Judge not, lest ye be judged...

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

Hello all...:)

I was wanting to comment about this in another thread but would have been told I was off-topic so I thought we could move that conversation here...

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

At the very least...... :sigh:

Truthfully, some of the most judgmental peeps are the ones who do not use the Scripture and cry out all day long in their high pitched PC voices, "thou shall not judge". But they can't see it for the board in their own eye. They love that Scripture, but know not the meaning of it.

:amen: :amen: :amen: :amen:
If I had a nickel for every time I have seen that verse misused on this forum I wouldn't have an unemployment problem.

...

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

My question is...what do you think this scripture is referring to?

Luke 6:36-38

Judging Others
36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

And this one...

Matthew 7

Judging Others

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. 6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

My take on it is this...

Jesus was talking to the Pharisees right? To me what He was talking about was not pointing the finger at other people for the sins they committ. Because if your pointing a finger, there are four fingers pointing back at you. :)

I've seen alot of finger pointing here at CF...seems people don't know what it is anymore. :sigh:

I've also done my fair share of finger pointing, and I'm sorry if I have to any of you. I really, really try not to...but sometimes I'm not letting the Holy Spirit lead me as I should.

[Miss Shelby]

Yes, I like you, think he meant do not judge hypocritically. And a lot of times you won't even know you're (collectively) doing it.

I can remember, for instance, before I had children I had all kinds of high ideals about how I would raise them and things I would and would not do. I judged some of my friends because I thought they were doing it all wrong. Lo and behold now that I am a mother, I am doing exactly what they did and then some. Judge not, lest ye shall be judged.

Speaking from a spiritual standpoint and with regards to sin. I think we have the theoretical guidelines at our disposal to enable us to call something a sin and should do so. That's not going to stop the sinner in that sin refusing to see it as sin as not taking that as judgement. And oh well that's just too bad. I see my sins for what they are. Sins. And I try my best to admit when I am wrong.

[CyberPaladin]

The problem is the verse is usually used very poorly. It usually used by people more to try to get a cheap shot in on someone's character in rather hateful rants than as warning about overlooking your own faults.

[Voegelin]

It means those who oppose Christianity or oppose Christian orthodoxy should be able to do and say anything without Christians commenting on their actions and words.

At least that is what it means to most of those who quote it.

Odd how it is usually asked as a question..."Doesn't the Bible say....?"

Always wondered about that. Obvious the questioners know the answer. The Bible does say that.

Among other things.

[Macrina]

This is an interesting topic.

I have sometimes seen those verses used in a way that basically condemns any disagreement as "judging." For example, if I state that homosexual acts are sinful, I am accused of "judging" homosexual people. But the prohibition of judgment doesn't mean we check our discernment at the door and fail to evaluate behavior according to God's standard of righteousness. If I were saying that an individual was a bad person, not a Christian, going to Hell, etc., then that would be judging. If I tried to act like I was better/less sinful than the other person, that would be judging, too. But not just disagreement.

At the same time, I have also seen the error go the other way. I have seen people disregard these verses when I think it would have been better to consider them more closely. I especially see this on CF, probably because the anonymity of the internet releases inhibitions: People will come across with a tone that virtually everyone else considers judgmental, and then they cry "foul" when these verses are cited. There seems to be some sort of assumption that if they are right, then they can't be judgmental, so it doesn't apply to them. I think an equal error, and the one about which we conservatives need to be more cautious, is erring on the side of using a judgmental tone.

[Willowbrook]

Jesus was talking to the Pharisees right? To me what He was talking about was not pointing the finger at other people for the sins they committ. Because if your pointing a finger, there are four fingers pointing back at you. :)

I've wondered about this too, and come to the conclusion that if we 'have the logs out of our own eyes', as Jesus taught~ we will see clearly to help those with specks. There's nothing like experiencing God's compassionate, merciful grace, and operating from that knowledge in helping others. Love would certainly be the key.

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

So do you guys see it more as an attitude than an accusation?

[~free~]

To me these verses mean that before we point out anyone else's sins, we must first take a look at our own. We have no right to call judgement on another's actions, God deals with them. But at the same time, how are we to share Truth if we can't point out sinful behaviour? Is it up to us to determine that it's sinful? I'm strong in my beliefs but I know they're not the same as everyone elses...which I guess is what debates are for.....ok, now I'm confused too :sigh:

[Miss Shelby]

To me these verses mean that before we point out anyone else's sins, we must first take a look at our own. We have no right to call judgement on another's actions, God deals with them. But at the same time, how are we to share Truth if we can't point out sinful behaviour? Is it up to us to determine that it's sinful? I'm strong in my beliefs but I know they're not the same as everyone elses...which I guess is what debates are for.....ok, now I'm confused too :sigh:
I think it's possible and completely acceptable to say objectively that something IS a sin. This can be done very well without pointing at someone and saying--'you are a dirty sinner'--

Problem is, try getting people living in that sin to see it that way. That is where the problem arises.

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

I think it has more to do with the attitude that we speak this truth in...

"A soft answer turns away wrath." :)

But then again...sometimes it doesn't matter how it's presented. :doh:

[Miss Shelby]

I think it has more to do with the attitude that we speak this truth in...

"A soft answer turns away wrath." :)

If you're speaking almost exclusively of internet communication, I think it's difficult to be able to tell what a soft answer is, unless the person answering is going above and beyond the pale to mushy up their posts.

Plenty of people speak in matter of fact tones, do not use a lot of smilies and mean nothing rude by what they say. If they were speaking the same thing face to face it would probably sound a lot different than how people 'hear' it when they read it on the web. And I think a lot of times these types of posts are construed as harsh.

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

If you're speaking almost exclusively of internet communication, I think it's difficult to be able to tell what a soft answer is, unless the person answering is going above and beyond the pale to mushy up their posts.

Plenty of people speak in matter of fact tones, do not use a lot of smilies and mean nothing rude by what they say. If they were speaking the same thing face to face it would probably sound a lot different than how people 'hear' it when they read it on the web. And I think a lot of times these types of posts are construed as harsh.
That's probably true...but the smilies do help. :)

But I wasn't just talking about on the internet...

[~free~]

I think it's possible and completely acceptable to say objectively that something IS a sin. This can be done very well without pointing at someone and saying--'you are a dirty sinner'--

Problem is, try getting people living in that sin to see it that way. That is where the problem arises.Yes, that's true....and that's where Scripture is misused.

I think it has more to do with the attitude that we speak this truth in...

"A soft answer turns away wrath." :)

But then again...sometimes it doesn't matter how it's presented. :doh:I think, being on the net, it's more difficult to communicate. I learned in my counselling course that what is understood within human communication is taken from 3 components of communication...them being, spoken (or typed ;)) word, 3%, body posture, gestures, facial expression, 38% and voice tone and inflection, 55%. I guess that would explain why what we say (type) is often taken the wrong way.

[Voegelin]

Often the verse is thrown out before anyone has condemned anything.

Those who want approval for their actions or of their ideology are vocal in preemptive condemnation of Christian morality. They write books about it. So no matter how Christians address sin, they will be attacked.

It is naive to believe that only if it were phrased better, the reaction would not be what it is. The media isn't the message, the message is the message and the message is what many don't like.

[CyberPaladin]

Part of the problem also Free2be is we rarely give people a chance to explain themselves we read and if take it the wrong rather than asking person the person calmly we fire back with a balant insult. Then we all know what can happen from there it usually just degrades down into a flame war. Personaly I think if we all were to maybe pm a little more and not go at people with quite so much hositelty and try instead to get them to explain what they mean when you think they're being mean or judgemental it would prevent alot of fights..

[~free~]

Often the verse is throw out before anyone has condemned anything.

Those who want approval for their actions or of their ideology are vocal in preemptive condemnation of Christian morality. They write books about it. So no matter how Christians address sin, they will be attacked.

It is naive to believe that only if it were phrased better, the reaction would not be what it is. The media isn't the message, the message is the message and the message is what many don't like.Yeah....I'm naive. :sigh: Call me Pollyanna. ^_^

Part of the problem also Free2be is we rarely give people a chance to explain themselves we read and if take it the wrong rather than asking person the person calmly we fire back with a balant insult. Then we all know what can happen from there it usually just degrades down into a flame war. Personaly I think if we all were to maybe pm a little more and not go at people with quite so much hositelty and try instead to get them to explain what they mean when you think they're being mean or judgemental it would prevent alot of fights..
I think that would be the most Christ-like approach to take. :)

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

Good stuff here folks...:thumbsup: Thank you! :)

[Voegelin]

Yeah....I'm naive. :sigh: Call me Pollyanna. ^_^


Maybe "optimistic" or "hopeful" is the word I should have used instead of naive.

Guess my real point however is that those feel bad because they think they (or other Christians) are the problem because they do not deliver the message as charitably or as well as they could can't win. No matter what one says or doesn't say or how one says it, the attacks will come.

In con talk, the tactic is called a reversal.

[IamRedeemed]

I agree with most all of these examples, there were others, sorry I couldn't add them all. But I would like to point out some additional Scriptures, and then give an example of unrighteous vs righteous judgment and the difference between judging a matter or an ideology, especially when it affects all people, is against Scripture and is done and proclaimed in the name of the Lord vs condemning a person to hell. Also, no Jesus was not speaking to Pharisees as far as I can recall, in Matthew 7. He was speaking to a general population of the community which consisted of His disciples as well as onlookers, and those who wanted to hear what He had to say. Pharisees may have been present, but His message was general. It was part of His beatitudes (Sermon on the Mount). I would also like to point out that Jesus did not have any problem with what the Pharisees preached necessarily, what He hated was that they didn't DO what they preached. Jesus said, "do what they say, just don't do what they do." They would have stoned David for eating the shewbread in other words. They wanted to prosecute Jesus for healing on the Sabbath. Most of the time people are accusing others of being Pharisees, it is because they openly proclaim proudly their sin and attribute it as blessings from God despite that the Bible clearly speaks otherwise, and most of the people that do that, here at CF in my experience, also do not consider the Bible the Word of God, which means they do not even have an absolute truth in which to test the teachings/doctrines and or spirits they believe they are hearing from that speak contrary to the Word of God and most often those Scriptures are used out of context in attempt to sequester the Word of God from being spoken against their unBiblical proclamations, blasphemies and heresies.

No one here knows how anyone lives outside of this forum UNLESS they proclaim their private sinful lives as some do and call their sin, blessings of God. (you will see a lot of evidence of this regarding Christian heterosexual fornication and homosexual fornication, especially.) So, most people are not even equipped with enough information, to even make that proclamation against another that they are a "pharisee" especially when it is because the accused has refuted their false doctrine with the Word of God, that they didn't like and THAT is exactly what Jesus is talking about in Luke and in Matthew, unrighteously judging matters and condemning people to hell in either case. Pharisees would pray in the open to be seen of men, they gave their alms where people could see them and praise them, they
had an appearance of "godliness" but denied the power thereof, they had religion, (they wore the badge, people saw them going to church on Sunday totin' their Bible) but they were no different than the heathen. They lived lives of sin, and had hearts of stone, necks of steel and knew not the Lord.

John 7:24 Jesus uses the same word for "judge" as he does in the Scriptures pointed out by the OP and He says here
"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
If you see a woman in some scanty clothing and high heels come into the grocery store where you are, and you judge that she must be a prostitute or a whore, you have judged unrighteously, as you don't know. Her house and all that she has may have burned down, and that may be all that she had to put on to go and get some milk for her baby.
Now if she walks up to your husband and starts trying to seduce him and starts calling off a price list, for sexual services, it is safe to conclude the woman is a prostitute. (that is not the same though as condemning her to hell) See the difference?
Take a look at this verse that Jesus said to His own brothers who at that time, also did not believe He was the Christ.
John 7:7
The world cannot hate you; but me it hates, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

Jesus wasn't killed because He was a flower child and loved by all. Those who love their sin, more than they love the Lord, hate those who speak His truth and they deny His Word as even coming from Him.

Jesus said in Matthew 10:21-28
"And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.

But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

The Word of God does not unite flesh and spirit, but rather divides them.
Jesus said in Matthew 10:34-41, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and follows after me, is not worthy of me.
He that finds his life shall lose it: and he that loses his life for my sake shall find it.

He that receives you receives me, and he that receives me receives him that sent me. He that receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward."

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy 4:3-5
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.




Yes, I like you, think he meant do not judge hypocritically. And a lot of times you won't even know you're (collectively) doing it.

I can remember, for instance, before I had children I had all kinds of high ideals about how I would raise them and things I would and would not do. I judged some of my friends because I thought they were doing it all wrong. Lo and behold now that I am a mother, I am doing exactly what they did and then some. Judge not, lest ye shall be judged.

Speaking from a spiritual standpoint and with regards to sin. I think we have the theoretical guidelines at our disposal to enable us to call something a sin and should do so. That's not going to stop the sinner in that sin refusing to see it as sin as not taking that as judgement. And oh well that's just too bad. I see my sins for what they are. Sins. And I try my best to admit when I am wrong.

The problem is the verse is usually used very poorly. It usually used by people more to try to get a cheap shot in on someone's character in rather hateful rants than as warning about overlooking your own faults.

It means those who oppose Christianity or oppose Christian orthodoxy should be able to do and say anything without Christians commenting on their actions and words.

At least that is what it means to most of those who quote it.

Odd how it is usually asked as a question..."Doesn't the Bible say....?"

Always wondered about that. Obvious the questioners know the answer. The Bible does say that.

Among other things.

This is an interesting topic.

I have sometimes seen those verses used in a way that basically condemns any disagreement as "judging." For example, if I state that homosexual acts are sinful, I am accused of "judging" homosexual people. But the prohibition of judgment doesn't mean we check our discernment at the door and fail to evaluate behavior according to God's standard of righteousness. If I were saying that an individual was a bad person, not a Christian, going to Hell, etc., then that would be judging. If I tried to act like I was better/less sinful than the other person, that would be judging, too. But not just disagreement.

At the same time, I have also seen the error go the other way. I have seen people disregard these verses when I think it would have been better to consider them more closely. I especially see this on CF, probably because the anonymity of the internet releases inhibitions: People will come across with a tone that virtually everyone else considers judgmental, and then they cry "foul" when these verses are cited. There seems to be some sort of assumption that if they are right, then they can't be judgmental, so it doesn't apply to them. I think an equal error, and the one about which we conservatives need to be more cautious, is erring on the side of using a judgmental tone.

[CyberPaladin]

The other thing I have learned is if find your self in flame war with a woman never apologize they will figure out some how to take offense to your apology and rip you apart for it.The best thing to do is just walk away or run.;) ;) ;)

[Lisa0315]

I think it's possible and completely acceptable to say objectively that something IS a sin. This can be done very well without pointing at someone and saying--'you are a dirty sinner'--

Problem is, try getting people living in that sin to see it that way. That is where the problem arises.

I agree Miss Shelby. I think it is about relationships.

From a stranger who says, "That is a sin!", you will get indignation, but from a friend who has demonstrated their love for you, it is completely different.

That is why I support allowing athiests free access to this site. To me, Satan employs all kinds of strategy to use against us. I think it is high time we employ some strategy of our own. We should say, "C'mon in. Let's get to know you." Ask lots of questions, and form relationships. This is the first layer of brick to build a foundation on which the gospel can be preached.

Lisa

[IamRedeemed]

Well, if you don't mind my saying so, I feel that this remark is not only a far cry from true, but I believe it is quite chauvinistic and prejudicial as well. Quite a large brush you are tarring there with mate. In fact, I believe women are more apt to receive an apology than a man is apt to give one. LOL (just kidding)

The other thing I have learned is if find your self in flame war with a woman never apologize they will figure out some how to take offense to your apology and rip you apart for it.The best thing to do is just walk away or run.;) ;) ;)

[CyberPaladin]

Well, if you don't mind my saying so, I feel that this remark is not only a far cry from true, but I believe it is quite chauvinistic and prejudicial as well. Quite a large brush you are tarring there with mate. In fact, I believe women are more apt to receive an apology than a man is apt to give one. LOL (just kidding)
You had me going there for second.:doh: