I think I am a Lutheran

[PowderedGold]

To say that I am a new convert to Christianity is not exactly true. I was converted (from no religious affiliation) about seven years ago but I've since fallen away from my faith. Now I am attempting to reclaim that faith.

Unfortunately, I was converted by a cult called the International Church of Christ or also the Boston Church of Christ. I have no association with that group any longer but nor do I have any church to which I claim membership.

I've been doing a little bit of research into various Christian denominations, looking for one that reflects the things I feel are true about God, Christ, and the Bible. After much searching, it seems to me that the Lutheran interpretation of the Bible is the closest approximation of what I have come to believe is the true nature of our relationship with God.

In particular, I believe that faith in Christ is what provides a person with salvation. I believe faith in Christ and God is the most important thing in the life of any Christian.

The one thing that trips me up, however, is the notion that faith itself is a gift from God. I don't quite understand this. I thought faith was how one received the gifts of God. Was faith a gift given to all people, or just those who are selected? If that's true, and God selects people to be given faith, then how is that any different from predestination since we wouldn't have any choice in the matter? And why would someone even struggle with faith? They would simply have it or they wouldn't.

I hope someone can explain this matter to me a bit more clearly and help me understand.

Also, any advice or insights regarding being a Lutheran would be greatly appreciated. I read the "Why are you a Lutheran?" thread and enjoyed it very much. If anyone else would like to offer me their testimony, on this thread or in a PM, I would appreciate it very much.

Thanks!

-Morgan

[filosofer]

To say that I am a new convert to Christianity is not exactly true. I was converted (from no religious affiliation) about seven years ago but I've since fallen away from my faith. Now I am attempting to reclaim that faith.

Unfortunately, I was converted by a cult called the International Church of Christ or also the Boston Church of Christ. I have no association with that group any longer but nor do I have any church to which I claim membership.

I've been doing a little bit of research into various Christian denominations, looking for one that reflects the things I feel are true about God, Christ, and the Bible. After much searching, it seems to me that the Lutheran interpretation of the Bible is the closest approximation of what I have come to believe is the true nature of our relationship with God.

In particular, I believe that faith in Christ is what provides a person with salvation. I believe faith in Christ and God is the most important thing in the life of any Christian.

The one thing that trips me up, however, is the notion that faith itself is a gift from God. I don't quite understand this. I thought faith was how one received the gifts of God. Was faith a gift given to all people, or just those who are selected? If that's true, and God selects people to be given faith, then how is that any different from predestination since we wouldn't have any choice in the matter? And why would someone even struggle with faith? They would simply have it or they wouldn't.

I hope someone can explain this matter to me a bit more clearly and help me understand.

Also, any advice or insights regarding being a Lutheran would be greatly appreciated. I read the "Why are you a Lutheran?" thread and enjoyed it very much. If anyone else would like to offer me their testimony, on this thread or in a PM, I would appreciate it very much.

Thanks!

-Morgan

Howdy, and welcome. How exciting that God is working in you, drawing to himself through his Word, and especially away from the cult.

Perhaps the starting point should be with the condition of humans apart from God's grace. According to Ephesians 2:1, we "were dead in the trespasses and sins." But Paul goes on to say in vv. 4-5:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ...

Notice that God "made us alive," which is another way of saying he created faith in us. So when we get to vv. 8-9, we discover that the "gift" includes all aspects of salvation, including faith itself.


For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.


That is, "it" refers to God's grace, his salvation, and the faith which he worked in us to receive the salvation.

HTH

In Christ's love,
filo

[LilLamb219]

Hi Morgan! I hope you stick around and keep asking questions! Remember though that we're all sinful human beings and you might see our bad sides from time to time. Ignore that though and see past it to what is presented instead biblically :)

[porterross]

Hi Morgan! I hope you stick around and keep asking questions! Remember though that we're all sinful human beings and you might see our bad sides from time to time. Ignore that though and see past it to what is presented instead biblically :)

Now, whatever could you mean, Lambi? :confused: :D :P


Welcome, Morgan. Praise God for leading you away from something that was hurting your relationship with Him.

Listen to Filosofer. ;)
He is as loving and gentle as he is knowledgeable. We are blessed to have him here to provide an example for us all. :pray:

[Lupinus]

Do you like jello, coffee, prefer sitting in the back of the church, and say uffda! after whacking your thumb with a hammer? And get urges to say "and also with you" while watching Star Wars? If so you might be.....

Seriously and all joking aside I share your view that Lutheran churches stick about as closely to scripture as you get. Sola Scriptura is a term you will hear a lot, scripture alone. We don't get it from cannon law, traditions, things our church leaders decided would be nice. We get it from scripture, the only things where you will get tradition on would be things the bible isn't 100% clear on (such as sprinkling instead of dunking when it comes to baptism).

As a recent convert myself I found Lutherans to be right on with what I had already found myself believing from just what I felt to be right. I did a lot of research before finally choosing to even set foot in a church, everything that made me go "huh what?" seemed to be with other denominations, I can't honestly remember that happening once in my researching the Lutheran denomination.

As for faith being a gift from God? Yes, I think so. We are by nature sinful and unclean, the Devil has us as we are fallen. God calls us to faith offering it to us as a gift. So no we do not all have faith.

What sets us apart from predestination is this. Predestination says that certain people are bound to be saved, certain people are not. Its just that, predetermined and exclusive. However, we believe that the gift is offered to everyone, it is our sinful unclean nature that keeps some (arguably many) from accepting that gift/call of faith. So I guess to us it would be more of a gift/call offered to everyone with our sinful nature keeping us from always accepting, predestination believers would say that God has decided for you with you having no part of it. That might have come out wrong pr jumbled, hope it made sense lol.

As for insights I'm still learning those myself as I am new. But some stuff I picked up on- There are several different "flavors" or Lutheran churches, with ELCA being pretty liberal (women pastors, much more progressive views, etc) and LCMS or WELS being more conservative and bound more closely to scripture (IMO), WELS being the more conservative. There's also a host of smaller ones that go all over the board as well. Worshiping with an ELCA church could be a much different thing then an LCMS church for instance. Most are going to based on a liturgy, following a set service from a hymnal with prepared prayers for the service.

Have you read Luther's Small Catechism? If I remember correctly it is in this forum as a sticky. That will explain the chief parts of Christian faith from a Lutheran view.

[PowderedGold]

However, we believe that the gift is offered to everyone, it is our sinful unclean nature that keeps some (arguably many) from accepting that gift/call of faith.

When I think of a gift offered to everyone, but only accepted by some, I find the concept of faith as a gift from God much easier to swallow. Thanks for helping me to clarify that.

Also, to those who addressed my former cult issues, I appreciate your concern and encouragement. It was many years ago and I am well over it, fortunately. We should all pray for those who are still trapped in the cult lifestyle.

The Lutheran church in my town is an ELCA church, which suits me fine, because I am very liberal in my political and religious views.

I haven't quite decided how I feel about the liturgical services. Part of me likes some spontaneity, and another part of me like familiarity. Another part of me doesn't like singing in public but I suppose I can get past that. Does a typical Lutheran church also offer Bible studies? I'm the kind of person who likes to examine and discuss the various issues of theology in detail so study groups appeal to me.

Thanks very much for your replies, everybody.

[LilLamb219]

Does a typical Lutheran church also offer Bible studies? I'm the kind of person who likes to examine and discuss the various issues of theology in detail so study groups appeal to me.

If they don't offer it, there is something VERY WRONG there at that church!!!! :doh:

[Lupinus]

I haven't quite decided how I feel about the liturgical services. Part of me likes some spontaneity, and another part of me like familiarity. Another part of me doesn't like singing in public but I suppose I can get past that. Does a typical Lutheran church also offer Bible studies? I'm the kind of person who likes to examine and discuss the various issues of theology in detail so study groups appeal to me.

Well it isn't exactly like reading a script. There are normally a variety of settings/services that the Pastor can choose from depending on the service, communion Sundays, time of year, or just personal choice for that Sunday. We just got the new hymnals so we have been exparamenting with the basic ones to see whats liked best. Going back to the fact it isn't like a script, there are parts that are laid out and parts left open. Also many churches will add to it (a childrens message comes to mind). So it keeps thing familier and flowing, but depending on the church things will be added to it. It's a nice mixture of both basically.

As for singing in church we aren't all members of the choir. Some sing, some speak in rythem, some jsut read along, others just pretend to turn to the right page and listen to the hymn lol.

And I wont speak for all churches but I would suppose most offer bible studies. Mine has adult bible study and sunday school for an hour before church with about a 15 minute break between them ending and the service.

[Luther073082]

If they don't offer it, there is something VERY WRONG there at that church!!!! :doh:

No bible studies sounds very anti-Lutheran. I just wish my church didn't have all their bible studies at the same time I'm teaching sunday school. Grrr

And of course all the bible studies got suspended this summer due to the Randy Travis concert we put on and the planning for the 150th anniversary. :doh:

[DaRev]

Just to clarify...

God's gift of faith is given to all. It's not a matter of us "accepting" the gift in order to possess it. We already do possess it. Those who do not have faith either have actively rejected the gift of faith, or they simply do not know they have it yet.

Think of it this way...

There's a boy who has a birthday coming up. His parents decide to buy him a bicycle for his birthday. They buy it, they pay for it, they do the work of putting it together, and on his birthday they present it to him.

Now one might ask at which point does that bicycle belong to that boy. Some may say that it belongs to him when his parents gave it to him or when he accepted it from them. The reality, though, is that the bicycle was his at the moment his parents bought and paid for it. They didn't but it for themsleves. In fact, they may have referred to it as "Johnny's bicycle" even before they presented it to him. It was already his, he owned that bicycle. He just didn't know it until it was presented to him. He didn't have to pay for it or do anything to have it. All that was done for him, even without his knowledge.

Our faith and slavation form God is the same way. God made the decision, Christ did the work on the cross, and that salvation won at Calvary is ours. It belongs to us.
There is a time in our lives where that gift is presented to us. We call that conversion. Some of us were raised from infancy knowing that we have that gift, that we already have possession of it. Others don't find out until some time in their lives. The gift is presented in the proclamation of the Gospel. St. Paul writes in Romans 10:17, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

Now, Johnny owns that bicycle. He owned it even before he was aware of it. He did nothing to possess it. He didn't have to "accept" it to have ownership of it.
But he does have the ability to reject it and say he doesn't want it. By doing so, he does not receive any benefit from having the bicycle. In the same way, he also got no benefit from it before his birthday and before his parents presented it to him. We can't really benefit from something we don't even know we have.

Again, our faith is the same way. There are many (sadly) who have actively rejected this gift from God, and thus reject the benefits of everlasting life. And even more sad are those who have yet to even hear that they have this gift, and thus cannot benefit from it either. (Read Romans 10:13-17) This is why evangelism and outreach are so important, to get this message of salvation and hope to a world that so deparately needs to know about this gift.

[C.F.W. Walther]

Hi Morgan! I hope you stick around and keep asking questions! Remember though that we're all sinful human beings and you might see our bad sides from time to time. Ignore that though and see past it to what is presented instead biblically :)

Now, whatever could you mean, Lambi?


Welcome, Morgan. Praise God for leading you away from something that was hurting your relationship with Him.

Listen to Filosofer. ;)
He is as loving and gentle as he is knowledgeable. We are blessed to have him here to provide an example for us all. :pray:Yep---some of us are a little adamant-------well OK then obnoxious, but we mean well and are very serious about our faith and what God has done for us even though we don't deserve it.

[C.F.W. Walther]

Just to clarify...

God's gift of faith is given to all. It's not a matter of us "accepting" the gift in order to possess it. We already do possess it. Those who do not have faith either have actively rejected the gift of faith, or they simply do not know they have it yet.

Think of it this way...

There's a boy who has a birthday coming up. His parents decide to buy him a bicycle for his birthday. They buy it, they pay for it, they do the work of putting it together, and on his birthday they present it to him.

Now one might ask at which point does that bicycle belong to that boy. Some may say that it belongs to him when his parents gave it to him or when he accepted it from them. The reality, though, is that the bicycle was his at the moment his parents bought and paid for it. They didn't but it for themsleves. In fact, they may have referred to it as "Johnny's bicycle" even before they presented it to him. It was already his, he owned that bicycle. He just didn't know it until it was presented to him. He didn't have to pay for it or do anything to have it. All that was done for him, even without his knowledge.

Our faith and slavation form God is the same way. God made the decision, Christ did the work on the cross, and that salvation won at Calvary is ours. It belongs to us.
There is a time in our lives where that gift is presented to us. We call that conversion. Some of us were raised from infancy knowing that we have that gift, that we already have possession of it. Others don't find out until some time in their lives. The gift is presented in the proclamation of the Gospel. St. Paul writes in Romans 10:17, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

Now, Johnny owns that bicycle. He owned it even before he was aware of it. He did nothing to possess it. He didn't have to "accept" it to have ownership of it.
But he does have the ability to reject it and say he doesn't want it. By doing so, he does not receive any benefit from having the bicycle. In the same way, he also got no benefit from it before his birthday and before his parents presented it to him. We can't really benefit from something we don't even know we have.

Again, our faith is the same way. There are many (sadly) who have actively rejected this gift from God, and thus reject the benefits of everlasting life. And even more sad are those who have yet to even hear that they have this gift, and thus cannot benefit from it either. (Read Romans 10:13-17) This is why evangelism and outreach are so important, to get this message of salvation and hope to a world that so deparately needs to know about this gift.Again DaRev you say it so succinctly. :thumbsup:

[Edial]

Just to clarify...

God's gift of faith is given to all. It's not a matter of us "accepting" the gift in order to possess it. We already do possess it. Those who do not have faith either have actively rejected the gift of faith, or they simply do not know they have it yet.

Think of it this way...

There's a boy who has a birthday coming up. His parents decide to buy him a bicycle for his birthday. They buy it, they pay for it, they do the work of putting it together, and on his birthday they present it to him.

Now one might ask at which point does that bicycle belong to that boy. Some may say that it belongs to him when his parents gave it to him or when he accepted it from them. The reality, though, is that the bicycle was his at the moment his parents bought and paid for it. They didn't but it for themsleves. In fact, they may have referred to it as "Johnny's bicycle" even before they presented it to him. It was already his, he owned that bicycle. He just didn't know it until it was presented to him. He didn't have to pay for it or do anything to have it. All that was done for him, even without his knowledge.

Our faith and slavation form God is the same way. God made the decision, Christ did the work on the cross, and that salvation won at Calvary is ours. It belongs to us.
There is a time in our lives where that gift is presented to us. We call that conversion. Some of us were raised from infancy knowing that we have that gift, that we already have possession of it. Others don't find out until some time in their lives. The gift is presented in the proclamation of the Gospel. St. Paul writes in Romans 10:17, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

Now, Johnny owns that bicycle. He owned it even before he was aware of it. He did nothing to possess it. He didn't have to "accept" it to have ownership of it.
But he does have the ability to reject it and say he doesn't want it. By doing so, he does not receive any benefit from having the bicycle. In the same way, he also got no benefit from it before his birthday and before his parents presented it to him. We can't really benefit from something we don't even know we have.

Again, our faith is the same way. There are many (sadly) who have actively rejected this gift from God, and thus reject the benefits of everlasting life. And even more sad are those who have yet to even hear that they have this gift, and thus cannot benefit from it either. (Read Romans 10:13-17) This is why evangelism and outreach are so important, to get this message of salvation and hope to a world that so deparately needs to know about this gift.
This view fits VERY, VERY close to the Bible the way I understand it.

It is simple, even a child could understand it, no deep theology needed, and there is NOT ONE verse that contradicts it.

Thanks, :)
Ed