The purpose of the pastor and the church

[jazzypooh]

ok, so this is continuing the discussion that began in another thread about pastors.

these are my questions:

1. Is it biblical to rebuke an elder? If so, how is this supposed to be done? I know that the Bible says you're supposed to get 2 or 3 witnesses, but I have never seen anybody do that before. at least not the way scripture says it's supposed to be done. so basically, either we're being abused by leadership or we're in violation of scripture?

2. Isn't the purpose of the pastor to lead and nurture the sheep? Doesn't the Bible say that they're supposd to keep watch over our souls? How can we trust them and be suspicious at the same time? Or should they do a better job of gaining our trust?

3. Exactly how much are we to expect from our leaders and our churches? Where is the line drawn? I'm having a hard time understanding that. I hear on one end, the pastor is the head of you and just trust him/her with no questioning, and then on the other end I hear that you question everything they do and say? I'm not saying you trust them blindly without studying to show yourself approved. I'm just asking where is the line drawn. How much are we supposed to expect from them?

[jazzypooh]

this was a quote from the other thread along with my response to it:

That depends on who you put your trust in. Do you put your trust in man or God?

i trust God, but aren't we supposed to submit to the man or woman of God that He called to pastor our souls? if He's called them to lead us, then why do we question when they lead? why question every single move they make? i'm not saying that we just follow blindly without discerning spirits. but i just dont understand how we can trust them like we're supposed to, and be suspicious of their every move at the same time.


I think Isaiah 9:16 means two things. First, that no man on earth knows the total truth so we should get to know the word (bible) well enough to discern truth. And second, it is God who determines our footsteps (the course of our lives), not our pastor so we should get to know the Word (Christ) better. It is He who is our Sheppard.

and i believe that too. but He's also ordained pastors to shepherd us too right? didn't Paul say something along the lines of "follow me as i follow Christ"?


But don’t take my word for it because I am just as fallible as the next guy. Nevertheless, here are some verses I think support what I have said:

1 Corinthians 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, …

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

John 10:4-6 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.

1 Corinthians 3:18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise.

1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

Jesus is our Ultimate Shepherd, yes. and then He's raised up pastors to be shepherds as well, right?

[New_Wineskin]

ok, so this is continuing the discussion that began in another thread about pastors.

these are my questions:

1. Is it biblical to rebuke an elder? If so, how is this supposed to be done? I know that the Bible says you're supposed to get 2 or 3 witnesses, but I have never seen anybody do that before. at least not the way scripture says it's supposed to be done. so basically, either we're being abused by leadership or we're in violation of scripture?


It would depend on your group's doctrine on this . If your group allows it , then the elder would accept it as part of the group's doctrine .



2. Isn't the purpose of the pastor to lead and nurture the sheep? Doesn't the Bible say that they're supposd to keep watch over our souls? How can we trust them and be suspicious at the same time? Or should they do a better job of gaining our trust?


Who watches the watchers ? If they are unwilling to give an acount of themselves and be transparent , are they displaying that they are trustworthy ?



3. Exactly how much are we to expect from our leaders and our churches? Where is the line drawn? I'm having a hard time understanding that. I hear on one end, the pastor is the head of you and just trust him/her with no questioning, and then on the other end I hear that you question everything they do and say? I'm not saying you trust them blindly without studying to show yourself approved. I'm just asking where is the line drawn. How much are we supposed to expect from them?

The groups have total control over this . What are their doctrines and bylaws ? They should be able to deal with situations as they arise .

[jazzypooh]

what "groups" are you talking about? i'm referring to the pastor and the congregation.

please set aside the doctrines for a minute. i'm trying to see what the Word says about this.

[LJSGM]

Discernment is not the same thing as suspicion.

Is another servant suppose to "Rule over" other servants in Christ or are they suspose to "serve"? What does it mean to be a servant? Deacon means servant.

John 14
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

1 John 2

27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Some people believe that their fellow servants are weak and easily lead astray (and they aren't^_^ )so that they NEED to be under someone else's authority. But the bible says the reason for serving others is for EDIFICATION of the church. Why do people need someone to rule over them if we have recieved the same SPIRIT that empowers us? Does it not say that GOD will make us stand?

Romans 14

4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

[james415]

Exactly how much are we to expect from our leaders and our churches? Where is the line drawn?

You should obey the pastor you choose. But if you choose a pastor, choose a pastor you trust. And when he stumbles, forgive him because sooner or later he will stumble.

The only way you can discern truth is to know the word of God for yourself.

A U.S News article:

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - Saying that he was a “deceiver and liar” who had given in to his dark side, the Rev. Ted Haggard confessed to sexual immorality Sunday in a letter read from the pulpit of the megachurch he founded.

Read the full article here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15536263/).

[LJSGM]

When one says they have power and authority, is that power and authority over others in the church, or is it power and authority to do God's work... evanglism, healing, prophesy, ect.? (or both?)

[christianmomof3]

1. Is it biblical to rebuke an elder? If so, how is this supposed to be done? I know that the Bible says you're supposed to get 2 or 3 witnesses, but I have never seen anybody do that before. at least not the way scripture says it's supposed to be done. so basically, either we're being abused by leadership or we're in violation of scripture?

I think this depends upon the leadership of your church that you meet with. If you feel abused, you should pray about it and perhaps leave. I don't know how your church is set up, but there should be elders - as in more than one and if you have a concern, you should speak to them. If you have an elder or a pastor that you are concerned about, you should let one of the other elders know about it and ask him to fellowship about the concern with the other elders. If nothing happens then you might pray and return to the elders with others who share your concern. You should be going in prayer and in a respectful way and not in a rebuking way. I would simply suggest bringing up the concern and letting the elders rebuke the one who is the problem.

2. Isn't the purpose of the pastor to lead and nurture the sheep? Doesn't the Bible say that they're supposd to keep watch over our souls? How can we trust them and be suspicious at the same time? Or should they do a better job of gaining our trust?

If you do not trust your pastors then you should pray about them, pray for them and ask the Lord to lead you in what you should do.

3. Exactly how much are we to expect from our leaders and our churches? Where is the line drawn? I'm having a hard time understanding that. I hear on one end, the pastor is the head of you and just trust him/her with no questioning, and then on the other end I hear that you question everything they do and say? I'm not saying you trust them blindly without studying to show yourself approved. I'm just asking where is the line drawn. How much are we supposed to expect from them?

You should pray for your leaders and for your church. You should ask the Lord what to expect and what you should do yourself.

[New_Wineskin]

what "groups" are you talking about? i'm referring to the pastor and the congregation.

please set aside the doctrines for a minute. i'm trying to see what the Word says about this.

Well , *that* is a *huge* doctrine . By "groups" , I am talking about the clubs calling themselves "churches" . They are in control of who they call their leaders and how they are to be confronted .

[Tavita]

If you look at the model of the New Testament church they had Elders, Deacons and the five fold ministry (apostles, pastors, prophets, evangelists and teachers). The Pastor was not called to 'lead' a church, the Elders were called to lead. And usually it was more than one Elder so they could all be held accountable by the other Elders, and the five ministry gifts could be held accountable too.

The pastor was one of the five fold ministry gifts given to men at Christ's ascension..

Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

And the purpose...

Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

They are given as a 'gift' to the church...

Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

You will notice some of the Epistles are addressed to the Elders in certain cities.

The modern church is so far removed from the early church it's not easy at all to give advice on how to trust Pastors anymore. Simply because having one man in charge of a church is not how it's suppose to be done.

Pastors are there to shepherd the flock. A true Pastor has a gift of being able to shepherd, to care for and love the congregation. Most Pastors these days don't have the ascension gift of pastor and are just called upon to lead a church. Which again, is not how the church should operate.

Elders, Deacons, and the five fold ministry are not meant to be 'over' the rest of the congregation. They are there to serve and to build the body up so it can come to full maturity in Christ. That doesn't happen anymore, it seems to be the congregation is there to serve the leadership. I guess this is why a lot of people are leaving the organized church these days because it is just too far removed from the original.

As someone else said in regards to rebuking an Elder. Pray about it a lot and go talk to them. Don't accuse them but talk and let them know how you feel.

[jazzypooh]

Well , *that* is a *huge* doctrine . By "groups" , I am talking about the clubs calling themselves "churches" . They are in control of who they call their leaders and how they are to be confronted .
i'm gonna overlook your sarcasm

but all the churches i've been to, the pastor was never chosen by the congregation. they were always appointed by the previous pastor. they would have some say in it, but basically the only options they had were the ones given to them by their previous pastor.

like for instance, at my last church, the pastor is really old and sickly, so knows he's about to die. so he went and got an associate pastor that he picked and he decided upon all by himself. and basically, the congregation just went along with it and decided that he was a nice man for the job. but they had no other choice. he was their only option. because that was the only person that the pastor chose.

[jazzypooh]

When one says they have power and authority, is that power and authority over others in the church, or is it power and authority to do God's work... evanglism, healing, prophesy, ect.? (or both?)
i can never tell. every pastor i've ever listened to has always said that he or she is the "head" and no one is supposed to go against the "head." what does that even mean?

[jazzypooh]

If you look at the model of the New Testament church they had Elders, Deacons and the five fold ministry (apostles, pastors, prophets, evangelists and teachers). The Pastor was not called to 'lead' a church, the Elders were called to lead. And usually it was more than one Elder so they could all be held accountable by the other Elders, and the five ministry gifts could be held accountable too.

The pastor was one of the five fold ministry gifts given to men at Christ's ascension..

Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

And the purpose...

Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

They are given as a 'gift' to the church...

Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

You will notice some of the Epistles are addressed to the Elders in certain cities.

The modern church is so far removed from the early church it's not easy at all to give advice on how to trust Pastors anymore. Simply because having one man in charge of a church is not how it's suppose to be done.

Pastors are there to shepherd the flock. A true Pastor has a gift of being able to shepherd, to care for and love the congregation. Most Pastors these days don't have the ascension gift of pastor and are just called upon to lead a church. Which again, is not how the church should operate.

Elders, Deacons, and the five fold ministry are not meant to be 'over' the rest of the congregation. They are there to serve and to build the body up so it can come to full maturity in Christ. That doesn't happen anymore, it seems to be the congregation is there to serve the leadership. I guess this is why a lot of people are leaving the organized church these days because it is just too far removed from the original.

As someone else said in regards to rebuking an Elder. Pray about it a lot and go talk to them. Don't accuse them but talk and let them know how you feel.
this still seems confusing. it's like no matter how you look at it, the problem is still there. it seems like all i can do is pray about it.

and the church isn't set up like it used to be. there are no elders in my church or in any church i've ever been to. the pastor was the only one in "authority" which is what makes it hard to even get anything resolved especially when the problem involves them. they feel like they can't be wrong about anything. and because they're always right, you're always the one wrong.

[Tavita]

this still seems confusing. it's like no matter how you look at it, the problem is still there. it seems like all i can do is pray about it.

and the church isn't set up like it used to be. there are no elders in my church or in any church i've ever been to. the pastor was the only one in "authority" which is what makes it hard to even get anything resolved especially when the problem involves them. they feel like they can't be wrong about anything. and because they're always right, you're always the one wrong.

Oy vey!

That's why I said to you...

The modern church is so far removed from the early church it's not easy at all to give advice on how to trust Pastors anymore. Simply because having one man in charge of a church is not how it's suppose to be done.

There is no easy answer for you. All I can advise is that you REALLY seek the Lord about it. I know there are a few good churches here and there where the Pastor does not abuse his position and encourages the congregation to walk in the works already ordained for them, so I really hope you can find one. Or maybe, a homechurch, have you given that a thought?

As for myself, I left the organised church/religion about four years ago and don't think I will ever go back. I have fellowship with some Christian friends and we do works like feeding the poor etc, and go to a prayer meeting, otherwise I learn everything by the Lord's hand now. I will never put myself 'under' another man's abuse of position again.

[jazzypooh]

i guess i will just have to seek the Lord then. i dont think He's leading me down the road you've taken, but i'll keep an open mind to whatever He tells me. thanks for your help.

God bless.

[bithiah2]

If you look at the model of the New Testament church they had Elders, Deacons and the five fold ministry (apostles, pastors, prophets, evangelists and teachers). The Pastor was not called to 'lead' a church, the Elders were called to lead. And usually it was more than one Elder so they could all be held accountable by the other Elders, and the five ministry gifts could be held accountable too.

The pastor was one of the five fold ministry gifts given to men at Christ's ascension..

Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

And the purpose...

Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

They are given as a 'gift' to the church...

Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

You will notice some of the Epistles are addressed to the Elders in certain cities.

The modern church is so far removed from the early church it's not easy at all to give advice on how to trust Pastors anymore. Simply because having one man in charge of a church is not how it's suppose to be done.

Pastors are there to shepherd the flock. A true Pastor has a gift of being able to shepherd, to care for and love the congregation. Most Pastors these days don't have the ascension gift of pastor and are just called upon to lead a church. Which again, is not how the church should operate.

Elders, Deacons, and the five fold ministry are not meant to be 'over' the rest of the congregation. They are there to serve and to build the body up so it can come to full maturity in Christ. That doesn't happen anymore, it seems to be the congregation is there to serve the leadership. I guess this is why a lot of people are leaving the organized church these days because it is just too far removed from the original.

As someone else said in regards to rebuking an Elder. Pray about it a lot and go talk to them. Don't accuse them but talk and let them know how you feel.

i agree with this post, i think it answers the questions.
the pastor is not supposed to run over the people. he is supposed to teach and preach the Word, and look out for the spiritual well-being of the people in the church, and do the things that help them to grow. we have the idea of submission mixed up with control, and letting them direct our lives, when that is the Holy Spirit's job, not theirs.
as far as rebuking an elder, i believe that means that if we have a question or if something is wrong, we can question them in a respectful manner. if they are not approachable then i would think twice about being part of their ministry. the pastor of my former church was rude:eek: to me...i got away from him. i don't allow anyone to disrespect me.

that church is in a big mess now.
blessings,
bithiah2

[james415]

2. Isn't the purpose of the pastor to lead and nurture the sheep? Doesn't the Bible say that they're supposd to keep watch over our souls?

If you are born of God, Christ will keep you safe regardless of your pastor.

1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, …

1 John 5:18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.

[New_Wineskin]

i'm gonna overlook your sarcasm


Actually , I wasn't being sarcastic , at all .



but all the churches i've been to, the pastor was never chosen by the congregation. they were always appointed by the previous pastor. they would have some say in it, but basically the only options they had were the ones given to them by their previous pastor.


That should have been in the rules of the group . If not , the previous leaders were taking liberties not allowed to them .

I have heard of a couple of ways of doing it . This way shows way too much power in one person .



like for instance, at my last church, the pastor is really old and sickly, so knows he's about to die. so he went and got an associate pastor that he picked and he decided upon all by himself. and basically, the congregation just went along with it and decided that he was a nice man for the job. but they had no other choice. he was their only option. because that was the only person that the pastor chose.

Sounds like the group didn't want to think for themselves . However , since the group allowed it , that is that . Have you looked into the rules of your previous groups ? What would happen if the leader just dropped dead with no ready replacement ?

There is a growing idea that a single ( meaning one ) leader is not a good idea and a "pluralship of elders" is best . However , if they are all in something worng together , it doesn't help .


Tavita said something quite true and helps to show from where I am coming . They wrote : The modern church is so far removed from the early church it's not easy at all to give advice on how to trust Pastors anymore. Simply because having one man in charge of a church is not how it's suppose to be done.

Since the groups no longer function and interact they way they did when the Scriptures were written , trying to fit the Scriptures in the situations doesn't work . For instance , you are asking about rebuking a leader . Well , "biblically" any leader would be your leader . You wouldn't be able to rebuke your leader or the leader of the group next door or so on . You would also have to obey them all . But , the thing about denominations is - that is not how things work . Each group is an entity of its own and wants to be such . Even the denominations are seperate from each other .

So , either you obey the leaders of all the groups or let each group decide on how they want to manage themselves . If you want to say that another group is not doing things biblically , then they have the right to come into your group and make decisions .

That is why I have stated in my previous posts that the groups decide how a leader is to be confronted . Are they all equals ? Then , so be it . Is the leader untouchable and able to do whatever they want ? Well , the group decided that .

[New_Wineskin]

i can never tell. every pastor i've ever listened to has always said that he or she is the "head" and no one is supposed to go against the "head." what does that even mean?

It means that they want complete lordship and none are to question their ways .

[New_Wineskin]

this still seems confusing. it's like no matter how you look at it, the problem is still there. it seems like all i can do is pray about it.

and the church isn't set up like it used to be. there are no elders in my church or in any church i've ever been to. the pastor was the only one in "authority" which is what makes it hard to even get anything resolved especially when the problem involves them. they feel like they can't be wrong about anything. and because they're always right, you're always the one wrong.

Yeah . It is like that in many groups - even denominations . Some groups have a council set up . *They* have the power . They are elected and the elections happen every so often . The problem is that they sometimes make the pastor or elder their puppet . Any false move and they get rid of the leader . Humans and power - that is what this is all about .

[LJSGM]

Yeah . It is like that in many groups - even denominations . Some groups have a council set up . *They* have the power . They are elected and the elections happen every so often . The problem is that they sometimes make the pastor or elder their puppet . Any false move and they get rid of the leader . Humans and power - that is what this is all about .
Man made doctrines and men appointed by men. No wonder the Holy Spirit is not moving in these churches. They are DEAD. They have no one to follow but their own flesh, because christ, their true head, is not consulted and no where to be found.

[Zecryphon]

ok, so this is continuing the discussion that began in another thread about pastors.

these are my questions:

1. Is it biblical to rebuke an elder? If so, how is this supposed to be done? I know that the Bible says you're supposed to get 2 or 3 witnesses, but I have never seen anybody do that before. at least not the way scripture says it's supposed to be done. so basically, either we're being abused by leadership or we're in violation of scripture?

2. Isn't the purpose of the pastor to lead and nurture the sheep? Doesn't the Bible say that they're supposd to keep watch over our souls? How can we trust them and be suspicious at the same time? Or should they do a better job of gaining our trust?

3. Exactly how much are we to expect from our leaders and our churches? Where is the line drawn? I'm having a hard time understanding that. I hear on one end, the pastor is the head of you and just trust him/her with no questioning, and then on the other end I hear that you question everything they do and say? I'm not saying you trust them blindly without studying to show yourself approved. I'm just asking where is the line drawn. How much are we supposed to expect from them?
"1. Is it biblical to rebuke an elder? If so, how is this supposed to be done? I know that the Bible says you're supposed to get 2 or 3 witnesses, but I have never seen anybody do that before."

I believe it is Biblical to rebuke anyone who is not upholding the calling and duties of their office, whether it be the evangelist, the Christian, the elder or the pastor. All are to be held accountable. Matthew 18 lays out the model for church discipline and how matters pertaining to that are to be handled. Before you get to the 2 or 3 witnesses you are to go alone to the person and confront them with your concerns. It is only if they do not listen that you return with 2 or 3 witnesses and if they still do not listen then you present it to the congregation. If at that point, they still will not listen you are to expel them from among your number as they are clearly unrepentant. People that do not do this, when it is necessary, are not doing what God has commanded be done. Be wary of these people.

"at least not the way scripture says it's supposed to be done. so basically, either we're being abused by leadership or we're in violation of scripture?"

I believe there is only one head of the church and it's not the pastor, but Christ Himself. If the pastor will not do his job, ask him why. If he cops an attitude, rebuke him as well, but do so lovingly. In matters of church discipline, a loving, concerned attitude is what is needed. We want to correct errors, but we want to do so with love for the congregation as a whole, not just because we feel we are right and they are wrong.

"2. Isn't the purpose of the pastor to lead and nurture the sheep? Doesn't the Bible say that they're supposd to keep watch over our souls? How can we trust them and be suspicious at the same time? Or should they do a better job of gaining our trust?"

If you do not trust your pastor from the getgo or day one, I don't think there is anything they are going to be able to do to gain your trust. If you find you do not or can not trust your pastor for whatever reason, find another church with a pastor you do trust.

"3. Exactly how much are we to expect from our leaders and our churches?"

I've come to expect nothing from them. The church in this country today exists as a corporate entity more than as a house of worship. They are consumed with things like: church growth, advertising, being seeker-sensitive/friendly, budgets, bigger campuses, etc. The teachings of God have taken a backseat to their own ambitions for success and purpose. The message these churches present is often in stark contrast with what the Bible teaches. They present the "personal helper" God. The God that exists to help you get through the week and help you be the best you, you can be.

"Where is the line drawn? I'm having a hard time understanding that. I hear on one end, the pastor is the head of you and just trust him/her with no questioning, and then on the other end I hear that you question everything they do and say? I'm not saying you trust them blindly without studying to show yourself approved. I'm just asking where is the line drawn. How much are we supposed to expect from them?"

Expect nothing, that way you will never be disapointed when they don't live up to your expectations. Also, if you expect nothing, when they do good things you will be amazed. It's a horrible starting point, but a necessary one given the state of the modern-day church in this country.

[New_Wineskin]

Man made doctrines and men appointed by men. No wonder the Holy Spirit is not moving in these churches. They are DEAD. They have no one to follow but their own flesh, because christ, their true head, is not consulted and no where to be found.

That is what you get when most say that the Scriptures are the authority and not the Lord via the Spirit .

[james415]

That is what you get when most say that the Scriptures are the authority and not the Lord via the Spirit .
The word that apposes the Word!

[LJSGM]

The word that apposes the Word!
The Holy spirit does not oppose the scriptures, but confirms teaching that is scripturally sound.

[james415]

The Holy spirit does not oppose the scriptures, but confirms teaching that is scripturally sound.

Sorry, I was using the terms loosely. What I meant can be said in a number of ways...

The word of man opposes the Word of God.
The will of man opposes the Will of God.
The plans of men oppose the Plan of God.
The plans of men are many, they are legion.

[amadeus2]

It would depend on your group's doctrine on this . If your group allows it , then the elder would accept it as part of the group's doctrine .

But what does God say? This group does thi or does that according to the traditions of men, but what does God say?


Who watches the watchers ? If they are unwilling to give an acount of themselves and be transparent , are they displaying that they are trustworthy ?

Let God watch the watchers! We need to keep our eyes on Jesus. If He shows us something is wrong anddesires us to act upon it well and good. Jesus is or should be the head of the Body. If we focus on Him we cannot go wrong.

The groups have total control over this . What are their doctrines and bylaws ? They should be able to deal with situations as they arise .

What are their doctrines and bylaws? This is asking after the traditions of men. What about God? What about Jesus? What about being led by the Holy Ghost?

[amadeus2]

You should obey the pastor you choose. But if you choose a pastor, choose a pastor you trust. And when he stumbles, forgive him because sooner or later he will stumble.

The only way you can discern truth is to know the word of God for yourself.

A U.S News article:

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - Saying that he was a “deceiver and liar” who had given in to his dark side, the Rev. Ted Haggard confessed to sexual immorality Sunday in a letter read from the pulpit of the megachurch he founded.

Read the full article here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15536263/).
Or better...let God choose a pastor for you. Being led of God is certainly a better way than leading ourselves:

"O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps." Jerem 10:23

[amadeus2]

When one says they have power and authority, is that power and authority over others in the church, or is it power and authority to do God's work... evanglism, healing, prophesy, ect.? (or both?)
If the power and authority is from God then God has also given the extent of the authority.

"Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you." Heb 13:17

But also...

"Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ." I Cor 11:1

To the extent that our pastor does not imitate Christ we are not to imitate him.

[amadeus2]

i can never tell. every pastor i've ever listened to has always said that he or she is the "head" and no one is supposed to go against the "head." what does that even mean?
Listen to them and follow your heart. Should a person start at the highest place at the table of his/her own accord or should the elevation be done by another?

"When you are invited by anyone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in the best place, lest one more honorable than you be invited by him;"and he who invited you and him come and say to you, 'Give place to this man,' and then you begin with shame to take the lowest place."But when you are invited, go and sit down in the lowest place, so that when he who invited you comes he may say to you, 'Friend, go up higher.' Then you will have glory in the presence of those who sit at the table with you."For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."" Luke 14:8-11

[amadeus2]

this still seems confusing. it's like no matter how you look at it, the problem is still there. it seems like all i can do is pray about it.

This thing of praying about it is not a bad thing.

and the church isn't set up like it used to be. there are no elders in my church or in any church i've ever been to. the pastor was the only one in "authority" which is what makes it hard to even get anything resolved especially when the problem involves them. they feel like they can't be wrong about anything. and because they're always right, you're always the one wrong.

Pastors are only men:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But the
Lord weighs the hearts." Prov 21:2

[amadeus2]

Oy vey!

That's why I said to you...

The modern church is so far removed from the early church it's not easy at all to give advice on how to trust Pastors anymore. Simply because having one man in charge of a church is not how it's suppose to be done.

There is no easy answer for you. All I can advise is that you REALLY seek the Lord about it. I know there are a few good churches here and there where the Pastor does not abuse his position and encourages the congregation to walk in the works already ordained for them, so I really hope you can find one. Or maybe, a homechurch, have you given that a thought?

As for myself, I left the organised church/religion about four years ago and don't think I will ever go back. I have fellowship with some Christian friends and we do works like feeding the poor etc, and go to a prayer meeting, otherwise I learn everything by the Lord's hand now. I will never put myself 'under' another man's abuse of position again.
Even though I have gone this way myself, I do not advise it. Follow the Lord! Becertain where he is leading and then do not hesitate. He is always speaking but we are not always able to hear and understand Him. Pray for 'eyes to see' and 'ears to hear' what thus saith the Lord.

[jazzypooh]

Or better...let God choose a pastor for you. Being led of God is certainly a better way than leading ourselves:

"O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps." Jerem 10:23
well that's what i had recently did. i waited for God to lead me to another church. and He did. i joined about three weeks ago, but i still had some concerns about this topic. although God is perfect, man is not. and the pastor is just a man/woman. so they're not perfect and they can make mistakes and easily open a door for a controlling spirit.

so i just had some questions about all this...

but also, i'm beginning to see that if the Lord led me here then He didn't make a mistake. so i just trust His decision, and trust Him with my life. that's all we can do, right?

[jazzypooh]

If the power and authority is from God then God has also given the extent of the authority.

"Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you." Heb 13:17

But also...

"Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ." I Cor 11:1

To the extent that our pastor does not imitate Christ we are not to imitate him.
that makes sense, but shouldn't we say something if they're not imitating Him like they should be, especially since they are to keep watch over our souls. how can they keep watch over our souls, if they're not keeping watch over their own?

[PastorJacob]

Unfortunately, pastor, elder, minister etc have now become a title.
I like johnchao's posts, which really make me a mouth of the Lord as I proclaim the sound doctrine.
As you read it aloud to your family, you are pastoring or ministering! The Word is God and Yahweh is our shepherd. The Word is on your lips and confess the Word is Jesus and Lord, and you will be saved (Ro10:8-10).

[james415]

so i just trust His decision, and trust Him with my life. that's all we can do, right?

Great answer. And yes, you are right.

Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

John 15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

[New_Wineskin]

But what does God say? This group does thi or does that according to the traditions of men, but what does God say?

That is for the people to ask Him and find out . I would love for them to do so . :)



Let God watch the watchers! We need to keep our eyes on Jesus. If He shows us something is wrong anddesires us to act upon it well and good. Jesus is or should be the head of the Body. If we focus on Him we cannot go wrong.


I agree . I was discussing on how people want to interact with those having titles . It isn't a big issue for me . But , it is a huge issue with the OP .



What are their doctrines and bylaws? This is asking after the traditions of men. What about God? What about Jesus? What about being led by the Holy Ghost?

That is my goal . However , for the questions asked , they want to know about leaders of groups .

[New_Wineskin]

...and trust Him with my life. that's all we can do, right?

Yup . :thumbsup:

[amadeus2]

That is for the people to ask Him and find out . I would love for them to do so . :)




I agree . I was discussing on how people want to interact with those having titles . It isn't a big issue for me . But , it is a huge issue with the OP .




That is my goal . However , for the questions asked , they want to know about leaders of groups .
Well said! I did not mean to offend and I sincerely apologize if I did.

[amadeus2]

well that's what i had recently did. i waited for God to lead me to another church. and He did. i joined about three weeks ago, but i still had some concerns about this topic. although God is perfect, man is not. and the pastor is just a man/woman. so they're not perfect and they can make mistakes and easily open a door for a controlling spirit.

so i just had some questions about all this...

but also, i'm beginning to see that if the Lord led me here then He didn't make a mistake. so i just trust His decision, and trust Him with my life. that's all we can do, right?

If you believe that He brought to where you are then simply strive to abide in Him. We cannot do even that alone, but if we ask Him (as often as is necessary) then He will help us to abide in Him.

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you." Matt 7:7

[amadeus2]

that makes sense, but shouldn't we say something if they're not imitating Him like they should be, especially since they are to keep watch over our souls. how can they keep watch over our souls, if they're not keeping watch over their own?

:amen:

[New_Wineskin]

Well said! I did not mean to offend and I sincerely apologize if I did.

No offense . We are only discussing . :)

[jazzypooh]

thanks everyone for your inputs. all of you have been very helpful.

God bless each of you!