It's Jewish! ???

[SonWorshipper]

I have seen it said that it is an ancient Jewish ( thereby Biblical) practice to pray to the dead, I can't find anything on this can anyone that is Jewish help me?

[simchat_torah]

Wha??????

[Pray4Isrel]

I also have heard Orthodox Jews make mention of praying for the dead...
I haven't heard Biblical examples given ye,t though and I am unsure how this became a practice to begin with.

[SonWorshipper]

Yes, I heard this from a Jewish man saying that it was a Jewish thing to do and perfectly right in its traditon to pray to dead people. He called it the communion of the saints.

[nyj]

Like the Catholic and Orthodox faiths, the Jews also rely on Tradition, rather than just Scripture alone. Praying for (and to) the Dead is a practice mentioned in the Talmud. This Jewish praying for the dead is seen in 2 Macabees 12:46, which while not considered Scripture (by non-Catholics at least) still accurately reflects Jewish history and customs.

Also, you might want to study up on the Kaddish.

During Yom Kippur, the Jews recite memorial prayers to the dead.

[SonWorshipper]

I was looking for an answer from someone that is Jewish, are you Jewish?

What has Kaddish have to do with it? This is said in rememberance not a prayer to the dead. We say this in synagogue, what's your point?

If the RCC is using this as a pattern for what they do , do they have a minyan before doing so?

[simchat_torah]

I'll get to the passage in II mac. later... but there's a difference in praying for the dead and praying to the dead.

[simchat_torah]

and sonworshipper hit the head on the nail with the Kaddish....

it is a rememberance of those who have passed on... it's not even a prayer for the dead... but rather a simple memory of those who were loved in our lives.

[nyj]

I was looking for an answer from someone that is Jewish, are you Jewish?No reason to attack me. Not everyone else who has responded to this post is Jewish, yet you weren't as rude to them as you just were to me.


What has Kaddish have to do with it? This is said in rememberance not a prayer to the dead.The Kaddish is not just a remembrance prayer, it is a source of merit for the soul. You should honestly study up on it, it's not what you think it is.

http://www.yahrzeit.org/kaddish.html

The Rabbis teach us that Kaddish is a source of merit for the soul.

[simchat_torah]

nyj,

SW wasn't attacking you. SW was merely looking for someone with first hand experience... no slight to you. ok?

Secondly, because the Kaddish might be a prayer of merit (benefits the soul) doesn't mean it is a prayer to the dead. I would go so far as to say that any prayer to G-d benefits one's soul. What's your point?

shalom,
Yafet.

[simchat_torah]

oh, and btw...

I pray the Kaddish every shabbat (that's once a week) and I'm pretty sure that SW has prayed it a good number of times. As well, I've heard a number of teachings on it, read a good deal of information concerning the prayer, etc.

So your request for us to "study up on it" is a bit misplaced.

shalom,
Yafet.

[nyj]

Secondly, because the Kaddish might be a prayer of merit (benefits the soul) doesn't mean it is a prayer to the dead. I would go so far as to say that any prayer to G-d benefits one's soul. What's your point?

I don't want to be seen as debating here, but since you asked the question, I am assuming it's ok for me to answer?

The difference between the Kaddish and "any prayer to God" is that the Jew believes that the Kaddish benefits the soul of someone who is already dead. The Kaddish is prayer FOR the dead. That those prayers actually serve a purpose (a redemptive/salvific purpose) for someone who has already passed away. Yes, that is different than prayers TO the dead, but in either case, prayers FOR/TO the dead are not a typical non-Catholic/non-Orthodox practice. From my understanding of Christianity that is not Catholic/Orthodox, once someone dies, that's that. Don't bother praying for the departed, they cannot be helped now.

In either case, the Kaddish is not merely said in remembrance, it is said for redemptive purposes for someone who has already passed from this life to the next.

I apologize if this has gotten slightly off topic, discussing prayers FOR the dead as opposed to prayers TO the dead... I saw both being mentioned before I made my comments.

Perhaps someone can ask stillsmallvoice, he is Jewish.

[simchat_torah]

My word...

have you EVER read the Kaddish???!!!?!??!?!?!?!

IT is a prayer to benefit the one who is praying. It's always best to actually go to the source of the material rather than rely upon internet sources.

*sigh*


TRANSLATION OF KADDISH

May the great Name of God be exalted and sanctified, throughout the world, which he has created according to his will. May his Kingship be established in your lifetime and in your days, and in the lifetime of the entire household of Israel, swiftly and in the near future; and say, Amen.
May his great name be blessed, forever and ever.
Blessed, praised, glorified, exalted, extolled, honored elevated and lauded be the Name of the holy one, Blessed is he- above and beyond any blessings and hymns, Praises and consolations which are uttered in the world; and say Amen. May there be abundant peace from Heaven, and life, upon us and upon all Israel; and say, Amen.

He who makes peace in his high holy places, may he bring peace upon us, and upon all Israel; and say Amen.



KADDISH TRANSLITERATION
Yis'ga'dal v'yis'kadash sh'may ra'bbo, b'olmo dee'vro chir'usay v'yamlich malchu'say, b'chayaychon uv'yomay'chon uv'chayay d'chol bais Yisroel, ba'agolo u'viz'man koriv; v'imru Omein.
Y'hay shmay rabbo m'vorach l'olam ul'olmay olmayo.
Yisborach v'yishtabach v'yispoar v'yisromam v'yismasay, v'yishador v'yis'aleh v'yisalal, shmay d'kudsho, brich hu, l'aylo min kl birchoso v'sheeroso, tush'bechoso v'nechemoso, da,ameeran b'olmo; vimru Omein.
Y'hay shlomo rabbo min sh'mayo, v'chayim alaynu v'al kol Yisroel; v'imru Omein.
Oseh sholom bimromov, hu ya'aseh sholom olaynu, v'al kol yisroel; vimru Omein.




Notice it says: May he bring peace upon *US* (not the dead).

[simchat_torah]

As you can now clearly see with your own eyes, the Kaddish is a benefitting prayer for those who pray the prayer... It is often called the "mourner's Kaddish" as those who are mourning for lost ones pray this prayer for peace in their own life. The congregation stands with those who are morning as they pray this prayer in order to support them in their time of greif.

It is NOT a prayer to the dead. It is a prayer for the living, that they may have peace in their mourning.

Please refrain from commenting on subjects you know nothing about next time. thank you,
Yafet

[nyj]

I already quoted from a Jewish website, I'll let their words stand on their own merit.

[simchat_torah]

As well, in the Siddur (prayer book used at Sabbath services) there is a section before the Kaddish which reminds the congregants that this prayer is for the living, that their souls may be lifted up in peace during their time of greif.

*sighs again*

[simchat_torah]

your quote said it benefitted the soul. YOUR WORDS were that it benefits the souls of the dead... incorrect.

[simchat_torah]

beyond that... can you read with your own eyes? or must you rely upon the internet to answer all your questions?


I've posted the Kaddish for all to see.

[nyj]

http://www.aish.com/torahportion/shalomweekly/Mishpatim_5763.asp

As one can see, there is no mention of the deceased, death or mourning. Kaddish is an affirmation of life - a recognition of the Almighty, a prayer that His greatness should be recognized and a request for peace and life for the Jewish people. Besides affirming or reassuring the mourner's belief in the Almighty, the reciting of Kaddish gives merit to the soul of the deceased because the one who recites Kaddish (the mourner) causes the congregation to praise the name of the Almighty: "May His great name be blessed for ever and ever" and "Blessed is He." There are many stories in the Talmud and the Midrash about the great benefit of this merit to the soul of the deceased in the World to Come.This is my last post on this subject. I think the above, from a Jewish source, is self-explanatory. Any further commentary from me, would be seen as debating.

[simchat_torah]

lol... too late.

none the less... it is not praying to the dead....

and beyond that, every siddur reminds the congregants that the kaddish is for the living.

The internet has often perverted the true act of study. *sigh*

[simchat_torah]

Often in traditional circles, the mourner will then recite Tehillim (psalms) after the Kaddish and then light a candle in rememberance of their loved one.

ironically, the dead are not even mentioned in the Kaddish. only the living.

[SonWorshipper]

LOL, don't mind my laugh, it just seems funny that you are telling us what the Jews believe. I have to wonder where you are getting your info?

Here is an Orthodox explanation of it should you care to see what its meaning is. To my opinon it is the Blessing of the L-rd as it is He who makes everything and takes it back, just as Job said. Also we are to bless him in all that happens in our lives, not just the good but the bad also.

http://www.ou.org/yerushalayim/kadish.htm

I think that Your understanding is coming from a tale in Talmud and nothing Biblical. Rabbi Akiva perhaps? And as far as Maccabees, those books are not considered scripture and are not included in the Tenach, or Jewish Bible.


Now I am going to assume here that there is a great difference between believing and non believing Jews. From what I know of SSV , he is a non believer in Y'shua and most of his replies are not scripturally based but rather Talmudic.

It seems funny to me that the RCC and OCC has taken out all things Jewish such as Sabbath, kosher, idol worship, etc, which are Torah, hense biblical but yet grasp at extra-biblical writings to uphold their practices. :( very hard to comprehend this.

Since the man I heard this from was a Jewish believer I would prefer to ask another Jewish believer, just to keep the playing field even.

BTW , Simchat is Jewish. :)

[SonWorshipper]

My word...

have you EVER read the Kaddish???!!!?!??!?!?!?!

IT is a prayer to benefit the one who is praying. It's always best to actually go to the source of the material rather than rely upon internet sources.

*sigh*


TRANSLATION OF KADDISH

May the great Name of God be exalted and sanctified, throughout the world, which he has created according to his will. May his Kingship be established in your lifetime and in your days, and in the lifetime of the entire household of Israel, swiftly and in the near future; and say, Amen.
May his great name be blessed, forever and ever.
Blessed, praised, glorified, exalted, extolled, honored elevated and lauded be the Name of the holy one, Blessed is he- above and beyond any blessings and hymns, Praises and consolations which are uttered in the world; and say Amen. May there be abundant peace from Heaven, and life, upon us and upon all Israel; and say, Amen.

He who makes peace in his high holy places, may he bring peace upon us, and upon all Israel; and say Amen.



KADDISH TRANSLITERATION
Yis'ga'dal v'yis'kadash sh'may ra'bbo, b'olmo dee'vro chir'usay v'yamlich malchu'say, b'chayaychon uv'yomay'chon uv'chayay d'chol bais Yisroel, ba'agolo u'viz'man koriv; v'imru Omein.
Y'hay shmay rabbo m'vorach l'olam ul'olmay olmayo.
Yisborach v'yishtabach v'yispoar v'yisromam v'yismasay, v'yishador v'yis'aleh v'yisalal, shmay d'kudsho, brich hu, l'aylo min kl birchoso v'sheeroso, tush'bechoso v'nechemoso, da,ameeran b'olmo; vimru Omein.
Y'hay shlomo rabbo min sh'mayo, v'chayim alaynu v'al kol Yisroel; v'imru Omein.
Oseh sholom bimromov, hu ya'aseh sholom olaynu, v'al kol yisroel; vimru Omein.




Notice it says: May he bring peace upon *US* (not the dead).



AMEIN!:clap:

:bow: Praise you L-rd! May your Shalom fall upon Israel soon.

[simchat_torah]

funny, I don't happen to see the dead even mentioned in the kaddish SW. ;)

Instead, I see several references to the living, and 'in your lifetime', etc.

hehe

[SonWorshipper]

Thought you might like to read this nyj, or anyone else interested in what Kaddish is.

The word Kaddish actually comes from from the Hebrew Kadosh which means Holy, sanctfied , but is actually an Aramaic word, coming from the Diaspora.

Why Do We Say Kaddish? Isn't This a Prayer For the Dead?

By Wayne (Shoval) Buse

The prayer that has come to be known as the Mourner's Kaddish is undoubtedly one of the best-known prayers of Judaism. It is a prayer of Kiddush HaShem in which the Name of G-d is sanctified. Regardless of its title, the words have no connection to death or mourning. How it became known as a prayer for the dead is a mystery. The origin of the Kaddish goes back to Second Temple times and the prayer actually appears in several different forms. These forms today are known as the mourner's, rabbinical, great, whole (or full), and half Kaddish. The Kaddish served primarily as an act of corporate worship during the Temple services. During the early synagogue period, it usually followed the rabbi's sermon. Later on in the post-Temple period, great emphasis was placed on the various forms of the Kaddish and it was used as a prayer to conclude each section of the worship service with great praise to G-d. The Kaddish is a prayer in which the name of G-d is revered and sanctified. It is a petition asking that G-d's kingdom (kingdom of heaven [G-d]) be completely established on earth and that this be done speedily so that we may personally witness it.


The opening words, "yitgadal v'yitkadash" (magnified and sanctified) are taken from Yechezk'el (Ezekiel) 38:23 where it is written, "Thus will I manifest My greatness and My holiness, and make Myself known in the sight of many nations. And they shall know that I am the L-RD." To sanctify G-d's name is to bring honor to G-d in a public way. Since a minyan (quorum) of ten constitutes a "public" in Jewish law, any act of sanctification can be recited only when this minyan is present. The principal congregational response in the Kaddish is, "May His great Name be blessed (praised with bended knee as before a king) forever and for all eternity". This response is perhaps derived from Daniel's blessing of HaShem as recorded in Daniel 2:20a, "Blessed be the name of G-d for ever and ever."

Beyond sanctification the central theme in the Kaddish is that G-d's kingship be revealed, that all the words of the comforting prophecies be realized during our own days and not in some distant millennium. This of course means that a His kingdom be established because a kingdom infers that there be a king:

May His great name be magnified and sanctified

According to His will in the world, which He created.

May He establish His kingdom in our lifetime, in our days,

and in the lifetime of all the house of Israel-speedily

and soon-and say, amayn.


It is interesting to compare the Kaddish to the words of Yeshua in Mattityahu 6:9-13. The similarity to the opening to what is commonly referred to as Tifillat HaTalmidim (The Disciples' Prayer) that Yeshua taught His followers is striking:



"Our Father in heaven,Sanctified be Your Name. May Your kingdom come. May Your will be done. . ."











There are seven words of praise used in the Kaddish. They are lauded, glorified, exalted, raised, honored, uplifted, and praised. Some have suggested that these represent the seven heavens and the idea may have merit that the Kaddish began as a mystical prayer by those who wished to ascend to Heaven. We know that the prayer originated in Second Temple times and was originally said in Aramaic. Why Aramaic? It is because the practice of the earliest Kaddish (the Rabbinical Kaddish) has its roots in Babylonian captivity. It was there that the rabbis would pray when they had finished their lecture-sermons on the Shabbat afternoon. Aramaic was the language spoken in Babylonia and our people were learning it and beginning to forget Hebrew. Perhaps the origin for mourner's reciting it comes from Job 1:20. When Job learned of the death of his children, he said, "The L-RD gives, the L-RD takes away, blessed be the Name of the L-RD." From this we learn that there is to be praise of the L-RD in every situation.



In present day practice children say the Kaddish for eleven months according to the Hebrew calendar after the death of their parents and also on the anniversary of their deaths. The Kaddish prayer, used in this way, binds the generations together in love and respect. It has been described as a sacred thread in Israel. The Kaddish makes the hearts of parents and children beat in eternal unison. The Kaddish is said standing because we are addressing the King of the Universe with this awesome petition of praise and Kiddush HaShem.

Despite the beauty of the Kaddish for mourners it is said primarily on behalf of the living. We affirm that we do wish to see the rule of our HaShem on this earth. We wait with the rest of believers, past and present, for the return of Yeshua HaMashiach. We pray for the day that the Lion of the Tribe of Yehudah takes His throne in Yerushalayim and perfect justice prevails. In that day, the L-RD will be one and His Name one. Ahmayn!

Kaddish (http://www.kehilatdvarhashem.org/Kaddish.htm)

[simchat_torah]

NYJ,



Again, the internet is but a plethora of opinions... we can find multiple contrasting views. I'll present just one here:

======================================
The Meaning of Kaddish

Having read the translation of the Kaddish Prayer, one should realize that, although Jewish Law requires that the Kaddish be recited during the first eleven months following the death of a loved one by prescribed mourners, and on each anniversary of the death (the "Yahrtzeit"), and by custom in the State of Israel by all Jews on the Tenth of Tevet ("Yom HaKaddish HaKlali'), there is no reference, no word even, about death in the prayer!

The theme of Kaddish is, rather, the Greatness of G-d, Who conducts the entire universe, and especially his most favored creature, each individual human being, with careful supervision. In this prayer, we also pray for peace - from apparently the only One Who can guarantee it - peace between nations, peace between individuals, and peace of mind.

Paradoxically, this is, in fact, the only true comfort in the case of the loss of a loved one. That is, to be able to view the passing of the beloved individual from the perspective that that person's soul was gathered in, so to speak, by the One Who had provided it in the first place.

As Beruriah, the great wife of Rabbi Meir, consoled her husband, upon the death of their two sons, with words to this effect, "A soul is comparable to an object which was given to us - to each individual, to his or her parents and loved ones, to guard and watch over for a limited time. When the time comes for the object to be returned to its rightful owner, should we not be willing to return it? With regard to our sons, let us therefore consider the matter as 'The L-rd gave, and the L-rd took back, may the Name of the L-rd be Blessed!' "
=====================================

This is taken from the Orthodox Union's website at:
http://www.ou.org/yerushalayim/kadish.htm

The Orthdox Union is the group that authorizes what goes into the Orthodox Siddur... in otherwords, it is by their Beit Din (house of law) that permits the Kaddish to go into the prayer book!

That would be going to the source, eh?

none the less...

One must always turn to original texts as time has a way of muddling things up. The Kaddish is a beautiful prayer that instills hope that HaShem rules all.

shalom,
Yafet

[SonWorshipper]

HeHe, that is the link I posted above in post 22, if that ain't orthodox, don't know what is. ;) It can be contrasted with the one I just posted which is Messianic, which also says it has nothing to do with the dead, it is a mystery. :)

[simchat_torah]

LOL... I'll be honest, I didn't click on your link... hehehe.

I did read what you put in SW, but blame me for not following the links... lol.

At least now its on the thread for all to see...hahaha

[SonWorshipper]

OK, consider yourself blamed! :D



Yafethttp://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung0903/aktion/action-smiley-064.gif

[Pray4Isrel]

sheesh, I can't keep up with the two of you ;)
By the time I check back on a thread you all are pages ahead of me :cry: :D

[SonWorshipper]

Nah, P4I we are still ONLY (;) ) on page 1, ( but just wait until tomorrow :D )

[edward]

What about these Messianics? They seem to think differently.

http://www.messianicperspectives.com/pages/BibleQuestions/bq9ans.htm

[edward]

Also, from the Jewish Encyclopedia, found here (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=7&letter=K) . The fonts did not copy correctly, but you can go to the site and find the text that I have copied below for clarity. Can someone define for me how much of the Jewish teachings Messianic Judaism follows? Where do Messianics draw the line, so to speak? Do you accept the teachings of the Kaddish as outlined below?


"The idea that a son or grandson's piety may exert a redeeming influence in behalf of a departed father or grandfather is expressed also in Sanh. 104a; Gen. R. lxiii.; Tanna debe Eliyahu R. xvii.; Tanna debe Eliyahu Zuṭa xii.; see also "Sefer Ḥasidim," ed. Wiztinetzki, No. 32. In order to redeem the soul of the parents from the torture of Gehenna which is supposed to last twelve months ('Eduy. ii. 10; R. H. 17a), the Kaddish was formerly recited by the son during the whole year (Kol Bo cxiv.). Later, this period was reduced to eleven months, as it was considered unworthy of the son to entertain such views of the demerit of his parents (Shulḥan 'Aruk, Yoreh De'ah, 376, 4, Isserles' gloss; see Jahrzeit (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=139&letter=J)). The Kaddish is recited also on the Jahrzeit. The custom of the mourners reciting the Kaddish in unison is approved by Jacob Emden, in his "Siddur," and that they should recite it together with the reader is recommended by Ẓebi Hirsch Ḥayot, in "Minḥat Ḳena'ot," vii. 1. That the daughter, where there is no son, may recite the Kaddish was decided by a contemporary of Jair Ḥayyim Bacharach, though it was not approved by the latter (Responsa, No. 123; "Leḥem ha-Panim," p. 376). A stranger, also, may recite the Kaddish for the benefit of the dead (Joseph Caro, in "Bet Yosef" to Yoreh De'ah, l.c.). For the custom in Reform congregations see (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=169&letter=R)....."

[SonWorshipper]

What about these Messianics? They seem to think differently.

http://www.messianicperspectives.com/pages/BibleQuestions/bq9ans.htmI am not familiar with this group nor do I adhere to some of the things I read at that site.

[SonWorshipper]

Also, from the Jewish Encyclopedia, found here (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=7&letter=K) . The fonts did not copy correctly, but you can go to the site and find the text that I have copied below for clarity. Can someone define for me how much of the Jewish teachings Messianic Judaism follows? Where do Messianics draw the line, so to speak? Do you accept the teachings of the Kaddish as outlined below?


"The idea that a son or grandson's piety may exert a redeeming influence in behalf of a departed father or grandfather is expressed also in Sanh. 104a; Gen. R. lxiii.; Tanna debe Eliyahu R. xvii.; Tanna debe Eliyahu Zuṭa xii.; see also "Sefer Ḥasidim," ed. Wiztinetzki, No. 32. In order to redeem the soul of the parents from the torture of Gehenna which is supposed to last twelve months ('Eduy. ii. 10; R. H. 17a), the Kaddish was formerly recited by the son during the whole year (Kol Bo cxiv.). Later, this period was reduced to eleven months, as it was considered unworthy of the son to entertain such views of the demerit of his parents (Shulḥan 'Aruk, Yoreh De'ah, 376, 4, Isserles' gloss; see Jahrzeit (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=139&letter=J)). The Kaddish is recited also on the Jahrzeit. The custom of the mourners reciting the Kaddish in unison is approved by Jacob Emden, in his "Siddur," and that they should recite it together with the reader is recommended by Ẓebi Hirsch Ḥayot, in "Minḥat Ḳena'ot," vii. 1. That the daughter, where there is no son, may recite the Kaddish was decided by a contemporary of Jair Ḥayyim Bacharach, though it was not approved by the latter (Responsa, No. 123; "Leḥem ha-Panim," p. 376). A stranger, also, may recite the Kaddish for the benefit of the dead (Joseph Caro, in "Bet Yosef" to Yoreh De'ah, l.c.). For the custom in Reform congregations see (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=169&letter=R)....."

You left out this part:

In the course of time the power of redeeming the dead from the sufferings of Gehenna came to be ascribed, by some, to the recitation of the Kaddish.

In "Otiyyot de-R. 'AKiba," a work of the geonic time, it is said, under the letter "zayin," that "at the time of the Messiah God shall sit in paradise and deliver a discourse on the new Torah before the assembly of the pious and the angelic hosts, and that at the close of the discourse Zerubbabel shall rise and recite the Kaddish with a voice reaching from one end of the world to the other; to which all mankind will respond 'Amen.' All souls of Jews and Gentiles in Gehenna will respond with 'Amen,' so that God's mercy will be awakened and He will give the keys of Gehenna to Michael and Gabriel, the archangels, saying: 'Open the gates, that a righteous nation which observeth the faith may enter' [Isa. xxvi. 2, "shomer emumim" being explained as "one that sayeth 'Amen'"]. Then the 40,000 gates of Gehenna shall open, and all the redeemed of Gehenna, the wicked ones of Israel, and the righteous of the Gentiles shall be ushered into paradise."

The following legend is later: Akiba met a spirit in the guise of a man carrying wood; the latter told Akiba that the wood was for the fire in Gehenna, in which he was burned daily in punishment for having maltreated the poor while tax-collector, and that he would be released from his awful torture if he had a son to recite the Bareku and the Kaddish before a worshiping assembly that would respond with the praise of God's name. On learning that the manhad utterly neglected his son, Akiba cared for and educated the youth, so that one day he stood in the assembly and recited the Bareku and the Kaddish and released his father from Gehenna (Masseket Kallah, ed. Coronel, pp. 4b, 19b; Isaac of Vienna, "Or Zarua'," ed. Jitomir, ii. 11; Tanna debe Eliyahu ZuKa xvii., where "R. Johanan b. Zakkai" occurs instead of "R. Akiba"; "Menorat ha-Ma'or," i. 1, 1, 1; Manasseh ben Israel, "Nishmat Kayyim," ii. 27; BaKya ben Asher, commentary on ShofeKim, at end; comp. Testament of Abraham, A. xiv.).

Again the source is Rabbi Akiva , not the Bible. G-d mercy has already been shown.:clap: Thank you L-rd!

[SonWorshipper]

Edward , did you ever come back and read this?