TWO Houses within Israel, the Jews are only one of them!

[rwc109]

Dear Followers of Christ,

UNDERSTANDING ABOUT THE TWO HOUSES OF ISRAEL :-

So what are the two houses and why is it important to understand?

IT WAS SOLOMON'S KINGDOM THAT WAS DIVIDED INTO TWO SEPARATED HOUSES ...
the Northern Kingdom and Southern Kingdom.
The Northern Kingdom was called the House of Israel. This
Northern Kingdom is a prophetic type of the then future
Christianity mirrored in the prodigal son and referred to as the WILD olive tree!
The Southern Kingdom was called the House of Judah.
This Southern Kingdom is a prophetic type of the then future Judaism, the original olive tree that was unproductive with the old covenant, mirrored in the elder son.

The Northern Kingdom was
called the following names
in the Bible :-

The house of Israel -(I Kings 12:21, Jeremiah 31:31)

The house of Joseph -(I Kings 11:28)

Samaria - (Hosea 7:1, 8:5-6, 13:16)

Ephraim -(Hosea 4:17, 5:3, 7:1)
(Ephraim menas "double fruit.")

Lo-Ammi - (Hosea 1:9)

THE NORTHERN KINGDOM
IS TAKEN CAPTIVE TO ASSYRIA by the king
of Assyria (II Kings 17:7-23). In the fullness
of time, they lost their identity as the house of Israel and became assimilated into all
the nations of the world.

Meanwhile the SOUTHERN KINGDOM
IS TAKEN CAPTIVE TO BABYLON !
- this House of Judah that becomes the Jews
was initially taken captive by the Babylonians.
The Elohim[God} of Israel declared through the
prophet Jeremiah that the duration of the
Babylonian captivity was to
last for 70 years (Jeremiah 25:1-11). Following
the 70 years of Babylonian captivity, a remnant of people from the Southern Kingdom (house of Judah) returned to the land of Israel during the days of Ezra and Nehemiah.


the BIBLE PROMISES the uniting Of BOTH Houses into one fold!

Jermiah 31:31-33 -
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the
Yahweh, that I will make a
new covenant with the house of Israel, and with
the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I
made with their fathers
in the day that I took them by the hand to bring
them out of the land
of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although
I was an husband unto
them, saith the Yahweh:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I
will make with the
house of Israel; After those days, saith the
Yahweh, I will put my law
in their inward parts, and write it in their
hearts; and will be their
Elohim, and they shall be my people.

Ezekiel 37:15-25 -

Eze 37:15 The word of the Yahweh came again unto
me, saying,
Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee
one stick, and write
upon it, For Judah, and for the children of
Israel his companions:
then take another stick, and write upon it, For
Joseph, the stick of
Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his
companions: Eze 37:17 And
join them one to another into one stick; and they
shall become one in
thine hand. Eze 37:18 And when the children of
thy people shall speak
unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what
thou meanest by these?
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Sovereign
Yahweh; Behold, I
will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the
hand of Ephraim, and
the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put
them with him, even
with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick,
and they shall be
one in mine hand. Eze 37:20 And the sticks
whereon thou writest shall
be in thine hand before their eyes. Eze 37:21 And
say unto them, Thus
saith the Sovereign Yahweh; Behold, I will take
the children of Israel
from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and
will gather them on
every side, and bring them into their own land:
Eze 37:22 And I will
make them one nation in the land upon the
mountains of Israel; and one
king shall be king to them all: and they shall be
no more two nations,
neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms
any more at all. Eze
37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any
more with their idols,
nor with their detestable things, nor with any of
their
transgressions: but I will save them out of all
their dwellingplaces,
wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them:
so shall they be my
people, and I will be their Elohim. Eze 37:24 And
David my servant
shall be king over them; and they all shall have
one shepherd: they
shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my
statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I
have given unto
Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have
dwelt; and they shall
dwell therein, even they, and their children, and
their children's
children for ever: and my servant David shall be
their prince for
ever.

JESUS'S ,the Messiah's ,role in uniting both the
houses :-

Yehshua Messiah [Jesus Christ} came from the tribe of Judah of the House of Judah, the Southern Kingdom :-

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent
but unto the lost
sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Yahshua sent forth, and
commanded them, saying,
Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any
city of the
Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the
house of Israel.

Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that
which was lost.

Luk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth
together his friends and
neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me;
for I have found my
sheep which was lost.

Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and
to save that which
was lost.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not
of this fold: them
also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be
one fold, and one shepherd.

Mat 19:28 And Yahshua said unto them, Verily I
say unto you, That ye
which have followed me, in the regeneration when
the Son of man shall
sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit
upon twelve thrones,
judging the twelve tribes of Israel.(House of
Israel and house of
Judah)

---- Caiaphas' Prophecy :-

Joh 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that
also he should gather
together in one the children of Elohim that were
scattered abroad.

----Disciples asking about the restoration of Israel :-

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together,
they asked of him,
saying, Sovereign, wilt thou at this time restore
again the kingdom to
Israel? Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not
for you to know the
times or the seasons, which the Father hath put
in his own power.

---- James wrote for the 12 tribes ( House of Israel
and House of Judah) :-

Jam 1:1 James, a servant of Elohim and of the
Sovereign Yahshua
Messiah, to the twelve tribes which are scattered
abroad, greeting.

----John wrote for the 12 Tribes and 12 Apostles :-

Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had
twelve gates, and at
the gates twelve angels, and names written
thereon, which are the
names of the twelve tribes of the children of
Israel:

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve
foundations, and in them
the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

---- The NEW COVENANT Promise is ONLY for the TWO HOUSES [and anyone grafted in to them as STRANGERS!] :-

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the
Yahweh, that I will make a
new covenant with the house of Israel, and with
the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I
made with their fathers
in the day that I took them by the hand to bring
them out of the land
of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although
I was an husband unto
them, saith the Yahweh:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I
will make with the
house of Israel; After those days, saith the
Yahweh, I will put my law
in their inward parts, and write it in their
hearts; and will be their
Elohim, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man
his neighbour, and
every man his brother, saying, Know the Yahweh:
for they shall all
know me, from the least of them unto the greatest
of them, saith the
Yahweh: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I
will remember their
sin no more.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith,
Behold, the days come,
saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant
with the house of
Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made
with their fathers
in the day when I took them by the hand to lead
them out of the land
of Egypt; because they continued not in my
covenant, and I regarded
them not, saith the Sovereign.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will
make with the house of
Israel after those days, saith the Sovereign; I
will put my laws into
their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I
will be to them a
Elohim, and they shall be to me a people:

---- Christianity's MISTAKEN teaching.

So called 'Christianity' has a MISTAKEN teaching that Israelites are ONLY the JEWS !!... saying mistakenly that all the remaining people are Gentiles... heathen to Israel!... but the BIBLR shows quite clearly that this is NOT SO.

Ephramites had a Golden Calf system of
worship from the beginning. Jeroboam introduced
this pagan worship in his mission [if you read in 1. Kings 11] .... They don't have Torah ... So also with the so-called Christians for them there is no Law!

... Sabbath breaking ........Christians also do
the same!!

... Man-made festivals .......Christians also
have the same!!
traditions of men

----Anna the prophetess [from the tribe of Asher]
Luk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess,
the daughter of
Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great
age, and had lived
with an husband seven years from her virginity;
She was of the House
og Israel.

----Simeon's declaration about the Gentiles :-
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how Elohim at the
first did visit the
Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his
name. Act 15:15 And to
this agree the words of the prophets; as it is
written, Act 15:16
After this I will return, and will build again
the tabernacle of
David, which is fallen down; and I will build
again the ruins thereof,
and I will set it up: Act 15:17 That the residue
of men might seek
after the Sovereign, and all the Gentiles, upon
whom my name is
called, saith the Sovereign, who doeth all these
things. Act 15:18
Known unto Elohim are all his works from the
beginning of the world.
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we
trouble not them, which
from among the Gentiles are turned to Elohim:

----In Abraham's promise all the Nations
Abraham is not a father only to the nation of
Israel, but he is a
father to MANY nations!!! ... Yahweh blessed him in
such a way. Gen 17:5-9...

He became the father of many nations. So all the
twelve [later 14 with Ephraim and Manasseh adopted by their grandfather as SONS] tribes of Israel
were scattered abroad the world.... now THIS is the
time of restoring them into one fold!!
So there is no question of caste, creed, religion, or
what ever the difference it may be.
In Yehshua Messiah [Jesus Christ] the FEW are born
into a ONE new KINDRED nation [and the MANY will be GRAFTED IN] .... mankind united again BY ... HIS chosen fold.

If one is REALLY a follower of JESUS, one is an Israelite!.. the member of the NEW COVENANT kingdom of LOVE.
When we place our faith in Yehshua [JESUS} we
are grafted into the natural Olive tree as apostle Paul says in Romans 11.... This olive tree represents Messianic Israel.

If we belong to Messiah we ARE of Abraham's seed of offspring heirs according to promise. (Gala 3:29 cp Genesis 13:14-16; 17:5-9)
We are the adopted [or true!] children to Abraham! ...

".who are Israelites, to whom belongs the
adoption as sons, and the
glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the
Law, and the temple
service and the promises." (Romans 9:4)

----Disciples asked about the restoration of the
kingdom of Israel in Acts
1:6-8 The family of the Elohim of Israel (
Christianity and Judaism )
lives together at the time of His gathering.

Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one
stick; and they shall
become one in thine hand.

THUS to understand Israel, we must realize that the
Father has been dealing with TWO Houses within HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE, Israel.... Judah and Ephraim as-it-were [for these tribes dominated the two Houses]-
and He now wants us to become one stick in His hand. (see Ezek 37:15-28).

[simchat_torah]

ugh.

more replacement nonsense.

[Pray4Isrel]

RWC109, Would you like to emphasize a point? This forum is not open for debate to Non-Messianics. Non-Messianics may post questions but they may not debate the Messianic Forum members.

Please ask your question or I will have to close the thread.

Thank You.

[Sabian]

It seems to me the point is Two sticks, Am I correct?
YAHUDAH ( judah)and Ephraim.
Is this what you want to talk about?
The plan of YHWH is to reunite these two sticks,
into one kingdom of ISRAEL.

So who is EPHRAIM?
according to Eze 37:16
the stick of Ephraim is the same as the stick of Joseph.
We also see that, as the people of YAH, we are in error
if we call ourselves Gentiles.
We are in fact the house of IsraEL

We are to come togeather as one spiritual House!
We are Children Of YAH.

Where do the people that call themselves YAHUDAH
and are not come into play?

[yod]

whack....

totally whack.

[Domi_Adsum_05]

Everybody hates the Jews, but suddenly everyone wants to claim to be the REAL Jews.
So in reality the entire world except for the Jews are Jews?
Or the whole world is Jewish?
Or only Christians are Jews? :scratch:

Oy, I get all these theories so mixed up. :D

[SonWorshipper]

Author of confusion. :(

[rwc109]

Dear Pray4Isrel,
I am circumcised and I believe in the Messiah, is that not sufficient qualification to use this thread?

can I answer peoples questions here or not?

[simchat_torah]

pretty much every male in today's American society is circumcised. That doesn't mean much to be honest.

[Godzman]

I don't quite understand, we all can get salvation it was paid in full on calvary for the Israelites and the gentiles

[simchat_torah]

certainly. Unfortunately, that doesn't change the gentiles into jews. Nor does it change jews into gentiles.

[Godzman]

certainly. Unfortunately, that doesn't change the gentiles into jews. Nor does it change jews into gentiles.
slavation is first for the jews then the gentiles, that is in the bible.

the Jews are still God's chosen people, the church is part of the new covenant because of the grace of God

[yod]

I am circumcised and I believe in the Messiah, is that not sufficient qualification to use this thread?

can I answer peoples questions here or not?


I think you already did....

[Sabian]

Are Muslims Concidered Gentile To you?
Do you concider yourself Gentile?
What is a clear understanding of what a gentile is?
Would a worshipper of Zues be concidered a gentile?

1) of or pertaining to any people not Jewish.
( or not YAHUDAH)
2)Christian, as distinguished from Jewish.
( YAHUDAH)
3) neither Mormon nor Jewish.
4) heathen or pagan.
5)Pertaining to the tribe , clan people, nation .
6)A person who is not Jewish


Gentilism : the quality of being a gentile, heathenism paganism.

Being a gentile seems to point to being a heathen, or pagan.
One who does not Praise YAH.

I would say definition # 2 would be from the catholic church.

So can I ask every bodies definition of Gentile?
And are you a Gentile?
Are we called to be Gentiles?
Are we to unite under one name?
Become one family?
Would that name be Jew or Gentile?
What is the Definition of Jew to you?
Do you see the seperation here?
Where do Muslims Fit in, Are they gentile?
They are not Jewish.
How about people that believe the evil one is their Father? Are they concidered Gentile?

[Sabian]

slavation is first for the jews then the gentiles, that is in the bible.

the Jews are still God's chosen people, the church is part of the new covenant because of the grace of God
Who are the Jews that say they are Jews and are not?
YAHUDIM
What is a true JEW?
Are we to be a Fleshly Jew ,or a spiritual YAHUDAH?

If you do not believe in YAHSHUA as the WORD of YAH made Flesh, can you be a true YAHUDAH?

Are we supposed to look at the fleshly Definition of Jew?
What is the spiritual Definition of YAHUDAH?

[yod]

Who are the Jews that say they are Jews and are not?
YAHUDIM
this is assuming quite a lot. The Bible doesn't uphold your assumption.


What is a true JEW?
those JEWS who have received their Messiah. Many Gentiles have been joined to them and made joint heirs to their covenants and promises....but have not BECOME them.




Are we to be a Fleshly Jew ,or a spiritual YAHUDAH?
Are you speaking to gentiles? If so, the answer is neither.




If you do not believe in YAHSHUA as the WORD of YAH made Flesh, can you be a true YAHUDAH?

no. See answer above.



Are we supposed to look at the fleshly Definition of Jew?
What is the spiritual Definition of YAHUDAH?

The literal and spiritual definition is the same. Why make it so complicated when it is simple?

[Pray4Isrel]

Dear Pray4Isrel,
I am circumcised and I believe in the Messiah, is that not sufficient qualification to use this thread?

can I answer peoples questions here or not?http://www.christianforums.com/t34460
As long as you abide by the above rules.
If you are not a Messianic, you are only allowed to ask questions, not debate.
Once again, the above link should answer your questions.

[Sabian]

No I would say the Fleshly Definition of Jew is a Jew by blood.

Paul was not a YAHUDAH by blood. But Paul was a YAHUDAH.

I see you answered none of the qustions about gentiles.



I'm glad to see You understand that a True YAHUDAH believes in YAHSHUA.

Why make it so complicated when it is simple?

because of romans 2:29

But a YAHudite is he who is so inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart in spirit,
not literally, whose praise is not from men but from ELOHIM

From the Scriptures ( ISR) translation.

[Sabian]

1 Thess 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Yahweh knows each persons heart, and they will be judged individually. John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[Sabian]

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Yahshua Messiah.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Just wanted to add someother scripture to look at

[Sabian]

1.The Hebrew word "goy goy" is used throughout the OT to depict the pagan nations.
2.The Greek word "Hellen" is used to deptict a Grecian.
3.The Greek word "ethnikos" is used to depict a heathen man.
4.The Greek word "ethnos" is used to depict a heathen nation.



G1672
Ἕλλην
Hellēn
hel'-lane
From G1671; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek speaking person, especially a non-Jew: - Gentile, Greek.

H1471
גּי גּוי
gôy gôy
go'ee, go'-ee
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

G1482
ἐθνικός
ethnikos
eth-nee-kos'
From G1484; national (“ethnic”), that is, (specifically) a Gentile: - heathen (man). G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

[simchat_torah]

"there is neither Jew nor Greek"...

What does this mean?
Does this mean that there are literally no Jews or Greeks anymore?
He also goes on to write that there is neither male nor female, slave or free, etc.

If there's one thing that I know that I know that I know... it's that there's a difference between male and female.

Essentially the author is stating that when we stand before HaShem our racial differences mean nothing... however, in this life, we are male and female, Jew and Greek... and we must abide by those distinctions.

Otherwise, you end up practicing homosexuality, replacement theology, etc.

[Pray4Isrel]

If there is no such thing as Jew or Greek, than why does Paul urge us to be "All things to all people", "To the Jew, I became as a Jew to win the Jews, to the Gentiles I became as a Gentile to win the Gentiles, to the weak I became weak, etc."

[yod]

Why make it so complicated when it is simple?

because of romans 2:29

But a YAHudite is he who is so inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart in spirit,
not literally, whose praise is not from men but from ELOHIM

this is a very bad interpretation because it ignores the context. The VERY NEXT 3 sentences say this:



Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.
3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?



Which gentiles were given circumcision? Which gentiles were entrusted with the oracles of God?

Rav Shaul is obviously making a comparison between jews who believe in Yeshua and those who don't. This has nothing to do with gentiles becoming "spiritual jews". That strange concept can not be found in the Bible anywhere. There is one mention in the book of Galatians of gentiles being ADDED to the "Israel of God" but that is not the same as BECOMING the Israel of God.

If you take an overview of the book of Romans, you will find that it's purpose for being written was because of a schism developing between the jews and gentiles in the congregation at Rome.

The jews were trusting in their heritage and the gentiles were saying that the destruction of Israel was proof that God was finished with them. Isn't it interesting that this problem remained in Rome even after this book is written which tells the gentiles not be arrogant against the jews "lest they also be cut off" ?

[yod]

"there is neither Jew nor Greek"...

What does this mean?
It means that He is not a respector of our "person" We are all equal in regard to race or sex or financial standing.....or any other human measurement.

We are all equal in our status of preference in His sight. This does not mean we have all been chosen for the same role.

[simchat_torah]

Yod, that was an excellent post. Very enlightening indeed.

I would also like to point out something that is overlooked by so many in Romans 2:28-29

The author (implies in some translations, and states outright in others) that one is not a jew ONLY on the outward (or flesh) but ALSO in the inside (heart). He is speaking of the spiritual jews who have BOTH circumcision of the heart and of the flesh.

It's a difficult sentance structure to follow, but the context of those two verses puts it into perspective so clearly... thank you for pointing that out Yod.

-yafet.

[simchat_torah]

oh, and in regard to your last post.... hehe... it's just a reiteration of what I said before. I was asking it rhetorically.



;)

[Sabian]

Greek is not the same as gentile.
That is what part of my qustion is about.
Or are you saying that you believe the definition or gentile is greek?
Un less you are speaking of this word which applies to heathen or pagan Greeks.
G1672
Ἕλλην
Hellēn
hel'-lane
From G1671; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek speaking person, especially a non-Jew: - Gentile, Greek.

I will have to research the verses that contain Hellen.

[rwc109]

The biblical menaing of 'Gentile', 'heathen' , 'pagan' [also rather poorly translated as 'the nations']...

is actually quite simply those outside the people of God and all their ancestors.

Thus if we consider the modern position, all the ancestors and much of Israel are already dead.... but what remains is actually crucial to redemption of the creation.

since there is much confusion about it, it is as well to be EXPLICIT

the NATION of Israel became DIVIDED into two kingdoms in the OT history , TWO Houses. the smaller House of Judah [known as the 'Jews'] and the larger [non-Jewish therefore] House of Israel...

Now BOTH Houses were scattered at different times by God, exiled from their promised land by God FOR SINNING...

BUT the Jews were allowed to keep a vestige of their religion [hence we have apostate Judaism as a religion even today] but God gave up the House of Israel to worshipping other Gods amd they are still scattered amongst Gentile, pagan, heathen nations TODAY!

Thus the House of Israel, the larger part of the NATION of Israel became gentles, LOST their identity as being of Israel and LOST their worship of God... this is why Jesus Chrsit sya that God sent him ONLY to the LOST sheep of the House of Israel [in fulfillment of the ancient prophets' prophecies [see my post on 'the scattering of Israel' or read e.g. Ezekiel chapter 34]

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, [i]I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

------Thus we find that Jesus addresses the House of Judah directly in his ministry

The apostollic church is almost completely Jewish...

And then he sends them out [the so-called great commission] to reacg their brothers amogst ALL nations, the LOST gentile House of Israel.

Quite a simple definition, but with a twist in the tail!

[Sabian]

I had to research the verses that contain (Hellen)


Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile( hellen);
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile ( hellen):
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with YHWH.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles (Hellen), that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Joh 7:35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles(Hellen), and teach the Gentiles (Hellen)?

1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles( Hellen), nor to the church of God:
1Co 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.


1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles (Hellen), whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

All of this reinforces My belief that the only thing I should call
myself is a Child of YAH.

But it seems that to be called YAHUDAH (One who Praises YAH)
is really not far from The meaning (Child of YAH).
But it also seems that Gentile does not even come close to
meaning anything about YAH.

;35

Seems to me that to be a True YAHUDAH is to be a true IsraELite.
YAHUDAH was part of IsraEl.But I think that was the problem.
There were twelve seperate parts to IsraEL.
They never became one.
They remained seperate ,then seperated, or were seperated.
Their diffrences Kept them from becoming one HOUSE of EL.
Looking at the Religions today and all their diffrent names,
and beliefs. We could never become one family.
How? Gen 11:4
Untill or unless, we all realize the only name of Salvation and
understand ,what that means.

If I were to say something like (Oh he's Catholic)
I my mind I have seperated this Man from me.
Instantly he became Not my Brother ,
but in my heart became Catholic.
I should have looked at this man as a child of YAH.
Maybe a lost Child of YAH but still a Child of YAH.

But really I think the Best thing to call ourselves is still
Child of YAH. It just seems that saying Child of YAH
Leaves no room for seperation.
We are all one FAMILY.
And really only have one Enemy.

Gen 11:4 is what really gave me this understanding.
Almost everything I study brings me back there like a magnet.
Creating a name for yourself is seperation.

Are we to unite under one name? YES...ISRAELITE
(My answer would be YAH.)
But I see why you chose ISAELITE.
HE will rule as EL

Yaaqob # 3290 Heel catcher from 6117
aqab to cut or swell up.
6119 to seize by the heel,
to circumvent as if tripping up the heels.

Interesting that the meaning of YAAQOB is Heel Catcher.
Before IsraEL Became IsraEL

Question have we become IsraEL yet?
Or are we still YAAQOB?

I can't help but think of

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Mt.15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
18 No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father. 19 There arose a division again among the Jews because of these words. 20 And many of them said, He hath a demon, and is mad; why hear ye him? 21 Others said, These are not the sayings of one possessed with a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?

John 10:24 The Jews therefore came round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou hold us in suspense? If thou art the Messiah, tell us plainly. 25 Yahshua answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Col 1:27 to whom Elohim was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Messiah in you, the hope of glory: 28 whom we proclaim, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Messiah.

Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Messiah through the evangel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of Elohim given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Who are those sheep? Those Israelites that were "lost" because YHWH divorced them and sent them into the Gentile nations. So these "Lost" Israelites were called Gentiles because there had been hundreds of years since there ancestors had the Torah and they were brought up as Gentiles/Pagans/Heathens.

Are any of us not lost?

[simchat_torah]

BUT the Jews were allowed to keep a vestige of their religion [hence we have apostate Judaism as a religion even today]


Don't you think that statement is rather prideful? Especially considering that you provided absolutely no proof?

-Yafet.

[koilias]

I'm a gentile God-fearer. I don't care if I have a drop of Jewish blood in me, I'm happy to eat from the scraps. I don't belong at the table, but because of God's rav-Hesed I partake of the malchut haShamayim.

Why does the Church need the distinction between Jew and gentile? Because, unlike the gentile God-fearers, the Jews are charged with the task of "guarding" the Torah. God has blessed the Church with Jewish brethren, for they are guardians of haDerekh, the Way. The early Jewish Christians called themselves the "guardians of the Way": "Shomrim haDerekh" (I Kings 8:25, it was shortened to "haDerekh", "the Way"). Yeshua called them that because because he charged them to observe Torah, not with words but by practicing what they preach, thus "keeping" (hebrew "guarding") the Torah. Most of Yeshua's parables are about the delineating the difference between just "hearing" the word, as opposed to "hearing AND DOING" the word. "Put your actions where your mouth is" was Yeshua's basic message.

The Pharisees started calling the Shomrim "Shomronim" ("Samaritans", i.e. "heretics"), insulting them in a school-yard fashion (see John 8). Therefore, the name "Shomrim" quickly went out of vogue in the Jewish Church. So they chose to call themselves by a semantic equivalent, "Notzarim", in lieu of Isaiah 27, where God considers Himself the "notzar", the guardian/caretaker of the vineyard, which represents Israel. Very quickly the connection to Natzeret (Nazareth) was made, which shares the same Hebrew root as "notzar". Thus, to this day, the modern Hebrew name for Christians is "Notzrim". It doesn't mean "Nazareans" but "the caretakers" (the guardians of the vineyard).

May haShem preserve the Caretakers of the Vineyard!

[simchat_torah]

I'm a gentile God-fearer. I don't care if I have a drop of Jewish blood in me, I'm happy to eat from the scraps. I don't belong at the table, but because of God's rav-Hesed I partake of the malchut haShamayim.



It's always refreshing to see such honesty. However, keep in mind, there is a special blessing and a place within the temple for those who join themselves to Israel.

May the L-rd Bless you and keep you!

shalom,
-Yafet.

[simchat_torah]

ps. you might want to go back and change your text to black... gray on gray is invisible. :)

[koilias]

Thanks for the tip. I couldn't figure out what was wrong!...Thought I'd been booted out of the forum.:cry:

[rwc109]

[/font]

Don't you think that statement is rather prideful? Especially considering that you provided absolutely no proof?

-Yafet.
I have no pride in myself whatever, the conclusion comes from God in scripture through prayer in yearning to him and neditation in His law... I am in awe and somewhat irrational fear of God and totally overwhelmed by His scripture and the intricate tepetry of the unfolding of His plan... thus I expound it in obedience and praise of God, not for myself

Gos Loves us all and has three discernable distinct roles in mankind which inevitably and according to prophacy cause division leading up to the coflict of so-called Armageddon... this does not change that to God every singlw being is invaluable and unique and ESSENTIAL to His plan despite that there are conflicting roles for different groups of man.

Thus once we are given to understand God's plan because we have completed our part in t main purpose of man for God, we can freely Love all men ,no matter if they should persecute us or even take our lives

Ths there is no pride but only Love for all in this person.

As to the evidence for my statement it has been reviewed on other concurrent threads, but I will summarise it here ...

Jesus showed in keeping Passover the day before the jewish hierarchy that thereligion was already scripturally aposttate by the time of Christ, he also criticised the petty rules that laid heavy burdens on people whilst the major aspect of ensuring that everyone was cared for and LOVED WAS BEING OVER-LOOKED ... THIS IS APOSTASY JUST AS THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES ARE APOSTATE from Love IN NOT CARING FOR THE 24,000 LITTLE CHILDREN, LOVED BY GOD, WHO ARE ALLOWED TO DIE EACH DAY UPON THIS EARTH.

I guess that one could also point to the fact that it was Judaism that falsely ruled Jesus guilty of blasphemy and insisted that he die [and I guess that most Jews still don't recognise their own Messiah]

I only cite the apostasy as an observation, not as a criticism, I accept the pre-ordination, pre-destination of all things according to God's plan declared from the very beginning, there is nothing anyone can do [or should want to do] aboout apostasy in Judaism or Christendom since it leads to the snaring od Satan and the unrighteous and thus to the return of Christ and redempton...

[simchat_torah]

I guess that one could also point to the fact that it was Judaism that falsely ruled Jesus guilty of blasphemy and insisted that he die [and I guess that most Jews still don't recognise their own Messiah]

It is this exact same type of antisemetic thought that brought about the Holocaust.

Either Y'shua died because of your sin, or he died because of the Jews.

Which is it? If he died because of the Jews then you have no salvation.

*sighs*


BUT the Jews were allowed to keep a vestige of their religion [hence we have apostate Judaism as a religion even today]

You still haven't provided any proof for this statement. What we do see however, is that the first century believers continued to go to synagouge, worship alongside of the Jews, and even commanded other believers to do so.

[simchat_torah]

LOVED WAS BEING OVER-LOOKED ... THIS IS APOSTASY JUST AS THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES ARE APOSTATE from Love IN NOT CARING FOR THE 24,000 LITTLE CHILDREN, LOVED BY GOD, WHO ARE ALLOWED TO DIE EACH DAY UPON THIS EARTH.

I assume you are speaking of Abortion. My parents are a part of project Life. We, as a family, have picketed several abortion clinics. My father has been hancuffed.

My mother is a tion counselor who works for Crisis Pregnancy Center. She works with women helping them see the alternatives to abortion, such as adoption, etc. She also gives council to post-abortion mothers who's lives are in shatters after their experience.

Emotionally, physically, and biologically... abortion is one of the worst things a woman can do to her body, let alone the death of a baby.

I'm not sure where you were heading with that statement above, but in Judaism it is against Halacha for a woman to have an abortion... in otherwords, it is illegal from an Oral Torah standpoint.

shalom,
Yafet.

[rwc109]

I assume you are speaking of Abortion. My parents are a part of project Life. We, as a family, have picketed several abortion clinics. My father has been hancuffed.

My mother is a tion counselor who works for Crisis Pregnancy Center. She works with women helping them see the alternatives to abortion, such as adoption, etc. She also gives council to post-abortion mothers who's lives are in shatters after their experience.

Emotionally, physically, and biologically... abortion is one of the worst things a woman can do to her body, let alone the death of a baby.

I'm not sure where you were heading with that statement above, but in Judaism it is against Halacha for a woman to have an abortion... in otherwords, it is illegal from an Oral Torah standpoint.

shalom,
Yafet.
Well I have every deepest empathy with your views on abortion, but I don't actually have any figures on worldwide abortions , the 24,000 a day figure is just the number [mostly little kids] who starve miserably to death each day because not enouggh people care to stop this gruesome death toll... it seems to me that no-one can claim not to know and yet how can any religious organisation that claims any connection to the God of :Love stand back and not put a stop to it... care of the poor is a duty in almost all religions and central to Judaism and christianity , but it just is not happenng [thus we have hypocrisy and apostasy]

[rwc109]

"It is this exact same type of antisemetic thought that brought about the Holocaust.
Either Y'shua died because of your sin, or he died because of the Jews.
Which is it? If he died because of the Jews then you have no salvation. "

Once again I love all Jews, I am in no sense at all anti-semitic , My family has been working against anti-semitism for at east a thousand years including assisting in saving many from persecution in Europe by assisting their passage to England back in Norman times.... the responsibility for the geath of Jesus rests solely upon God's shoulders as he always had planned that it would ... the reason is that God created man and evil for his purpose and thus had to provide a way back from evil for the whole creation... thus we have Jesus Christ who will establish 144,000 of tribal Israel ,partly Jews, as the immortal priests ministering to the redemption of billions of mankind [Rev 7:1-10]

I love the whole creation and am in total awe of the sheer beauty of God's plan ... this makes it possible to Love everyone and even what everyone does in the understanding that everything works toward the final glorying of the WHOLE creation in the God of Israel, the God of Love.

*sighs*

[sojeru]

hi simchat
[quote
I'm not sure where you were heading with that statement above, but in Judaism it is against Halacha for a woman to have an abortion... in otherwords, it is illegal from an Oral Torah standpoint.
[/quote]
Messiah spoke on the same thing in Luqas, when he spoke to the bat yerushalayim, notice the play in the word:)
BAT, BET Yerushalayim Daughter/house, i know im only speaking in singular- but still.
He Orally told them, then it was written that abortion is a worse crime than the one being commited against him- or rather that his death is not something to mourn over- "mourn for yourselves because your children will be killed and they will say blessed are you for not allowing your child to be born"

:)

[simchat_torah]

intersting sojeru.


care of the poor is a duty in almost all religions and central to Judaism and christianity , but it just is not happenng [thus we have hypocrisy and apostasy]


I agree with you that not enough is being done. However, I would stretch to say that it is never enough, no matter how much is being done.

I would also go further and say that the Jews have established the majority of social movements in our history though they comprise one of the smallest majorities globally.

shalom,
-Yafet.

[yod]

the NATION of Israel became DIVIDED into two kingdoms in the OT history , TWO Houses. the smaller House of Judah [known as the 'Jews'] and the larger [non-Jewish therefore] House of Israel...


here is where you logic breaks down.

The term "jews" comes from the word Judeans. The "jews" can also be applied to mean all the sons of Jacob however and that is what makes them jewish! If someone is from any of those 12 tribes then they are jewish.

Just being dispersed did not turn the northern tribes into gentiles. Intermarriage and assimilation has certainly diluted them almost to the point of extinction but modern DNA sampling could find them if/when someone wants to take on such an ambitious project. There is a gene common to all the sons of Jacob/Israel that makes them the "Chosen People"

Who are those sheep? Those Israelites that were "lost" because YHWH divorced them and sent them into the Gentile nations.


Then why did Yeshua go to the land of Israel instead of going to Assyria to find them? I'm sorry but this is meshugenah.

[rwc109]

intersting sojeru.

[/font]

I agree with you that not enough is being done. However, I would stretch to say that it is never enough, no matter how much is being done.

I would also go further and say that the Jews have established the majority of social movements in our history though they comprise one of the smallest majorities globally.

shalom,
-Yafet.
It is as well to remember that the Jewsw are a minor fraction of Israel, but
you are right of course, and prophecy says that they [Israel, not just Jews] will rise to powerful positions in the nations to which they are scattered , but being the chosen people of the God of Love doesn't seem to have won Israelites any popularity to say the least! [and only at most a third of Israelites are Jews probably a far lesser fraction by this day ,psrtly due to the holocaust and partly because non-Jewish Israel was much larger to start with!

[rwc109]

the

here is where you logic breaks down.

The term "jews" comes from the word Judeans. The "jews" can also be applied to mean all the sons of Jacob however and that is what makes them jewish! If someone is from any of those 12 tribes then they are jewish.

Just being dispersed did not turn the northern tribes into gentiles. Intermarriage and assimilation has certainly diluted them almost to the point of extinction but modern DNA sampling could find them if/when someone wants to take on such an ambitious project. There is a gene common to all the sons of Jacob/Israel that makes them the "Chosen People"



Then why did Yeshua go to the land of Israel instead of going to Assyria to find them? I'm sorry but this is meshugenah.
the House of Judah did settle in Judea and the House of Israel further north and they were KEPT distibct because they DISAGREED about religion, thus the House of Judah is the Jews with very little admixture

Yes the House of Israel is currebtly being researched by geneticists, this makes no difference to the description by Kesus that they were "LOST" .... of course they were not lost to God, only to the Jewish Apostollic church...

Jesus did not go to Asstria because he also needed the remannat of the lesser house of Judah too and that was where he was, right in the middle of them, then he sent them out to reach the hidden lost 'gentile' House of Israel scattered amongst ALL NATIONS

[rwc109]

I would add that Rev 7:1-10 proves completely what I claim only a third of the 144,000 can be Jews, the rest are definitely genetically tribal Israel of the scattered lost genytile House of Israel and tehse two groups are decribed by Jesus Christ a being saved FIRST, firstfruits...

the a whole mass of people of all nations are saved after -ward in Rev 7:9-10

Thus Israel are the royal priesthood ministering in mass salvation of everyone else

[rwc109]

It seems to me the point is Two sticks, Am I correct?
YAHUDAH ( judah)and Ephraim.
Is this what you want to talk about?
The plan of YHWH is to reunite these two sticks,
into one kingdom of ISRAEL.

So who is EPHRAIM?
according to Eze 37:16
the stick of Ephraim is the same as the stick of Joseph.
We also see that, as the people of YAH, we are in error
if we call ourselves Gentiles.
We are in fact the house of IsraEL

We are to come togeather as one spiritual House!
We are Children Of YAH.

Where do the people that call themselves YAHUDAH
and are not come into play?
Exactly, only abut a third [if that] of the 144,000 of Revelation7:1-10 are Jews , the rest are the LOST, hidden 'gentile' House of Israel

Roger

[yod]

That is such a twisted version of what the Bible teaches that I don't know where to start....or if you could hear it.

There is no such thing as a non-jewish Israelite except by your private definition.

This is the basic flaw that makes this house of cards fall.

[rwc109]

That is such a twisted version of what the Bible teaches that I don't know where to start....or if you could hear it.

There is no such thing as a non-jewish Israelite except by your private definition.

This is the basic flaw that makes this house of cards fall.
Do you realise that Israel was divided, had two kings at the same time?

That the Southern Kingdom lived in and around Judea, the House of Judah, that became known as Jews

But the Northern Kingdom was actually larger, over twice the size and this was the non-Jewish tribes of Israel including half the Levites

These are true genetic Israelites, but they never were Jews, not ever.

Actually I just realised that it doesn't matter if you for whatecer reaso want to call the house of Israel 'Jews', they still lost their religion and became gentiles, so it makes no difference whether they were once Jews or not!

[Sabian]

Gen 49:10 The scepter7626 shall not3808 depart5493 from YAHUDAH,4480, 3063 nor a lawgiver2710 from between4480, 996 his feet,7272 until5704, 3588 Shiloh7886 come;935 and unto him shall the gathering3349 of the people5971 be.


Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testatment:
Gen 49:In this manliness and strength there slumbered the germs of the future development of strength in his tribe. YAHUDAH would put his enemies to flight, grasp them by the neck, and subdue them (Job_16:12, cf. Exo_23:27; Psa_18:41). Therefore his brethren would do homage to him: not merely the sons of his mother, who are mentioned in other places (Gen_27:29; Jdg_8:19), i.e., the tribes descended from Leah, but the sons of his father-all the tribes of YsraEL therefore; and this was really the case under David (2Sa_5:1-2, cf. 1Sa_18:6-7, and 1Sa_18:16). This princely power YAHUDAH acquired through his lion-like nature.

“The sceptre shall not depart from YAHUDAH, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, till Shiloh come and the willing obedience of the nations be to him.” The sceptre is the symbol of regal command, and in its earliest form it was a long staff, which the king held in his hand when speaking in public assemblies.

Isa 30:8 Now6258 go,935 write3789 it before854 them in5921 a table,3871 and note2710 it in5921 a book,5612 that it may be1961 for the time3117 to come314 forever5703 and ever:5704, 5769


Strong's 2710 ç÷÷ châqaq khaw-kak'
A primitive root; properly to hack, that is, engrave (Jdg_5:14, to be a scribe simply); by implication to enact (laws being cut in stone or metal tablets in primitive times) or (generally) prescribe: - appoint, decree, governor, grave, lawgiver, note, pourtray, print, set.

The fact that the Kingly line came from YAHUDAH, when the Israelites rejected YHWH's rule. The term Lawgiver refers to the civil laws of the King, not the the Torah, except as it applied to the scribes that made copies of the originals. The Scribes were not given the authority to create New Religious Law.

Hos. 11:12 reveals the northern tribes were led astray by lies and lost their identity, evening believing the lie that they're Gentiles and acting like Gentiles - they lost their mind and identity - yet YAHUDAH remembers who they are and have preserved EL's Word faithfully. Throughout history YsraEL has been fickle and irresponsible.

If the Northern tribes lost their Identity how in the Time of Yahshua we have Anna of the tribe of Asher and also how could YAHSHUA send the Apostles to the House of the lost sheep of Israel(the northern ten tribes) if they could not be identified and were no longer a people?

If the identity of the Northern tribes was in doubt then why is there no discussion of this in the the Brit Hadash / NT. All of the NT writings treat YAHSHUA's instructions as thought the Writers and the Apostles' themselves also were aware of where to find the Northern 10 tribes. Whether those inside YsraeEL or those scattered in the diaspora. Early church history reports at least one or more of the Apostles travelled to India to make contact with the lost sheep of the house of YsraEL[meaning those of the Northern 10 tribes].

I would suggest a reading of "The Lost 10 Tribes - Found" - by Steven Collins. The book contains ten times more document material than the US & Britain In Prophecy and it was not plagarized. The book also helps the reader to better understand how the Apostles knew where to go to find the Northern 10 Tribes as YAHSHUA instructed.

[yod]

Do you realise that Israel was divided, had two kings at the same time?

These are true genetic Israelites, but they never were Jews, not ever.


If you were of the tribe of Napthali and moved to Jerusalem, you became a Judean. That has more to do with the area an Israelite lived in than the tribe he came from. There were Levites and Benjamites in the land of Judea who were also called jews because they lived in the Southern Kingdom. Jesus was crucified by Pontious Pilate and the crime was?

"King of the Jews" though He was from the Galilee. The disciples were all jews, the Apostles were all jews, the church was completely jewish....but there were MANY from the northern kingdom and the "lost" tribes included.

In the book of Nehemiah, many of the dispersed from the nothern kingdom came back with the Babylonian dispersion. They had problems proving their lineage in some cases but they were still called jews.

This entire theology is built on bad semantics.

Please reconsider.

[Sabian]

Shalom Yod.

When they became Livite, YAHudim and Benjanites...
what land were they in? Did the land make then what they were or blood? Were they all living in seperate lands?
YAHSHUA was concidered a YAHUIDM because of his blood.
Paul also concidered himself to be a Roman Citizen.
So you tell me was he a Jew, a Benjamite,or a Roman? Or a child of YAH?
You are stating that all of the twelve were Jews, can you show that to me.

[simchat_torah]

I have seen the argument made over the word "jew" before.

What many people ignore is the context today. Today, "Jew" is a term loosely used to refer to anyone from any of the 12 tribes.

I understand it's historical usage. However, even by the 1st century "Jew" was an idiom. No longer was it being used in the literal sense.


Shalom,
Yafet.

[Sabian]

The word Jew itself was not around in the first century.

And part of what I was getting at is that this took place before YAHSHUA . That YAHUDAH means one who praises YAH. That being a YAHUDAH today has very little to do with blood.

What is everybodies difinition of Gentile?
And how do you define Jew?

A person who lives in Judaea ?
By the land ?
By the blood?
By the spirit?

[Sabian]

Simon, was called the Zealot or Canaanite
Matt 10:4
mark 3:18
luke 6:15
acts 1:13

Zealots were Fanatical Jewish Nationalists.
Josephus says the Zealots were reckless persons zealous in good practices and extravagant and reckless in the worst actions.

[Wags]

Wow! Talk about resurecting an OLD thread. I didn't think threads from TWO years ago were even still in the archieves.

[debi b]

As this thread is over two years old - the OP has been answered.