How is everyone?

[Jim47]

Sorry I've been too busy to drop in and say hi. Hopefully that may get better now with one problem under control again, I hope. ;)

Just want to make sure that you all know my PM box is open if there are concerns here, and of course you can always get my attention by reporting posts :D

I hope to have gained your trust somewhat and I am going to ask you all a most difficult question. I've wanted to start a dialog with you concerning faith and scripture. My intent is not to flame or belittle anyone, but to do what I call witnessing and openly discussing scripture. I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack but I have studied scripture for quite a while and have a fair understanding of our salvation. I'm sure many of you know the OT much better then I do, especially the OT law.

I know what I am asking is currently against your forum specific rules. I won't feel bad if you reject my request and it won't have any bearing on my attitiude to try and serve you as a moderator.

I would like to suggest that you all discuss this as I want everyone to be comfortable with this. I know I'm asking for special privledges, I hope you understand. I love all you folks and I've actually had fair exposure to Jews before. A few years ago I had a Jewish Rabbi internet friend, and for over a year we discussed openly with very friendly terms about matters of faith, his beliefs and mine.

If you have a consensus of trying this, and I would like to suggest that it be only a trial until proven that all are comfortable with me and please let me know. This would help me as I need another outlet for thsi rather stressful job I have. (This past couple weeks has been most trying :sigh: _

You can use this thread to discuss this or start another. By all means if you are willing to try this please make some ground rules for me to go by as I need to know what you would allow and what would be off limits. I would like to add that I have no intention of starting or taking part in any heated debates. I would just like to be able to discuss scripture and faith with you all openly and friendly.

Thanks for any consideration. :)

[Henaynei]

Shalom Jim,

you'll find this forum is relatively very quiet on Shabbat :)

[Jim47]

Shalom Jim,

you'll find this forum is relatively very quiet on Shabbat :)


Thanks, but can you deciper? ;)

I'm still trying to learn all your Jewish terms and how to interpret them so I'm not real sure what you said. Is that an affirmative invite from you? :)

Of course I want to hear from as many of you as I can. I have no intention of making a nuisance of myself, well, maybe a litte bit of one ;) of course I will use the back door when so directed :hug:

[Henaynei]

Sure :)

Friday sundown to one hour after Saturday sundown is the Sabbath, aka Shabbat in Hebrew, that G-d appointed in scripture. Most of the folk here have some sort of observance of this say that entails going to services, meeting with family, studying scripture and/or refraining from the Internet. There are a few who do not have access to fellowship on Shabbat and thus come in here a bit on this day - but even among those posting and dissension are kept to a minimum :)

Does that help??

I might suggest that when you have a moment you peruse our FAQ in the stickies. There you will find a library of explanations and information that will help you feel more comfortable with this unique forum :) ;) Messianic Judaism INFORMATION CENTRAL! FAQ's- LINKS (http://www.christianforums.com/t3958909-messianic-judaism-information-central-faqs-links.html)

b'Shalom (in peace)
Henaynei

[Ivy]

What was the difficult question you were asking? I got lost. :scratch:

btw, thanks for helping out here! :wave:

[Jim47]

What was the difficult question you were asking? I got lost. :scratch:

btw, thanks for helping out here! :wave:


Umm, can I discuss scripture with you? :)

[Ivy]

My "fwendly ad-wice" would be to state what passage you want to discuss & see what the others say when they get back from Shabbat.

I'm just the friendly goy hanger-on around here :D :D

[Henaynei]

I'd be willing to try the discussion with you Jim, as long as the witnessing you are doing is not an attempt to disuade or disprove Messianic faith.... but I doubt that is what you meant....

but then I'm somewhat of a guest here myself and have no standing to speak for the majority voice :)

[christianmomof3]

Hi Jim, it is nice that you want to discuss scripture and share viewpoints on it. I kind of thought that was the purpose of CF and I really have learned a lot about the beliefs of some different denominations and Christian groups here.
I see that you are Lutheran. I don't know which one WELS is, but my In Laws are Lutheran and my husband was raised in the Lutheran religion.
I have been to my mother-in-law's Lutheran church with her several times.
I personally found it similar to the Reform Jewish synagogue that I attended as a child in some ways.
There was responsive reading, which we also had in synagogue, and a set schedule or script which was followed.

[Bananna]

Sorry I've been too busy to drop in and say hi. Hopefully that may get better now with one problem under control again, I hope. ;)

Just want to make sure that you all know my PM box is open if there are concerns here, and of course you can always get my attention by reporting posts :D

I hope to have gained your trust somewhat and I am going to ask you all a most difficult question. I've wanted to start a dialog with you concerning faith and scripture. My intent is not to flame or belittle anyone, but to do what I call witnessing and openly discussing scripture. I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack but I have studied scripture for quite a while and have a fair understanding of our salvation. I'm sure many of you know the OT much better then I do, especially the OT law.

I know what I am asking is currently against your forum specific rules. I won't feel bad if you reject my request and it won't have any bearing on my attitiude to try and serve you as a moderator.

I would like to suggest that you all discuss this as I want everyone to be comfortable with this. I know I'm asking for special privledges, I hope you understand. I love all you folks and I've actually had fair exposure to Jews before. A few years ago I had a Jewish Rabbi internet friend, and for over a year we discussed openly with very friendly terms about matters of faith, his beliefs and mine.

If you have a consensus of trying this, and I would like to suggest that it be only a trial until proven that all are comfortable with me and please let me know. This would help me as I need another outlet for thsi rather stressful job I have. (This past couple weeks has been most trying :sigh: _

You can use this thread to discuss this or start another. By all means if you are willing to try this please make some ground rules for me to go by as I need to know what you would allow and what would be off limits. I would like to add that I have no intention of starting or taking part in any heated debates. I would just like to be able to discuss scripture and faith with you all openly and friendly.

Thanks for any consideration. :)
I vote ask away,
All in favor say I.

In fact I wish we had discussions on scripture more than on practise. Much easier to stay on topic.

Bananna

[Jim47]

You have no idea hwo good your invites and trust make me feel. :hug: Before I get started though I would like to hear from some more members. I honestly don't want to impose on you folks forum.

As for trying to disuade you from your beliefs, no, that is not my intention. Only The Holy Spirit can do that, but it can be extremely difficult to discuss scripture and doctrine and always make it appear that this is not the case. I remember this from when I was discussing with my Jewish Rabbi friend. :)

I know we all believe in Jesus as our Savior and I believe you all also accept all of scripture both OT and NT, but there are differences.

Yes, I am WELS Lutheran, have been since I was 8 years old and very happy too. My faith to me, just as is for you, is more precious then all the gold on earth and sea. I love The Lord and all those who call on His name. I do not deserve to be His, but, because Jesus died for all sinners, I too am saved.

For those of you interested in what The WELS is I will include a link to our basic statement of faith. There is also a multitide of other reading there, but I offer this only so you know who I am. When you open up this link, you will have to chose the language you want to read it in, maybe english? Thats all I know LOL.

Have a nice night folks. :)


http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2601&collectionID=783

[Tishri1]

Ahhhh Jimmy one of my best friends in CF:hug::hug::hug: I would love that if they wouldnt mind:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[talmidim]

Hey Jim, :wave:

I am all for your participation. And I don't see it as asking for special privileges. I see it as on the job training. Welcome aboard brother!

[Henaynei]

:thumbsup:

[Jim47]

Thanks a bunch for the invitation to take part in your discussions. It won't be that much I do think it will be fun.

I guess one of the bid challanges I have in understanding is your use of the law versus your use of the gospil. I won't have much time though till tommorow night. Life is busy :)

I would also like to add for those who may not be in agreement of this that I will quietly leave when directed to do so. I will also try to form my questions and statements in a non threating manner, I think I can do that pretty good with just a little of your help. :)

[visionary]

Pick the similarities of faith to start, that will keep us all comfortable.

Do not take this the wrong way but here is one piece of advice for getting along

...Remember touching on the hot debates subjects cause contention.

Ex: In the Sunday vs Sabbath issues.... our shabbat is more precious because of our willing spirit lead sacrifices for Him ... Stay away because until you have walked in shabbat faith you will not understand and any response you give from sunday position will sound weak and full of tradition to our ears.

[ContentInHim]

I love reading scripture, discussing scripture and reading discussions of scripture! :D

[Ivy]

I guess one of the bid challanges I have in understanding is your use of the law versus your use of the gospil. I won't have much time though till tommorow night. Life is busy :)



I've been part of a Messianic congregation for the last 13 years.....and some of my understanding concerning the law goes like this:

1. Jesus did not rebuke the people of his day for keeping the Torah/law.

Rather, he rebuked some of them for neglecting the "weightier provisions" of it in favor of the lessor provisions......i.e. neglecting love & honor for parents while tithing on herbs.


2. The law is like an X-ray. It shows us where our problem/sickness lie.

But it has no more power to cure the problem than an X-ray can cure a bone fracture.

There is a resulting sense of condemnation & doom when the problem is seen but can't be resolved....but Jesus resolves this condemnation that the law(the X-ray) brought. There's where the Gospel comes in.


So there are my two cents, but I'm sure other people here have other points. :)

[Tishri1]

IVY you have got to add this to our Wiki plllllleeeeeazzzz:pray: its tooooo good to stay in a weeee lil thread:amen:I've been part of a Messianic congregation for the last 13 years.....and some of my understanding concerning the law goes like this:

1. Jesus did not rebuke the people of his day for keeping the Torah/law.

Rather, he rebuked some of them for neglecting the "weightier provisions" of it in favor of the lessor provisions......i.e. neglecting love & honor for parents while tithing on herbs.


2. The law is like an X-ray. It shows us where our problem/sickness lie.

But it has no more power to cure the problem than an X-ray can cure a bone fracture.

There is a resulting sense of condemnation & doom when the problem is seen but can't be resolved....but Jesus resolves this condemnation that the law(the X-ray) brought. There's where the Gospel comes in.


So there are my two cents, but I'm sure other people here have other points. :)

[Jim47]

Pick the similarities of faith to start, that will keep us all comfortable.

Do not take this the wrong way but here is one piece of advice for getting along

...Remember touching on the hot debates subjects cause contention.

Ex: In the Sunday vs Sabbath issues.... our shabbat is more precious because of our willing spirit lead sacrifices for Him ... Stay away because until you have walked in shabbat faith you will not understand and any response you give from sunday position will sound weak and full of tradition to our ears.


I promise to tread lightly. My intentions are not to beadger anyone here. We are all happy with our faith and belief system, and I have never seen anyone change their beliefs based on heated debate. Myself I don't like debate when its heated, and if one comes up I will probably put on my moderator hat to cool things down.

As for which day you worship versus my day being Sunday, we have this verse to safely protect us all>>
Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

[Jim47]

I've been part of a Messianic congregation for the last 13 years.....and some of my understanding concerning the law goes like this:

1. Jesus did not rebuke the people of his day for keeping the Torah/law.

Rather, he rebuked some of them for neglecting the "weightier provisions" of it in favor of the lessor provisions......i.e. neglecting love & honor for parents while tithing on herbs.


2. The law is like an X-ray. It shows us where our problem/sickness lie.

But it has no more power to cure the problem than an X-ray can cure a bone fracture.

There is a resulting sense of condemnation & doom when the problem is seen but can't be resolved....but Jesus resolves this condemnation that the law(the X-ray) brought. There's where the Gospel comes in.


So there are my two cents, but I'm sure other people here have other points. :)



A mighty important 2 cents I say :thumbsup:

The law only points out our complete inability to keep God's law and the need for a Savior. In my church we use the law as a mirror, it shows us who we are, sinners, and that our only hope is Jesus. How wonderful that God has cleansed us through His own works and not laid upon us the burden. No one would ever be saved if it were up to us.

[Jim47]

I love reading scripture, discussing scripture and reading discussions of scripture! :D



I believe thats what your user name also says :)

How woinderful that we are called God's own children :holy:

I'm feeling real at home here. Thank you all. :hug:

[Wags]

As for which day you worship versus my day being Sunday, we have this verse to safely protect us all>>
Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.


Many here undoubtedly interpret that verse VERY differently than you do.

Not to mention the word "were' is not in the greek. They are shadows of things to come, amd scripture says that "From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the Lord." (Isaiah 66:23)

[Jim47]

Many here undoubtedly interpret that verse VERY differently than you do.

Not to mention the word "were' is not in the greek. They are shadows of things to come, amd scripture says that "From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the Lord." (Isaiah 66:23)



Granted, this quote is from the NIV, my favorite. I know in many cases there are no exact interpretations of the greek and Hewbrew words, my Pastor has tole me that. He can read and write both.

[visionary]

I promise to tread lightly. My intentions are not to beadger anyone here. We are all happy with our faith and belief system, and I have never seen anyone change their beliefs based on heated debate. Myself I don't like debate when its heated, and if one comes up I will probably put on my moderator hat to cool things down.

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#0000ff]Good approach :thumbsup: :hug:

[Bananna]

Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.


This verse is actually pointed to resolve a problem. Interpretation of the word of God had led to the Jews of different sects observing slightly different days.

There are Sabbaths of Feasts and new moons and there is 'The Seventh Day Sabbath' which is not even addressed in this passage.

New moon specifically might be observed for up to three days. We have little other than the traditions to show how to keep it.

There was no variation among the Jews on how to keep the seventh day at sundown before the sun set.

(The pricipal of not judging others interpretation is sound)

My mother is a member of the WELS Lutheran. In 8th grade my kids spend one year in an excellent private WELS Lutheran school. Then back to home school.

My only trouble has been dealing with the secular holidays the observe. And I mean my problem. How to avoid observing it and not cause a scene or make my child overly uncomfortable.

They did let my son with long hair keep it long because of our vows.

I'm off topic:hug: . Love those Teachers.
bananna

[Jim47]

This verse is actually pointed to resolve a problem. Interpretation of the word of God had led to the Jews of different sects observing slightly different days.

There are Sabbaths of Feasts and new moons and there is 'The Seventh Day Sabbath' which is not even addressed in this passage.

New moon specifically might be observed for up to three days. We have little other than the traditions to show how to keep it.

There was no variation among the Jews on how to keep the seventh day at sundown before the sun set.

(The pricipal of not judging others interpretation is sound)

My mother is a member of the WELS Lutheran. In 8th grade my kids spend one year in an excellent private WELS Lutheran school. Then back to home school.

My only trouble has been dealing with the secular holidays the observe. And I mean my problem. How to avoid observing it and not cause a scene or make my child overly uncomfortable.

They did let my son with long hair keep it long because of our vows.

I'm off topic:hug: . Love those Teachers.
bananna




Hi bananna and thanks for the come back, but I don't feel I should reply. I was already asked very politely to not discuss MJ's Sabbath worship, and this actually not an important issue for me anyway.

I will say that your interpretation is different then mine, but thats all. :)


So that you all know what I would like to discuss I am going to post some of my favorite scripture here, but ask you to go first. :)



Eph 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.