I've never said that though.

The fact that Jesus died to save sinners and you call it "silly" says a lot more about you than it does about them.Nobody has called it silly that Jesus died to save sinners, not that I have seen at least.

[Floatingaxe]

I understand what you're saying, but it's a little misleading to say that it's a free gift.

It's really a proposition that's dependent upon the sinner's repentance and faith before God forgives.


God's Word says it's a fee gift. You can't argue further...you mustn't quibble about this.

Romans 5:15-16
But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

[holo]

I understand what you're saying, but it's a little misleading to say that it's a free gift.

It's really a proposition that's dependent upon the sinner's repentance and faith before God forgives.Paul called it a free gift. It's always been a free gift. You don't buy it with anything. Not with discipline, not with emotions, not with determination, not with a formula, not by adhering to a creed, not by performing anything. You simply believe in it. Salvation is of grace, received in faith. If you were heading in another direction, like into yourself, then yes, you will need to repent and change your direction toward God's grace.

Jesus has already died ONCE and FOR ALL. It's not like He's being crucified each time a sinner repents. It's already been done, we have all been bought with a price, all the sin in the world was dealt with on the cross. Jesus did this while we were still sinners.

It IS a free gift. Salvation is free, and it's for all.

[RebeccatheGreat]

It's not a matter of pride. It's a matter of correcting heresy.

What's he's talking about is universalism, which is heresy and which will send countless millions to Hell.

I did not catch where he said that,maybe I missed it.

The truth is, not everyone is saved and not everyone will be judged to be a child of God on judgement day.

I absolutely agree with you.

Holo can say all he likes that all will be saved and that no one will go to Hell, but the Bible says that they will and Jesus has commanded us to present the Gospel to them for precisely this reason.

yes,I agree.



However, He never did engage in their sin with them and always took the opportunity to present the Gospel to them.

agree again,and never said Jesus sinned.



The fact that Jesus died to save sinners and you call it "silly" says a lot more about you than it does about them.

now you're getting on my bad side.I certainly did not say Jesus death,burial or ressurection is silly!
I said your question of how many were saved was silly.how could anyone possibly know how many were/are/will be saved?
I did not go back and re-read before replying,so I don't even remember for sure what the specifics of the conversation were, but I do know the woman at the well was saved,Mary Magdalene (no I'm not spelling it right) was saved,and you know as well as I do who was mentioned or implyed in the Bible as being saved.
it's still a ridiculous question in the context in which it was used.

I almost had decided you weren't so bad, and were just coming across in the wrong way.
But now that you have missed arguing with me so much as to go back and dig up my first replys just to argue some more.....I changed my mind again.that's a spirit I try to avoid.I like a good friendly argument or "debate" probably more than I should,if it's in the right spirit.this is not that spirit.
:wave:

[WarEagle]

Paul called it a free gift. It's always been a free gift. You don't buy it with anything. Not with discipline, not with emotions, not with determination, not with a formula, not by adhering to a creed, not by performing anything. You simply believe in it. Salvation is of grace, received in faith. If you were heading in another direction, like into yourself, then yes, you will need to repent and change your direction toward God's grace.

Jesus has already died ONCE and FOR ALL. It's not like He's being crucified each time a sinner repents. It's already been done, we have all been bought with a price, all the sin in the world was dealt with on the cross. Jesus did this while we were still sinners.

It IS a free gift. Salvation is free, and it's for all.

The Bible says that we have to repent and put our faith in Christ in order to be saved. I've got to take the Bible's word over yours.

God's Word says it's a fee gift. You can't argue further...you mustn't quibble about this.

Read my posts. I'm not arguing against the phrase as it's used in scripture. I'm arguing against it as it's used in pop-Christianity.

[Floatingaxe]

Read my posts. I'm not arguing against the phrase as it's used in scripture. I'm arguing against it as it's used in pop-Christianity.


Absolutely. So many people gravitate to the fallacious idea that salvation is everyone's, whether they repent or not.

[holo]

The Bible says that we have to repent and put our faith in Christ in order to be saved. I've got to take the Bible's word over yours.By all means do. The bible's words are also that salvation is a free gift. The fact that you must have faith doesn't change that, because you don't BUY salvation with faith. You ACCEPT it in faith. And that faith is a gift in itself. And it's GOD's GOODNESS that drives us to repentance too... so salvation is in NO way something we deserve or buy or provide ourselves. It's from God from beginning to end :)

[pdfiddler]

Salvation is for everyone. All you have to do is claim it.:amen: