MJ: Denomination or Religion?

[Kalanit]

The Non-Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism is a denomination of Christianity.

The Messianic Jews say they are NOT a denomination of Christianity (which is seen as Gentile Religion.)

I would say Messianic Judaism (the Mainstream MJism, not funky branch-off groups) is a sect that broke from (or was broken off by others) from mainline Judaism about 200 or so years after Yeshua. Through persecution from both Religious Christianity and Religious Judaism , Messianic Jews were either assimilated, killed, or went into hiding.

The Gentiles took over that particular sect, pushing out it's original members (the MJ's) and replacing precious observances and halacha with Gentile observances, holidays, and even distorted the text to create anti-semitic doctrine.

Again - the Messianic Jews were either assimilated, killed, or went into hiding.

A lot of time has passed and the Messianic Jews are resurfacing. We are not part of the Gentile Christan Religion. We are not in line with Rabbinic Judaism, due to the 'Yeshua Factor.'

If anything, the Christian denominations ought to be seen as 'denominations that broke with Messianic Judaism and went their own way.' NOT the other way around.

However - our end time view, belief in the Jewish Messiah, acceptance of the validity and grace nature of Torah, the concept of resurrection, among other things, should make it clear that Messianic Jews are still Jews. Period.

Yeshua is a point to stumble upon. In the end, either he is is or he is not the Messiah - and we will all find out at some point - probably sooner rather than later.

We have 'brothers' in both Synagogue and Church ... and they both want to stone us sometimes. That makes living as a Messianic difficult and even draining. We get just about everyone's 'persecution.'

I would request that both sides (Judaism and Christianity) have patience with the entire movement as we (the MJ movement) work things out internally. Yes, we are a mess. Any group that has the history we have is going to be a bit of a mess!

But, despite all - G-d is doing something. Both Jews and Christians can read the Bible and see what is happening in the world today and know something is going on! We both know a kingdom will be set up in Jerusalem. We know the Messiah of Israel will fight on behalf of Israel. We know there will be a time of peace on earth when Messiah reigns.

The plans of G-d extend beyond the Jewish Nation into the entire world. There will be a time all Nations will worship the True G-d. The Word of ha Shem goes out from Jerusalem and it will come back to Jerusalem.

Jews, Christians - give us some space to be who we are and see how we fit into the Plan of G-d. We don't fit into either mold like you wish we would. We are aware of that.

Yes, we have internal issues. But, Messianics, you know we have a specific role. We may not be 100% listening to G-d, we may be struggling to work out exactly who we are and what we are supposed to do, on an individual level as well as a 'movement'... But we can't let others discourage us to the point we become ineffective. We should not let others outside of the movement define who we are.

I believe definition is a good thing- I think we do need to be defined in some way. We should not let another persons' definition of who we are sway our convictions or compromise our calling. We must balance logic with revelation- reject all (doctrinally) that is opposed to Tenach & Brit Hadasha - and apply that which is beneficial from various streams of thought. I truly believe this can be done.

Oh and Shabbat Shalom

[muffler dragon]

However - our end time view, belief in the Jewish Messiah, acceptance of the validity and grace nature of Torah, the concept of resurrection, among other things, should make it clear that Messianic Jews are still Jews. Period.

May I ask: according to what halachic decision do you deem people as Jews? Are you following the standard Jewish approach or the spiritualization that many in the Christian world attempt to hold.

I would request that both sides (Judaism and Christianity) have patience with the entire movement as we (the MJ movement) work things out internally. Yes, we are a mess. Any group that has the history we have is going to be a bit of a mess!

Jews, Christians - give us some space to be who we are and see how we fit into the Plan of G-d. We don't fit into either mold like you wish we would. We are aware of that.

Are you requesting that those of us who are not Messianic to leave for a while or something of that sort? Btw, this is not a loaded question. If you feel that way; then it is fine by me. :thumbsup:

[Henaynei]

Are you requesting that those of us who are not Messianic to leave for a while or something of that sort? Btw, this is not a loaded question. If you feel that way; then it is fine by me. :thumbsup: I don't really think that is what she is saying [I could be wrong] - what I think she is saying is that it is very hard to grow up and find out who you are when all the relatives are pinching your cheeks and elbowing you in the ribs and regaling you with their views of what you should be now, and when you grow up, based on who they think you are, who they think you think you are or who they think they are .... it is all somewhat reminiscent of that most dreaded of childhood occasions - the family reunion, when all the relatives who normally never speak to each other gather to pretend they are bosom buddies and to empress the youth with their own brand of paradigm ... truth be told the kids love them all [or almost all] and see virtue in each .... but still are driven to find their own way .... and in it they usually end up carrying the good of all sides forward into the next generation and bring honor to all sides, albeit not in the way everyone hoped or thought they would...

now if you understood all that you need to have a hearty helping of chicken soup and go to bed for at least 12 hours!! you're ill! ;)


b'Shalom
Shabbat Shalom
Henaynei

[muffler dragon]

I don't really think that is what he is saying [I could be wrong] - what I think he is saying is that it is very hard to grow up and find out who you are when all the relatives are pinching your cheeks and elbowing you in the ribs and regaling you with their views of what you should be now, and when you grow up, based on who they think you are, who they think you think you are or who they think they are .... it is all somewhat reminiscent of that most dreaded of childhood occasions - the family reunion, when all the relatives who normally never speak to each other gather to pretend they are bosom buddies and to empress the youth with their own brand of paradigm ... truth be told the kids love them all [or almost all] and see virtue in each .... but still are driven to find their own way .... and in it they usually end up carrying the good of all sides forward into the next generation and bring honor to all sides, albeit not in the way everyone hoped or thought they would...

now if you understood all that you need to have a hearty helping of chicken soup and go to bed for at least 12 hours!! you're ill! ;)


b'Shalom
Shabbat Shalom
Henaynei

Not.
At.
All.

:D

Btw, Kalanit is a lady. Notice that pink lollipop underneather her name?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"...and apply that which is beneficial from various streams of thought..."

Why ? I don't think Yhwh ever said that. (Probably just the opposite).

"But, despite all - G-d is doing something. Both Jews and Christians can read the Bible and see what is happening in the world today and know something is going on! We both know a kingdom will be set up in Jerusalem. We know the Messiah of Israel will fight on behalf of Israel. We know there will be a time of peace on earth when Messiah reigns."

Yhwh is doing according to His Plan. But according to Scripture I think most who are called Jews and Christians CANNOT KNOW -
just as if they had known, they would not have crucified the Messiah; but they did not know. And most of the population all over the earth (including those called Jews and Christians) would willingly crucify Yeshua again, just as they already willingly go along with the one world policy. . . The majority just never gets it, according to what is Written.

[visionary]

I know what you are saying... and do not let these nit pickers get to you... they are just a bunch of cheek pinching relatives.

[Henaynei]

Btw, Kalanit is a lady. Notice that pink lollipop underneather her name?oops .... I so often forget to look :blush:

[visionary]

Let us pray that MJ never becomes a religion... for then the Holy Spirit can not work all things new in us.

[Henaynei]

I used to hold to the evangelical view on religion - that all religion was bad, that all religion was man creating G-d in his own image, etc..... I no longer hold that all religion is bad. Judaism is a religion, Christianity is a religion - a system of beliefs and practices that form a foundation on which people stand as they reach up toward G-d in response to Him reaching down toward us, and a system of tools we use to translate the Divine into that which mortal man can grasp.

I think in many cases what men do in the name of a religion or using a religion as a tool for their own ends - that is the evil .... and what has given "religion" a bad rap. :) :hug:

[ContraMundum]

Like all religious activities:

It starts as a movement.

It grows into denominations.

Some denominations will end with a new religion.

This is already happening in small few cases.

[visionary]

Movement is good, cleanses the bowels.

[ContraMundum]

Yuck. A bit much. :(

[Henaynei]

;)

I'm sure she didn't mean to be offensive. I'm sure she probably meant "the bowels of compassion." ;)

1Jo 3:17 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1jo+3:17&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1jo+3:17&version=kjv&context=1&showtools=1) But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of G-d in him?

Certainly sounds like there needs to be a movement there don't you think?

Or perhaps this is what she meant:

So 5:4 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=so+5:4&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=so+5:4&version=kjv&context=1&showtools=1) My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him


:D :cool:

[A_Pioneer]

You speak of this as a new movement! It is an old sect of the Jews, the WAY, that has been taken as new!

Shalom

[Henaynei]

You speak of this as a new movement! It is an old sect of the Jews, the WAY, that has been taken as new!

ShalomOmeyn:thumbsup:

[simchat_torah]

You speak of this as a new movement! It is an old sect of the Jews, the WAY, that has been taken as new!I can see the argument and possibly find some validity in it as far as the Netzarim of the first - third centuries. However, Messianic Judaism as it was 2 thousand years ago died out a loooooong time ago. It has only recently resurfaced after the:
1) Jesus movement in the 1970's.
2) Jews for Jesus outreach (which was originally a branch from a missionary movement with the Assemblies of God denomination)
3) A few Russian Jewish Rabbis who happened to be messianic created a messianic congregation in the late 1800's.

Those three things are unrelated, but have merged together into the messianic movement we have today.

From roughly the third centure until the turn of the 20th century, there was no "Messianic Judaism"... movement, religion, or denomination.

In recent times MJ has had a plethera of Gentiles claiming (falsely) to be Jews in this very very new and modern movement and hundreds of self proclaimed Rabbis to take over as the ministers of the movement itself.

I'm not giving an opinion as to whether this is/was a good or bad thing, but simply the facts of the matter. MJ is virtually a baby, barely reaching 100 years old as a movement, and just hardly over 40 years old with any form of popularity. Even more so, the vast majority of MJ congregations are a decade or less in age.

So.... while you can say it has its origins in the first century, or even in Judaism... "Messianic Judaism" is quite younng. VERY YOUNG indeed.

-Yafet

[Kalanit]

MDragon -

My definition of who is a Jews does not fit with your definition or the definition of the Christians you are talking about.

Do I want you to leave? lol, no. But everyone, lay off- the cheeks and ribs are sore!

Love and kisses to everyone! :kiss::hug: :P

[A_Pioneer]

I can see the argument and possibly find some validity in it as far as the Netzarim of the first - third centuries. However, Messianic Judaism as it was 2 thousand years ago died out a loooooong time ago. It has only recently resurfaced after the:
1) Jesus movement in the 1970's.
2) Jews for Jesus outreach (which was originally a branch from a missionary movement with the Assemblies of God denomination)
3) A few Russian Jewish Rabbis who happened to be messianic created a messianic congregation in the late 1800's.

Those three things are unrelated, but have merged together into the messianic movement we have today.

From roughly the third centure until the turn of the 20th century, there was no "Messianic Judaism"... movement, religion, or denomination.

In recent times MJ has had a plethera of Gentiles claiming (falsely) to be Jews in this very very new and modern movement and hundreds of self proclaimed Rabbis to take over as the ministers of the movement itself.

I'm not giving an opinion as to whether this is/was a good or bad thing, but simply the facts of the matter. MJ is virtually a baby, barely reaching 100 years old as a movement, and just hardly over 40 years old with any form of popularity. Even more so, the vast majority of MJ congregations are a decade or less in age.

So.... while you can say it has its origins in the first century, or even in Judaism... "Messianic Judaism" is quite younng. VERY YOUNG indeed.

-Yafet
You may or may not be correct, we both know that Christianity has overshadowed any similance to the Way, but I have found Jews through history who have become believers and keep the commandments and that is the Way! MJAA ans so on is relatively new.
So I believe the Way has been a thread through the last 2,000yrs. Acts 24:14

Shalom

[visionary]

I do not believe that Messianics were blotted off the map for the dark ages. I believe that they may have only been a remnant but they existed inspite of persecutions, torture and death.

[simchat_torah]

You may or may not be correct, Well, no... from a historicaly standpoint, I'm pretty much spot on. We know from textual evidence that there was a sect of Messianic Jews that existed until the 3rd century. However, after being blamed for the failures of the Jewish revolt against Roman control, they pretty much dissapeared after that. This sect, known as the Netzarim, even had their own Beit Din (sanhedrin for you Greek folk). They had various Rabbis in Jerusalem and abroad. But like I said, when the Jewish revolt failed (because the messianic leaders refused to endorce Bar Kochba as a rising messiah) the Netzarim (nazarenes) were blamed for the failure to oust Rome. Without the support of the Messianics, the rest of Judaism viewed the sect as traitors and within a generation "Messianic Judaism" virtually went extinct.

Of course during the same time period Christiainty took a foothold and began spreading amongst the Gentiles.

We don't hear again of Messianic Judaism until the 13th century. In that time, we have a single text which denounces any Messianic Jews floating around Christian circles. This text says that anyone who holds to the Torah and to the Messiah is in grave heresy. But we have no textual or other historical evidence of a messianic sect in existence in Judaism.....

until....

the 1800's two (unrelated) Rabbis in Russia each come to believe "Jesus is the Messiah". Though they each were leaders of congregations, their entire congregation was not messianic per se. A number of "Messianic Believers" did convert within their congregations, but after these two Rabbis died, so did the Messianic branch that started to grow there.

Again, nothing the late 1800's and into the early 1900's. Here in the United States a new Messianic congregation was born, and they started a loosely affilited set of Messianic Congregations. Popularity was not to be found amongst the Jewish crowds, and over the years this organization slowly became what we now know as the MJAA.

However, significantly more popular was an outreach missionary group within the Assemblies of God, called Jews for Jesus (it has since branched off into its own group, now unaffiliated with AG). During the 1970's and the Jesus Movement, the Jews for Jesus group became wildly popular and has since exploded onto the scene. Many who grew beyond simple christianity have since turned to MJAA, adding to its numbers.

Over the years since the 80's, 90's, and into today a number of fringe Messianic congregations have sprang up globally, but the vast majority here in the states.

More importantly, do any of the above and previously mentioned messianic groups have any affiliation or relation to the first century Netzarim?
No.

None of them can claim direct ascendency, nor do they even come close to mirroring the Netzarim. The Netzarim held their own Beit Din. The Netzarim were a legitimate sect within Judaism. The Netzarim were populated entirely by the Jewish people (and goyim converts). Netzarim Rabbis were schooled in Jewish Yeshivot, and held their simcha from well founded schools in Judaism at the time.

Modern day Messianic Judaism does not reflect this at all. There is no relation and it is a very very modern movement, and for the most part, directly stemming from a christian missionary group.

Therefore, I propose one can not make the claim:
"You speak of this as a new movement! It is an old sect of the Jews, the WAY, that has been taken as new! "

It really has nothing to do with The Way (aka: Netzarim).

There is one group who did try to ressurect the Netzarim as it was known in the first few centuries. However, because of bold faced lies and scandals it has pretty much become a joke in the MJ community. James Trimm (and associates) attempted to create a Beit Din and call themselves the Netzarim. But as Trimm was found to be a liar (he said he was of Jewish blood, but his mother is a nice catholic woman and will tell you otherwise). Moreover, nearly every single person that was on his "Beit Din" was found to be a liar or deceptive in one way or another. To my knowledge, it has also since dissolved.

Simply saying "But but but... we are Jews who believe in the messiah, therefore we are The Way!" doesn't cut it. As a denomination (or relgion) there is very very little that reflects theologically on the first century Netzarim. I highly doubt anyone from the first century would even want to be loosely associated with the modern messianic movement, but that is purely my own opinion. What is not my opinion is that modern Messianic Judaism virtually is new in that it hasn't been around but 40 years, was birthed out of a christian missionary organization, and has nothing to do with the first century Netzarim theologically or by the way it functions.

but I have found Jews through history who have become believers and keep the commandments and that is the Way!Other than the messianic leaders in the 1800's and then the first true messianic organization in the early 1900's, there are virtually no Jewish Messianics throughout history. Even more so, just because they were believers does not mean they were part of the sect of Judaism known as "The Way". The Way (aka: The Netzarim) had a beit din, specific theology that surrounded it, and Jewish trained leadership. None of that has existed since the first three centuries.

Nor does it exist today.

[simchat_torah]

Whether you want to claim the modern day Messianic movement is legit, that is another discussion all together. One I probably won't comment on as I want to respect the members of this forum.

However, historically it can be said that what we have today is entirely unrelated to the Netzarim of the first few centuries. That, ladies and gentlemen, I feel comfortable discussing here.

[simchat_torah]

I do not believe that Messianics were blotted off the map for the dark ages. I believe that they may have only been a remnant but they existed inspite of persecutions, torture and death.If you believe this, then you believe despite historical evidence. Nothing in history will reinforce what you just proclaimed to believe.

[ContraMundum]

Other than the messianic leaders in the 1800's and then the first true messianic organization in the early 1900's, there are virtually no Jewish Messianics throughout history. Even more so, just because they were believers does not mean they were part of the sect of Judaism known as "The Way". The Way (aka: The Netzarim) had a beit din, specific theology that surrounded it, and Jewish trained leadership. None of that has existed since the first three centuries.

Nor does it exist today.

Very true indeed.

What's more is that the modern-day version of Messianic Judaism has basically nothing in common of any note with Orthodox Judiasm. In fact, it has more in common with the Karaite sect of Judaism and the modern pentecostal movement.

It inherited its rejection of oral tradition and the authority of the ancient church from fundamentalist protestantism, its emphasis on signs and wonders and prophecy from the pentecostals and the vast majority of its theology from both those camps.

In fact, on closer investigation, it is Oriental Orthodox Christianity that has the theology and praxis that is the most like ancient Orthodox Judaism currently around. Interestingly, we can see the foundation of that Church movement not in the 1960s, but in the first Century. And in case you're wondering, I am willing to go into depth (maybe on a blog or something) about that.

There is no historical evidence for a hidden pilgrim church of Messianics who rejected oral tradition, spoke in tongues, held to personal interpretion of scripture and that was led by libertarians who rejected all church authority at any point in history. It's a myth.

Being a Jewish convert to Christianity throughout history took many forms and paths- not just the path of Americanized fundamentalism. Not that there is anything wrong with that- if someone believes that, based on their informed conscience, then so be it- maybe they are right.

[A_Pioneer]

simchat_torah has taken on the simalance of God,
he is all knowing, he has all the evidence and that's a fact!
I'm done, any more we would strive for words.

Shalom

[ContraMundum]

simchat_torah has taken on the simalance of God,
he is all knowing, he has all the evidence and that's a fact!
I'm done, any more we would strive for words.

Shalom

He's taken the time and effort to research. He's done the hard work. Nothing wrong with that, I say.

I respect his efforts.

[ChazakEmunah]

simchat_torah has taken on the simalance of God,
he is all knowing, he has all the evidence and that's a fact!
I'm done, any more we would strive for words.

Shalom
Relax my friend. What Simchat_Torah is saying is largely true. There is no historical evidence for a continual sect of Netzarim throughout history. If they had survived until today, I would imagine that they would be a mix between Breslov Hasidism and Chabad Hasidism. There is a sect besides the Trimm group that calls themselves Netzarim, has a legitimate Beit Din, and lives as Orthodox Jews in Ra'anah Israel. They are the only legitimate Netzarim in existence today. If one wishes to join them, they must take classes through their Chavruta, and then petition the Beit Din for recognition. I think I've given you the link already, but I can always shoot you a PM with it again if you'd like.

[ChazakEmunah]

Very true indeed.

What's more is that the modern-day version of Messianic Judaism has basically nothing in common of any note with Orthodox Judiasm. In fact, it has more in common with the Karaite sect of Judaism and the modern pentecostal movement.

It inherited its rejection of oral tradition and the authority of the ancient church from fundamentalist protestantism, its emphasis on signs and wonders and prophecy from the pentecostals and the vast majority of its theology from both those camps.

In fact, on closer investigation, it is Oriental Orthodox Christianity that has the theology and praxis that is the most like ancient Orthodox Judaism currently around. Interestingly, we can see the foundation of that Church movement not in the 1960s, but in the first Century. And in case you're wondering, I am willing to go into depth (maybe on a blog or something) about that.

There is no historical evidence for a hidden pilgrim church of Messianics who rejected oral tradition, spoke in tongues, held to personal interpretion of scripture and that was led by libertarians who rejected all church authority at any point in history. It's a myth.

Being a Jewish convert to Christianity throughout history took many forms and paths- not just the path of Americanized fundamentalism. Not that there is anything wrong with that- if someone believes that, based on their informed conscience, then so be it- maybe they are right.
I really think that you are spot on in your assessment Contra. There is such a distaste for the Oral Torah among the members of the movement that they've largely adopted a Karaitic pov.

[ChazakEmunah]

There is one group who did try to ressurect the Netzarim as it was known in the first few centuries. However, because of bold faced lies and scandals it has pretty much become a joke in the MJ community. James Trimm (and associates) attempted to create a Beit Din and call themselves the Netzarim. But as Trimm was found to be a liar (he said he was of Jewish blood, but his mother is a nice catholic woman and will tell you otherwise). Moreover, nearly every single person that was on his "Beit Din" was found to be a liar or deceptive in one way or another. To my knowledge, it has also since dissolved.
There are more problems with James Trimm's group than I could shake a stick at. I'm sure many here are aware of the "Bibles" problems associated with this group. As a former insider (I left after I saw what went on behind the scenes) I can assure everyone that this group is not deserving of legitimacy in any way. Well... that's all I have to say about that.

[simchat_torah]

simchat_torah has taken on the simalance of God,
he is all knowing, he has all the evidence and that's a fact!Its called simple historical research my friend. I WELL DOCUMENTED the history of messianic Judaism previously on this forum when I was a messianic back in the day. Everything I stated in this thread has been backed up by source material elsewhere, I'm just too lazy and don't care to do it all over again.
I'm done, any more we would strive for words.
Why must everything be "personal" with you? Can't we purely discuss history without it coming to a matter of insults?

If you have issues with the history of the movement, you had better examine the movement you're in... not me, the messenger.

[simchat_torah]

If you have contentions with what I stated as hitorical fact, by all means...

prove me wrong.

Otherwise, let's leave the personal insults aside, eh?

[simchat_torah]

There were actually a few members at one time here on this forum that claimed to be messianic karaites. At first, it seemed goofy to me, but the more I thought about it, the more it fit the MJ movement as a whole. The complete rejection of prior Rabbinical thought and well established doctrine fit MJ hand in glove.

Funny thing about Karaites though...
They reject Halacha, yet create their own.

[debi b]

Funny thing about Karaites though...
They reject Halacha, yet create their own.


That is true of most groups - just try to get someone to celebrate Christmas in November, move a Sunday service to Monday....:D

[muffler dragon]

MDragon -

My definition of who is a Jews does not fit with your definition or the definition of the Christians you are talking about.

Okay.

Do I want you to leave? lol, no. But everyone, lay off- the cheeks and ribs are sore!

Will do. :thumbsup:

[visionary]

How close, and what criteria is MJ defined throughout the centuries? for we know the name is relative... to the group... country and century.

Keep shabbat, be kosher, and keep the feasts... close enough to be similar...???

[visionary]

The following report is found in a work written by Gregorius, of Bergamo, about A.D. 1250, against the Cathari and Pasaginians:--

“After what has been said of the Cathari, there still remains the sect of the pasagini. They teach Christ to be the first and pure creature; that the Old Testament festivals are to be observed-- circumcision, distinction of foods, and in nearly all other matters, save the sacrifices, the Old Testament is to be observed as literally as the New-- circumcision is to be kept according to the letter. They say that no good person before the advent of Christ descended into the lower regions; and that there is no one in the lower regions and in paradise until now, nor will there be until sentence has been rendered on the day of Judgement.” Collectio Rev. Occitan in the Royal Library of Paris, doc. 35, quoted in Dollinger’s History of the Sects, vol. 2, p. 375
Neander expresses himself as follows:


“Among the sects of Oriental origin belongs, perhaps besides those already mentioned, the Pasagii or Pasagini.” “The name of this sect reminds one of the word passagium (passage), which signifies a tour, and was very commonly employed to denote pilgrimages to the East. To the holy sepulcher, --crusades. May not this word, then, be regarded as an index, pointing to the origin of the sect as one that came from the East, intimating that it grew out of the intercourse with Palestine? May we not suppose that from very ancient times a party of Judaizing Christians had survived, of which this sect must be regarded as an offshoot? The way in which they expressed themselves concerning Christ as being the first-born of creation, would point also, more directly, at the connection of their doctrine with some older Jewish theology, than at that later purely Western origin.”Chruch History, fifth period, 8, pp. 403,404

Athenians (“touch not”) because they abstained from things unclean and from intoxicating drinks,-- the translator of Neander styles them Athinginians, -- as the following shows:

“This sect, which had its principal seat in the city of Armorion, in upper Phrygia, where many Jews resided sprung out of a mixture of Judaism and Christianity. They united baptism with the observance of all the rites of Judaism, circumcision excepted. We may perhaps recognize a branch of the older Judaizing sects.” Neander, fourth period, 6, 428

Cardinal Hergenrother says that they stood in intimate relation with Emperor Michael II (A.D. 821-829), and testifies that they observed the Sabbath. Kirchengeschichte, I, 527

The papal bulss, especially those of Gregory I, and Gregory VII, and Nicolas I, are our chief source of information concerning the Pasagini. Aside from these, we have but two leading notices in Catholic histories of heretics. One is found in the writings of Bonacursus against the heretics, entitled “Against the Heretics, Who are Called Pasagii.” Its contents are as follows”--

“Not a few, but many know what are the errors of those who are called Pasagini, and how nefarious their belief and doctrine are. But because there are some who do not know them, it does not annoy me to write what I think of them, partly from precaution and for their salvation, and partly for their shame and confusion, in order that their foolishness might become more widely known, and that they might be the more condemned and despised of all. As we ought to know the good in order to do it, so likewise should we know the evil that we might shun it.

“Let those who are not yet acquainted with them, please note how perverse their belief and doctrine are. First, they teach that we should obey the law of Moses according to the letter-- the Sabbath, and circumcision, and the legal precepts still being in force. The also teach that Christ, the Son of god, is not equal with God, and that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit-- these three persons are not one God and on being. Furthermore, to increase their error, they condemn and reject all the church Fathers, and the whole Roman church. But because they seek to base their errors upon the witness of the New Testament and the prophets, let us slay them with their own sword by the aid of the grace of Christ, as David once slew Goliath.” D’Achery, Spicilegium I, f. 211-214. Muratory, Antiq. Med. Aevi 5, f. 152. Hanh, 3, 209

[FrenchAffair]

To an outsider, it appears as a distinct religion drawing from both Jewish and Christian sources. Much like Bahá'í.

[visionary]

Yeah... something like that in being distinct.

[simchat_torah]

That passage is only one of two in the 13th century regarding this "heretical sect". Between the first few centuries, and these vague references by Christian authorites (regarding these heretics who hold to both the "Messiah and the Law") there's nothing. Even this group that was vaguely referred to in the 13th century has never been identified, nor have any of their writings persisted through the years. All we have are the two references labeling them heretics.

[zaksmummy]

I would like to say thank you to you all. My husband and I are on a quest to find the basis of our christian faith, how would we do this if there were no Messianic Jews to show us how our faith should be practiced?

Yes I agree there are many people, christians and Jews who do not agree with the messianic view point, but I truly believe that as God is working amongst the Jewish people, He is also working amoungst the Genile church convicting them and showing them that much of what we hold to is tradition rather than the true nature of who Jesus was (person, culture and all).

To me it is the MJ's who will lead the way for both faiths. So please dont stop just being who you are, and God bless you as you have blest me.

Catrin xx

[visionary]

Since all heretic writings are consigned to the burn pile... Yeah it is difficult to have any references to the believers of a faith similar to our, as they were burned at the stake, tortured, and persecuted where ever they were. That is why it is known as dark ages.

Reiner says that he met a simple, unlearned farmer who could repeat the whole book of Job word for word, and this knowledge of the Scriptures is what gave them the patience of Job in all their terrible persecutions. He found several that knew the entire New Testament by heart. Contra Waldenses in Max. Bibl., 25, f, 263


Dr. Hahn says of their propaganda and success

“The spread of heresy at this time is almost incredible. From Bulgaria to the Ebro, from northern France to the Tiber, everywhere we meet them. Whole countries are infested, like Hungary and southern France; they abound in many other countries. In the rest of France we find them in Armoria, Paris, Orleans, Rheims, Gascogne, etc.; in Germany, in Goslar, Cologne, Treves, Metz, Strassbourg; In Italy, at Verona, Bolgna, Florence, Milan Placentia, Viterbo, Faenza, Treviso, Bergamo, Mantua, Ferrara, etc., yea, even in the papal dominions; in the Netherlands at Arras, Cambray, etc. Edicts are necessary against them in Catalonia and Aragonia, and even in England they put forth their efforts. Gessch, der Ketzer, I, 13,14

Wherever the popes could do so, they forced promises from princes to aid them in the extinction of the heretics, as, for example, when Emperor Frederic II was crowned by Pope Honorius (A.D.1220). Hefele says.

“But Frederic proclaimed on the day of his coronation, these laws demanded by the pope:….
5. We condemn to perpetual infamy and put under ban the Puritans, Paterines, Speronists, Leoinsts, Arnoldists, Circumcised, and all other heretics, and ordain that their goods be confiscated.
6. All magistrates are bound under oath to drive out the heretics. Conciliengeschichte 5, 915

In the same year the council of Toulouse was held, where a number of canons were passed concerning the extinction of heretics. ....samples...

”Canon 3,-- The lords of the different districts shall have the villas, houses, and woods diligently searched, and the hiding places of the heretics destroyed.
“Canon 4.-- If any one allows a heretic to remain in his territory, he loses his possession forever, and his body is in the hands of the magistrates to receive due punishment.
“Canon 5-- But also such are liable to the law, whose territory has been made the frequent hiding-place of heretics, not by his knowledge, but by his negligence.
“Canon 6-- The house in which a heretic is found, shall be torn down, and the place or land be confiscated.
“Canon 14-- Lay members are not allowed to possess the books of either the Old or the New Testaments.” Hefele 5, 981, 982

Somewhere is not just gentile believers... but they were considered heretics because they believe similarly in style as MJ do.

In the year A.D. 1243, Frederic issued another decree, which thus begins;--

“We condemn to perpetual infamy the Puritans, Paterines, Speronists, Leonists, Arnaldists, Circumcised, Pasagines, Josephines, Garatensiands, Albanensians, Francisks, Bagnorols, Comists, Waldensians, etc Hefele 1, 509


About seventy thousand Nestorians still live in the mountainous border region between Turkey and Persia. They call themselves Nasrani (Christians), Suriani or Syrians, Mesihaye or followers of the Messiah

Hauck-Herzog writes

“Very numerous are their fasts. The use of meat is forbidden during one hundred fifty tow days in the year. They shun pork. The Sabbath is to them a weekly festival, as well as Sunday. They have no auricular confession; they know nothing of a purgatory. Their priests are allowed to marry.” Realencyklopaedie, 13, 734, article, “Nestorianer

Thomas was said to have gone to India, and there is some record of a believing people there, and of course it is catholic documentation.

“The Inquisition was set up at Goa in the Indies, at the instance of Francis Xaverius [a famous roman saint], who signified by letters to pope John III, Nov. 10 1545, ‘that the Jewish wickedness spreads more and more in the parts of the East Indies subject to the kingdom of Portugal, and therefore he earnestly besought the said king, that to cure so great an evil he would take care to send the office of the Inquisition into those countries.’”Yeates, “East Indian Church Hist. Pp. 133, 134

India inquisition..
the synod at Diamper (A.D. 1599), presided over by the Roman archbishop, Menezes: --

Canon 15 -- To assure conformity of ceremonies, the synod forbids all believers to eat meat on Saturday, or else they make themselves liable to the penalty for mortal sins.
Canon 16 -- The feast- and fast-days shall commence and cease at midnight, for the eve to eve custom was Jewish.” La Croze, Abbildung des ind. Christenst., p. 354, Leipzig, 1739

Yeah, I know it is really said that persecutions were so bad, that they are the only documents of the believers existence, just before expulsions, torture, murder, and executions.

[GerTzedek]

Messianic Judaism is an awakening of yeshua-believing Jews in response to the rebirth of Israel. It has been fostered by the Church in response to the horror of the Shoah.

One can trace a direction of MOVEMENT of Messianic Judaism from its beginnings within evangelical Christianity, OUT of the church, and currently finding its own as a JUDAISM. It is a good a right correction of the historical wrong of supersesssionism, which was one of the things which suppressed the assemblies of believers which were predominantly Jewish and which met within the Jewish community.

Messianic Judiasm has many congregations still clinging to its past, still largely gentile (and PROTESTANT) churches. But it has a growing number of truly Jewish synagogues which are not churches at all. With its departure from protestantism and into Judaism, it has also taken a broader look at the Christian world, and begun to form alliances with the Catholic Church, finding the Catholic church very supportive and by its nature far more culturally similar to Judaism. These new Messianic JEWISH synagogues seek Torah observance and Jewish unity, and work to form alliances with Jewish outreach programs in their communities.

In summary, it was ONCE a Christian denomination, aka Baptist, Methodist, Messianic. NOW it is a Jewiish denomination, aka Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Messianic.

I'm a very poor spokes-peron for this. If you REALLY want to study what's happening on the front lines, my suggestion is to read Mark Kinzer's book, "Post-Missionary Messianic Judaism."

[GerTzedek]

To an outsider, it appears as a distinct religion drawing from both Jewish and Christian sources. Much like Bahá'í.
Do you recall Rav Shaul's metaphor of the graft? How gentile believers are grafted onto Israel in order to be heirs to the promises? Think of Messianic Jews as the exact point of that graft; part of Israel, and part of Ekklesia, they are the necessary link that makes it all work.

[Henaynei]

thank you for the heads up - it sounds potentially like a worthy read :)

[ChavaK]

In summary, it was ONCE a Christian denomination, aka Baptist, Methodist, Messianic. NOW it is a Jewiish denomination, aka Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Messianic.


Gotta disagree with you....Jews do not accept
MJ as a Jewish denomination. To claim it as
such may be seem as legitimate from a Christian
viewpoint, but not from a Jewish one.

:wave:

[philmwri]

Well i have to agree with Chava Messianic Judaism is definitely not considered a jewish movement.Some of the followers of messianic judaism may be jewish but the pratices and beleifs of messianic judaism aren't very similar to that of jewish denominations.

[christianmomof3]

Gotta disagree with you....Jews do not accept
MJ as a Jewish denomination. To claim it as
such may be seem as legitimate from a Christian
viewpoint, but not from a Jewish one.

:wave:

Well i have to agree with Chava Messianic Judaism is definitely not considered a jewish movement.Some of the followers of messianic judaism may be jewish but the pratices and beleifs of messianic judaism aren't very similar to that of jewish denominations.
I agree. Messianic Judaism is not Jewish, nor is it accepted as such by the Jewish religion.

[GerTzedek]

Gotta disagree with you....Jews do not accept
MJ as a Jewish denomination. Yet. There have been significant changes in attitudes with many mainstream Rabbis, including some in the Orthodox community.

We are sitting on the threshold of something that is... happening. You can disagree with it. But don't make the mistake of underestimating it. With the rebirth of Israel, tremendous changes have happened, and this is one of them. Its like a tidal wave on the horizon. It would be a mistake to ignore the receding waters.

[GerTzedek]

I agree. Messianic Judaism is not Jewish, nor is it accepted as such by the Jewish religion.
A small quote from the Hashivenu site:

Core Value #1


Messianic Judaism is a Judaism and not a cosmetically altered "Jewish style" version of what is extant in the wider Christian community.

This was the great leap which was taken when we changed our self-designation from "Hebrew-Christian" or "Jewish-Christian" to "Messianic Jew." We were saying that we no longer saw ourselves as Christians-Presbyterians, Baptists, Episcopalians, Pentecostals, etc.-who happened to come from Jewish ethnic backgrounds. Instead, being "Jewish" is, for us, a fundamental religious category. We are those who by birth share in the covenant G-d made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and whose ancestors pledged themselves and their descendants to a particular way of life with G-d at Sinai. Having been born into the covenant, we have also come to recognize Messiah Yeshua as the One sent by G-d to bring the covenant to its appointed goal.

We expressed this reality by switching our worship day from Sunday to Saturday, by celebrating the biblical feasts, by adopting traditional Jewish religious terminology (such as "rabbi" and "synagogue") and traditional Jewish religious customs (such as wearing tallit and kippot, having Torah services, and reciting the Shema), by employing selected Hebrew prayers in our services, by singing in a minor key and dancing Israeli dances. All of this was positive and good, though for the most part, superficial. The surface structure is the easiest to change. Of more importance is the deep structure, and this level has proved more intransigent.

The deep structure of religious life consists of the rooted patterns of thought, speech, action and identification reflected in our daily lives as individuals, families, and congregations. How do we think and talk about G-d, about His involvement with the world and with Israel? What is the actual texture of our daily and weekly religious practice? How is our sense of connection with the Jewish people as a whole expressed?

Too often the deep structure of Messianic Jewish religious life is indistinguishable from that of popular evangelicalism and bears little or no resemblance to any form of Judaism, past or present. When the world is easily divided into the classes of "saved" and "unsaved," when our speech is peppered with casual references to "what G-d just did" and "what G-d just said," when our exclusive mode of prayer is conversational and begins "Father G-d" and ends "in the precious name of Yeshua," when our kids go to Christian schools because the public schools are filled with "satanic influences," when speculation about the end-times is more natural to us than reciting a berachah -- then we know that the deep structure of our religious life is Hebrew Christian and has been untouched by the drastic changes in the surface structure of our movement.

We in Hashivenu believe that the radical innovation initiated in the 70's with the birth of "Messianic Judaism" -- founded on first century precedent but radically "new," nevertheless -- has not yet been brought to its logical conclusion. The deep structure must now be transformed.

When we say that Messianic Judaism is "a Judaism," we are also acknowledging the existence of other "Judaisms." We do not deny their existence, their legitimacy, or their value. We are not the sole valid expression of Judaism with all else a counterfeit. We recognize our kinship with other Judaisms and believe that we have much of profound importance to learn from them, as well as something vitally important to share with them.

[RebbeCohen]

you put it so eloquently, I dont think i could to a better job.

[RebbeCohen]

[quote=Kalanit;37338048]The Non-Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism is a denomination of Christianity.

Messianic Judaism is a Sect of Judaism just as it was in the beginning. It has remained so and will continue to remain so. Whether our non believing brothers and sisters agree is pretty much irrlevant.

[ChavaK]

Yet. There have been significant changes in attitudes with many mainstream Rabbis, including some in the Orthodox community.


I doubt there will ever be acceptance.
I once met an "Orthodox Rabbi" who didn't
see a problem with eating eggs cooked on
a hot plate bacon had just been cooked on,
didn't believe in the Exodus, and knew less
about Judaism than I do. There is a lunatic
fringe in every movement. Even the most
liberal of Jews I have met do not accept
MJ as an acceptable movement within
Judaism


We are sitting on the threshold of something that is... happening. You can disagree with it. But don't make the mistake of underestimating it. With the rebirth of Israel, tremendous changes have happened, and this is one of them. Its like a tidal wave on the horizon. It would be a mistake to ignore the receding waters.

MJ may be a change, but it is a change for Christians
not Jews. So few of those involved in the MJ movement
are Jews....I would be more interested in knowing
why so many gentiles are now getting involved in an
expression (albeit an illegitimate expression) of
Judaism, than Jews are.:wave:

[ChavaK]

A small quote from the Hashivenu site:

Gee, a Messianic website making claims about how
MJ is a "real" Judaism.
Now that's going to convince us that it is.....;)

[ChavaK]

[quote=Kalanit;37338048]The Non-Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism is a denomination of Christianity.

Messianic Judaism is a Sect of Judaism just as it was in the beginning. It has remained so and will continue to remain so. Whether our non believing brothers and sisters agree is pretty much irrlevant.

It's not so irrelevant when many in the MJ
movement want so desperatately to be accepted
as a legitimate form of Judaism...
It is full of Christian beliefs and gentiles...so I
would hardly say it has been and remains a
sect of Judaism. Jews that were involved
with it through the ages were properly
known as "Christians"...and generaly
identified as such. The MJ movement
is a recent missionary invention...where
is the long history of messianic rabbis,
shuls, yeshivot....
I am not belittling gentiles or their beliefs...
just the statement that it is a part of
Judaism....
:wave:

[visionary]

MJ may be a change, but it is a change for Christians
not Jews. So few of those involved in the MJ movement
are Jews....I would be more interested in knowing
why so many gentiles are now getting involved in an
expression (albeit an illegitimate expression) of
Judaism, than Jews are.I am a gentile and the reason I am getting involved is because God called me here.

[Ivy]

If you REALLY want to study what's happening on the front lines, my suggestion is to read Mark Kinzer's book, "Post-Missionary Messianic Judaism."

I have read this book, and it is excellent. It has informed quite a lot of my own views.

And no, you guys, Ger Tzedek is not my sock ^_^ ^_^ .....in case anyone is wondering if this is a gollum-smeagol response. ;)

[Ivy]

Didn't the Messianic movement start about 50 years ago? Or was it in the 60's with Jews for Jesus?....I can't remember.

But my understanding was that in the beginning, it was a movement for Jewish-born believers in Yeshua. I think it came as a surprise to the leaders when there was so much interest from Gentiles.

Some possible reasons--some have inferiority/identity issues i.e. feel maybe they're not quite as much God's children if they're not Jewish; some are dissatisfied with the spiritual mediocrity in some Christian sectors & are seeking some mechanism to live a more holy & consecrated life; some are interested in learning about the roots of Christian faith & in being a friend to the Jewish people.

While I think it's taken some Messianic leaders aback, really it can be seen, in a way, as an opportunity to "be a light to the nations" ......"the nations" are right there conveniently in their own congregations with them.

[simchat_torah]

Gee, a Messianic website making claims about how
MJ is a "real" Judaism.
Now that's going to convince us that it is.....;)Heh, quite true ;)

Or was it in the 60's with Jews for Jesus?....I can't remember.
The organization was started as a missionary outreach by the pentacostal denomination Assemblies of G-d. It then rapidly grew into its own organization.

[mpossoff]

I am a gentile and the reason I am getting involved is because God called me here.

Well you have to ask yourself biblically what is the true faith in the Bible?

Judaism is a religion and not necessary the faith in the Bible per say.

I don't even like the name Messianic Judaism per say. Not because I don't want to be associated with Judaism, it's not necessarily the faith in the Bible.

Wouldn't know what else to call it if you are hung up on names of denominations.

I worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Marc

[ChavaK]

I am a gentile and the reason I am getting involved is because God called me here.


I guess my poorly worded question would be....
why is the messianic movement mainly
attractive to non-Jews?

:wave:

[ChavaK]

I don't even like the name Messianic Judaism per say. Not because I don't want to be associated with Judaism, it's not necessarily the faith in the Bible.
Wouldn't know what else to call it if you are hung up on names of denominations.
Marc

Why not just call it Messicainicism or Messiacism or
some such title....why continue to call it MJ when
it is so clearly different from Judaism? And why
do the gentiles involved in it continue to include
so many "non-Biblical aspects" of Judaism- both
religously and culturaly-in their faith when it is
not "biblical"? I guess I will never understand this...:)

[stone]

And why
do the gentiles involved in it continue to include
so many "non-Biblical aspects" of Judaism- both
religously and culturaly-in their faith when it is
not "biblical"?

Like what?

[Henaynei]

So few of those involved in the MJ movement are Jews....I would be more interested in knowing why so many gentiles are now getting involved in an expression (albeit an illegitimate expression) of Judaism, than Jews are.:wave:

1) almost all the MJs in Israel are Jews, and there are thousands of them.

2) as to why more gentiles than Jews.... demographics - there have always been more gentiles than Jews, except in Israel and with the rate of abortion among the Jews and the birth rate among the Arabs that is set to change within the next few years .....

[christianmomof3]

Why not just call it Messicainicism or Messiacism or
some such title....why continue to call it MJ when
it is so clearly different from Judaism? And why
do the gentiles involved in it continue to include
so many "non-Biblical aspects" of Judaism- both
religously and culturaly-in their faith when it is
not "biblical"? I guess I will never understand this...:)
I agree. That is one of the things I am trying to understand about the MJ group. I origninally thought that Messianic Jews would be people like me - people who are Jews who are now Christians because we believe that Jesus is the Messiah - Jews who are now born-again.
To my suprise I have found that MJ is mostly a bunch of gentiles who dress up like Jews and try to take on the Jewish culture.

I have read that the MJ religion wants to go back to what the Bible says and not have the pagan things that were introduced into Christianity. That is great! That is wonderful! I agree!

But, the Jewish culture is not from the Bible.
So why does Messianic Judaism try to immitate or take on the Jewish culture?

Learning yiddush terms and Hebrew terms and sprinkling them into your converstation does not make you more religious or more Jewish.

Cooking and eating traditional Jewish Kosher food does not make you Jewish either.

In fact, Jewish Kosher is not the same as Biblical Kosher anyway.

Jewish Kosher goes beyond what is in the Bible about dietary laws.
So why do so many MJs keep Kosher according to the Rabbinical Jewish rules?

The star of David is a symbol of Judaism - not of Christianity - why does MJ use it?

Why do MJs think they need to learn and sing traditional Jewish songs?

Why do they think they have to use the Hebrew language and Hebrew terminlolgy?

Why do they call the buildings they meet in "Synagogues"?

[simchat_torah]

I too had heard reports of MJ Jews living in Israel, even with large congregations. However, when I had a friend of mine who lives in Jerusalem check out some of these places, it turned out not to be true in the slightest.

[mpossoff]

I agree. That is one of the things I am trying to understand about the MJ group. I origninally thought that Messianic Jews would be people like me - people who are Jews who are now Christians because we believe that Jesus is the Messiah - Jews who are now born-again.
To my suprise I have found that MJ is mostly a bunch of gentiles who dress up like Jews and try to take on the Jewish culture.

I have read that the MJ religion wants to go back to what the Bible says and not have the pagan things that were introduced into Christianity. That is great! That is wonderful! I agree!

But, the Jewish culture is not from the Bible.
So why does Messianic Judaism try to immitate or take on the Jewish culture?

Learning yiddush terms and Hebrew terms and sprinkling them into your converstation does not make you more religious or more Jewish.

Cooking and eating traditional Jewish Kosher food does not make you Jewish either.

In fact, Jewish Kosher is not the same as Biblical Kosher anyway.

Jewish Kosher goes beyond what is in the Bible about dietary laws.
So why do so many MJs keep Kosher according to the Rabbinical Jewish rules?

The star of David is a symbol of Judaism - not of Christianity - why does MJ use it?

Why do MJs think they need to learn and sing traditional Jewish songs?

Why do they think they have to use the Hebrew language and Hebrew terminlolgy?

Why do they call the buildings they meet in "Synagogues"?






I agree. That is one of the things I am trying to understand about the MJ group. I origninally thought that Messianic Jews would be people like me - people who are Jews who are now Christians because we believe that Jesus is the Messiah - Jews who are now born-again.
To my suprise I have found that MJ is mostly a bunch of gentiles who dress up like Jews and try to take on the Jewish culture.

I agree for the most part. What we need to do as a community is try to come to some kind of agreement per say on why we keep Torah.

In other words if keeping Torah doesn't save you then why do we keep it?

Our Torah observance is not to precede our salvation experience and is not more important than knowing Yeshua. There could possibly be many people who are disappointed and who were “Torah observant” when they are not allowed into the Messiah’s Kingdom.

In fact, Jewish Kosher is not the same as Biblical Kosher anyway.

I would agree.

Why do they call the buildings they meet in "Synagogues"?

Well we might be stretching this here. People were meeting in synagogues every Sabbath. I don't have a problem calling it church in the true sense.

As I said before Messianic Judaism isn't Orthodox Judaism. It is a different sect.

Marc

[stone]

Learning yiddush terms and Hebrew terms and sprinkling them into your converstation does not make you more religious or more Jewish.

Cooking and eating traditional Jewish Kosher food does not make you Jewish either.

In fact, Jewish Kosher is not the same as Biblical Kosher anyway.

Jewish Kosher goes beyond what is in the Bible about dietary laws.
So why do so many MJs keep Kosher according to the Rabbinical Jewish rules?

As someone that makes the claim to be on the outside of the movement looking in, i'm curious as to where you are gathering your information? You make the claim that so many gentiles are rabbinically kosher? Why do you use the words, "so many"? How do you know that there are so many that are rabbinically kosher?




The star of David is a symbol of Judaism - not of Christianity - why does MJ use it?

We are a torah observant movement. I've observed that this organization caters to Jews. With those two factors alone, we have every right to.



Why do MJs think they need to learn and sing traditional Jewish songs?

No one thinks that they need to learn or sing traditional jewish songs. We rather enjoy it and the spirit that accompanies us.



Why do they think they have to use the Hebrew language and Hebrew terminlolgy?

Why do they call the buildings they meet in "Synagogues"?






No body thnks that they have to use the Hebrew language and terminology. As i mentioned, we are Torah observant, how else can we have a torah service if not in Hebrew?

When we have services on Shabbat, and its all torah based, then it is a synagogue. Our difference is that we know Y-shua is the messiah, just as you know.

[stone]

I too had heard reports of MJ Jews living in Israel, even with large congregations. However, when I had a friend of mine who lives in Jerusalem check out some of these places, it turned out not to be true in the slightest.


Don't they more of less remain underground in Israel to avoid persecution?

[christianmomof3]

As someone that makes the claim to be on the outside of the movement looking in, i'm curious as to where you are gathering your information? You make the claim that so many gentiles are rabbinically kosher? Why do you use the words, "so many"? How do you know that there are so many that are rabbinically kosher?

Ok, why do any gentile Messianic Jews keep rabinically kosher? What is the reason that the MJ religion would promote that?

[stone]

Ok, why do any gentile Messianic Jews keep rabinically kosher? What is the reason that the MJ religion would promote that?


lol, its not promoted. If one chooses to observe the writeings of the Talmud, they are not discouraged. It's something that one takes upon themselves by their own free will.

Why do you says its promoted? Has it been pushed upon you by someone from the MJ movement? I seriously dought it. As someone on the inside, I've never seen this that you claim. There are some within the movement that do keep it and that's the reason for distinguishing luncheon's as dairy or meat. Those that do observe it, are not alienated by the synagogue, they are respected.

[mpossoff]

lol, its not promoted. If one chooses to observe the writeings of the Talmud, they are not discouraged. It's something that one takes upon themselves by their own free will.

Why do you says its promoted? Has it been pushed upon you by someone from the MJ movement? I seriously dought it. As someone on the inside, I've never seen this that you claim. There are some within the movement that do keep it and that's the reason for distinguishing luncheon's as dairy or meat. Those that do observe it, are not alienated by the synagogue, they are respected.

It also depends what congregation you go to.

You might have experienced an orthodox type congregation?

Marc

[ChazakEmunah]

Gotta disagree with you....Jews do not accept
MJ as a Jewish denomination. To claim it as
such may be seem as legitimate from a Christian
viewpoint, but not from a Jewish one.

:wave:
Agreed.

[christianmomof3]

lol, its not promoted. If one chooses to observe the writeings of the Talmud, they are not discouraged. It's something that one takes upon themselves by their own free will.

Why do you says its promoted? Has it been pushed upon you by someone from the MJ movement? I seriously dought it. As someone on the inside, I've never seen this that you claim. There are some within the movement that do keep it and that's the reason for distinguishing luncheon's as dairy or meat. Those that do observe it, are not alienated by the synagogue, they are respected.
My children like your character's outfit. :cool: They just dressed my character. :D
I think I will start another thread to ask the differences between rabinical and biblical kosher.

[ChazakEmunah]

Messianic Judaism is a Sect of Judaism just as it was in the beginning. It has remained so and will continue to remain so. Whether our non believing brothers and sisters agree is pretty much irrlevant.
Fine and well, but there was never a sect of Judaism that was called 'messianic.' All Jews are 'messianic' by nature, in that we all hope for the Mashiakh.

[mpossoff]

Fine and well, but there was never a sect of Judaism that was called 'messianic.' All Jews are 'messianic' by nature, in that we all hope for the Mashiakh.

What was the main battle between the sects in the 1st century?

Marc

[simchat_torah]

Messianic Judaism is a Sect of Judaism just as it was in the beginning. It has remained so and will continue to remain so. Whether our non believing brothers and sisters agree is pretty much irrlevant.
I will grant you that the Netzarim were a legitimate sect in the first couple of centuries. However, what is tossed around today as "Messianic Judaism" has very little to do with that early sect, and looks nothing like it in the slightest.

[simchat_torah]

In fact, Jewish Kosher is not the same as Biblical Kosher anyway. I know very few MJ's who follow the Orthodox way of Kashrut. In fact, most MJ's toss aside anything labelled "Rabbinic". There is a strong distaste amongst MJ's as a whole for any oral law whatsoever.

[simchat_torah]

But, the Jewish culture is not from the Bible.
No, but it is closely intertwined. Hebrew, the Jewish tongue, is the language of Biblical texts. Not to mention all Jewish life and "oral laws" are derived from the Torah and Tenach. Jewish lifestyle has developed hand in hand with the "bible" for many a millenia. To seperate the two would be devastatingly difficult, as the Jewish lifestyle is so closely intertwined with the Torah.

[stone]

It also depends what congregation you go to.

You might have experienced an orthodox type congregation?

Marc

I attend an orthodox congrgation and Talmud is not promoted. It is taught to you if you are looking to be taught.

[stone]

My children like your character's outfit. :cool: They just dressed my character. :D
I think I will start another thread to ask the differences between rabinical and biblical kosher.



The answer is simply Talmud vs. written torah

[stone]

My children like your character's outfit. :cool: They just dressed my character. :D




O yea, gotta have that shield. I get lots of rocks thrown at me. :wave:

[Henaynei]

I too had heard reports of MJ Jews living in Israel, even with large congregations. However, when I had a friend of mine who lives in Jerusalem check out some of these places, it turned out not to be true in the slightest.my rabbi, a South African Jewish man who lived in Israel for 13 years says it is so. And we have had visitors from Israel, Messianic *Jews,* who also say it is so. They even brought news reports from Israel several years ago where a group of the Orthodox had attacked a MJ synagogue, throwing trash and things at the members and their children when they tried to leave the building, etc.

So their presence seems to be felt by those actually living there :)


but there is enough he said:she said going on around here, I'm content to leave this alone.

[Ivy]

I too had heard reports of MJ Jews living in Israel, even with large congregations. However, when I had a friend of mine who lives in Jerusalem check out some of these places, it turned out not to be true in the slightest.

Then I guess my friends who are MJ congregational leaders in Jerusalem are mirages. ;) Funny thing, they were my next door neighbors for years and I attended their goodbye party when they left to make aliyah. :sorry:

[simchat_torah]

Oh, I don't dispute that individuals exist, but I certainly don't think a "plethera" exists... or entire congregations.

[Henaynei]

men refused to believe in the river horse or the rhinoceros because they had never seen one themselves and were unwilling to take the testimony of those who had ... we are all like that over something or another ;)

[ChavaK]

1) almost all the MJs in Israel are Jews.
Well, given that Jews make up the majority of the
population, that is no surprise ;) As a whole, the
vast majority of those involved in MJ are gentile...


2) as to why more gentiles than Jews.... demographics - there have always been more gentiles than Jews

But why are gentiles drawn to a belief that was
developed specificaly to attract Jews......?

[ChavaK]

Then I guess my friends who are MJ congregational leaders in Jerusalem are mirages. ;) Funny thing, they were my next door neighbors for years and I attended their goodbye party when they left to make aliyah. :sorry:

Interesting that they could make aliyah...it is against
the lawa the secular Israeli courts have established...

[Henaynei]

Well, given that Jews make up the majority of the
population, that is no surprise ;) As a whole, the
vast majority of those involved in MJ are gentile...



But why are gentiles drawn to a belief that was
developed specifically to attract Jews......?it was not originally "developed" to "attract Jews" - in fact when it originally started out those standing at the foot of the mountain were "a mixed multitude" and there have ever been gentiles called by G-d to sojourn with Israel, to stand along side and even be a part of her ... G-d hasn't changed :) but along with the wheat one always gets the tares as well. Some tares are easy to spot but only the Master of the Threshing Floor can finally tell the difference and make the separation ...

[ChavaK]

it was not originally "developed" to "attract Jews" - in fact when it originally started out those standing at the foot of the mountain were "a mixed multitude" and there have ever been gentiles called by G-d to sojourn with Israel, to stand along side and even be a part of her ... G-d hasn't changed :) but along with the wheat one always gets the tares as well. Some tares are easy to spot but only the Master of the Threshing Floor can finally tell the difference and make the separation ...

We will have to differ....I view the messianic movement
as a modern day invention designed to evangelize Jews... but attracting gentiles instead.
By the way, Happy Early Birthday!

[visionary]

Nowhere has the growth been more dramatic than in Israel itself. In a recent survey, Kai Kjaer-Hansen, International Coordinator of the Lausanne Consultation on Jewish Evangelism, and his team profiled more than 80 Messianic congregations and house groups.

http://www.ad2000.org/shalom6.htm

[ChazakEmunah]

Actually, Henaynei, Chava is right. The modern Messianic movement was developed in order to evangelize Jews. You may not view it as such, but having known many of the leaders in that movement, they are always discussing evangelization as a top priority. Further, many organizations, Jews for Je*us, Chosen People Ministries, etc... were all designed to evangelize Jews. The problem now facing the Messianic movement is that this plan backfired. Instead of bringing in Jews, it brought in Gentiles!

[A_Pioneer]

I suppose the Way was a mirage also, the prototype of the movement?!

BTW you seem to be mixing MJ with Jews for Jesus.

Shalom Alechem

[ChazakEmunah]

I suppose the Way was a mirage also, the prototype of the movement?!

BTW you seem to be mixing MJ with Jews for Jesus.

Shalom Alechem

Interestingly enough, the Essenes were also called "The Way." I think what we're trying to say is that it started off as an evangelization effort and it still is to a large extent, though at this point it is pretty diverse.

[Henaynei]

Todah for the birthday greeting :) We will have to differ....I view the messianic movement as a modern day invention designed to evangelize Jews... but attracting gentiles instead.
By the way, Happy Early Birthday!well, firstly I was referring to Judaism, not MJism above ....

2ndly yes we will have to disagree on the origins of MJism. POV - historically it's resurgence blossomed when Jewish people who have accepted Jesus as Messiah began to question why they had to deny who they were to serve and worship the Jewish Messiah. Originally they called themselves Hebrew Christians and were upstanding members of churches, most notable in Europe (if you are ever able to do so you should read a paper written by Mark Levy in 1909 that he addressed to the Hebrew Christian Alliance, it was WAY before it's time!). Soon others questioned why they had to take on the Hellenistic culture to serve and worship the Jewish Messiah, why they could not worship the Jewish Messiah as Jews. These eventually took on the name Messianic Jews (it was actually first done by the youth at a Hebrew Christian Conference and they eventually got enough backing to put it to a vote). Thus what was once called the Hebrew Christian Alliance of America became known as the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America. As this became more well known Christians were drawn to it, some stuck, most did not - but either way the weight of demographics eventually tipped the scales in the direction of the gentile believers. (the above is a *very* rough sketch)

This is NOT to say that there have not been folks who have tried to use the names and dress and customs to evangelize the Jewish people, but that has never been the thrust of the movement and the vast majority of MJism rejects those actions. Unfortunately that is unable to undo the damage to the reputation of MJism in some circles and neither is it able to prevent others from making the same offensive mistake.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[A_Pioneer]

Interestingly enough, the Essenes were also called "The Way." I think what we're trying to say is that it started off as an evangelization effort and it still is to a large extent, though at this point it is pretty diverse.
I can only speak from what I have experienced, being rather long in the tooth, I am a relatively a Torah Tot, but when I came into the faith Messianic Jews were just that! Jews for Jesus is entirely a Christian for Christianizing Jews.
The New Pope while a Cardinal said that the ROC did not have a mission to the Jews, that God had their salvation well in hand.
It is my opinion that the Christians are just wrong and will not give up on their mission to convert Jews to Jesus.
The first step is to change their name from Christian to Messianic, but that will only happen at his coming!

Shalom Alechem

[GerTzedek]

I suppose the Way was a mirage also, the prototype of the movement?!

BTW you seem to be mixing MJ with Jews for Jesus.

Shalom Alechem

Aaaarrrrgh! Those who shall not be named!

[GerTzedek]

I can only speak from what I have experienced, being rather long in the tooth, I am a relatively a Torah Tot, but when I came into the faith Messianic Jews were just that! Jews for Jesus is entirely a Christian for Christianizing Jews.
The New Pope while a Cardinal said that the ROC did not have a mission to the Jews, that God had their salvation well in hand.
It is my opinion that the Christians are just wrong and will not give up on their mission to convert Jews to Jesus.
The first step is to change their name from Christian to Messianic, but that will only happen at his coming!

Shalom Alechem

Ahhhh, they can be taught. Remember, Catholics are Christians, and you just quoted Pope Benedict (who is following in the footsteps of JP2). If the mountain of Rome can be moved, so can other Christians.

[visionary]

Ahhhh, they can be taught. Remember, Catholics are Christians, and you just quoted Pope Benedict (who is following in the footsteps of JP2). If the mountain of Rome can be moved, so can other Christians.Hahahahaha^_^ ...like a leopard can change its spots.

[muffler dragon]

Aaaarrrrgh! Those who shall not be named!

Are you re-enacting The Village? :D

[fremen]

It is also true, or at least so I have heard said by an Orthodox Rabbi, that most of the Essene sect converted to Christianity. It could be argued that several among the first Christians were of Essene background. John the apostle is a good example, and so is John the Baptist.

So it could be that this is why the Christian sect became known as "The Way."

Fremen

Interestingly enough, the Essenes were also called "The Way." I think what we're trying to say is that it started off as an evangelization effort and it still is to a large extent, though at this point it is pretty diverse.

[RebbeCohen]

Let us pray that MJ never becomes a religion... for then the Holy Spirit can not work all things new in us.

what a perfectly goyisha kopf concept.

[GerTzedek]

Are you re-enacting The Village? :D
Actually I was in a Harry Potter mood.

[visionary]

Och, Goyisha Kopf
A Jewish guy, Murry, has always been a good Jew. He came to synagogue every week, had friends there. One day he decides he wants to convert. His friends try, but cannot dissuade him. So finally he converts.
The next shabbos, there he is in shul again!
His friends go over to him, "Murry, what are you doing here? You converted!
You should be in Church! "
Says Murry, "Och, goyisha kopf! Not when you convert to messianic judaism"

[Henaynei]

what a perfectly goyisha kopf concept.LOL ;)

[ContraMundum]

Ahhhh, they can be taught. Remember, Catholics are Christians, and you just quoted Pope Benedict (who is following in the footsteps of JP2). If the mountain of Rome can be moved, so can other Christians.

Good point.


If Rome moves eventually the others follow. If the others move first, Rome digs in. That's history.

[GerTzedek]

Originally Posted by christianmomof3
Ok, why do any gentile Messianic Jews keep rabinically kosher? What is the reason that the MJ religion would promote that?lol, its not promoted. If one chooses to observe the writeings of the Talmud, they are not discouraged. It's something that one takes upon themselves by their own free will.

Why do you says its promoted?

It IS promoted. Perhaps just not by your congregation. Are you affiliated with MJAA or UMJC?

From the Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Council, an example of requirement of what is rabbinically kosher.
http://www.ourrabbis.org/main/content/view/20/34/
5.4 Separating Meat & Dairy

Our basic standard should urge that people avoid eating meat products (including fowl) and obvious dairy products (or foods containing obvious dairy products) together in a given meal. Meat may be eaten after eating obvious dairy foods without any time interval, though they should not be present together at the same table. After eating a meat meal, the minimum time interval before eating obvious dairy products should be one hour.

No particular time limit between eating meat and dairy products is specified in the Talmud. Therefore, a variety of customs developed in Jewish communities around the world. In some places the minimum interval was as long as six hours; in other places it was as short as one hour. In keeping with our principle of establishing a basic practice that is as accessible as possible, we have adopted the most lenient custom as our basic practice.

Remember that this council also endorses both a basic practice, meaning it is binding on the congregations of UMJC (the second largest MJ Association), and also an "expanded practice" for those wishing a fuller observance.

[visionary]

I guess my poorly worded question would be....
why is the messianic movement mainly
attractive to non-Jews?

:wave:Yeshua is calling John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. The fold He called me to is here in Messianic Judaism. The attraction is Yeshua in full Rabbi garb and living large and hebrew.

[GerTzedek]

Yeshua is calling The fold He called me to is here in Messianic Judaism. The attraction is Yeshua in full Rabbi garb and living large and hebrew.
Or perhaps, ChavaK, it is just plain attractive in general, and there are gazillions more gentiles in the world than Jews.

ALSO, as MJ moved closer to the center of Judaism, gentile interest will wane, because it will become too taxing. How many of the gentiles here can read Hebrew well enough to use the Siddur?

It becomes VERY obvious at my synagogue who the Jews are, because it seems like at least once a month the Chazan chooses a different melody for this or that part of the liturgy. The Jews all know it. Everyone else just... blink blink blink... huh? :D

Gentiles want to participate in liturgy. The more Hebrew is used, the less they can participate. Our siddur doesn't have transliteration, and that may very well become the norm. Most gentiles are not willing to learn Hebrew. They will end up unhappy. They will not stay. Only the real wierdos like me who actually prefer the liturgy in Hebrew, even if it is hard, and the intermarrieds, will stay.

[visionary]

I like Hebrew, though I do not know a word of it. I can close my eyes and listen and picture as it was when Yeshua would pray.

[Talmidah]

Our siddur doesn't have transliteration, and that may very well become the norm. This is a little OT, but I don't think deserves its own thread. :sorry: I'm curious as to what siddurim are in use in MJ congregations. Are there published MJ siddurim? Or do you use Jewish ones?

Thanks! :)

[ChazakEmunah]

This is a little OT, but I don't think deserves its own thread. :sorry: I'm curious as to what siddurim are in use in MJ congregations. Are there published MJ siddurim? Or do you use Jewish ones?

Thanks! :)
Talmidah,

When I was a Messianic, I used a variety of siddurim. There was one that we used while in Colorado (which we adapted while in Hawaii) and one that was used by another congregation (I think it came from Florida or something). So I guess my answer would be that yes, Messianics tend to use their own siddurim.

[ContraMundum]

There is a Messianic Siddur put out by that Tim Hegg guy.

It's a little silly, IMHO- as it is entirely in Hebrew (with English translations on the side), intended for use among predominantly English speakers, and even has the crazy idea that the New Testament readings should be done in Hebrew. (So, you end up with the bizzare scenario that English speakers are reading a Greek text in Hebrew in their congregation- when English would be far more effective and Greek more accurate. Whacky.).