Does Salvation = Entering the Kingdom?

[A_Pioneer]

Why does Yeshua never speak of them in the same paragraph?

The requirements are surely different.

Wasn't the ones invited to the wedding feast all invited?
Didn't they all respond?
Doesn't this equate to salvation?
Then we see the one who had No Wedding Garment, He came, showed his invite, came in. How can we not equate him as saved?
When the King came in, he found a fly in the ointment!
A man with no wedding garment.
Why was he thrown to "outer darkness?"

To me this is salvation, you answer the "Call" and come as the Melody, "Just as I am" But then the rules suddenly change and I who had come with an invitation in hand and my Sunday best and I am flung into outer darkness.

Doesn't this smack as "Shema v'Shamar!

Any thoughts? :confused:

[nasa1]

Hi Pioneer...The main point is, the man had no wedding garment. Ther are many people who like to hang out with the chosen believers, but who also do not want to accept Yeshua. The man in the parable obviously liked to fellowship with the believers, but he was not one of them, for everyone who believes in Yeshua becomes a part of the brideThere are many people who like to hang out with believers and yet have no desire to become one of them officially.The point is: only being a part of the Bride of Yeshua is acceptable in the eyes of G-d.

[visionary]

When I first accept Yeshua into my heart, I received salvation from the wiles of the world,... but that is not the final salvation, where sin will never bother me again in the Lord's kingdom. During the way, here on earth, there will be many moments in which the Lord will have to rescue my hide, and my soul... and each of them are the works of my savior. Each time He saved me fom something, someone, or some hold that sin had on me, it was for my salvation. So to me salvation is the whole process, and we can opt in or out at any time, but the final salvation is one that we have to reach the point where there is nothing on this earth that hold us here any more.

[A_Pioneer]

Hi Pioneer...The main point is, the man had no wedding garment. Ther are many people who like to hang out with the chosen believers, but who also do not want to accept Yeshua. The man in the parable obviously liked to fellowship with the believers, but he was not one of them, for everyone who believes in Yeshua becomes a part of the brideThere are many people who like to hang out with believers and yet have no desire to become one of them officially.The point is: only being a part of the Bride of Yeshua is acceptable in the eyes of G-d.
Thank you for pointing that out. But where is a wedding garment spoken of as a necessary article? This is never before mentioned. Why are my Sunday Best not a wedding garment?
Shalom

[A_Pioneer]

When I first accept Yeshua into my heart, I received salvation from the wiles of the world,... but that is not the final salvation, where sin will never bother me again in the Lord's kingdom. During the way, here on earth, there will be many moments in which the Lord will have to rescue my hide, and my soul... and each of them are the works of my savior. Each time He saved me fom something, someone, or some hold that sin had on me, it was for my salvation. So to me salvation is the whole process, and we can opt in or out at any time, but the final salvation is one that we have to reach the point where there is nothing on this earth that hold us here any more.
Shalom Vis,
"When I first accept Yeshua into my heart, I received salvation from the wiles of the world" I agree, that salvation is thru faith and it seems to be a permanant part of a believers life. But the other parts of salvation you seem to be speaking of, I don't recall a scripture that supports that. Could you please give me your scripture?
I do believe Yeshua in his aggadahs is making things known, but this to my knowledge is the first time it is spoken of.
So don't we need some background in Hebrew wedding?
With so little information it is hard to draw a firm conclusion to his story, is it not?
Any additions?

Shalom.

[HadassahSukkot]

Thank you for pointing that out. But where is a wedding garment spoken of as a necessary article? This is never before mentioned. Why are my Sunday Best not a wedding garment?
Shalom
Just a thought... one's wedding garment used to be the Kittel of old that was worn for all the high holy days.... everyone following the Torah of G-d had one...

Observances and teachings have since drifted, so we don't have much for an example in the believing community (Christian or Messianic - in general) so that we reflect on this with the proper understanding.

I recall the passage:

Ecc 9:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Ecc&chapter=9&verse=8&version=kjv#8)
Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.


What garments?

Everyday garments weren't white..


And another passage comes to mind:

Revelation 3
“Write this letter to the messenger of the assembly in Sardis. This is the message from the one who has the sevenfold Spirit of God and the seven stars: “I know all the things you do, and that you have a reputation for being alive—but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what little remains, for even what is left is almost dead. I find that your actions do not meet the requirements of my God.3 Go back to what you heard and believed at first; hold to it firmly. Repent and turn to me again. If you don’t wake up, I will come to you suddenly, as unexpected as a thief.
4 “Yet there are some in the assembly in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes with evil. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 All who are victorious will be clothed in white. I will never erase their names from the Book of Life, but I will announce before my Father and his messengers that they are mine.
6 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the assemblies.


IMHO, if we are doing as we should, a wedding garment wouldn't just be a "nessisary garment", it would always be ready for when it is needed, always washed and white.

Every feast, and every wedding is a shadow (practice) for a larger display that will soon be coming.

[visionary]

http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/1087

In traditional Jewish literature marriage is actually called kiddushin, which translates as "sanctification" or "dedication." "Sanctification," indicates that what is happening is not just a social arrangement or contractual agreement, but a spiritual bonding and the fulfillment of a mitzvah, a Divine precept. "Dedication," indicates that the couple now have an exclusive relationship, that involves total dedication of the bride and groom to each other, to the extent of them becoming, as the Kabbalists state, "one soul in two bodies."

[HadassahSukkot]

Yep. My husband and I did this, and the ketubah signing 1 year prior to us signing our civil wedding paperwork, 9 months before our actual wedding.

It really does give a picture of one's intentions, and the design of scripture when you see that/experience that one on one played out...

[A_Pioneer]

Just a thought... one's wedding garment used to be the Kittel of old that was worn for all the high holy days.... everyone following the Torah of G-d had one...

Observances and teachings have since drifted, so we don't have much for an example in the believing community (Christian or Messianic - in general) so that we reflect on this with the proper understanding.This is good. We need a Hebrew background to understand all that we read.

I recall the passage:

Ecc 9:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Ecc&chapter=9&verse=8&version=kjv#8)
Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.


What garments?

Everyday garments weren't white..Correct, but this wedding garment is special, outside of festival garments.

And another passage comes to mind:

Revelation 3
“Write this letter to the messenger of the assembly in Sardis. This is the message from the one who has the sevenfold Spirit of God and the seven stars: “I know all the things you do, and that you have a reputation for being alive—but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what little remains, for even what is left is almost dead. I find that your actions do not meet the requirements of my God.3 Go back to what you heard and believed at first; hold to it firmly. Repent and turn to me again. If you don’t wake up, I will come to you suddenly, as unexpected as a thief.
4 “Yet there are some in the assembly in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes with evil. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 All who are victorious will be clothed in white. I will never erase their names from the Book of Life, but I will announce before my Father and his messengers that they are mine.
6 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the assemblies.These do not equate to the wedding garment Yeshua is refering to. It is very important to stay away from sin and remain holy, he is speaking about an important event, special and my question is this seems new to a Western Christian, but is it new?
IMHO, if we are doing as we should, a wedding garment wouldn't just be a "nessisary garment", it would always be ready for when it is needed, always washed and white. In this verse Yeshua makes it nessecary.


Every feast, and every wedding is a shadow (practice) for a larger display that will soon be coming.
Yes, but this doesn't quite fill the bill in this case, there is much more to it than just keeping yourself away from sin. Good answers, but doesn't answer the "Wedding Garment" that keeps one from "outer darkness."

Shalom

[A_Pioneer]

http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/1087

In traditional Jewish literature marriage is actually called kiddushin, which translates as "sanctification" or "dedication." "Sanctification," indicates that what is happening is not just a social arrangement or contractual agreement, but a spiritual bonding and the fulfillment of a mitzvah, a Divine precept. "Dedication," indicates that the couple now have an exclusive relationship, that involves total dedication of the bride and groom to each other, to the extent of them becoming, as the Kabbalists state, "one soul in two bodies."
This is good, but doesn't go to the heart of the question.
It is more to the beginning scripture about taking a wife.
To most folks in America, they have very limited knowledge of a Hebrew wedding and I think that this is the key and the substance to the verses. This wedding is Ultra Important and a once in a lifetime event. I know it is preached by some learned Preachers, but the emphisis is not on the the question I asked.

Shalom

[Charles YTK]

I have read that the wedding Garment was provided for the guests by the father. There was no excuse for not having a wedding garment. It was totally obvious they were not invited if they had no Garment, and if the Garment was soiled it was posing the question as to what became of the garment provided.

Our "Righteousness" is provided by God through Messiah. He gives us a new nature, a new life like the wedding garment.

In the older traditions of the wedding shown in the Talmud ther was a festival of the brides dance. You may find it interesting. I will look for it and post it

[HadassahSukkot]

This is true Charles, I had forgotten about the older history I had been reading earlier in the year.

This was an option we had considered for the men in the congregation who were coming for the wedding, but none of us had that kind of $.

I guess knowing that ahead of time (plus the general expected cost of a wedding), makes one realise how it is a lifetime of planning, rather than a ''Plan after they get engaged'' kind of thing...

[A_Pioneer]

Thanks Charles, that is a nice part of the issue and the article would be very welcome.
Todah rabah,
Shalom

[mpossoff]

Why does Yeshua never speak of them in the same paragraph?

The requirements are surely different.

Wasn't the ones invited to the wedding feast all invited?
Didn't they all respond?
Doesn't this equate to salvation?
Then we see the one who had No Wedding Garment, He came, showed his invite, came in. How can we not equate him as saved?
When the King came in, he found a fly in the ointment!
A man with no wedding garment.
Why was he thrown to "outer darkness?"

To me this is salvation, you answer the "Call" and come as the Melody, "Just as I am" But then the rules suddenly change and I who had come with an invitation in hand and my Sunday best and I am flung into outer darkness.

Doesn't this smack as "Shema v'Shamar!

Any thoughts? :confused:

What is salvation?

I was saved today coming to work when a car almost ran me over.

Or "I'm saved and I'm not going to hell.

When we cast in terms of "heaven" or "hell" we are putting our eyes far too low.

I want to go back to the Garden.

Marc

[Charles YTK]

Here is some pieces (not complete) from an article I wrote in 2001 on the Brides Dance, which I believe to be the "unknown festival" of the Gospels that has always been debated.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


DT 2: [13] Now rise up, said I, and get you over the brook Zered. And we went over the brook Zered. [14] And the space in which we came from Kadesh-barnea, until we were come over the brook Zered, was thirty and eight years; until all the generation of the men of war were wasted out from among the host, as the LORD sware unto them. [15] For indeed the hand of the LORD was against them, to destroy them from among the host, until they were consumed.


I have looked before at the festival of the "Brides Dance" as a possible prophetic indication of how the timing of the Lords return might work out for the church. A few days ago, I dug into the Talmud to get some more detailed information on this fesitval and found some more interesting connections.

As a review for those who do not know of this festival, when the nation of Israel was in the wilderness with
Moshe, there came a time when the full number of those who were to die and not enter the promised land was
complete, and God directed them to cross over into the land. God also lifted the restictions on marriage between the different tribes.



In celebration of this event in the years that followed, the marriagable women dressed up in white dresses on Tu
B'Av (15th of Av) and they danced and sang songs in the vinyards. The men who were looking for brides would
come and select those they wanted and a match was made. It is still done today in Israel (In some communities) . Remember that this all takes place on the aniversary of the command to turn and enter into the promised land, which is a picture of entering the coming Kingdom of Yeshua.


In my recent studies I discovered the following additional information:
This was also the time of the wood offerings. (Wood that was brought in by each tribe for Temple service.) the 15th of Av was designated for the all priest of "Zathoo Ben Yehudah" and those of unknown tribal affiliation. (Like the lost tribes of Israel or Gentile God fearers)

This wood represents, I think, the offering that we make in our giving of ourselves as a sort of burnt offering participation. Another dies for us, but we contribute to it. It is the bringing of our sinful nature to give it up to God. But this day was also the Festival of the Brides.

In preparation for the dancing, the woman are to wear white dresses. Now what I found out was that the dresses had to be borrowed. None could wear their own gowns. The Spiritual application of all this is that the bride must be prepared in righteousness,(white gown) but it is not their own, it comes from another. Our righteousness comes from another, Yeshua and is sort of Borrowed from Him, until we are glorified and set free from the flesh at the marriage of the lamb.

Now another intersting point is that even if the dress had been cleaned and stored in a chest, it still had to be immersed (Mikvah). All the Gowns have to be freshly immersed, washed, baptised. So before the celebration begins, there is only absolute purity. This is the cleaning the Church receives by the washing of the word, and perhaps our glorification when the last of our sinful flesh is removed.


As the women dance they sing. First the pretty ones among the maidens would say "Regard but beauty alone for women were made for beauty".

I think this represents the beauty of Holiness. Cetainly as the church is glorified, its holiness will become it's beauty.

And the Women of good family would say, "Rather look to good Family for women are made to bear children",

I think this speaks of the stability of faith. Those who are faithful are strong as one set upon a rock.


And the less favored maidens who were lacking in beauty and good family would say,"Make your selections only for the Glory of heaven, but provide liberally for us."
I think this speaks of wisdom, and humility and justice,and mercy, things that God looks for in all His people. Be assured, eventually all the brides were selected for marraige. All of this seems to be a picture of the preparation of the bride of Yeshua.

[Charles YTK]

This is true Charles, I had forgotten about the older history I had been reading earlier in the year.

This was an option we had considered for the men in the congregation who were coming for the wedding, but none of us had that kind of $.

I guess knowing that ahead of time (plus the general expected cost of a wedding), makes one realise how it is a lifetime of planning, rather than a ''Plan after they get engaged'' kind of thing...
Very true. In that ancient culture the contract for marriage was often made when the children were only 4 or 5 years old. So there was plenty of time to build the funds needed for the marriage and to present the essentials of a new life to the couple to wed. A great tradition in my opinion. Today we often marry for all the wrong reasons.

This information I am sharing comes from the Talmud but it explains the traditions that were current to the days of Yeshua and therefore help us to better understand the meaning of his words.

[Charles YTK]

Thanks Charles, that is a nice part of the issue and the article would be very welcome.
Todah rabah,
Shalom
Thank you Bob for your courtesy and receiving what I have to share.

[HadassahSukkot]

Thanks for that writeup on the Dancing Brides. I remember reading about that.

I find it very interesting.

And I do agree, that many do marry for all the wrong reasons.. I am fortunate that G-d alone picked out who I would marry, otherwise I would be quite miserable.
I couldn't have done it, and I know my parents are glad we have each other. (To be honest, I have the most "normal inlaws" of the entire family, excluding my own parents..and everyone at the wedding kept asking if they could keep mine. :D)

I also agree about the arranged marriages. I have seen many messianic parents turning towards this.. and I am interested to see how it turns out.

[A_Pioneer]

Boy, Charles that is good! Really goes to the issue. Folks who read it and apply that to the "Wedding Feast" will in no doubt see it from a new perspective. That was a big part of the thread, but not all.

Shalom

[A_Pioneer]

I have read that the wedding Garment was provided for the guests by the father. There was no excuse for not having a wedding garment. It was totally obvious they were not invited if they had no Garment, and if the Garment was soiled it was posing the question as to what became of the garment provided.

Our "Righteousness" is provided by God through Messiah. He gives us a new nature, a new life like the wedding garment.

In the older traditions of the wedding shown in the Talmud ther was a festival of the brides dance. You may find it interesting. I will look for it and post it


This is the acceptance of your "invitation" and coming to the feast, equates with salvation, although you have been invited to come and partake of the Kings feast, your Sunday Best is not what Yeshua and the King wants. Again the song "Just as I Am", I have come, yet to go inside there is an additional requirement and if you're not willing to submit to the "Tradition", it's "outer darkness".
Any thoughts?

[A_Pioneer]

What is salvation?

I was saved today coming to work when a car almost ran me over.

Or "I'm saved and I'm not going to hell.

When we cast in terms of "heaven" or "hell" we are putting our eyes far too low.

I want to go back to the Garden.

Marc
This reminds me of another song, can't remember the singer, but it goes like this, "Just give me a cabin just over the hilltop, where I'll never grow old." A humble statement and I am sure we all want that at least.
But, it goes on about "not needing the streets of Gold."

This is the other side of the coin.

Shalom

[Charles YTK]

This is the acceptance of your "invitation" and coming to the feast, equates with salvation, although you have been invited to come and partake of the Kings feast, your Sunday Best is not what Yeshua and the King wants. Again the song "Just as I Am", I have come, yet to go inside there is an additional requirement and if you're not willing to submit to the "Tradition", it's "outer darkness".
Any thoughts?
At the heart of it all is "Pick up your cross daily and follow him" and what this means is death to our old fleshy nature and doing what the spirit leads instead.

In our modern culture "Things" and "Lifestyle" take presedence over living by the spirit. This is not to say that we have to live in poverty. Asseticism was a heresy addressed by the Apostles. But we need to prioritize things differently. A man who has wealth in his righteousness is a man who is free to give it all away without looking back, if the Lord calls him to do so. Same for power, or influence, or even freedom. Whatever speaks to our flesh needs to be made back seat to Gods will working through us. Matt 10: [37] He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. [38] And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. [39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

I am not there yet. There are things in this world that I have trouble letting go of. As I pray, the Lord sometimes helps by taking them away from me so that they are no longer a factor. As I get older, and health vitality and good looks fade leaving less for vanity to live upon.

[A_Pioneer]

Thanks Charles, what you say is true and very important, but that is preached every Sunday in pulpits all over the Christian world. If you have missed the point of this thread, it is to teach Yeshua's message and it is a Hebrew message for all who would enter into the Kingdom. So with that in mind, lets go to the meat of his teaching. I think you understand the issue. So speak to the people.

Shalom

[Charles YTK]

John 3: [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

. . .Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


18: [36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

1 Cor 6: [9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

RO 14: [17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. [18] For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. [19] Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

[HadassahSukkot]

This reminds me of another song, can't remember the singer, but it goes like this, "Just give me a cabin just over the hilltop, where I'll never grow old." A humble statement and I am sure we all want that at least.
But, it goes on about "not needing the streets of Gold."

This is the other side of the coin.

Shalom
is that one a parody of "mansion over the hilltop" (A hymn)?

I remember Mansion over the hilltop from my church going days (miss that song actually)...

http://www.mamarocks.com/mansion_over_the_hilltop.htm

[mpossoff]

John 3: [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

. . .Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


18: [36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

1 Cor 6: [9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

RO 14: [17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. [18] For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. [19] Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Charles would like to get your take on some things.

First using the Sabbath as an example:

Now, from a Judaic perspective we know how important the Sabbath is and was. One who broke the Sabbath would at the least be cut off from his people, and at the worst, be put to death. Pretty serious.

And although if you stoned someone today for not keeping the Sabbath we would go to jail but isn't still unlawful in the Kingdom of God?

Now, we know that we have been redeemed from the curse, which requires our death. However, this does not release us from observance.

Are we in agreement with this without extra explanatory posts?

What about obedience?

According to scripture when you die you go to Paradise, could be Abraham's Bosom. It's where you go and 'rest' like you never rested before. You rest in Paradise so when Yeshua comes back as He's coming He takes all the spirits, the spirits that are departed from their bodies that have fallen asleep. He brings all those with Him that have fallen asleep(spirits) and they desend with Him to New Jerusalem. When His foot touches down, the 1st ressurection takes place. Where all of the righteous, their bodies are raised from the days of Adam and the spirits go right into the bodies in a 'twinking of an eye' and you get yourself a new body, a spiritual body.

Lets' use the Sabbath again as an example:

With that being said do those that were believers but didn't keep Torah be resurrected into new bodies that will keep the Sabbath?

Because according to scripture in the World to Come:

The prophet Isaiah describes a great pilgrimage going to Jerusalem. The pilgrims were not just Israelites. He saw people of ALL nations.

Isaiah said: "Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your dawn. Lift up your eyes and look about you: All assemble and come to you; your sons come from afar, and your daughters are carried on the arm"

ALL nations will pilgram to Jerusalem to worship the King, learn His Torah, and keep His Commandments.

In that day the whole world will be keeping Torah. All nations will make a pilgrimmage to Jerusalem because Jerusalem will be the capitol city of ALL nations. The kingdom of Israel will be universal. All men will serve the King of Israel according to the Torah of Israel.

Knowing that we will be keeping the biblical calendar in Messiah's Kingdom it is clear that keeping the calendar is part of Kingdom living. In that day ALL mankind will keep the Sabbath. When we sit down to eat with the Master, the menu options will certaintly not include shrimp or ham.

Wouldn't we do well to let the rule of the Kingdom dictate how we, servants of the King, live now?

In that day all will keep Torah. The Torah shall go forth from Zion, a light to ALL nations and a Law of ALL men.

If the Torah is the Law of the Kingdom, shouldn't all the subjects of the Kingdom obey that Law?

As the prophet Isaiah has said, shouldn't we turn our hearts toward that NOW?

Why wait until that day? If it's going to be as Isaiah said in that day why should we wait?

After all Yeshua's message was: Repent the Kingdom of Heaven is NOW

Now let's not get into Torah of the Kingdom stuff.

Let's stick with a Commandment that is rejected by the 'church' Shabbat.

With that being said do those that were believers but didn't keep Shabbat will
be resurrected into new bodies that will keep the Sabbath?

Or although if we stone a person for not keeping Shabbat according to the Law we would go to jail, it is still unlawful to break the Sabbath. One who brole the Sabbath was stoned. SERIOUS.

Stay with me here...If one does not desire fellowship with Him in this present age, why would want it in the World to Come? If one doesn't desire to keep the Sabbath now, why would they want to in the World to Come?


Marc

[A_Pioneer]

is that one a parody of "mansion over the hilltop" (A hymn)?

I remember Mansion over the hilltop from my church going days (miss that song actually)...

http://www.mamarocks.com/mansion_over_the_hilltop.htm
Exactlly! Thanks for the site info. I had forgotten, Mansion, it's been so long since I went to a Christian Church.

Thank you, maybe someone will jog my memory as to who sang the other.

Shalom

[Charles YTK]

Marc,

Yes I agree. We are already members of the New Covenant and as such are first fruits of the Kingdom of God even though our flesh bodies have not yet been redeemed. We are like the shieves of Shavuot, the early harvest awaiting the final harvest when Messiah returns. We should live according to God's law. God's law for the New Covenant and the Kingdom that is created in the New Covenant.

So yes as I have said so many times, we are to keep those laws that are in common with the Old Covenant Torah and expounded upon by Yeshua, the Apostles and the prophets. The important thing to realize too is that some of what the prophets describe will not and can not be followed until the Messiah returns. For example the sacrifices and the Zadokite priesthood. The term "in that day" qualifies those practices to be after Messiah returns. Then in that day all the nations will make pilrimage and will learn God's marvelous ways ect.

[mpossoff]

Marc,

Yes I agree. We are already members of the New Covenant and as such are first fruits of the Kingdom of God even though our flesh bodies have not yet been redeemed. We are like the shieves of Shavuot, the early harvest awaiting the final harvest when Messiah returns. We should live according to God's law. God's law for the New Covenant and the Kingdom that is created in the New Covenant.

So yes as I have said so many times, we are to keep those laws that are in common with the Old Covenant Torah and expounded upon by Yeshua, the Apostles and the prophets. The important thing to realize too is that some of what the prophets describe will not and can not be followed until the Messiah returns. For example the sacrifices and the Zadokite priesthood. The term "in that day" qualifies those practices to be after Messiah returns. Then in that day all the nations will make pilrimage and will learn God's marvelous ways ect.

Right and I agree.

You quoted some scripture and I'm not sure what you are implying.

John 3: [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

. . .Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


18: [36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

1 Cor 6: [9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

RO 14: [17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. [18] For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. [19] Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Let's talk about being born again. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

. . .Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Now I think we tend to separate salvation and obedience, actually they are inter-twined.

You said and I agree we are to keep those Laws common in the OT and expounded by Yeshua.

We agree on that.

So although someone might be born again and breaks the Sabbath that brings death how does this play to enter the World to Come?

Again breaking the Sabbath is serious. We might not 'see' the seriousness of breaking the Sabbath now in this world but in the Kingdom it's serious.

Now Sabbath is a 'weightier' command that brings death.

I'm using Sabbath as an example.

Marc

[Charles YTK]

Sabbath is important. All of God's instructions are important. But there are also priorities. When the Arabs attacked Israel in 73 I believe it was, in the Yom Kippur war, it was a high Sabbath. Yet men ran to their arms and to do battle still wearing their Tallits. Were they wrong in doing this? No. The law of survival and protecting life is a higher law than Sabbath.

We do not live for or serve the sabbath. Sabbath was given to us as a blessing. We are to refrain from servile work and earning a profit and building material wealth and trust that if we rest and appreciate what God has given us, he will prosper us sufficiently for our needs. We are no longer slaves to wealth or money or business. We serve God and trust him to be our supply and great reward.

If it is allowed by Messiah to go pull our animal out of the ditch on Sabbath, then it is OK to play ball with our kids, or to lend a helping hand to our neighbor who is in need. The law of preserving life and relieving suffering is a higher law in my opinion.

In Israel it is allowed to be a Doctor, medical worker, ambulance driver, EMT, policeman, fire-fighter ect, even on Sabbath and you are not considered breaking sabbath in doing these things. But the same people might frown upon you going to the beach and playing beach volley ball and working up a sweat in sport and family activity. So there has to be balance. That balance is provided by living in the spirit and allowing God to direct our lives.

[A_Pioneer]

John 3: [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

. . .Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


18: [36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

1 Cor 6: [9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

RO 14: [17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. [18] For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. [19] Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Charles, excuse my astonishment, but are we not, Messianic? You are speaking like a Church of Christ Minister!? My house is full of bibles and I cut my teeth on those scriptures and they do not change over the years.
Charles do you expect me to believe that someone who is saved is today, a spirit? One of your scriptures has Yeshua saying almost that. What I want you to do is, help me understand the "Hard Saying of Yeshua"! Not just quote him.

Shalom

[mpossoff]

Charles, excuse my astonishment, but are we not, Messianic? You are speaking like a Church of Christ Minister!? My house is full of bibles and I cut my teeth on those scriptures and they do not change over the years.
Charles do you expect me to believe that someone who is saved is today, a spirit? One of your scriptures has Yeshua saying almost that. What I want you to do is, help me understand the "Hard Saying of Yeshua"! Not just quote him.

Shalom

Charles Adam and Eve were kicked out of the real presence of God for disobedience.

You and I agree we are to keep those commands as specified.

As I said being born again and obedience are inter-twined, probaly the wrong expression.

If breaking a command that brings death does being born again mean that since you broke a commandment that brings death you will be able to enter the Kingdom.

In other words disobedience got Adam and Eve kicked out of the Garden.

When we cast in term being born again we are putting our eyes far too low.

Marc

[Charles YTK]

Bob,

There is a physical fulfillment of the Kingdom of God. It is promised in the scriptures and will be a reality when Messiah returns and establishes his throne on the earth. Until that time we who are saved and living in the New Covenant saved through faith in Yeshua, we are to live righteously before God as much as possible as if the Messiah were physically already here. Because he is in our hearts and teaches us his marvelous ways already We still wait for the redemption from this physical life and the glorified body that is no longer tempted to sinful nature. But none the less we live as much as possible as children of the Kingdom even now.

This is something the church of Christians does not see, because they wanted to take the Kingdom promised by God and redefine it as a new kind of Kingdom that replaced Israel (replacementism and dispensationalism) and the promises of God to them, and make by their own efforts a new Kingdom even taking up arms to bring it about by force, killing any who would not convert to their Roman religion. This is a historical fact and not slander on my part. This is what the crusades was about, and the inquisition and the genocide of the indiginous Americans.

We are to live according to the Torah as it was given by Yeshua which is the one that was written on the hearts of his followers. The redemption of the body comes later as does the physical Kingdom.

2 Thes 1: [4] So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [5] Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: [6] Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; [7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Paul expressed the struggle this way and I can relate to it.

Rom 7: [12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. [13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. [14] For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. [15] For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. [16] If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. [17] Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [18] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. [19] For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. [20] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [21] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. [22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

[Charles YTK]

Charles Adam and Eve were kicked out of the real presence of God for disobedience.

You and I agree we are to keep those commands as specified.

As I said being born again and obedience are inter-twined, probaly the wrong expression.

If breaking a command that brings death does being born again mean that since you broke a commandment that brings death you will be able to enter the Kingdom.

In other words disobedience got Adam and Eve kicked out of the Garden.

When we cast in term being born again we are putting our eyes far too low.

Marc
Yes I agree and understand that faith is active and requires us to act, to live, and to do th eworks of righteousness.

Only God can judge. Adam and Eve hid themselves from God. We do not. We come to God and confess our sins because we have confidence in the mercy of God through Messiah something that Adam and Eve did not yet know.

Here is how we have confidence and I think it should answer your questions and verify what you are saying.

1 John 3: [18] My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. [19] And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. [20] For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. [21] Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. [22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. [23] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. [24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

[A_Pioneer]

Okay Charles I have come to the point of the service and I admit to a sinfull life, repent ask Yeshua to direct my life and am baptized, would you agree I am saved.
Now may I go back and sit by my wife and sing Psalms and be happy?
But Yeshua, seems to say, "Wait a minuite, Bob, but if you don't want to end up like the guest in the verses, you need to do something!
Well Charles, I am just a 'hick from the sticks,' I am just like the guy who was pictured, "I'm speechless."
Help! Charles they are about to bind me!

Shalom

[mpossoff]

Yes I agree and understand that faith is active and requires us to act, to live, and to do th eworks of righteousness.

Only God can judge. Adam and Eve hid themselves from God. We do not. We come to God and confess our sins because we have confidence in the mercy of God through Messiah something that Adam and Eve did not yet know.

Here is how we have confidence and I think it should answer your questions and verify what you are saying.

1 John 3: [18] My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. [19] And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. [20] For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. [21] Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. [22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. [23] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. [24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

I got you Charles.

I have a 'zeal' if you will to help our christian brother and sisters to understand about keeping the Commandments .

You and I agree that we are to keep the commandments specified.

You said:

We are to live according to the Torah as it was given by Yeshua which is the one that was written on the hearts of his followers. The redemption of the body comes later as does the physical Kingdom.
My question is again what are the consequences for not living according to the Torah given by Yeshua?

Yes it's written on our hearts but can we agree we are to live according to the Torah given by Yeshua?

Are our christian brother and sisters living by the Torah and don't know it and deny it?

Is there a consequence for denying it and promoting that it's abolished?

How can we help them to see they are apart of the commonwealth of Israel, not the physical commonwealth?

Marc

[A_Pioneer]

Thank you Marc, that is the question I want answered.

[Charles YTK]

I can only offer my opinion here. Our salvation is evienced by the indwelling of the spirit in us. It is the mark placed upon the forehead of the redeemed in Ezekiels prophecy, Chapter 9.

Does this men that we all live 100% as we should? No, we all make mistakes and have struggles as our flesh tries to take cpontrol once again. That is why we must take up our cross daily and walk the old flesh man to the cross to be crucified with Messiah.

If we try to live right but fail and then repent, God forgives and restores us. If we blatantly rebell and refuse Gods will then there is no repentence and therfore no forgiveness and restoration.

One of the sages of Talmus was asked when should we repent? And the teacher said, a man should live however he wants and do whatever he wants and then on the day he is going to die, repent so that he has a place in the world to come. His surprised student asks,"But how can a man know what day he is going to die?" The teacher says, "He can not know this. And therefore we should always live in a continuous state of repentence."

Now isn't that what we are to do, walk humbly before God, seek his will repent of our sins, and ask for his strength? Forgive our sins as we forgive those who tresspass against us.

I think God knows that we are just weak flesh. Remember that Messiah took upon himself a flesh body with its weakness abd he knows and has sympathy for our struggle. He does not expect perfection. He expects our willingness to do his will, our devotion to walk in righteousness, our thirst for righteousness. We wil never see the perfection of this in our flesh. Because we are not Yeshua, not God in the flesh. We are faulted humans born under the curse of our nature. That is why Paul says Yeshua condemned sin in the flesh. Our bodies will eventually die and with it the sinful nature that is part and parcel of being human. Yet for now we need this flesh body, our earth suits, to live in this earth as we are called to do. So we borrow our flesh back for a time until the resurrection and the new Body is given. He does not expect us to be saved and then to kill ourselves so that we never sin again. He wants us to daily die to self and to begin again to live for him.

This is far different than many who think they are saved because they are members of a certain Christian denomination, or because they were born to a Christian family, or because they dress a certain way and never smoke or drink or because they once went to the nealing rail in Church with a tear in their eyes and repented and asked Jesus to be their savior. Salvation is not like a one time event. It is a one time choice followed by a daily or even a moment by moment choice to continue the path of righteousness. If we continue, even if we sin, he is faithful to forgive us and to cleanse us from our unrighteouness if we repent. So it is a matter of heart and choice. Not membership in a group or an ethnicity.

I don't really want to get involved in predestination and once saved always saved and all that. It is an endless argument. When I read the letters to the churches, even the worst of them are not condemned without hope. They are called to repentence and to living righteously according to God's will, and not according to man's religion or customs or traditions. We should live in a constant state of repentence, coupled with praise and thanksgiving.

This is far different from Christianity which says I accepted and I believe but now the law is abolished and I live however I want and I am set for heaven. Yeshua made it clear that salvation is the beginning of a walk that is sanctification. Many will say "Didn't we perform many miracles in your name and cast of demons in your name." And he says "Depart from me because I never knew you." He wants us to be in continuous relationship with him. He wants to know us personally, intimately, like husband and wife. This is why the law is written on the heart, so that we have the witness of righteousness to prick our consciences and to lead us to prayer, repentence and redemption.

[A_Pioneer]

I can only offer my opinion here. Our salvation is evienced by the indwelling of the spirit in us. It is the mark placed upon the forehead of the redeemed in Ezekiels prophecy, Chapter 9.

Does this men that we all live 100% as we should? No, we all make mistakes and have struggles as our flesh tries to take cpontrol once again. That is why we must take up our cross daily and walk the old flesh man to the cross to be crucified with Messiah.

If we try to live right but fail and then repent, God forgives and restores us. If we blatantly rebell and refuse Gods will then there is no repentence and therfore no forgiveness and restoration.

One of the sages of Talmus was asked when should we repent? And the teacher said, a man should live however he wants and do whatever he wants and then on the day he is going to die, repent so that he has a place in the world to come. His surprised student asks,"But how can a man know what day he is going to die?" The teacher says, "He can not know this. And therefore we should always live in a continuous state of repentence."

Now isn't that what we are to do, walk humbly before God, seek his will repent of our sins, and ask for his strength? Forgive our sins as we forgive those who tresspass against us.

I think God knows that we are just weak flesh. Remember that Messiah took upon himself a flesh body with its weakness abd he knows and has sympathy for our struggle. He does not expect perfection. He expects our willingness to do his will, our devotion to walk in righteousness, our thirst for righteousness. We wil never see the perfection of this in our flesh. Because we are not Yeshua, not God in the flesh. We are faulted humans born under the curse of our nature. That is why Paul says Yeshua condemned sin in the flesh. Our bodies will eventually die and with it the sinful nature that is part and parcel of being human. Yet for now we need this flesh body, our earth suits, to live in this earth as we are called to do. So we borrow our flesh back for a time until the resurrection and the new Body is given. He does not expect us to be saved and then to kill ourselves so that we never sin again. He wants us to daily die to self and to begin again to live for him.

This is far different than many who think they are saved because they are members of a certain Christian denomination, or because they were born to a Christian family, or because they dress a certain way and never smoke or drink or because they once went to the nealing rail in Church with a tear in their eyes and repented and asked Jesus to be their savior. Salvation is not like a one time event. It is a one time choice followed by a daily or even a moment by moment choice to continue the path of righteousness. If we continue, even if we sin, he is faithful to forgive us and to cleanse us from our unrighteouness if we repent. So it is a matter of heart and choice. Not membership in a group or an ethnicity.

I don't really want to get involved in predestination and once saved always saved and all that. It is an endless argument. When I read the letters to the churches, even the worst of them are not condemned without hope. They are called to repentence and to living righteously according to God's will, and not according to man's religion or customs or traditions. We should live in a constant state of repentence, coupled with praise and thanksgiving.

This is far different from Christianity which says I accepted and I believe but now the law is abolished and I live however I want and I am set for heaven. Yeshua made it clear that salvation is the beginning of a walk that is sanctification. Many will say "Didn't we perform many miracles in your name and cast of demons in your name." And he says "Depart from me because I never knew you." He wants us to be in continuous relationship with him. He wants to know us personally, intimately, like husband and wife. This is why the law is written on the heart, so that we have the witness of righteousness to prick our consciences and to lead us to prayer, repentence and redemption.
Charles, I too don't want to get into pre-destination.
My point is the difference in salvation and entering the Kingdom or salvation and being thrown into the outer darkness. It seems clear cut from my perspective that a person can be saved and still never enter the kingdom.
Yeshua made this point of outer darkness 'Three times'
so it seems to be a top priority with him.

I agree, to all you have said, they are what he wants, but not all he wants.

You posted the Dance info from the Talmud(your editorial) but either you are unaware that 'outer darkness is a Hebrew coined phrase, like treasure in heaven, some people would think Yeshua coined those phrases on the spot, or you did not want to walk down my path, which ever, I surely want to talk about this man coming to the wedding feast, with his invitation, presented it and came in and failed to have the right attire and was shown outer darkness.
I was pleased you entered the discussion, you are very learned and have a good way of presenting you view, but in this case I feel you have evaded the issue.
I do hope I am wrong, but that is the feeling I'm getting.

Shalom

CU on the first day.

[mpossoff]

I can only offer my opinion here. Our salvation is evienced by the indwelling of the spirit in us. It is the mark placed upon the forehead of the redeemed in Ezekiels prophecy, Chapter 9.

Does this men that we all live 100% as we should? No, we all make mistakes and have struggles as our flesh tries to take cpontrol once again. That is why we must take up our cross daily and walk the old flesh man to the cross to be crucified with Messiah.

If we try to live right but fail and then repent, God forgives and restores us. If we blatantly rebell and refuse Gods will then there is no repentence and therfore no forgiveness and restoration.

One of the sages of Talmus was asked when should we repent? And the teacher said, a man should live however he wants and do whatever he wants and then on the day he is going to die, repent so that he has a place in the world to come. His surprised student asks,"But how can a man know what day he is going to die?" The teacher says, "He can not know this. And therefore we should always live in a continuous state of repentence."

Now isn't that what we are to do, walk humbly before God, seek his will repent of our sins, and ask for his strength? Forgive our sins as we forgive those who tresspass against us.

I think God knows that we are just weak flesh. Remember that Messiah took upon himself a flesh body with its weakness abd he knows and has sympathy for our struggle. He does not expect perfection. He expects our willingness to do his will, our devotion to walk in righteousness, our thirst for righteousness. We wil never see the perfection of this in our flesh. Because we are not Yeshua, not God in the flesh. We are faulted humans born under the curse of our nature. That is why Paul says Yeshua condemned sin in the flesh. Our bodies will eventually die and with it the sinful nature that is part and parcel of being human. Yet for now we need this flesh body, our earth suits, to live in this earth as we are called to do. So we borrow our flesh back for a time until the resurrection and the new Body is given. He does not expect us to be saved and then to kill ourselves so that we never sin again. He wants us to daily die to self and to begin again to live for him.

This is far different than many who think they are saved because they are members of a certain Christian denomination, or because they were born to a Christian family, or because they dress a certain way and never smoke or drink or because they once went to the nealing rail in Church with a tear in their eyes and repented and asked Jesus to be their savior. Salvation is not like a one time event. It is a one time choice followed by a daily or even a moment by moment choice to continue the path of righteousness. If we continue, even if we sin, he is faithful to forgive us and to cleanse us from our unrighteouness if we repent. So it is a matter of heart and choice. Not membership in a group or an ethnicity.

I don't really want to get involved in predestination and once saved always saved and all that. It is an endless argument. When I read the letters to the churches, even the worst of them are not condemned without hope. They are called to repentence and to living righteously according to God's will, and not according to man's religion or customs or traditions. We should live in a constant state of repentence, coupled with praise and thanksgiving.

This is far different from Christianity which says I accepted and I believe but now the law is abolished and I live however I want and I am set for heaven. Yeshua made it clear that salvation is the beginning of a walk that is sanctification. Many will say "Didn't we perform many miracles in your name and cast of demons in your name." And he says "Depart from me because I never knew you." He wants us to be in continuous relationship with him. He wants to know us personally, intimately, like husband and wife. This is why the law is written on the heart, so that we have the witness of righteousness to prick our consciences and to lead us to prayer, repentence and redemption.

Charles are you implying that imputed righteousness 'is enough' to see and enter the Kingdom?

What about obedience?

Because you and I agree that we should keep the commands that we were talking about.

Disobedience bought spiritual death in the Garden.

Now are we saying that instead of obedience we can be born again and that will 'get us back to the Garden'?

We hear in the 'church' how we live today will determine where we are going when we die.

Know what that's true. If one does not desire to keep the Law in this present age, why would you want to in the World to Come? In other words it is written there will be Sabbath, feastdays and a Temple(Ezekial) and the Law will be kept.... if you don't desire to keep the Sabbath , feastdays, etc today how will you desire to keep the Sabbath, feastdays, etc in the World to Come?

Many will say "Didn't we perform many miracles in your name and cast of demons in your name." And he says "Depart from me because I never knew you."

Forget to post the whole scripture.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The lesson in what Yeshua said is that doing good deeds and not doing evil and being imputed with righteousnes are not enough. Keeping the law is necessary in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

These people did cast out devils and prophesised in His name so they were filled with the Spirit. But they worked iniquity or lawlessness.

Abraham was accoubted with righteousness but it was only when Abraham was obedient.

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws....

Whatever God says we will do BUT if you don't have faith you won't do what God says, you won't believe God just like the wilderness generation.

Marc

[mpossoff]

I can only offer my opinion here. Our salvation is evienced by the indwelling of the spirit in us. It is the mark placed upon the forehead of the redeemed in Ezekiels prophecy, Chapter 9.

Does this men that we all live 100% as we should? No, we all make mistakes and have struggles as our flesh tries to take cpontrol once again. That is why we must take up our cross daily and walk the old flesh man to the cross to be crucified with Messiah.

If we try to live right but fail and then repent, God forgives and restores us. If we blatantly rebell and refuse Gods will then there is no repentence and therfore no forgiveness and restoration.

One of the sages of Talmus was asked when should we repent? And the teacher said, a man should live however he wants and do whatever he wants and then on the day he is going to die, repent so that he has a place in the world to come. His surprised student asks,"But how can a man know what day he is going to die?" The teacher says, "He can not know this. And therefore we should always live in a continuous state of repentence."

Now isn't that what we are to do, walk humbly before God, seek his will repent of our sins, and ask for his strength? Forgive our sins as we forgive those who tresspass against us.

I think God knows that we are just weak flesh. Remember that Messiah took upon himself a flesh body with its weakness abd he knows and has sympathy for our struggle. He does not expect perfection. He expects our willingness to do his will, our devotion to walk in righteousness, our thirst for righteousness. We wil never see the perfection of this in our flesh. Because we are not Yeshua, not God in the flesh. We are faulted humans born under the curse of our nature. That is why Paul says Yeshua condemned sin in the flesh. Our bodies will eventually die and with it the sinful nature that is part and parcel of being human. Yet for now we need this flesh body, our earth suits, to live in this earth as we are called to do. So we borrow our flesh back for a time until the resurrection and the new Body is given. He does not expect us to be saved and then to kill ourselves so that we never sin again. He wants us to daily die to self and to begin again to live for him.

This is far different than many who think they are saved because they are members of a certain Christian denomination, or because they were born to a Christian family, or because they dress a certain way and never smoke or drink or because they once went to the nealing rail in Church with a tear in their eyes and repented and asked Jesus to be their savior. Salvation is not like a one time event. It is a one time choice followed by a daily or even a moment by moment choice to continue the path of righteousness. If we continue, even if we sin, he is faithful to forgive us and to cleanse us from our unrighteouness if we repent. So it is a matter of heart and choice. Not membership in a group or an ethnicity.

I don't really want to get involved in predestination and once saved always saved and all that. It is an endless argument. When I read the letters to the churches, even the worst of them are not condemned without hope. They are called to repentence and to living righteously according to God's will, and not according to man's religion or customs or traditions. We should live in a constant state of repentence, coupled with praise and thanksgiving.

This is far different from Christianity which says I accepted and I believe but now the law is abolished and I live however I want and I am set for heaven. Yeshua made it clear that salvation is the beginning of a walk that is sanctification. Many will say "Didn't we perform many miracles in your name and cast of demons in your name." And he says "Depart from me because I never knew you." He wants us to be in continuous relationship with him. He wants to know us personally, intimately, like husband and wife. This is why the law is written on the heart, so that we have the witness of righteousness to prick our consciences and to lead us to prayer, repentence and redemption.

Charles are you implying that imputed righteousness 'is enough' to see and enter the Kingdom?

What about obedience?

Because you and I agree that we should keep the commands that we were talking about.

Disobedience bought spiritual death in the Garden.

Now are we saying that instead of obedience we can be born again and that will 'get us back to the Garden'?

We hear in the 'church' how we live today will determine where we are going when we die.

Know what that's true. If one does not desire to keep the Law in this present age, why would you want to in the World to Come? In other words it is written there will be Sabbath, feastdays and a Temple(Ezekial) and the Law will be kept.... if you don't desire to keep the Sabbath , feastdays, etc today how will you desire to keep the Sabbath, feastdays, etc in the World to Come?

Many will say "Didn't we perform many miracles in your name and cast of demons in your name." And he says "Depart from me because I never knew you."

Forget to post the whole scripture.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The lesson in what Yeshua said is that doing good deeds and not doing evil and being imputed with righteousnes are not enough. Keeping the law is necessary in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

These people did cast out devils and prophesised in His name so they were filled with the Spirit. But they worked iniquity or lawlessness.

Abraham was accoubted with righteousness but it was only when Abraham was obedient.

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws....

Whatever God says we will do BUT if you don't have faith you won't do what God says, you won't believe God just like the wilderness generation.

Marc

[Charles YTK]

Here is what the Lord says:

Rev 22:[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. [15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Here is Pauls word on it:

[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. [12] All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Being a Christian sort of makes you lawless, in that you are not obeying God's law. But that does not necessarily make you an extortioner, a whoremonger, or a murderer, or a sexual pervert. Many in the Church do not even realize they are living outside of God's law. They think they are doing exactly what God requires of them, because that is what they have been told since they were first conscious of who God is.

I think that reading these verses shows us that lawlesness is not just a failure at keeping Sabbath correctly or not wearing tzitzi. (to make an example) It seems to be a deeper matter with more rebellious crimes most of which are causing harm to others or idolatry. I think that men who strive for righteousness or men who perceive themselves as righteous would judge others more harshly than God will. I think there is more mercy in God than what is in men.

The thing you both seem to want to hear is that salvation is a combination of faith AND works. However that is not the Gospel as we were given it. It says that we are saved by faith alone and not of works that any man should boast. However having been saved changes us so that righteous works begin to flow out from us because we know God personally. It changes us and we begin to produce fruit for God. Not to nail down our salvation but just the natural result of knowing God.

These who were performing miracles in the name of the Lord, you say they were spirit filled. I am not convinced. Because the works are not generated from their own righteouness but rather by the power of the name of Yeshua and his desire to lead men to salvation. One does not have to be saved or spirit filled to direct others to salvation. Th etestimony of anyone who proclaims that Yeshua is Messiah can be used by God to win souls. Even the fakey TV preachers with all their bad theology can point to th eLord and cause people to seek out salvation for themselves. Do you remember there was a man who was not saved and who was speaking about the Lord and casting out demons in the name of Jesus? Was this man saved? Was he in a living relationship with God through Messiah? There is no evidence he was. He only evoked the power of the name.

LK 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. [50] And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

When we stand before the throne of judgment as all men shall do, we are not judged for salvation by our works. We are given reward according to our works, but our eternal status, our salvation and eternal life is determined by our faith and the life hidden in God through Messiah nothing more.

There are crowns of Glory for service, for works. Salvation is not a reward or something earned. It is a gift through faith. Those who are saved will be in the Kingdom.

When you get right down to it there will be millions upon millions of people who did not believe in God or have a life in the spirit who will survive the tribulation and the wrath of God, and they are given a place to live in the earthly Kingdom. They will live under the strong hand of God and he will rule over them with a rod of Iron. They will live as mortals and bear children in the Kingdom. But they will not have the privilage of access to the throne of heaven and the city of New Jerusalem the habitation of God. That is reserved for the bride, for those who were born again.

After the tribulation the Lord returns and resurrects the righteous and glorified the living righteous with the immortal body. They are seem as a multitude before the throne of God. Yet after that the survivors of the tribulation who were not sacved before, are told that they are going to be living in the Kingdom of God and their judgment is based upon their selfless acts of charity "for the least of these my brothers."

MT 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: [32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. [34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [35] For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: [36] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. [37] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? [39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? [40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


So the unsaved (The nations, heathens, ethnos) who act righteously, charitably and compassionately are judged by their works, but the faithful are already righteous in the eyes of God through their faith and are glorified (given immortality) when the Lord returns and will rule with him over these masses of mortals.

[mpossoff]

edit

[mpossoff]

The thing you both seem to want to hear is that salvation is a combination of faith AND works. However that is not the Gospel as we were given it. It says that we are saved by faith alone and not of works that any man should boast. However having been saved changes us so that righteous works begin to flow out from us because we know God personally. It changes us and we begin to produce fruit for God. Not to nail down our salvation but just the natural result of knowing God.

Charles that contradictory from what you said:

Being a Christian sort of makes you lawless, in that you are not obeying God's law. But that does not necessarily make you an extortioner, a whoremonger, or a murderer, or a sexual pervert. Many in the Church do not even realize they are living outside of God's law. They think they are doing exactly what God requires of them, because that is what they have been told since they were first conscious of who God is.

The thing you both seem to want to hear is that salvation is a combination of faith AND works. However that is not the Gospel as we were given it. It says that we are saved by faith alone and not of works that any man should boast. However having been saved changes us so that righteous works begin to flow out from us because we know God personally. It changes us and we begin to produce fruit for God. Not to nail down our salvation but just the natural result of knowing God.

Charles there is a difference between obedience and works. Obedience is also our part of our relationship.

I think that reading these verses shows us that lawlesness is not just a failure at keeping Sabbath correctly or not wearing tzitzi. (to make an example) It seems to be a deeper matter with more rebellious crimes most of which are causing harm to others or idolatry. I think that men who strive for righteousness or men who perceive themselves as righteous would judge others more harshly than God will. I think there is more mercy in God than what is in men.

I'm not referring to about keeping the Sabbath correctly. Because I believe we all don't. I'm referring to those that keep it whether they keep it correctly or not.

I think that men who strive for righteousness or men who perceive themselves as righteous would judge others more harshly than God will. I think there is more mercy in God than what is in men.

It depends. God said to keep the Sabbath. Aren't we able to judge based on God's laws?

These who were performing miracles in the name of the Lord, you say they were spirit filled. I am not convinced. Because the works are not generated from their own righteouness but rather by the power of the name of Yeshua and his desire to lead men to salvation. One does not have to be saved or spirit filled to direct others to salvation. Th etestimony of anyone who proclaims that Yeshua is Messiah can be used by God to win souls. Even the fakey TV preachers with all their bad theology can point to th eLord and cause people to seek out salvation for themselves. Do you remember there was a man who was not saved and who was speaking about the Lord and casting out demons in the name of Jesus? Was this man saved? Was he in a living relationship with God through Messiah? There is no evidence he was. He only evoked the power of the name.

Right it was from the power of Yeshua that one then and today is able to cast out demons and perform miracles.

If those people were cating out demons and performing miracles in His name and it was from the power of Yeshua why does our Lord say: Depart from me you workers of iniquity?

I thought when one is saved the Holy Spirit falls upon them?

Maybe they aren't saved. Because obedience NOT works plays a factor.

This is my question.

So the unsaved (The nations, heathens, ethnos) who act righteously, charitably and compassionately are judged by their works, but the faithful are already righteous in the eyes of God through their faith and are glorified (given immortality) when the Lord returns and will rule with him over these masses of mortals.

Let's get back to those that perfromed miracles and cast out demons in His Name.

Our Lord passed judgement already. Although these people did all this in His Name Yeshua said "depart from me you workers of iniquity".

Were these people deceived that they had the Holy Spirit and were casting out devils and miracles by another spirit?

I thought if you had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are already righteous in the eyes of God through their faith?

Marc

[Charles YTK]

Marc,

I don't know how to make it any clearer. Yes we are to be obedient. Obedient to the leading of the spirit who teaches us the law according to Messiah, which is written on our hearts.

It's like this, when you drive down the road and you see someone and God nudges you in your spirit to stop and pick them up and then he nudges you again to take them somewhere or to take them to a place to eat. And anoher day you see someone and the spirit says, stay away from that one. Can't find that in Torah, but the Spirit is current and living now in our age in us and leading us to do work for God.

I have been in situations where there was no money to buy groceries. And no one knew it but my wife and yet God placed it on someones heart to place money (once $200.00) in an unmarked envelope in our mailbox and we were able to have food for the month. The lord blessed us greatly through someone elses love and obedience. This is not from Torah, it is the Spirit in us. That is the obedience we need to have. He wants to use us to be a blessing to one another.

Give and it shall be given to you (a Kingdom principle) good measure pressed down and shaken together will MEN give unto your boosom. God doesn't usually make what you need suddenly appear out of thin-air. He lays it on the hearts of another to give you what you need. And then it is your turn to be the giver.

So yes obedience is important. But when I give or when I obey, I get blessed too.

Paul said that he desired to be obedient in all things but his flesh was constantly warring against him such that the very thing he hated was the thing he ended up doing. This is our flesh nature and it is tough to beat. But God knows this and gives us grace. As Paul said, in his heart, or spirit he desire to do the right thing, but in his flesh he sees something else happening another law at work which was sin and death. God deals with this by condemming the sin of disobedience in the flesh so that we can live in the spirit. Our bodies shall die or be changed if we are alive when he comes. In either case the old flesh nature is going to pay the price of its sins. But the spirit has eternal life. And because of our faith it will live on with God rather than separated from God.

In the case of those who were casting out demons and working miracles in his name, he says depart from me. First off we have to keep in mind that it was a parable, a lesson and not a real situation and judgement. It was a warning to those who thought that their salvation was guaranteed because of their being Jews or perhaps because they were Christians of some denomination (his immediate audience was Jews and this was mostly directed toward their salvation through ethnicity) But these who are sure of their eternal status are living lawlessly. The word in the Greek is Anomia, without the law. Is it possible that Jews who were given the law were not living by the law? Certainly. And in particular the Pharisees were casting out demons, but these in the parable were doing so in the name of Yeshua, so we can summize that he was talking about his own followers in a future time ate his return. Could there be such people? Sure watch TV tomorrow and you will have many choices to view, men who live in sin and preach Jesus and cast out demons and perform miraculas healings. Will they be in the kingdom? Probably not. Because they are not really in a living relationship with God. He did not know them. A lot of people think they know God and say they hear his voice, but they are really only hearing their own voices and believe things that at really contrary to the scriptures and the words of God.

I agree we have to be obedient to God. We will not be in the Kingdom of God in the areas of New Jerusalem and before the throne unless we are righteous and obedient. But others who are not even believers will have a fresh start in the millenial earthly kingdom under Messiah. It is these who will go up to Jerusalem to learn his ways and to worship him during the Millennial Kingdom. Those who are saved before the second coming will rule with him, be teachers and give council to those mortals living in the Kingdom.

RO 16:[12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. [13] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. [14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. [15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. [16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? [17] But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. [18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. [19] I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. [20] For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. [21] What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. [22] But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. [23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


There are what you might call restricted areas in the Kingdom. The habitation of God in New Jerusalem is filled with the light of Messiah himself and is only accessable by those who were faithful and obedient in life. The earth outside of New Jerusalem will be part of the Kingdom too and be under the reign of Messiah. And it says those who do not obey he will smash them to powder with his staff. He will rule over them with a rod of Iron. These are not the saints, not the faithful. Just good people. These will in the end produce a huge harvest for God and also by the end of the Millennial reign a small rebellion as well. Because they are flesh. But they will live in a Kingdom free of pollution, and corruption and sickness. They will live greatly extended lives like it was before the flood. As it says if a man should die at 100 years old people will say how strange, he was only a child in age. He must have been under a curse. There will be peace in all the land even with the animal kingdom as it says, a child will lie down on the hole of a poisonous snake and not fear. a man will be able to sleep in the forest and not fear. The lion will lie down with the lamb. And their swords make into pruning hooks. All these great blessings will fall on people who didn't even know God, but were not his enemies either. They have found grace and will come to love the lord. Zechariah says that the survivors of those nations who sent their armies to destory Jerusalem will survive and will go up to Jerusalem each year to worship Their God at the feast of Sukkot. What a generous forgiving and grace giving God we serve, that even those who did nothing to deserve it, will inherit the Kingdom prepared even for them since the foundations of the earth.

[mpossoff]

I don't know how to make it any clearer. Yes we are to be obedient. Obedient to the leading of the spirit who teaches us the law according to Messiah, which is written on our hearts.

It's like this, when you drive down the road and you see someone and God nudges you in your spirit to stop and pick them up and then he nudges you again to take them somewhere or to take them to a place to eat. And anoher day you see someone and the spirit says, stay away from that one. Can't find that in Torah, but the Spirit is current and living now in our age in us and leading us to do work for God.

Then what about those people who aren't keeping the Commandments of Yeshua?

They say that the commandments are abolished and yet say they are saved.

What is the Spirit that is telling them that the commands of Yeshua are abolished? Certaintly not the Holy Spirit.

With that being said is it possible to have deceiving spirits and the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of us?

I'm not referring to the Spirit in your above example.

I'm referring to the spirit that tells one that the Torah of Yeshua is abolished.

Even today there are those that cast out demons in His Name. What if these people are teaching that the Torah of Yeshua is abolished?

Did they take a gift from God and mess it up?

If Kingdom living is about how we live now, what are we saying to our christian brother and sisters? If Kingdom living is about living the Torah of Yeshua what is that saying?

Will people that are lawless when transformed into their new bodies say: "Ooops! I'm keeping the Sabbath and eating kosher, keeping the feast days, why didn't I do that in my immortal body? Boy I missed it" This is an alagory I'm using.

Do you believe that there will be least and greater in the Kingdom?

Marc

[Charles YTK]

Then what about those people who aren't keeping the Commandments of Yeshua?

They say that the commandments are abolished and yet say they are saved.

People rely too much on their ministers instead of reading for themselves and testing what the preacher says. Still it is the shepherd who mislead them that bear the greater responsibility. We are warned by Paul not to be teachers unless we are sure of what we teach because we will bear the responsibilty for it.



What is the Spirit that is telling them that the commands of Yeshua are abolished? Certaintly not the Holy Spirit.

False teachers and false doctrine. The ministers who teach this bear the responsibility.

With that being said is it possible to have deceiving spirits and the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of us?
We can have whomever we invite. If we allow a spirit of deception to set up a tent in our heart, it will stay until we kick it out.

I'm not referring to the Spirit in your above example.

I'm referring to the spirit that tells one that the Torah of Yeshua is abolished.

This comes from false doctrine taught by men who tried to interpret the scriptires outside of their Hebraic and historical context. After 20 years or less it becomes holy script to these people and then they can not get free from it, at least not very easily. I have spoken to many Christians who know the truth about the false doctrine they hold, but they are unable now to free themselves from the tradition. It become a keystone in their belief. To remove it (change) threatens all of thier faith.

Even today there are those that cast out demons in His Name. What if these people are teaching that the Torah of Yeshua is abolished?

Yes this is happening. And because of the miracles they are believed on their theology as well. Again this is going to weigh more on the preachers shoulders than the congregants who believed them. They were duped. God knows this.

Did they take a gift from God and mess it up? It would seem so to me.

If Kingdom living is about how we live now, what are we saying to our christian brother and sisters? If Kingdom living is about living the Torah of Yeshua what is that saying? It gives a mixed message.

James 1:[5] If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. [6] But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. [7] For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. [8] A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

The spirit shows us. This is the gift of descernment of spirits. Back in the 70's a went to some friends house and they were watching Jim Baker and his wife on TV and they were all excited and said they were sending him money to build some ministry. I had never heard of the man before this day. I watched for just a few minutes and then I was given discenment and I told them, this man is a false teacher and a fake, have nothing to fo with him. They were a little upset and began to defend him. I simply said, the Lord bristled my spirit and told me that this couple were deceivers and will fall under his punishment. It was not until two years later that the scandle broke, Jim was prosecuted and went to prison. The Lord knows the hearts of men.

Will people that are lawless when transformed into their new bodies say: "Ooops! I'm keeping the Sabbath and eating kosher, keeping the feast days, why didn't I do that in my immortal body? Boy I missed it" This is an alagory I'm using.

We will all look back at our sins and mourn and weep over them. God is gracious but we must face our sins even if we have been forgiven. Look at our Rabbinical Jewish brothers who will look upon him who they have pierced and shall mourn as for an only son. They might be saved in the end finding God's mercy, but there will be tears and remorse for all sin. After that time I believe our sins will be washed from our memory. God says that he will hide them behind his back, which implies that even he will not see them after that.

Do you believe that there will be least and greater in the Kingdom?

Yes. Yeshua said it is so. Both the great and the least are in the kingdom. Because this is based on the gift of salvation through faith in God's Messiah. One had honor from his obedience and the other dishonor for his lack of obedience. This is was what I said before, salvation is a matter of faith, and works determine our reward, or status in the Kingdom. Our behavior is the outgrowth or effect of knowing God.

Matt 5: [19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1 Cor 3: [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Rev 22: [12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

1 Cor 9: [24] Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. [25] And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. [26] I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: [27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

[visionary]

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Bottom line... do you please God?

[mpossoff]

People rely too much on their ministers instead of reading for themselves and testing what the preacher says. Still it is the shepherd who mislead them that bear the greater responsibility. We are warned by Paul not to be teachers unless we are sure of what we teach because we will bear the responsibilty for it.





False teachers and false doctrine. The ministers who teach this bear the responsibility.


We can have whomever we invite. If we allow a spirit of deception to set up a tent in our heart, it will stay until we kick it out.



This comes from false doctrine taught by men who tried to interpret the scriptires outside of their Hebraic and historical context. After 20 years or less it becomes holy script to these people and then they can not get free from it, at least not very easily. I have spoken to many Christians who know the truth about the false doctrine they hold, but they are unable now to free themselves from the tradition. It become a keystone in their belief. To remove it (change) threatens all of thier faith.



Yes this is happening. And because of the miracles they are believed on their theology as well. Again this is going to weigh more on the preachers shoulders than the congregants who believed them. They were duped. God knows this.

It would seem so to me.

It gives a mixed message.

James 1:[5] If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. [6] But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. [7] For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. [8] A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

The spirit shows us. This is the gift of descernment of spirits. Back in the 70's a went to some friends house and they were watching Jim Baker and his wife on TV and they were all excited and said they were sending him money to build some ministry. I had never heard of the man before this day. I watched for just a few minutes and then I was given discenment and I told them, this man is a false teacher and a fake, have nothing to fo with him. They were a little upset and began to defend him. I simply said, the Lord bristled my spirit and told me that this couple were deceivers and will fall under his punishment. It was not until two years later that the scandle broke, Jim was prosecuted and went to prison. The Lord knows the hearts of men.



We will all look back at our sins and mourn and weep over them. God is gracious but we must face our sins even if we have been forgiven. Look at our Rabbinical Jewish brothers who will look upon him who they have pierced and shall mourn as for an only son. They might be saved in the end finding God's mercy, but there will be tears and remorse for all sin. After that time I believe our sins will be washed from our memory. God says that he will hide them behind his back, which implies that even he will not see them after that.



Yes. Yeshua said it is so. Both the great and the least are in the kingdom. Because this is based on the gift of salvation through faith in God's Messiah. One had honor from his obedience and the other dishonor for his lack of obedience. This is was what I said before, salvation is a matter of faith, and works determine our reward, or status in the Kingdom. Our behavior is the outgrowth or effect of knowing God.

Matt 5: [19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1 Cor 3: [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Rev 22: [12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

1 Cor 9: [24] Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. [25] And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. [26] I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: [27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Unfortunatley when we cast in terms of "heaven" or "being saved" we are putting our eyes far too low.

It is "Yeshua, or without Yeshua." Living Torah is "dancing" with the Almighty. It is about RELATIONSHIP.

With that being said it looks like those that are saved, although they will be in the Kingdom, won't be with Him. "Depart from me...." doesn't mean you will 'fry' forever. I believe it means you can't spend eternity with Me.

Now we all fall short but I believe as a Messianic community we need to let our brothers and sisters know this.

I don't know about you I want to dance with Yeshua for eternity. I want some of those rewards. How about you?

I forget where the scripture is but Yeshua says(unquote) "There will knashing of teeth.....". This could mean "Man I wish I would haven't have been lawless and kept the Torah of Yeshua, notw it's too late, I could be sitting at the banquet table for eternity with Moses, David, Elijah and most importantley our Master". Those that knash their teeth will be outside looking in, but will still be in the 'commonwealth'.

Those outsode looking in will be saved but in their mortal lives but their eyes too low by saying "I'm saved and I'm going to Heaven".

What scriptures could we use to point this out to people?

Any thoughts?

BTW Charles even though people have been taught by false teachers about the Torah of Yeshua, how much do you think they will heald responsibile for listening to false doctrine? After all they have had the oracles of God and didn't take it upon their self to be Bereans.


Marc

[chunkofcoal]

Right it was from the power of Yeshua that one then and today is able to cast out demons and perform miracles.

If those people were cating out demons and performing miracles in His name and it was from the power of Yeshua why does our Lord say: Depart from me you workers of iniquity?

I thought when one is saved the Holy Spirit falls upon them?

Maybe they aren't saved. Because obedience NOT works plays a factor.

This is my question.



Let's get back to those that perfromed miracles and cast out demons in His Name.

Our Lord passed judgement already. Although these people did all this in His Name Yeshua said "depart from me you workers of iniquity".

Were these people deceived that they had the Holy Spirit and were casting out devils and miracles by another spirit?

I thought if you had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit [/color][/size][/font]are already righteous in the eyes of God through their faith?

Marc












Hope you don't mind me poking my nose into this conversation. :)
You're talking about this passage -

Mat 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Paul teaches -

Eph 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

A couple of points - the people mentioned to Yeshua what they'd been doing - they were basically making a "boast."
But when you read what Paul teaches you see that some do "good works which God hath before ordained"

If it is by "good works which God hath before ordained" then it is by election - by God's choice and His workings, not by ours.


People can't take something to themselves - we are taught that in several places -
Hebrew 5:1-6, John 3:22-36 or the incident with Korah in Numbers 16 for just a couple of examples.

I'm also thinking that passage is also connected to this -

1Co 13:1-3 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. (2) And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. (3) And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

It sounds to me like you can understand things and do things, but have no love in your heart. :(

[chunkofcoal]

I posted a link to this article in another place, but you might enjoy this, too. It's about Malchut and the Kingdom Within.

http://www.aish.com/spirituality/kabbala101/Kabbalah_23_-_Malchut_The_Kingdom_Within.asp

Food for thought. :)

[Cheriann]

Charles wrote:
People rely too much on their ministers instead of reading for themselves and testing what the preacher says. Still it is the shepherd who mislead them that bear the greater responsibility. We are warned by Paul not to be teachers unless we are sure of what we teach because we will bear the responsibilty for it.
My mother and I were just talking about this. She was saying that Christians wouldn't be condemned for not observing the feasts and holidays including the Sabbath because it's what they were taught.
I stated that may have been true in the days when the Bible wasn't available and people couldn't read it for themselves. But I don't see how that could be possible today, when most Christians own 3-5 Bibles and can investigate the truth for themselves, and aren't we actually told to test things by the Word to begin with?
I think many Christians today do believe that they are forgiven and saved no matter what, and that they can live anyway they wish. Many point to the thief on the cross who repented right before death and was told he would be in Heaven with Y'shua.They also use the "what I don't want to do, that I do. what I do want to do,that I don't do" to justify every whim. Kinda like "see if he had touble what chance do I have?" And I think they miss the mark, because it seems that they use it as an excuse to not even try.
I understand that there is nothing I can do to earn salvation, that I was bought at a price of Jesus hung on a tree, and that my life is not my own. If I'm obiedent to His Word and commandments it's because I'm His, and He says to be faithful and follow His commandments.
Do I understand them or the reasons behind them, not always, but does it matter? No, not really. Do I have to agree with them, not at all. Do I have to follow them, absolutley!!! Why? 'Cause G-d said so.
Kinda like a Nike commercial "Just do it"
Cheriann

[mpossoff]

I posted a link to this article in another place, but you might enjoy this, too. It's about Malchut and the Kingdom Within.

http://www.aish.com/spirituality/kabbala101/Kabbalah_23_-_Malchut_The_Kingdom_Within.asp

Food for thought. :)

Great food for thought!

Fascinating way to explain it.

Marc

[visionary]

For every choice we make to not sin, we have saved our savior a stripe on his back. Have mercy and stop hurting Him. Do it not for yourselves but for Him.

[mpossoff]

Charles you and I seem to be on the same page.

This is what I came up with.

Comments?

When we cast in terms of "heaven" or "hell" we are putting our eyes far too low. It is Yeshua, or without Yeshua." Living Torah is "dancing" with Yeshua. It is about RELATIONSHIP.

What is being saved mean?

"I'm saved and I'm going to heaven"?

If that's the thought we are putting our eyes, minds and Spirit too low.

When you think 'Hellenistically' or Greek that's what we have been taught..."I'm saved and I'm going to heaven" or "If we are truly IN CHRIST then we are already where He is at"

Not according to Yeshua. Just because you are saved doesn't mean you will spend eternity with Him. Notice I said with Him.

You might be saved but there is also the possibility of one looking from the outside in, in the Kingdom.

"Depart from me you workers of iniquity...."

"Knashing of teeth"

These don't imply that someone is going to 'fry' for eternity.

What He means depart from me is "get away you can't spend eternity with me". But it doesn't mean you will 'fry' forever.

Here's an alagory:

We're at the banquest table with Yeshua. David, Moses, Elijah, Abraham and other saints are eating with us. There will those that will be looking in on the banquet and they will be 'knashing their teeth" because they will be saying to themselves "Man, I could be eating at the banquet table but now it's too late, I'm a worker of iniquity(lawlessness). Wish I would have known when I was in my mortal body and in the physical world."

As you can see those looking in aren't being 'fried' they are saved but when they were their earthly bodies they set their minds, hearts far too low by saying "I'm saved and going to heaven".

Now the question is those that were lawless... Who will be held responsible? The ones that taught lawlessness? The ones that listened because they believed the pastor and preacher?

I am going to do some study on that.

Marc

[visionary]

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. When I read this scripture I picture a hiearchy of sort. Mt 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. So what level must one reach? Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven So what is necessary?? Mt 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. So explain this riddle if you can...Mt 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Up til the time of John there was non greater than John, and yet even he is considered bottom of the totum pole. Mt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.I believe the clue is in the seed. Mt 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: If we do not become like little children which soak up the evironment around them without hesitation, soaking up the truth, seeking it, searching for it, with all earnestness, then we are not open like good soil for the good seed. It is the seed of heaven in us that grows until the harvest. It is the fruit of the seed fully matured that gets harvested. The fruit of the spirit transends the foundation into a new life that emulated the seed.

[mpossoff]

edit

[mpossoff]

Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven So what level must one reach?

You know some of us have knocked the Pharisee's including myself.

Yeshua isn't knocking them here. In fact it appears He's put an extremely high measure by saying shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees

I don't know about the scribes but I do know the Pharisee's were strict in the law, setting aside the extra stuff they added on the written.

So to try to exceed the righteousness of the Pharisee's? High measure.

Mt 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. So explain this riddle if you can...

I think we have to read the preceding verses to get the context:

11 “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Bap