Orthodox Beleivers in Y'shua

[SonWorshipper]

I have a question. I have seen quite a few that fall into this catagory

1. Jewish by birth
2. Believe in Y'shua HaMoschiach
3. Continue worship in orthodox or Hasiddic Synagogue

How is this reconciled? If you believe in Messiah Y'shua but attend services where he is rejected............................? :scratch:

[simchat_torah]

where does one see the messiah more clearly?


in 'church' where his very nature (torah) is rejected? Or in synagouge where his very nature (torah) is honored?

Granted, the synagouge may not know his name, but they know him more intimately than your average goy!
Does this make sense?

[SonWorshipper]

Come on Yafet, this is the MJ forum, I certainly wasn't speaking of a church ( shutter) but a Messianic Synagogue, where He not only is recognized but uplifted and the center of our services.

I dare say you wouldn't find much of really who he was in a church :( although I have seen that many Jewish believers find something there) more than likely it is in the groups that mix ancient temple rites with pagan ones.

[simchat_torah]

I dunno....

I don't have any problem with it... Nor did the apostles in Acts. They continued to go to the synagouges and didn't create a seperate 'congregation' just for the 'believers in the messiah'. They did however hold bible studies in their own homes. But they continued to go to the synagouge.

What is the point of the synagouge anyway? We are commanded to gather as a community to:
1) Hear the Torah on the Sabbath
2) and secondarily to Worship

Does one find this in a synagouge? Abo****ely.


As well, I think that the conclusion in Acts 15 was necessary. HaShem knew that there would be a great chasm in the unity of his people if they did not follow his sound advice.
James' decision at the Beit Din:
Acts 15
"19And so my judgment is that we should stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God,20except that we should write to them and tell them to abstain from eating meat sacrificed to idols, from sexual immorality, and from consuming blood or eating the meat of strangled animals.21For these laws of Moses have been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations"

What was required of a 'saved' one? Yes, the basic and essential step as a G-d fearer (gentile who worships HaShem) is to first turn to the Noachide laws....

But then what? Is that it?

I believe that Ya'acov (James) was basically saying "Start with these steps, then you will learn the rest as you go to synagouge on the sabbath and hear the Torah."

See verse 21?
"21For these laws of Moses have been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations"

G-d knew that a division would become a chasm if we seperated ourselves from Israel/Jews and worshipped outside of the synagouge.


Again, the Apostles had no problem with worshipping in the synagouge, nor do I.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[simchat_torah]

heh, hard to do since he is torah... ;)

but what do you mean pray?

[SonWorshipper]

I guess what I am thinking about it this woman I meet that belonged to a Ultra Orthodox ( Leb) synagogue but came to belief in Y'shua but was afraid to tell anyone. She continued going there and was very confused.

It brings to mind Matthew 10

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

He goes on to explain:
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

[simchat_torah]

I would say for her it is critical that she would form relationships with other messianic believers. I would not encourage her to leave her synagouge though.

[SonWorshipper]

What about the confession before men? I don't think that meant just other believers, for what good would that be? That would be like treating your neighbor as yourself to mean only your brethern, not the Samarian's as Y'shua pointed out. Or another time when we are exorted to love our enemies, for if we only love those who love us we are no better than the heathen.

[simchat_torah]

lol, now I'm lost.

[SonWorshipper]

Gosh, I sure hope not! ;) Come back here and I will try and explain. :)

What I was saying is that she denies any belief in Messiah to her family, her friends and other congregants so then wouldn't that be what Y'shua is speaking about in Matt.10? For if we don't proclaim him before men ( have no shame in our beleif in Messiah) he will have no shame in proclaiming us to be his to the Father?

[sojeru]

in her case she MUST BE SNEAKY.
VERY STEALTH like in her dealings, but never to be afraid.
ALL SHE HAS TO DO in get into discussions with the women. She doesnt have to mention the name at all- but if her knowledge is well in Torah,Talmud and Messiah- she will know how to deal in discussion.

forexample.
She could read about
"when Joshua had ordered the Israeli men not to take pagan wives. Yet one man had disobeyed and did the such act of taking the woman into his tent and sleep with her.
Joshua has taken the spear and drove it through the tent were the woman and Israeli were commiting the act and pinned them both together in the act.

And this one act of Joshua, two wicked people being killed, drove the notion of doing this sin, and to obey joshua's words was made sure in the hearts of all israel.

How much more, would it be assured to obey G-D, to stop the sins of the people if one righteous man was killed?"

see, things like this would be awesome indeed within the speech between the women.

she shouldnt be afraid at all, but as Simchat said, she need not leave her synagogue- but join herself with other believers.
especially ones of age and in the same belief, ORTHODOX and believes. She will find much more help in that.

Not to down on messianic judaism- but most of their synagogues have a horrible mix, at least in south florida.
There is only one that is strictly orthodox, holds onto the nazarean codocil, yet have a few strange beliefs.
This is however, a true jewish synagogue.

shalom u'bracha

[sojeru]

Hi P4I

She's wondering how her friend's attending her synagogue is Biblically sound since there is a verse that says "If you deny your Father before men, your Father will deny you before all men."

there are many orthodox jews that keep quiet in the synagogue.
That doesnt mean that they DENY him in anyway.
It only means that they keep quiet.

However, if asked, "do you believe that this Y'shu/Y'shukha is Messiah?"
and then they deny, then they have a problem.
but I do know for a fact many would stand for him when asked.
so just because her friend stay silent about her faith in messiah doesnt mean that she should leave or is guilty of denying HaShem in any sence at all.
But what does her friend consider on doing after consulting HaShem and his torah/Word and prayer?
be it any decision which can be millions that she can chose from- she can stay silent, she can leave- which would be a horrible mistake for her, she can be stealth like in her dealings.
Its up to HaShem and her and the GOOD council given to her.

[simchat_torah]

there are many orthodox jews that keep quiet in the synagogue.
That doesnt mean that they DENY him in anyway


I agree...

they are merely avoiding persecution.

[SonWorshipper]

Ah, but this then brings to mind where Y'shua said ( right before telling them that he DID NOT come to destroy the law or the prophets,) to not hide your light under a bushel. Now Mashiach is the light of the world right? so wouldn't keeping quiet and not sharing the good news be the same thing?


If you are salt how can you add flavor if you stay in the shaker?

[sojeru]

Messiah is the Torah, the light-
WE MUST SHINE (in action) our light
which will lead to the such.
REMEMBER we must be sneaky and loving, Messiah said it.
who wants persecution?
NO ONE- not even messiah himself- but if and when we recieve it- then glory him.
It is not time yet to run around in the synagogues and proclaim the such.
its not yet time
I wonder if you yourself would run up in an orthodox synagogue and then have the confidence to be counted worthy for the act that you have done about trying to convert in the synagogue.
The synagogue is not meant for that at all.

The light is the acts of messiah/Torah in us.
This light is HaShem
nothing more will bring other jews to us and Messiah's way.

[iitb]

Ah, but this then brings to mind where Y'shua said ( right before telling them that he DID NOT come to destroy the law or the prophets,) to not hide your light under a bushel. Now Mashiach is the light of the world right? so wouldn't keeping quiet and not sharing the good news be the same thing?
14You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Well, light is a reoccurring theme in the Tanakh, and it is usually a metaphor for "Torah." So, if he's saying that we are to present Torah to the world, can't that be accomplished in an Orthodox Synagogue?

Honestly, I have a little trouble with the Torah/Messiah balance at times. If they are one in the same, what's the point of having both? Not that I'm rejecting either, but it's a little confusing at times...

[iitb]

Okay, this is a thread from last September that got derailed and eventually had to be closed. However, due to the fact that this is a very pertinent topic in Messianic Judaism, I'm re-opening it.

Everybody play nice. ;)

[yod]

I met a guy in Seattle last November calling himself Rabbi Cohen who attended Beit Tikveh there...

at first I thought he was our own Rabbi Cohen of Beit Tikvah (but he's in California) so I sat down and had a long talk with him. He was training in an orthodox Yeshiva in Jerusalem when the question came up of what to do when christians would say that Yeshua is the Messiah. The teacher had the bright idea of asking Ha Shem if Yeshua is indeed the Messiah....so they prayed and asked the Lord that question.

this guy is now a believer because he says that they all heard an audible voice saying "yes" to the question. They repeated it because they could not believe they were hearing the answer and again heard an audible voice. This man tells me that there are many Orthodox rabbis in Jerusalem who either believe and are quiet about it, or they know and don't want to admit that Yeshua is the Messiah.

I've tried to get Rabbi Cohen to come on here and tell his story but he hasn't joined to list yet. He makes some cool tie-on tzit-tzit that you can put on your belt loop. I'm trying to get some in neon colors.

[BenTsion]

What about the confession before men?

I believe confession before men has more to do with our acts than with wearing a
t-shirt saying 'I love Yeshua'. Remember that Mashiach said we'd be known by our
fruits. She doesn't have to rub it to other people's face. She shouldn't deny it if she
were asked, but I seriously doubt people walk around the synagogue asking each and
every person whether they believe in Yeshua or not. I do however believe it is best
if she could find a group of Messianic believers that could support her through prayer
and study so that SHE could be a light to the others who attend the Ultra Ortodox
synagogue.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[yod]

Ah, but this then brings to mind where Y'shua said ( right before telling them that he DID NOT come to destroy the law or the prophets,) to not hide your light under a bushel. Now Mashiach is the light of the world right? so wouldn't keeping quiet and not sharing the good news be the same thing?
not necessarily

...but at some point it will become impossible to deny Yeshua if real faith exists. At that time, she may be forced out of the synagogue but even that will be to the glory of her Messiah if it done because she is holding fast to the testimony of Yeshua. If she handles things with grace and love everyone will see her conviction and respect her for it. They might even ask how she is able to love those who hate her and despitefully use her. ?

Leaving her people without a word would send a very different message.

[iitb]

I'm actually considering attending a non-messianic synagogue at the moment. The group I'm involved with live about 35 miles from me, and all of the closer MJ congregations are a little too "protestant christian" for me(I'm not condemning them in any way, that's just not for me).

However, I'm curious as to how I'd be accepted. I live in a town that serves as home to 150 christian organizations, so I'm sure that the 4 synagogues here have to deal with over-zealous evangelical types on a regular basis. It wouldn't suprise me, based on those circumstances, if they weren't too open to non-jews.

At the very least, I want to visit the local Chabad-Lubavitch Center. I wouldn't mind dancing a little ;)

[Achichem]

This doesn't apply to me all that much; however, it does enough to challenge me to answer.(even though it has mainly been answered, already)

The reasons I now go to a non-messianic conservative synagogue:
-When I first went and talk to the Rabbi, to tell you the truth I pretty much thought I would be thrown out, yet when I actually explain: I am a gentile who does not want to covert, believes Yehsua as messiah (yet that the messiah will return to usher in the messianic age[with a more Jewish concept]),want to follow G-d’s commandments, how I think Yehsua worship has become idolism is many cases, and may felling on salvation, and some other topics. I was surprise to see that he actually supported me, and invited me to come every Shabbat and to become a member of the community.

Actually over all I think I was more welcomed by them then by most messianic and Christians, sure they give me a hard time now and again about Yehsua(some really harshly), and about not converting, but overall they support me, to a further extent then the messianic or Christians ever did. Hence they are fulfilling a need that just wasn’t being met anywhere else.

-We have two messianic congregations where I live, and frankly I felt quite uncomfortable at both; one they have all these as I see it, crazy mixed up traditions which interfere with the learning(1/2 Christian angelical church, ½ reformed Judaism worship[both i disagree with BTW]), and I have never much taken to any Jew calling there Shul a temple.

The second, was fine other then two things that made it unsuitable for me.The first,was they are orthodox (which can get over aggressive on me, too often) I have to slowly implement things, and I felt they put harsh pressure on me to do things before I understood them, or could properly understand their execution. Second, There was the fact that with only one rabbi and the followers just a small group; there was an extreme lack of difference of view,their one opinion fit all. Now at the conservative shul; there is lots to discuss and people always have great new insights, and I just can't grow very well in an environment with no diffrence of view.

-The teaching at the non-messianic on the torah is much more in-depth, and due to the variation in opinion and insight greater prespective is given to the understanding.

-G-d tell us in his torah to not worship any power (even that of him) above him as a whole, and too many times do I see Yehsua followers praising Yehsua (role so much), that in my option they are putting it above HaShem as a whole. Such I do not want to be part of.

There are of course some down sides to a non-messianic conservative synagogue, but over all I find it a better place to fulfill my needs, to learn about HaShem, to express myself as an individual within a context pleasing to G-d.

I do not keep silent about my belief in Yehsua, I am quick however to explain the context of that belief. So in that way I now this doesn’t really apply. And I certainly know I have an extra ordinary Jewish community where I live, I can tell because I have heard too many stories of harsh feeling towards believers.

Over all though, I plain out do like certian things about “Christian’ or for that matter “messianic” congregations(at least in my area), which drives me away:
-Putting Yehsua above HaShem as whole
-Adding distracting traditions v. traditions that help you grow
-Taking away from the torah
-Hostile to other beliefs
-Homogenous beliefs (as a congregation)

Just Messianic congregations:
-Many people adopting “being Jewish” over “being for G-d”
(it still exists in non-messianic but it is a real bother to me, and at the messianic cong. the smaller attendance makes it seem incresed)
-teaching “Jewish roots” over the torah
-One way teachings
-cliquey

I know as a whole the community is great, and I would love to come together with them, but for now it seems that is not possible.(anotehr reason why I love here so much :) )

[iitb]

Jeez, Conrad, how does a 19 year old get to be so wise?

[simchat_torah]

He makes some cool tie-on tzit-tzit that you can put on your belt loop.

uhhh... I don't think this guy is either orthodox or going through Yeshivah training.

[Talmidah]

I'm actually considering attending a non-messianic synagogue at the moment. The group I'm involved with live about 35 miles from me, and all of the closer MJ congregations are a little too "protestant christian" for me(I'm not condemning them in any way, that's just not for me).

However, I'm curious as to how I'd be accepted. I live in a town that serves as home to 150 christian organizations, so I'm sure that the 4 synagogues here have to deal with over-zealous evangelical types on a regular basis. It wouldn't suprise me, based on those circumstances, if they weren't too open to non-jews.

At the very least, I want to visit the local Chabad-Lubavitch Center. I wouldn't mind dancing a little ;)

I attend a conservative non-messianic synagogue and have had no problems at all. I would love to attend an orthodox synagogue, but there are simply none in my area and I wouldn't be able to afford to live in the area of the ones I know of.

I like where I go because I get great in-depth teaching and discussion on the Torah. I don't have to deal with whether something is done too 'churchy' or if people are 'playing Jewish'. I attended a messianic place for a while, but there were just so many distractions that the Torah kind of got lost in the shuffle.

Where I attend, the rabbi and the cantor know of my beliefs and accept me wholeheartedly. The rest of the congregation are very welcome and loving. The ladies take great pleasure in talking to me and they are delighted that I want to follow mitzvot, even though I am not "obliged" to. They often don't understand, but they never give me a hard time about it.

You could give it a try, see how you like, etc.

[simchat_torah]

Pretty much everyone and their mother who's on CF knows I attend a non-messianic synagogue as well. ;)

Wait, Justin... does your mom know or should I call her?

[iitb]

There really isn't much here, either. Two reform, one conservative(with ties to reform...and a female Rabbi :scratch: ), and a Chabad-Lubavitch center.

I emailed the Rabbi at the Chabad center to see if they offered any Hebrew classes, he asked if I was Jewish, I told him "no," and now I'm waiting for a response. I figure I'll start with a Hebrew class and go from there. :)

Pretty much everyone and their mother who's on CF knows I attend a non-messianic synagogue as well. ;)

Wait, Justin... does your mom know or should I call her?
Only if you don't tell her I'm considering a non-messianic synagogue. No reason to kill the poor lady. ;)

[Hix]

The Chabad in particular the Lubavitcher are the most welcoming of all Jewish denominations, and the most fun too. I hope you know how to do the Hora Justin?

They are famous for being very welcome, to even gentiles to join. As long as you dont mind the seperate seating from females etc, but they usually have alot of plants and stuff and its pleasent.

I attend a non MJ synagogue because I just see myself as a Jew who accepts the Jewish messiah, I do not put him before HaShem nor believe he is anything else other than what the Jewish people, and they are all right with the fact I accept Yeshua as the messiah. In fact they would be more supportive of my viewpoints than a Messianic Synagogue.
Actually last moths edition of Israel Today had an article asking why alot of Jewish believers in Yeshua attended Orthodox Shuls instead of Messianic Congregations. One man said a very interesting answer "I moved here two years ago and wanted to be part with the Jewish people, to learn with them and pray with them. Modern Messianic Judaism still takes too much from christian theology, yet all my friends in Shul know I believe Yeshua is the messiah and they dont mind."

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[sojeru]

Just know this about the Orthodox... they accept EVERYONE...but not every one can practice as a Jew...so they put attention to Jews more than they ever would a Gentile.
However, they will greatly focus on a Gentile that wishes to convert (a ger toshav)- however, for the average goy who is a Noachide- he has a place in the kingdom- however cannot Practice any Me'od (ot-sign/festival, including the sabbath) because this was given to the Jews.

well, thats Orthodoxy-- so if any of you want to observe with the Orthodox yet are not converted, this is something to think about.
Maybe think about the other branches of Judaism like the Reform, reconstructionists or the Conservative... But as long as a Noachide recognizes the authority of the rabbis their ok- says Orthodox Judaism

shalom u'Bracha

[Hix]

Thats true, gentiles are forbidden to fully keep Shabbat and some festivles, same gos for B'nei Noach. If you can find a conservative synagogue that encourages Torah observance and is closer to Orthodox than Reform then that would be good also. However a great deal of the average Goy do attend my synagogue and others for learning and are very welcome, and unlike christianity, are not under any strain to have to convert/be proselytised at! Baruch haShem!

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[iitb]

Well, it's definitely something I'd want to ease into. I'm still waiting for a response on the Hebrew class, and I'm not going to pursue this any further until I hear about that.

I'm really not sure about attending a reform Synagogue. Honestly, it strikes me as a branch of Judaism that just picks and chooses which mitzvot should be obeyed. I really don't agree with that.

[Henaynei]

Well, it's definitely something I'd want to ease into. I'm still waiting for a response on the Hebrew class, and I'm not going to pursue this any further until I hear about that.

I'm really not sure about attending a reform Synagogue. Honestly, it strikes me as a branch of Judaism that just picks and chooses which mitzvot should be obeyed. I really don't agree with that.
You de' man!! Kewl - and wisdom flowers in your gardenhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_2_122.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

[BenTsion]

I think the only real 'disadvantage' of attending a non-messianic synagogue lies on the fact that we need the support of a group of believers in Mashiach (it does make a difference, in my opinion). If one is somehow a part of a group of believers (which will support him/her through prayer and will help them to grow in their relationship with Mashiach), and attends a non-messianic synagogue, then I'd say go for it. However, I would be strongly opposed to it if the non-messianic synagogue were the ONLY religious group (either formal or casual) the person were a part of, unless we're talking about someone who's quite spiritually mature. Otherwise, they might drop their faith in Mashiach which is quite dangerous. Mind you, belivers in the first century did attend synagogues but also gathered together whenever they could.

Personally, if I hadn't found a nice MJ congregation, I'd probably attend a non-messianic synagogue on the shabbat (basically for learning from the Torah) and a presby church on Sundays (though, to be honest with you, I find it harder and harder to attend Christian churches these days - it's hard not to be critical about... well... pretty much everything they say and do... LOL)

Then again, this is all just my humble two cents. ;-)

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion