This is Most Certainly True. Martin Luther the Musical

[Zecryphon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN__LdCFQFU

I'm speechless.

[LutherNut]

That's hilarious!!!!! ^_^ ^_^ ^_^

[PreachersWife2004]

I didn't watch all the videos, but the ones that did really seemed to be making fun of Catholicism more than anything.

This is an ELCA college, so I'm not surprised in the least.

And yet people wonder why we really would prefer to take the L out of the ELCA.

[Zecryphon]

I didn't watch all the videos, but the ones that did really seemed to be making fun of Catholicism more than anything.

This is an ELCA college, so I'm not surprised in the least.

And yet people wonder why we really would prefer to take the L out of the ELCA.
Just how does the ELCA get away with still using that "L", anyway?

[PreachersWife2004]

Just how does the ELCA get away with still using that "L", anyway?

The skin of their teeth? :P

I think the only reason that I wouldn't go for it is that there are those in the ELCA who share the conservative views of LCMS or WELS...why they don't just become members of those synods is beyond me. But, since they don't, I guess let's not risk their ire. I could be way off here, I've never much cared for ELCA so I don't really think about them that much.

The videos are funny, but they do poke fun at a lot of we as Lutherans hold fast to, and I don't like that much.

[Melethiel]

That's awesome. ^_^
I think being able to poke fun at one's own beliefs is a good thing...

[DaRev]

I thought the one on indulgences was great!

[dinkime]

it is advertised on OldLutheran.com

[PreachersWife2004]

I thought the one on indulgences was great!

That's the one that I saw, first. I loved the last guy who went on and on about killing his family and thieving stuff, but then when he actually got his indulgence, he only professed to have jaywalked.

As far as making fun of what we believe...well...I agree to an extent. I guess this would go over a little better for me if it wasn't ELCA people behind it. There's a difference between making fun of something and outright mocking it, and part of that difference is who's doing it.

Don't get me wrong, I find the videos humorous, but I also find them a little bit offensive. I can't help but wonder who is going to see this show other than Lutherans and just getting a big ole kick out of it.

It's a hard thing to explain.

[synger]

I liked the other one better. On the side, the "Protestant Shuffle". Maybe it's because I spent so long as a Calvinist, and I've studied the Anabaptists. But them trying to get Luther to endorse their statements was hilarious to me.

[LutheranChick]

Just how does the ELCA get away with still using that "L", anyway?
I have been wondering about that for a long time.

[QuiltAngel]

I have not taken time to watch any of the videos yet. I did check out the website: http://martinluthermusical.com/story.html They do call it satire on the website, if that makes any difference.

I am going to wait to say anything else on it until I get a chance to watch the vids.

[Robinood65]

Hi,
I am one of the co-writers of the musical and I would like to point a few things out about who we are and what we hoped to achieve with the musical.

I am a conservative ELCA Lutheran whereas the co-writer is a non-demoninational Evangelical. Most everything in the musical is rooted in historical fact and an immense amount of research went into it's production.

As for the charge of making fun of Catholics, it is difficult to portray the insanity of the Vatican under Pope Leo X while still indicating that not all Popes (and especially not the resent ones) have had people jumping out of cakes and whatnot. Pope Leo X is purported to have said, "Since God has granted us the Papacy, we might as well enjoy it" and then proceeded to empty the treasury in about 2 years. He was a fun guy but was not talented at running a church. And he did have people jump out of cakes - we would not make that up.

As for Luther himself, you probably noticed his temper and profanity, and well, he had a temper and swore sometimes. That's historical fact. However, what we hoped to do with his character was to in spite of his obvious flaws and penchant for describing the world in terms of flatulance, make sure that his message, the Gospel message of being saved by grace through faith and not by works came through loud and clear. Luther was a great man with flaws like any of us, but in spite of them (and because of them) did a really important, God-ordained thing.

We also believe that laughing at ourselves is a good thing so long as the Gospel is not lost in the chaos. We do hope that you will consider coming to see the show and remember that this might be the only chance for some people to hear Ephesians 2:8 repeated in good faith. We purposefully included Bible verses wherever we could and tried not to be disrespectful to it (some things are sacred)

We apologize if we offended anyone and we hope that after looking at Luther's writings, the historical record, and then our work that you will see it as it is intended - a comedic historical satire embedded with the living Gospel.

We appreciate your discussion on the subject and I would appreciate any questions or comments that you would like to send us at info@martinluthermusical.com

Thanks!

[PreachersWife2004]

Robinood, thanks for coming and sharing that with us.

Like I said, I think the videos are funny.

I think for me the problem I have is that I hope to God that there aren't people that are searching for God coming to see the plays...granted, there might be that little spark for them, but I'd be more worried that what they see may cause them to stumble.

As I'm sure you've thought this out, well...that's where I will end my criticism.

[LilLamb219]

I enjoyed Martin in the tower the best!!! I was laughing so hard my husband came into the room (he's RC)! ;)

[Luther073082]

Darn it, a funny video about Luther and here I am on break at my work computer that doesn't have sound!

Guess I'll have to wait til I get home.

[Luther073082]

Ok that was funny. . .

[Radiata]

Oh wow. This was the most halarious thing I have ever seen.

[Luther073082]

Robinood, thanks for coming and sharing that with us.

Like I said, I think the videos are funny.

I think for me the problem I have is that I hope to God that there aren't people that are searching for God coming to see the plays...granted, there might be that little spark for them, but I'd be more worried that what they see may cause them to stumble.

As I'm sure you've thought this out, well...that's where I will end my criticism.

I hate to say this but you are worried about this when you are speaking about other church's not deserving of the title of "Lutheran"?

Besides I am sure new Christians will be well aware of the history of the protestant reformation and I would hope that they would understand that this video was made in jest.

[Radiata]

I hate to say this but you are worried about this when you are speaking about other church's not deserving of the title of "Lutheran"?

Besides I am sure new Christians will be well aware of the history of the protestant reformation and I would hope that they would understand that this video was made in jest.I wouldn't be so sure. I only started learning about the reformation when I saw Luther the movie between 1 and 2 years ago. Since then, I have been learning, but I have talked to many people about this subject and the majority don't know anything about it. It's like it's been wiped off the face of history, only to be found when looked for. Many christians don't look for it. They are just interested in Current events and biblical truths.

[Zecryphon]

I hate to say this but you are worried about this when you are speaking about other church's not deserving of the title of "Lutheran"?

Besides I am sure new Christians will be well aware of the history of the protestant reformation and I would hope that they would understand that this video was made in jest.
"Besides I am sure new Christians will be well aware of the history of the protestant reformation and I would hope that they would understand that this video was made in jest."

How can you be sure of this? I've become convinced in my travels through various churches, that most Protestants don't even understand where the name Protestant came from or what was being protested at the time of Luther's reformation or even who Luther was. I never heard of Luther in any Protestant church I ever attended. I did hear a lot about a guy named Rick Warren though! LOL

[Zecryphon]

I wouldn't be so sure. I only started learning about the reformation when I saw Luther the movie between 1 and 2 years ago. Since then, I have been learning, but I have talked to many people about this subject and the majority don't know anything about it. It's like it's been wiped off the face of history, only to be found when looked for. Many christians don't look for it. They are just interested in Current events and biblical truths.
Well a good test of your theory would be to ask Christians what significant event occured on October 31, 1517. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that most will say that was the first harvest festival, cuz "true" Christians don't celebrate Halloween! LOL

[PreachersWife2004]

If you even ask some "not-so-new" Christians who Martin Luther is, you might get an answer like

"Oh, he's that black guy that fought for civil rights, right?" :doh:

And yeah, I question ELCA's continued use of the word Lutheran.

[C.F.W. Walther]

Is this something like "Springtime for Hitler" in Mel Brook's movie "The Producers"?

Actually I like the "indulgence" one. My connection is slow so I'll look at the other ones later.

[Luther073082]

If you even ask some "not-so-new" Christians who Martin Luther is, you might get an answer like

"Oh, he's that black guy that fought for civil rights, right?" :doh:

And yeah, I question ELCA's continued use of the word Lutheran.

Well then we certainly need to educate people on their protestant roots. I guess having converted while I was at Valpo and being surrounded with a lot of PK's and taking a couple theology courses I just kind of assumed that people at least knew a small amount about the history of it.

I think your questioning comes from the liberal fringe which seems to be vocal minority within the ELCA IMO. I cringe cause every time they have a national meeting the homosexual marriage thing comes up and it always gets shot down. I know my church won't be performing homosexual marriages any time soon.

Honestly if that ever passed it would probably split ELCA into its predeccessor churches.

[PreachersWife2004]

I'm not sure they're the vocal "minority" these days, though.

I've often maintained, in a loving way, that the term "conservative ELCA" is an oxymoron. To be honest, though, I've never really met a conservative ELCA person. All the family members I have in the ELCA are totally liberal and almost anti-bible. Course, my family is full of crazy people, too, all from the same side, so that could factor in as well.

Pretty soon though those that are conservative ELCAns will have to leave their synod because the synod itself is leaning more and more towards the liberal side of things. It does drive me nuts, too, that any time ELCA does something, like sign something with the RCC, it is reported in the news that LUTHERANS signed it, with no mention of synods whatsoever. It makes it difficult when my RCC friends challenge me by saying "hey, YOUR church signed this document with us...do you go against what YOUR church believes?"

Ah...but this is digression at its best. I liked the clips that I saw, but I'm Lutheran so it's easy for me to laugh at them.

[Melethiel]

I've often maintained, in a loving way, that the term "conservative ELCA" is an oxymoron. To be honest, though, I've never really met a conservative ELCA person.
:wave:

[PreachersWife2004]

:wave:

Hi Mel!

Someday I'll have to sit down with you and set you on the right path!! ;) Just kidding, of course. But I do wish to have discourse with you on the subject.

Just not at 11:30pm. :sleep:

[Melethiel]

Hi Mel!

Someday I'll have to sit down with you and set you on the right path!! ;) Just kidding, of course. But I do wish to have discourse with you on the subject.

Just not at 11:30pm. :sleep:
Ha, not much to discourse on...I'm not really tied to any particular synod. I attend an ELCA church at the moment for various reasons, but I'd probably actually be a better fit in the LCMS.

[Luther073082]

I'm not sure they're the vocal "minority" these days, though.

I've often maintained, in a loving way, that the term "conservative ELCA" is an oxymoron. To be honest, though, I've never really met a conservative ELCA person. All the family members I have in the ELCA are totally liberal and almost anti-bible. Course, my family is full of crazy people, too, all from the same side, so that could factor in as well.

Pretty soon though those that are conservative ELCAns will have to leave their synod because the synod itself is leaning more and more towards the liberal side of things. It does drive me nuts, too, that any time ELCA does something, like sign something with the RCC, it is reported in the news that LUTHERANS signed it, with no mention of synods whatsoever. It makes it difficult when my RCC friends challenge me by saying "hey, YOUR church signed this document with us...do you go against what YOUR church believes?"

Ah...but this is digression at its best. I liked the clips that I saw, but I'm Lutheran so it's easy for me to laugh at them.

I agree the fact that there are three Lutheran churchs would be confusing to most outsiders.

I'm personally not bothered by signing agreements with the catholics or full communion relationships with some of the churchs. (I don't like that we are full communion with the UCC and the Episicpalians).

But a lot of that has been born out of the fact having been an atheist that unless someone is way far out there in left field I would rather work with them and show semi-unity then to ignore them.

Here is the thing though, I really don't fit perfectly into either the LCMS or the ELCA.

ELCA Likes:
Works better with other "non-Lutheran" churchs.
OPEN COMMUNION
And does not throw a blanket confession over the book of concord.
Less restriction on views

Dislikes:
Highly liberal voices
To a small extent women as pastors - Give rev the credit he convinced me on that one
Too little restriction on views - On this I'd really like a happy medium between ELCA and LCMS and it just isn't there.

LCMS Likes:
Restriction on biblical views
Holds to a solid doctrine
A lot less variety on the views within the church
Only male pastors

Dislikes:
Too much restriction on views (again my happy medium)
CLOSED COMMUNION
Holds too close to the book of concord. I belive somewhere in the book it argues that the pope is the anti-christ. While in practice I have not heard them teach this I really can not condone this view.
And does not work well with other churchs

(don't mean to be critical but the LCMS I have not found to be very eccumenical)

So anyways thats my problem in selecting churchs. Right now I'm in ELCA church, it has only male pastors right now and the the local LCMS churchs are very very unfriendly and highly conservative while my ELCA church is on the right side of the ELCA spectrum.

If I could find a LCMS church with open communion, especially if the local ELCA church is on the luney left of the spectrum then I'd probably attend that one.

[PreachersWife2004]

The whole idea of the PAPACY being the Anti-Christ is centered around biblical definitions of the Anti-Christ.

Here is a link (http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuItem_itemID=8929&cuTopic_topicID=20)to a WELS Q&A that really explains the Anti-Christ quite well, with scripture and Luther's words.

Closed communion is done out of love, not exclusion. It's a tough one for people. I've seen many people get very upset, heated, aggravated, etc. when they are told that they cannot take communion at our church because they are not WELS, ELS or any church that is in fellowship with WELS.

As always, I do not speak for LCMS, but I believe that WELS isn't looking to be ecumenical because we know it's just not possible. We yearn and hope for the salvation of all, however, and all are invited to attend our churches and bible studies.

[DaRev]

Ha, not much to discourse on...I'm not really tied to any particular synod. I attend an ELCA church at the moment for various reasons, but I'd probably actually be a better fit in the LCMS.

I knew there was hope for you. :thumbsup:

[Luther073082]

In my reading of the scripture Paul tells us to examine ourselves, not the church to examine us for us. That is what we call JUDGING.

And if you are looking for salavation for all you'd learn to work with those you disagree with. Because I'll tell you guys I am Lutheran very very very distant second to being Christian.

Honestly saving one more soul is worth disolving all of Lutheranism. We are the body of Christ all Christians. Compaired to the entire body of Christ, Lutheranism is absolutly meaningless to me. To add one more brother or one more sister to the body of Christ you can burn down my church that has stood for 150 years. In fact you can burn down every Lutheran church building in the world and dissolve Lutheranism as we know it to save one more soul. Doctrines are just our way of reading the bible that we teach to our sunday school students.

IMO souls are more important then doctrines. So yes I will encourage people to go to that non-denominational church that we sold an abandoned church building to.

And honestly I'd be happy if my parents would go to a church who's offical position is all Lutheran's are the anti-Christ as long as they belive in Jesus. Heck they can go to a church who's offical position is that I'm the anti-christ if it would only save their souls. A week ago I told God I'd trade my soul and he could take me now if it would just make Christians out of my family.

Does anyone else here have a loved one that is on the road to hell or is in hell that understand what I mean?

I guess my point with this semi-rant is when was the last time on this forum anyone discussed sharing their faith? Or having good fellowship time with "heretics" even.

One more soul, one more soul for Jesus.

[Radiata]

In my reading of the scripture Paul tells us to examine ourselves, not the church to examine us for us. That is what we call JUDGING.

And if you are looking for salavation for all you'd learn to work with those you disagree with. Because I'll tell you guys I am Lutheran very very very distant second to being Christian.

Honestly saving one more soul is worth disolving all of Lutheranism. We are the body of Christ all Christians. Compaired to the entire body of Christ, Lutheranism is absolutly meaningless to me. To add one more brother or one more sister to the body of Christ you can burn down my church that has stood for 150 years. In fact you can burn down every Lutheran church building in the world and dissolve Lutheranism as we know it to save one more soul. Doctrines are just our way of reading the bible that we teach to our sunday school students.

IMO souls are more important then doctrines. So yes I will encourage people to go to that non-denominational church that we sold an abandoned church building to.

And honestly I'd be happy if my parents would go to a church who's offical position is all Lutheran's are the anti-Christ as long as they belive in Jesus. Heck they can go to a church who's offical position is that I'm the anti-christ if it would only save their souls. A week ago I told God I'd trade my soul and he could take me now if it would just make Christians out of my family.

Does anyone else here have a loved one that is on the road to hell or is in hell that understand what I mean?

I guess my point with this semi-rant is when was the last time on this forum anyone discussed sharing their faith? Or having good fellowship time with "heretics" even.

One more soul, one more soul for Jesus.
Finally. Someone who agrees with me. Just make sure that when you disolve the Lutheran church, make sure that it's members stay Christian.

[LilLamb219]

I guess my point with this semi-rant is when was the last time on this forum anyone discussed sharing their faith? Or having good fellowship time with "heretics" even.



There are the Outreach forums here on CF. Give them a try some time. I used to haunt them frequently before the mod job overcame my life :(

[Luther073082]

My point is it feels like doctrines on this board have become too important to a lot of people. My doctrine is just the way I have of reading and understanding God's word.

I think if you look in the gospels Jesus has a few things to say about people too caught up in doctrines. But yet the two conservative braches of Lutheranism in the United States still refuse to work with anyone but eachother.

The finger that is conservative Lutheranism has decided to sever itself from the body of Christ.

[DaRev]

My point is it feels like doctrines on this board have become too important to a lot of people. My doctrine is just the way I have of reading and understanding God's word.

I think if you look in the gospels Jesus has a few things to say about people too caught up in doctrines. But yet the two conservative braches of Lutheranism in the United States still refuse to work with anyone but eachother.

The finger that is conservative Lutheranism has decided to sever itself from the body of Christ.

If by "the two conservative branches of Lutheranism in the United States" you mean the LCMS and the WELS, the fact is the WELS will NOT work with the LCMS because the LCMS insists on working with the ELCA (whom the LCMS doesn't even consider an orthodox Lutheran church body).

The Word of God IS the doctrine of the Church. And of course we are going to defend the doctrine of the Church against those who would pervert it or ignore it. That's what we, as the Church, are called to do.

[Luther073082]

If by "the two conservative branches of Lutheranism in the United States" you mean the LCMS and the WELS, the fact is the WELS will NOT work with the LCMS because the LCMS insists on working with the ELCA (whom the LCMS doesn't even consider an orthodox Lutheran church body).

The Word of God IS the doctrine of the Church. And of course we are going to defend the doctrine of the Church against those who would pervert it or ignore it. That's what we, as the Church, are called to do.

Since when does the LCMS work with the ELCA? The 2 LCMS churchs in our community want nothing to do with us even though every other church in the area works with us just fine.

As far as doctrines go, I just think its pretty arrogent of anyone to belive that their doctrine is absolutly perfect and 100% true in every way. If thats true I'm sure that if you need to defend the doctrine then you can go to plenty of debates where other protestants and evangelicals are just waiting to find out how false their doctrines really are. When Paul was speaking about doctrines to Timothy how do we also know he was not speaking about much larger subversions of the teachings of Christ? Because it seems to me that I havn't seen anything from Paul that involves any kind of overly complex doctrine which we have today. In fact in 1 Tim Paul mentions these guys as mis-using the law and not bringing it within the context of Christ. But if you look thats a very easy doctrine to grasp for the most part.

My guess is you had people who where trying to take Christianity back more towards a Jewish sect then its own faith.

But the main thing is the point of the Gospel is love and endless debates about doctrinal purity do not spread love but destroy it. And really they don't spread doctrinal purity either as you are not going to convince very many people.

Blessed are the peacemakers.

[Melethiel]

Since when does the LCMS work with the ELCA?
Lutheran World Relief, just off the top of my head.

[Luther073082]

Lutheran World Relief, just off the top of my head.

Oh no they are cooperating in an effort to help take care of those in need!

The horror!!!! If that kind of cooperation ticks the WELS off to where they won't work with the LCMS then seriously I'd like to know what gospel they are reading. Because the 4 gospels I read Jesus seems like a "Help others" kind of guy.

[DaRev]

Lutheran World Relief, just off the top of my head.

The LCMS and ELCA work together in a number of areas. There are a number of RSO's (Recognized Service Organizations) where the LCMS cooperates with the ELCA. There are also a number of schools that are run jointly by the LCMS and the ELCA.

[QuiltAngel]

As long as we don't have Altar and Pulpit fellowship with ELCA, we won't be "working with" ELCA. That is why you don't see it happening on the local level.

The LCMS has talked with ELCA for some time now, but have not been able to establish Altar and Pulpit fellowship.

As has been said above, they do work together on things like Lutheran World Relief.

As far as Protestants knowing about Luther and the Reformation, they don't know. As has been pointed out, when you say Martin Luther to people, they think one is talking about the Black Man who marched for civil rights. I was raised in the Presbyterian church and we did not learn about Luther at all. The only reason I knew anything about Lutherans was because my grandparents were Lutheran.

The fact that you went to Valpo puts you at a level of learning about Luther and Lutherans that many of our people don't have. Yes, our Pastors talk about him, but when you attend a Lutheran University, you do learn so much more. Many people in our church can tell you that Luther was involved in the Reformation and because of that the Lutheran church was born.

I saw somewhere on this thread that a poster wrote three Lutheran churches, but there are many more than three. Anytime Lutherans are mentioned in the news, we are all lumped together as has been stated previously. That is very frustrating for many of us. We have been asked about the Lutheran fellowship with other denoms which we then have to tell the person asking that there are many Lutheran Synods and the one we belong to is not a part of that fellowship.

[DaRev]

As long as we don't have Altar and Pulpit fellowship with ELCA, we won't be "working with" ELCA. That is why you don't see it happening on the local level.

The LCMS has talked with ELCA for some time now, but have not been able to establish Altar and Pulpit fellowship.

The ELCA would have to change a LOT of things before that would ever happen.

[QuiltAngel]

The ELCA would have to change a LOT of things before that would ever happen.


This is most certainly true.

[PreachersWife2004]

Working with ELCA is a minor issue when it comes to doctrinal issues that keep us from being in fellowship with LCMS. If you want more information as to why we are not in fellowship with LCMS, feel free to look at the WELS site, www.wels.net (http://www.wels.net) and visit the Q&A section.