Are the sanctified [of this earth] the only few saved?

[stranger]

Jude1:1 - Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

It is clear , is it not, that it is talking about the saints, not sinners.... ?

Now the saints are given all truth in this life and understand all prophecy [John 16:13] ... but we do not as sinners...

Also we know that almost all men die not knowing all truth of God , even christians are almost all still divided in beliefs at death.... thus men as a whole are NOT yet baptised , not led into all truth of God in THIS life... it is obviously not true then that all men are baptised of the spirit, but rather that very few indeed are, and so there are indeed very few saints in this world....

Jesus actually tells us how many saints there are , just 144,000 , listed in Rev 7:3-8 as descendants of the sons of Jacob by name , the tribes of anciently-divided Israel ... so the promise of priesthood indeed is hande down by descent ,juast as has always been the case ...

In order for that to be the case , since Israel was rejected by God, both its divided Houses, Jews and the paganised non-Jewish House of Israel both rejected by god for breaking their old covenant with him... ther had to be a new covennat with both Houses and indeed there is [Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:8-12] ...

So how did christianity get it so completely wrong, the new covanat clearly states that it is unconditional unmerited forgiveness of those whose fathers broke the old covenant, there is no separate 'spiritual ' Israel in scripture, the covenant says it is with the House of Judah [jews] and the House of Israel [non-Jewish, lost, aganised ,living as gentiles amongst all gentile nations]
So there we have it then from scripture, the saints of this world are a few descendants of ancient Israel, some Jews , some believing they are gentiles ,because they live as gentiles amidst gentiles [for as long as they remember]
"These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 19-21)
So you see, I guess , that this applies to the saints alone , and is only addressed to them in scripture, not to everyone... we as sinners can LEARN our future salvation from the words of the saints, but God has chosen israel toi be saints , not those who must remain sinners till death [most people]

Now the many do go by the 'broad way' to Jesus, the easier way of sinners through 'destruction' in death and the second resurrection , but there is no way to obtain spirit baptism to know all truth in this life unless one is either Jeewish or of the lost House of Israel .... so no-one actually knows that they may be brought to all truth until it happens , God does not atke all Jews in this life and the House of Israel are a lost people, they no longe know that they are the House of Israel... but what we can say is that only one in a million will be a saint in this life, and they will know because they come to know all truth and prophecy, as Jesus and the other saints...

So I hope you see the distinction, the many are saved afterward[Rev 7:9-10] , in the kingdom of God in the righteous new earth , and freed from sin in death, the few are the only ones needing grace in this life then.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
[ NOTE; saints made in the new earth from the resurrected sinners of this earth!]

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The many then are not baptised in this life , and are not mentioned in the new covenant because their death for sin frees them from sin to be able to live righteously after the second resurrection [and before judgment ,obviously!]

Tus I think it is clear that God's promise to baptise all flesh [Joel 2:28] simply cannot be fulfilled until the many who died without it as sinners, not knowing all truth, are resurrected at the second resurrection.... that is all sinners of this world, be they 'chrsitian' or not ... simply saying one believes in jesus is NOT enough, one must obey him as Lord and so do love continually in obedience to his commandment to love... obviously sinners cannot do this !!

It just makes the point, the many are saved in the new earth kingdom come, not in this world at Jesus' return

Having said all that, i am quite happy to meet and discuss scripture further if you like, I live in Maidenhead at the border of Berks/Bucks , some ten miles West of London Gatwick airport...

But perhaps you would llike to discuss these scriptures first since you have not seen them before and realised what they are saying, that all christianity has it wrong about salvation of the many....

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Note that the many go through destruction in death to freethem from sin, but contrary to chrsitian teachings of sinners, the many ARE saved afeterward :-

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...

May his peace be with you through His truth in scripture, given also for the gentiles to know our salvation in Jesus after just the few redeemed at his return;

[tapero]

Hi, long post, I'll post in blue inbetween but may not get to all.

Jude1:1 - Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

It is clear , is it not, that it is talking about the saints, not sinners.... ?

Now the saints are given all truth in this life and understand all prophecy [John 16:13] ... but we do not as sinners...
There is no Christian that understands all prophecy. As all prophecy is not explained as pertains to the prophecy given.

Also we know that almost all men die not knowing all truth of God , even christians are almost all still divided in beliefs at death.... thus men as a whole are NOT yet baptised , not led into all truth of God in THIS life... it is obviously not true then that all men are baptised of the spirit, but rather that very few indeed are, and so there are indeed very few saints in this world....
When we believe in Christ, we are baptised into him (not water baptism.) We are led into truth in as much as we understand, and as much of our knowledge is of God, and etc. There are many saints in the world. No Christian has even a mustard seed comprehension of God. We will grow all our lives and when we see God in heaven, we will learn of him for eternity for his knowledge and wisdom is endless.
Jesus actually tells us how many saints there are , just 144,000 , listed in Rev 7:3-8 as descendants of the sons of Jacob by name , the tribes of anciently-divided Israel ... so the promise of priesthood indeed is hande down by descent ,juast as has always been the case ...
That is not true. This number does not contain all the saints; as you can tell only tribes are listed, hence Jewish people and it is clear that God has called all men and this includes Jews and Gentiles. These are Jews who will be there in the end times, and note that they will have special abilities, don't recall exactly, but i believe one is that they will be unable to be harmed.
In order for that to be the case , since Israel was rejected by God, both its divided Houses, Jews and the paganised non-Jewish House of Israel both rejected by god for breaking their old covenant with him... ther had to be a new covennat with both Houses and indeed there is [Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:8-12] ...
There are indeed Jewish believers, and God didn't reject Jews, the Jewish nation rejected God.
So how did christianity get it so completely wrong, the new covanat clearly states that it is unconditional unmerited forgiveness of those whose fathers broke the old covenant, there is no separate 'spiritual ' Israel in scripture, the covenant says it is with the House of Judah [jews] and the House of Israel [non-Jewish, lost, aganised ,living as gentiles amongst all gentile nations]
So there we have it then from scripture, the saints of this world are a few descendants of ancient Israel, some Jews , some believing they are gentiles ,because they live as gentiles amidst gentiles [for as long as they remember]
Not so, not sure what book you are reading to gain such of what you are saying, but, I'd stick with the bible, and not listen to any teachings as you are severely being mislead, and most likely from sources other than the bible.
So you see, I guess , that this applies to the saints alone , and is only addressed to them in scripture, not to everyone... we as sinners can LEARN our future salvation from the words of the saints, but God has chosen israel toi be saints , not those who must remain sinners till death [most people]
Do a word search on saints in the NIV and see how many many hits you get. Those who believe in Christ, are already saved, and never can lose their salvation. God clearly does not say only Israelites are saints, any one who believes in Christ, or in the OT the Father are called saints.

Believers are sinners and will sin till the day we die, but when we came to Christ all sin was forgiven.
Now the many do go by the 'broad way' to Jesus, the easier way of sinners through 'destruction' in death and the second resurrection , but there is no way to obtain spirit baptism to know all truth in this life unless one is either Jeewish or of the lost House of Israel .... so no-one actually knows that they may be brought to all truth until it happens , God does not atke all Jews in this life and the House of Israel are a lost people, they no longe know that they are the House of Israel... but what we can say is that only one in a million will be a saint in this life, and they will know because they come to know all truth and prophecy, as Jesus and the other saints...
Again when someone comes to Christ they are baptised in Christ, the Holy Spirit indwells them and they can never lose their salvation. There is no other baptism needed, tho God does say to be baptised with water, it is not part of salvation in any way. There are no other baptisms. There are many many saints, as all Christians are saints and again, NO ONE know all truth or all prophecy except God alone.
So I hope you see the distinction, the many are saved afterward[Rev 7:9-10] , in the kingdom of God in the righteous new earth , and freed from sin in death, the few are the only ones needing grace in this life then.
If you are saying after death people can come to Christ, that is not true. It is written; man is appointed once to die and then the judgement. No second chances.
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
[ NOTE; saints made in the new earth from the resurrected sinners of this earth!]

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The many then are not baptised in this life , and are not mentioned in the new covenant because their death for sin frees them from sin to be able to live righteously after the second resurrection [and before judgment ,obviously!]
We will never be without sin until we are with God. God calls us righteous right now, as we are, even tho we sin, we are righteous in his site, because of Christ. Again, already explained about about baptism. There is no other baptism then when one comes to Christ and are baptised in him (not with water) it's spririutal and occurs upon belief in christ, and then if one does get baptised with water, is the only other baptism, and that baptism has nothing to do with salvation.
Tus I think it is clear that God's promise to baptise all flesh [Joel 2:28] simply cannot be fulfilled until the many who died without it as sinners, not knowing all truth, are resurrected at the second resurrection.... that is all sinners of this world, be they 'chrsitian' or not ... simply saying one believes in jesus is NOT enough, one must obey him as Lord and so do love continually in obedience to his commandment to love... obviously sinners cannot do this !!
There are many teaching salvation is hard, and like the pharisee's which Jesus rebuked for them making it hard for ones to join the kingdom, so I rebuke the teachings that say anything other than belief in Jesus saves.

There is nothing more, all things we do and grow and learn come after salvation but do not affect our salvation. It is very easy to come to Christ, I believe in you Jesus, and yet many try to add yokes, enslavement, burdens, etc, not of God. There is no way that 'one must obey him as Lord and do so contiunally without fault', as you wrote above; it's impossible as all are sinners, and there is no mention of such in the bible. Stop reading other books or stop going to whatever church or meetings your going to cause your way off and it's not from reading and studying the bible, but some foreign teachings. There is no second chance after death to come to christ, again I want to remind you.

It just makes the point, the many are saved in the new earth kingdom come, not in this world at Jesus' return
If someone dies in their sin, in unbelief, there is no chance for salvation. A christian never loses their salvation.
Having said all that, i am quite happy to meet and discuss scripture further if you like, I live in Maidenhead at the border of Berks/Bucks , some ten miles West of London Gatwick airport...

But perhaps you would llike to discuss these scriptures first since you have not seen them before and realised what they are saying, that all christianity has it wrong about salvation of the many....
It is obvious you are not studying the bible, but a book or a mans teaching, but basically giving ear to false teaching.

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Note that the many go through destruction in death to freethem from sin, but contrary to chrsitian teachings of sinners, the many ARE saved afeterward :-
We thank God that those who really take the bible and go strange places are not God, and so we thankfully have God who has already given us the plan, the way the truth and the life, which is Jesus. All who believe in him are saved. After death their is no change for those unsaved to be saved only a fearful expectation of the judgement. If you are preaching this message above you wrote, you are leading people to hell.
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...

May his peace be with you through His truth in scripture, given also for the gentiles to know our salvation in Jesus after just the few redeemed at his return;.

Peace

[PastorJacob]

Many are called, but few are chosen. Read johnchao's thread A book to make you a real non-denominational, and you will get a clear understanding of how to be chosen.

[PastorJacob]

8) Many are called and few are chosen. How to be chosen?

Ro 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. 28 For the Lord will carry out his word on earth quickly and thoroughly."
Isa 10:20 In that day the remnant of Israel, the survivors of the house of Jacob, will no longer rely on him who struck them down but will truly rely on Yahweh, the Holy One of Israel. 21 A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God. 22 Though your people, O Israel, be like the sand by the sea, only a remnant will return. Destruction has been decreed, overwhelming and righteous. 23 Yahweh, Yahweh Almighty, will carry out the destruction decreed upon the whole land. 24 Therefore, this is what Yahweh, Yahweh Almighty, says: "O my people who live in Zion, do not be afraid of the Assyrians, who beat you with a rod and lift up a club against you, as Egypt did. 25 Very soon my anger against you will end and my wrath will be directed to their destruction." 26 Yahweh Almighty will lash them with a whip, as when he struck down Midian at the rock of Oreb; and he will raise his staff over the waters, as he did in Egypt. 27 In that day their burden will be lifted from your shoulders, their yoke from your neck; the yoke will be broken because you have grown so fat.
(Note: Yahweh Almighty will carry out the destruction decreed upon the whole land)
Mt 20:1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard. 3 "About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, `You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right. 5 'So they went. "He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6 About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, `Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing? 7 "`'Because no one has hired us,' they answered. "He said to them, `You also go and work in my vineyard. 8 "'When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, `Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first. 9 "'The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 `These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, `and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day. 13 "'But he answered one of them, `Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous? 16 "'So the last will be first, and the first will be last. For many are called, but few chosen.”
(Note: The vineyard:
Jn 15:1 "I am the true vine, 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
Jesus is the true vine.
Silver:
Ps 12:6 And the words of Yahweh are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times.
The word of Yahweh is silver.
Job 22:22 Accept instruction from his mouth and lay up his words in your heart. 23 If you return to the Almighty, you will be restored: If you remove wickedness far from your tent.
Lay up Yahweh’s words in heart, that is, he who received the word from the mouth of God will be chosen.)
Mt 22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. 4 "Then he sent some more servants and said, `Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet. 5 "'But they paid no attention and went off--one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 "Then he said to his servants, `The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find. 10 'So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 `Friend,' he asked, `how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless. 13 "Then the king told the attendants, `Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 "'For many are called, but few are chosen."
(Note: What is the wedding clothes?
Ezr 3:10 When the builders laid the foundation of the temple of Yahweh, the priests in their vestments and with trumpets, and the Levites (the sons of Asaph) with cymbals, took their places to praise Yahweh, as prescribed by David king of Israel.
In the vestments and with trumpets:
Trumpet:
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.
The word of God spoken in the Holy Spirit is the voice of a trumpet; the vestment is put on to be chosen.)
Ac 10:40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.
To be seen:
2Co 12:1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.
Ac 10:41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen--by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
(Note: Witness:
Rev 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.")
Seeing in the Spirit the proof of the word of God which is the name of Jesus, one is also chosen through Jesus.
Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance. 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--kept in heaven for you,
(Note: An inheritance:
Eze 44:28 "`I am to be the only inheritance the priests have. You are to give them no possession in Israel; I will be their possession.
1Pe 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
(Note:The salvation:
Ps 3:8 From Yahweh comes deliverance. May your blessing be on your people.)
2Th 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the faith.
[The faith:
Ro 16:25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey the faith-- 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
(Through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, believe and obey the faith, and one is chosen.)
Eph 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
(Note: Chose us in Christ:
2Co 3:3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
Christ is ministered by Paul)
Ro 9:5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.]
Ro 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
1Th 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.
(Receive the faith, imitate the Lord, and one is chosen)
Please think: how could one be chosen in the doctrines of men? Because you have not worn the vestment; only he who speaks with the mouth the Word of God in the name of Jesus can be chosen.

[tapero]

Many are called, but few are chosen. Read johnchao's thread A book to make you a real non-denominational, and you will get a clear understanding of how to be chosen.

i already am chosen.

As well as are all who have come to Christ and will come to Christ in the future.

[zeke37]

Nice Post Stranger

Well laid out...

and I could not agree more...

There is the elect....one would be wise to study the word...elect...in the scriptures....

many will claim Christ, but to many He will say...I never knew you...


in His service
c

[Philippe2]

i already am chosen.

As well as are all who have come to Christ and will come to Christ in the future.
AMEN!:clap:

[tapero]

Nice Post Stranger

Well laid out...

and I could not agree more...

There is the elect....one would be wise to study the word...elect...in the scriptures....

many will claim Christ, but to many He will say...I never knew you...


in His service
c


Please note the scripture about I never knew you are about NON BELIEVERS who never came to Christ,and think that by their powers to heal, etc, or 'good work's that they are saved.

They are not christians who lose salvation, as Christians never lose salvation. It speaks only of those never saved as obvious since Jesus says I never knew you.

[stranger]

Jesus shows who are chosen [elect] , the few elecxt are none other than the remnant of Israel's childeren [descendants, listed by tribe , named after the sons of Jacob they are descended from in Rev 7:3-8

But the mistake most people majke is to think that only the chosen few can be saved... whereas Jesu clearly says that the many [who go by the broad way, not the narrow way of the remnant, are saved afterward TOO...

If someone says you are chosen then you ask 'chosen for what?'... why not find out then who the chosen of scripture are chosen for and who God says they are, not sinners, ,from the scripture..?

Then perhaps we can get past this old mistake and undersatnd what Jesus said long before this mistake became christian rhetoric ...

Heck, why not go teh whole hog and read that the covenant of grace is ONLY with the house of Judah [Jews] and the House of Israel [paganised, living for generations as gentiles] and read why Jesus is the messiah [king, christ] of Israel , re-uniting the ansient nations descemndants and forgiving them, ruling them as king over them as kings [hence king of kings] and they ruling the gentiles of all nations resurrected in the kingdom of God... the bible story makes sense... the idea that God resurrects sinners who He alkready condemned just to punish them, makes no sense whatsoever ... why bother when they are dead already and have paid for their sind in death... why bring them back to life at all, let alone baptising them into all truth and their living righteously in the new earth [thus perfecting their love as saints]

The christian tale thus doesn't fit the scripture at all,and is told only by sinners, not by the saints and prophets of God in scripture... so why believe it in place of scripture, why not believe the scriptuarl gospel f the messiah prophesied by god's own prophets to unite israel into a holy nation of kings and priests ???

[tapero]

Jesus shows who rae chosen, the few elecxt are none other than the remnant of Israel's childeren [descendants, listed by tribe , named after the sons of Jacob they are descended from in Rev 7:3-8

But the mistake most people majke is to think that only the chosen few can be saved... whereas Jesu clearly says that the many [who go by the broad way, not the narrow way of the remnant, are saved afterward TOO...

If someone says you are chosen then you ask 'chosen for what?... why not find out who the chosen are chosen for from the scripture..?

Yje n perhaps we can get past this mistake and undersatnd what Jesus said long before this mistake became christian rhetoric ...

The chosen are those who will or already believe in Christ.

[tapero]

Jesus shows who are chosen [elect] , the few elecxt are none other than the remnant of Israel's childeren [descendants, listed by tribe , named after the sons of Jacob they are descended from in Rev 7:3-8

But the mistake most people majke is to think that only the chosen few can be saved... whereas Jesu clearly says that the many [who go by the broad way, not the narrow way of the remnant, are saved afterward TOO...

If someone says you are chosen then you ask 'chosen for what?'... why not find out then who the chosen of scripture are chosen for and who God says they are, not sinners, ,from the scripture..?

Then perhaps we can get past this old mistake and undersatnd what Jesus said long before this mistake became christian rhetoric ...

Heck, why not go teh whole hog and read that the covenant of grace is ONLY with the house of Judah [Jews] and the House of Israel [paganised, living for generations as gentiles] and read why Jesus is the messiah [king, christ] of Israel , re-uniting the ansient nations descemndants and forgiving them, ruling them as king over them as kings [hence king of kings] and they ruling the gentiles of all nations resurrected in the kingdom of God... the bible story makes sense... the idea that God resurrects sinners who He alkready condemned just to punish them, makes no sense whatsoever ... why bother when they are dead already and have paid for their sind in death... why bring them back to life at all, let alone baptising them into all truth and their living righteously in the new earth [thus perfecting their love as saints]

The christian tale thus doesn't fit the scripture at all,and is told only by sinners, not by the saints and prophets of God in scripture... so why believe it in place of scripture, why not believe the scriptuarl gospel f the messiah prophesied by god's own prophets to unite israel into a holy nation of kings and priests ???

I read the bible and do not go with rhetoric, nor theologies, nor doctrines espoused by man.

Not sure what you're talking about above, but I can tell you clearly that those who come to Christ by faith are believers and never lose their salvation.

Prior to Christ, men were also saved by their faith in God alone.

These are things important to be taught and not mislead those seeking Jesus by things that are not for this dispensation, nor things that were never required by God as many add many hoops to how to come to Christ, etc.

One way to Christ, belief in Him, grace only, nothing more, the walk follows.

[stranger]

I read the bible and do not go with rhetoric, nor theologies, nor doctrines espoused by man.

Not sure what you're talking about above, but I can tell you clearly that those who come to Christ by faith are believers and never lose their salvation.

Prior to Christ, men were also saved by their faith in God alone.

These are things important to be taught and not mislead those seeking Jesus by things that are not for this dispensation, nor things that were never required by God as many add many hoops to how to come to Christ, etc.

One way to Christ, belief in Him, grace only, nothing more, the walk follows.

Simply read the new covannat of grace and SEE who God says it is with ... Heb 8:8-12 ... those whose fathers broke the old covenant...

These are the only ones receiving grace in this life accrding to God ;s own new covenant... you say that you read the bible, try again... and take in what it actually says . intead of what you want it to say ...

then you can begin learning why from the rest of scripture... about the one king, the messiah, sent to re-unite all Israel into a holy nation of kings and priests to minister in God's kingdom come on the earth , but not on this earth

As for faith, it is indeed the way, but is ONLY given by God, we cannot take faith, it is only given , and only given to the few in this life, few find the narrow straight way of faith in this life, but amny are saved after this life [Rev 7:9-10] ... again read it, believe what Jesus says here...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Thus God chose and stated from the beginning who would be redeem,med first, and israel thus require unmerited forgiveness because they sinned in rejecting the old covenant... but those whose fathers broke the old covenant are now forgiven in their new covenant... just read it , what it says...Heb 8:8-12 in your own bible...

[tapero]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Many misinterpret this scripture as due to what is taught at churches and not read for what the truth is or easily glossed over.


8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 1


Salvation is the gift not faith, and this is what the above verse is about.

And many do not realize this, but is the truth. The gift is salvation.

The gift is the entire concept of salvation by grace through faith. Salvation is God's gift to us.


So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "Their sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.



If God gives us the faith to believe in Christ, then we do not have free will to make a choice.

Salvation is a gift, merely needs be accepted, or believe in Christ.

In regards to faith:
There is another place where faith is given to some as a gift, but that's a whole different topic, it's regarding gifts. Not at all to do with this passage.

Also take note of the faith chapter in hebrews, and please note that God did not give Noah, or Abraham, or the rest, the faith to believe and do what they did.

[zeke37]

Hello...

I did note the scripture sister;

Please note the scripture about I never knew you are about NON BELIEVERS who never came to Christ,and think that by their powers to heal, etc, or 'good work's that they are saved.

They are not christians who lose salvation, as Christians never lose salvation. It speaks only of those never saved as obvious since Jesus says I never knew you.

Scripture speaks louder than opinion....so...let's see if they are believers or not...if they came to Christ or not...?

Mat7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:


14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



So I ask you, is ... "in thy name"...not enough of a proof that they were Christians?

The vast majority of professing Christians shall not have travelled that strait/narrow gate at His return. Only a few will....iniquity is (IMO) those Christians that get fooled and follow/worship the antiChrist (Satan cast from heaven) when he comes pretending to be Messiah....as well as those that just pay Him lip service....sit on a pew once a week for 1 hour and then live secular the rest of the time.

If you don't want to accept the scripture provided, fine...but it is plain to most of us here. Christ is speaking of those who profess Him, but are not elect...for ONLY the elect shall enter that gate....at that time.

...but there is the Millennium, and many shall be judged worthy at the end of the Millennium at the Judgement of God...after they have been shown and taught the truth for 1000 years.


in His service
c

[stranger]

Salvation is the gift not faith, and this is what the above verse is about.

And many do not realize this, but is the truth. The gift is salvation.

The gift is the entire concept of salvation by grace through faith. Salvation is God's gift to us.

The verse says that salvation comes throuh faith, thus BOTH are the gift, but faith is the first part of the gift and salvation follws it

So you have simply made a private interpretation of what it says to try and ignore that faith is GIVEN, not taken...

[stranger]

Hello...

I did note the scripture sister;



Scripture speaks louder than opinion....so...let's see if they are believers or not...if they came to Christ or not...?

Mat7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:


14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



So I ask you, is ... "in thy name"...not enough of a proof that they were Christians?

The vast majority of professing Christians shall not have travelled that strait/narrow gate at His return. Only a few will....iniquity is (IMO) those Christians that get fooled and follow/worship the antiChrist (Satan cast from heaven) when he comes pretending to be Messiah....as well as those that just pay Him lip service....sit on a pew once a week for 1 hour and then live secular the rest of the time.

If you don't want to accept the scripture provided, fine...but it is plain to most of us here. Christ is speaking of those who profess Him, but are not elect...for ONLY the elect shall enter that gate....at that time.

...but there is the Millennium, and many shall be judged worthy at the end of the Millennium at the Judgement of God...after they have been shown and taught the truth for 1000 years.


in His service
c

Please go back, and read that the MANY [of Rev 7:9-10] come to Jesus through destruction [just as Jesus was destroyed (apoleia]) in cricifixion and yet was resurrected...

Thus all the sinners of this earth are reurrected, but not until the resurrection of the unjust, the second resurrection... and that is after the millenium, not before it ...

We alos know that God will give all truth at last to all men , baptising all flesh in His spirit [Joel 2:28, John 16:13] and clearly did not give all truth to all sinners in this world before death

Thus we know that the many will live righteous ly as saints in the kingdom of God in the new earth :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Thus the MANY perfect their love in trial in the new earth, the few only do so in this earth... Satan is even released after the millenium , despite that he has been snared by God at Jesus' return and lock away for the millenium , since Satan is required for the temptation of the many in their trial to perfect love in the new earth, just as he did for Jesus and the few in this earth :-

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Thus it is crucial to realise that all men are not saved at the same time , and to realise when this earth is destroyed [one cannot ths get to the new earth except through death and resurrection as a sinner or by translation to spirit as a saint in this earth... the many and the few thus go by different paths, but both eventually follow the way of Jesus, of spirit baptism follwed by baptism of Fire :-

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost [B]and with fire:

1 Peter 1:7 That [I]the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
The perfection of love in trial is the step almost all christian churches OMIT in their teachings , one cannot cheat one's way to God though , Jesus will reject[B] all sinners at his return, he says so unambiguously :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

--- It is as well then to believe him !! but we know most christian sinners already do not believe this saying of Jesus , but follow sinners' teachings instead:-

Luke 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

Keeping a few scriptures and ignoring the rest is not the way to the earliest salvation of the few, but to salvation after death and the second resurrection, something that most christians already no longer believe ...

[zeke37]

Please go back, and read that the MANY [of Rev 7:9-10] come to Jesus through destruction [just as Jesus was destroyed (apoleia]) in cricifixion and yet was resurrected...

I never denied that ?

Thus all the sinners of this earth are reurrected, but not until the resurrection of the unjust, the second resurrection... and that is after the millenium, not before it ...

I agree, BESIDES the 144,000 elect AND the kinds of the ethnos AND that multitude that makes up Christ's army...the dead in Christ...that return with Him at the 7th trump. They are in the 1st resurrection...

but the rest of the dead and those non elect who are alive at His coming, are / if they overcome, in the second ressurection...but if they don't overcome, they are in the second death, the death of the soul in the lake of Fire.

We alos know that God will give all truth at last to all men , baptising all flesh in His spirit [Joel 2:28, John 16:13] and clearly did not give all truth to all sinners in this world before death

When did I give you that impression?

Thus we know that the many will live righteous ly as saints in the kingdom of God in the new earth :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Thus the MANY perfect their love in trial in the new earth, the few only do so in this earth...

I do not disagree...

Satan is even released after the millenium , despite that he has been snared by God at Jesus' return and lock away for the millenium , since Satan is required for the temptation of the many in their trial to perfect love in the new earth, just as he did for Jesus and the few in this earth :-

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Thus it is crucial to realise that all men are not saved at the same time ,

Oh I know that...

and to realise when this earth is destroyed [one cannot ths get to the new earth except through death and resurrection as a sinner or by translation to spirit as a saint in this earth... the many and the few thus go by different paths, but both eventually follow the way of Jesus, of spirit baptism follwed by baptism of Fire :-

I disagree with your last line...The wide path leads to destruction...and you do realize that this earth AGE is destroyed right....? Not the earth itself right? Those spiritual bodies that we shall inhabit are going to do so right here forever...if we are one that overcomes.

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost [B]and with fire:

1 Peter 1:7 That [I]the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
The perfection of love in trial is the step almost all christian churches OMIT in their teachings , one cannot cheat one's way to God though , Jesus will reject[B] all sinners at his return, he says so unambiguously :-

But His election and kings of the ethnos...they are not rejected but made ready for the wedding...

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

--- It is as well then to believe him !! but we know most christian sinners already do not believe this saying of Jesus , but follow sinners' teachings instead:-

I agree...

Luke 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

Keeping a few scriptures and ignoring the rest is not the way to the earliest salvation of the few, but to salvation after death and the second resurrection, something that most christians already no longer believe ...

I believe that we may disagree on who is part of the first resurrection then? I say that it is the elect and the kings of the ethnos, alive on earth at His coming, ....and they cannot precede those who come with Christ, as they are already resurrected and alive with Him (waiting to return and returning with Him)...

these alive on earth at His coming, and those dead in Him, are ALL part of the first resurrection. do you disagree?

and I really do not know why you addressed this to me, as I agree with most of what you say...you have made it sound as if I do not??? If I gave you the wrong impression, sorry?

in His service
c

[tapero]

Hello...

I did note the scripture sister;



Scripture speaks louder than opinion....so...let's see if they are believers or not...if they came to Christ or not...?

Mat7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:


14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



So I ask you, is ... "in thy name"...not enough of a proof that they were Christians?

The vast majority of professing Christians shall not have travelled that strait/narrow gate at His return. Only a few will....iniquity is (IMO) those Christians that get fooled and follow/worship the antiChrist (Satan cast from heaven) when he comes pretending to be Messiah....as well as those that just pay Him lip service....sit on a pew once a week for 1 hour and then live secular the rest of the time.

If you don't want to accept the scripture provided, fine...but it is plain to most of us here. Christ is speaking of those who profess Him, but are not elect...for ONLY the elect shall enter that gate....at that time.

...but there is the Millennium, and many shall be judged worthy at the end of the Millennium at the Judgement of God...after they have been shown and taught the truth for 1000 years.


in His service
c

Many say they are doing things in Gods name; that's the point, they aren't. They think they are, they are in fact decieved, and some intentionally out to fleece.

So, because a man says in thy name makes them a Christian? No! Never! Anyone can say that. Anyone.

If God says I never knew you, He never knew them, they never believed!

Christians are known by God

But the man who loves God is known by God.

But now that you know God—or rather are known by God

Not sure if you believe the rapture will occur, but if you do or even if you don't (which I have a feeling you might not) then all believers are gone from earth when tribulation period starts. During that time the 7 years, people will come to Christ. They will be in a different dispenstion then we are now, which is grace.

They will be under different commandments and such as God says they will be under.

So, anyway, none of us alive until the rapture will be part of the tribulation. Again, tribution period of 7 years starts with all non believers, and people will come to Christ in that period.

So what you are saying about people being decieved by satan is about the tribulation and pertains to the people who are alive in the tribulation.

Lord Lord scripture is about Non believers. No doubt, never knew God nor was known by God. Very common, happens all the time, many believe they are Christians are not, and many are intentionally out to fleece the flock and may also think they are Christians are are not.

The 1000 year reign follows the tribulation 7 year period and Jesus will reign on earth with an iron fist for 1000 years. We do not know what that means, but non Christians will be part of it, as at the end of the 1000 years, satan is released, decieves the nations and they all go to the beautiful city to war against, and God wipes em out.

After that comes the judgement.

For believers is works only judgement for loss or gain of reward only in heaven. Sin all forgiven when came to Christ..salavation secure at same time, as Holy Spirit indwells when one comes to Christ, and is a seal, mark, guaranteeing redemption (salvation.) No doubt about it.

For non believers the judgement is done and they are cast to hell, having never recieved forgiveness for sins, and same likewise as they never believed in Christ hence never recieved forgiveness.

If you can try not to attack me with your posts I'm willing to continue to post.

Have a few questions for you.

Are you perfect? Do you ever sin? Have you attained perfection? Do you ever stray from the straight and narrow path? Do you live in fear that you may not be saved if you fail at any moment? Do you keep all the commandments perfectly?

What exactly must one do to be saved in your belief?

The reason I ask such is it appears to me you are saying such is how people get saved, tho I may have misunderstood.

So, please do answer each of those, I'd like to know.

I don't know who the MANY you refer to as agree to all you post. MANY disagree as well.

[tapero]

The verse says that salvation comes throuh faith, thus BOTH are the gift, but faith is the first part of the gift and salvation follws it

So you have simply made a private interpretation of what it says to try and ignore that faith is GIVEN, not taken...

Hi, no faith is not a gift in that verse. Salvation is the gift.

Can spend time on this if you would like me to, but no it's clear we have to have faith and that comes from us. Is how we come to Christ. One verse quicky comes to mind; when the apostles were trying to cast out a demon I believe, and they couldn't and asked Jesus why, and He said Oh ye, of little faith.

Also, if you had the faith of a mustard seed...

Faith is not the gift in that verse, common misunderstanding of that scripture so commonly taught so many believe such.

Christ did not die to give us faith.
Christ died for our sins, and the gift is accepting his payment for our sins, by believing thru faith, which is not a gift.

Again, this does not relate to the chapter on Gifts, where some are given different things. I bring that up only to be sure people are aware, but that is unrelated to this passage and is only given to some, just like all gifts are given to some, given to one not the other, etc.

I know what it's like to have the gift of faith, but again has nothing to do with above verse.

Not ignoring anything; I'm telling you the gift is salvation, and the verse clearly shows such, but is commonly misinterpreted.

Jesus didn't die so we would have faith.

In old testament before Christ men came to God by faith.

God did not give them faith to believe, they believed because they chose to believe. Just as we do.

If God gives us the faith to believe as erroneously believed, then we are not free will creatures.

But indeed God created us with free will as you surely know some will accept christ thru faith and some will not.

The hebrews saw Gods presence and still majority did not believe, even tho God was with them.

[zeke37]

Many say they are doing things in Gods name; that's the point, they aren't. They think they are, they are in fact decieved, and some intentionally out to fleece.

So, because a man says in thy name makes them a Christian? No! Never! Anyone can say that. Anyone.

Can anyone cast out demons? We must use His name to do so....

but you have your understanding and that is fine by me. I do not agree, as is my right.

If God says I never knew you, He never knew them, they never believed!

Christians are known by God

God knows His enemies too! And He knows the Christian people. He knows that we are sinners even while believing in His Son.

There are those that claim Christ that are not truly of Christ...that we agree on. Those true Christians are the elect...and in the past, the remnant of the elect...

These elect Christians are the ONLY ones that will be in the first Resurrection....all others will not be, but MUST go through the Millennium.




Not sure if you believe the rapture will occur,

not the way you do.

but if you do or even if you don't (which I have a feeling you might not) then all believers are gone from earth when tribulation period starts.

Pure fiction. See Ez13 for warnings against flying away to save your soul.

During that time the 7 years, people will come to Christ. They will be in a different dispenstion then we are now, which is grace.

Absolutely incorrect sister. The sealed (elect) must be so before the tribulation starts...and the tribulation is not 7 years...that is a tradition of man....as is the pre trib rapture.

They will be under different commandments and such as God says they will be under.

Where does the Word of God state that? The Word of God is everlasting and cannot change. It can be fulfilled but not changed.

So, anyway, none of us alive until the rapture will be part of the tribulation. Again, tribution period of 7 years starts with all non believers, and people will come to Christ in that period.

Pure fantasy. Left behind series and Hollywood.

See 2Thes2 for the REALITY.

The son of Perdition MUST come first and there be a falling away...the great Apostasy...

BEFORE any Gathering to Christ....or rapture as you say...

Have you not read???

So what you are saying about people being decieved by satan is about the tribulation and pertains to the people who are alive in the tribulation.

Since no one is going anywhere, this includes Christians...ALL the people of the World, save the elect...shall be deceived by Satan.

Lord Lord scripture is about Non believers.

No mam...it is about those that believe in God but are not strong in faith and will believe a preacher over the Word....they listen and accept doctrine without rightly dividing the Word of God...so to be edified.

No doubt, never knew God nor was known by God.

I disagree

Very common, happens all the time, many believe they are Christians are not, and many are intentionally out to fleece the flock and may also think they are Christians are are not.

Well we agree there.

The 1000 year reign follows the tribulation 7 year period and Jesus will reign on earth with an iron fist for 1000 years.

The trib has been shortened for the Elect's sake...(see Rev9 for the length of time) the same elect that will be working and testifying for Christ in that tribulation (2 candlesticks, part of the two witnesses of Rev11). The ones that NEVER bow a knee to Satan...not a fictional bunch that come to Christ during the trib...

The point is that ALL are fooled but the elect...the elect are not fooled, and stay spiritual virgins awaiting the Lords return....but rapturists *(IMO) are the most likely to be fooled by the fake Jesus, when He get here proclaiming the soon coming rapture....you guys and gals may just believe him and worship him as Jesus returned....

We do not know what that means, but non Christians will be part of it,

we know exactly what that means...some don't wanna hear it though...some eyes and ears have been closed to the truth...by God Himself (to protect them from making a horrible choice) if God closes someones eyes and ears, then they are still innocent to an extent...

all those with their eyes and ears closed to the real truths of God's Word, will ahve to go through the Millennium....God does this out of love...to protect His children, and teach them right from wrong. All but the elect shall have their eyes and ears closed...

compare with the parables of Christ....He spoke parables to the general people, so that they would not all understand....it was part of the plan......

and then He would explain them in detail to His disciples.

The whole truth is not for everyone....not yet anyway...byt again, there is the 1000 years...of learning...

as at the end of the 1000 years, satan is released, decieves the nations and they all go to the beautiful city to war against, and God wipes em out.

The ones that he deceives are the Christians and the others, who were fooled by him (Satan) the first time....
(Satan play acting Jesus, fooling all the non-studied week Christians that believe whatever is preached instead of checking it out for themselves...

the elect and dead in Christ teach and reign over them for that 1000 years....under Christ of course.

After that comes the judgement.

and the second resurrection .... or the second death, the death of the soul in the lake of Fire.

For believers is works only judgement for loss or gain of reward only in heaven.

I don't know what you mean to say here. Language barrier...although you communicate very well.

Sin all forgiven when came to Christ..salvation secure at same time, as Holy Spirit indwells when one comes to Christ, and is a seal, mark, guaranteeing redemption (salvation.) No doubt about it.

Well I partly agree.

A believer in Christ will be saved, no doubt....but when is the big point. Belief in Christ does not guarantee you salvation in this flesh body.....but there is the Millennium, the real time of teaching, and it is my understanding that the believers, even those that got fooled by antiChrist, shall be saved by the end of the 1000 years...

...but for now, no. Many will have to go through the cleansing of the Trib and Millennium.

All but the small percentage of elect, who by the way are the only ones sealed with God's mark. Just because you are a Christian does not mean that you automatically get a pass from the trib and that you do not have to endure the Millennium....that privilege is only for the elect, who were chosen BEFORE this age, and as such, their reward is not based on anything that they have done in this life....but what they did in the life before the flesh, before the foundations of the world...

For non believers the judgement is done and they are cast to hell, having never recieved forgiveness for sins, and same likewise as they never believed in Christ hence never recieved forgiveness.

If you can try not to attack me with your posts I'm willing to continue to post.

I am not attacking, just disagreeing....not laughing or poking fun at you...just my opinion vs yours.

I believe in the gathering to Christ, just not when you do. I believe that there is not a pre trib rapture, and the very thought of one is weak and lazy minded. I think that it dishonours God when people teach that we shall fly away before the trib that is to come upon the whole world.

There is an incredible amount of proof about the timing of the return of Christ, and it is certainly not anytime before the 7th trump (Rev14), so that is when the gathering is to be....not before as you teach. God is against those who teach His children to fly to save their souls. Ez13... and this about false female preachers.....hmmm. Combine false doctrine, flying and false female prophets.... Margret MacDonald ring any bells?

Have a few questions for you.

Are you perfect?

God no.


Do you ever sin?

unfortunately yes.

Have you attained perfection?

no,

Do you ever stray from the straight and narrow path?

Yes, as that is what sin is.

Do you live in fear that you may not be saved if you fail at any moment?

No, although I realize that it is vital to run the entire race, and try....

we all sin, and that is what repentance is for....ask for forgiveness and we shall receive it....even 70x7 times a day...

Do you keep all the commandments perfectly?

No. I wish I did.

What exactly must one do to be saved in your belief?

Again. I think that we are misunderstanding one another.

The point that I am making is that...

it is not all said and done for believers in this flesh life.

There is the Millennium as you well know, and in that time, is when most of Christianity shall come to a real true belief....not before...

so, while I am not saying that Christians are not saved by their belief....(it is not JUST their belief) but I am saying that there is a time for all to be accepted by God...

for most alive today...that time is not going to be before the trib, as you think but rather after.

only the 144,000 will overcome in the flesh......all other Christians shall not overcome in the flesh. They shall need to be refined and taught the truth for the 1000 years....and then if they overcome Satan's release...they shall live forever...if not, they shall be destroyed...soul and all in the lake of Fire.

The reason I ask such is it appears to me you are saying such is how people get saved, tho I may have misunderstood.

The Word defines how one is saved...

A deep study revealed to me how in this dispensation, only a handful will overcome (elect)....and the rest shall have to learn the truth, and then be tested again....and judged by God. The rest as I said, are composed of Christians...and others...

So, please do answer each of those, I'd like to know.

I have.

I don't know who the MANY you refer to as agree to all you post. MANY disagree as well.

I'm sure that they do, free will and all (to most) but I don't know what you are referring to.

have a good day.

in His service
c

[tapero]

Hi, I copied the whole post as wouldn't quote as you answered mostly in the quote, so I'll dot thru in red, below your blue:

Many say they are doing things in Gods name; that's the point, they aren't. They think they are, they are in fact decieved, and some intentionally out to fleece.

So, because a man says in thy name makes them a Christian? No! Never! Anyone can say that. Anyone.

Can anyone cast out demons? We must use His name to do so....

but you have your understanding and that is fine by me. I do not agree, as is my right.
Check the old testament for powers that men use which he calls detestable. Also, because someone said they cast out demons, does not make it truth. When one reads the word, one needs to take many things into consideration such as that. So, if you're basing it on only those who use Jesus name can can out demons, and clearly Jesus says I never knew you, then most likely no demons were cast out, nor healings occur. We hear today of those who claim to heal, and we hear that someone will say I was healed but in two weeks came back.

so those claiming such to Jesus may never have done what they said, they just thought such occured, how would they even know about demons being cast out, since they are non believers to begin with.
If God says I never knew you, He never knew them, they never believed!

Christians are known by God
not sure i wrote below in orange, but it's not in blue, so i put in orange, as i don't think i wrote it. tho i agree with it.
God knows His enemies too! And He knows the Christian people. He knows that we are sinners even while believing in His Son.

There are those that claim Christ that are not truly of Christ...that we agree on. Those true Christians are the elect...and in the past, the remnant of the elect...

These elect Christians are the ONLY ones that will be in the first Resurrection....all others will not be, but MUST go through the Millennium.

I'm not going to worry about terms such as elect, the church, remnant etc, as none of that matters much in the topics we are discussing, so tho, once the rapture, no believers left, but in the tribulatin time, the 144,0 00 seem to play a part there. I believe is witnessing.

after the tribulation is the 1000 year reign, so survivors of the tribulation appears to be what populates the world during that time.

Not sure if you believe the rapture will occur,

not the way you do.

but if you do or even if you don't (which I have a feeling you might not) then all believers are gone from earth when tribulation period starts.

Pure fiction. See Ez13 for warnings against flying away to save your soul.
are you sayng this to me? to save my soul? I'm saved, sealed and can never lose my salvation nor can any believer. If you did mean this to me, this will be the end of our communiations.
During that time the 7 years, people will come to Christ. They will be in a different dispenstion then we are now, which is grace.

Absolutely incorrect sister. The sealed (elect) must be so before the tribulation starts...and the tribulation is not 7 years...that is a tradition of man....as is the pre trib rapture.
Try not to insult me using terms rhetoric and tradition. I go by neither, nor by pastor preach/radio preach/tv preach/famous preach/commentaries/tradition/denominational theologies/doctrines/etc. i go by the bible, so drop that bit please. thanks.

See daniel 9
They will be under different commandments and such as God says they will be under.

Where does the Word of God state that? The Word of God is everlasting and cannot change. It can be fulfilled but not changed.
It states in revelatin the the things that will occur, such as if one take the mark of the beast no salvation, also, many other things in revealation, which is apparent of a different dispensation than what we are now in. May be also in daniel andother prophtic books, not sure if it's you i wrote this too, but I'm not well studied in prophecy, but do know, that those who come to christ in the tribulation time are not under the same grace we now have in this day. So, did a quick search on a few chapters and so will have to let this go, as is not my intererest really as much also.
So, anyway, none of us alive until the rapture will be part of the tribulation. Again, tribution period of 7 years starts with all non believers, and people will come to Christ in that period.

Pure fantasy. Left behind series and Hollywood.

See 2Thes2 for the REALITY.

The son of Perdition MUST come first and there be a falling away...the great Apostasy...

BEFORE any Gathering to Christ....or rapture as you say...

Have you not read???
Again, stop saying what you think i gain wht i know from, explained same above, won't repeat.

I do read, and am tired of your style of posting. resouding clang basically. God speaks of such, those with no love
So what you are saying about people being decieved by satan is about the tribulation and pertains to the people who are alive in the tribulation.

Since no one is going anywhere, this includes Christians...ALL the people of the World, save the elect...shall be deceived by Satan.
christians will never be decieved, tho this may be part of the tribulation period, where i said earlier that they are in a different dispensation then we are now in, and may apply to wht you are speaking of above. I'm again, saying i'm moving away from elect, remnant, etc, as you limit the number of Chrsitains by such usage, nd in fact anyone who believes in Christ is saved, sealed an will never lose their salvation - however it may be different and be referring to ONLY those in the 7 year tribulation who are in a differnt dispensatoin than we now are.
Lord Lord scripture is about Non believers.

No mam...it is about those that believe in God but are not strong in faith and will believe a preacher over the Word....they listen and accept doctrine without rightly dividing the Word of God...so to be edified.
If Jesus said is never knew you, He mean he never knew them. so, either you believe that or you don't christians are sealed, and can not lose their salvation; recall the nt girl fotelling the future, had a demon, the pysics, magicians, those who talk to dead, eetc in old testment detestable to God, had powre by demons, satan and demons have power of demons and the pharoahs men, used demon power to do what they did in exodus. So, anyone can have these powers, they are detestable to God. anyway.
No doubt, never knew God nor was known by God.

I disagree

Very common, happens all the time, many believe they are Christians are not, and many are intentionally out to fleece the flock and may also think they are Christians are are not.

Well we agree there.

The 1000 year reign follows the tribulation 7 year period and Jesus will reign on earth with an iron fist for 1000 years.

The trib has been shortened for the Elect's sake...(see Rev9 for the length of time) the same elect that will be working and testifying for Christ in that tribulation (2 candlesticks, part of the two witnesses of Rev11). The ones that NEVER bow a knee to Satan...not a fictional bunch that come to Christ during the trib...

The point is that ALL are fooled but the elect...the elect are not fooled, and stay spiritual virgins awaiting the Lords return....but rapturists *(IMO) are the most likely to be fooled by the fake Jesus, when He get here proclaiming the soon coming rapture....you guys and gals may just believe him and worship him as Jesus returned....
what a load... all Christians are saved, sealed and can never lose their salvation. The sheep know his voice. I think we're talking two dispensations here, the tribultion which is quite differnt and the period we are in now.
We do not know what that means, but non Christians will be part of it,

we know exactly what that means...some don't wanna hear it though...some eyes and ears have been closed to the truth...by God Himself (to protect them from making a horrible choice) if God closes someones eyes and ears, then they are still innocent to an extent...

all those with their eyes and ears closed to the real truths of God's Word, will ahve to go through the Millennium....God does this out of love...to protect His children, and teach them right from wrong. All but the elect shall have their eyes and ears closed...

compare with the parables of Christ....He spoke parables to the general people, so that they would not all understand....it was part of the plan......

and then He would explain them in detail to His disciples.

The whole truth is not for everyone....not yet anyway...byt again, there is the 1000 years...of learning...
Glad you know what is meant will rule with iron fist. Shows me you go to other mens sources to get some idea what it may mean; as clearly God does not say anyhwere in the bible, if little what it means when Jesus says will rule with iron fist. You have no clue, so either you are readng outside sources (others ideas) or u think you know exactly what Jesus meant, which we don't know, as it's not written.
as at the end of the 1000 years, satan is released, decieves the nations and they all go to the beautiful city to war against, and God wipes em out.

The ones that he deceives are the Christians and the others, who were fooled by him (Satan) the first time....
(Satan play acting Jesus, fooling all the non-studied week Christians that believe whatever is preached instead of checking it out for themselves...

the elect and dead in Christ teach and reign over them for that 1000 years....under Christ of course.
It says decieves the nations, not the Christians, so tho in the end times; I am not clear at the end of the 1000 years other than what's shown above. but all christians are saved, and never lose their salvation, no matter how much you write they can, except for one instance, it may be that those in tribulation time who do not persevere or such, may lose their salvation, that is why i keep saying they are under a difffent dispensation.
After that comes the judgement.

and the second resurrection .... or the second death, the death of the soul in the lake of Fire.

For believers is works only judgement for loss or gain of reward only in heaven.

I don't know what you mean to say here. Language barrier...although you communicate very well.

Sin all forgiven when came to Christ..salvation secure at same time, as Holy Spirit indwells when one comes to Christ, and is a seal, mark, guaranteeing redemption (salvation.) No doubt about it.

Well I partly agree.

A believer in Christ will be saved, no doubt....but when is the big point. Belief in Christ does not guarantee you salvation in this flesh body.....but there is the Millennium, the real time of teaching, and it is my understanding that the believers, even those that got fooled by antiChrist, shall be saved by the end of the 1000 years...

...but for now, no. Many will have to go through the cleansing of the Trib and Millennium.

All but the small percentage of elect, who by the way are the only ones sealed with God's mark. Just because you are a Christian does not mean that you automatically get a pass from the trib and that you do not have to endure the Millennium....that privilege is only for the elect, who were chosen BEFORE this age, and as such, their reward is not based on anything that they have done in this life....but what they did in the life before the flesh, before the foundations of the world...
oh i see, you think us the die, are gonna have to go thru the trib and be here for the 1000 year reign. not... would love ot be in the 1000 year reign but no, we won' tbe there.
For non believers the judgement is done and they are cast to hell, having never recieved forgiveness for sins, and same likewise as they never believed in Christ hence never recieved forgiveness.

If you can try not to attack me with your posts I'm willing to continue to post.

I am not attacking, just disagreeing....not laughing or poking fun at you...just my opinion vs yours.

I believe in the gathering to Christ, just not when you do. I believe that there is not a pre trib rapture, and the very thought of one is weak and lazy minded. I think that it dishonours God when people teach that we shall fly away before the trib that is to come upon the whole world.
i am not weak or lazy minded, so i can say of you that you are weak and lazy minded to believe otherwise.
There is an incredible amount of proof about the timing of the return of Christ, and it is certainly not anytime before the 7th trump (Rev14), so that is when the gathering is to be....not before as you teach. God is against those who teach His children to fly to save their souls. Ez13... and this about false female preachers.....hmmm. Combine false doctrine, flying and false female prophets.... Margret MacDonald ring any bells?

Have a few questions for you.

Are you perfect?

God no.


Do you ever sin?

unfortunately yes.

Have you attained perfection?

no,

Do you ever stray from the straight and narrow path?

Yes, as that is what sin is.

Do you live in fear that you may not be saved if you fail at any moment?

No, although I realize that it is vital to run the entire race, and try....

we all sin, and that is what repentance is for....ask for forgiveness and we shall receive it....even 70x7 times a day...
what if you sin, and before you have the chance to ask forgieness, you trip and die...ugh..oh brother, why put such yokes on people..salvatin is free and Christ is the one who did all the work to give it to us...above is another works related salvation belief,
Do you keep all the commandments perfectly?

No. I wish I did.

What exactly must one do to be saved in your belief?

Again. I think that we are misunderstanding one another.

The point that I am making is that...

it is not all said and done for believers in this flesh life.
it's finished, we're saved..nothing can change that..actually when we're in heaven it's all done, but nothing can remove the Holy Spiritu which is in us, nevre gets removed, nor can one remove themself, they are sealed..all misunderstandings of the grace of Christ, and salvation which only comes thru him and nothing we ever ever do or don't do, except believe, and then we follow him, but all misunderstandings and misapplications comes from those who fail to recognize certain books and/or scritpures are regards differnt dispensatoins..this is why there is so much confusoin and theology and why so many make rules and hoops and such, when none actually exist, they are just not realizing what is written for those under one dispenstion versus another..

well mainly thats where it comes from,
There is the Millennium as you well know, and in that time, is when most of Christianity shall come to a real true belief....not before...
My walk with God and knowledge of God will always grow, but my belief is real as is many christians belief real, and is true because Christ is true. will never change, only get better learning more as we grow, and then in heaven we will forever be getting to know God more, we will have all eternity, for we wil be forever learning about his infinite love, and wisdom and knowledge, etc.
so, while I am not saying that Christians are not saved by their belief....(it is not JUST their belief) but I am saying that there is a time for all to be accepted by God...
All are accepted by God when we come to Christ, and it is only thru belief in Christ, nothing more.
for most alive today...that time is not going to be before the trib, as you think but rather after.

only the 144,000 will overcome in the flesh......all other Christians shall not overcome in the flesh. They shall need to be refined and taught the truth for the 1000 years....and then if they overcome Satan's release...they shall live forever...if not, they shall be destroyed...soul and all in the lake of Fire.
no, sorry christians are sealed, and the overcomers speaks to the those in the tribulation if i recall right, the other dispensatin which will be...but also we are overcomers now in our walk with christ..
The reason I ask such is it appears to me you are saying such is how people get saved, tho I may have misunderstood.

The Word defines how one is saved...

A deep study revealed to me how in this dispensation, only a handful will overcome (elect)....and the rest shall have to learn the truth, and then be tested again....and judged by God. The rest as I said, are composed of Christians...and others...

So, please do answer each of those, I'd like to know.

I have.

I don't know who the MANY you refer to as agree to all you post. MANY disagree as well.

I'm sure that they do, free will and all (to most) but I don't know what you are referring to.

have a good day.

in His service
c

wow, sys failed, but i copied before hitting send..butlost my last part..

think we're done here, as what we're talking about does't matter; you believe what you believe i believe what i believe, you claim due to your study; i know due to my study,

i hope someday you will not have to live in fear of constnt beleief that you have to do Christs completed work to gain salvation n the end.

there is one way only, thru belief in christ, and nothing more. and nothng we do afterwards ever loses our salvation. this may be dif in trib time,

prob is famous pastors and such which many follow, started preaching about easy believism..after this, many like you began thnking wow, yea, that doesn't seem right...believe in christ alone..
one must do thus and thus and thus etc.ad infinitum.

so i can tell tho you accuse me of it, that you are highly affected by more than the bible.

bible is clear salvation is by faith in christ. alone.
we never lose our salvation
verses and book which speak to differnt dispensations is where the confusion lies.

so anyway, im done, will read your reply but am done.

thanks
tapero

[stranger]

Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed’s seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

--This is the new covenant of grace with [ol;y] Israel's two still-divided Houses :-

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

God is not ambiguous here , there is no room for misunderstanding... one either believes Him or not , but those under the grace of this new covenant with Israel surely do believe Him and OBEY His law of love, that it the cease to be unloving, cease to be sinners...

But note from Isaiah above, it is not all Israel who take up the new covenant and are saved first ...

Nor does it matter really who is first , since God has said who will be first and men cannot change what God has decreed ...

But the point is that very many people believe what sinners preach, in place of this given by God through His prophets and through His saiints ... what point believing sinners that preach that sinners will be taken by Jesus at his return, when even Jesus has said explicitly that they will not ??? :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus even says preceeding this utter rejection of sinners at his return [for he comes only for the saints first] that many will come calling out "Lord, Lord" ... he makes the point ten that Jesus is NOT lord of sinners , for sinners do not obey his command to love ...so clearly he is not their lord [a lord is someone that one obeys]

[zeke37]

Hello

My new posts are in Green...my old posts are in BOLD BLUE

yours are in black red and light blue...but you get it I think.

[quote=tapero;37560509]Hi, I copied the whole post as wouldn't quote as you answered mostly in the quote, so I'll dot thru in red, below your blue:

Many say they are doing things in Gods name; that's the point, they aren't. They think they are, they are in fact decieved, and some intentionally out to fleece.

So, because a man says in thy name makes them a Christian? No! Never! Anyone can say that. Anyone.

Can anyone cast out demons? We must use His name to do so....

but you have your understanding and that is fine by me. I do not agree, as is my right.

Check the old testament for powers that men use which he calls detestable. Also, because someone said they cast out demons, does not make it truth. When one reads the word, one needs to take many things into consideration such as that. So, if you're basing it on only those who use Jesus name can can out demons, and clearly Jesus says I never knew you, then most likely no demons were cast out, nor healings occur.

Your opinion is contrary to what is actually stated though....it says that they DID drive demons out.

We hear today of those who claim to heal, and we hear that someone will say I was healed but in two weeks came back.

so those claiming such to Jesus may never have done what they said, they just thought such occured,

possible...

how would they even know about demons being cast out, since they are non believers to begin with.

they are not non-believers, and they did know about casting out demons, and knew enough to use the Lords name to do so...i cannot see how you say that they did not believe? Their faith may not be strong....but they still believed...

If God says I never knew you, He never knew them, they never believed!

That is your opinion.

Christians are known by God
not sure i wrote below in orange, but it's not in blue, so i put in orange, as i don't think i wrote it. tho i agree with it.
God knows His enemies too! And He knows the Christian people. He knows that we are sinners even while believing in His Son.

Yes I wrote that.


There are those that claim Christ that are not truly of Christ...that we agree on. Those true Christians are the elect...and in the past, the remnant of the elect...

These elect Christians are the ONLY ones that will be in the first Resurrection....all others will not be, but MUST go through the Millennium.

I'm not going to worry about terms such as elect, the church, remnant etc, as none of that matters much in the topics we are discussing, so tho, once the rapture, no believers left, but in the tribulatin time, the 144,0 00 seem to play a part there. I believe is witnessing.

The elect are here in the tribulation, not whisped away....no one alive at His coming, is Gathered to Christ early...before the 7th trump...but only at the 7th trump, AFTER the fake one get here, to deceive the Christians and the rest of the world.


after the tribulation is the 1000 year reign, so survivors of the tribulation appears to be what populates the world during that time.

There is no flesh in the Millennium....all have been changed to spirit bodies...thee are no survivers in the flesh....

but those alive at the time of Christ's arrival, will be changed.....and those are who populates the earth at that time...ruled by the elect and dead in Christ, under Christ of course...



Not sure if you believe the rapture will occur,

not the way you do.

but if you do or even if you don't (which I have a feeling you might not) then all believers are gone from earth when tribulation period starts.

Pure fiction. See Ez13 for warnings against flying away to save your soul.

are you sayng this to me? to save my soul? I'm saved, sealed and can never lose my salvation nor can any believer. If you did mean this to me, this will be the end of our communiations.

I repeat this to anyone that believes that they will fly away before the tribulation of the antiChrist....and I did not say it the first time, but God did. Take it for what you want to take it for.

During that time the 7 years, people will come to Christ. They will be in a different dispenstion then we are now, which is grace.

Not quire. The elect are SEALED before the tribulation....

your rapture belief has you thinking that all Christians are taken away....but they are not. No one is taken away early. The Saints in the Trib are the elect, who testify for God in the end days...in front of the son of Perditioin (Satan cast from heaven)

All other Christians are fooled by the Satan...playing his role as the antiChrist....the pretend Christ...

The sealed (elect) must be so before the tribulation starts...and the tribulation is not 7 years...that is a tradition of man....as is the pre trib rapture.

Try not to insult me using terms rhetoric and tradition.

If you follow the traditions of man, then perhaps you neeed to be edified to the contrary. The pre trib rapture theory is against God's Word....hence He is against anyone that teaches such...again see Ez13. Read it in a KJV.

I go by neither, nor by pastor preach/radio preach/tv preach/famous preach/commentaries/tradition/denominational theologies/doctrines/etc. i go by the bible, so drop that bit please. thanks.

OK then,.... who taught you about the rapture? It must have been the comontary of man, not the bible.


See daniel 9

about what, a 7 year trib. Masny people think that it is not refering to the 7 year trib...but even if it were, Christ taught that He shortened the trib time, fot he elect's sake.....why would He do that if the elect were not here?

They will be under different commandments and such as God says they will be under.

Like what different commandments? Explain?

Where does the Word of God state that? The Word of God is everlasting and cannot change. It can be fulfilled but not changed.

It states in revelatin the the things that will occur, such as if one take the mark of the beast no salvation,

and that is not a new commandment. It has been around sinse Cain? But it is no Salvation in the flesh??/or spirit?

also, many other things in revealation, which is apparent of a different dispensation than what we are now in.

No it is not a different dispensation. It is still the flesh age, and His grace will be here until He arrives....as the Holy Spirit never leaves the planet...

May be also in daniel andother prophtic books, not sure if it's you i wrote this too, but I'm not well studied in prophecy, but do know, that those who come to christ in the tribulation time are not under the same grace we now have in this day. So, did a quick search on a few chapters and so will have to let this go, as is not my intererest really as much also.

I don't think that you should teach things that you do not know about.

So, anyway, none of us alive until the rapture will be part of the tribulation. Again, tribution period of 7 years starts with all non believers, and people will come to Christ in that period.

Pure fantasy. Left behind series and Hollywood.

See 2Thes2 for the REALITY.

[zeke37]

The son of Perdition MUST come first and there be a falling away...the great Apostasy...

BEFORE any Gathering to Christ....or rapture as you say...

Have you not read???
Again, stop saying what you think i gain wht i know from, explained same above, won't repeat.

Have you not read that the son of Perdition MUST come first, before the Gathering to Christ? If not, then read 2Thes2. It is pretty clear.

Here, let me show you

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

So, when is the Gathering to Christ ... beofre the trib or after?

I do read, and am tired of your style of posting. resouding clang basically. God speaks of such, those with no love
So what you are saying about people being decieved by satan is about the tribulation and pertains to the people who are alive in the tribulation.

which is this generation, including ALL Christians.

Since no one is going anywhere, this includes Christians...ALL the people of the World, save the elect...shall be deceived by Satan.

christians will never be decieved,

Ya ok...

tho this may be part of the tribulation period, where i said earlier that they are in a different dispensation then we are now in, and may apply to wht you are speaking of above. I'm again, saying i'm moving away from elect, remnant, etc, as you limit the number of Chrsitains by such usage,

Take it up with the One who wrote it..

nd in fact anyone who believes in Christ is saved, sealed an will never lose their salvation - however it may be different and be referring to ONLY those in the 7 year tribulation who are in a differnt dispensatoin than we now are.

As you know some claim Christ, while not following in His path...that much is true for sure. Since they claim Christ, they are Christian...but still need to be refined as metal is refined...and God will do that refining in the Millennium....in that Millennium...it is definitely a different dispensation...

Lord Lord scripture is about Non believers.

No mam...it is about those that believe in God but are not strong in faith and will believe a preacher over the Word....they listen and accept doctrine without rightly dividing the Word of God...so to be edified.

If Jesus said is never knew you, He mean he never knew them. so, either you believe that or you don't

Oh I believe it sister, just not as you do. They had some faith, but not enough truth....and hence they followed the instead of Jesus. See the parable of the ten virgins.

christians are sealed, and can not lose their salvation;

the elect are sealed. Not all Christians.

recall the nt girl fotelling the future, had a demon, the pysics, magicians, those who talk to dead, eetc in old testment detestable to God, had powre by demons, satan and demons have power of demons and the pharoahs men, used demon power to do what they did in exodus. So, anyone can have these powers, they are detestable to God. anyway.

well I will agree with you there. But all of these powers as you say, are the influence of familiar spirits...and this teaching means that even a Christians can be influenced by these powers...unless you are filled with Christ, the evil spirits can inhabbit you.

No doubt, never knew God nor was known by God.

I disagree

Very common, happens all the time, many believe they are Christians are not, and many are intentionally out to fleece the flock and may also think they are Christians are are not.

Well we agree there.

The 1000 year reign follows the tribulation 7 year period and Jesus will reign on earth with an iron fist for 1000 years.

The trib has been shortened for the Elect's sake...(see Rev9 for the length of time) the same elect that will be working and testifying for Christ in that tribulation (2 candlesticks, part of the two witnesses of Rev11). The ones that NEVER bow a knee to Satan...not a fictional bunch that come to Christ during the trib...

The point is that ALL are fooled but the elect...the elect are not fooled, and stay spiritual virgins awaiting the Lords return....but rapturists *(IMO) are the most likely to be fooled by the fake Jesus, when He get here proclaiming the soon coming rapture....you guys and gals may just believe him and worship him as Jesus returned....
what a load... all Christians are saved, sealed and can never lose their salvation.

when do they receive the Salvation, in this life or the Millennium, is the thought that I wish to leave you with...

The sheep know his voice. I think we're talking two dispensations here, the tribultion which is quite differnt and the period we are in now.
We do not know what that means, but non Christians will be part of it,

we know exactly what that means...some don't wanna hear it though...some eyes and ears have been closed to the truth...by God Himself (to protect them from making a horrible choice) if God closes someones eyes and ears, then they are still innocent to an extent...

all those with their eyes and ears closed to the real truths of God's Word, will ahve to go through the Millennium....God does this out of love...to protect His children, and teach them right from wrong. All but the elect shall have their eyes and ears closed...

compare with the parables of Christ....He spoke parables to the general people, so that they would not all understand....it was part of the plan......

and then He would explain them in detail to His disciples.

The whole truth is not for everyone....not yet anyway...byt again, there is the 1000 years...of learning...
Glad you know what is meant will rule with iron fist. Shows me you go to other mens sources to get some idea what it may mean; as clearly God does not say anyhwere in the bible, if little what it means when Jesus says will rule with iron fist. You have no clue, so either you are readng outside sources (others ideas) or u think you know exactly what Jesus meant, which we don't know, as it's not written.

it is written, and Christ said "I have fortold you ALL things"

as at the end of the 1000 years, satan is released, decieves the nations and they all go to the beautiful city to war against, and God wipes em out.

The ones that he deceives are the Christians and the others, who were fooled by him (Satan) the first time....
(Satan play acting Jesus, fooling all the non-studied week Christians that believe whatever is preached instead of checking it out for themselves...

the elect and dead in Christ teach and reign over them for that 1000 years....under Christ of course.

It says decieves the nations, not the Christians, so tho in the end times;

who do you think Christians are? They are nations.

Christians are who the scattered tribes became.

and who scattered I am not clear at the end of the 1000 years other than what's shown above. but all christians are saved, and never lose their salvation, no matter how much you write they can, except for one instance, it may be that those in tribulation time who do not persevere or such, may lose their salvation, that is why i keep saying they are under a difffent dispensation.

what if those in the trib are the same as are here today?

After that comes the judgement.

and the second resurrection .... or the second death, the death of the soul in the lake of Fire.

For believers is works only judgement for loss or gain of reward only in heaven.

I don't know what you mean to say here. Language barrier...although you communicate very well.

Sin all forgiven when came to Christ..salvation secure at same time, as Holy Spirit indwells when one comes to Christ, and is a seal, mark, guaranteeing redemption (salvation.) No doubt about it.

Well I partly agree.

A believer in Christ will be saved, no doubt....but when is the big point. Belief in Christ does not guarantee you salvation in this flesh body.....but there is the Millennium, the real time of teaching, and it is my understanding that the believers, even those that got fooled by antiChrist, shall be saved by the end of the 1000 years...

...but for now, no. Many will have to go through the cleansing of the Trib and Millennium.

All but the small percentage of elect, who by the way are the only ones sealed with God's mark. Just because you are a Christian does not mean that you automatically get a pass from the trib and that you do not have to endure the Millennium....that privilege is only for the elect, who were chosen BEFORE this age, and as such, their reward is not based on anything that they have done in this life....but what they did in the life before the flesh, before the foundations of the world...

oh i see, you think us the die, are gonna have to go thru the trib and be here for the 1000 year reign. not... would love ot be in the 1000 year reign but no, we won' tbe there.

No you do not see what I meant. I mean to say that those of us who are alive at Christ's return, are here through the Millennium...including ALL Christians...as no Christians are raptured away early.

For non believers the judgement is done and they are cast to hell, having never recieved forgiveness for sins, and same likewise as they never believed in Christ hence never recieved forgiveness.

If you can try not to attack me with your posts I'm willing to continue to post.

I am not attacking, just disagreeing....not laughing or poking fun at you...just my opinion vs yours.

I believe in the gathering to Christ, just not when you do. I believe that there is not a pre trib rapture, and the very thought of one is weak and lazy minded. I think that it dishonours God when people teach that we shall fly away before the trib that is to come upon the whole world.

[zeke37]

i am not weak or lazy minded, so i can say of you that you are weak and lazy minded to believe otherwise.
There is an incredible amount of proof about the timing of the return of Christ, and it is certainly not anytime before the 7th trump (Rev14), so that is when the gathering is to be....not before as you teach. God is against those who teach His children to fly to save their souls. Ez13... and this about false female preachers.....hmmm. Combine false doctrine, flying and false female prophets.... Margret MacDonald ring any bells?

we all sin, and that is what repentance is for....ask for forgiveness and we shall receive it....even 70x7 times a day...
what if you sin, and before you have the chance to ask forgieness, you trip and die...ugh..oh brother, why put such yokes on people..salvatin is free and Christ is the one who did all the work to give it to us...above is another works related salvation belief,

IMO, you must answer for any unrepented sin...

The point that I am making is that...

it is not all said and done for believers in this flesh life.
it's finished, we're saved..nothing can change that..actually when we're in heaven it's all done, but nothing can remove the Holy Spiritu which is in us, nevre gets removed, nor can one remove themself, they are sealed..all misunderstandings of the grace of Christ, and salvation which only comes thru him and nothing we ever ever do or don't do, except believe, and then we follow him, but all misunderstandings and misapplications comes from those who fail to recognize certain books and/or scritpures are regards differnt dispensatoins..this is why there is so much confusoin and theology and why so many make rules and hoops and such, when none actually exist, they are just not realizing what is written for those under one dispenstion versus another..

well mainly thats where it comes from,
There is the Millennium as you well know, and in that time, is when most of Christianity shall come to a real true belief....not before...
My walk with God and knowledge of God will always grow, but my belief is real as is many christians belief real, and is true because Christ is true. will never change, only get better learning more as we grow, and then in heaven we will forever be getting to know God more, we will have all eternity, for we wil be forever learning about his infinite love, and wisdom and knowledge, etc.
so, while I am not saying that Christians are not saved by their belief....(it is not JUST their belief) but I am saying that there is a time for all to be accepted by God...
All are accepted by God when we come to Christ, and it is only thru belief in Christ, nothing more.
for most alive today...that time is not going to be before the trib, as you think but rather after.

only the 144,000 will overcome in the flesh......all other Christians shall not overcome in the flesh. They shall need to be refined and taught the truth for the 1000 years....and then if they overcome Satan's release...they shall live forever...if not, they shall be destroyed...soul and all in the lake of Fire.
no, sorry christians are sealed, and the overcomers speaks to the those in the tribulation if i recall right, the other dispensatin which will be...but also we are overcomers now in our walk with christ..

You do not recall right. The elect are sealed, 144,000....not all Christians..as Satan pretends to be Jesus and fools the ones that are not sealed. Do you know what the Seals are and what they represent? Are you Sealed?

The reason I ask such is it appears to me you are saying such is how people get saved, tho I may have misunderstood.

The Word defines how one is saved...

A deep study revealed to me how in this dispensation, only a handful will overcome (elect)....and the rest shall have to learn the truth, and then be tested again....and judged by God. The rest as I said, are composed of Christians...and others...

So, please do answer each of those, I'd like to know.

I have.

I don't know who the MANY you refer to as agree to all you post. MANY disagree as well
.
I'm sure that they do, free will and all (to most) but I don't know what you are referring to....when you say "many agree or disagree???


wow, sys failed, but i copied before hitting send..butlost my last part..

think we're done here, as what we're talking about does't matter; you believe what you believe i believe what i believe, you claim due to your study; i know due to my study,

No problem


i hope someday you will not have to live in fear of constnt beleief that you have to do Christs completed work to gain salvation n the end.

I do not live in fear, infact it is the opposite. The Sealed information brings faith, not fear. Knowing what is going to happen before it does brings the opposite of fear.


there is one way only, thru belief in christ, and nothing more. and nothng we do afterwards ever loses our salvation. this may be dif in trib time,

it is almost trib time now, and I am saying that there is a time for Salvation in this flesh age, and there is a time of refining in the Millennium

And then a final test...and the Judgement of God.

So, just believing in, or saying that you beliueve in may not be enough...We must follow Him...and many do not....even if they claim to....but they are still Christians...just not elect...


prob is famous pastors and such which many follow, started preaching about easy believism..(just like the pre trib rapture teachings...nothing is easier than thinking that you will not be here to work for God, against the antiChrist...sinse you are not going to be here, that would be the easiest thing ever...) after this, many like you began thnking wow, yea, that doesn't seem right...believe in christ alone..
one must do thus and thus and thus etc.ad infinitum.

according to the Bible, we are to do certain things to further the plan of God...there are warnings...and commands to follow in the end times, and you want to fly away???


so i can tell tho you accuse me of it, that you are highly affected by more than the bible.

bible is clear salvation is by faith in christ. alone.
we never lose our salvation

if He never knew you as you say, then you do not have that Salvation yet....what if you are one that thinnks they are Christian but are not Christian?

verses and book which speak to differnt dispensations is where the confusion lies.

so anyway, im done, will read your reply but am done.

thanks
tapero

and thanks back at you.

Many people are not going to overcome in the flesh age...but it will take the Millennium to overcome. Just saying you are Christian is not good enough...you must be chosen and follow the Lord....to overcome in this age...and that is ONLY for the 144000 elect...the others will have to wait to be refined as precious metals are refined....in the Millennium.

in His service
c

[tapero]

[QUOTE=tapero]
bible is clear salvation is by faith in christ. alone.
we never lose our salvation


if He never knew you as you say, then you do not have that Salvation yet....what if you are one that thinnks they are Christian but are not Christian?


What if you are? If you believe such as you do that your own efforts save you, your faith may not be in Christ, but in yourself.
.

[stranger]

Originally Posted by tapero
bible is clear salvation is by faith in christ. alone.
we never lose our salvation


If one believed Christ then one would do what he said, accept him as Lord, but every sinner is breaking Jesus' command to love, for sin is simply breaking the command to love given by Jesus...

Thus sinners are free to SAY they believe in Jesus and are saved, but it ain't so according to Jesus, he says himself that ,at his return , just calling him Lord will not cut any ice, that he NEVER KNEW any sinner :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You may think that the new covenant can save a sinners at Jesus' retur, but it does not say any such thing, [Heb 8:8-12] first off it is only with the House of Judah and the House of Israel , not with just anyone, and it offers them forgiveness of past sin , it is not a licence to remain a sinner and skip baptsim of fire, the trial of saints which perfects love...

But one does not even begin the pecious trial of faith until after baptism of the spirit leads one to know all truth.... John 16:13... thus one does not even begin one's salvation until one knows all truth of God... clearly almost all men die without doing so, only one in a million [literally] are saints in THIS life] who are raptured away at Jesus' return... that leaves a whole lot of confused decieved christians and Jews alike , gnashing their teeth at God because they could not be bothered to check out his contract in scripture...

[IisJustMe]

it is obviously not true then that all men are baptised of the spirit, but rather that very few indeed are, and so there are indeed very few saints in this world....You make statements such as this, that "it is clear ..." or "obvious" when it appears to be more your conclusion than being obvious to anyone.

What is clear from the biblical perspective is that Jesus died for the sins of the world, and those who believe in that sacrificial death on their behalf are indeed saved, and therefore the "saints" of this world, and that is more than just a few, unlike your erroneous conclusion here:Jesus actually tells us how many saints there are , just 144,000 , listed in Rev 7:3-8 as descendants of the sons of Jacob by name This is a gross misinterpretation of end-times prophecy, as the 144 thousand spoken of in your reference passage are the Jewish evangelists who will go out