Misconception: Must Keep Torah Perfectly!

[muffler dragon]

The misconception that a Jew must keep the Torah perfectly from cradle to grave has arisen in a couple posts I have read. I wanted to open up this thread so that we might discuss this misconception.

Within all of the Torah and the 'NaKh, there is no mention of a the need to be perfect in keeping the Torah.

Thoughts?

[ChazakEmunah]

I completely agree. As I addressed in another post, this very notion is disspelled by the fact that after Melek David repented of his sin he was considered perfect by HaShem.

This is the Jewish definition of perfection. Not that one never sins, but that when one sins, they repent. After they repent, they are considered perfect.

[simchat_torah]

Not that one never sins, but that when one sins, they repent. After they repent, they are considered perfect.Aye...

Teshuvah, Tehillah, and Tzeddakah.

[A_Pioneer]

I completely agree. As I addressed in another post, this very notion is disspelled by the fact that after Melek David repented of his sin he was considered perfect by HaShem.

This is the Jewish definition of perfection. Not that one never sins, but that when one sins, they repent. After they repent, they are considered perfect.

I think in this Western culture we put a different meaning on perfection, something that one is unable to attain. That is what is a lead in for Jesus. They (Christian Ministers) use this 'sledgehammer' effetively! It certainly makes the issue a lot more pointed, but if only God can keep those mitzvot, he put an impossible task in front of the Hebrew people. That is not a Just God.

Hi Buddy.

Shalom

[ChazakEmunah]

I think in this Western culture we put a different meaning on perfection, something that one is unable to attain. That is what is a lead in for Jesus. They (Christian Ministers) use this 'sledgehammer' effetively! It certainly makes the issue a lot more pointed, but if only God can keep those mitzvot, he put an impossible task in front of the Hebrew people. That is not a Just God.

Hi Buddy.

Shalom
Exactly! How could a just G-d do such a thing by intending us to keep that which is impossible? HaShem would never do such a thing.


Shalom Pioneer! It's been a little while!


Good Shabbos everyone!

[ChazakEmunah]

Aye...

Teshuvah, Tehillah, and Tzeddakah.
Yep!

[fremen]

So, MD, you're saying that Hashem gave us the a Torah He expects us NOT to keep?

Torah is basically a forkroad. Hashem shows us Jews life and death. He does expect us to choose life. Every mitzvah we keep, we bring life into His world. Every mitzvah we don't keep, we allow death to rule.

Certainly, His expectations are that His children will walk in His ways. Heck, this is basic to every religion that believes there is a G-d. Judaism is no different.

The fact that Judaism introduced a concept of CHESED and of SELICHAH in a world where the gods were seen as blood-thirsty brutal rulers does not mean Hashem doesn't expect His people to follow the Torah.

Fremen

[mpossoff]

I completely agree. As I addressed in another post, this very notion is disspelled by the fact that after Melek David repented of his sin he was considered perfect by HaShem.

This is the Jewish definition of perfection. Not that one never sins, but that when one sins, they repent. After they repent, they are considered perfect.

He wasn't perfect but God said David was blameless because since he was a man after God's own heart he 'took care' of his sin.

Marc

[A_Pioneer]

So, MD, you're saying that Hashem gave us the a Torah He expects us NOT to keep?

Torah is basically a forkroad. Hashem shows us Jews life and death. He does expect us to choose life. Every mitzvah we keep, we bring life into His world. Every mitzvah we don't keep, we allow death to rule.

Certainly, His expectations are that His children will walk in His ways. Heck, this is basic to every religion that believes there is a G-d. Judaism is no different.

The fact that Judaism introduced a concept of CHESED and of SELICHAH in a world where the gods were seen as blood-thirsty brutal rulers does not mean Hashem doesn't expect His people to follow the Torah.

Fremen
Fremen, you're good! From your first post I wondered, but since you have depth. I like it.

You're an addition here, keep it up.

Shabbat Shalom

[muffler dragon]

So, MD, you're saying that Hashem gave us the a Torah He expects us NOT to keep?

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. :doh:

And if that's not clear enough, I'll be more specific: that was a sarcastic response.

How in the world you infer that from my OP is beyond me.

Torah is basically a forkroad. Hashem shows us Jews life and death. He does expect us to choose life. Every mitzvah we keep, we bring life into His world. Every mitzvah we don't keep, we allow death to rule.

Certainly, His expectations are that His children will walk in His ways. Heck, this is basic to every religion that believes there is a G-d. Judaism is no different.

The fact that Judaism introduced a concept of CHESED and of SELICHAH in a world where the gods were seen as blood-thirsty brutal rulers does not mean Hashem doesn't expect His people to follow the Torah.

Fremen

This thread is about one single word: PERFECTLY.

Did you not notice that in my OP?

I'll recopy it here so that you can see it and the intent of my statement:

The misconception that a Jew must keep the Torah perfectly from cradle to grave has arisen in a couple posts I have read. I wanted to open up this thread so that we might discuss this misconception.

Within all of the Torah and the 'NaKh, there is no mention of a the need to be perfect in keeping the Torah.

The Torah is the mantle of Judaism, and all Jews are called to carry that mantle. The goal behind this is "effort"; not perfection.

The statement had been made by a poster on this site that the only person throughout history who observed the Torah perfectly was Jesus. And this somehow makes him the super-sacrifice for all mankind. This poster is dead wrong on so many accounts it's ridiculous, but the main point is: The Jews aren't called to be perfect. G-d knows that perfect observance from cradle to grave is not going to happen. Hence, the establishment of forgiveness and so forth.

[visionary]

Torah is the road upon which a believer walks with Yeshua. If a believer walks without Yeshua then it is works and has more to do with making sure you do not step on the cracks in the road...thus missing the point of the journey. If a believer walks in the spirit, not watching the road, then what spirit is the believer following and if it is off the road, where is the spirit leading? A question that any good believer would ask.

[zaksmummy]

Thanks for that, it is the best explanation I've ever heard, and really blessed me. Will try to remember this for future reference. It just back up everything God has been speaking to me about over the last few weeks about repentance and not being under condemnation

Thanks again.:wave:

Catrin xx

[Steve Petersen]

As the old saying goes:

'The Torah wasn't given to the angels, but to men.'

[muffler dragon]

Torah is the road upon which a believer walks with Yeshua. If a believer walks without Yeshua then it is works and has more to do with making sure you do not step on the cracks in the road...thus missing the point of the journey. If a believer walks in the spirit, not watching the road, then what spirit is the believer following and if it is off the road, where is the spirit leading? A question that any good believer would ask.

Vis:

This has NOTHING to do with my OP. Please refrain from tangents. Furthermore, it's a repugnant introduction (if I may be so blunt). This is a disdainful statement to those Jews who are Torah observant, because that is what G-d has requested of them.

[muffler dragon]

Thanks for that, it is the best explanation I've ever heard, and really blessed me. Will try to remember this for future reference. It just back up everything God has been speaking to me about over the last few weeks about repentance and not being under condemnation

Thanks again.:wave:

Catrin xx

Keep in mind that it's blatantly wrong from a Judaic POV.

[Ivy]

Isn't that the reason for month of Elul, Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur?.....to deal with all the imperfection of the last year?

[muffler dragon]

Isn't that the reason for month of Elul, Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur?.....to deal with all the imperfection of the last year?

More or less. Which further substantiates my POV that G-d never expected such from His people. Wouldn't you agree?

[Ivy]

Expect perfection? From us????? :D Have you observed any of us lately? ;)

And also, doesn't the Scripture say he knows our frame, he remembers that we are dust etc.?

[Ivy]

I didn't see the other posts.......the ones that said a Jew should keep Torah perfectly from cradle to grave.

I've been taught that there is a chasm, a huge gap between all humanity and God, because he is holy and we sin, and that we cannot bridge that gap through our own efforts.

One person may be wicked, another more righteous, but neither one can jump "long" enough to get over the gap, though the righteous-living person's jump may be a little longer--he still doesn't make it all the way. So it is God's forgiveness that is needed to close the gap.

That's how it was recently taught to me, anyway.

[fremen]

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. :doh:

And if that's not clear enough, I'll be more specific: that was a sarcastic response.

How in the world you infer that from my OP is beyond me.

Are you always THAT aggressive? :sigh:

My point is that there is a difference between what He expects from us from a moral/religious point of view, and what He knows will happen in practical terms.

Frankly, was your thread meant only to create a comotion? I fail to see any other objective. Yes, because NO RELIGION I know has ever taught that G-d, or the Supreme Being or whatcha-ma-call-him, would actually think we stand a chance of being perfect in our ways. Judaism doesn't teach that (obviously), but Christianity doesn't teach that either. Heck, not even Islam in all its radicalism teaches that.

This thread is about one single word: PERFECTLY.


The statement had been made by a poster on this site that the only person throughout history who observed the Torah perfectly was Jesus. And this somehow makes him the super-sacrifice for all mankind. This poster is dead wrong on so many accounts it's ridiculous

Are you always this disrespectful towards other religions in their own cyber-space? It saddens me to see people ridiculing other people's beliefs. This is why the human race is so far from evolving spiritually. :(

Christianity, as far as I know (and Christians: please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), teaches the concept that a fully-righteous man died for those who sin. The very foundation of such belief comes from the Jewish sacrificial atonement system combined with the belief that a tzaddik can die for his generation. One could argue whether Hashem would want someone to die for the sins of others, or if this is the kind of atonement He would have in his plans for His people. But that's a different thing. That's why we have different creeds. That's why Christianity believes in Jesus and Judaism doesn't.


, but the main point is: The Jews aren't called to be perfect. G-d knows that perfect observance from cradle to grave is not going to happen. Hence, the establishment of forgiveness and so forth.

Wrong. We are called to be perfect. Heck, the Torah even has some scary threats in line if we choose to sin. But Hashem knows that we won't be able to achieve perfection in this life. Maybe in the Messianic Age? But that doesn't mean perfection isn't the Jewish goal. In fact, some (like the chassidics) want to go even beyond that. But I don't think Christianity is different there, is it?

Kol tov,
Fremen

[simchat_torah]

Frankly, was your thread meant only to create a comotion? I fail to see any other objective. Yes, because NO RELIGION I know has ever taught that G-d, or the Supreme Being or whatcha-ma-call-him, would actually think we stand a chance of being perfect in our ways. Judaism doesn't teach that (obviously), but Christianity doesn't teach that either.That is true, however Christianity teaches that JUDAISM says it must keep it perfectly. Which is an incorrect assumption, thus the point of this thread.

[Henaynei]

That is true, however Christianity teaches that JUDAISM says it must keep it perfectly. Which is an incorrect assumption, thus the point of this thread.The majority of Christianity does, yes. However, the majority of MJism does not :) And yes, it is a totally incorrect assumption.... one that has caused much grief.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[Jerrell]

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Ro 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Ro 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Ro 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

[Jerrell]

Ro 3:23 For all have done wrong and are far from the glory of God;

Ro 3:24 And they may have righteousness put to their credit, freely, by his grace, through the salvation which is in Christ Jesus:

Ro 3:25 Whom God has put forward as the sign of his mercy, through faith, by his blood, to make clear his righteousness when, in his pity, God let the sins of earlier times go without punishment;

Ro 3:26 And to make clear his righteousness now, so that he might himself be upright, and give righteousness to him who has faith in Jesus.

Ro 3:27 What reason, then, is there for pride? It is shut out. By what sort of law? of works? No, but by a law of faith.

Ro 3:28 For this reason, then, a man may get righteousness by faith without the works of the law.

Ro 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not in the same way the God of Gentiles? Yes, of Gentiles:

Ro 3:30 If God is one; and he will give righteousness because of faith to those who have circumcision, and through faith to those who have not circumcision.

Ro 3:31 Do we, then, through faith make the law of no effect? in no way: but we make it clear that the law is important.

~Basic English Version

[zaksmummy]

Keep in mind that it's blatantly wrong from a Judaic POV.
I know, its from a Messianic point of view, thats what I can looking for!

[Ivy]

That is true, however Christianity teaches that JUDAISM says it must keep it perfectly. Which is an incorrect assumption, thus the point of this thread.

Right, we need to get our facts straight. :thumbsup:

[visionary]

Be ye perfect..

Ge 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. I believe when you read the word "perfect" you need to come to the understanding that it is not perfect but in the heart and intent. Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. How can one walk before God and be perfect is the question. Deut 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. I have always assumed that it meant that you do no waver between right or wrong, you stand firm on the right, on the truth in all your judgments. 2Sa 22:31 As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him. That means a lot of faith that the Lord's Way is the right way. 1Ki 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day. Just as the rich man did and ask Yeshua what more did he need to do. 2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars. So our fear should be in "May you always be pleasing the Lord." 2Ch 19:9 And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and with a perfect heart. Have you noticed the ingredients of perfect... faithfully, without wavering, without ceasing, keeping the commandments and statutes, always looking up for Him, and to do things pleasing in His sight. Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. There are many who have not allowed the law of God to convert their soul.. so while they may do many things in His name and are good people, they are not truly fully converted as the law would bring them. Pr 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.For those who are seeking to walk perfectly with the Lord, He can lead, and they will shine forth more and more. You can tell it more by their spirit. Isa 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee. So when you think of perfection, think about what Yeshua told us. Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. And He made it sound like an achievable goal. Mt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. Now doesn't that cut right to the faith issue...how many of us can give up all that we have to follow Him? Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. So with this I say..Be Ye perfect as God designed you to be. Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

[ContraMundum]

Matt 5- Christian perfection is a perfect love, not a perfect performance.

[visionary]

Matt 5- Christian perfection is a perfect love, not a perfect performance.like choosing between being Martha or Mary. Yeshua did not condemn Martha for her dedication but gave higher value to Mary's approach.

[Steve Petersen]

I think that often times the words translated 'perfect' in the OT mean 'with integrity.'

[mpossoff]

I think that often times the words translated 'perfect' in the OT mean 'with integrity.'

Or David wasn't perfect but he was blamesless.

Could blameless and perfect sort of go hand in hand?

Marc

[visionary]

My child brings me a birthday card she has created for her grandmother's birthday. She just turned 88 today and we will be heading down to the nursing home to visit with her.

You know what, I consider that card a perfect example of "perfect". My child's heart was in the right place, as she thought of this herself and created it with grandma in mind, to bring her joy. That to me is perfect. In that moment in time, my child is perfect. Next second..yeeeech.

[Henaynei]

OT perfect:

tamyim: complete, whole, entire, sound

complete, whole, entire
whole, sound, healthful
complete, entire (of time)
sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity
what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and factshalem:complete, safe, peaceful, perfect, whole, full, at peace

complete
full, perfect
finished
safe, unharmed
peace (of covenant of peace, mind)

perfect, complete (of keeping covenant relation)
miklah: completeness, perfection - used only once, in 2 Chronicles (http://www.christianforums.com/2 Chronicles)

g'emar: to complete - only used once in Ezra (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/freqdisp.cgi?book=ezr&number=01585&count=1&version=kjv)

(P'al) perfect (pass participle)tam: perfect, complete

complete, perfect
one who lacks nothing in physical strength, beauty, etc
sound, wholesome

an ordinary, quiet sort of person
complete, morally innocent, having integrity

one who is morally and ethically pure
tamam: to be complete, be finished, be at an end

(Qal)
to be finished, be completed 1a
completely, wholly, entirely (as auxiliary with verb)

to be finished, come to an end, cease
to be complete (of number)
to be consumed, be exhausted, be spent
to be finished, be consumed, be destroyed
to be complete, be sound, be unimpaired, be upright (ethically)
to complete, finish
to be completely crossed over
(Niphal) to be consumed
(Hiphil)

to finish, complete, perfect
to finish, cease doing, leave off doing
to complete, sum up, make whole
to destroy (uncleanness)
to make sound
(Hithpael) to deal in integrity, act uprightlygamar:

to end, come to an end, complete, cease
(Qal)
to come to an end, be no more
to bring to an end, complete

(TWOT) to fail, perfect, performtakliyth:end, perfection, consummation, completion, completeness

end
completenesskuwn:to be firm, be stable, be established

(Niphal)
to be set up, be established, be fixed 1a
to be firmly established 1a
to be established, be stable, be secure, be enduring 1a
to be fixed, be securely determined

to be directed aright, be fixed aright, be steadfast (moral sense)
to prepare, be ready
to be prepared, be arranged, be settled
(Hiphil)

to establish, set up, accomplish, do, make firm
to fix, make ready, prepare, provide, provide for, furnish
to direct toward (moral sense)
to arrange, order
(Hophal)

to be established, be fastened
to be prepared, be ready
(Polel)

to set up, establish
to constitute, make
to fix
to direct
(Pulal) to be established, be prepared
(Hithpolel) to be established, be restoredkaliyl: adj

entire, all, perfectadv

entirety subst
whole, whole burnt offering, holocaust, entirety

[Ivy]

OT perfect:

tamyim: complete, whole, entire, sound

complete, whole, entire
whole, sound, healthful
complete, entire (of time)
sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity
what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and factshalem:complete, safe, peaceful, perfect, whole, full, at peace

complete
full, perfect
finished
safe, unharmed
peace (of covenant of peace, mind)

perfect, complete (of keeping covenant relation)

Lovely :thumbsup: