Infant Death

[Jenna]

I was wondering what pearls of wisdom you might have concerning children who have died in their infancy. Quite frankly, I was shocked by a conversation that I had with my sister (who also happens to be lutheran). Apparently, she was taught through her church that children who die without baptism go to hell. That is a very different teaching from what I recieved from my own pastor.

Let me be candid and tell you that this is a very emotional topic for me, but that I would love to have your honest opinions based on scripture. My husband and I have lost two children, a son who died 30 minutes after being born, and another son who was stillborn.

I cannot, even for a heartbeat, make any peace with what my sister has been taught. (What mother can make peace with the idea that the flaw of her own body has sent her children to an eternity apart from God?) I know that there are many people who teach that children of that immaturity cannot have any faith, and therefore cannot gain the kingdom of God. I haven't been able to find anything in the way of an "official" church understanding/teaching on the matter. I've talked with other Christians, but I've come to know that the Lutheran understanding of how God applies his grace is very different from what other denomations will accept. As I believe that the luther had the most biblical understanding of how God has granted us His grace, and how that enables faith, it seemed more fitting to be asking fellow lutherans for their opinions (based in God's Word, of course).

[DaRev]

Jenna,

Read this...

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2668

If you have any questions, PM me.


DaRev

[Jenna]

"There is some basis for the hope that God has a method, not revealed to us, by which He works faith in the children of Christians dying without Baptism (Mark 10:13-16). For children of unbelievers we do not venture to hold out such hope. We are here entering the field of the unsearchable judgments of God" (Romans 11:33).

So, the salvation of a dead child could be determined not by their own faith, or lack thereof, but by that of their parents? It just seems so contradictory to everything that I understand about God that He would condemn one person for the unbelief of someone else. :scratch:

Oh, let me tack this on here real quick:
I am certainly not asking for any absolutes here, but whether there is reason to hope or not. :) I just thought that I should clarify.

[Studeclunker]

So, the salvation of a dead child could be determined not by their own faith, or lack thereof, but by that of their parents? It just seems so contradictory to everything that I understand about God that He would condemn one person for the unbelief of someone else. :scratch:



This subject strikes sharply to my heart as well, Jenna.

Yes, Jenna, if the parents aren't saved, there is a chance the child is lost. It's a hard fact that the parents have denied the salvation of thier child through their own rejection. The fault is not God's, but the parent's. If the parents are saved, so is the child, "for your children are sanctified through your own baptism, otherwise they would be unclean." This quotation is in 1st Corinthians. It's in referrence to mixed marriages between unbelievers and believers, "Do not yoke yourselves unevenly..."

My heart goes out to you, as I too have lost a child shortly after his birth. This was due to an incompetent doctor who was protected by an HMO. Is my little boy in Sheol? Absolutely not! He is protected and covered by not only my baptism, but his mother's (praise the Lord for his infinite mercy and lovingkindness). :clap: I have no idea weather children lost before our own redemption are also covered. Perhaps the Revrand can tell us?

I, personally, look very much forward to meeting Pattrick, when I close my eyes to this shadowlands, someday. May it be soon, Lord. Your will be done till then...:crossrc:

[Edial]

Incredible.

Thst's when "theology" should be sidestepped for a moment, because it simply does not say that stillborns go to hell.

Scripturally speaking, we know that people go to the Burning Lake after the Judgement when they willfully and soberly reject Christ.

JN 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Did that infant reject Christ? How about that stillborn?

Incredible. People teach theology that babies go the Burning Lake with no verses to prove their theories.

Thanks,
Ed

[Studeclunker]

Hi ED!:wave:

Please take note that I said 'there is a chance...:( not a certainty!;) There are simply no promises made to the unbelievers.
Do I believe that a child is born sinless?
No, sadly, that's an inheritance we recieve from Adam. If we blame anyone, we must blame him.
Do I believe that God and Christ are big and effective enough to save even the children of the unsaved?
ABSOLUTELY!!! I simply have no scriptural referrence to back it up.

Jenna, there was a thread on this forum, about Death, shortly after I joined. You'll find it here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t4332812
you might find it interesting.

[Edial]

Hi ED!:wave:

Please take note that I said 'there is a chance...:( not a certainty!;) There are simply no promises made to the unbelievers.
Do I believe that a child is born sinless?
No, sadly, that's an inheritance we recieve from Adam. If we blame anyone, we must blame him.
Do I believe that God and Christ are big and effective enough to save even the children of the unsaved?
ABSOLUTELY!!! I simply have no scriptural referrence to back it up.

Jenna, there was a thread on this forum, about Death, shortly after I joined. You'll find it here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t4332812
you might find it interesting.
Hey Stude. :)

I actually did not respond to your post. You posted while I was writing.

It was just a general statement that some people preach that unbaptized children go to the Burning Lake. And they preach it with such certainty, as if they went and seen them there.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[PreachersWife2004]

We look at it this way:

If the baby was baptized, then the certainty of Heaven is there.

If the baby was not baptized, then there is hope, but not certainty.

This is why my babies are baptized immediately after birth.

But we don't wish to limit the ways that the holy spirit can bring people to the faith.

In my case, having just miscarried, the HOPE is there that my unborn child is in heaven, but I have no certainty. So I cling to the hope.

[IowaLutheran]

It is the Word, not the water by itself, that saves. If the Word can save through water, then the Word can also save the innocent through means that are only known to the child and to God.

[DaRev]

Some things to keep in mind...

"Faith comes by hearing..." The word itself is a means of grace.

Also the point made earlier about the faith of the parents is also valid.

The one things, though, is not to fall into the notion that infants are born innocent. We are conceived in sin and a natural state of rebellion against God and thus are deserving of damnation. But God's word offers that hope to those born before the opportunity of baptism, both through the baptism of the parents, and Exodus 33:19.

[BigNorsk]

Well let me first of all say that as far as I know, your sister's position has never been the position of Lutherans in general nor am I aware of any shall we say "important" Lutheran that has taught dying without baptism condemns a child. Maybe there was, but I'm not aware of any.

It is probably a misunderstanding of thinking since baptism saves that therefore dying without baptism condemns. Which would be more of a reformed way of coming up with doctrines.

And it could also have come from the Roman Catholics who for years forbid unbaptized children from burial in consecrated ground.

Now what do we know from scripture about this. Quite a bit and not a lot. For instance we know that God can and does act outside his normal means, since we have the example of John the Baptist being filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb. We have no certainty that this is normal, but it is possible.

We also see Jesus in the way he received the little children. We see with a certainty that little children indeed even infants can believe. There is no age in which one is too young to believe.

Much of the rest gets into Covenantal Theology. We see for instance that the sign of the covenant, circumcision was performed on 8 day old males. Obviously there was a relationship there from before the child. We see the pattern of baptism given in the bible is the baptism of families, again stressing the covenantal relationship.

In addition we have the reference telling the believing spouse not to leave and divorce because the believing spouse makes the children holy.

There really seems to be a relationship there, a covenant that the children of believers belong to. Now don't think that means that every child of a believer is forever saved throughout their life. We certainly can't go that far. But there does indeed seem to be much more than nothing. David for instance seems assured that he will again see his son who died in infancy. It is noteworthy that the child died on the 7th day, the day before circumcision. It does not appear that David believed his son was lost because he was not circumcised.

And that's just some. A person who's really into covenant theology could probably give you a bookfull of references.

And then there is the question of the children of unbelievers. Here there is even less but I think the strongest indication is what happens to the unbelievers several times in the bible. For instance when Noah built the ark, it saved his family, but it did not save the children of the unbelievers around him. Also, when the promised land was given to Israel, the children of the unbelievers were destroyed along with their parents, an indication that they were not members of the chosen people even temporarily. So it would seem to me the evidence is that children of unbelievers are not saved.

Anyway, that's a little. I think the most important thing is to trust God. We know God will do what is right.

Marv

[IowaLutheran]

The one things, though, is not to fall into the notion that infants are born innocent. We are conceived in sin and a natural state of rebellion against God and thus are deserving of damnation. But God's word offers that hope to those born before the opportunity of baptism, both through the baptism of the parents, and Exodus 33:19.

Correct. I thought about that after my use of the word "innocent" in my earlier post. Infants would not be innocent in terms of original sin, but would be innocent in terms of not having made a conscious decision to reject Christ referred to earlier by Ed.

[Jenna]

Boy, do I find myself in such an emotionally awkward place. As I've mentioned before, my husband and I have lost two sons. Our firstborn was concieved out of wedlock when I was 18 years old, and at the time I would have claimed myself to be wiccan. My boyfriend (now husband) was raised Catholic, but I would venture to say that he didn't openly proclaim Christ, though he did not deny Him either. As his girlfriend, religious issues between us didn't seem important, because he was "so far gone" as to have no problem with me and my worship of a false god.

I had been raised in the same lutheran church that we attend now as a family, but at the time- I just had no clue about the nature of God. Because I couldn't seem to get help in understanding Him, I was wide open for those who would tell me that I could basically pick and choose attributes that I could identify with in a god-figure, that that would be 'enough'. I felt as though I was always looking for God, but I kept opening all of the windows in my heart, instead of answering the Lord who was knocking at the door. :) I felt as though I were always seeking and never really finding Him.

As a teenager, I thought that I had all the time in the world to look at God from every angle and decide whether I could make peace with who I thought He was (at the time). I had "enjoyed" 4 years of telling God that I thought He was a big 'ole meanie, as though I could somehow punish him by telling him that I didn't like who He was- and that I wanted someone more loving and compassionate. (Of course, that seems beyond ridiculous NOW, since I know how loving God is. :) )

All of my rebelious foot-stomping was ended very quickly when I grew up in that moment that I opened my eyes and the doctor told me that my baby was dead. There were no more questions about whether *I* could accept Him or not, because I felt that I had been shown in irrefutable terms that it didn't matter how I felt- God was God. In my storm of emotions, my first thought was to scream at the doctors for not waiting to take Trystin off of life support before they could wake me up. No one thought to call for a pastor, because I had spent my time throwing a temper tantrum in God's direction. Can you understand the guilt that I have carried around? And now I am left to wonder if my own stupidity has in essence contributed to spiritual death of my own child.

I am in the very painful situation of believing that I have had a child die outside a covenantal relationship, and one within. Maybe that is why I have been trying to find any information that I could on the Lord knowing children before birth, and whether they have the ability to respond to Him in some fashion. I know that my feelings on a matter doesn't determine what truth is, and that is why I am talking about this, even though it hurts. Whether anyone has anything comforting or not to share, I welcome everyone's thoughts.There is nothing that anyone could say that could inflict such pain as the pain that my heart feels at the idea that I have somehow contributed to the spiritual death of my child because of my own stupidity.

[Edial]

A person cannot send another person to the Burning Lake.
People get in there when the reject Christ on an individual and personal basis.

Let's say a child dies because of parent's fault or sin.
Happens. It happened to David.

However, it does not mean that the soul of that child is lost.
It simply does not work this way.

Thanks,
Ed

[DaRev]

Psalm 139:13, "For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb."

[Jenna]

Oh ed, it isn't that I am saying that I believe I have dashed my child into hell, as if any of us has the power to do that to another. I think that is what confuses me about covenantal thinking. It makes no sense to me how my faith could impact my child, except in that I will actively pass on my love of God to my children as I teach them each day. For good or bad, my own faith cannot cause my child to believe or not believe- not really. So, it causes me to wonder at those who believe that children of unbelievers somehow are without hope. Why would God determine the destiny of one person based on the belief or disbelief of their ancestors? Aren't we all personally accountable? I know that we can suffer earthly consequences for the actions of those who have gone on before. Adam and Eve pretty much proved that one right out of the gate. However, I can't find any scripture that would cause me to believe that because we can inherit earthly death, we can inherit spiritual death.

At this point, I wonder how God's grace is applied to those who have never rejected him. I've always wondered just what children might know within the womb, that John might have leapt with Elizabeth's womb when Mary approached, pregnant with Jesus. Scripture says that the Lord knows a person before their birth, but does that mean that the child can also know Him?

With God being in control of life and death, it is just beyond me that He would create a life simply to destroy it. Being that God desires that all of us should be saved, it makes no logical sense to me that He would allow the conception and death of an infant and/or unborn if they truly had no hope of being with him in heaven.
Have I made sense? Do you understand what I am saying? (Sometimes I'm not sure if *I* follow me. :) )

[LutheranChick]

Jenna,
I am sorry that you must go through this uncertainty about the child you lost and I have been searching for words of comfort for you. It is true that the Bible says nothing as to what happens to the soul of the stillborn, or any infant who dies before being baptized. But even though you and your husband were possibly straying away from God at the time of your loss, you both came from Christian families, and I am sure that your unborn child had been prayed for- as were you. God hears all prayers, and in the matters of salvation, he does not say no. You absolutely have the hope that you will see your child again, in heaven.

There is a matter that I struggle with, as well. I am not ready to talk about it, but I do understand your fears, very well.

[dinkime]

:hug: :groupray: :hug: :groupray: :groupray:

[filosofer]

Boy, do I find myself in such an emotionally awkward place. As I've mentioned before, my husband and I have lost two sons. Our firstborn was concieved out of wedlock when I was 18 years old, and at the time I would have claimed myself to be wiccan. My boyfriend (now husband) was raised Catholic, but I would venture to say that he didn't openly proclaim Christ, though he did not deny Him either. As his girlfriend, religious issues between us didn't seem important, because he was "so far gone" as to have no problem with me and my worship of a false god.

I had been raised in the same lutheran church that we attend now as a family, but at the time- I just had no clue about the nature of God. Because I couldn't seem to get help in understanding Him, I was wide open for those who would tell me that I could basically pick and choose attributes that I could identify with in a god-figure, that that would be 'enough'. I felt as though I was always looking for God, but I kept opening all of the windows in my heart, instead of answering the Lord who was knocking at the door. :) I felt as though I were always seeking and never really finding Him.

As a teenager, I thought that I had all the time in the world to look at God from every angle and decide whether I could make peace with who I thought He was (at the time). I had "enjoyed" 4 years of telling God that I thought He was a big 'ole meanie, as though I could somehow punish him by telling him that I didn't like who He was- and that I wanted someone more loving and compassionate. (Of course, that seems beyond ridiculous NOW, since I know how loving God is. :) )

All of my rebelious foot-stomping was ended very quickly when I grew up in that moment that I opened my eyes and the doctor told me that my baby was dead. There were no more questions about whether *I* could accept Him or not, because I felt that I had been shown in irrefutable terms that it didn't matter how I felt- God was God. In my storm of emotions, my first thought was to scream at the doctors for not waiting to take Trystin off of life support before they could wake me up. No one thought to call for a pastor, because I had spent my time throwing a temper tantrum in God's direction. Can you understand the guilt that I have carried around? And now I am left to wonder if my own stupidity has in essence contributed to spiritual death of my own child.

I am in the very painful situation of believing that I have had a child die outside a covenantal relationship, and one within. Maybe that is why I have been trying to find any information that I could on the Lord knowing children before birth, and whether they have the ability to respond to Him in some fashion. I know that my feelings on a matter doesn't determine what truth is, and that is why I am talking about this, even though it hurts. Whether anyone has anything comforting or not to share, I welcome everyone's thoughts.There is nothing that anyone could say that could inflict such pain as the pain that my heart feels at the idea that I have somehow contributed to the spiritual death of my child because of my own stupidity.

My heart goes out to you. Any time guilt (whether true or false) is carried for any length of time, it becomes a heavy burden. You have carried it far too long. And there is good news for you! You can let God be God, and not worry what you, I, or anyone else thinks, writes, says. Two things need to be addressed for you personally:

First, in terms of any guilt or sin, realize that Jesus died for sin and guilt. Consider passages that speak to this:


Psalm 32:1-4
Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.

Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity,
and in whose spirit there is no deceit.

For when I kept silent, my bones wasted away
through my groaning all day long.

For day and night your hand was heavy upon me;
my strength was dried up as by the heat of summer. Selah

I acknowledged my sin to you,
and I did not cover my iniquity;

I said, I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,
and you forgave the iniquity of my sin.

Colossians 2:13-14
Even when you were dead because of your offenses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with him when he forgave us all of our offenses, having erased the charges that were brought against us with their decrees that were hostile to us. He took those charges away when he nailed them to the cross.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Jeremiah 31:34
For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Second, in terms of burdens, consider these:


Matthew 11:28-30
Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

2 Corinthians 12:9
My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


In Christ's love,
filo

[KimLCMS]

Hey Jenna,
I just wanted to say that I am praying for you. I don't know that anyone can give a definitive answer on this subject. I would like to believe that all infants and unborn children that die go to heaven. I had three miscarriages myself.

It is certainly true that God had a plan for your child in this life though. After all, his life and unfortunate death led you, his mother, to the Lord. Your son was an instrument of God.

I know that there isn't much that can be said to comfort a mother who is grieving, but know that my prayers and those of others here, I am sure, will be lifted up to the Lord for you.

Blessings to you,
Kim

[Jim47]

It is so nice to see friends coming to the aide of a friend who is grieving over for which there is no certain answer, except this. We can always trust in God's mercy and love. God's love is much greater then ours, as is His understanding. As Kim said God used your child to draw you back to Him. How wonderful is that. Your own child led you back to your Savior. Please thank God for that, and, give yourself comfort and be at peace with The Lord in knowing His love and forgivness has covered all man kind sins.

We know that little children can believe as evidenced in scripture. There is no reason to believe that The Lord did not also call your children to faith.


Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.



Ps 40:1 I waited patiently for the LORD?
he turned to me and heard my cry.
Ps 40:2 He lifted me out of the slimy pit,
out of the mud and mire;
he set my feet on a rock
and gave me a firm place to stand.
Ps 40:3 He put a new song in my mouth,
a hymn of praise to our God.
Many will see and fear
and put their trust in the LORD.
Ps 40:4 Blessed is the man
who makes the LORD his trust,
who does not look to the proud,
to those who turn aside to false gods.

[Mankin]

Children are innocent because they don't understand anything yet. God in his mercy would not condemn a newborn baby. He is a God of mercy and love.

[DaRev]

Children are innocent because they don't understand anything yet. God in his mercy would not condemn a newborn baby. He is a God of mercy and love.

One does not need to have any level of understand to sin. We are conceived and born into a state of rebellion against God and are thus deserving of damnation (Psalm 51:3). No one is born innocent. God is a God of mercy and love, but He is also a just God who condemns sin.

At the same time, one does not need any level of understanding to receive the gift of faith, which is given us by God through the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:41, Matthew 18:6).

[PreachersWife2004]

Children are innocent because they don't understand anything yet. God in his mercy would not condemn a newborn baby. He is a God of mercy and love.

The only "innocent" human that ever existed was Jesus.

We were all born with original sin.

Romans 7:18, 8:7
1 Corinthians 2:14
Psalm 51:5
Romans 5:12,19

all speak to this corruption which we inherited upon conception.

As much as we love to say that babies are innocent, they are not. Aside from the biblical standpoint, where logically then would children become not innocent? At what age would they then begin to "sin" as it were?

[Studeclunker]

In a way, this debate reminds me of the same about suicide. I went though counseling with three different pastors over five years after my wife took her own life. Fact remains, she died in sin. She was not in her right mind, though. Still...

Does Jesus' sacrifice atone for a sin he hadn't the time to repent from?

The same could be said for the newborn. This child is born in the sin inherited from, and the fault of, Adam.

Does the later conversion of the mother cover the children born (and lost) before that event? I mean, it covers the children alive at the time. :scratch:

It's truly a shame that the Apostle Paul didn't cover these two issues. He explained so much else. It seems that there was an assumption of knowledge here that could use clarification nowdays.
:sigh:

[Edial]

In a way, this debate reminds me of the same about suicide. I went though counseling with three different pastors over five years after my wife took her own life. Fact remains, she died in sin. She was not in her right mind, though. Still...

Does Jesus' sacrifice atone for a sin he hadn't the time to repent from?

The same could be said for the newborn. This child is born in the sin inherited from, and the fault of, Adam.

Does the later conversion of the mother cover the children born (and lost) before that event? I mean, it covers the children alive at the time. :scratch:

It's truly a shame that the Apostle Paul didn't cover these two issues. He explained so much else. It seems that there was an assumption of knowledge here that could use clarification nowdays.
:sigh:
Oh man.
Your wife committed suicide. Oh man.

I am not touching theology here.

HOWEVER, if Satan could tempt Jesus to jump off the roof (Mt.4:5) ... and he was able to resist, it means that if we are not able to resist to commit suicide, it does not "count" against us, since Christ was tempted in every way (FOR US) Heb.4:15,16, yet resisted (FOR US).

Thanks,
Ed

[Edial]

Oh ed, it isn't that I am saying that I believe I have dashed my child into hell, as if any of us has the power to do that to another. I think that is what confuses me about covenantal thinking. It makes no sense to me how my faith could impact my child, except in that I will actively pass on my love of God to my children as I teach them each day. For good or bad, my own faith cannot cause my child to believe or not believe- not really. So, it causes me to wonder at those who believe that children of unbelievers somehow are without hope. Why would God determine the destiny of one person based on the belief or disbelief of their ancestors? Aren't we all personally accountable? I know that we can suffer earthly consequences for the actions of those who have gone on before. Adam and Eve pretty much proved that one right out of the gate. However, I can't find any scripture that would cause me to believe that because we can inherit earthly death, we can inherit spiritual death.

At this point, I wonder how God's grace is applied to those who have never rejected him. I've always wondered just what children might know within the womb, that John might have leapt with Elizabeth's womb when Mary approached, pregnant with Jesus. Scripture says that the Lord knows a person before their birth, but does that mean that the child can also know Him?

With God being in control of life and death, it is just beyond me that He would create a life simply to destroy it. Being that God desires that all of us should be saved, it makes no logical sense to me that He would allow the conception and death of an infant and/or unborn if they truly had no hope of being with him in heaven.
Have I made sense? Do you understand what I am saying? (Sometimes I'm not sure if *I* follow me. :) )
Would God create life simply to destroy it?

Would a CREATOR of LIFE ITSELF create life so he could destroy it? :)

We should leave the matters of life and death to the Creator and put our hope in His love towards us.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[Luther073082]

Ok this a complete shot in the dark so if I'm making a mistake please tell me but since a baby can not explicitly reject Christ then would God's grace not extend to them.

The word was ment for those who could understand it and had access to it. And it seems to usually use accept or reject in reguards to Christ.

It doesn't seem to say anything about those who do not have access to the word. BUT in John it says that Christ came to save the WORLD although right after that it says those who belive, saved, those who reject, not saved. . .

To me the "world" seems to indicate everyone but using the passage right after it it seems to say "Everyone but those who reject Christ". The accept part Christ part to me is just a challenge to the reader. The reader is either a person who has already accepted or has a CHANCE to accept or reject. The baby can not read or understand in order to reject Christ, since that seems to be the only clear exception I would regard them as saved off the condition that Christ came to save the world but those who reject him.

And this also might extend to those who have not heard the word.

I also sort of agree with the statement that if God sends someone to hell without giving them the chance to accept him then he can not be a loving God as the person lacked the opprotunity to love God back. Its kind of like an infant to its parents. . . We love our infants even though they really don't love us back because they don't know love yet, they only know "This is the hand that feeds me." God loves the infant even though it is too small to love God.

Now we do not know when a child is damnable for rejecting Christ. But I would say that God knows and the answer to me is that person is damnable as soon as they can make a clear decision and understanding of the consequences to reject Christ themselves. We as humans can not know if someone has truely accepted or rejected Christ because we can not be inside a persons thoughts or emotions. God is the only one who can determine that to be true or not.

Am I wrong or unbiblical in any part of this logic?

[Jenna]

I just wanted to let you all know that I appreciate your comments. :) *hugs*

[KimLCMS]

I just wanted to let you all know that I appreciate your comments. :) *hugs*
God's blessings to you, our sister in Christ!