NAZIs, Abortion, and the Church

[Simon Peter]

The German church as a whole, largely failed to oppose the German governments systematic persecution and extermination of the Jews. There are plenty of isolated exceptions.

The NAZI’s passed laws declaring Jews “sub-human’, which within the Third Reich made the killing of Jews completely lawful. At the Nuremburg trials the defense was often used that they’d not broken any laws.

The laws in many western countries have effectively declared unborn children ‘sub-human’ and have therefore made it legal to kill them. (South American, African and Middle eastern countries generally have far greater restrictions).

This would make this ‘holocaust’, of tens of millions, far worse than the NAZI reign of terror.

What is the responsibility of the western church?
What should the church be doing that it’s not?
What is the church doing right?

How do you deal with this or justify it in your own mind?
What do you think is your responsibility?

[JAS4Yeshua]

I hate the fact that here in the US, an unborn baby is constantly referred to as a "fetus." It is one attempt to minimize assumed responsibility by giving it a name that implies no life.

Prayer is the most important thing we have that we can use. Getting involved in politics is next, doing what we can to change the laws, in legally available forums. Supporting organizations that teach the truth about abortions, and speaking to those you know who are thinking about preganancy.

I shy away from labels as "Pro-Choice" and "Pro-Life" because the fact of the matter is, it is a choice. The choice is to recognize that the unborn child is alive, and, as such, taking its life through abortion is murder. But everything needs to be handled in a loving and caring matter, letting God and the Holy Spirit move through prayer.

[FoundInGrace]

Abortion has touched my family and it is an incidious evil.

It is a difficult one to be involved in doing anything about because it is very emotional and painful for me, maybe i have not healed enough to be very involved in this because i feel a lot for the people who are in the position where they feel that is the only option for whatever reason.

but i remember reading in 'what's so amazing about grace' by philip yancey where mother teresa talked about abortion in america and how she said 'give them to me i will find a home where the child can be looked after and cared about'

that is how i feel and maybe one day God will make that possible for me to do, i'm not sure but maybe one day.

at the moment my response to it is to care for my family who have been affected by it.

in regard to what you have said, yes it is a holocaust.

[he4rty]

Its a difficult issue, plus at the time abortion laws were introduced people felt they were doing the right thing, As backstreet abortions were common and the risk to people high, but over time it has become another form of contraceptive for a number of people.
Don't know what or when I must of signed something, but do now get leaflets from a pro life group and although the message is good the language is I feel to strong.

I don't think laws of the land are really the Issue as these things will occur whatever, its more people being God educated thats needed and something in this country that now no longer happens, talk to anyone over 60 and they were all sent to sunday school but not now.

[mdaniel]

What is the responsibility of the western church?

To teach the wonderful news about Jesus Christ. That he died for us and we can experience a rebirth and spend eternity with him by believing in him.

How do you deal with this or justify it in your own mind? What do you think is your responsibility?

Why would I need to justify what a demon oppressed nation did fifty years ago?

On the abortion topic - as horrific as abortion is I think it's important to remind women who have had them that if they accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior they will be forgiven.

[flyingsum0]

Wow this is like doing a college essay again or somthing...

[Simon Peter]

but i remember reading in 'what's so amazing about grace' by philip yancey where mother teresa talked about abortion in america and how she said 'give them to me i will find a home where the child can be looked after and cared about'.

I heard Mother Teresa speak, via radio, on the topic of abortion one time. I think her text was:

Luke 9:48
(48) Then he said to them, "Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For he who is least among you all--he is the greatest."

She was speaking before the US government, and was given a standing ovation; except Clinton and Gore who remained sitting and did not clap. The media somehow failed to report that...

It is a difficult issue. I've also lost at least one relative to abortion. Some of the pro-life groups can come across a bit militant, as Hearty said. The difficulties of how to address this issue, and its low profile (compared to environmental issues) must be the reason that so many Christians virtually ignore it.

In the UK there appears to be a huge percentage of Christians who aren't that concerned about a politician's pro-life/pro-choice stance, when it comes to elections. That seems to be far less true in the US.

[geetrue]

What a subject? Sex, religion and mass murder all in the same thread.
Only three kinds of people will respond to this thread, hot, cold or lukewarm.

"It was God's fault"

For years I couldn't figure out the German race of people with a history of being a violent nation. I too not only wondered about the church being a lay down in the elimnation of the Jewish community, which Germany never hid the fact that they hated all Jews.

Not only the churches in Germany, but the church that bills itself as the mother church of all churches, the Catholic church also had very little to say, it's almost as if the church was led by God to have a low key atitude about the murdering of innocent people.

Puzzled that I would blame God? Like I said, you can only be one of three people on this subject, hot cold or lukewarm.

I will go so far as to state that I believe God is in charge of all three, Hitler and his aim to destroy the Jewish nation, the church being a lay down to the authorities dring WW II and today's mass genocide of innocent babies.

Bible Code is either real or it is fake ... There are so many ways to determine if a word is coded in the bible that it was mind boggleing for me at first.


The History channel and TBN and had a documentry about Bible Code, plus you can purchase the software for about $350 itself.

I know that it is complex and that most bible codes found are from typing in a name first and seeing what matrix will it uncover. In other words you can see the past, but it's hard to predict the future using bible code.

But what if "Bible Code" is real, just a simple what if and the mind has to put God higher than we had Him before.

Hitler's name is hidden in Bible code as are many names that have become important in history. George Bush's name is in bible code with the words twin daughters nearby also in the matrix.

To discuss Bible Code alone would make a nice thread. I didn't want to mess up yours Simon.

I will stick to the theory of Bible Code is from God.


I know it sounds horrible that a God, that our God, that the God of our Lord and saviour would kill all of those Jews, plus I attribute the millions of dead aborted babies to Him too, plus the churches lack of intervention in the mass murder of the Jews all makes me one strange fellow, but it is what I believe.

Does that make me hot or cold, because I know that I am not lukewarm.

If we carry out the theory of God did it ... we can not add why ... His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. Why is impossiable to come up with.

One small seed comes from St Peter himself, "the world and all of the things in the world are going to burn up"

St Peter was not a real smart fisherman, he was a simple fisherman. The only way he knew everything was going to burn up is because the Holy Spirit revealed this to him.

Look at Israel in hindsight, they are blessed, they have made the desert blossum with flowers and fruit. They have a mighty army, airforce, navy more mighty than all of the nations around them. They have a nuclear weapon and we didn't give it to them, thety built it on their own.

I believe it was all part of God's plan to bring everything to a fitting end.

That takes care of WW II right ... now what about today and all of these babies being thrown away. I agree it is horrible, but it is not against the law to kill your baby.

God is in charge of the law ... He has allowed the law to stay on the books all of these years for reason that we do not understand.

Very few chirstian women have an abortion. Abortion has replaced the wars of the 1700's, 1800's and the 1900's.

As much as I hate abortion and lukewarm religion and the fact that Hitler almost succeded in his elimation of the Jews. It leads me to trusting the Lord thy God, my Jesus in His being in charge of the church, His church and that He knows when the end of time as man knows it is coming.

Life is a series of choices ...

In hindsight the Germans are better off, the Jews are better off and the women that have had an abortion and understood their mistake by repenting and asking forgiveness of their sins even they are better off.

To be sorry for your mistakes ... you need a little help from the Holy Spirit.

Now I'll give your thread back to you, but I really think it is God's fault for having a plan and that plan has been hidden in the form of a matrix in the books that Moses wrote.

Remember God's ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not ours. Only God can see that far ahead.

Why did that many people have to die for an entire nation to be restored?

I don't know ... God alone knows, but if Hitler had not have killed one single Jew ... Where would they be today?

St John 12:24-25
Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone;
but if it dies, it produces much grain.

He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

[zaksmummy]

A question - who will look after the new mothers and babies when there born? Will the church accept them and care for them, teach them parenting skills, provide a home and money for them, care for them emotionally, give the mothers a break and be there at 3am in the morning when the baby is screaming its head off?

I know of some churches that have set up pregnancy crisis phone lines, my auntie is involved with one in South Wales and is supporting a girl with no family or partner who had her baby just after christmas. But these incidents are few and far between.

No I dont agree with abortion but if you feel that you have no alternative, what do you do.

The churches response should be Jesus' response, bring the sinners to me and take care of them as if you were me.

Catrin xx

[Simon_Templar]

It is a general rule, and generally true that society follows the church. What happens in the church is mirrored in society within two generations or so.

What occured in Germany occured because the church failed. The failure of the church was clearly recognized and indeed ultimately formed the basis for Nieitzche's philosophies, which in turn formed the bases of the cultural situation that produced the Nazi's.

Same thing is basically true in Russia. The church failed and that is what allowed the ideology of communism to take root.

We, currently are not very far behind the foot steps of Nazi germany, or communist russia. Our ideological climate is a little different, as to be expected, but the moral climate is very similar to what existed in both of those cases, not long before the respective "isms" took over.

Moral Anarchy always leads to totalitarian regimes.