Biblical Conservatism - Questions.

[sentientmachine]

I have a few observations and questions I would like a conservative Christian to answer. First I have a few observations:

1. The bible condones slavery in Exodus 21:4
2. Contains verses that say to murder your friends and family if they say worship other god's: Deuteronomy 13:6
3. The main character, God, killed 2,270,000 people in cold blood not including, in some cases, women, children and infants. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers for the following reasons:


God may kill you for observing an object, God may or may not warn you first. (1 Samuel 6:19).
God may kill you for the sins of your distant ancestors. (Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers).
God may kill you for looking back and re-considering a sinful past experience. (Genesis 19:26),
God may kill you for "spilling your seed" males age 16-23 pay extra attention. (Genesis 38:10).
God may kill you for 'picking up sticks' on the Sabbath. (Numbers.15:32-36).So now for my question. How can the bible be considered "Conservative" when the document itself (the writer being God) advocates the most damnable form of human evil?

Why did humans have to clean up God's word in the old testament to purge out the damnable evil things god told us to do? There must be a disconnect somewhere, and I aim to reconnect! :pray::groupray::amen::bow:

[HypnoToad]

Why did humans have to clean up God's word in the old testament to purge out the damnable evil things god told us to do?
I don't think anything needs to be "cleaned up" in God's Word. There is nothing "damnable" in God's actions. Part of your problem is that you think God told US to do those things, while many of them were only told to ISRAEL to do, they are the old covenant, not the new covenant between God and Christians.

1. Yes, Scripture condones slavery. First note, though, that Scriptural slavery is a far cry from the type of slavery practiced in early American history. Most people don't distinguish between the two. The Israelites were not allowed to abuse their slaves. Abused slaves were to be set free. Their form of slavery was closer to indentured servitude than what we modernly think of as "slavery". Further, the idea that personal freedom is a "God-given right" is a myth. It is not in Scripture. It has been instilled in us by modern culture that we just accept it as true, so anything else is deemed "wrong" without much reason behind it.

2. This is one of those commands that were for Israel, under the old covenant. The new covenant doesn't give Christians the right to go kill someone who doesn't agree with them.

3. God never "murders". As the creator of all life, all life belongs to God, and He has the authority to end it when He sees fit.

[ContentInHim]

Interesting profile, sentientmachine.

[sentientmachine]

XianJedi you said:

Part of your problem is that you think God told US to do those things, while many of them were only told to ISRAEL to do, they are the old covenant, not the new covenant between God and Christians.
I think it's dishonest of you to say in the same post that God's word does not need fixing, and simultaneously telling me that Deuteronomy 13:6 no longer applies to you and me, that they apply only to Isreal. Your lying to me and lies make me sad because your saying two things that cannot both be true, your telling me Jesus came to fix God's word, yet the Bible does not need fixing. Eh. Dishonesty aside, I hear your argument that Jesus came and destroyed the "Old covenant" and threw it in the trash can as the immoral covenant that it was. But OK, I'll run with it. This however opens another can of worms. I will accept your interpretation of Deut 13:6 as accurate and I have a follow-up question.

If you were an Israelite and you were alive in Jesus's time before he started his ministry and you believed in the Old Testament and your girlfriend or wife or daughter or son came up to you and suggested you worship Other God's. Then you were disturbed and you re-read Deuteronomy 13:6, then would you kill your girlfriend/wife/daughter/son? Please answer with a YES or a NO and you can elaborate after that.

Considering you say "Yes", If you would kill your wife based on God's command to kill, then I believe the discussion is over as you are no better than the Islamic extremist blowing up the infidel with bombs strapped to their body from Iraq in order to please God. I suggest you utilize delta airlines to book the first flight to Iraq to establish residency there. Then you are free to exercise Deuteronomy 13:6. :-D

If you answer "NO". Then why did god utter this evil verse that you should decide when to kill your friends based on some idea running through your head. It seems crazy that god is telling us one minute not to murder eachother, then, like john kerry, flip flops and says "kill eachother if they don't toe the dominant religion's party line".

Whether you answer Yes or No, Christianity is set in a cultish light. Christianity's Deuteronomy 13:6 is just a brushed up version of fascism. There should be a general warning on the bible that says in bold text that the OLD testament should not be used for morality because the morality that exists in an atheistic society is far superior to God's Old testament morality. Choose your poison!

[sentientmachine]

Anyone else reading this post:

If you were an Israelite, would you kill your wife/husband/son/daughter/church member/infidel based on Deuteronomy 13:6?

If yes, then please move to Iraq.
If no, then I congratulate you on discovering the old testament is basically devoid of good morals.

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

I'm sorry sentient...but you are not a member of this forum and according to the rules of this forum are not allowed to debate here.

I would request a moderator to please close this thread.

[sentientmachine]

Censorship Means There Is Truth To Hide!

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

Censorship Means There Is Truth To Hide!
It's not censorship...it's the rules of the forum. :) Thanks for stopping by though.

[sentientmachine]

Censorship is defined as the removal and/or withholding of information from the public (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public) by a controlling group or body.

I am bringing in Good sound biblical information into this thread!

Nobody answered my question! I sure hope the forum is not banning rational inquiry into Biblical verses! Don't drink the coolaid kids!

[JimfromOhio]

I am subscribing and will post next week after my move is completed.

I would like people to think about the difference between law and grace when determining biblical conservatism. By that I mean, the difference between Old and New that they back each other up.

[sentientmachine]

I am trying to edify everybody with God's word here. I'm simply trying to get everyone to look at eachother sternly and do what god says. God says it clearly:

Deuteronomy 13:6-18 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)

Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
[NKJV at Thomas Nelson] [Thomas Nelson, Inc.]
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies.

Please Please Don't censor me for trying to get people to execute this verse. There are infidels everywhere and God hates them, we must execute Deuteronomy 13:6. The time for action is now.

The little children in daycares need to be taught the bible so that they will do this verse.

[sentientmachine]

sorry, double post.

[JimfromOhio]

sorry, double post.

I can list a long list of New Testament verses that explains that verse better after I get my home's computer get connected. Which is why I am subscribing. Until later next week. :wave:

[sentientmachine]

The new testament does not somehow "fix" Deuteronomy 13:6. Deuteronomy 13:6 is the reason why there has been 2000 years of war in the middle east. Thank you religion for causing 2000 years of war.

religion gives me ulcers.

[£amb]

Please Please Don't censor me for trying to get people to execute this verse. There are infidels everywhere and God hates them, we must execute Deuteronomy 13:6. The time for action is now.

Are you saying this is something we should be doing now? :scratch: I'm alittle confused with the message being conveyed.

:)

[sentientmachine]

I'm using a little bit of satire here. That's probably why people are so angry. No, you should not do Deuteronomy 13:6 because it contains the basic message which has caused and is continuing to cause the war in Iraq. Deuteronomy 13:6 is all the verse I need to disprove the entire bible.


I'm trying to shock you guys into figuring out that Christianity is a social phenomenon that does not have any more bearing on your life than the koran or hindu vedas.

[CyberPaladin]

P

Are you saying this is something we should be doing now? :scratch: I'm alittle confused with the message being conveyed.

:)
Lamb he is a troll who has come here to do nothing more than mock us go to his profile and read his testimony and you will see why I believe this.

[JimfromOhio]

I'm using a little bit of satire here. That's probably why people are so angry. No, you should not do Deuteronomy 13:6 because it contains the basic message which has caused and is continuing to cause the war in Iraq. Deuteronomy 13:6 is all the verse I need to disprove the entire bible.


I'm trying to shock you guys into figuring out that Christianity is a social phenomenon that does not have any more bearing on your life than the koran or hindu vedas.

One verse? I have to remind you that cult uses "one verse" to prove a point. Which is not biblical. :)

[JimfromOhio]

Lamb he is a troll who has come here to do nothing more than mock us go to his profile and read his testimony and you will see why I believe this.

Now.. that makes sense. :doh:

[£amb]

I'm using a little bit of satire here. That's probably why people are so angry. No, you should not do Deuteronomy 13:6 because it contains the basic message which has caused and is continuing to cause the war in Iraq. Deuteronomy 13:6 is all the verse I need to disprove the entire bible.


I'm trying to shock you guys into figuring out that Christianity is a social phenomenon that does not have any more bearing on your life than the koran or hindu vedas.

Ah, sorry...didn't quite catch the "satire"...:) Besides...I'm not too shocked because there's been plenty of people in the past and tons more in the future who will tell christians this as well...so you're not quite the first to do so...:)

By the way, welcome to the forums...:wave: As stated before in this thread, this area is for conservative christians to fellowship and answer question...not for debating...that's done in the Nicene area. Most likely your thread will either be shut down because of the rules that state thus or be moved somewhere else.

[£amb]

Lamb he is a troll who has come here to do nothing more than mock us go to his profile and read his testimony and you will see why I believe this.
Really wish he would do us all a favor and troll elsewhere.

Oh, I know....heehee....I've visited the Rational Responder thingy in the past so I know quite well what's there...:) I guess we weren't supposed to figure that out...;)

[sentientmachine]

JimfromOhio
I notice that you want me to "soften up" the Deut 13:6 verse which is an ugly, jagged sharp evil verse, by placing tons of fluffy pillow verses that command love and non-murder all around it so that people can't see the jagged spot. Well the presence of fluffy feel good verses do not soften God's command to kill your spouse and sons for suggesting that they do not toe the Christian party line. The bible says Kill the infidel, therefore you must do it. I am an infidel in the eyes of the Christian. Therefore Deut 13:6 is necessary and inside God's plan for your lives.

And I don't mean to mock you guys, I'm sure you guys are used to it though. Belief in the bible, I mean come on.. Young Earth, Noah's ark, Rapture, Magic, Raising the dead, bread from the sky, Jews, more magic.

The bible has all the ingredients tempting people to mock it. The bible actually has a verse to tell you to ignore the mockery because the bible attracts it so well. Kinda like a windows virus disabling the virus scanner. The virus wants to propagate itself so that it does not die, so it disables your rational mind by telling you to ignore the people mocking the errant verses.

[JimfromOhio]

JimfromOhio
I notice that you want me to "soften up" this jagged sharp verse by placing tons of fluffy pillows all around it so that people can't see the jagged spot. Well the presence of fluffy feel good verses do not soften God's command to kill your spouse and sons for suggesting that they do not toe the Christian party line.

And I don't mean to mock you guys, I'm sure you guys are used to it though because i mean camon.. Noah's ark. Revelations. Magic. It has all the ingredients tempting mockery. The bible actually has a verse to tell you to ignore it because the bible attracts it so well. Kinda like a windows virus disabling the virus scanner.

When truth speaks, there is not burdens but rather "The truth shall make you free"; that is, free from the woes, the yokes, the burdens. The burden of loving help which we are admonished to give to others: "Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2) which never harmed a soul. Another area of burden is the moral responsibility which no one can shift to another: "For each one should carry his own load" (Galatians 6:5) which is a source of comfort if our hearts are right.

[sentientmachine]

JimFromOhio, You have said something I agree with.

"You shall know the truth and The truth shall set you free". In this case the truth is going to set us free from the following:

1. The fear that god may kill us based on picking up sticks on the sabbath: Numbers 15:32-36
2. The fear that Jesus is going to send you to hell if you don't perform certain works as Jesus clarified in Matthew 25:31-46
3. The fear that God may kill you for masturbating Genesis 38:10.
4. The fear that men are going to use the bible to assemble an army to attack another country.

The truth shall set you free from all of these bonds. Jesus's yoke is very heavy. It has all of these burdens that you must worry about.

The bible is not a moral authority. It commands and instructs how to torture your slaves Exodus 21:4.
The bible contains verses if taken literally will remove the human rights of all women, (1 Timothy 2:11-15).

Your telling me Jesus's Yoke is light? I tend to disagree on account that I can observe reality with my eyeballs.

[Sophia7]

Closed for staff review.

[Jim47]

After some member discussion here we have decided to re-open this thread and move it to the debate sub forum. Have at it folks and doen't be afraid to be witnesses for Jesus. :preach:

[HypnoToad]

I think it's dishonest of you to say in the same post that God's word does not need fixing, and simultaneously telling me that Deuteronomy 13:6 no longer applies to you and me, that they apply only to Isreal. Your lying to me and lies make me sad because your saying two things that cannot both be true, your telling me Jesus came to fix God's word, yet the Bible does not need fixing.
Nonsense.

There is absolutely NOTHING "dishonest" about context. Actually, it is often dishonest when people take something OUT of context, as you have done.

The fact that Christians have one covenant, and Israel had another covenant is not "fixing" Scripture. It's context, plain and simple.

I hear your argument that Jesus came and destroyed the "Old covenant" and threw it in the trash can as the immoral covenant that it was. I made NO such argument. I NEVER said the old covenant was "immoral".

You want to accuse me of dishonesty, but then attribute non-existent statements to me?

You want to accuse me of dishonesty, but you're the non-Christian displaying a Christian icon.

If you were an Israelite and you were alive in Jesus's time before he started his ministry and you believed in the Old Testament and your girlfriend or wife or daughter or son came up to you and suggested you worship Other God's. Then you were disturbed and you re-read Deuteronomy 13:6, then would you kill your girlfriend/wife/daughter/son? Please answer with a YES or a NO and you can elaborate after that.I think the OT required that they be brought before the elders and had some type of trial before being executed, but yes, if I was an Israelite in OT times, I would follow the covenant God gave me to follow. As I already said, all life belongs to God. He has the authority to end it when He sees fit.

Considering you say "Yes", If you would kill your wife based on God's command to kill, then I believe the discussion is over as you are no better than the Islamic extremist blowing up the infidel with bombs strapped to their body from Iraq in order to please God. I suggest you utilize delta airlines to book the first flight to Iraq to establish residency there. Then you are free to exercise Deuteronomy 13:6. :-DIrrelevant, as the OT law applied to Israel, not to Christians today. But the OT Israelites WERE "better" than Islamic extremists because they followed the one true God, not a false idol.

Whether you answer Yes or No, Christianity is set in a cultish light. Christianity's Deuteronomy 13:6 is just a brushed up version of fascism. You continue to argue as though this OT law applies to Christians today. Once again, it does not.

[Izdaari]

I'm using a little bit of satire here. That's probably why people are so angry. No, you should not do Deuteronomy 13:6 because it contains the basic message which has caused and is continuing to cause the war in Iraq. Deuteronomy 13:6 is all the verse I need to disprove the entire bible.


I'm trying to shock you guys into figuring out that Christianity is a social phenomenon that does not have any more bearing on your life than the koran or hindu vedas.
By your own admission, you are a troll who is dishonestly displaying a Christian faith icon. You are in violation of the rules and of common courtesy. Go away.

[Albion]

.
So now for my question. How can the bible be considered "Conservative" when the document itself (the writer being God) advocates the most damnable form of human evil?

The Bible is not conservative and it is not liberal. It is what it is. Conservatism and Liberalism are camps into which people are gathered according to how they interpret the Bible (or other matters). The Conservative stands, at least ordinarily, with the view that has been the norm with Christianity through the years. It doesn't require any proof texts. The Liberal imposes his own interpretation upon the historic consensus. In theory, he could be right, and in theory the Conservative instead could be right.

[JimfromOhio]

JimFromOhio, You have said something I agree with.

"You shall know the truth and The truth shall set you free". In this case the truth is going to set us free from the following:

1. The fear that god may kill us based on picking up sticks on the sabbath: Numbers 15:32-36
2. The fear that Jesus is going to send you to hell if you don't perform certain works as Jesus clarified in Matthew 25:31-46
3. The fear that God may kill you for masturbating Genesis 38:10.
4. The fear that men are going to use the bible to assemble an army to attack another country.

The truth shall set you free from all of these bonds. Jesus's yoke is very heavy. It has all of these burdens that you must worry about.

The bible is not a moral authority. It commands and instructs how to torture your slaves Exodus 21:4.
The bible contains verses if taken literally will remove the human rights of all women, (1 Timothy 2:11-15).

Your telling me Jesus's Yoke is light? I tend to disagree on account that I can observe reality with my eyeballs.
The fear generated by bad theologies was a problem that people faced in Jesus’ day as today’s Christians with bad theologies.